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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Kawazu on August 17, 2017, 05:16:51 PM

Title: Cs MKII
Post by: Kawazu on August 17, 2017, 05:16:51 PM
Thanks to Chucky my MKII is now doing 100mhz :D
And you can feel the difference from the 72mhz I used to have compared to the 100mhz when you for example use iBrowse :)
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Matt_H on August 18, 2017, 12:24:47 AM
Wow, I didn't even know it was possible to clock them that high. Any side effects? I thought the onboard SCSI failed above 66MHz or so.
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: HammerD on August 18, 2017, 02:53:25 AM
Quote from: Kawazu;829704
Thanks to Chucky my MKII is now doing 100mhz :D
And you can feel the difference from the 72mhz I used to have compared to the 100mhz when you for example use iBrowse :)


Nice, what did Chucky do to get it to 100Mhz? I Have my MK2 running at 60Mhz.
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: QuikSanz on August 18, 2017, 05:06:52 AM
Quote from: Kawazu;829704
Thanks to Chucky my MKII is now doing 100mhz :D
And you can feel the difference from the 72mhz I used to have compared to the 100mhz when you for example use iBrowse :)


Sure would like that on my MKIII!
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: gregthecanuck on August 18, 2017, 05:43:00 AM
Wow look at those MIPS!!
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: orange on August 18, 2017, 06:36:32 AM
what about overheating?
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: klx300r on August 18, 2017, 06:54:38 AM
Quote from: QuikSanz;829732
Sure would like that on my MKIII!

not me I like my CS-MKIII nice and stable and still darn fast with my UWSCSCI working just fine with no issues thank you;)
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: BLTCON0 on August 18, 2017, 10:02:29 AM
Quote from: klx300r;829735
not me I like my CS-MKIII nice and stable and still darn fast with my UWSCSCI working just fine with no issues thank you;)


+1
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Kawazu on August 18, 2017, 11:10:47 AM
I will link a post from amibay where everything is explained so I don't have to type a novel on my por phone :)

http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?90901-Amiga-hardware-repair-restoration-and-upgrade-service&p=850485&viewfull=1#post850485 (http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?90901-Amiga-hardware-repair-restoration-and-upgrade-service&p=850485&viewfull=1#post850485)
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Kawazu on August 18, 2017, 11:17:23 AM
Quote from: orange;829734
what about overheating?


At the moment I have not had any problem with the heat, I have tried to measure thre temperature of the heatsink itself with an IR measuring device and the highest I could record was 38c.

Chucky did some recording with a way more advanced instrument on the CPU itself without a heatsink and he hit over 90c in an instant.

So with a heatsink and a bit larger fan you will be just fine :)
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Whaka on August 18, 2017, 02:49:22 PM
Quote from: Matt_H;829725
Wow, I didn't even know it was possible to clock them that high. Any side effects? I thought the onboard SCSI failed above 66MHz or so.

no side effect at all. the mod consist to put the MkII in 040 mode only by moving 2 switch.
by doing this, you divide the bus frequency by 2. so, when you run a 060 at 100 Mhz, the bus run at 50.
so, the scsi work, and no stress at all for the logic and ram.

the only side effect is your 060 wasting a lot of cycles to wait for ram access :D
a real exemple : doom will run more fast at 72-75 Mhz with a 1/1 bus than 100 Mhz with a 1/2 bus...

mips are cool, but... that's not all.

Quote from: QuikSanz;829732
Sure would like that on my MKIII!
you can, the same way. but you need to switch the cpu voltage to 5V and get a 040>060 adapter.
but you'll face the same drawback. you get more mips on benchmark, but you bottleneck ram access...

in short : i'll never trade my Mk3 running 75Mhz for a Mk2 running 100 Mhz :D
i have both, so i experienced.
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Kawazu on August 18, 2017, 04:55:32 PM
Quote from: Whaka;829754
no side effect at all. the mod consist to put the MkII in 040 mode only by moving 2 switch.
by doing this, you divide the bus frequency by 2. so, when you run a 060 at 100 Mhz, the bus run at 50.
so, the scsi work, and no stress at all for the logic and ram.

the only side effect is your 060 wasting a lot of cycles to wait for ram access :D
a real exemple : doom will run more fast at 72-75 Mhz with a 1/1 bus than 100 Mhz with a 1/2 bus...

mips are cool, but... that's not all.


you can, the same way. but you need to switch the cpu voltage to 5V and get a 040>060 adapter.
but you'll face the same drawback. you get more mips on benchmark, but you bottleneck ram access...

in short : i'll never trade my Mk3 running 75Mhz for a Mk2 running 100 Mhz :D
i have both, so i experienced.


