Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: giZmo350 on August 13, 2017, 06:21:12 PM
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From EAB.....
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=88275
From AmigaWorld.de
http://www.amigaworld.de/blog/webseiten/amigaos-internetseite-eingestellt/
Translated from above link....
"The idea of the AmigaOS website came after the official pages disappeared from the Internet and left a gap for the user. Thus, it was still possible to obtain all official updates for AmigaOS 3.1, 3.5 and 3.9.
After over 12 years of presence in the net, Hyperion Entertainment approached me, pointing to the violation of the copyright of some archives for AmigaOS 3.1 and the request for removal. On request for an alternative source, unfortunately I could not be called. According to Hyperion Enterainment, you are also working on improvements to AmigaOS 3.1 - whether, when, or how the missing updates are incorporated, remains open.
I have decided to take the unofficial AmigaOS website completely from the net. Users will now have to contact the manufacturer and / or copyright owner directly. A big thank you to all who helped the website and for the very lively use of the offer."
(https://i2.wp.com/www.amigaworld.de/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/amigaos2.png?w=210)
And the Hyperion/Indivision P96 deal fell thru...
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1096284&postcount=2833
POPCORN!!!! :lol:
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This does not sit well with me. Don't think I'll be patronizing the company until they fix this.
I still use classics and this stuff is important.
Chris
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Hmmmm, actually looks like much ado about nothing... :lol:
Back to your regularly scheduled NoKo fears.... :roflmao:
(http://realfunny.net/uploads/donald_trump_and_kim_jong-un_swap_hair._2172852791.jpg)
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Dont see why it matters. If you really want the software, you can google and find it.
Hell I know of people who have OS4 running under Windows emulation and didnt pay for it. lol. By people I mean, 1, and heavens no, its not me. LMAO. (yes, this thread isnt about OS4, but still, point made).
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After over 12 years of presence in the net, Hyperion Entertainment approached me, pointing to the violation of the copyright of some archives for AmigaOS 3.1 and the request for removal.
The only thing that was asked for, just to be completely fair, was to remove four beta updates nobody should actually use anymore to begin with.
http://www.amiga-news.de/de/news/comments/thread/AN-2017-08-00020-DE.html?frm_start=0
I have decided to take the unofficial AmigaOS website completely from the net.
That, however, was your own decision, and was neither asked for. Even though, again to be completely fair, it does contain copyrighted material of copyright you do not own. Hosting such material means that you can always contacted from the rights holder to take it down.
And the Hyperion/Indivision P96 deal fell thru...
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1096284&postcount=2833
Actually, I'm really amazed what you read into this. If I read it, it only means that Hyperion does not have resources to deliver what Jens was asking for. That does not suprise me the least. I actually doubt that there was a deal to begin with.
One thing I find really amazing: When I mentioned the idea of potentially integrating P96 a bit deeper into the Os probably a year ago, a lot of aggression popped up how one could dare trying to monopolize the rtg graphics "market" of the amiga. Bad, bad thing, how could I dare thinking...
Now, it seems all plausibe that Jens was potentially asking for something like that, probably for his "Amiga reloaded", and now that Hyperion has (obviously) no resources for making this happen, it is also considered bad.
It's probably about time that folks here try to find out what is really desired and what is not.
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It's probably about time that folks here try to find out what is really desired and what is not.
People want things that work, if embedding P96 into the OS means interfering with using CGFx, then no... I would not want that.
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People want things that work, if embedding P96 into the OS means interfering with using CGFx, then no... I would not want that.
What means "interferring"? Most - if not all - CGX based software works with a Picasso96 installed systems (like one of my A2000's). Same is true for (most) CGX aware software that I use with AmigaOS 4.1 FEU1, which has no real "Picasso96" anymore - it is integrated into the OS itself (mostly graphics library).
So I assume it is all matter of stub/wrapper design, which we have since ages between Picasso and CyberGrafX.
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What means "interferring"? Most - if not all - CGX based software works with a Picasso96 installed systems (like one of my A2000's). Same is true for (most) CGX aware software that I use with AmigaOS 4.1 FEU1, which has no real "Picasso96" anymore - it is integrated into the OS itself (mostly graphics library).
So I assume it is all matter of stub/wrapper design, which we have since ages between Picasso and CyberGrafX.
