Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga community support ideas => Topic started by: Lionheart on January 10, 2017, 05:40:30 PM
-
Just out of curiosity, how many of you would be willing to purchase AmigaOS if it was available on ARM, x86, or both?
-
I voted only PPC - I would think about a X86/ARM release if it supports seemless integration of 68k and PowerPC emulation via a hypothetical "Petunia NG".
-
I voted x86, as a huge fan of Amithlon I've seen what the x86 processor can do running AmigaOS and that was a mix of 68k emulation and native x86. Would love to see even more native x86 implementation of AOS.
-
I'd only be bothered about seamless 68k emulation. How much OS4 specific software do we have that the original developer has vanished or the code isn't open?
PPC emulation would be nice but not essential.
-
AMD Ryzen with a Vega GFX board would be nice.
Kamelito
PS x86 surely not ADM64 yep.
-
For me personally it's about the Amiga experience. That special something which was the combination of hardware, OS and software. And here now in 2017 for me that is the OS. I can't foresee another gold-rush time where hardware might again play a part in a 'new' computer though. I sometimes wonder if there had been an x86 Amiga OS developed towards the end of the 90's whether it would have carried more weight along the lines of Linux distros since then.... wishful thinking.
-
It's not even monday!
-
I said x86, but I guess I already have that and way better performance than any actual "Amiga" machine with any cheap i5 or i7 machine I come across and throw AmiKit on.
There is absolutely no software available only for OS4 machines that makes them worth the price of entry, I believe I'd be embittered if I spent that kind of money on such a machine and found it less capable than my cellphone. However, if I could run the newest OS (and yes, seamless 68k would be required for consideration) on the machine on my desk right now I'd definitely consider it.
Sorry for the bluntness, but I've (finally) gotten to the point where I feel computers should "just work" and nothing about NG Amiga machines (or the OS) give me the impression they can.
-
@tone007
works for me, but different folks have different needs, i guess. anyway one of these days emulation will become fast enough to where this discussion becomes moot. ;)
-- eliyahu
-
Absolutely not, because I have ZERO interest in AmigaOS (apart from using it on my A1200, because there's no good alternative).
-
I'd pay a bit to run it on a cheap ARM platform, I'm sure plenty of others would too, if only for the curiosity value. Obviously the higher the cost, the lower the curiosity.
I do know that I will never buy a modern PPC Amiga, so the current state of play is no sale of AmigaOS4.
People have been crying for AmigaOS on ARM for over a decade though, it falls on deaf ears.
-
No, I have no desire to buy AmigaOS, for any platform.
If Linux did not exist, AmigaOS might be a sensible choice for x86 legacy hardware. Linux does exist.
ARM isn't quite a hardware architecutre of processor as such, so I'm a bit puzzled where you got that idea from. If you mean porting it to the Raspberry Pi, then yes, that might change things a lot...
... oh wait, you can also get Linux for Raspberry Pi. Even real time variants, which was ideally what the Amiga experience was supposed to be, and never quite managed to do.
Trying to be a bit more positive... I think what the developers need to do is find a use for which AmigaOS a really good choice, find the hardware needed, and write for that.
If you want a suggestion - 3D printing and CAM. Robotics. That has quite a bit of native support already, from the 3D design side. it's just that nobody tried the Amiga for doing that sort of stuff. Least, not that I know about. It's certainly a growing market, so if you can get your foot in it, you should do OK.
The vast majority of 3D printers use an 8 bit Arduino Mega, and quite frankly, it sucks when it comes to precise calculation. It's good enough for current use but it's a dead end for higher res printing at high speed. Get AmigaDOS on the Pi, that should change both scenes dramatically. Even a cut down version for just embedded applications. That sort of development tool usually costs $$$, it shoudd be a way to get a fair price for your product, if you are the only people selling Pis with an embedded controller OS and control hardware aimed at robotics. You could even make the dev tools freely available and just supply the conditioned Pis.
16 and 32 bit controllers for 3D printers typically retail for about $120 upwards. There are some ch,eaper alternatives that were built to the wrong spec, but that's the market, and it's not hard to compete with that if you build and supply a control Hat around the Pi.
