Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: QuikSanz on December 30, 2002, 01:41:14 AM
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Recently many software houses have gone public code. Mozilla, real, netscape, too many too remember. Maybe a online referance to the right books, material, etc. could help us non programing guys to get with the program and start some real progress.
Chris
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It would be great if more people siezed the initiative and started to learn how to program. It is truely rewarding and the Amiga is a programmer's dream (at least it's mine ;-) ).
The problem, from what I can tell, is time and motivation. Skwaking about what programs are needed on the Amiga and what new features will need be in the next release of blah, blah, blah doesn't take much time and effort and is seldom very rewarding.
However, turning off the web browser and sitting down to a nice little command line compiler and text editor with a cup of joe, and a good programmer's reference is nearly impossible to get the average forum poster to do--even though it's one of the most rewarding things that you can accomplish with a computer.
Why is this? It's not like it is difficult to find a good programming package like Louise's GCC setup (http://www.innoidea.hu/subsites/amiga/developer/phpwebdev.php) or H&P's StormC++ 3 on theDev CD (http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/Web_store/web_store.cgi?page=catalog/software/development/new_amigadev.html&cart_id=4421375_6558) . Documentation abounds in Louise's web site (http://www.innoidea.hu/subsites/amiga/developer/phpwebdev.php) and in his archive (http://www.innoidea.hu/subsites/amiga/developer/FILES/HardFiles/gcc111-files.tgz), and the Dev CD (http://www.softhut.com/cgi-bin/test/Web_store/web_store.cgi?page=catalog/software/development/new_amigadev.html&cart_id=4421375_6558) doesn't cost that much. So what is it about real, nuts and bolts programming that frightens away the average Amiga user?
:-?
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Thanks for the links and info. Too bad that people don't want to get into this, but maybe there are more out there than one would think. Maybe we could have some of these referances & links on A-Org on a developer directory just to make it as available as possable. Heck, if an old guy like me can get interested, why not others?
Chris
PS: downloading gcc files while I write this, I love it.
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Somehow I got the feeling that (allmost) every A.org visitor capable of
and interested in developing is allready involved in some kind of project.
Hey there are even some who are completly clueless, but still
start big porting-efforts (which go nowhere ;-) )
Amiga(Open)Office is the perfect example :-x
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You know, I think you're right Kronos. Most of the people who are capable are involved already. I guess that the thing that erks me is that there are so many people willing to complain and so few that are willing to do anything. Much of it is just life I guess, but it is still pretty lame.
I guess that I wish more people had a "go-get-'em" attitude. QuikSanz has it right. QuikSanz, if you need any help learning let me know, I'll be glad to help.
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I'm not sure, but wasn't Dave_P (I hope I got the right person) looking to start a web page for Amiga 'ebooks'? Online books containing information on things like programming, tutorials for , and technical reference. If he ever gets around to putting it up, it might turn into the kind of place QuikSanz is invisioning.
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Sounds like we need more people that are capable
@ Kronos, a little negative are we today. What am I saying? today? Huh. Some of us out here do want to learn more than just winblows.
@ Shades O'Gray, Aarg, your right on the money. A quick referance to good stuff could encourage alot of people. After all the Amiga comunity consists of more than just users.
Chris
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@ Sidewinder,
Thanks for support & good spirit. I'll PM you for some direction. It's not easy knowing where to start. My machine should be very capable, see profile. Thanks in advance.
Chris
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Kronos wrote:
Amiga(Open)Office is the perfect example :-x
Yes, that is very sad! Even as I have tons of toolbar gfx for it on my harddisk :-(
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@QuikSanz
Negative ? Me ??? :-o Who brought you to that idea ? :-D :-D
It is just that I see "Amiga" (incl. AROS,MOS...) with a little bit of realism instead
of the typical "we are back and gone counquer the world"-fans.
I never said that you couldn't learn, but someone who starts on the Amiga-API
today should better not speak about big port like Mozilla for the next 2-3 years.
@Mason
Well, that was the way it had to go with only 3 or 4 really experienced coders.