The entire "family" of solutions (Domino, Picasso II, MacroSystem Retina, EGS, CyberGraphX, Picasso96) which replace the built-in Amiga chip set graphics output with what used to be SVGA graphics hardware needs a very specific operating system version to work with.
The oldest solutions would support Kickstart version 2.04 as well as Kickstart versions 3.0 and 3.1. Those solutions which still saw updates in the recent past no longer support Kickstart version 2.04.
In order to make the change from the built-in Amiga chip set to the SVGA graphics hardware possible, scores of run-time patches are applied to the operating system, and the code which is hooked into the operating system also makes assumptions about the layout and contents of undocumented data structures.
For example, a set of run-time patches makes opening screens possible on Picasso96, which rely upon the specific contents of several CPU registers when memory is allocated for the screen to use. As it is, this only works with intuition.library versions 39 and 40, as built with a 'C' compiler last updated in 1987. Use a different 'C' compiler and Picasso96 will suddenly start using chip memory for screens because the CPU register contents expected by the run-time patches no longer match.
Picasso II and CyberGraphX support screen dragging, just like it does on the Amiga built-in chip set (if you can still recall that!). The code which made this work was originally developed for Kickstart 2.04 (by Thomas Sontowski), but when Kickstart 3.0 came around it ceased to work. The internal data structures attached to the fundamental screen data structure had changed (in 1992), which broke the run-time patch that enabled screen dragging support. While a solution for this unexpected incompatibility was eventually found, it relied upon a set of undocumented data structures.
The dependencies on run-time patches and undocumented data structures are going to cause trouble sooner or later if/when graphics.library and intuition.library are modified and rebuilt. There will be a need, and there arguably already is a need, to allow the Amiga operating system to play better with the kind of new hardware which we will see arriving this and next year (keeping my fingers crossed).
In Commodore's times it was already hard to make clever hardware solutions work, because the Amiga operating system was tightly integrated with the custom chip set, and there was no apparent need to go beyond it. Commodore itself failed at making the transition to what was called "retargetable graphics" (RTG for short), and 3rd party developers such as Village Tronic succeeded in spite of this. When Commodore went out of business, these third party solutions were no easier to make and evolve. I was there, and there are scores of stories about the strange bugs that popped up during development to baffle everyone involved. These run-time patches, etc. were some of the most complex solutions you could imagine.
It is no easier today than it was back in the 1990'ies to graft code onto an operating system not intended to be extensible in the graphics arena in the first place.
It cannot stay that way indefinitely: making the operating system more friendly towards the use of today's hardware rather than having the developers spent an awful amount of time jumping through hoops, will have to happen.
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For example, a set of run-time patches makes opening screens possible on Picasso96, which rely upon the specific contents of several CPU registers when memory is allocated for the screen to use. As it is, this only works with intuition.library versions 39 and 40, as built with a 'C' compiler last updated in 1987. Use a different 'C' compiler and Picasso96 will suddenly start using chip memory for screens because the CPU register contents expected by the run-time patches no longer match.
As an update to that, I crafted around 2000 an interface extension to AllocBitMap() that would allow a cleaner handling of the matter, but it requires both a change in P96 (where this interface is actually already present in the sourcecode) and in intuition (where this interface would have to be used, but it is not).
Unfortunately, I do not know about the internal workings of CGfx, but I would expect similar trickery. One way or another, if this area is not touched, it currently prohibits the further development of intuition. Even further, adding something elementary like "off screen dragging of windows" is a piece of cake with layers V45, but it requires a recompilation of intuition. Given that the compiler for intuition is no longer available (Greenhill C), one can no longer guarantee that exactly the same register layout P96 (and likely CGfx) depend upon will be used in newer versions.
Alas, deadlock!
Picasso II and CyberGraphX support screen dragging, just like it does on the Amiga built-in chip set (if you can still recall that!). The code which made this work was originally developed for Kickstart 2.04 (by Thomas Sontowski), but when Kickstart 3.0 came around it ceased to work. The internal data structures attached to the fundamental screen data structure had changed (in 1992), which broke the run-time patch that enabled screen dragging support. While a solution for this unexpected incompatibility was eventually found, it relied upon a set of undocumented data structures.
