Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Iggy on May 03, 2018, 08:04:09 PM
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So, I am unclear on this.
Will Hyperion eventually support the use of the Sonnet crescendo 7200 when installed on PCI enhanced legacy Amigas?
Sonnet cards range as high as 800 MHz using G4 processors.
Were these boards to be reverse engineered, there are still compatible low wattage G4 processor available that run at 800 MHz and 1 GHz that could be utilized.
This option would bring the cpu speeds up to levels comparable with lower end AmigaOnes.
With full legacy chipset support, PCI expansion, and high speed PPC processors, legacy hardware would be able to run far more Amiga software than any NG platform, at speeds that would make running everything from OS3.1 to OS4.1 practical.
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So, I am unclear on this.
Will Hyperion eventually support the use of the Sonnet crescendo 7200 when installed on PCI enhanced legacy Amigas?
Sonnet cards range as high as 800 MHz using G4 processors.
Were these boards to be reverse engineered, there are still compatible low wattage G4 processor available that run at 800 MHz and 1 GHz that could be utilized.
This option would bring the cpu speeds up to levels comparable with lower end AmigaOnes.
With full legacy chipset support, PCI expansion, and high speed PPC processors, legacy hardware would be able to run far more Amiga software than any NG platform, at speeds that would make running everything from OS3.1 to OS4.1 practical.
I wouldnt count on it or Elbox would of moved forward with the Shark plan, which is this same card.
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So, I am unclear on this.
Will Hyperion eventually support the use of the Sonnet crescendo 7200 when installed on PCI enhanced legacy Amigas?
Sonnet cards range as high as 800 MHz using G4 processors.
Were these boards to be reverse engineered, there are still compatible low wattage G4 processor available that run at 800 MHz and 1 GHz that could be utilized.
This option would bring the cpu speeds up to levels comparable with lower end AmigaOnes.
With full legacy chipset support, PCI expansion, and high speed PPC processors, legacy hardware would be able to run far more Amiga software than any NG platform, at speeds that would make running everything from OS3.1 to OS4.1 practical.
We would have a R200 driver with OS4.1 ;)
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As I understand it, some significant changes would be needed to the OS4 kernel to support the Sonnet 7200 (or Rapture card) because the G3/G4 processor on the Mediator side cannot directly access the Amiga bus. Therefore the Sonnet working on OS4 is not "in two weeks" but closer to never...
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I wouldnt count on it or Elbox would of moved forward with the Shark plan, which is this same card.
The first consideration for the Sonnet Crescendo was long long before the Shark.
Let's just say that there were disagreements on how to proceed and leave it at that.
Years later inquiries were sent out as to existing stock and condition of same.
Non-starter. There are people here who can supply the exact figures.
#6
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So the only utility is in legacy applications using Warp3D?
That's a lot of expense and effort to run a very small number of programs.
That knocks the Sonnet out of consideration for me.
In order for a PPC to access the chipset, I'd assume it needs to be incorporated into the processor card, right?
Reverse engineering the Crescendo is a whole lot less attractive to me at this point.
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Well, it all depends what you're interested in. Quake 3? Exult? Lots of SDL conversions being worked on.
The G3/4 can access the Amiga chipset eg Paula at least indirectly via the 680x0. I don't know the exact mechanism. But you need a graphics card to use the mediator in the first place so RTG is going to be the choice over AGA...
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So, I am unclear on this.
Will Hyperion eventually support the use of the Sonnet crescendo 7200 when installed on PCI enhanced legacy Amigas?
Considering there is basically ZERO availability of Sonnet's why would someone put time/money into this type of development?
I would not mind it in my tower but...
Get yourself... A1222 when (if) it will be out.
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So the only utility is in legacy applications using Warp3D?
Surely you mean WarpOS?
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The first consideration for the Sonnet Crescendo was long long before the Shark.
Let's just say that there were disagreements on how to proceed and leave it at that.
Years later inquiries were sent out as to existing stock and condition of same.
Non-starter. There are people here who can supply the exact figures.
#6
The low wattage version of the cpu used (in 800 and 1000MHz speeds) is available in adequate quantities.
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Surely you mean WarpOS?
Actually, I was thinking in terms of MorphOS Goa, but yes I should have referred to WarpOS.
Considering there is basically ZERO availability of Sonnet's why would someone put time/money into this type of development?
I would not mind it in my tower but...
Get yourself... A1222 when (if) it will be out.
Tabor? Obviously you're not familiar with my posts.
I will NEVER own one of those boards.
I'd consider spend the money on an X5000, but a system based on the crippled P1022?
Why would I want a system with a 32 bit cpu and a non-stand fpu, when the last two AmigaOne systems have had 64 bit cpus with standard fpus?
Because it costs less? So do lime green polyester pants from Kmart, hey they might give you two for the cost of one (item that is much less ugly).
But if cost was a primary issue, I'd stick with the Raspberry Pi 3.
But back to the topic, if legacy PPC boards can access the chipset directly and the Sonnet Crescendo can't, then I have no real use for the Sonnet board.
It doesn't appear that we have the talent left in the Amiga community needed to build a new 68K/PPC based processor slot board.
So, my last PPC system may be an X5000 (hopefully an X5000/40 if it gets produced).
Then I'll follow the MorphOS migration to X64, while keep my peripheral vision trained on what hardware comes after Tabor.
I'm actually pretty fond of what we've managed with PPCs, but its probably time to move on.
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Considering there is basically ZERO availability of Sonnet's why would someone put time/money into this type of development?
This is not quite true. They come up from time to time on Amibay, and a number of people have found them by using the Wanted section there. The problem is they are scarce so the price is high. The 'rapture' variant of the sonnet is readily available but again it costs quite a lot. But you are right, sonnet/rapture is a very very niche corner of the Amiga market, so I doubt there'll ever be anything 'official' from the bigger players. Any development will come from the handful of guys you see posting in the big EAB sonnet thread. IMO they're doing brilliantly so far! :)
Here's a list of sonnet/rapture compatible software. It hasn't been updated for a little while but it gives an idea as to why someone might want one.
https://github.com/Sakura-IT/SonnetAmiga/wiki/Compatible-Software-(PowerPC.library-version)
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The Sonnet 'team' are actively working on getting faster G4 PMC cards running, and there is even talk of them producing a bespoke very fast (1Ghz+) card at some point.
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The Sonnet 'team' are actively working on getting faster G4 PMC cards running, and there is even talk of them producing a bespoke very fast (1Ghz+) card at some point.
Well, there are still completely compatible low wattage 1GHz cpus available from NXP.
And reverse engineering the board?
Remove the components and send it to the proper company.
It's doable.
But a board with no direct access to the chipset, where everything native has to be directed by the 68K?
That doesn't seem nearly as useful as a processor slot board.
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I think your best bet would be to ask your questions to Hedeon (the sonnet powerpc.library guy) directly in the EAB sonnet thread.
Regarding other ppc cpus and boards, the team had this to say:
"In theory other PPC boards could be supported, maybe easily, if they have an MPC107 Northbridge (PCI/Memory controller), don't have a flashrom that autoboots the board on their own and aren't hardware forced into "Master" mode. Other MPC107 "clone" or "compatible" controllers might work too, for instance the MPC842x or Harrier controllers, but it hasn't been done yet so "might" work applies."
I have never used AOs4 so I have no idea how it works, but I was under the impression that getting AOs4 to run on sonnet-type processor cards was not an insurmountable problem (just a very difficult one), and it is a low priority for Hedeon at the moment.
Selected quotes from the thread:
"talk of running OS4 is at this moment a pipe dream. There is no work being done in this area."
"Initialising Mediator and Voodoo is a trivial problem (that could be implemented in many different ways - either a binary started from OS3, or a module loaded from Deneb). The real problems are modifications necessary to OS4 kernel and drivers - note that Sonnet CPU can not directly access the Amiga bus, unlike in Phase5 cards. _That_ would be a huge task."
"the Sonnet cannot access the Amiga bus. So if it would ever materialize, you would need some SATA/IDE card to boot from and to connect a mouse, keyboard HDD etc. to as none of the Amiga chipset can be reached."
I am not an expert on this so I don't really know what i'm talking about :) happy to be corrected.
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Thanks for the multiplicity of clarifications gentlemen.
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It seems like an OS4.1 port is completely out of the question. It would be cool though if these cards could be harnessed as coprocessors under OS4.1 Classic, the same way as they are currently under OS3.9 to run specific WarpOS programs.
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It seems like an OS4.1 port is completely out of the question. It would be cool though if these cards could be harnessed as coprocessors under OS4.1 Classic, the same way as they are currently under OS3.9 to run specific WarpOS programs.
Interesting thought. It would be more powerful than a standard 603/604 PPC processor. Without calling it SMP, could two PPC cpus be implemented under OS4? The cpu plugged into the cou slot would obviously have to be the master, but I can't see why some tasks couldn't be farmed out to the G4.
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So, I am unclear on this.
Will Hyperion eventually support the use of the Sonnet crescendo 7200 when installed on PCI enhanced legacy Amigas?
How many customers can possibly use this? 1 or 2? Have you ever seen the correct Sonnet card for sale? I've found a couple mislabelled as this on ebay but were incorrect. Does it make sense to support such a board that effectively no one can run OS4 or even OS3.1 on?
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I have a Sonnet in my A4000D Mediator system and most of the time it isn't stable enough to be useful for anything other than dos based benchmarks. Not worth it yet IMHO.
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My experience with a sonnet seems to be a little different from yours, Jeff. It took quite a lot of effort to get mine stable but it now runs from first boot for hours without a hitch. The issue ive found with sonnet is there is no easy turn-key set up as its dependant on lots of cobbled-together elements.
It needs a working, stable Mediator. It needs a 3.3v-equipped regulator Mediator or a modded sonnet or modded Mediator busboard. It needs a stable p96 environment, a good psu, enough cooling, a working voodoo or Radeon, the correct FPM ram, a workbench that's not full of conflicting patches, the correct ENV settings etc. These are lots of elements that can trip it up so it's difficult to troubleshoot.
Is it worth it? In my opinion, yes, and I think Wrangler would agree, but it's still time and a lot of cash to spend to get WOS stuff running, so I can see why people do not think it's worth the effort. spending $$$ can be difficult to justify sometimes!
I'd love to see AOs4 or iFusion working on sonnet/rapture.
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How many customers can possibly use this? 1 or 2? Have you ever seen the correct Sonnet card for sale? I've found a couple mislabelled as this on ebay but were incorrect. Does it make sense to support such a board that effectively no one can run OS4 or even OS3.1 on?
I've seen a few, but the majority needed to be repaired.
Currently I don't own an Amiga with a PCI expansion bus.
But I'd assume that anyone with a 4000 with a mediator would be a possible candidate, so I'd assume its more than "1 or 2".
Exploring using the card isn't something we can vote on, the team working on it wants to use it, so its getting done.
My basic question was could it be used for something more than WarpOS packages, since there are only a few of those.
Personally, if a new PPC board for legacy Amigas was created, I'd rather have something that fits in the processor slot and has access to the chipset.
An A4000 equipped with a 1GHz G4 would be very competitive with some AmigaOne's and it would be able to run software that hits hardware directly.
Add a mediator and an RTG card and you've got a legacy system that is as powerful as an AmigaOne, but retains register level compatibility.
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I've seen a few, but the majority needed to be repaired.
Currently I don't own an Amiga with a PCI expansion bus.
But I'd assume that anyone with a 4000 with a mediator would be a possible candidate, so I'd assume its more than "1 or 2".
Exploring using the card isn't something we can vote on, the team working on it wants to use it, so its getting done.
My basic question was could it be used for something more than WarpOS packages, since there are only a few of those.
Personally, if a new PPC board for legacy Amigas was created, I'd rather have something that fits in the processor slot and has access to the chipset.
An A4000 equipped with a 1GHz G4 would be very competitive with some AmigaOne's and it would be able to run software that hits hardware directly.
Add a mediator and an RTG card and you've got a legacy system that is as powerful as an AmigaOne, but retains register level compatibility.
The fast access to Voodoo graphics memory would be lost with an A4000 accelerator slot unless someone also built a GREX like replacement PCI busboard.
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The fast access to Voodoo graphics memory would be lost with an A4000 accelerator slot unless someone also built a GREX like replacement PCI busboard.
At which point (PPC-CPU+PCI+access2AmigaMobo) you'd be back at what the Escena-A1 was supposed to be.
Well that was a pointless brainfart 20 years ago........
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Has anyone tried a Sonnet in an Amithlon machine?
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The fast access to Voodoo graphics memory would be lost with an A4000 accelerator slot unless someone also built a GREX like replacement PCI busboard.
Fast? Funny, I never thought of 33 MHz as fast, but I see your point, faster than accessing the PCI bus through some bridge.
And it would be nice to have support for something faster than a Voodoo3.
Would a Voodoo 4 4500 work?
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At which point (PPC-CPU+PCI+access2AmigaMobo) you'd be back at what the Escena-A1 was supposed to be.
Well that was a pointless brainfart 20 years ago........
Can you point me to technical info on that?
It doesn't sound like they had the resources to realize it, but the idea sounds practical.
I wasn't really paying attention to the Amiga community at that point.