Currently, there's an awful lot of people plugging 32 bit Arduinos into old 8 bit control Hats and blowing them up. The market is crying out for a dedicated, cheap, and reliable controller. Pi is the brains. Design the Hat. Program for Amiga.
Most of the controller firmware is open source C. "Marlin", to be precise. It's not bad, but on an 8 bit Arduino, it jogs just to keep track of where the print head is.
-
Just out of curiosity, how many of you would be willing to purchase AmigaOS if it was available on ARM, x86, or both?
Excuse me, but you sir.... forgot to put pancakes as an option..... shame on you. :D
I would enjoy using amiga os on any platform, just someone make it possible. But id mostly would want to see it on x86 platform. Easy and redably available components. and i have bucketloads of HW laying around. puting it to good use would be desirable.
-
well I already have AmigaOS on my 68k and PPC miggies and Amikit/AROS serves my needs for 68k on the road so wouldn't by either ARM or x86.
-
[youtube]FTjmtPvBsbw[/youtube](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTjmtPvBsbw)(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTjmtPvBsbw)
-
Hell yeah!!
Those are what I call supportable initiatives. It wouldn't be cheap and it wouldn't happen quickly, but it should be something that is pursued.
This is coming from someone who is the kind of geek that gets off on microprocessor architecture. I love the Power ISA, and I'm a big fan of SPARC and MIPS. But just because I have a soft spot for these things does not mean that the right choice for a viable computing platform is one of these esoteric CPUs. If intel x86 isn't your "cup of tea" then you have ARM; Those are the only choices.
I also get really nerdy about Operating System Architectures. I'm a big fan of BeOS and QNX, but I would still like to see AmigaOS play a more significant role in today's computing market.
-
It would have to be x86 for me. I don't understand all the fuss about ARM. If you going to change architecture at this point you might as well go for the most powerful. x86 boards also tend to PCI and PCIe slots, it's better to be able to re-use as much driver code as possible for video, audio and network.
-
Am I missing something? There's a killer app only available on AmigaOS that you can't get with a free operating system?
WHY would anybody pay for AmigaDOS as opposed to installing Linux for free? That is the question. Get the answer right, and you might just sell AmigaOS to new users.
3D printing is moving to 32 bit processors. AmigaOS is still (largely) a 32 bit operating system. This does make sense, at least to investigate.
-
YAM is my killer app. I do most of the rest over SSH anyway.
-
YAM is my killer app. I do most of the rest over SSH anyway.
So what ssh client are you using?
-
Am I missing something? There's a killer app only available on AmigaOS that you can't get with a free operating system?
WHY would anybody pay for AmigaDOS as opposed to installing Linux for free? That is the question. Get the answer right, and you might just sell AmigaOS to new users.
3D printing is moving to 32 bit processors. AmigaOS is still (largely) a 32 bit operating system. This does make sense, at least to investigate.
Well, it's a lot easier to convince people to pay for just an OS that they can run on their existing machine, rather than convincing them to buy a $2,000 computer so they can run said OS.
I think if the OS cost <$100, many would try it out of sheer curiosity.
I really see no reason to stick with PPC for AmigaOS. X86 (and ARM) won. I think any mid-range X86 CPU and above could emulate PPC at acceptable speed. Apple did it on Core 2 CPUs back in 2006. It wouldn't have to emulate an entire system (like UAE), just translate the CPU instructions.
-
It would have to be x86 for me. I don't understand all the fuss about ARM. If you going to change architecture at this point you might as well go for the most powerful.
With AmigaOS API, if you change the architecture from M68k (big endian) to PPC (also big endian), you can provide a CPU emulator to run system-friendly legacy applications - just like AmigaOS4 or MorphOS did.
If you change the architecture to x86 (little endian), you can't - you can only emulate the whole legacy machine (UAE), like AROS does.
The OS for ARM CPU can be either big or little edian, depending on the compiler toolchain; CPU supports both endianness. This is what makes ARM particularly interesting.