Further note on that: What CGfx offers here is not "like it does on the Amiga chipset" simply because contemporary (at the time, and even nowadays) PC chipsets do not support it. The best VGA can do is reset the bitmap pointer in the middle of the screen. This gives you the ability to display at most two screens (not arbitrarily many, as on Amiga) with exactly the same resolution (unlike the Amiga, which allows mixing low-res and hi-res) and exactly the same palette (unlike the Amiga, which allows palette switching). The only resolution would be to compose the screens manually with a fast blitter (or 3D hardware, as available today, but not back then).
The morale of the story is: Yes, CGFx supports some sort of screen dragging, but a considerably limited version of it, and there is no way to extend it towards a fully useful dragging support given the limitations of the hardware of the past days.
With custom hardware (aka Vampire) the cards are all mixed anew, however graphics currently lacks a suitable interface to abstract the copper away and to retarget this to a different hardware. IOWs, without a serious redesign of graphics, this is also a no-go, unless somebody wants to sacrifice CGfx and/or P96 compatibility.
It cannot stay that way indefinitely: making the operating system more friendly towards the use of today's hardware rather than having the developers spent an awful amount of time jumping through hoops, will have to happen.
I second that. However, given the workpower available at the moment, and the political implications of at least breaking one rtg system, I believe the chances to make serious progress in this area are rather limited.
I personally consider it desirable, but given the opposition received I would prefer to keep out of this.
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Great answer Olsen,
A nice, concise description of the issues at hand.
In the 80's and early '90s I used other 68K OS' for process control, and as those were designed to be modular, incorporating alternate graphics systems was a bit easier.
As you've pointed out AmigaOS was never designed with graphics upgrades in mind, but it could be altered to make that upgrade easier to support.
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So, before this thread gets too far off-topic, it appears that Hyperion has stuck out its foot and squashed the one easy-to-find, trusted resource for downloads of stuff like BB1/BB2 for 3.9, whatever the 3.5 updates were, and all of the minor updates for 3.1, correct? Awesome, good job. Of course these things can be found on Google, and most Amiga users have probably downloaded backups of what they need... but just... UGH. :angryfire:
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@Oldsmobile_Mike
no, they didn't. all they did was request he take down four, specific files that contains binaries they have rights to. and if they don't enforce their rights, they lose them. anyway the site owner decided to throw a tantrum and took everything offline instead of just removing the four files and now everyone is pissed and blaming hyperion.
as always cgutjahr's excellent amiga-news has the details: http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2017-08-00020-EN.html
-- eliyahu
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the site owner decided to throw a tantrum
An Amiga user? Throw a tantrum? Shocking, that would never happen! :laughing:
End result is the same though - anyone want to host these files before they get lost to eternity? Maybe they could be uploaded to Aminet? (haha, I know, chances of that ever happening are slim to none). ;)
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@Olsen
I remember Domino driver that stop to work under OS 3 with a guru.
I did trace the code during hours trying to fix it. I made it not to crash but the mouse pointer stopped being displayed. I used to kill interrupt to be able to trace the driver code under Monam. Great memories, I remember something called SontoskyWB.
Kamelito
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@Oldsmobile_Mike
anyway the site owner decided to throw a tantrum and took everything offline instead of just removing the four files and now everyone is pissed and blaming hyperion.
-- eliyahu
i really love that. each time a vivid os4 supporter gets disapointed by some odd action reaching beyond his own sentiment and, at least for a while, refrains from further engagement, which is, in fact not a duty, but his very own responsibility and (last but not least) some risk, he immediately gets accused as throwing tantrums, not being supportive enough, treachery and all kinds of stuff .. by the former fellow supporters. well, guys, maybe you are talking to a mirror or a future yourself? there is enough examples of such an awakening..
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i really love that. each time a vivid os4 supporter gets disapointed by some odd action reaching beyond his own sentiment and, at least for a while, refrains from further engagement, which is, in fact not a duty, but his very own responsibility and (last but not least) some risk, he immediately gets accused as throwing tantrums, not being supportive enough, treachery and all kinds of stuff .. by the former fellow supporters. well, guys, maybe you are talking to a mirror or a future yourself? there is enough examples of such an awakening..
OK, what would be right term to describe that action? Request to remove 4 files and then take whole site down?
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@olsen/Thomas Richter
As usual thanks for your insights into the 3.x internals.
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It cannot stay that way indefinitely: making the operating system more friendly towards the use of today's hardware rather than having the developers spent an awful amount of time jumping through hoops, will have to happen.
