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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: curtis on April 12, 2017, 10:59:55 PM
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So, I've got my A2000 running pretty smoothly with a generic IDE CF adapter with a SCSI to IDE bridge configuration and decided I needed some sort of backup system and picked the SCSI2SD board.
Well, it got in and now I'm wondering which would be best as my primary "hard drive" and which would best serve as the backup.
How much speed am I losing by having the CF adapter running through the bridge as opposed to the SCSI2SD?
Is it even enough to be noticeable?
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@Curtis....
Since I'm still trying to come up with a reliable solution for an OS3.9 HDD, I'm very interested in your outcome.
What SCSI adapter are you using?
Have you tested the speed thru the SCSI to IDE bridge? It would be good to know this.
Which SCSI to IDE bridge did you install, AmigaKit, ACard, other, manufacturer?
Did you get the SCSI2SD V6.0 board? There's a guy on EAB that measured 1.85 MB/sec using an A2091. After he applied the 14MHz hack to the A2091 he now gets 2.4 MB/sec consistently. Not too shabby.
BTW, did you use the new GUI to configure your SCSI2SD?
Here's the kicker.... will both of these HDD adapters be recognizable from the Emergency Repair Disk (ERD) floppy? That's the big MUST, unless you're using some magical backup solution that you can restore a bootable backup to your SYS partition, in my case anyway.
Let us know how you get on please. :)
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I use an Acard in my 4000T on my CSPPC scsi controller and get 34 a second through it using a 64MB IDE DOM (Disk on Module). After all the other choices and fighting with SCSI drives, scsi2sd and CF adapters on A4000T IDE this was by far the fastest.
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How much speed am I losing by having the CF adapter running through the bridge as opposed to the SCSI2SD?
Try to measure the speed you have right now. I get 1.2MB/sec on the SCSI2SD v5, and 2.4MB/sec for the SCSI2SD v6, both connected to the 2060 on-board SCSI.
For the v6, unfortunately synchronous SCSI does not work, so the "fastest possible" speed option does not provide a stable system. The v5 was always rock-stable.
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Whilst the V5 SCSI2SD is stable and reliable for me, i upgraded it a while back to the latest firmware and it is now incredibly slow. I'm using it on an Apollo 2030 which I know is a rubbish controller anyway, but it's annoying that I upgraded the firmware to achieve a slower speed, we're talking...200kb/s (booting takes an age) and the older firmware versions don't seem to be available anymore.
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Get an ACARD 7720 (or a 7722 if you know how to desolder and reflash the ROM) and use a small IDE DOM with it. Its an awesome combo.
Here is my setup, NOTE!! I desoldered the IDE header from the other side of the board and relocated to the front and switch to pins from a socket so I could use this DOM on the header directly. The 7722 is also reflashed with the ROM from a 7720 so I can use it with hard drives and not only CD/DVD-ROM like the 7722 is locked for, and is why the 7722 is a lot cheaper.
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Whilst the V5 SCSI2SD is stable and reliable for me, i upgraded it a while back to the latest firmware and it is now incredibly slow. I'm using it on an Apollo 2030 which I know is a rubbish controller anyway, but it's annoying that I upgraded the firmware to achieve a slower speed, we're talking...200kb/s (booting takes an age) and the older firmware versions don't seem to be available anymore.
mmmmmm.... I put the v4.7 firmware on my V5a, now I am getting 1MB/sec from my unaccelerated A500 with GVP HD8+ and 8 megs of fast ram. I think this is up from 800kBytes/sec for an older firmware (maybe something like v4.2)
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I have CF and SD in Mechy SCSI card readers on both my A500 and A2000. Haven't run any speed tests in a while but from what I recall the CF was faster than the SD. This is about the most direct "apples to apples" comparison one would be able to do. Although there's so many variables involved in this question - the make and performance characteristics of the card, they type of interface used, I imagine the file system would affect performance, how many adapters are required between the devices... Good luck! :lol:
This thread reminds me that I've still got a 2091 sitting on my shelf, halfway done with the 14MHz hack. Maybe one of these years I'll get around to finishing it! :rofl:
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I have CF and SD in Mechy SCSI card readers on both my A500 and A2000.
Schnykies! I keep forgetting I have a Mech SCSI reader in my A590! I need to move this to my A2000! :lol: Hey Mike, can I PM you later to get how you created the mount lists for this? Do all the card slots show up with an ERD when they have cards in them? Is the Mech reader the only HDD device in your A2K? This would be perfect for OS and SYS B/U if they do. :)
This thread reminds me that I've still got a 2091 sitting on my shelf, halfway done with the 14MHz hack. Maybe one of these years I'll get around to finishing it! :rofl:
Halfway? LOL.... Git 'er done! :roflmao: Actually, I have one of these too... I'm one to talk!
