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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: garyg on June 18, 2017, 01:15:47 AM
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I'm trying to back up my HD to a 2GB Jaz disk, but after attaching it to the SCSI-2 port of my A4000's Phase 5 SCSI-2 port I get the Commodore "insert WB disk" animation, yet the computer starts up normally if the Jaz drive is disconnected.
Anyone have any idea what's wrong and how to fix it? The Jaz drive's SCSI ID is 4, the internal CD-ROM's ID is 6, and the HD is of course 0. That's all the SCSI devices.
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Improper termination confusing the SCSI chain?
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Improper termination confusing the SCSI chain?
At first, when I improperly terminated the cable on the Jaz end I got no response at all from the A4000. Isn't that the usual (non-)response when the SCSI chain is improperly terminated?
Nevertheless, I'll try moving the SCSI-2 cable to the other connector tomorrow if no more likely answer appears.
Thanks!
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At first, when I improperly terminated the cable on the Jaz end I got no response at all from the A4000. Isn't that the usual (non-)response when the SCSI chain is improperly terminated?
The "usual response" is that anything could happen if you have an improperly terminated SCSI bus. Anything from "does not boot" to "appears to work most of the time". It just makes any type of transfer unreliable.
Currently, if you see the "insert floppy" animation, it means that the firmware on the host adapter is not able to locate any drive on the SCSI bus, which is one of the many possible outcomes of a communication problem on the bus. Another one is that the scsi scanning process just hangs.
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It's a longshot, but you could try going into Early Startup (hold down both mouse buttons when powering on the Amiga) and selecting the boot drive. I've only ever had to do this once that I remember, but it might work.
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I tried that once, holding down the "outside" buttons on my 3-button mouse, and the Early Startup screen didn't appear, but I'll try it again if reconnecting the SCSI cable to the other terminal on my Jaz drive doesn't work.
I wonder if connecting the Jaz drive to the SCSI-1 port on the back of the A4000D might work? What puzzles me is that the present configuration HAS worked in the past.
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It's a longshot, but you could try going into Early Startup (hold down both mouse buttons when powering on the Amiga) and selecting the boot drive. I've only ever had to do this once that I remember, but it might work.
I just tried that (after connecting the SCSI cable to the other terminal on the back of my Jaz drive) and HD0: was MISSING from the list of drives (none of which were bootable, which included df0: and a second HD). I even tried booting w/o a startup-sequence but got the Commodore animation again.
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Do any of your devices have internal termination available/enabled? I think that may be a 'thing' - it's been some years since I've had any SCSI equipment. If you have multiple devices terminating unintentionally, the wheels on the SCSI bus may fall off.
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Not at present. My external CD-R/W is not connected, and an examination of the SCSI chain just shows 0 for the HD and 6 for the internal CD-ROM
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Not at present. My external CD-R/W is not connected, and an examination of the SCSI chain just shows 0 for the HD and 6 for the internal CD-ROM
I think you're misunderstanding the concept of "SCSI termination". Check all of your jumpers. In general, the last device on your chain should be the one with the jumper. I.e., if a jumper currently is installed on your optical drive and you're adding an additional device on the chain, then you'll need to move that jumper to the (new) last device.
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Well, what frustrates me is that the Jaz drive has worked perfectly (and the Amiga has booted normally) with this very configuration.
I'm assuming that the Jaz drive is the last in the SCSI chain. Its ID is 4.
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ID has nothing to do with the chain vs. last device. The last device is just a physical definition, IDs can be in any order.
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Yes, I knew that. I was just adding it to illustrate that I had no SCSI conflict.
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Yes, I knew that. I was just adding it to illustrate that I had no SCSI conflict.
You keep giving us the ID #'s, but you haven't said anything about if you've checked the device termination. We're trying to help, really we are, but you're not giving us much to go on! :confused:
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I've connected the SCSI cable to both connectors on the back of the Jaz drive. What else should I do? The way I have it connected right now is the way I've always (successfully) connected it in the past
I'm thinking of using a SCSI-2 to SCSi-1 cable and connecting the Jaz drive to the built-in SCSI-1 port on the back of the Amiga 4000.
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What else should I do?
Check. Your. Termination.
The way I have it connected right now is the way I've always (successfully) connected it in the past
If this is the case, and nothing else in your system has changed, you might try a different cable?
When is the last time it worked successfully for you?