OT: Thought about doing a smaller Icon for ToT ?
The orginal one is just a bit big to be fitted into AmiDock :-P
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someone who starts to program C/C++/etc today...should not count on doing any worthwile for a while :P....it isnt like learning to ride a bike...you can and do forget...and no it isnt easy to learn to be good at very quickly...
though I do think having better docs is important... and Amiga needs to be better documented in general... DaveP's idea is good...if it was his idea...
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if this project.. ie collecting and putting up documentations and reference material need a place to host it (for free) I have a server that can do the job. I've been looking to start coding for a long long time now, but without anyone acting as a .. hm.. ball plank, it's not easy.
Having good material helps alot, having someone to ask for directions when you're totally stuck is even better. I like this initiative and I do hope that it comes into fruition. Some months ago, I was looking for good material, but I didn't find alot, unfortunately..
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I start to learn how to code in C 2 weeks ago :-D , i did some little progrs in ASM but it was long time ago in a Z80 CPU, and to start i want to try a little ports in MOS camp for now.
I have a GCC setup in a Winbox computer, and everything is working fine, i already tryed in my Amiga but sadly VBCC and GCC never worked fine, maybe my lack of skills in this enviroment :-) , i allways get erros about some crap missing file :-(.
Now i have my Pegasos preordered and as soon as i have my mobo working here i will try to setup a GCC MOS, and start to play with.
the bad part about this is, i already joined a MOS-Dev-list, and reading the msgs from this list i start to be come afraid to setup a working GCC package for MOS.
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Kronos wrote:
OT: Thought about doing a smaller Icon for ToT ?
The orginal one is just a bit big to be fitted into AmiDock :-P
Please have a look at this (http://www.masonicons.de/ToT-Client.info) one :-D
It should perfectly fit for AmiDock (46 x 46 pixels).
Nothing real good on TV tonight ;-)
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@mason
Thanks, but somehow I thought you would come up with something
a bit more hmmm innovative ? ;-)
@DDJPPC
The setup for GG-MOS is even harder than GG-68k, and a working GG-68k
is strongly advised before you start installing it.
1st you will need to find a complete GG, which ain't easy as the main.-server
is down (any mirrors ?). Following the instructions should be possible.
Alternatives are the old GeekGadgets-CDs which also came with the AOS-
includes, or just buy the latest GoldED which has full GG-support.
I'm waiting to get my copy every day, so that I can get rid of the need for
an extra shell. GoldED is running next to perfect on the Peg, and eventhough
I don't have the JIT (only BT2 here) I did set syntax-highlighting to the
"over 1ghz"-setting without getting any slow-downs.
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Hello
In my opinion, Amiga Inc / Hyperion / others should port GNU libraries, QT, Bristol, MKFS, Dynamite, other libraries and portability tools to AmigaOS / AmigaDE. Using the portability tools, it is easy to port several software to AmigaOS /DE.
Other thing is the device driver and book problems.
Device Driver: perhaps portable device driver such as project UDI will be helpful. Perhaps someone should write e-book about programming in Amiga OS/DE.
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Kronos wrote:
Thanks, but somehow I thought you would come up with something a bit more hmmm innovative ? ;-)
Not at this time :shocked:
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A few extra words:
Missing files could be a result of wrong arguments to gcc.
You should normaly compile with something like:
g++ (or gcc) -noixemul -m68030 -m68881 -c
For every source and:
g++ -noixemul -lm -o myprog *.o
to link.
Atleast that worked for me :-)
I had very little experience with GG before, but setting up a working
MOS-GG took only 4 days which were mainly waiting for the right advice
from the maillist :-P
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Could the missing files be the result of bad or missing links
in the libs? That could (possibly) happen in a bad install
or if you've copied your GCC setup.
It could be a header file or directory problem. By default,
GCC looks for non-GCC includes in /usr/local (probably
GG:usr/local/ on your Amiga, but some of the documentation
says to put the Amiga header files in GG:os_include. That
would cause a problem if you're calling AmigaOS routines.