All I've heard about that project merely made it sound like a scam, but a "pointless brainfart"?
What seems pointless, is that when you tack a PCI bus onto an Amiga everything is coordinated via a bridge to the much slower native bus.
Why not have a direct PCI connection to the PPC cpu?
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Fast? Funny, I never thought of 33 MHz as fast, but I see your point, faster than accessing the PCI bus through some bridge.
And it would be nice to have support for something faster than a Voodoo3.
Would a Voodoo 4 4500 work?
As I understand it the Sonnet or Rapture can write to the Voodoo or Radeon graphics memory directly bypassing Zorro and Buster, so it is much faster than getting data from the accelerator slot. 33 MHz PCI gets 133MB/s compared to the typical 10-14MB/s Zorro-3 allows, on a good day. I don't know what sort of speed the Sonnet gets but from some of the applications that run at the framerates they run it is at least 30MB/s.
From what I've read on the EAB thread, Voodoo 4 works but the Elbox driver doesn't support Big Endian modes so some applications don't work or have wrong colors.
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I have a Sonnet in my A4000D Mediator system and most of the time it isn't stable enough to be useful for anything other than dos based benchmarks. Not worth it yet IMHO.
I had several issues getting mine stable, initially issues with the mediator itself that elbox fixed, and then issues with warp3d mostly due to bad memory in a voodoo card. Now it is rock solid, not really any issues with the Sonnet itself, or the sonnet project software.
As long as you have the correct pci.library from elbox, powerpc.library from jenkins, and a video card properly installed, the sonnet should work.
I agree the biggest limitation is the number of software titles that can be run.
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As I understand it the Sonnet or Rapture can write to the Voodoo or Radeon graphics memory directly bypassing Zorro and Buster, so it is much faster than getting data from the accelerator slot. 33 MHz PCI gets 133MB/s compared to the typical 10-14MB/s Zorro-3 allows, on a good day. I don't know what sort of speed the Sonnet gets but from some of the applications that run at the framerates they run it is at least 30MB/s.
From what I've read on the EAB thread, Voodoo 4 works but the Elbox driver doesn't support Big Endian modes so some applications don't work or have wrong colors.
I got lucky and got a voodoo 4 at a yard sale (in another thread). I have been using for about a week and it has been working fabulously, not 100% tested yet. The only thing that has color issues (so far) is wipeout's opening 2-D images, but the voodoo 3 also had this same issue.
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Can you point me to technical info on that?
It doesn't sound like they had the resources to realize it, but the idea sounds practical.
I wasn't really paying attention to the Amiga community at that point.
All I've heard about that project merely made it sound like a scam, but a "pointless brainfart"?
What seems pointless, is that when you tack a PCI bus onto an Amiga everything is coordinated via a bridge to the much slower native bus.
Why not have a direct PCI connection to the PPC cpu?
This article translate from French gives a good overview over the project and how things panned out.
http://translate.google.fr/translate?u=http://obligement.free.fr/articles/amigaoneppc1200.php&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8
There are some extra photos on the bottom of this page.
https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Famiga-mania.orgfree.com%2FNoticias%2FAmigaOne%2FAmigaOne.html&edit-text=&act=url
You may have already seen the schematic before on the Phake5 Facebook page.
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This article translate from French gives a good overview over the project and how things panned out.
http://translate.google.fr/translate?u=http://obligement.free.fr/articles/amigaoneppc1200.php&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=fr&ie=UTF-8
There are some extra photos on the bottom of this page.
https://translate.google.co.uk/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Famiga-mania.orgfree.com%2FNoticias%2FAmigaOne%2FAmigaOne.html&edit-text=&act=url
You may have already seen the schematic before on the Phake5 Facebook page.
Interesting, but now I understand Kronos' objections. There is virtually no integration between the legacy system and the PPC side of the system.
At that point, the stand alone AmigaOne or Pegasos makes as much sense.
It almost would have made more sense, if the two were to be integrated, to created a single card legacy system that could be plugged into one of those PCI sockets.
Now, maybe we could examine that comment about running Crescendo cards in an X86/X64 platform. If PPC specific software could be run on a card, and the rest of the OS ported to the X86 ISA we'd have an platform that would allow the use of cheaper, more powerful commodity hardware for newer applications, and still have compatibility with older applications without the necessary complication of emulation.
Better still, one plug in board similar to the Vampire for OS3.X compatibility.
A PPC card for OS4.X or MorphOS compatibility.
All running in an X64 system that could handle the next generation of MorphOS or maybe AmigaOS 5?
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I
At that point, the stand alone AmigaOne or Pegasos makes as much sense.
An A1/Pegasos makes "much sense" the moment you replaced all things Amiga with much more powerful components from 15 years later making the Axx00 an glorified keyboard controller.
(same reason I don't get all the buzz about the Vampire)
Now Phase5PPC+Permedia/PCI does already fall into that category but is acceptable due to being released in a different time.
Bout having a Sonnet-PPC in an MorphOS-NG running x86-64, just start MorphOS3.x in QEMU and be done with it.
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Bout having a Sonnet-PPC in an MorphOS-NG running x86-64, just start MorphOS3.x in QEMU and be done with it.
I'd love to but the MorphOS Team aren't exactly helpful to the QEMU guys in getting it running.
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I've seen a few, but the majority needed to be repaired.
Currently I don't own an Amiga with a PCI expansion bus.
But I'd assume that anyone with a 4000 with a mediator would be a possible candidate, so I'd assume its more than "1 or 2".
Exploring using the card isn't something we can vote on, the team working on it wants to use it, so its getting done.
My basic question was could it be used for something more than WarpOS packages, since there are only a few of those.
Personally, if a new PPC board for legacy Amigas was created, I'd rather have something that fits in the processor slot and has access to the chipset.
An A4000 equipped with a 1GHz G4 would be very competitive with some AmigaOne's and it would be able to run software that hits hardware directly.
Add a mediator and an RTG card and you've got a legacy system that is as powerful as an AmigaOne, but retains register level compatibility.
There could be an option of the A1200 + Mediator + Sonnet or something else as Hedeon allready demo's this combo.
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I'd love to but the MorphOS Team aren't exactly helpful to the QEMU guys in getting it running.
I wasn't implying to run a QEMUed MorphOS under Win/Linux/OSX but using as legacy support in case of an x86-64 native MorphOS-NG.
It's also no secret that at least one developer had MorphOS running in QEMU years ago, but it was decided to not support such things.
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Has anyone tried a Sonnet in an Amithlon machine?
I'm very curious about this as well. Would be very interesting to see the mix of PPC, 68k and x86 running.
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Wouldn't porting OS4's bootloader to WiiU custom firmware be simpler?
https://hackinformer.com/2016/12/12/wiiu-rednand-cfw-tutorial/
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I had several issues getting mine stable, initially issues with the mediator itself that elbox fixed, and then issues with warp3d mostly due to bad memory in a voodoo card. Now it is rock solid, not really any issues with the Sonnet itself, or the sonnet project software.
As long as you have the correct pci.library from elbox, powerpc.library from jenkins, and a video card properly installed, the sonnet should work.
I agree the biggest limitation is the number of software titles that can be run.
If I understand this correctly, Elbox pci.library is needed rather than openpci.library.
So a wrapper would need creating to use a Sonnet in an Amithlon machine?
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An A1/Pegasos makes "much sense" the moment you replaced all things Amiga with much more powerful components from 15 years later making the Axx00 an glorified keyboard controller.
(same reason I don't get all the buzz about the Vampire)
Now Phase5PPC+Permedia/PCI does already fall into that category but is acceptable due to being released in a different time.
Bout having a Sonnet-PPC in an MorphOS-NG running x86-64, just start MorphOS3.x in QEMU and be done with it.
I kind of get Vampire, until you reach Vampire4, where attachment to legacy hardware is redundant as all functionality now resides in the FPGA and it can exist as a stand alone system.
And yes, QEMU is beginning to look like the solution for running current NG software.
Although the first project that intrigues me is the idea of emulating the SAM460 and the X5000 on a PCIe PowerMac G5 11,2.
And I'd assume similar emulations could been done easily on a Power 9 based platform, possible multiple instances of OS', one or more than one type.
How about ALL Amigoid OS running on one platform with plenty of threads to spare.
Since Power 9 has PPC compatibility, our current NG OS' and hardware (outside of AROS) would be easier to emulate and require less cpu power than similar emulation via X64.
We would need something that would run above these emulations, provide a common user interface and a method of compositing the various display windows, and accessing the hypervisor.
Possibly a variant of Linux.
OR Bigfoot, Keiro and a few other talented programmers could expand on Ambient and and an SMP enabled kernel could be provide the core of something beyond MorphOS that manages everything, and provides an environment for 64 bit code with memory protection and all the modern features we are currently missing.
Nothing like that is likely to happen, as we are all mired in this slow death march of evolution that is one step from completely frozen, dragging around the corpse of a legacy API.
But you're right, one system would do.
I guess I'll start exploring the options right now on my X64 hardware and my 11,2 PowerMac.
If the Amiga community can't get its act together on hardware platforms, the rapid advance of platforms outside our community should provide enough power to emulate anything we run within our various camps.
So guys, I'm still focused on that X5000/40. After all, that will run MorphOS, OS4, and Linux.
But, once you all embrace low end hardware like the A1222 (which will only run OS4 and Linux, and then only moderately well), I will hopefully have better hardware, and will be working on a unified emulation of everything you have with a platform that can run that and more.
Good luck with the direction so many of you want to take.
The goal is to pedestrian for me.
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I kind of get Vampire, until you reach Vampire4, where attachment to legacy hardware is redundant as all functionality now resides in the FPGA and it can exist as a stand alone system.
Current Vampire is like getting an Intel i7 onto a board that still has ISA-slots so you can get an CGA and AdLib card into it..........
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I wasn't implying to run a QEMUed MorphOS under Win/Linux/OSX but using as legacy support in case of an x86-64 native MorphOS-NG.
It's also no secret that at least one developer had MorphOS running in QEMU years ago, but it was decided to not support such things.
That was a long time ago. I'm referring to the Hungarian guy who asked for help on his attempt of cloning G4 PowerMac hardware with QEMU not so long ago and got told where to go.
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Wouldn't porting OS4's bootloader to WiiU custom firmware be simpler?
https://hackinformer.com/2016/12/12/wiiu-rednand-cfw-tutorial/
You still trying to flog that dead horse after all these years?
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You still trying to flog that dead horse after all these years?
Does the truth hurt to hear?
I guess I'll have to be content with Linux...
https://gitlab.com/linux-wiiu/linux-wiiu#wii-u-linux
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Does the truth hurt to hear?
I guess I'll have to be content with Linux...
https://gitlab.com/linux-wiiu/linux-wiiu#wii-u-linux
If the OS4, AROS or MorphOS devs were interested in porting to the Wii they'd have already done it.
If you want it so bad then put your money where your mouth is and pay for the development costs.
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Current Vampire is like getting an Intel i7 onto a board that still has ISA-slots so you can get an CGA and AdLib card into it..........
i7? More like Pentium MMX 120 or so.
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If the OS4, AROS or MorphOS devs were interested in porting to the Wii they'd have already done it.
If you want it so bad then put your money where your mouth is and pay for the development costs.
Oh ... are you one of those people that thinks the WiiU is the Wii with a new controller?
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Oh ... are you one of those people that thinks the WiiU is the Wii with a new controller?
Are you going to pay for this port that you so desperately want?
Supply and demand.
There's no demand.
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i7? More like Pentium MMX 120 or so.
Thats not the point.....
..... but still noone sane would pair a Pentium with those cards.
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Oh ... are you one of those people that thinks the WiiU is the Wii with a new controller?
HW wise (and if only one core is used) the WiiU is a silent upgrade MacMini with a fixed (small) SSD size.
Both MorphOS and OS4 (well kinda) have already been ported to those and there isn't a real shortage of that particular HW.
As cool as it might seem, pointless waste of resources.
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Wouldn't porting OS4's bootloader to WiiU custom firmware be simpler?
https://hackinformer.com/2016/12/12/wiiu-rednand-cfw-tutorial/
Hey, 2005 called and wants it's thread back.
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Hey, 2005 called and wants it's thread back.
Thanks Karlos, personally I wanted PS3 support, until I found out how little ram it had. And the Xbox360 also looked interesting, but documentation for the hardware of either wasn't great.
WiiU? Hmm, slower, unexpandable, and my G4 PowerMac is probably faster.
What would be the point?
@ Kronos, X64 Qemu emulation of PPC hardware looks like a winner, and at least we aren't targeting a dying ISA.
I like PPCs, and Power 9 would have been a cool linear upgrade, but following the MorphOS development team's lead on what hardware should receive support has brought me affordable, function hardware from mainstream computing companies.
So I guess I'll stop worrying about brand A, and just stay the course.
Of course, if QEMU emulation of the X5000 becomes a reality on the 11,2 PowerMac, I have a Quad 2.5 GHz unit sitting here waiting.
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If I understand this correctly, Elbox pci.library is needed rather than openpci.library.
So a wrapper would need creating to use a Sonnet in an Amithlon machine?
Yes you are correct,Elbox's pci.library, not openpci.