Acill's setup looks pretty sweet too! Acill, ever think about selling these pre-made up as a kit?
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I have CF and SD in Mechy SCSI card readers on both my A500 and A2000. Haven't run any speed tests in a while but from what I recall the CF was faster than the SD. This is about the most direct "apples to apples" comparison one would be able to do. Although there's so many variables involved in this question - the make and performance characteristics of the card, they type of interface used, I imagine the file system would affect performance, how many adapters are required between the devices... Good luck! :lol:
This thread reminds me that I've still got a 2091 sitting on my shelf, halfway done with the 14MHz hack. Maybe one of these years I'll get around to finishing it! :rofl:
I love my Mechy readers, but I was never able to get SD working in them, I was able to get lun 0 with CF in pcmcia adapter to work and lun 1 CF in CF slot too work.
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Acill's setup looks pretty sweet too! Acill, ever think about selling these pre-made up as a kit?
It would be expensive and I wouldnt make anything at all on them, but I would gladly build them for a small fee if the parts were sent in as long as time permits. I have been gone so dang much for work, currently in Japan again until the 29th.
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Get an ACARD 7720 (or a 7722 if you know how to desolder and reflash the ROM) and use a small IDE DOM with it. Its an awesome combo.
Here is my setup, NOTE!! I desoldered the IDE header from the other side of the board and relocated to the front and switch to pins from a socket so I could use this DOM on the header directly. The 7722 is also reflashed with the ROM from a 7720 so I can use it with hard drives and not only CD/DVD-ROM like the 7722 is locked for, and is why the 7722 is a lot cheaper.
@Acill I was looking at these on ebay. You post clears things up...
So how do you do the flash from 7722 to 7720? The Block of six pins in the upper right corner?
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Well, didn't do any stop watch or benchmark tests, but after trying things it seems the SCSI2SD is just a bit faster so will probably go with that as my primary and rig the CF with the ACard 7720 adapter as my backup.
Now to get something rigged up for the mounting. Durham makes a nice front plate, but the danged thing doesn't have any mounting holes! What were they thinking? Just going to let it flop around in the case?
Oh well, the mad hacker strikes again!
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Schnykies! I keep forgetting I have a Mech SCSI reader in my A590! I need to move this to my A2000! :lol: Hey Mike, can I PM you later to get how you created the mount lists for this? Do all the card slots show up with an ERD when they have cards in them? Is the Mech reader the only HDD device in your A2K? This would be perfect for OS and SYS B/U if they do. :)
Hey buddy! I can't think of any reason why they wouldn't. As long as your controller supports LUN's and you have HDToolbox properly configured (use the tooltype to show all devices) and the correct file system installed (for example, I have my SD card formatted as FAT32 for transferring files to other devices. I don't think the ERD would recognize it unless I had the FAT95 file system installed on it). With those caveats aside, I would think an ERD would be able to show all the cards just fine. :)
I just went to test it on my A2000 but noticed I have my ERD here at the office but my OS 3.9 CD at home. Then when I tried to cancel the requester asking for the CD I noticed my mouse wouldn't move. Looks like my (*@%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!$( coworker bumped my Cocolino with his chair and broke off the connector. Also my A500 at home needs work - got a Guru-ROM for the GVP controller months ago but now the case doesn't close (because the combined height of the card reader + the Guru-ROM adapter is too high). Been thinking to replace the card reader with one of those AmigaKit SCSI2SD's... but now I see they're out of stock.... Aaah! Whine, whine, complain. Both of my Amiga's need work and I'm too busy helping my girlfriend move and remodeling my bathroom at home to do anything about it.
Also, my PM box is like 99% full again. :laughing:
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@Acill I was looking at these on ebay. You post clears things up...
So how do you do the flash from 7722 to 7720? The Block of six pins in the upper right corner?
You have to get the 7722 I have in my picture. If you look at it you can see a square SST branded ROM chip in the left side. The one you get MUST be this exact one. IBM makes one like this with a flat ROM that I dont know how to reflash. This one in this ebay link is the WRONG one.
http://r.ebay.com/BgHHY3
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You have to get the 7722 I have in my picture. If you look at it you can see a square SST branded ROM chip in the left side. The one you get MUST be this exact one. IBM makes one like this with a flat ROM that I dont know how to reflash. This one in this ebay link is the WRONG one.
http://r.ebay.com/BgHHY3
I see the difference, unfortunately the Square SST chip looks older, hopefully this doesn't mean obsolete.