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I've connected the SCSI cable to both connectors on the back of the Jaz drive. What else should I do? The way I have it connected right now is the way I've always (successfully) connected it in the past
I'm thinking of using a SCSI-2 to SCSi-1 cable and connecting the Jaz drive to the built-in SCSI-1 port on the back of the Amiga 4000.
Careful!! the 4000 desktop does NOT have a built -in scsi port!
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Careful!! the 4000 desktop does NOT have a built -in scsi port!
Lol. I wonder if he's connected it to his parallel port by mistake?
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Careful!! the 4000 desktop does NOT have a built -in scsi port!
The OP has a Phase 5 Scsi board.
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I located the manual today and noted the termination positions
and set the termination correctly, resulting in the termination light going on!
However, even though the A4000 %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8220;boots%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8221; the Commodore %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8220;insert WB disk%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8221; appears again!
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I located the manual today and noted the termination positions
and set the termination correctly, resulting in the termination light going on!
However, even though the A4000 %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8220;boots%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8221; the Commodore %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8220;insert WB disk%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8221; appears again!
You said it worked before...
WHAT did you change?
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You said it worked before...
WHAT did you change?
I changed the termination to ON (there are three options: ON, OFF, and AUTOMATIC, which turns the termination on or off depending on the rest of the SCSI chain)
I also set it to AUTOMATIC and got the same result, the "insert disk" animation.
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I changed the termination to ON (there are three options: ON, OFF, and AUTOMATIC, which turns the termination on or off depending on the rest of the SCSI chain)
I also set it to AUTOMATIC and got the same result, the "insert disk" animation.
No, what else did you change before this term thing. (you said it was working before?)
Was it always external, always connected, only connected for back up?
If always external, do you power on the ext box first, then the computer?
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No, what else did you change before this term thing. (you said it was working before?)
Was it always external, always connected, only connected for back up?
If always external, do you power on the ext box first, then the computer?
I haven't used it for a long, long time, but the configuration was the same. It's a stand-alone (i.e. external), SCSI device. I think the power switch was always set to ON, so I never thought much about turning it on or off before now.
I didn't change anything else, so it really puzzles me to get the Commodore WB 3.1 animation, as if it can't find a HD (and invoking the Early Startup screen displays df0:, and the three partitions of a second internal HD, none of which are bootable).
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Okay, It might be that the system drive is slower then the jaz. Is the jaz drive set up as a bootable disk? Does the ext box have a termination block on the outside?
It might be double termed now?
But the conflict is with the system drive being read first.
Try removing the cartridge, then first power up the ext box, power up the amiga, after it's booted, insert the cartridge, let it spin up and...hopefully be accessible...
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Thanks for the insight! Most of the time I haven't had a cartridge in the Jaz drive, and doesn't have a termination block on the outside.
OK, I'l disconnect the Jaz drive, go into the Early Startup window and make sure the HD boo priority is set to zero (that's the lowest, right?)
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Thanks for the insight! Most of the time I haven't had a cartridge in the Jaz drive, and doesn't have a termination block on the outside.
OK, I'l disconnect the Jaz drive, go into the Early Startup window and make sure the HD boo priority is set to zero (that's the lowest, right?)
No...
from amiga hard drive book, page 4-11
"It is suggested that you set your boot partition's priority to 1 and any other bootable partition to a priority of 0."
BTW, df0: has the default setting of 5.
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I can't find my Amiga Hard Drive book. I went into the Early Startup Screen and saw that the boot HD was indeed 3 (and df0: 5). However, when I clicked on the entry it just toggled between bootable and non-bootable. How do I change the boot priority?
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Boot priorities only matter if there is more than one bootable device. The disk animation indicates that there is not even one bootable device.
I still suppose it is a hardware problem. Connecting the JAZ disables the HDD.
Does the JAZ drive have a power supply? If not, maybe there is not enough power for all the JAZ, the HDD and the Amiga from just the Amiga's power supply.
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I'm trying to back up my HD to a 2GB Jaz disk, but after attaching it to the SCSI-2 port of my A4000's Phase 5 SCSI-2 port I get the Commodore "insert WB disk" animation, yet the computer starts up normally if the Jaz drive is disconnected.
Anyone have any idea what's wrong and how to fix it? The Jaz drive's SCSI ID is 4, the internal CD-ROM's ID is 6, and the HD is of course 0. That's all the SCSI devices.
Is backing up data to a format that hasnt been in production since 2002 actually a sensible idea?
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Yes, the Jaz drive has its own power supply. The Amiga boots with an external CD-R/W attached (which has its own power supply). Its boot priority is unknown.