You could use a wrapper or a different version of the powerpc.library. In theory it could work with the GRex or Prometheus (with the busmastering fix) but this is yet another thread for another time.
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Of course, if QEMU emulation of the X5000 becomes a reality on the 11,2 PowerMac, I have a Quad 2.5 GHz unit sitting here waiting.
Now you are talking! :)
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Now you are talking! :)
That would be ironic, wouldn't it? Emulating a $1700 2018 PPC system with a 2005 system that can be had cheaper and is more powerful.
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Are you going to pay for this port that you so desperately want?
Supply and demand.
There's no demand.
Are you talking to me or the OP? HA!
20 Million WiiU's running a triple-core PPC @ 1.24 Ghz for about $150 or you can spend hundreds of dollars on a card that's not much more powerful than a Gamecube... Makes sense.
By the way, there isn't much in the way of porting needing to be done. Mostly just UBOOT.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_U-Boot
...much like MONA very little work would be required. "Drivers" amount to calling the libraries that already exist within the machine's ROM.
I know Amigans aren't used to getting alot of feature for little money and when you do, you make sure that you complain heavily (ie.. Vampire2)...
You know what I'm wrong. I don't want:
2GB of RAM
Out-of-order execution PowerPC based cores
45 nanometer process technology
IBM silicon on insulator (SOI) technology
Three cores at 1.243125 GHz
Symmetric multiprocessing with MESI/MERSI support
Each core can output up to 4 instructions per clock using superscalar parallelism.
32-bit integer unit
64-bit floating-point (or 2× 32-bit SIMD, often found under the denomination "paired singles")
A total of 3 MB of Level 2 cache in an unusual configuration.[16]
Core 0: 512 KB, core 1: 2 MB, core 2: 512 KB
4 stage pipeline
7 stage pipeline - FP
6 Execution Units per core (18 EUs total)
Die size: 4.74 mm × 5.85 mm = 27.73 mm^2
4 USB ports, 802.11N wifi, bluetooth... dual-layer BluRay drive...
...and I surely don't want a 550Mhz core Radeon Latte GPU...
I don't want any of that for less than $5000!!!!
How dare that be available for <$200!!! What a travesty!
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Are you talking to me or the OP? HA!
20 Million WiiU's running a triple-core PPC @ 1.24 Ghz for about $150 or you can spend hundreds of dollars on a card that's not much more powerful than a Gamecube... Makes sense.
By the way, there isn't much in the way of porting needing to be done. Mostly just UBOOT.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_U-Boot
...much like MONA very little work would be required. "Drivers" amount to calling the libraries that already exist within the machine's ROM.
I know Amigans aren't used to getting alot of feature for little money and when you do, you make sure that you complain heavily (ie.. Vampire2)...
You know what I'm wrong. I don't want:
2GB of RAM
Out-of-order execution PowerPC based cores
45 nanometer process technology
IBM silicon on insulator (SOI) technology
Three cores at 1.243125 GHz
Symmetric multiprocessing with MESI/MERSI support
Each core can output up to 4 instructions per clock using superscalar parallelism.
32-bit integer unit
64-bit floating-point (or 2× 32-bit SIMD, often found under the denomination "paired singles")
A total of 3 MB of Level 2 cache in an unusual configuration.[16]
Core 0: 512 KB, core 1: 2 MB, core 2: 512 KB
4 stage pipeline
7 stage pipeline - FP
6 Execution Units per core (18 EUs total)
Die size: 4.74 mm × 5.85 mm = 27.73 mm^2
4 USB ports, 802.11N wifi, bluetooth... dual-layer BluRay drive...
...and I surely don't want a 550Mhz core Radeon Latte GPU...
I don't want any of that for less than $5000!!!!
How dare that be available for <$200!!! What a travesty!
Still looks dated.
Only a 1.24 GHz cpu that does not appear to be significantly more powerful than NXP's e600 and e500 cored processors (although the L2 cache is interesting), and no NG OS supports SMP, so the core count is irrelevant.
I have been unable to research the fpu, to see if it similar to other PPC floating point units, or if it has AltiVec instructions.
The gpu, while heavily customized, resembles an AMD R700 and from my initial examination appears to only have 32GB of vram.
New video drivers would have to be created for this, as there are significant differences from a standard Radeon gpu.
Customized drivers for sound, networking, and possibly USB would be necessary.
The Blu Ray drive is pointless, as there are no NG drivers for Blu Ray, only DVD.
Oh, and you forgot to mention, its got no hard drive.
It has no expansion slots.
Basically, right now I have a dual cpu G4 PowerMac running at 1.33 GHz, with a VIA Envy24HT sound card, SATA SSD drives, SATA DVD-R drive, a wireless networking card and an R500 video card.
The basic system with a MorphOS license cost me less than $100. And it all works with existing drivers.
If I want to spend something closer to the $200 you're mentioning, I can buy a 2.3 to 2.7 GHz G5 PowerMac, that can take up to 8 GB of memory, comes with interfaces for PATA and SATA, can handle the same R500 based video card, and may soon be able to use an AGP R600 video card.
So no, I don't want to buy a Nintendo game machine. Unless its to play video games on. I already have computers.
And I don't want to see the OS developers I rely on wasting their time porting to said under-powered game machine when there is so much other work that could be done.
So yes...no.
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...much like mona very little work would be required.
no idea how much work went into moana, but it was still 100s of hour away from being a release candidate.
"drivers" amount to calling the libraries that already exist within the machine's rom.
rotflmao!!!!!
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no idea how much work went into moana, but it was still 100s of hour away from being a release candidate.
rotflmao!!!!!
Yes Kronos, I wanted our developers to eat up time supporting something about as powerful as the backup system I bought from redrumloa last year (not)!
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personally I wanted PS3 support, until I found out how little ram it had.
Yes Kronos, I wanted our developers to eat up time supporting something about as powerful as the backup system I bought from redrumloa last year (not)!
That's ironic when the WiiU is 50% more powerful than the PS3 with 4X(or 8X if you exclude video ram) the RAM...
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rotflmao!!!!!
http://wiibrew.org/wiki/IOS
This isn't much different than an Amiga in the sense that some work is off-loaded to "custom chips". An ARM chip handles all external I/O and launches PPC code. The PPC code can then request I/O from the ARM-based microkernel, this way PPC cpu cycles aren't being consumed with low level I/O drivers per se and there is no need to reinvent the wheel. They already exist in the microkernel (IOS).
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That's ironic when the WiiU is 50% more powerful than the PS3 with 4X(or 8X if you exclude video ram) the RAM...
What is ironic is that you would make that claim.
The WiiU does have the advantage of being an out of order processor, but I've thoroughly examined the Cell BE and Xenon (the latter having six threads to you WiiU's three) and the additional clock speed easily makes up for any disadvantages of an in order execution unit.
It took Nintendo an extra generation, and they still fell short, primarily due to all that concern over backward compatibility.
Next thing you know you're going to be repeating that tripe they tried to claim about the WiiU's cpu being somehow related to Watson and other modern IBM endeavors.
Its simple, its pretty much an ordinary 32 bit PPC.
Oh, and about the lack of a storage drive...
Finally, if you haven't got the note, most of the new systems we've adopted are 64bit.
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That's ironic when the WiiU is 50% more powerful than the PS3 with 4X(or 8X if you exclude video ram) the RAM...
What is ironic is that you would make that claim.
The WiiU does have the advantage of being an out of order processor, but I've thoroughly examined the Cell BE and Xenon (the latter having six threads to your WiiU's three) and the additional clock speed easily makes up for any disadvantages of an in order execution unit.
It took Nintendo an extra generation, and they still fell short, primarily due to all that concern over backward compatibility.
Next thing you know you're going to be repeating that tripe they tried to claim about the WiiU's cpu being somehow related to Watson and other modern IBM endeavors.
Its simple, its pretty much a simple 32 bit PPC.
And if you haven't got that note, most of the new systems we've adopted are 64bit.
http://wiibrew.org/wiki/IOS
This isn't much different than an Amiga in the sense that some work is off-loaded to "custom chips". An ARM chip handles all external I/O and launches PPC code. The PPC code can then request I/O from the ARM-based microkernel, this way PPC cpu cycles aren't being consumed with low level I/O drivers per se and there is no need to reinvent the wheel. They already exist in the microkernel (IOS).
Yeah, an ARM processor to offload work from a weak PPC processor, sounds more like the Minimig than the Amiga.
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http://wiibrew.org/wiki/IOS
And at which point does that autotranslate to AmigaDOS compatible filesystems, a graphics subsystem that take calls designed graphics or cybergraphics.library?
Is there an USB stack and does it translate KBD and mouse to something input.device/intuition could understand?
Nah, all it does is what other HW provide with OpenFirmware,UBoot,EFI,etc etc
And you still haven answered why it would be such a good idea if the HW offers no real advantage over already supported and easily available G4 MacMini.
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@lou_dias
Start by porting AROS to it then you will have a case to make for the technical side. Unfortunately porting a commercial OS to a commercial platform is a totally different problem.
Otherwise it's all just wishlisting. Id like OS4 and MorphOS porting to run on my deluxe ten flavour ice cream making machine and its faster than the washing machine.
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Are you talking to me or the OP? HA!
20 Million WiiU's running a triple-core PPC @ 1.24 Ghz for about $150 or you can spend hundreds of dollars on a card that's not much more powerful than a Gamecube... Makes sense.
By the way, there isn't much in the way of porting needing to be done. Mostly just UBOOT.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_U-Boot
...much like MONA very little work would be required. "Drivers" amount to calling the libraries that already exist within the machine's ROM.
I know Amigans aren't used to getting alot of feature for little money and when you do, you make sure that you complain heavily (ie.. Vampire2)...
You know what I'm wrong. I don't want:
2GB of RAM
Out-of-order execution PowerPC based cores
45 nanometer process technology
IBM silicon on insulator (SOI) technology
Three cores at 1.243125 GHz
Symmetric multiprocessing with MESI/MERSI support
Each core can output up to 4 instructions per clock using superscalar parallelism.
32-bit integer unit
64-bit floating-point (or 2× 32-bit SIMD, often found under the denomination "paired singles")
A total of 3 MB of Level 2 cache in an unusual configuration.[16]
Core 0: 512 KB, core 1: 2 MB, core 2: 512 KB
4 stage pipeline
7 stage pipeline - FP
6 Execution Units per core (18 EUs total)
Die size: 4.74 mm × 5.85 mm = 27.73 mm^2
4 USB ports, 802.11N wifi, bluetooth... dual-layer BluRay drive...
...and I surely don't want a 550Mhz core Radeon Latte GPU...
I don't want any of that for less than $5000!!!!
How dare that be available for <$200!!! What a travesty!
I'll ask again.
Are you going to pay for this port that you've been begging for since 2005?
I would say ask for SVN access then port it yourself but it's written in that " inferior" language C and not your beloved Visual Basic so that rules that out.
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Yes Kronos, I wanted our developers to eat up time supporting something about as powerful as the backup system I bought from redrumloa last year (not)!
Some history for you Jim. Though I warn you it's a long and harrowing insight into insanity. Highly amusing in places though lol
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=13903
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Dear God, it really is 2005 again. Make it stop.
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@lou_dias
Start by porting AROS to it then you will have a case to make for the technical side. Unfortunately porting a commercial OS to a commercial platform is a totally different problem.
Otherwise it's all just wishlisting. Id like OS4 and MorphOS porting to run on my deluxe ten flavour ice cream making machine and its faster than the washing machine.
You could port both in a weekend if you weren't so obsessed with that inferior language C.
May I suggest FoxPro?
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Dear God, it really is 2005 again. Make it stop.
Even Mike Bouma is back, saw him spouting his sycophantic drivel on MorphOS threads over at osnews recently.
Groundhog day!
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Ookay, enough with the glue sniffing now.
Love it, LOVE IT!
I remember the insanity.
I even exchanged messages with the director at IBM that was in charge of Cell development back then.
Gamecube, huh? Gamecube, Wii, WiiU,,,great googly moogly.
I still remember IBM's response "We prefer to work with qualified partners".
As in, no you can't buy Cell BE processors. :laughing:
That freakin' does it. I'm ready to move to commodity X64 hardware now.
Check please!
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@Iggy
Is your Qemu better then Amigaforever, does it support Composition/RadeonHD ??
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@Iggy
Is your Qemu better then Amigaforever, does it support Composition/RadeonHD ??
I wasn't really thinking about OS4, Benny. And I haven't used AmigaForever in awhile, but I'm sure it runs OS4 better at this point then anything that has been done thus far with QEMU.
That being said, I'd rather emulate an X5000 or a SAM460 than a 603 or 604 PPC equipped legacy Amiga.
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I wasn't really thinking about OS4, Benny. And I haven't used AmigaForevdr in awhile, but I'm sure it runs OS4 better at this point then anything that has been done thus far with QEMU.
AmigaForever (aka UAE) does PPC support by utilizing QEMU...... ;)
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AmigaForever (aka UAE) does PPC support by utilizing QEMU...... ;)
Cool. If UAE is using QEMU, we have a way of integrating the work on more modern hardware with Amiga emulation.
Cloanto with its AmigaForever, a commercial product derived from UAE, might be hesitant to go that far.
We'll have to see.