Can you let the rest of us see some benchmark screenshots?
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Whaka on August 18, 2017, 09:48:44 PM
for the moment, i can only post some screenshots with sysspeed and bustest with my Mk3 at 75 (74,3 Mhz wichamiga say) , set to 60ns for ram in firmware.

[ATTACH]5778[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]5779[/ATTACH]

i don't have screenshots with Mk2. and as it run at 100 Mhz too, it won't be useful...

but finding somone else with a OC'ed Mk2 running 1/1 bus to compare is doable i think... HammerD can you help ? :D
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Kawazu on August 19, 2017, 12:07:01 AM
Quote from: Whaka;829768
for the moment, i can only post some screenshots with sysspeed and bustest with my Mk3 at 75 (74,3 Mhz wichamiga say) , set to 60ns for ram in firmware.

[ATTACH]5778[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]5779[/ATTACH]

i don't have screenshots with Mk2. and as it run at 100 Mhz too, it won't be useful...

but finding somone else with a OC'ed Mk2 running 1/1 bus to compare is doable i think... HammerD can you help ? :D


Is there any form of real life application we can benchmark and see for example fps difference in a game or somthing?
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on August 19, 2017, 01:40:07 AM
Quote from: Kawazu;829772
Is there any form of real life application we can benchmark and see for example fps difference in a game or somthing?


The only way to get an accurate result for that would be on two otherwise identical systems (even better, the same system, just swap the boards) - since even things like what version you a math library a person is running might be enough to throw off the results.
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: HammerD on August 19, 2017, 03:17:42 AM
Quote from: Whaka;829768
for the moment, i can only post some screenshots with sysspeed and bustest with my Mk3 at 75 (74,3 Mhz wichamiga say) , set to 60ns for ram in firmware.

[ATTACH]5778[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH]5779[/ATTACH]

i don't have screenshots with Mk2. and as it run at 100 Mhz too, it won't be useful...

but finding somone else with a OC'ed Mk2 running 1/1 bus to compare is doable i think... HammerD can you help ? :D


Well I have mine at 60Mhz now 1:1....I tried 66Mhz 1:1 but it's not entirely stable with my system (which has a Sonnet PPC in it) at 66Mhz....maybe it's the Mediator acting up at 66MHz, or my RAM.  I don't know, but 60MHz is ok.  I can post SysSpeed results...

BTW I have the latest mask 060 from Stan in Poland.  And my board is a MK-II 040 upgraded to 060....
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Whaka on August 19, 2017, 07:18:25 AM
Quote from: Kawazu;829772
Is there any form of real life application we can benchmark and see for example fps difference in a game or somthing?

yes,  doom is a real exemple. i can do a little video later today.
and i think quake have a benchmark mode too.
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Whaka on August 19, 2017, 03:52:04 PM
here it is  : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zCHGWytf9Q
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Kawazu on August 19, 2017, 05:39:37 PM
Quote from: Whaka;829797
here it is  : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zCHGWytf9Q


Nice will check it out when I can sit down in front of the computer, on my phone it says "not available"
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Whaka on August 19, 2017, 06:13:27 PM
argh !! i guess it's beacause i didin't think to mute music i was listening... youtube bot probably did their work...
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: QuikSanz on August 19, 2017, 07:04:40 PM
I would not bottleneck RAM to get a few more arbitrary MIPS. Waste of time!
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Kawazu on August 19, 2017, 08:09:11 PM
Did a quick video and just let the demo run a bit.
Dont know what map you got on your video so i just used the default.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSgLdQ9Rmp0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSgLdQ9Rmp0)
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Whaka on August 19, 2017, 09:57:55 PM
it was doom 2.
so, i did
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Whaka on August 19, 2017, 10:04:56 PM
it was doom 2.

i did a quick shot with the same version as your : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o78ac89CHPQ&feature=youtu.be

just simply look at the first screen : i got 32 fps, where you get 17.
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Kawazu on August 19, 2017, 10:15:18 PM
Quote from: Whaka;829818
it was doom 2.

i did a quick shot with the same version as your : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o78ac89CHPQ&feature=youtu.be

just simply look at the first screen : i got 32 fps, where you get 17.


Yes, your fps sure is higher then what I'm getting.
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Whaka on August 19, 2017, 10:36:19 PM
believe me or not, but if you roll back your mk2 to 72 Mhz, you'll have same results.
i'm gonna do this on mine. 100 Mhz with a bottlenecked bus not really worth it...
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: amiadudeorwat on August 20, 2017, 12:51:00 AM
Quote from: Whaka;829823
believe me or not, but if you roll back your mk2 to 72 Mhz, you'll have same results.
i'm gonna do this on mine. 100 Mhz with a bottlenecked bus not really worth it...