So I guess we are talking about bringing AROS 68k to the point where it can be used as everyone's main operating system(bugfixes/optimisation). Or waiting until the Copyright expires on OS3.1 (70 years?) so the leaked source code can be expanded upon. I wonder which will happen first. :)
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So I guess we are talking about bringing AROS 68k to the point where it can be used as everyone's main operating system(bugfixes/optimisation). Or waiting until the Copyright expires on OS3.1 (70 years?) so the leaked source code can be expanded upon. I wonder which will happen first. :)
Well, there could be a "door #3", too ;)
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@olsen
PPC interpreter for 68K? ;)
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@olsen
PPC interpreter for 68K? ;)
for what? petunia?
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for what? petunia?
It was a joke my friend - sure call it patricia - PPC interpreter. I was insinuating that 68K could run 'old' PPC code in backwards compatibility mode. PPC = Zombie/undead platform, 68K = Rising from the dead
A bad attempt at humour/trolling, keeping in spirit of this thread.
Olsen and his door #3 tease is nice to see. Maybe some progress happening in the background. :)
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Olsen and his door #3 tease is nice to see. Maybe some progress happening in the background. :)
good thing that where there are doors wide open there always is one locked up, you can listen at and speculate, if there are rumours behind. thats always most interesting. things that actually happen out there are boring.
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Well, there could be a "door #3", too ;)
Back to that, what IS the third option?
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Back to that, what IS the third option?
In my mind open-sourcing OS3 and controlling it in a similar manner as Linux. There simply isn't enough money in OS3 to pay for multiple full-time developers. However there is likely a way to cover the expenses of one "gatekeeper" that reviews/accepts changes to the main tree of an official supported distribution. This opens the door to multiple contributors and sponsored/bounty updates.
This could be funded by simply charging royalties for retail/bundled distribution.
Hey it could work if there are enough calm heads prevailing.
I would also suggest this should be a model for OS4 going forward but that will likely open a COSTCO-sized can of worms. ;)
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Well, there could be a "door #3", too ;)
I remember seeing OS4.0 beta running fully 68k many years ago so I'm going to guess OS4.1FE compiled for 68k is the "door #3". Hyperion motivated by the new breed of Vampire FPGA accelerators which are only going to keep getting faster. More people to sell operating systems to.
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Amiga 68k is lost cause. People are not ready to pay for software. I have seen lots of shameless cry-outs when somebody ask about 10 euros his/her work.
We could ask about Vesalia how many Amiga OS3.9 CDs they have sold last months? I would bet that not many. Vampire users just pirate OS3.9. There hasn't been lots of 68030 accelerators for A500/A600 wich would allow them to run OS3.5/9 previously. So most of A500/A600 has been stuck for OS3.1.
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Vampire users just pirate OS3.9
Speak for yourself. The pirated files shouldn't be available online to begin with. Do you think the war on drugs should be stopped just because drugs are still available? Crazy logic. An IP holder is always going to protect their IP and people WILL get prosecuted for giving away illegally pirated software!
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@gregthecanuck (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=955)
That's not your call to make is it. If the Apollo Team want a better experience for THEIR hardware customers they should approach Hyperion and get a bundled distro to sell WITH the Vampire. If they're not bothered individual customers should NOT resort to piracy, should buy copies of OS3.9 from Vesalia or wherever.
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We could ask about Vesalia how many Amiga OS3.9 CDs they have sold last months? I would bet that not many.
I'm certainly not a perfectly straight arrow, but I bought OS3.9 from Vesalia about two months ago.
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Speak for yourself. The pirated files shouldn't be available online to begin with. Do you think the war on drugs should be stopped just because drugs are still available? Crazy logic. An IP holder is always going to protect their IP and people WILL get prosecuted for giving away illegally pirated software!
It wasn't statement, I was just pointing out obvious.
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@gregthecanuck (http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=955)
That's not your call to make is it. If the Apollo Team want a better experience for THEIR hardware customers they should approach Hyperion and get a bundled distro to sell WITH the Vampire. If they're not bothered individual customers should NOT resort to piracy, should buy copies of OS3.9 from Vesalia or wherever.
Hey BozzerBigD -
My suggestions for how to handle OS3.x going forward are meant to solve a general supply issue overall, not just for Vampire users.