Perhaps the original questioner can tell us which files are
reported missing (and what his compilation command line was)?
Hope this helps.
Walter
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Sorry this is a slightly OT, but has anyone ever had anything to do
with Motorola HC11 (embedded microprocessor) programming under
AmigaOS?
There's an assembly compiler on Aminet, but unfortunately it
translates certain assembly instructions into the wrong hex codes,
making it unusable :(
So I'm stuck using a MSDOS compiler under emulation.
Anyone been down this track too?
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ive been wanting to get into ami coding for ages and only just recently NEARLY got to grips with VBCC, the problem is that that isnt C++ compliant (but includes a lot of the "styles" such as // usage )
however i'm a budding games coder and i have a tiny version of MS devstudio on the pc and it's bloody nice, the editor isnt the best in the world but it does do syntax colouring, file browsing and, best of all... class browsing (all those C++ classes lined up with a tree that allows you to click on their member functions to get to them) ... its got a very usefull search tool , which takes you to entries when you click on them and the builder does the same with errors... click on "missing ; or something like that" and it takes you to the offending line in the offending file pronto! ... it has a debugger too that i still havent fully got to grips with but i can now get the debugger to at least name the class::function that the program went BANG in the middle of ... usually i forgot to NULL a pointer :-)
can i do all that with golded, vbcc and the shell? nope... but then i suppose you're all gonna tell me it's not REAL coding if you dont... bloody sado's the lot of you!!!!
(that last bit was british humour and not actually an insult)
:)
cycloid
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>Perhaps the original questioner can tell us which
>files are reported missing (and what his
>compilation command line was)?
wath i did was, download the GCC package "2.95.3" from aminet, and follow the readme file with have instructions on how to install it in Amiga computers,
i have compiled some progs, but even simple ones, get some erros about missing files and sintax, and i do the same in PCwinbox, and everthing is working, i have 25 progs compiled, many very little but not even one error, and this progs come from the tutorial i´m using to learn, so to me learn C without a working environment become a hard task :-), right now i can´t remenber wath files is missing, and i have my Amiga disassembled for some weeks :-(, but at least i will get my Pegasos soon "i guess ;-)".
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> ive been wanting to get into ami coding for ages and only just recently
> NEARLY got to grips with VBCC, the problem is that that isnt C++ compliant
I haven't used VBCC, but it advertizes itself as a C compiler only. G++
in the GeekGadgets (ftp.geekgadgets.org is back up, or try
ftp.uni-erlangen.de/pub/source/geekgadgets) package seems to work OK.
There are probably no comprehensive class browsers, BUT Aminet has an
old file called "ctg.lha" (C++ tree generator) which might be worth a
look. Don't know about GoldEd plugins or AmiIDE (Jens Langner).
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Castellen wrote:
Sorry this is a slightly OT, but has anyone ever had anything to do
with Motorola HC11 (embedded microprocessor) programming under
AmigaOS?
Yes... But it was quite many years ago. I did some single board systems with Amiga. Had Amiga PCB design software and we did HC11 assy coding on Amigas. ... I can't remember exactly what compiler we used at that time (might have been our own as we did couple of those) but I can ask around..
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@JoannaK:
Is there any neat PCB design s/w for the miggy a la Ultiboard? At school we're using Ultiboard and I like it (well....apart from the fact that is crashes way too much :-x ).
Anyway, I'm still a long way from doing any programming on the Amiga, still learning Object Pascal on the PeeCee.
okay...back to business
*opens Delphi book*
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It's been at least 7 years ago, as the last Amiga system I used was A3000. So I have no idea what there is nowdays with Amiga softwares. :-(
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@JoannaK:
Please, I'd really appreciate it if you could find out more about the
HC11 compiler you used.
I had been trying HC11dev from Aminet, but it generates the wrong hex
code for the JSR command. Probably other problems too, but that was
the first I noticed.