Either way, it's X86/X64, not a WiiU. ;-)
Edit - Then again, it could also be PPC on an 11,2 PowerMac or a Power9 system.
You wouldn't run X5000 emulation on an X5000 (and SAM emulation on an X5000 would be silly).
It could open up some possibilities for X1000 owners, but it would be pointless on lower end AmigaOne systems as they wouldn't have the cpu power (come to think of it, neither would a WiiU). ;-)
2nd edit - One step further, if a PCIe G5 could run this type of emulation, what prevents an AGP G5 from doing the same?
The AGP G5 wouldn't have PCIe slots, but we are talking about emulating the hardware, not acting as some kind of translation or wrapper for the platform.
3rd edit - Actually, if you were running Linux and utilizing the extra cores of an X5000/30 or X5000/40, then emulation of multiple PPC sessions might make sense.
Could be a way to use the extra core on an X1000 as well.
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What is ironic is that you would make that claim.
The WiiU does have the advantage of being an out of order processor, but I've thoroughly examined the Cell BE and Xenon (the latter having six threads to you WiiU's three) and the additional clock speed easily makes up for any disadvantages of an in order execution unit.
It took Nintendo an extra generation, and they still fell short, primarily due to all that concern over backward compatibility.
Next thing you know you're going to be repeating that tripe they tried to claim about the WiiU's cpu being somehow related to Watson and other modern IBM endeavors.
Its simple, its pretty much an ordinary 32 bit PPC.
Oh, and about the lack of a storage drive...
Finally, if you haven't got the note, most of the new systems we've adopted are 64bit.
You should get your facts straight. Each core had 6 execution units.
https://fail0verflow.com/media/files/ppc_750cl.pdf
What the 360 cpu had was 3.2Ghz clockspeed. For the same clockspeed, it was an inferior cpu to the WiiU's Expresso cpu.
Regardless, my post was about comparing a WiiU to this Cressendo card which is just the cpu of a Gamecube (single core and about 500Mhz).
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You should get your facts straight. Each core had 6 execution units.
https://fail0verflow.com/media/files/ppc_750cl.pdf
What the 360 cpu had was 3.2Ghz clockspeed. For the same clockspeed, it was an inferior cpu to the WiiU's Expresso cpu.
Regardless, my post was about comparing a WiiU to this Cressendo card which is just the cpu of a Gamecube (single core and about 500Mhz).
Oh, my bad,thanks for the documentation (if you're even pointing to the correct product), that processor would only be capable of handling two simultaneous threads, not three.
So now the count would be WiiU two, XBOX360 six. And still 1.26 GHz vs. 3.2.
So again, outside of an out of order execution unit and a fair amount of RAM (but limited VRAM), and no hard drive for storage, the WiiU still loses.
And comparing a legacy Amiga equipped with a third party PCI expansion bus and a PPC accelerator card intended for a 68K Mac with a later PPC game machine is an apples and oranges comparison.
So my comparison of the WiiU to an XBOX360 is certainly more valid.
Then there is the consideration that any re-engineered G4 PCI accelerator card would be likely to use an 800 or 1000 MHz cpu (the fastest compatible version from Sonnet ran at 800 MHz). Almost as fast as the WiiU's cpu, but tied to an expansion bus you can add cards to.
Look, it's 2018, not 2005. The WiiU is only available used (unless you know of a NOS inventory somewhere), and oddly enough the G4 cpus are still available, if not recommended for new projects.
Also, if I were to support porting to used hardware, I'd be rooting for the 11,2 G5 PowerMac which is quite a bit faster than a WiiU, expandable, and appears the be able to handle video cards up to at least those based on AMD's GCN Gen1 gpus.
Aiming lower with targets like the WiiU for the used market or Tabor for the new market doesn't make sense to me.
In the long run I'd be unhappy with the compromises presented by those platforms.
BUT, since I have some G5 support under MorphOS, and I am willing to pay the price for an X5000 (which supports both NG PPC OS'), I'll leave the arguments about the low end hardware to you and the A1222 supporters.
The A1222 supporters that WILL be getting support for that platform.
And you, one of the remaining WiiU supporters that WON'T be getting support for your platform of choice.
Either way, I'm happy, and you're still pounding sand.
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OK, I decided to investigate further.
The processor is a tri-core, and some of the design elements (like embedded dram) are rather advanced, while others hearken back to pre-Power4 cpus (so its a weird mix of technologies).
With dual integer execution units, that does provide for six threads. Yay, parity! When you consider the clock speed differences, that is about as good as it gets. Not superiority.
The cpu compromises are really due to the nature of the platform, low clock speeds because the WiiU only needs a slight bump up from Wii specs. With the coprocessing power added by the ARM cpu and the gpu its a more than adequate upgrade to the Wii.
The optical drive is specific to the WiiU, and according to Wikipedia former Nintendo president Satoru Iwata stated, "Wii U does not have DVD or Blu-ray playback capabilities".
So, Blu-ray...no.
Hard drives must be interfaced via USB.
But, WiiUs can be had refurbished from Walmart for $99.95, although the reliability and quality of the refurbished units is variable according to reviews (better buy that extended 2 year warranty for $16).
All in all, still a very unusual proprietary piece of hardware that would require a lot of work to support while provide no real improvement over our existing G4 systems (under a non-SMP enabled OS) let alone a G5 level machine.
And comparable to even Tabor? If two drivers are holding up its release, just imagine the work needed to support all these relatively undocumented components.
To please how many? A handful of people?
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Oh, my bad,thanks for the documentation (if you're even pointing to the correct product), that processor would only be capable of handling two simultaneous threads, not three.
So now the count would be WiiU two, XBOX360 six. And still 1.26 GHz vs. 3.2.
So again, outside of an out of order execution unit and a fair amount of RAM (but limited VRAM), and no hard drive for storage, the WiiU still loses.
And comparing a legacy Amiga equipped with a third party PCI expansion bus and a PPC accelerator card intended for a 68K Mac with a later PPC game machine is an apples and oranges comparison.
So my comparison of the WiiU to an XBOX360 is certainly more valid.
Then there is the consideration that any re-engineered G4 PCI accelerator card would be likely to use an 800 or 1000 MHz cpu (the fastest compatible version from Sonnet ran at 800 MHz). Almost as fast as the WiiU's cpu, but tied to an expansion bus you can add cards to.
Look, it's 2018, not 2005. The WiiU is only available used (unless you know of a NOS inventory somewhere), and oddly enough the G4 cpus are still available, if not recommended for new projects.
Also, if I were to support porting to used hardware, I'd be rooting for the 11,2 G5 PowerMac which is quite a bit faster than a WiiU, expandable, and appears the be able to handle video cards up to at least those based on AMD's GCN Gen1 gpus.
Aiming lower with targets like the WiiU for the used market or Tabor for the new market doesn't make sense to me.
In the long run I'd be unhappy with the compromises presented by those platforms.
BUT, since I have some G5 support under MorphOS, and I am willing to pay the price for an X5000 (which supports both NG PPC OS'), I'll leave the arguments about the low end hardware to you and the A1222 supporters.
The A1222 supporters that WILL be getting support for that platform.
And you, one of the remaining WiiU supporters that WON'T be getting support for your platform of choice.
Either way, I'm happy, and you're still pounding sand.
Here's the bottom line. If I can't install a PPC OS into hardware I already own, I'm not installing it. There is NO PPC Amiga market worth speaking of. An A1222-based system will still cost $1000. That's a pretty expensive office decoration. If it was smaller, it would be a paperweight. People spend less on their phones ... but their phones are more powerful and get used everyday.
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Here's the bottom line. If I can't install a PPC OS into hardware I already own, I'm not installing it. There is NO PPC Amiga market worth speaking of. An A1222-based system will still cost $1000. That's a pretty expensive office decoration. If it was smaller, it would be a paperweight. People spend less on their phones ... but their phones are more powerful and get used everyday.
Understandable lou,
On this I'm with you, it's the primary reason I started using MorphOS, so that I could use a cheap PowerMac G4.
After I'd used it for awhile, I came to appreciated the OS for some of the features it has that legacy Amiga OS doesn't and some things that OS4 does differently.
In fact, now that I'm firmly camped out on this side of the divide, I am willing to plunk down fairly big money on an X5000 that I can triple boot.
And yeah, by the time you flesh out Tabor, the price gap closes.
One thing I will say for the WiiU is it ought to make a nice Linux system. The only problem being that it's a big endian cpu (like all AmigaOne cpus) and support for that is waining.
Karlos was right though, the first place to start with that platform would be a hosted version of AROS.
And at $99.95 I might have to get one anyway. I had a Wii, but it was stolen. And the evolution from GameCube to WiiU is kind of facinating.
Also, this hardware started out with an ArtX gpu, and I always liked that company, once they became part of ATI they helped design the R300 Radeon family.
Pity they didn't keep evolving this platform, Power is now bi-endian and a faster 64 bit Wii derivative would have been interesting.
The frustrating parts about the optical drives of both the Wii and the WiiU comes from Nintendo's unwillingness to pay licensing fees for DVD and Blu-ray technology.
Obviously the Wii can play DVD's, it just requires codecs to do it and the software keys.
Like Tabor, the WiiU would require some additional hardware, but let's discount the mouse, keyboard and display as both systems would need that. The WiiU does not require a case, DVD drive or PSU (it has those), or a video card.
A hard drive would require a USB adapter, but those are cheap (under $10), and I have 2.5" sata hard drives all over my work bench from dead laptops.
Might want to upgrade the solid state storage from 8GB, but that's optional.
SO, in my case, about $110. Hmm...I can do that out of curiousity.
And I'd be able to play the Wii titles that didn't get stolen with the system.
OK, I think I'll follow your lead that far this Summer.
So, currently, what is the best Linux distro?
And Karlos, or anybody for that matter, what is the current state of AROS hosted if you want to run it on a PPC Linux system ?
Edit - Hmm, I looked at the last revision available from the main site and it looked pretty dated. Modified version of GCC 3.4.3 required? Could an OS that runs on the WiiU handle something that old?
Edit 2 - Actually, it does look doable. First things first. Gotta buy the WiiU and get it running a recent Linux distro to check it out.
Lou, benny, thanks.
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https://gitlab.com/linux-wiiu/linux-wiiu
Not sure if you'll find this useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usD0EPAmicA
I owned a Raspberry 3b for a while. Amazing device for $35. I looking into installing AROS on it but I was told I'd have to make a donation to get access to a build of it for ARM... This is not how you grow a market. :/
If MOS or Hyperion had any brains, they'd port to that, 3D-print a nice case, etc... and call it the future...
Meanwhile the 3b+ was recently released (still $35):
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-3-model-bplus-sale-now-35/
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https://gitlab.com/linux-wiiu/linux-wiiu
Not sure if you'll find this useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usD0EPAmicA
I owned a Raspberry 3b for a while. Amazing device for $35. I looking into installing AROS on it but I was told I'd have to make a donation to get access to a build of it for ARM... This is not how you grow a market. :/
If MOS or Hyperion had any brains, they'd port to that, 3D-print a nice case, etc... and call it the future...
Meanwhile the 3b+ was recently released (still $35):
https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/raspberry-pi-3-model-bplus-sale-now-35/
When an ISA shift was first proposed, I was one of the people promoting ARM for MorphOS.
But the development team went with X64.
Not quite as cheap, but still commodity hardware.
The Pi 3B+ is pretty impressive for a low cost device.
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When an ISA shift was first proposed, I was one of the people promoting ARM for MorphOS.
But the development team went with X64.
Not quite as cheap, but still commodity hardware.
The Pi 3B+ is pretty impressive for a low cost device.
The 3B was my web server and I had a hard time installing a mail server on it so I went with a Win10 machine running hMailserver. That's when I looked into AROS on the Pi. Apparently the Efika [ARM] "port" is closely guarded.
...in fact - if I didn't know any better, I'd say the Efika is running an older version of the Pi...
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...Apparently the Efika [ARM] "port" is closely guarded...
Oh the joys of a not completely open project, eh?
The PPC port appears to be dated too.
But even with these challenges, it still isn't as insurmountable as beating your head against a wall over OS4 or MorphOS support.
I took a look at the Linux port you pointed to, its actually a good candidate for AROS, maybe better than as a Linux platform alone.
Currently it only supports one core, and it looks like that might be single threaded (although I'm unsure about that).
Its video driver is only a framebuffer at this point (no acceleration), but that could change, and its a start (that's usually the first step with any OS4 or MorphOS video driver).
And the fpu of the WiiU's cpu actually looks pretty good (better than Tabor's anyway).
I'm buying a white WiiU as soon as I finish paying off my tuition charges for this Spring.
Then I'll try to get that to run the Linux distro, and after get is setup and running GCC 3.4.3.
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I'm buying a white WiiU as soon as I finish paying off my tuition charges for this Spring.
You are aware that white ones only have 8GB internal storage compared to the 32GB of the black "deluxe" version?
No idea wether that matters for Linux or if it runs 100% from SD card anyways.
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You are aware that white ones only have 8GB internal storage compared to the 32GB of the black "deluxe" version?
No idea wether that matters for Linux or if it runs 100% from SD card anyways.
Yeah, but that can be expanded, and I haven't been offered a "deluxe" version.