-
Well, it's a lot easier to convince people to pay for just an OS that they can run on their existing machine, rather than convincing them to buy a $2,000 computer so they can run said OS.
I think if the OS cost <$100, many would try it out of sheer curiosity..
I guess you're right, up to a point. If there are Amiga apps that they just can't get to look at any other way, that might persuade people to have a try.
There is a certain novelty way involved. I just wonder how many people have $100 spare to satisfy their curiosity. Some people will, no denying that... and it's not like they couldn't have Linux as well. Or any other OS.
-
With AmigaOS API, if you change the architecture from M68k (big endian) to PPC (also big endian), you can provide a CPU emulator to run system-friendly legacy applications - just like AmigaOS4 or MorphOS did.
If you change the architecture to x86 (little endian), you can't - you can only emulate the whole legacy machine (UAE), like AROS does.
The OS for ARM CPU can be either big or little edian, depending on the compiler toolchain; CPU supports both endianness. This is what makes ARM particularly interesting.
Or they can do it like Amithlon did it.
-
Just out of curiosity, how many of you would be willing to purchase AmigaOS if it was available on ARM, x86, or both?
Hard to say. It would definitely lower my barrier to potentially look into this, but frankly, it is a bit too late for this anyhow. Back then, i.e. when the migration from 68K to another hardware was ongoing, it might have been a slim chance to attempt this, but nowadays... I don't know.
My personal motivation for playing with the Os is really as a retro platform, and not as a serious competitor to an up-to-date system.
-
I'd like to get AROS and/or Amiga OS on my Rasberry Pi 3b and Wii U. I've hacked my Wii U (following FlimFlam's guide) and can run any software on it. Can even make it boot directly into an alternate OS...
Supporting fixed hardware like a Pi or Wii U means driver porting can be fine tuned! I hate running AROS on my PC because of driver issues.
-
I'd probably buy a copy for both or either, but in my case, being stuck in the past, it would largely be a curiosity or something to play with (much like OS/2 and Solaris).
-
I voted ARM myself. There just aren't enough/any apps right now that I need to put AROS/Amiga on a x86 system, I'll need linux for apache, owncloud, mplabx, libreoffice, viking, etc
The Pi's and other ARM's, while they can run Linux they are not the speediest in the world, so why not make Amiga a lightweight OS for a lightweight board, there could be a market there.
-
68080 all the way. Whether it be FPGA or ASIC, I am fed up with the other ones.
-
Or they can do it like Amithlon did it.
Which is basically a stripped-down Linux running a stripped-down UAE...
-
Well, I bought OS4.1FE but probably will never install it on a PeeCee. I voted Only PPC but will install it on real hardware if they would just bring back the Moana project! Yea, that's gonna happen! :lol:
-
Which is basically a stripped-down Linux running a stripped-down UAE...
Not even close.
-
https://amithlonblog.wordpress.com/amithlonfaq/
It is “just” an emulator. It boots up (from a CD, although other boot methods are possible), then starts an m68k emulator task, sets up the hardware for it, loads the rom images into memory, and then pretty much hands control over to the emulated 68k, which just runs like it would in any “real” Amiga
So what we do for gfx card access is to use the linux framebuffer devices. That lets us use just about any gfx card to some degree, and a number of directly supported cards in very nice ways. That’s only possible because some nice people already wrote really good drivers for the linux kernel, and all we have to do is to make some calls to those drivers.
The same goes for IDE/SCSI access. The linux kernel is full of drivers for an incredible range of IDE/SCSI controllers.
Authors took UAE, got rid of the Amiga chipset emulation to gain speed, provided "drivers" to some Linux kernel APIs, and bundled this with AmigaOS 3.9... the only innovation there was API (and, as far as I know, a customized GCC) to integrate x86 and m68k code, but not much of such code was eventually written.
-
I voted only PPC - I would think about a X86/ARM release if it supports seemless integration of 68k and PowerPC emulation via a hypothetical "Petunia NG".
I've actually spoken with the author of Petunia, and according to his blog on E-UAE JIT...