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@Anyone interested in Amiga programming
What kind of information do you need? Tutorials? Reference material? Example code? What is hindering your progress and what would you like to see as resources to help?
I'd be willing to write some tutorials or compiler some references, but I'd like to target a particular problem or problems so that my work is both helpful and useful.
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@Sidewinder:
Thanks for the friendly help!
One of these days I'm going to learn C, so than I can program anything
that has a C compiler for it.
So if you're offering, an easy beginners guide for someone who doesn't
know anything about C would be a good place to start :)
I'm pretty good with BASIC at the moment (who isn't?), and am
currently teaching myself HTML and HC11 assembly.
By the way, has anyone had any experience with setting up the Amiga
Apache webserver??
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@Sidewinder
>What kind of information do you need?
I know this questions is not targed to me but, i will be very happy to see some samples of open windows in wb and full screen also wath is the files needed to do so, maybe some little progs working with MUI interface etc. ;-)
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@Castellen and DDJPPC
Thanks for your input. I'm beginning the document now. I will start it as a beginners document, but try to use a more hand's on approach, instead of repeating verbatum everything that you can find in countless C programming books. Sort of an Amiga C programming by example or something. I'll let you know when I have a draft copy to read. If anyone else has things that they would like to see covered in the document please let me know.
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@ Castellen
I'm at Irc with our #1 coder at that time. there were 2 assemblers we used.
- Dasm (by Matt Dillon)
- Frankenstein (multi target assembler.. Can't remember author)
Try this (http://click.alltheweb.com/go2/2/atw/1c91CA65B9/MTUsSCxmdHA/ftp/ftp.eskimo.com/u/m/mzenier/frankasm.tgz) for Frankenstein and this (http://members.cox.net/rcolbert/dasm.htm) for dasm.
Can't quarantee those are latest versions, though.
(EDIT)
Of course those both are on Aminet too.. :-D
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Many thanks JoannaK,
I've downloaded those and will give them a try.
The documentation doesn't seem too flash, so there might be a bit of
guess work to start with :)
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No problem.. Let me know if you can't get them to work. I remember making quite decent softwares with them so they should work and make correct code.
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Castellan, I use the Imagecraft (http://www.imagecraft.com/software) HC11 compiler and IDE. It is pretty good, although it runs under Windows. It's more or less the only reason I use Windows these days.
There is a demo version on their website, I think it lasts for a month before timing out.
I spend a lot of time writing embedded software for the HC11, mainly in C. The few times I have to resort to assembler (like ISRs), I usually write it in C first, then modify the compiler's assembler output for speed.
tony
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Here (http://www.liquido2.com/tutorial) is the first section of my tutorial. I'd appreciate any constructive criticism you can offer.
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@Castellan
You should get a copy of Kernighan & Ritchie (The C Programming Language). A very good book, even though it's a few years old.
(wow, first post!)
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cycloid:
I've used the StormC IDE and although it's not like MS IDEs is quite nice... I've heard that Hisoft C++ interface is even nicer.
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Hi
One very, very important thing most people forget to include is (once the latest GCC is installed) step
by step guide to getting the Amiga NDK include files
working !!!!
This is the MAIN reason why potential developers are leaving !!
No PROPER documentation - for anything - even WITH the developer CD !!
Here is the problems I have with developer tools :
1) Latest GCC on Aminet - old version, no installer, too many confusing downloads.
2) no documentaion to get latest Amiga 3.9 NDK working in GCC.
3) no documentation on creating GUI with OS 3.5+ (reaction) in C. Not even on developer 2.1CD / 3.9 NDK.
4) Developer cd 2.1 mainly has code snippets scattered everywhere mainly for 3.1 gui elements.
No full applications, no step by step examples.
5) No documentation for creating GUI in ReActor - example given does not work.
6) Aminet mainly has GUI creaters for 3.1 at most, mostly consist of unstable, old software -shame really.
ps: personally I cannot get ClickTab function in ReActor. Emperor crashes in WinUAE - unusable.
7) most OS 3.5 features/gadget/classes undocumented for C programmers. Mostly have Autodocs nothing more. no examples.