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You are aware that white ones only have 8GB internal storage compared to the 32GB of the black "deluxe" version?
No idea wether that matters for Linux or if it runs 100% from SD card anyways.
I was able to find a 512GB SDHC card for $40 on ebay. It totally came from Taiwan but hey, it's working just fine in my Nintendo Switch...which is also hackable and running Linux... :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBCkpEdvqDo
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I was able to find a 512GB SDHC card for $40 on ebay. It totally came from Taiwan but hey, it's working just fine in my Nintendo Switch...which is also hackable and running Linux... :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBCkpEdvqDo
Cool, and on the last response to Kronos, I double checked and I can get a black "deluxe" unit.
But the white 8GB unit is $99.95 refurbished, while the black "deluxe" 32 GB unit is $259.95 refurbished with Mario Cart 8.
I don't need the game (and could obtain it cheaper anyway), and the memory can be expanded via a card or USB.
Besides, I just like the look of the white unit.
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Oh the joys of a not completely open project, eh?
The PPC port appears to be dated too.
But even with these challenges, it still isn't as insurmountable as beating your head against a wall over OS4 or MorphOS support.
I took a look at the Linux port you pointed to, its actually a good candidate for AROS, maybe better than as a Linux platform alone.
Currently it only supports one core, and it looks like that might be single threaded (although I'm unsure about that).
Its video driver is only a framebuffer at this point (no acceleration), but that could change, and its a start (that's usually the first step with any OS4 or MorphOS video driver).
And the fpu of the WiiU's cpu actually looks pretty good (better than Tabor's anyway).
I'm buying a white WiiU as soon as I finish paying off my tuition charges for this Spring.
Then I'll try to get that to run the Linux distro, and after get is setup and running GCC 3.4.3.
One of the WiiU cores has 2MB of cache, the other two have 512k each (P1022 has 256k per core). I believe the core with 2MB cache is used to synchronize the cache between all 3 cores... It'll be one of those learn as you go things...
Since the clock speed is software-selectable, if you wanna take it apart and give it a better cooler, you may be able to get it to run much faster. It already does this when going to vWii mode (Wii emulation)...though in the other direction...however I believe the bus speed is increased slightly in vWii mode.
An olde article: https://fail0verflow.com/blog/2013/espresso/
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-wii-u-graphics-power-finally-revealed
https://wiki.gbatemp.net/wiki/List_of_WiiU_homebrew_applications
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Where did you hear you need to make a donation to get access to ARM builds of AROS?
This idea is absolutely bizarre and completely incorrect.
How did you even come to this baffling conclusion, or who told you and how did they come up with this creative idea?
Want to download AROS for ARM? Simple, go to aros.org and download the latest nightly ARM build. It's as easy as that. No compiling needed, no money needed, just download from the site.
Far from important, but Im somewhat curious where all this garbage misinformation comes from. It's clear as day what the truth is. You just need to check the website.
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Where did you hear you need to make a donation to get access to ARM builds of AROS?
This idea is absolutely bizarre and completely incorrect.
How did you even come to this baffling conclusion, or who told you and how did they come up with this creative idea?
Want to download AROS for ARM? Simple, go to aros.org and download the latest nightly ARM build. It's as easy as that. No compiling needed, no money needed, just download from the site.
Far from important, but Im somewhat curious where all this garbage misinformation comes from. It's clear as day what the truth is. You just need to check the website.
To be fair to Lou, there only appears to be a Linux hosted armhf download available on the arose website, not the native Pi version.
Though I suspect he's referring to Pascal's Aeros distro for Pi here.
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Wrong thread doh!
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Where did you hear you need to make a donation to get access to ARM builds of AROS?
This idea is absolutely bizarre and completely incorrect.
How did you even come to this baffling conclusion, or who told you and how did they come up with this creative idea?
Want to download AROS for ARM? Simple, go to aros.org and download the latest nightly ARM build. It's as easy as that. No compiling needed, no money needed, just download from the site.
Far from important, but Im somewhat curious where all this garbage misinformation comes from. It's clear as day what the truth is. You just need to check the website.
Gee! No compiling need needed, as long as you use the target platform.
Hallelujah.
In the meanwhile, there are builds on some platforms that require a donation to obtain the latest version.
And other builds that while listed as maintained appear to have not been updated for months (or in a few cases years).
BUT, a rabid fanboy has to label an inquiry "garbage", rather than civilly offer assistance.
Way to go fishy.
Your "charm" does wonders toward promoting the adoption of the OS.
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http://www.aros.org/nightly.php
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Gee! No compiling need needed, as long as you use the target platform.
Well, duh, that's how software works, or do you expect software to magically appear for platforms that aren't targeted?
In the meanwhile, there are builds on some platforms that require a donation to obtain the latest version.
Again, duh, as this is not true, and you are talking about a certain distribution, not AROS itself. Surprisingly, companies also require you to pay up to buy their Linux distributions, can you imagine.
And other builds that while listed as maintained appear to have not been updated for months (or in a few cases years).
Before going in rampage with nonsense, you should educate yourself about the project.
BUT, a rabid fanboy has to label an inquiry "garbage", rather than civilly offer assistance.
Way to go fishy.
Your "charm" does wonders toward promoting the adoption of the OS.
AROS has little use for users, it's targeting developers for progress. People who do little other than download and whine about it are rightfully ignored. You can earn your right to whine and complain by donating to the mentioned distro, and then get support.
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@iggy
What do yo even think you're talking about there?
Any chance you could be more vague or obtuse?
Pointing out innaccuracies makes me a "fanboi" does it?
Nothing I said was wrong. It was said in a completely nonchalant manner.
You're a very weird duck.
You're also very wrong.
But as anyone who has been around for more than a few weeks knows you have very little to say, so your response is expected.
Now how about you go entertain yourself with delusions elsewhere?
I have zero interest in them.
Well apart from how sad they make you appear. That part is entertaining.
So many claims of "my friends at", or, "I spoke to the people at",..... it's freaking hilarious by now.
Moreso when the people you claim to know are actually mocking you when they read your claims (and they do).
Moderator Edit strong opinions and diagreements are one thing but personal attacks are a violation of the ToS.
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Come on that's a personal attack, which borders on abuse.
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http://www.aros.org/nightly.php
Only Linux hosted for armhf there Kolla, no Pi native build.
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Come on that's a personal attack, which borders on abuse.
I'm not concerned over childish behavior, kolla and fishy have been rabid fanatics for awhile and when you question their pet project they just get pissy.
I've been using computers since the SWTPC 6800 SS-50 system was introduced, worked with a company that built its own 68000 and 68020 systems up until the '90s, and currently work with friends developing boards that use 6809, 68000, and FPGA components.
Amiga hobbyists hardly concern me, as there's a large percentage of eccentric people in that community.
In the meanwhile, I think lou's discussion has brought up a couple of good ideas.
I'll have to look into the native Pi version of AROS, and a Linux hosted version of AROS for the WiiU ought to be possible.
On the PPC idea, I suppose I could contact Staff Verhagen, if he's still developing. He intermittently get discouraged at the lack of consistent momentum that has always plagued AROS.
But what I won't do is take the negative input from heavy biased hobbyists to heart. Since I'm absolutely sure I have more experience and education than both of them combined.
Lou.... let's see what we can get done.
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On the PPC idea, I suppose I could contact Staff Verhagen, if he's still developing. He intermittently get discouraged at the lack of consistent momentum that has always plagued AROS.
I'm currently not doing AROS development but because of the reason you mention here. My interest has just moved to other things, like developing ASICs.
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Only Linux hosted for armhf there Kolla, no Pi native build.
Hosted is just as native as non-hosted, but that is beside the point here, it was this hosted build that claimed to require donations.
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I'm not concerned over childish behavior, kolla and fishy have been rabid fanatics for awhile and when you question their pet project they just get pissy.
I am a rabid AROS fanatic now? Wow! :)
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Hosted is just as native as non-hosted, but that is beside the point here, it was this hosted build that claimed to require donations.
Running it hosted is not the same as running it on bare metal. There's always a performance hit.
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After my checking PM's on another forum, I believe I was lookng for an ARM port and was referred to
https://aeros-os.org/styled-11/index.html
This really wasn't meant to start another battle. As a casual user, I just wanted to try it out and that's what I was pointed at by a user in a private message.
When I post, I talk generally. People really jump too much to argue over specific details. Well, that's the internet for you I guess...
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It was about 2 years ago in 2016. Like I meantioned before it was for the EFIKA port...which looks like an older version of the PI 3B just from looking at specs...
That's AEROS not AROS.
A commercial distro running on top of Linux.
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That's AEROS not AROS.
A commercial distro running on top of Linux.
Yes, I corrected myself and edited my post after checking PM's...
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If you really want OS4.1 on your classic Amiga inside Tower, you should buy yourself A1222 (if ever!) and use a KVM switch :). Way better performance and most likely it actually CAN happen "in near future".
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If you really want OS4.1 on your classic Amiga inside Tower, you should buy yourself A1222 (if ever!) and use a KVM switch :). Way better performance and most likely it actually CAN happen "in near future".
Just two more weeks! (TM)
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I'm currently not doing AROS development but because of the reason you mention here. My interest has just moved to other things, like developing ASICs.
Sorry Staf, I should not have spoken for you. As to your current interest, I can understand it.
Most of the projects I'm involved with have either CPLD or FPGA components to reduce parts count and provide glue circuitry.
It won't be long before ASIC can be created in relativity low volume affordably.
The last time I'd exchanged messages with you, you still dabbled in development.
Things change, but the AROS community lost some real talent there.
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I am a rabid AROS fanatic now? Wow! :)
You're a rabid something, I just didn't post a more exact word.
Edit - Eh, that's a childish comment in itself, fug it, let's get back to the topic at hand.
Besides, childish or not, I got to hear from my favorite (former) AROS programmer, and the conversation is for the most part interesting.
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Running it hosted is not the same as running it on bare metal. There's always a performance hit.
Not in this case, as the file system and everything offered by the host operating system is just so insanely better crafted that what would be if running on "bare metal".
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Not in this case, as the file system and everything offered by the host operating system is just so insanely better crafted that what would be if running on "bare metal".
Benchmarks or it didn't happen! ;)
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Not in this case, as the file system and everything offered by the host operating system is just so insanely better crafted that what would be if running on "bare metal".
I actually think you've got a valid point.
However the Linux kernel, if used in its entirety, could double the size of the operating system.
Of course it can be slimmed down quite a bit.
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On the PPC idea, I suppose I could contact Staff Verhagen, if he's still developing.
im not sure if i understand you well, but if you are asking for a ppc port of aros, there is one targetting sam computers. it appears to work, there appear to be problems with keyboard (driver) though. it has only been tested under emulation (qemu) lately, which also is at experimental stage for the platform in question. so ist difficult to tell how it behaves on the hardware. so far there has not been anyone interested in testing.
if you ask for aros support for ppc accelerators, i dont think there is actually interest rewarding such an effort. not to mention that this hardware is spectacularly rare.
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im not sure if i understand you well, but if you are asking for a ppc port of aros, there is one targetting sam computers. it appears to work, there appear to be problems with keyboard (driver) though. it has only been tested under emulation (qemu) lately, which also is at experimental stage for the platform in question. so ist difficult to tell how it behaves on the hardware. so far there has not been anyone interested in testing.
if you ask for aros support for ppc accelerators, i dont think there is actually interest rewarding such an effort. not to mention that this hardware is spectacularly rare.
No, I don't see the point of porting to accelerators.
Broader support of other PPC platforms would be nice.
The SAM460 is a little weak.
But the idea of emulating the SAM460 via qemu still sounds cool.
What is the platform used for the emulation?
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Guys let's keep the tone a bit less hostile, shall we? You're actually making me moderate posts. On a phone. On public transport. This does not make me happy.
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duplicate post, sorry.
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Guys let's keep the tone a bit less hostile, shall we? You're actually making me moderate posts. On a phone. On public transport. This does not make me happy.
Sorry Karlos, I'm trying to take it down a notch. And these guys are providing me some useful information.
I've heard about running a SAM460 emu via qemu, didn't know they'd been trying to run AROS on it.
And I'm unsure why this fork is so underdeveloped.
Sure, X86/X64 offers stronger performance, but PPC provides a unified platform.
In any case, I think I've been on the receiving end more than the delivering end, and I'm willing to endure it if there's still some payback in info gained.
I don't take the :griping: back and forth that seriously.
Just two more weeks! (TM)
If they really do have a beta network driver, then they are down to what just a sound driver?
Can't that be provided via USB?
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No, I don't see the point of porting to accelerators.
Broader support of other PPC platforms would be nice.
The SAM460 is a little weak.
anyone who wishes to cotribute support and testing for further ppc platforms, or whatever else platforms, is certainly welcome.
But the idea of emulating the SAM460 via qemu still sounds cool.
What is the platform used for the emulation?
im usually testing it within linux virtual machines on my PCs, simply because i compile everything there, so it is most convenient. last time i tried i had also to compile qemu myself from current source as sam platform support has not been public yet. im not sure if this changed by now.
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I've heard about running a SAM460 emu via qemu, didn't know they'd been trying to run AROS on it.
apparently aros is used for testing, as it runs on that emulation most reliably, in comparison to ng alternatives. it sounds strange but i cannot comment on this, as i have not tested anything else, neither do i intend to.