There are a lot of different variables here.  One system has CS-MK3 that has much faster memory than a CS-MK2.  But it could very well be that Doom really needs fast system RAM above everything else.  Not sure whether Prometheus beats a Cybervision, by the way which Cybervision is that, 64 or 3d?
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Kawazu on August 20, 2017, 11:08:38 AM
Quote from: amiadudeorwat;829827
There are a lot of different variables here.  One system has CS-MK3 that has much faster memory than a CS-MK2.  But it could very well be that Doom really needs fast system RAM above everything else.  Not sure whether Prometheus beats a Cybervision, by the way which Cybervision is that, 64 or 3d?


Ohh yes that is correct, the mk3 have a 64bit memory access :)
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Whaka on August 20, 2017, 07:22:57 PM
64 bits memory doesn't do very much in this case.
in this case, this is not specially doom. and this is not specially graphic card too.
this is simply the effect of the 060 wasting ton of clock cycles to read/write in memory when the bus is divided by 2... it's not very hard to understand.

it's a bit like if you get a car engine from 72 to 100 HP, but divided the gas pedal run by half. (i don't know if "run" is the good word in this context but english is not my native language)

look : here is my Mk2 at 66 Mhz 1:1 bus : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPKMsKGj_1g

compare here at 100 Mhz : https://youtu.be/9zCHGWytf9Q?t=73

what do you see ? and please watch carefully :)

i have a very little bit better framerate at 66 Mhz... why ?
because at 66 Mhz, the bus is synchronous, and the 060 despite the fact there's less raw mips... waste a lot less clock cycles to access memory.
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Kawazu on August 20, 2017, 08:01:07 PM
Quote from: Whaka;829848
64 bits memory doesn't do very much in this case.
in this case, this is not specially doom. and this is not specially graphic card too.
this is simply the effect of the 060 wasting ton of clock cycles to read/write in memory when the bus is divided by 2... it's not very hard to understand.

it's a bit like if you get a car engine from 72 to 100 HP, but divided the gas pedal run by half. (i don't know if "run" is the good word in this context but english is not my native language)

look : here is my Mk2 at 66 Mhz 1:1 bus : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPKMsKGj_1g

compare here at 100 Mhz : https://youtu.be/9zCHGWytf9Q?t=73

what do you see ? and please watch carefully :)

i have a very little bit better framerate at 66 Mhz... why ?
because at 66 Mhz, the bus is synchronous, and the 060 despite the fact there's less raw mips... waste a lot less clock cycles to access memory.


The first sentence you wrote in that post made me ignore everything else you have said.

If a 64bit memory access would not matter "that much" your MKII would recive the same FPS as your MKIII did, sure you had a 9Mhz differnce but that would not drop you from a stabel 25-30 fps on the MKIII to a 16-19fps on the MKII

And then we take a look at the video where MKII 66mhz vs MKII 100Mhz
Here we can see maby 1-2 fps difference in some areas at most, its very hard to tell them a part.
So if you where running a application that where not that memory hungry like Doom and would use the CPU more the 100mhz MKII would win by a long shot.

Run a timedemo and you will have a easier way to see the FPS difference.
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Whaka on August 20, 2017, 09:25:36 PM
well, if you won't uderstand the simple fact that a synchronous bus is better than a bottlenecked bus in general, i can't do much.

the simple facts you can see in my videos, doom doesn't load slower and get around 1,5 fps better on the very first screen at 66 Mhz synchron, speak by itself.

did you realize that we speak about 34 Mhz less here ??
how the hell i can get better results ???
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Kawazu on August 20, 2017, 09:42:16 PM
Quote from: Whaka;829852
well, if you won't uderstand the simple fact that a synchronous bus is better than a bottlenecked bus in general, i can't do much.

the simple facts you can see in my videos, doom doesn't load slower and get around 1,5 fps better on the very first screen at 66 Mhz synchron, speak by itself.

did you realize that we speak about 34 Mhz less here ??
how the hell i can get better results ???


In general? You have showed us one example of a game that favors fast memory!
Title: Re: Cs MKII
Post by: Whaka on August 20, 2017, 10:32:32 PM
ok, as we mostly have same configurations, you can give me some exemples to test.
as you have a 100 Mhz and me a 66 Mhz Mk2 now, we can try to do comparisons in general applications, such as loading webpage or pictures, or mp3 encoding :)

and yes, i said in general.
what the point of overclocking if it's for losing more than you are supposely win ?
for me, overclocking is to try getting a win/win situation...

at this point, if it's only for saying "yay ! my 060 run 100 Mhz, look those angry mips in sysspeed" but loosing half of them in memory waitstate... errr