So how do you flash it?
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mmmmmm.... I put the v4.7 firmware on my V5a, now I am getting 1MB/sec from my unaccelerated A500 with GVP HD8+ and 8 megs of fast ram. I think this is up from 800kBytes/sec for an older firmware (maybe something like v4.2)
Just FYI, using the built in A3000 scsi (same western digital scsi chip as the GVP HD8+).
I got 2Mbyte/sec from the Mechy reader and 1Mbyte/sec from the SCSI2SD
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Try to measure the speed you have right now. I get 1.2MB/sec on the SCSI2SD v5, and 2.4MB/sec for the SCSI2SD v6, both connected to the 2060 on-board SCSI.
For the v6, unfortunately synchronous SCSI does not work, so the "fastest possible" speed option does not provide a stable system. The v5 was always rock-stable.
I'm using an ACard SCSI-to-IDE bridge on my A2000/Blizzard 2060 and I get about 4 to 4.5MB/sec with an old 2 GIG ide drive. I think the 2060scsi.device can do faster so I maybe will try a different hard drive to see if I can get it faster.
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I noticed my mouse wouldn't move. Looks like my (*@%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!$( coworker bumped my Cocolino with his chair and broke off the connector.
That wasn't nice!!!! :angryfire::uzi:
Hope you get 'er fixed! :D
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Whilst the V5 SCSI2SD is stable and reliable for me, i upgraded it a while back to the latest firmware and it is now incredibly slow. I'm using it on an Apollo 2030 which I know is a rubbish controller anyway, but it's annoying that I upgraded the firmware to achieve a slower speed, we're talking...200kb/s (booting takes an age) and the older firmware versions don't seem to be available anymore.
Sure they are. What are you talking about? See http://www.codesrc.com/files/scsi2sd
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I'm using an ACard SCSI-to-IDE bridge on my A2000/Blizzard 2060 and I get about 4 to 4.5MB/sec with an old 2 GIG ide drive. I think the 2060scsi.device can do faster so I maybe will try a different hard drive to see if I can get it faster.
are you in synchronous mode ?
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On other threads I have documented my experiences with scsi2sd C6. On A2091 with 14mhz hack and GuruROM, was able to get consistent txfer rates of 2.9mb/sec across zii bus to a gvp 40mhz 030 combo card. The combo card onboard scsi was not as fast, believe it or not.
Now I am using the same a2091 setup with a pp&s a2000/040@33mhz., So my txfer rates dropped to around 1.85mb/sec.
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At VCF SE 5.0, we tested the SCSI2SD 6.0 on a Blizzard 1260 with the 1230 SCSI, booting and with SCSIBench. I'm not sure if the video of the results have been posted, yet.
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Get an ACARD 7720 (or a 7722 if you know how to desolder and reflash the ROM) and use a small IDE DOM with it. Its an awesome combo.
ACard has a total racket on the SCSI<->IDE adapters. There's no way in 2017 that these couldn't be made more cheaply. It's really too bad that there aren't any enterprising hardware hackers out there making competition for these.
I have several machines I'd love to add IDE devices to that are purely SCSI; some Amiga and some Macintosh. But at $220+ I can barely even consider buying one.
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@nyteschayde,
Yeh, on all flavors. The one for UW SCSI to SATA is a fortune also!
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@nyteschayde,
Yeh, on all flavors. The one for UW SCSI to SATA is a fortune also!
Yup. I ordered 10 direct from Acard (well, as direct as possible, through a tier distributor.) I'm about to put what I have left of them up (both SATA and ATAPI.) Amazes me how pricey they're going to have to be.
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@LoadWB,
Let me know, I may want one for my CSMK3, depending on cost and shipping.
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Keep an eye out on eBay,
I picked up 4 Acard 7720uw's for $60 each a few months ago. ACard has a total racket on the SCSI<->IDE adapters. There's no way in 2017 that these couldn't be made more cheaply. It's really too bad that there aren't any enterprising hardware hackers out there making competition for these.
I have several machines I'd love to add IDE devices to that are purely SCSI; some Amiga and some Macintosh. But at $220+ I can barely even consider buying one.
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Keep an eye out on eBay,
I picked up 4 Acard 7720uw's for $60 each a few months ago.
I made mention a few months ago, and if I don't get them up before I leave Thursday I will next week when I get back.
For the price I paid to have them made (they are only made on-demand in 10s) and shipped I definitely can't meet $60 for the SATA-HDD models. I have a few requests already and I'll be filling those before I post them up for general consumption -- I just ask a little patience while I have family in town and I'm having to re-integrate my office as my gov't contract ended (abruptly) just a couple of weeks ago.