And I'm unsure why this fork is so underdeveloped.
this is not a fork. ppc platform is built from common source, same as x86, x64, arm or m68k. neither is it "underpowerded". so far as ive been able to test everything worked stale, except i couldnt use keyboard for input, which certainly limits my experience. but i have not noticed any particular problems. admittedly i have not spent much time with it.
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anyone who wishes to cotribute support and testing for further ppc platforms, or whatever else platforms, is certainly welcome.
im usually testing it within linux virtual machines on my PCs, simply because i compile everything there, so it is most convenient. last time i tried i had also to compile qemu myself from current source as sam platform support has not been public yet. im not sure if this changed by now.
Very cool development. It should help bridge the gap to X64.
I'm rebuilding my 11,2 Quad G5 and I'd love to work on what lou has suggested (a WiiU port) and on Apple support.
A Quad 2.5 GHz ought to be able to handle SAM460 emulation and still run other virtual machines.
An X5000 emulation would be even better, but who knows what the future will bring.
As to getting started with PPC AROS, right now all I can find are some dated ports.
Is there anything more generic?
I'm fairly certain I can get an older version of GCC running if it's needed.
And I'm trying to decide what video card to run in the 11,2.
I know people that have managed to make Radeon HD 6450 cards function, but I'm open to anything from the R600 up if it helps with video card support.
Even an Apple R500 if necessary (but I'd rather not go that far back).
The WiiU Linux port lou mentioned has a basic framebuffer driver for the video and only one cpu is currently functional, but it looks about as powerful (or more so) as a SAM460.
Anyway, thanks for the encouragement.
Once MorphOS shifts to X64, this could give me something to do with the PPC hardware that could at the very least provide an entertaining diversion.
And the challenge could be fun.
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apparently aros is used for testing, as it runs on that emulation most reliably, in comparison to ng alternatives. it sounds strange but i cannot comment on this, as i have not tested anything else, neither do i intend to.
this is not a fork. ppc platform is built from common source, same as x86, x64, arm or m68k. neither is it "underpowerded". so far as ive been able to test everything worked stale, except i couldnt use keyboard for input, which certainly limits my experience. but i have not noticed any particular problems. admittedly i have not spent much time with it.
Cool, how are endian issues dealt with?
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what endian issues?
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As to getting started with PPC AROS, right now all I can find are some dated ports.
what dated ports? ppc iso should be downloadable from aros nightly builds page:
http://aros.sourceforge.net/de/nightly1.php
Is there anything more generic?
what do you mean by generic? target hardware support needs to be implemented it wont happen magically. if you mean generic is ppc hosted on ppc linux or something like that, i dont know.
I'm fairly certain I can get an older version of GCC running if it's needed.
you should be able to compile aros along with ist toolchain on linux x86 no matter what host compiler, i dont know if anyone has ever tried to do that on ppc.
the instructions how to proceed are on aros Homepage compiling section:
http://aros.sourceforge.net/documentation/developers/compiling.php
i have lately written a quick summary of instructions on aros-exec but cant access it right now.
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...what do you mean by generic? target hardware support needs to be implemented it wont happen magically. if you mean generic is ppc hosted on ppc linux or something like that, i dont know.
...i have lately written a quick summary of instructions on aros-exec but cant access it right now.
Yes, I did find an older build that appears to be a generic PPC build for Linux, but its several years old.
I'm looking at the i386 instructions to get a better understanding of the compilation process.
Thanks for the pointers, and when you can, could you let me see the document you mentioned?
Edit - I did find the AROS archives, but I am unable to apply for SVN server access.
Tools for the creation of a much more up to date AROS build for specific PPC platforms appear to be available, but I haven't quite figured out where all the needed components are.
It's OK, I'm giving myself the Summer to work this out.
I'd like to try the WiiU and PowerMacs G4 and G5 as platforms.
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@Iggy
This is great progress/news.
Also, that WiiU Linux port doesn't use SMP but...
The Expresso cpu has Symmetric Multiprocessing to connect all three cores, MESI/MERSI protocol for CPU Cache's to not cause invalidation's between all three core's when using the Cache and other implementations that were needed. It is the best 750XX PPC cpu around :).
Each core is capable of 4.9 Gflops...so a theoretical 14.8Gflops. This puts it in league with AMD - Phenom X3 8450 / A4 5000 and Intel - i5 480M / Pentium E5800.
Again, the clock multiplier is only 5x. It downclocks to 3x for vWii mode. Those same commands can upclock it but you'd need better cooling...this is why I say take it apart.
Clock is set via EEPROM
http://wiiubrew.org/wiki/Hardware/SEEPROM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJC-rh3oLMk
SMP doesn't really benefit AROS [yet]. Though the x64 version has it...ABIv1?
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@Iggy
This is great progress/news.
Also, that WiiU Linux port doesn't use SMP but...
The Expresso cpu has Symmetric Multiprocessing to connect all three cores, MESI/MERSI protocol for CPU Cache's to not cause invalidation's between all three core's when using the Cache and other implementations that were needed. It is the best 750XX PPC cpu around :).
Each core is capable of 4.9 Gflops...so a theoretical 14.8Gflops. This puts it in league with AMD - Phenom X3 8450 / A4 5000 and Intel - i5 480M / Pentium E5800.
Again, the clock multiplier is only 5x. It downclocks to 3x for vWii mode. Those same commands can upclock it but you'd need better cooling...this is why I say take it apart.
Clock is set via EEPROM
http://wiiubrew.org/wiki/Hardware/SEEPROM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJC-rh3oLMk
SMP doesn't really benefit AROS [yet]. Though the x64 version has it...ABIv1?
Yep, but the WiiU uses a 32 bit processor, and that's not a big deal since I think AROS runs within the normal 32 bit memory address range unless you are using a 64 bit version (I could be wrong about that).
I did find OS components and PPC programs for AROS that are much newer than those posted on the main website (the OS is in a constant state of updates).
The PPC developers don't seem to have as advanced a version as the i386 port, but it looks like it should be possible to compile a port for the WiiU.
What I need is SVN server access, not to contribute initially, just for access to up to date source code.
And I need to find a few of these guys and see what hardware they are using. Past ports to the Sam440 and 460 have been done, as well as a port for the Genesi Efika.
I have a list of tools (outside of AROS) that are needed for a compile.
So I'll need to look for them, and decide what platform to use for development.
I can't say how complete or stable a WiiU port will be initially, but this will be fun.
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what endian issues?
Found it in the docs, its a switch in the code during compilation.
They've actually documented this stuff fairly well.
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Yep, but the WiiU uses a 32 bit processor, and that's not a big deal since I think AROS runs within the normal 32 bit memory address range unless you are using a 64 bit version (I could be wrong about that).
I did find OS components and PPC programs for AROS that are much newer than those posted on the main website (the OS is in a constant state of updates).
The PPC developers don't seem to have as advanced a version as the i386 port, but it looks like it should be possible to compile a port for the WiiU.
What I need is SVN server access, not to contribute initially, just for access to up to date source code.
And I need to find a few of these guys and see what hardware they are using. Past ports to the Sam440 and 460 have been done, as well as a port for the Genesi Efika.
I have a list of tools (outside of AROS) that are needed for a compile.
So I'll need to look for them, and decide what platform to use for development.
I can't say how complete or stable a WiiU port will be initially, but this will be fun.
git clone https://github.com/ezrec/AROS-mirror
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git clone https://github.com/ezrec/AROS-mirror
That will do quite nicely. Thanks Nik.
I now have the code I need, a recent Linux kernel for the WiiU, and a few versions of Linux that ought to work (but none perfectly as they aren't there own platforms, usually a Wii/WiiU combo).
So, a really stupid question, can AROS be compiled to a hosted system with only the Linux kernel or does it need other elements of an OS?
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Found it in the docs, its a switch in the code during compilation.
They've actually documented this stuff fairly well.
ok, there is a set of macros/flags that get set depending on endianness of target platform. you shouldnt be bothered to mess with it usually. there may be some endian poroblems here and there, mostly saving or retriving data from a file, like wanderer o particular zune settings, which is known, but whether none cared or those who cared, like me, looked into it but werent able to fix it properly. this all is minor though. aros should generally work fine on ppc big endian, since it does so on m68k.
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So, a really stupid question, can AROS be compiled to a hosted system with only the Linux kernel or does it need other elements of an OS?
i dont know the details how hosting works. certainly there must be some interfacing through x, sdl or alsa but i have never bothered with it as i have been using x86 and ppc mostly only as reference form m68k.
you should probably look at arch/all-hosted as well as other directories containing arch specific stuff. besides sam port there is ppc-native as well as ppc-morphos and ppc-all, most of which is probably not maintained if not abandoned since years.
now, building on ppc host you may actually come across endian issues. hopefully the needed packages are available at all. id look for some most popular and best supported distro, otherwise the Adventure will soon end in tears.
i advise to build outside of source dir together with the toolchain in one go. i describe it in my instructions i have linked to on aros-exec.
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So, a really stupid question, can AROS be compiled to a hosted system with only the Linux kernel or does it need other elements of an OS?
ah.. maybe i misunderstood, you mean something like anubis, arix or amithlon? or that kind of amigaos on linux kernel people are fantasizing about? obviously not. otherwise it would be widely known.
you can probably though strip down your linux host to get out of the way as far as possible. except for packages and tools needed for compilation, but then it can all be done from bash shell.
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Thanks for the advice warzon. I didn't expect to get this far this quickly.
And the AROS development community really has it's act together. Using an SVN server is particularly neat.
The coolest part about this is I could consider moving forward with Power processors after MorphOS shifts to X64.
Power9 should run this stuff really well, big endian, little endian, on Linux, with multiple sessions virtualized.
It has even been shown run X64 software.
So, an open platform, with open firmware, running open OS'.
The best part? Microsoft's nowhere in that equation. Neither is Intel.
As to the WiiU, we've got a 2013 version of AROS that is already set up for PPC hosted, we have the current sources ready to compile, there is a Linux 4.17 kernel available for the WiiU, and there are several Linux variants available for the WiiU including Debian 8 and Ubuntu.
And WiiU are dirt cheap, with a lot of potential that hasn't been tapped yet (the other two cores, gpu acceleration, etc).
lou, I owe you an apology, this looks promising.
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ah.. maybe i misunderstood, you mean something like anubis, arix or amithlon? or that kind of amigaos on linux kernel people are fantasizing about? obviously not. otherwise it would be widely known.
you can probably though strip down your linux host to get out of the way as far as possible. except for packages and tools needed for compilation, but then it can all be done from bash shell.
YES, that is exactly what I was thinking! But that could be a future goal. First get it up and running under Debian, and then figure out what can be jettisoned.
Considering the kernel is up to date, it might be possible to keep the underlying distro up to date.
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arent you derailing your own thread now?
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arent you derailing your own thread now?
Possibly...or I'm deferring to good advice. :)
You've made some good points, and like I said before, it will be...fun.
And isn't that what hacking is about, challenges, experimentation, pushing the boundaries?
And in the end, we're still discussing PPCs.
Let's just see what kind of port we have ready by the end of the Summer.
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btw, this platform stuff eveb if folded out linearly in one dir is hierarchical, so sam ppc target may and pprobably will pull headers from ppc-all.
good luck and keep posted.
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@wawrzon
who is the current maintainer for the PPC platform? if it's possible, i'd love to try booting AROS on my X5K, but am not familiar with doing this with our u-boot firmware. can you recommend anyone?
-- eliyahu
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@wawrzon
who is the current maintainer for the PPC platform? if it's possible, i'd love to try booting AROS on my X5K, but am not familiar with doing this with our u-boot firmware. can you recommend anyone?
-- eliyahu
there aint actually any current maintainer for ppc. you could best register on aros-exec as iggy did, or even dev-ml. zoltan balaton who adds sam boards support to qemu and updated aros sam target visits the later. he is also in contact with tlsom from aw.net.
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according to
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Aros/Platforms/Arm_Raspberry_Pi_support
rpi uses u-boot, so native aros must or must have been working with this.
as far as i see raspi-armhf nightly is still building in abi-v0 section. so the code might not be totally outdated. it everntually might need some changes, if you were inclined to compile abi-v1, which should imho be preferred default on any new platform.
the reason why im bringing up an arm device in ppc context is, that maybe bootstrap code could be borrowed from there with some endian fixes and such.
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in fact ppc supporters would be quite welcome, as far as im concerned. i have made some progress compiling deadwoods latest odyssey source within aros toolchain. x86 works as expected. i have ppc compile untested (im rather sceptical if it will run and stable) and im two missing atomic functions away from linking an m68k executable(which i kinda know, will crash). but nevertheless it would be nice to have active ppc testers and contributors. the work could eventually improve also os4 situation.
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@wawrzon
thanks for the tips. i'll go ahead and follow-up on this. i'd love it if my X5K could boot AOS4, MOS, AROS, and linux.
-- eliyahu
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And the AROS development community really has it's act together. Using an SVN server is particularly neat.
I'm not quite sure what to make of that statement. Do you think the other operating system camps don't use version control or something* ?