"So, what is the bottom line of my ramblings? This JIT implementation was made for PowerPC, but it can be changed to support multiple processor architectures. I don't think that it would be too complicated, the majority of the code can be reused, it just needs some restructuring."
He has informed me that it would it would be possible to create an x86 compiler from the E-UAE JIT engine he had done for PPC.
He also states in his blog on E-UAE JIT that....
"WinUAE, the Amiga emulator for Windows have JIT compiling for many years now. Unfortunately, it is closely tied to the intel x86 architecture, because the most efficient way of implementing the JIT compiling is kinda similar to an actual programming language compiler: the end result is machine code, which is executed directly. Although it is possible to implement a processor independent JIT compiler, but to squeeze more speed from the executed code in a general compiling model is much more complex.Recent Amiga (like) computers are using PowerPC processors, porting the WinUAE solution to PPC processor would be closely as hard to do as implementing a brand new solution. Not to mention that there are special requirements from the environment of the emulation, that cannot be simply resolved."
Hell yeah!!
Those are what I call supportable initiatives. It wouldn't be cheap and it wouldn't happen quickly, but it should be something that is pursued.
This is coming from someone who is the kind of geek that gets off on microprocessor architecture. I love the Power ISA, and I'm a big fan of SPARC and MIPS. But just because I have a soft spot for these things does not mean that the right choice for a viable computing platform is one of these esoteric CPUs. If intel x86 isn't your "cup of tea" then you have ARM; Those are the only choices.
I also get really nerdy about Operating System Architectures. I'm a big fan of BeOS and QNX, but I would still like to see AmigaOS play a more significant role in today's computing market.
I've actually used BeOS and its derivative Haiku. I'm also a moderator on a BSD forum. :) Apple actually uses BSD in OSX, but instead of using drivers from FreeBSD they design their own using I/O kit. Apple has also contributed back code to FreeBSD for stuff like symmetric multiprocessing (SMP). As a matter of fact, it would be easier to replace the core of AmigaOS with BSD and rewrite the custom GUI to run on top of it. AmigaOS would go from using a slower micro kernel to a faster monolithic kernel with memory protection support. Hyperion doesn't even own the kernel, ExecSG, for OS4. They pay to license it from the Friedens. Hyperion wouldn't have to pay to use BSD as the BSD license allows them to use it for free without having to contribute anything back.
"The BSD license means that you can take the code in FreeBSD and do whatever you want with it, as long as you don't sue us or pretend that you wrote it. Without the legal obligation to share code, it is possible to use FreeBSD code almost anywhere. Some companies, almost certainly, will take our code, modify it, and never give anything back. They are free to do this, however many don't."
Source: freebsd.org
By replacing ExecSG with a BSD kernel, Hyperion OS4 could also use BSD drivers and gain close to the same level of driver support as Linux.
68080 all the way. Whether it be FPGA or ASIC, I am fed up with the other ones.
Never heard of a 68080. I know there was a 68070 made by Phillips though but it was a custom 68000 for their CDi.
-
68080 is the name the Apollo team landed on for their 68k core. I tend to use AC 68EC080, AC as in Apollo Core, EC because as of now it lacks FPU and MMU and very much resembles a 68EC040 for existing 68k software.
-
I voted for ARM as that means Raspberry Pi and that means a large potential user base which can only be a good thing, right? Almost forgotten (albeit unfairly) systems like RiscOS have had something of a revival thanks to the RPi hardware.
-
Am I missing something? There's a killer app only available on AmigaOS that you can't get with a free operating system?
WHY would anybody pay for AmigaDOS as opposed to installing Linux for free? That is the question. Get the answer right, and you might just sell AmigaOS to new users.
3D printing is moving to 32 bit processors. AmigaOS is still (largely) a 32 bit operating system. This does make sense, at least to investigate.
The killer app is yet to be developed, but to answer your other question: Because Linux is a steaming pile of dog %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! upon which sits a steaming pile of horse %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!.