Unfortunately, the CD-R/W model seems not to be supported by the CD-R software. So it does seem to revolve around the boot priority
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Yes, I use it almost daily
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You should boot from floppy with both drives attached and use Phase5's UnitControl program to check whether the JAZ drive is recognised. The program can also rescan the SCSI bus. Until now you only said that the HDD is not recognised, there is no information about the JAZ drive yet. Maybe the YAZ drive is faulty and the whole SCSI chain is disabled because of some malfunction.
It might be dangerous but it might be a possible test to boot without the JAZ drive and connect it later (or have it connected but power it up later), then use UnitControl to get it recognised.
Could it be that it's not the JAZ drive, but the HDD? Maybe you changed some options on the HDD after you disconnected the JAZ drive last time "in the past".
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The Amiga boots fine with nothing attached, so it can't be the HD (yet).
Where is the Phase5 program you describe? I don't recall seeing it on my HD.
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The Amiga boots fine with nothing attached, so it can't be the HD (yet).
By "nothing" you mean nothing external, right? The Amiga cannot boot well without the HD attached :-)
There are several SCSI options which can be set in the HD's Rigid Disk Block, like Synchronous, Reselection and so on. Some of them influence the whole SCSI chain. If one of the other drives does not work with one of these options, it might be the reason for the failure.
Where is the Phase5 program you describe? I don't recall seeing it on my HD.
"SCSI Systemdisk" on this page: http://phase5.a1k.org/
invoking the Early Startup screen displays df0:, and the three partitions of a second internal HD, none of which are bootable
Didn't see this before. Is that second internal HD on the P5 SCSI bus, too?
Are you sure that the boot HD has a different SCSI ID than the JAZ drive? Have you checked it?
Are you sure that the internal SCSI config hasn't changed since you used the JAZ drive last time?
IIRC the P5 SCSI kit has the internal devices on one end and the external ones on the other end with the controller in the middle, forming one long SCSI chain. If the termination of the internal devices changed, it might be a reason why adding an external device causes the whole chain to fail.
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By "nothing" you mean nothing external, right? The Amiga cannot boot well without the HD attached :-)
Right, nothing external
There are several SCSI options which can be set in the HD's Rigid Disk Block, like Synchronous, Reselection and so on. Some of them influence the whole SCSI chain. If one of the other drives does not work with one of these options, it might be the reason for the failure.
"SCSI Systemdisk" on this page: http://phase5.a1k.org/
Didn't see this before. Is that second internal HD on the P5 SCSI bus, too?
I'm pretty sure it is (I didn't install it).
Are you sure that the boot HD has a different SCSI ID than the JAZ drive? Have you checked it?
Yes, 0 and 4, respectively.
Are you sure that the internal SCSI config hasn't changed since you used the JAZ drive last time?
Pretty sure. I'd been prettty careful about altering it. If I knew how.
IIRC the P5 SCSI kit has the internal devices on one end and the external ones on the other end with the controller in the middle, forming one long SCSI chain. If the termination of the internal devices changed, it might be a reason why adding an external device causes the whole chain to fail.
Well, as I said, the system boots with a CD-R/W drive connected externally to the Phase5 SCSI-2 port.
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Okay, let me see if I got this..
Your 4000 has a Phase5 scsi controller..
which has a hard drive inside the 4000 case and an ext cd and an ext jaz drive. (2 boxes)
Do you have the cd attached first and then daisy chain to the jaz? Or the other way?
If so, make use the first ext device is NOT terminated! Only the last scsi device should be terminated.
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There is normally NO external device connected, and no other external device connected when the Jaz drive is connected. There IS an internal CD-ROM drive (SCSI ID 6).
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There is normally NO external device connected, and no other external device connected when the Jaz drive is connected. There IS an internal CD-ROM drive (SCSI ID 6).
I still don't have a clear idea how many devices you have connected, lol. :lol:
For simplicity sake, why don't you change the numbering so that the one furthest away is the highest one? For example:
A4000 --> Internal Phase5 SCSI controller card --> Internal hard drive (set that as ID 1) --> Internal CD drive (set that as 2) --> External CD drive (set that as 3) --> External Jaz drive (set that as 4, stick a termination jumper on it, and remove the termination jumpers from all of the prior devices in the chain).
That's making a lot of assumptions, but you know, gotta start somewhere. :laughing:
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By default, NOTHING is connected externally.
SCSI numbering:
HD 0
internal CD-ROM 6
external CD-R/W (when connected) 2
external Jaz drive (when connected) 4
I also have an external ZIP drive, whose SCSI ID is 5.