8) Developer CDs Storm C 3 - examples don't compile - poor documentation to even use Storms IDE.
9) no developer FAQ, common error solutions etc.
I hate to say it but the Amiga development is NONE EXISTANT, a shambles to put it lightly.
I know lots of work ha been done, poor Olaf working on his own. I'd help if only I knew About Amiga C programming - chicken and the egg !!
Basically we shot ourselves in the foot concerning Amiga development.
Some people think throwing code snippets here and their is all that is needed, not even mentioning code dependancies that are broken. :(
Im sorry if I offend anyone. truth hurts. that is how I view the situation.
I know C, but the Amiga environment is a totaly different beast.
I hope my critizisms help improve the situation and stop people leaving the platform.
Later, asy
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Yes. Coders are in very short supply - Clickboom has been advertising for Amiga coders to work on their new Amiga titles for ages.
Looks like they have three games in development - Z (conversion of bitmap bros game), N2 (Followup to Napalm RTS game), and 666 (dunno what its about)
So if any 68K assembly coders are reading this and have some spare time and would like to get paid for their work they could do worse than get in touch with clickboom.
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Sidewinder wrote:
Here (http://www.liquido2.com/tutorial) is the first section of my tutorial. I'd appreciate any constructive criticism you can offer.
Well, I'm no programmer but I've read the introduction and lesson one and have to say I'm impressed by your down to earth approach.
Hell, I may even give it a try myself.
Well, after the mayhem and madness we call Hogmanay has died down, that is. ;-)
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DevCD 2.1 contain much useful information, but indeed it is not very useful for beginners.
Basically you need to learn C first and then look into DevCD. Even then you might have major problems.
All I can say is that you need to experiment and experiment some more. Also it would be useful if you can find some friendly coder from IRC (or your fav media) who will reply your (possibly even stupid) questions. Did I already say you need to experiment? Coding is the best way to learn coding... :-)
I had a friend who taught me the basics years ago, who I am forever grateful for his help. We used to sit together and code while the other watched (huh, sounds quite dull eh?). Anyway, few years ago they found out this is one of the best ways to learn coding and improve your skills: See www.extremeprogramming.org (http://www.extremeprogramming.org/). Warning: You'll most likely get labeled "Nerd", if not already. You've been warned... ;-)
Thanks again Marko! :-)
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Re: Looks like we need more programers?
Yes we do, don't we. :-D
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@ sidwinder,
Nice start, will get the recomended software "Softhut" install all goodies formentioned, & have at it. I hope you don't mind an IP once & a while because I may be sharp, BUT, not always the sharpest tool in the shed. I look forward to a new challenge. Work is, well, work. That means a PC, DOH. I'm about some diff stuff @ home.
Chris
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I'm one of does that wana begin but can't:
I wana learn to program but I wana learn it in steps, starting with a simple langues like amos.
I have all the programs but I miss the books.
At the precent I'm trying to learn about Arexx, atlest I have a book for that.
Anyone have any suggestions where I can get some books for amos?
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Hiya!!
Thanks for the links to louise's site sidewinder, I just wondered if you or anyone else could give me an idiots guide to setting up GCC with WinUAE?? :)
Cheers,
Gazza
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@Sidewinder.
Its starting very well - i'm about halfway through the introduction, and I think I have a good teacher in you :-)
Maybe it can be a new years resolution - to learn to program something other than xHTML & CSS2 (thats hardly programming is it? :-) ). I think PHP would be useful but then C would be too...
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Sidewinder wrote:
Here (http://www.liquido2.com/tutorial) is the first section of my tutorial. I'd appreciate any constructive criticism you can offer.
Nice! :-)
Perhaps you could go deeper into how to set up a working developer envireonment. It seems like many people are having problems with this, and it would be sad if they will stumble and fall before they even are able to compile that first "Hello World!" program. So a detailed, step by step, tutorial of how to do this would be justified before going into that Hello World example. All needed information on one place. It would start from scratch and when the reader has followed all the instructions and recommendations then he/she will have a complete and *working* development envireonment on the HD, as well as a library of downloaded reference documentation. Only then will the user be ready to begin to learn actual programming, IMHO.