The only redeeming quality of Linux is that it is free. I use it a lot and have since around 1997, 95% of my servers today are running Linux; Mixture of openSuSE, CentOS, Ubuntu, and I think there's some Fedora somewhere. Yet every time I have to deal with it I recoil at the prospect. Linux is yet another example of how you don't have to be the most elegant or efficient to be the leader. Just like with Microsoft in the '90s; Its a critical mass thing, not an indication that it is any good or a pleasure to use.
-
For both running OS4 or MorphOS.
-
My vote would be for effort on PPC os4 to cease and for a renewed back porting effort made to 68xxxx.
The reason: installed user base. I would also Persue partnerships with the guys making vampire / appolo so that cheap upgrades for amigas were available with real OS functionality to follow.
Amiga OS is never going to make it in its own right - porting to x86 is somthing I would have advocated for back when the decision to go ppc was made but not now.
I think a real resurgence of the scene could be made to happen if cheap accelerators were avaialable along with os upgrades to match.
People would be able to upgrade existing hardware and eventually new hardware would get released - similar to fpga projects that give us compatible, but upgraded features.
-
I would buy the x86 version. I did buy Amiga Forever 2016 specifically so that I could run AOS4 PPC on it.
-
Interesting to see that ppc is the least attractive option to people.
Also, in regards to endian issues, no, big endian x86 isn't impossible. I know people like to parrot that misinformation, but its simply not true. Heck, there's even instructions in x86-64 instruction set to dictate byte ordering.
-
My vote would be for effort on PPC os4 to cease and for a renewed back porting effort made to 68xxxx.
The reason: installed user base. I would also Persue partnerships with the guys making vampire / appolo so that cheap upgrades for amigas were available with real OS functionality to follow.
2017 is going to be interesting. After the V1200 Vampire there is the stand-alone board. Will be interesting to see what sells more volume - Vampires or Amiga Ones.
-
WHY would anybody pay for AmigaDOS as opposed to installing Linux for free?
The only experience worse than Linux on a desktop, is Linux on a laptop.
It's ok for routers etc, although it was certainly better when routers used decent embedded operating systems.
If there was a usb bootable x64 amigaos with built in 68k and ppc backward compatibility and it was able to support all hardware%&$#?@!that I needed then I'd probably chip in some money.
A cheap amiga branded x64 fixed functionality platform that came bundled with amigaos might also be tempting.
I can't see raspberry pi users etc going for it though.
-
btw, 68k, or backward compatible 68k type softcore option is missing ;) would probably gather most votes anyway.
-
btw, 68k, or backward compatible 68k type softcore option is missing ;) would probably gather most votes anyway.
Trying to run OS4 on a 68K would be about as painful as running MUI4 or 5 on a 68K.
Vampire may soften that, but I'm not likely to give up OS3.X in favor of OS4 on legacy hardware.
-
I don't get it. What's so great about AmigaOS? Amigas are certainly the best retro computers, hands down, and they're just awesome, but the OS? I just don't see what's so great about it.
-
I don't get it. What's so great about AmigaOS? Amigas are certainly the best retro computers, hands down, and they're just awesome, but the OS? I just don't see what's so great about it.
It's different. That's my main attraction anyway. It's very fun too.
-
Trying to run OS4 on a 68K would be about as painful as running MUI4 or 5 on a 68K.
Vampire may soften that, but I'm not likely to give up OS3.X in favor of OS4 on legacy hardware.
i agree. but nevertheless given that option, people might probably chosse it anyway;)
-
Trying to run OS4 on a 68K would be about as painful as running MUI4 or 5 on a 68K.
Vampire may soften that, but I'm not likely to give up OS3.X in favor of OS4 on legacy hardware.
It'd run a darn sight faster on UAE than the PPC build does though at least Jim. :)
-
I don't get it. What's so great about AmigaOS? Amigas are certainly the best retro computers, hands down, and they're just awesome, but the OS? I just don't see what's so great about it.
That's really not the point.
The OP isn't asking whether a 30-year-old operating system is segment-leading or if it's a viable replacement for other options.
The question is whether or not you would pay to have the ability to run the OS on another architecture. The "why" is immaterial.
-
I repeat, "why is that the fault of Linux"?
Oh I get it....you want to be a pedant.