*that said, the Linux kernel was maintained at one point as a bunch of tarballs. Torvalds invented git because he didn't feel svn was suitable. Having used CVS ans SVN for longer than I can remember, git feels weird to me, but I'm getting there.
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Do you think the other operating system camps don't use version control or something* ?
that would actually be mandatory, but as they are closed its a bit hard to guess how it looks like. with os4, since apparently there are distinct individuals who actually own their code, which is part of the os, it might well be, that this code isnt hosted in a common repo, but only binaries are being delivered for a release. sounds bothersome to maintain, but would explain, why it is so hard to gather and deliver an update, even if some issues have been fixed and tested for years, as some members claim. similarly thor has complained, that it was a long way to get at least majority of os components building within one build system.
one way or the other. i cant actually tell as im not involved. with aros the particular bauty is, that you can actually compile the whole os, contributions and many ports with just configure and make. yu just Need to choose the supported platforms and your desired flags.
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Having had access to the source repository in the past, I can confirm that the OS4 sources are maintained under version control. There really is no alternative when working on projects that size.
I was just bemused by Iggy's statement which made it sound like version control was some sort of revelation that only the AROS team used.
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Having had access to the source repository in the past, I can confirm that the OS4 sources are maintained under version control. There really is no alternative when working on projects that size.
I was just bemused by Iggy's statement which made it sound like version control was some sort of revelation that only the AROS team used.
Yes, i imagine. Perhaps this is the whole reason for nda, as obligation towards individual developers. Dont disclose too much btw.
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@wawrzon
who is the current maintainer for the PPC platform? if it's possible, i'd love to try booting AROS on my X5K, but am not familiar with doing this with our u-boot firmware. can you recommend anyone?
-- eliyahu
I'd love to hear about that as I intend to buy an X5000, but I'm holding out for the X5000/40.
And my initial interest was in running MorphOS on that, but eventually MorphOS will transition to X64.
Also, I don't have that much interest in Amiga OS4, and AROS did provide some of the initial code to build MorphOS.
Finally, this OS is open and allows the users to participate in its development.
As a hacker since the '70s I find that appealing.
Warzon, eliyahu, lou, again, thanks for the inspiration.
Oh and one more target (two actually) I'd like to look at, iBook and PowerBook laptops.
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@Iggy
if i get it going, i'll post instructions here on amiga.org for others to follow. :)
-- eliyahu
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I'm not quite sure what to make of that statement. Do you think the other operating system camps don't use version control or something* ?
*that said, the Linux kernel was maintained at one point as a bunch of tarballs. Torvalds invented git because he didn't feel svn was suitable. Having used CVS ans SVN for longer than I can remember, git feels weird to me, but I'm getting there.
Having recently switch from SVN to GIT at work, I would never want to go back. Especially if using Gitflow.
Branching, merging etc is so cheap in Git
Edit: Can i recommend SourceTree when dealing with Git repos, makes everything super easy
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@Iggy
if i get it going, i'll post instructions here on amiga.org for others to follow. :)
-- eliyahu
Cool, um, I'm going to post this on a separate thread, but on the idea of open platforms, Raptor Engineering is planning on producing a reduced cost single cpu version of their Power 9 based TalosII board.
With a four core/sixteen thread processor this board is priced at less than $100 more than an X5000, or in other words its LESS than the price the X1000 sold for.
For a faster system, with a processor that can run either big endian or little endian code (or both) solving our issue with endian problems like the webkit port of Odyssey. And a four core Power 9 cpu can run 16 simultaneous threads, compared to the A1222 or X5000's two (or in the case of the still unavailable X5000/40, four thread, still one fourth at a slower speed).
At a little more than 2 grand with a Radeon HD 5850, some DDR4 and a hard drive, its not cheap, but its not significantly more than Aeon's best.
I might have to buy one and shift to working primarily with Linux hosted AROS.
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Yeah, git is fine. It just takes a while to get used to the non centralised approach. Almost all the criticisms I've seen levelled at svn over the years seem to be self inflicted problems but I agree, git is so flexible in comparison.
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I'm not quite sure what to make of that statement. Do you think the other operating system camps don't use version control or something* ?
*that said, the Linux kernel was maintained at one point as a bunch of tarballs. Torvalds invented git because he didn't feel svn was suitable. Having used CVS ans SVN for longer than I can remember, git feels weird to me, but I'm getting there.
I'm not sure I care what Linus thinks, since he obviously added a feature central to micro kernel (loadable/unloadable driver modules) to make up for an obvious dificiency of monolithic kernels.
I still prefer and support micro kernels and believe them to be supetior.
MorphOS is micro kernel based, the OS I supported on my 68K platforms was micro kernel based, even MacOS is a hybrid, and my eventual goal is to slim down Linux to the minimum needed to run a hosted version of AROS.
You can all go worship at the feet of Torvalds. Because basically Linux was just a kernel designed to facilitate a clone of UNIX. I could probably use BSD instead, but it might be more work.
I'm interested in this because it facilitates what I want to do, not out of some fan boy notion that it's Linux is a sterling example of original thinking.
Come to think of it, nothing in the computing world is. It's all built on other work, cloned copied or outright stolen.
The only thing I've heard of recently that sounded vaguely original was IBM's experiments building neural network based nodes. That, in my opinion, could actually lead to what we need for real AI, since it's similar to how "computing" is done in biologic entities (you know, brains).
In any case, let's freaking do this, let's build on and expand the ATOS PPC base.
Lou got me started thinking about the WiiU, but the X5000 is also a good target. As are the PowerMac and PowerBooks. And the Talos II...that would be incredibly cool.
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What does anything you just said have to do with what I wrote? I simply pointed out that all large projects depend on version control.
Your previous post made it sound as if using SVN for managing your OS sources was somehow unique to AROS, when in fact I can't think of an example of a large project that isn't managed via version control, whether it's svn, git, mercurial or even CVS.
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Thanks for the advice warzon. I didn't expect to get this far this quickly.
And the AROS development community really has it's act together. Using an SVN server is particularly neat.
The coolest part about this is I could consider moving forward with Power processors after MorphOS shifts to X64.
Power9 should run this stuff really well, big endian, little endian, on Linux, with multiple sessions virtualized.
It has even been shown run X64 software.
So, an open platform, with open firmware, running open OS'.
The best part? Microsoft's nowhere in that equation. Neither is Intel.
As to the WiiU, we've got a 2013 version of AROS that is already set up for PPC hosted, we have the current sources ready to compile, there is a Linux 4.17 kernel available for the WiiU, and there are several Linux variants available for the WiiU including Debian 8 and Ubuntu.
And WiiU are dirt cheap, with a lot of potential that hasn't been tapped yet (the other two cores, gpu acceleration, etc).
lou, I owe you an apology, this looks promising.
Apology accepted!
IDK if you could speak to the CEMU team (WiiU emulator) about graphics acceleration... There is a GX2 library available in the homebrew community...also Unity can target WiiU... My point being GPU acceleration is not a black hole...
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Only in Amiga-land! Lol
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IZoo3Kbbh7Y/VFqoNtMLV3I/AAAAAAAAXKI/6izmOQC4aOw/s1600/blind.jpg)
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What does anything you just said have to do with what I wrote?
thats iggy how we know him, right?
;)P
im curious if his aros ppc fork will share the fate of his appointed ppc custom hardware design. nevertheless, as i wished him luck, i hope it wont. looking at safari-leopard webikt diffs id really love to have some relevant big endian testing platforms. without too much bragging about. better doing.
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Having had access to the source repository in the past, I can confirm that the OS4 sources are maintained under version control. There really is no alternative when working on projects that size.
I was just bemused by Iggy's statement which made it sound like version control was some sort of revelation that only the AROS team used.
Bemused as you may be, I have no interest in OS4, and have no idea how MorphOS developers coordinate their project, although it must be through a similar system.
What amazes me is that allowing contributors to alter existing code doesn't create chaos, obviously there is the option to revert to previous versions, but the loose coordination reminds me a lot of some of the bigger Linux distros.
And often their steps "forward" wipe out something I preferred in earlier revisions.
Obviously there is more centralized control in the OS4 and MorphOS development communities as to what is and what isn't adopted.
In any case, I have the AROS source code, and will move forward in attempting to get it to run stably on some PPC platforms I have an interest in.
lou originally mentioned the WiiU, and I have G4 powered PowerMac, iBook and PowerBook hardware as well as PowerMac G5 systems (both AGP and PCI-e), And while there is a SAM460 port, don't you think there ought to be X1000 and X5000 ports as well?
I'll leave the idea of an A1222 port to those that prefer to punch down instead of up.
Then finally, with the announcement of by Raptor engineering that they will be producing a single cpu variant of the Talos II called the Talos II Lite...
Well we will soon have a Power 9 system available in the same cost range as the X5000.
Think about that, the cheapest Power 9 variant is a quad core that supports 16 concurrent threads.
That's 8 times as many as the X5000/20 and four times as many as the X5000/40.
Heck, its even double the number that the proposed T2080 based laptop could handle.
With a better fpu than any other Power variant thus far.
Porting AROS hosted to a big endian Linux variant on a Power 9 system should not be too difficult.
The next move would be to figure out the changes needed to move it to a little endian Linux variant.
And finally to create a native little endian variant.
And native version of AROS on Power 9 should be able to match any capabilities that AROS has on an X64 system (including the eventual adoption of SMP).
In fact, with the Power 9 hypervisor, it might be a MORE capable system.
Power 9 has already been demo'd running X64 software, and it can run multiple sessions via the hypervisor with sessions being EITHER big endian or little endian.
So think about it, a processor that could run PPC OS4 or MorphOS AND either PPC or X64 AROS (or BOTH), ALL AT THE SAME TIME.
It could even run Windows, Linux or possibly MacOS (on an emulated platform or via a hacked copy of MacOS).
All of this concurrently. In fact, the first four NG OS' mentioned only require 4 thread, leaving 12 threads for Linux or other OS'.
And this is on the cheapest Power 9 cpu.
There are Power 9 variants with up to 22 cores.
Only AMDs Epyc could beat that with 32 cores, but Epyc only supports 2 threads per core versus Power 9's 4 thread per core.
In other words, a single cpu Epyc system could support 64 concurrent threads.
A single cpu Power 9 system could support 24 more, or 88 concurrent threads.
Make these dual cpu systems and that number grows and the Power 9 system can support 48 more threads that the Epyc system.
And here's the kicker, an AMD Desktop Ryzen system maxes out at 16 concurrent threads (the same as the low end Power 9 four core) and can't be upgraded to the enterprise level multi-die Ryzen derivitives or Epyc.
But the Talos II CAN be upgraded. Your can start with the basic four core cpu on a dual or single cpu board (and the dual cpu board can still be used in single cpu configurations).
That gives you the same thread count as the best Ryzen desktop do.
Then you can upgrade all the way up, right to the 22 core cpu if you wish.
Giving you either and 22 core/88 thread machine or a 44 core/176 thread machine.
So, to those of you that contend that the PPC is dead, you have your heads up your rectum (and btw, yes, Power 9 IS a PPC).
This argument traces all that way back to my days building SS-50 bus computers and having arguments with S100 advocates stating their processors were faster.
Sure, and they had a much lower IPC/MIPS count.
And they went on to adopt CP/M (the progenitor of DOS), while we initially settled for Flex (which is pretty much a CP/M clone), but eventually once we had the 6809, we moved to multi-tasking OS' that supported multiple users.
So, the Motorola based community had real priority based preemptive multi-tasking before the Zilog/Intel community came up with kludges like MP/M.
Yes, even the lowly Tandy Color Computer could perform true multi-tasking, and the 68K when introduced was a quantum leap over Zilog and Intel offerings.
In fact, until the i386 was introduced, Intel cpus lacked the features necessary to implement some of the code that was running on the 68K.
SO, hey, the Amiga was the first multimedia computer marketed to the public with a SUPERIOR processor than those used on the first two generations of PCs (and it still easily match Intel's third generation).
The move to Power was intended to provide an alternative to X86, and up to the IBM 970 (aka the G5), it DID have full parity with Intel (in fact in some measures the G5 bests X86 cpus from the same era).
Using PPC as an accelerator for the Amiga was NOT a mistake, it was an effort not retain our exclusivity and not just fall in line with the competition.
If Apple had continued to support IBM/Power, desktop variants of systems above Power4 (the basis for the G5) could have been created that would have maintained that parity.
And IBM has soldiered on on it own, continuing to develop Power, now in its 9th iteration, and its still capable of matching or beating X64.
I'm feed up with having to resort to the "enemies" ISA.
From now on, I'm focusing on ARM and Power.
And if any of you had a clue what IBM has been focusing on as a successor to RISC, you might be question Intel's future dominance as much as I am.
ARM's everywhere in light weight portable devices, and Intel's been giving us more of the same for years.
If it wasn't for AMD we'd probably still be suffering with some lame P4 derivative, and in case anyone has forgotten, the 64 bit extensions to X86 are AMD64 extensions, the X64 ISA was AMD's creation, not Intel's.
They just implemented it as AMD's license requires sharing technology based on Intel underpinnings.
Intel didn't intend X86 to be extended to 64 bit, they wanted to move you all to Itanium. That failed, the P4 was pretty much a failure (both reminding me greatly of the Pentium Pro fiasco).