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@ Gnarly!!: I was checking out your website and I've also got a mountain biking buddy called Gray who's just finished writing up his PhD thesis on electronic noses!!! small world :-)
@ takemehomegrandma: I'm with you on the setting up the environment, that would be great! I've downloaded the gcc111-files.tgz file from sidewinder's first link and added the directory as a harddrive in winuae, but when I go to compile hello.c it tells me it can't find the command gcc, so it would be great if someone could do a tutorial to set this up!!! I'm really keen to start looking at this!!
Cheers,
Gazza
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@gazza
Have you set the needed assigns ? Is the "bin" directory in your path ?
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@Sidewinder
Very good, and i´m with takemehome... but my gcc and vbcc allways worked, at least to "hello world",
i will put my 1200+Bppc working again just to folow the tutorial :-D .
Question, this will be a free tutorial, or will you try to make a little profit with it ?
;-)
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Kronos wrote:
@gazza
Have you set the needed assigns ? Is the "bin" directory in your path ?
That's what I'm talking about. We need an envireonment that works without problem, out of the box.
On the C64, the Basic interpreter was there on power up. Easy. A lot of todays great programmers started their carrears on the C64 because it was so simple and easy to get started. On the Amiga there was AMOS, which allowed people to start programming just as easily. No hazzle. The Aminet testifies of the AMOS success. But when someone try to compile a simple "Hello World" in C and gets all kinds of cryptic error messages from the compiler regarding missing header files or whatever, they might loose their motivation and just quits trying.
C is a more complex language than Basic, but it should be just as easy to "get going" for a beginner, so he/she can focus wholehartedly on learning the programming instead of trying to get the compiler up and running.
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Perhaps you could go deeper into how to set up a working developer envireonment.
Ok, I will begin a tutorial on development environment setup using GCC and add it in the next couple of days.
Thanks for your input.
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@GPT:
I have an AMOS tutorial here I can send if you'd like, might come in handy.
@Sidewinder:
Excellent job, at least now I have an idea where to start!
Once I've come to grips with the compiler and learnt the basics of C I'll soon get the hang of it.
Many thanks for all your effort!
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Try doing a search on Google for the terms
amiga programming faq
. . .and see what pops up (sorry, couldn't paste
link).
Aniway
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@DDJPPC
These tutorials will be free for anyone interested. Naturally any donations would be considered, but you know... :-D
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WOW, I never dreamed of this kind of response. The input here is great. The only other thing I can think of is a meeting place to swap Q&A's. Have no idea how this will work but it's a start. Info is the KEY.
Chris
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I've been trying to program for the Amiga on and off for a couple of years. The main problem is the transition from ANSI to Amiga stuff. I can understand the ANSI concepts and the examples in beginner books, but the complexity seems to jump several orders when you move up to Amga code.
Magazine articles on the subject in the past have tended to jump from basic "Hello World" programs with a couple of definitions of pointers, headers etc. to full blown GUI-using-every-damn-function-structure-and-library-known-to-man monsters.
I don't know about everyone but I tend to learn best taking an example and playing with it until I either destroy it or have sussed it's inner workings. There seems to be a distinct lack of good examples for AmigaOS, and when they are available they seem to be SAS C specific and won't compile in VBCC, DICE, or StormC which is little use to a beginner.
If both OS 4 and MOS are going over to GCC then at least that will standardie things a bit. An IDE would be nice though :-)
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@uncharted
IDE ? Just get the latest GoldED, and you will have an allmost perfect IDE.
Programming the OS has become much easier with the introducion of Tags.
Just insert:
win=OpenWindowsTags(NULL,TAG_DONE);
Delay(500);
CloseWindow(win);
and you have starting-point.
Now take a deep look at the "Includes&Autodocs" found on the DEV-CD,
and try all the nice tags.