For example, I have an Amiga 3000 that I am rebuilding and want to do a re-install. Also have an A2000, a couple of 4000s, etc... To get the latest OS3.x installed is a huge pain in the ass. I have to buy/download/patch various pieces from all over the freaking WORLD.
I would like to get able to buy an updated distribution (ideally with updated ROMs) that I could install onto these machines. This would include all the fixes that have previously been patched in, such as scsi.device updates for large drives/partitions, layers library updates and the loads of other updates and patches that have been added on as boing bags and other crap. Way too much pain.
In addition, a supported and updated distribution would then open the door for supporting NEW hardware coming out, both for Vampire users, Jen's new A1200 reloaded system, and whatever other new hardware comes out in the future.
And FYI the Vampire team DID try to work with Hyperion but got a pretty cool reception. However as more and more Vampires go out the door I think Hyperion may be taking a second look... who knows...
Cheers!
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Do you think the war on drugs should be stopped just because drugs are still available?
Yes please, because the war on drugs is killing a LOT more people than the drugs themselves, plus it is a huge waste of tax payers money.
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For example, I have an Amiga 3000 that I am rebuilding and want to do a re-install. Also have an A2000, a couple of 4000s, etc... To get the latest OS3.x installed is a huge pain in the ass. I have to buy/download/patch various pieces from all over the freaking WORLD.
I would like to get able to buy an updated distribution (ideally with updated ROMs) that I could install onto these machines. This would include all the fixes that have previously been patched in, such as scsi.device updates for large drives/partitions, layers library updates and the loads of other updates and patches that have been added on as boing bags and other crap. Way too much pain.
This. All of this. Amigakit and others already sell pre-installed 4GB CF cards with 3.1, nice and legal. If the rights-holders for 3.9 did the same thing, maybe on an 8GB card with PFS, USB support (Poseidon), an updated TCP/IP stack, all of the BB updates... Maybe include a few other proven beneficial features (the Peter K. icon.library comes to mind)... This would sure make adoption of that version a lot easier.
Almost every week I see posts from people who want to install 3.9 but are having issues (like not having a CD drive, making the ERD, etc.). Sure would make it a lot easier!
...wishful thinking, I know. :(
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Very much all of that.
I wracked my brain trying to resurrect my long-dead 4000D a couple of months ago, and found it to be a pain in the ass having to search through years of forum posts, links, etc to see why stuff didn't work, where to find this patch, where to find that update, Here's the official boing bags, here's the unofficial ones... et cetera et cetera.
Just b*tching.
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If the rights-holders for 3.9 did the same thing
There is no "rights-holder" for 3.9. H&P used to be be the rights holder, but their license from AInc was revoked ages ago (and would have expired by now anyway). Now Cloanto and Hyperion have rights to AmigaOS <=3.1, H&P owns the documentation, the new installer and a bunch of prefs programs (re)written for 3.9 while all other improvements and additions are owned by the external authors who wrote them.
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There is no "rights-holder" for 3.9. H&P used to be be the rights holder, but their license from AInc was revoked ages ago (and would have expired by now anyway). Now Cloanto and Hyperion have rights to AmigaOS <=3.1, H&P owns the documentation, the new installer and a bunch of prefs programs (re)written for 3.9 while all other improvements and additions are owned by the external authors who wrote them.
This is my understanding of this mess too. I just realized the CD that had my BB collection on it has vanished. Great timing.
Does anyone remember Franko? he used to assert that he own the rights to the OS. Maybe he wasn't kidding......
Where is he these days.
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There is no "rights-holder" for 3.9. H&P used to be be the rights holder, but their license from AInc was revoked ages ago (and would have expired by now anyway).
That, and some rights fell back to the corresponding authors pretty early.
Now Cloanto and Hyperion have rights to AmigaOS <=3.1, H&P owns the documentation, the new installer and a bunch of prefs programs (re)written for 3.9 while all other improvements and additions are owned by the external authors who wrote them.
It pretty much depends on the outcome of idividual negotiations between the authors and H&P at this time, and ongoing development in the aftermath of 3.9.
Only the authors know exactly what they negotiated with H&P, so one cannot tell in general.
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I know I'll regret this...
Does anyone remember Franko? he used to assert that he own the rights to the OS. Maybe he wasn't kidding......
Where is he these days.
Search his real name or Mad Franko 008. He's not trying to hide really.
#6
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Franko is the hero Amigans need, but don't deserve.
He's OK. I spoke to him recently.