If you want any discussion about Linux limited to the kernel, then say so. But a kernel is not an operating system.
If its not some amateurish log in screen (on its most popular distro BTW) its something else in the operating system that is a joke.
Or do you think users should now de-install the default log-in manager, install something that someone may have rolled in the bedroom and risks breaking the system? Because you know "Linux isn't Linux isn't Linux and can be any flavour you want" TM?
Another classic example of Linux wasting time people's time trying to get it to do RST* (Really Simple Things). Like a login manager that actually makes sense by default..
-
Oh I get it....you want to be a pedant.
If you want any discussion about Linux limited to the kernel, then say so. But a kernel is not an operating system.
If its not some amateurish log in screen (on its most popular distro BTW) its something else in the operating system that is a joke.
Or do you think users should now de-install the default log-in manager, install something that someone may have rolled in the bedroom and risks breaking the system? Because you know "Linux isn't Linux isn't Linux and can be any flavour you want" TM?
Another classic example of Linux wasting time people's time trying to get it to do RST* (Really Simple Things). Like a login manager that actually makes sense by default..
If you can't even use correct words to mean what you want to say why on earth should anyone waste their time reading your twaddle?
As for your issue with MDM, my kids don't seem to have a problem with it but if they did they'd do what anyone with an ounce of intelligence would do and report it as an issue to the vendor's support dept and ask for it to be changed.
It's amazing the effect good genes and a proper upbringing have on a person's intelligence and ability to help themselves.
Please do go on making yourself look like a tit, it's hilarious.
-
If you can't even use correct words to mean what you want to say why on earth should anyone waste their time reading your twaddle?
As for your issue with MDM, my kids don't seem to have a problem with it but if they did they'd do what anyone with an ounce of intelligence would do and report it as an issue to the vendor's support dept and ask for it to be changed.
It's amazing the effect good genes and a proper upbringing have on a person's intelligence and ability to help themselves.
Please do go on making yourself look like a tit, it's hilarious.
pedant
noun
a person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules or with displaying academic learning
Colloquially known as a " nicholas".
-
pedant
noun
a person who is excessively concerned with minor details and rules or with displaying academic learning
Colloquially known as a " nicholas".
Fcukwitt.
-
@nicholas
Give it a rest will you?
Your passive aggressive attitude is making you appear the very adjectives you're trying to label others with.
The site isn't here for your sole, frankly obnoxious amusement.
-
@nicholas
Give it a rest will you?
Your passive aggressive attitude is making you appear the very adjectives you're trying to label others with.
The site isn't here for your sole, frankly obnoxious amusement.
Nothing passive about it.
-
Thats the #1 reason I switched to Linux. I was wasting so much time keeping windows updated and working. Linux has saved me so much time and frustration over the years by not breaking something every other update like Windows does, by not getting infected with malware despite not running as administrator. Just because one or two distros that try to be windows like have window like issues doesn't mean all of linux is like that. Or to put it simply just use with slackware already :)
A bit of time is spent by the rasbian maintainers taking debian and stripping it down to make it run efficiently on the Pi (one of the reasons I ruin slackware-arm on mine is its already efficient) so thats why I think a Amiga/AROS could find a fit in the Arm world as its already a lightweight OS.
A Raspberry Pi 3 bundled with an exclusive Amiga branded case and OS4.1 for ARM hardware locked to the mac address or similar like MorphOS is would be a great product.
If marketed properly and priced correctly but that never happens in this market sadly.
-
@thread
i've moved the off-topic linux discussions to a new thread (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=820503) per members' requests. please move your linux-related discussion there. further off-topic posts will be moved/deleted as needed.
also: there was a report about a post, and when i took a look i saw several posts with insults between two members. please remember such ad hominem attacks are contrary to the site terms of service and will result in a temporary ban if they continue.
-- eliyahu
-
It's different. That's my main attraction anyway. It's very fun too.
That's certainly a good point.
That's really not the point.
It is for me. Why? Because 68k can do much better than AOS, and it can do it faster too. Instead of making something better (hahaha lololol) they sell us software that's over 20 years old.