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This thread began discussing backing up and I thought I would just comment. I still run all conventional hard drives both IDE and SCSI. I have always kept full copies of my computers Workbench on a ZIP disk. I have them all. Generally I have Workbench on a second Volume or disk and if there is an issue I just format the dodgy partition and simply copy back my current version of the Workbench. I also have my Amigas networked to PCs and have for some considerable time kept full copies of archives of my Amiga hard drives on PC disks and burnt to CDs. All of which can be seen and read by my Amigas.
I still await the dreaded day when my hard drives fail, but hasn't happened yet. I still have XT drives on 590s running.
The truth is I very rarely ever need to reinstall anything. I dunno, it just keeps working. Amiga files being so small it takes no time to get all of the Workbench onto a USb stick or Passport. The trick is the networking cus once you have an 'out' doesn't matter how slow the mule is they always turn up in an emergency.
Maybe one day I'll use these new fangled flash card thingys. Or not. Probably not. I have like a cupboard full of hard drives and a drawer full of 2.5" drives. I like the sound of a hard drive, I can sense the machine is alive when I hear the disk activity. I can read a lot into whats happening on a machine by the sounds they make. Just doesn't feel right, camera memory in a computer. The one A2000 I have gives out a wonderful trill noise from the hard drive when she boots. The A1200 has always made a reset kinda churn just after boot and the Viper gives out a single barely audable ding as it settles in for the day.
Just my thoughts.
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Well, aren't you just a old fart! HAHA joking here. I understand what you mean, My a4000 runs 24/7 and when i went to ssd i couldn't sleep due to lack of hd noise..Go figure. But as time went on fan noise and loud 15K hd's started to bug me and i worked making stuff quieter. I still like hd and floppy noise and some machines still use conventional hd's.
Going to scsi card readers and flash cards has some big benifeits:
They are silent(why we have indicator light these days instead of hd noise lol).
they use almost no power, milliamps in most cases.Easy on old psu's.
take up 1/4 the space sometimes(well scsi card reader is 3.5" form factor)
they have near instant access time(CF's) unlike hd's..it makes it feel snappier.
they generally dont fail often. I am still using some sandisk cards from 15+ years ago.
the sandisk extreme have a lifetime warranty also.
i converted my a590 side car to scsi card reader, the gvp turbo530 with acard +cf, and the alfadata ram+ide to CF.
i keep a load of old scsi hd's,floppys,cdroms etc. never know when i need one,great for testing. many of my machines still have cd burners/drives.
As for backups, there is no excuse to not backup amigas these days,its so easy now.
I keep backups on many machines as well as cf's and hd's. i have many old backups on cd's that still work.
never cared for zips, Iomega drives had a good rep for failures ;) I did use syquest carts for many years in the early days without troubles.
This thread began discussing backing up and I thought I would just comment. I still run all conventional hard drives both IDE and SCSI. I have always kept full copies of my computers Workbench on a ZIP disk. I have them all. Generally I have Workbench on a second Volume or disk and if there is an issue I just format the dodgy partition and simply copy back my current version of the Workbench. I also have my Amigas networked to PCs and have for some considerable time kept full copies of archives of my Amiga hard drives on PC disks and burnt to CDs. All of which can be seen and read by my Amigas.
I still await the dreaded day when my hard drives fail, but hasn't happened yet. I still have XT drives on 590s running.
The truth is I very rarely ever need to reinstall anything. I dunno, it just keeps working. Amiga files being so small it takes no time to get all of the Workbench onto a USb stick or Passport. The trick is the networking cus once you have an 'out' doesn't matter how slow the mule is they always turn up in an emergency.
Maybe one day I'll use these new fangled flash card thingys. Or not. Probably not. I have like a cupboard full of hard drives and a drawer full of 2.5" drives. I like the sound of a hard drive, I can sense the machine is alive when I hear the disk activity. I can read a lot into whats happening on a machine by the sounds they make. Just doesn't feel right, camera memory in a computer. The one A2000 I have gives out a wonderful trill noise from the hard drive when she boots. The A1200 has always made a reset kinda churn just after boot and the Viper gives out a single barely audable ding as it settles in for the day.
Just my thoughts.
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I use smb-handler to a NAS to run my backups. It's not always stable, but it works. I've also used a USB stick and when I moved my system from the 18GB SCSI drive to the 120GB SSD I used the SSD on USB as the copy destination.
That is one thing that bothers me, though, is the absolutely and total silence of the system, now. The only reassuring sound is the floppy drive seek. Mind you, the 1200 has had its DoM for many years now so I did have a little forewarning.