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well, I clicked on HDToolbox (not CybSCSI Toolbox) and it appears the 2nd internal SCSI HD was added without an "update" in HDToolbox, so I chose Update.
Now I need to know just how to change the boot priority because the options that HDToolbox gives me are something like add a new drive or to partition, both of which destroy data.
I get the impression from the Harddisk manual that I have to choose Partition to get to the Change Boot Priority screen. Is that right? If so, I want to avoid destroying data at all costs.
Is it as simply as choosing Partition, then going to a Change Boot Priority screen, not getting in danger of erasing something?
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By default, NOTHING is connected externally.
SCSI numbering:
HD 0
internal CD-ROM 6
external CD-R/W (when connected) 2
external Jaz drive (when connected) 4
I also have an external ZIP drive, whose SCSI ID is 5.
As you're swapping those external devices around you're swapping the termination jumper, right?
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well, I clicked on HDToolbox (not CybSCSI Toolbox) and it appears the 2nd internal SCSI HD
You didn't include that in your previous list. What ID is the 2nd internal SCSI HD?
Again I suggest you simplify a bit. Start with one device (for example, your main hard drive). Remove everything else for the meantime and make sure your system is working 100% correctly. Then add a second device (for example, your second internal HD). Make sure your ID, termination, partitioning, and everything else are 100% correct and that the system works well and is stable with these two devices.
Next add the third device (this would probably be that internal CD-ROM you mentioned). Swap the termination jumper, triple-check that there's no ID conflict with the previous two devices, etc. Make sure all works well in this configuration and then go on to the next device.
You get where I'm going at with this, right?
If I understand your posts correctly you have a total of six devices (two internal hard drives, one internal CD-ROM, one external CD-RW, one external JAZ drive, and one external ZIP drive). That's quite a lot. It'll be a lot easier if you start at the beginning and work your way up. Or you can make it harder on yourself, your choice! Lol. :lol:
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Well, since I just updated the HDs via HDToolbox I don't know the ID of the 2nd internal HD. It shows up in the Early Startup menu, though.
I only add one external device at a time and make sure it's terminated (though I'd forgotten how the Jaz drive was terminated with a switch until recently)
Any idea on how to change the boot HD partition's boot
priority?
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By default, NOTHING is connected externally.
SCSI numbering:
HD 0
internal CD-ROM 6
external CD-R/W (when connected) 2
external Jaz drive (when connected) 4
I also have an external ZIP drive, whose SCSI ID is 5.
Is any thing connected to the 4000 ide header?
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Any idea on how to change the boot HD partition's boot priority?
With HDToolbox
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Mike,
Invite this guy to one of your meetings and fix this...please! (he's in d.c.)
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I don't think so. I didn't install the 2nd HD, and there's nothing else in the A4000 except Zorro cards
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Yes, but with Partition or the other option?
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I don't think so. I didn't install the 2nd HD, and there's nothing else in the A4000 except Zorro cards
But is the drive physically connected to the SCSI chain? You mentioned it showed up, earlier. Regardless of if it's been partitioned and formatted it still need an appropriate ID and termination (or not, depending on where in the chain it's connected).
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Yes, it shows up on the Early Startup screen. I'm about to check
BTW, I have not only HDToolbox, but also CybSCSIHDToolbox, and SCSIToolbox on my Workbench.
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Well, I went into HDToolBox, changed the boot prioritiy from 3 to 1, saved, and exited. Then I rebooted with the Jaz drive connected and turned on (and the light at the back was lit, indicating termination).
Nope, I still got the Commodore "insert WB disk" animation.
Early Startup did not show the boot drive (HD0:), although it did show all three partitions of the second drive (all non-bootable).
SysInfo soon froze while trying to find the SCSI ID of the 2nd drive. I wonder if perhaps it isn't connected to the IDE drive, since I vaguely recall now that the original 120MB IDE drive was removed when the 2nd drive was installed, so it wouldn't be a SCSI drive after all.
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Just FYI y'all: I attached my SCSI ZIP drive, checked the SCSI ID (5) and termination, and everything booted up fine, and the ZIP drive works perfectly.
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Just FYI y'all: I attached my SCSI ZIP drive, checked the SCSI ID (5) and termination, and everything booted up fine, and the ZIP drive works perfectly.
So, it's the Jaz device that is borked??
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I'll try and check that theory by attaching it to another Amiga
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You were right about that! I got a different Jaz drive with the same settings (SCSI ID, termination, SCSi connection) and it booted and worked fine!