Hey, remember Intel started with the 4004, which was the first integrated one chip microprocessor, but that development was inevitable and early Intel products sucked.
There were PDP-11 micros produced soon after the 8088/8086 that could run circles around them.
Intel's cpus were best suited to use in calculators, and you don't even find them there anymore while the Z-80 and 68000 are still used in older TI Scientific calculator designs (and ARM dominates newer designs).
So DO I really HAVE to have an X64 system, and must I REQUIRE Microsoft software?
Hell, no, and the day those "must haves" die out will be the day the market opens up and a broader base of end user inspired solutions will appear.
This is not a vague prediction.
Intel stumbled more than once (especially with their ridiculous proposition that 10 GHz P4s were possible), and Microsoft?
Hey XP wasn't bad, Vista...well it looked good (but how many of you like it), Win 7 with Aero was a good recovery (but I hope you all realize that its really just an advanced version of Vista).
Win 8, 8.1, 10 (with its undeletable electronic "assistant"), hey I really tried, and 10 is almost tolerable (although why Aero was dropped is anyone's guess), but frankly, all three of these are uglier than Vista, and not as functional as Win 7.
I want OUT.
I not buying a Windows variant that builds on this crap, especially one that tries to force me to make all my software purchase through an approved "store".
So, from here out its Linux, and Power 9 or ARM, so I can free myself from these shackles.
You all do what you want, personally I want to divorce myself from these lame standards and their perpetual promises that they'll "get it right in the next generation".
Feh.
Jim
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What amazes me is that allowing contributors to alter existing code doesn't create chaos
It shouldn't, that's exactly what version control is for. Version control isn't just using a version control tool, it's about doing so with a workflow. Usually you make your changes in your own branch, keep it up to date with any important upstream changes and when it's ready, it's merged back. Usually with some sort of review process that the project maintainers have made policy. Whether you are using a centralised repository model like svn or a distributed one like git, it's policy (and permission management) that prevent unreviewed code making it's way into production.
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It shouldn't, that's exactly what version control is for. Version control isn't just using a version control tool, it's about doing so with a workflow. Usually you make your changes in your own branch, keep it up to date with any important upstream changes and when it's ready, it's merged back. Usually with some sort of review process that the project maintainers have made policy. Whether you are using a centralised repository model like svn or a distributed one like git, it's policy (and permission management) that prevent unreviewed code making it's way into production.
Thanks Karlos, I must admit that I'm old enough to remember when most projects were small enough to be handled by one programmer (or a lead programmer anyway).
This networked and cooperative environment shouldn't surprise me as its how all businesses operate these days. Collaborative teams, electronic communication,centralized web sites...
I sir, am an apparent troglodyte in manner in which I prefer to function, which is still "Don't worry, I'll take care of it".
I have a profound distrust in the aptitude of others to get the job done and would prefer to handle as much of it myself as possible.
Its an attitude I've got to shake in order to function in this brave new world we've evolved into.
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Thanks Karlos, I must admit that I'm old enough to remember when most projects were small enough to be handled by one programmer (or a lead programmer anyway).
Source control is very useful even with one person projects.
If you give each commit a decent description then it can remind you why you did something, without having to pollute the code with extraneous comments.
It can also be used as an infinite undo buffer, of course how much you can undo at a time is limited by how often you commit. It should be an end to those head scratching sessions while "this was working last week" goes over and over in your mind, or at least it will tell you exactly what changed.
Accidentally changing a line which doesn't stop it compiling/running but changes the behaviour are also much easier to detect.
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Source control is very useful even with one person projects.
If you give each commit a decent description then it can remind you why you did something, without having to pollute the code with extraneous comments.
It can also be used as an infinite undo buffer, of course how much you can undo at a time is limited by how often you commit. It should be an end to those head scratching sessions while "this was working last week" goes over and over in your mind, or at least it will tell you exactly what changed.
Accidentally changing a line which doesn't stop it compiling/running but changes the behaviour are also much easier to detect.
Good points, it will be a part of anything I develop from this point out.
Beats digging around for earlier versions of your code (I'm not the most organized person).
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I'm running Team Foundation Server 2018 at home. http://www.diasintegrated.com:8080/tfs
It's free for up to 5 users.
Hey, I make my living as a .Net coder ... so shoot me.
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just fyi we are working on multiple chipsets so mpc107/tsi107 etc etc wont be the only supported
this will help with prices and availability of cards and we have someone working on cheaper pci carriers for those
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I'm running Team Foundation Server 2018 at home. http://www.diasintegrated.com:8080/tfs
It's free for up to 5 users.
Hey, I make my living as a .Net coder ... so shoot me.
Whatever pays the bills. I've had to do some C# in the past, too.
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just fyi we are working on multiple chipsets so mpc107/tsi107 etc etc wont be the only supported
this will help with prices and availability of cards and we have someone working on cheaper pci carriers for those
Does Tundra Semi still support and supply the mpc107/tsi107?
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Does Tundra Semi still support and supply the mpc107/tsi107?
not that i know of but their were many that made that chip but most used was either the TSI107 or XPC107 from Moto and there are many versions 66mhz-133mhz
we are trying other bridges made by IBM and Moto and maybe Marvell etc but dont get your hopes up everything is always WIP
but you can find XPC107 easily MPC107 was a ceramic chip that i havent seen used anywhere its either XPC107 or TSI07
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but you can find XPC107 easily MPC107 was a ceramic chip that i havent seen used anywhere
Isn't it like XC68060 vs MC68060? Where they fix bugs in the XC and then it becomes MC when it's signed off?
"Motorola will continue to support both the Z00K21S (Rev C, i.e.
XPC107APX66/100LC)mask revision and the new mask revision, Z02K21S.
The Rev D XPC107 is not a drop in replacement in some designs. Thus,
Rev C will still be offered. For any new design, Motorola strongly
suggests customers use the rev D version.
For more information, please refer to the application notes,"MPC107,
Revision 1.3 and 1.4: Comparison and Compatibility." (AN2455/D) on
the MPC107 product summary page on the web.
CHANGED PART IDENTIFICATION
XPC107 product built with the Rev D mask, Z02K21S, will have a "D"
suffix at the end of the device number (XPC107APX66LD and
XPC107APX100LD),as opposed to the "C" suffix for the Z00K21S mask
product (XPC107APX66C and XPC107APX100LC) Also, the device marking
will contain "02K21S" as the mask revision. All other marking on the
device will remain unchanged. "
The XC68060 and MC68060 were both available in ceramic, it will have "FE" on the chip. I would expect XPC107 and MPC107 to be the same.
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Isn't it like XC68060 vs MC68060? Where they fix bugs in the XC and then it becomes MC when it's signed off?
"Motorola will continue to support both the Z00K21S (Rev C, i.e.
XPC107APX66/100LC)mask revision and the new mask revision, Z02K21S.
The Rev D XPC107 is not a drop in replacement in some designs. Thus,
Rev C will still be offered. For any new design, Motorola strongly
suggests customers use the rev D version.
For more information, please refer to the application notes,"MPC107,
Revision 1.3 and 1.4: Comparison and Compatibility." (AN2455/D) on
the MPC107 product summary page on the web.
CHANGED PART IDENTIFICATION
XPC107 product built with the Rev D mask, Z02K21S, will have a "D"
suffix at the end of the device number (XPC107APX66LD and
XPC107APX100LD),as opposed to the "C" suffix for the Z00K21S mask
product (XPC107APX66C and XPC107APX100LC) Also, the device marking
will contain "02K21S" as the mask revision. All other marking on the
device will remain unchanged. "
The XC68060 and MC68060 were both available in ceramic, if you wanted it (which not many people did). I would expect XPC107 and MPC107 to be the same.
nope doesnt seem to follow that rule with these bridges
the harrier bridge they made is ceramic though but is completely incompatible with XPC107
i have seen one pic on google of the MPC107 but like i said never seen it used the last ceramic bridge that was used was the 106 which doesnt have I2O
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thats iggy how we know him, right?
;)P
im curious if his aros ppc fork will share the fate of his appointed ppc custom hardware design. nevertheless, as i wished him luck, i hope it wont. looking at safari-leopard webikt diffs id really love to have some relevant big endian testing platforms. without too much bragging about. better doing.
Interesting you would reference that, as you all failed to respond in any significant numbers, and I ended up collaborating with some like minded Linux enthusiasts to work on a T2080 based laptop.
Funding for the first part of that, the scematics, is essentially complete and Acube has been working on the design of that.
I can thank the commitment of Roberto Innocenti and his friends for that, not Amiga enthusiasts because they always want someone else to shoulder the burden of creating the goods.
Linux enthusiasts don't think like that.
And I've completed projects like this before decades ago with the 68000 and 68020 processors.
I have support from NXP that dates back to the days of Motorola Semi, and have full documentation of a couple of reference design boards (right down to the full board layouts) and the Cadence/Orcad software needed load and manipulate them.
So, what have you all been doing lately? Waiting for a project based on a third rate eMC500v2 based cpu?
I have, and will put my time and effort into directions that make sense.
That was part of a discussion via e-mail that started with Bill Buck over the weekend, about economics and sensible strategic business management.
BTW - That was my major, because there were no IT programs when I started in this field, Business Management.
And my first job offer was from Dr. Fred Hoffstetter, after doing some work/study while still in High School.
Fred eventually became the director of Multi-media Communications at the University of Delaware.
So, does anyone want to compare experiences, productivity, or the length of their penises again?
Thanks to coordination with Mark "Bigfoot" Olsen, Paul "Acill" Rezendes, and David "AmigaDave" Morris we arranged a pre-release demo of MorphOS 3.10 at last year's AmiWest.
Again, I ask you all, what do you do with your spare time? Outside of work, I study for my MBA, and work on projects like these.
And I'm not particularly thin skinned, but if I set my mind to it, I usually get what I'm aiming for.
So, you all still waiting for third party salvation?
It ain't happening, we need to take it upon ourselves because no one with a reasonable sense of economics and good business priorities would come anywhere near this community.
Btw, a 68K port of Oddesey is rediculous.
And to conclude, big median platforms are disappearing.
What next, you guys going to suggest we recreate those with FPGAs, only to still be stymied by issues related to software coded with little median platforms in mind?
Again, a move to a little median platforms is the only eventual course left to us with any sendibility.
Whether it's bi-endian like Power 9 or some ARM variants, or natively little median like X64, it doesn't matter to me.
I saw the writing on the wall in the '90's and while I didn't like it, I shifted my primary ISA.
My former employer died while still promoting 68K. Some of you seem dead set on that intent as well.
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Does Tundra Semi still support and supply the mpc107/tsi107?
They're defunct.
The rest of the range can be found at IDT.
https://www.idt.com/products/memory-logic/ehb-embedded-host-bridges/?field-processor-bus=PowerPC%207xx%2F7448%20-167MHz%2CPowerPC%207xx%2F7448%20-200MHz&method-field-processor-bus=OR
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They're defunct.
The rest of the range can be found at IDT.
https://www.idt.com/products/memory-logic/ehb-embedded-host-bridges/?field-processor-bus=PowerPC%207xx%2F7448%20-167MHz%2CPowerPC%207xx%2F7448%20-200MHz&method-field-processor-bus=OR
You know, that was pretty stupid of me, because I have two samples of a 68K/PPC PCI bridge that used to be a Tundra product that were supplied by IDT.
I'm not sure where they are or if the vacuum packaging is intact, but that was one truly defunct idea I gave up on.
Too much code needed to drive the bridge.
And I apologize for the last rant.
Sometimes I have "flashbacks" to the '90s and that sense of immanent doom that everyone could see barreling down on my preferred ISA.
Sucks losing out to inferior technology because of "market forces".
But I'm not going to repeat that "last man on a sinking ship" experience.
It pretty much killed my friend and former employer, while I was in the 68K development community.
I tried to warn him (we'd received beta copies of Win 3.0 direct from IBM, that would load onto generic X86 hardware).
The birth of the computer as an appliance may have been born in the Apple Macintosh, but it was easy to see a future where to sole remaining major players would be the PC and the Mac.
Damned that sucked, and it Is still a gaping wound for me.
As to Bill Buck, some infer that he abandoned the community, but actually Genesi's devotion to the PPC nearly drove them into bankruptcy.
There are times when you have to realize it's over, and learn to move on.
Not sure I've completely learned that lesson yet, myself.
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Since the forums have been down the SonnetAmiga project has added support for two other PPC cards.
Ragnarok which is a PowerPC 750FX 800Mhz 256MB
KillerNIC K1 and M1 which is an MPC8383 333MHz and 400MHz 64MB
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@amiadudeorwat
The Killernic is cheap compared to the other supported cards:
https://www.ebay.nl/itm/GENUINE-DelL-XPS-625-630-730-PCI-Killer-K1-333Mhz-Gaming-Network-Card-R088J/362416107823?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D3706efb55a9f465780b2674e1f21bb52%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D232913479749%26itm%3D362416107823&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A35ceb356-b359-11e8-a47e-74dbd180df51%7Cparentrq%3Ab8e987a21650ac3d5433e732fffe4eeb%7Ciid%3A1
Pity is only that it is shipping to the USA only.