Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: giZmo350 on November 24, 2016, 04:07:18 PM
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Simply amazing - all these choices for NEW hardware! :)
Per Kipper2K (the Man, the Myth, the Legend!) @ EAB......
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=84906
There is a new a500+ motherboard kit being put up for sale on A1K done by Scrat and Matze,
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread.php?t=57552
(http://www.kipper2k.com/a500+red.jpg)
I love my new Matze RTG card (1st RTG for A500!) and no doubt this new A500+ board will work flawlessly!
http://webstore.kryoflux.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=56 Ooo, price drop! Think I'll get another for my A500!
@Rotzloeffel... again, THX so much! http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=810409&postcount=105
Personally can't wait for Jens' A1200 Reloaded - http://wiki.icomp.de/wiki/Amiga_reloaded
Already bought ACA1233N @40MHz accelerator for it.... :)
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=43&products_id=1285
This too, looks awesome and will surely buy one when available!
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=84838
Tiz good times for Miggy lovers!
PS.... Happy T-Day all! :)
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cool but hopefully we can find a german translator here
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Hmmm, looks complicated to register interest....
Translation...........
The Matze and I have made something like this ... This project including the prototype circuit boards was already last year, but was then put back for various reasons and concerns. Among other things, thanks to Gonzo's kick-off with his A2000 board, we have decided (now that we have all the doubts as far as possible) to complete this project
What is "Project Red"?
Project Red is a nearly original replication of the A500 + (Rev 8A) board. The name refers to the selected board color.
The finished prototype board looks like this:
Pedagogical note: I have put away the C = logo in all pictures, since we will be left out in the final version with caution. In the expansion of the memory, we are still not sure whether the dabeibleiben.
Matze has equipped its board (Codename "Red Alert"), the prototype also works:
A few more impressions from the PCB:
Why?
If you ask this question, you are wrong here
What should I do with it?
The board makes itself good as a wall decoration. Or as a replacement board for a battery-eaten original board. Maybe you can exchange it with a pair of socks.
How is it going on?
We will presumably make a second prototype, as we have dealt with some drill holes in the first version (some are too big, others too small). In addition, Matze has changed a few trifles, among other things. The contact strip must be chamfered from the expansion port. In the first prototype we did not make this for cost reasons.
Bulk order?
Yes. We will open a separate thread in due course, but you may already express your interest here. This makes the calculation easier. The collective order is expected to run over the tried and tested platform of halbviervier and only the circuit board, parts you have to take care of itself if necessary.
Update 2016-11-23: Collective order started!
Please register here.
---------------------------- Register Page Translated---------------------------
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showpost.ph...61&postcount=1
The collective order of the year
__________________________
Description:
It is about the project ROT created by Matze and Scrat.
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread.php?t=57552
More specifically ...
Mainboard (red) A500plus Rev.8a
Standard small parts
Watch IC and RAM chips
CPU and Amiga custom chips
2 different video hybrids
If necessary, adapter DIP to PLCC components
Optional 1MB memory card kit
All necessary parts are included for the above-mentioned boards.
All positions in the web form are optional.
Attention: It's kits!
Appropriate soldering skills and rest are required!
Prices:
40,00 Euro 1 x circuit board A500 Rev.8 red (solo)
60,00 Euro 1 x Small and standard parts kit (new / NOS)
2,50 Euro 1 x video hybrid kit standard incl. Circuit board (black)
Or alternatively: 15,00 EUR Video-Hybrid-Kit with FBAS incl. PCB (black)
9,60 Euro 1 x Set of 8x DRAM 256Kx4 (NOS)
4,50 Euro 1 x RTC MSM6242B OKI (NOS)
16,00 Euro 1 x AGNUS 8375, 2MB (NOS)
4,00 Euro 1 x GARY 5719 (NOS)
5,00 Euro 1 x EPROM 27C400 / 27C800 (with 3.1?)
2,90 Euro 1 x DENISE 8362 OCS (B-Ware)
4,00 Euro 1 x PAULA 8364 (B-Ware)
3,50 Euro 1 x CPU MC68000 (B / C-Ware)
7,00 Euro 2 x CIA8520 (C / D-Ware) of the A500 + needs 2 pieces
13,00 Euro optional 1MB memory extension kit incl. Board (red)
7,00 post-dispatch and packaging basic price
Order :
Orders in self-government via the special web interface
Or even web form. I think this is self-explanatory.
.
-> Web form PCB A500-R8 RED with components
.
After entering the address and number, of course still with one
Review page, will automatically email you with the necessary
Payment Information Shipped.
(If that does not come, the email address was wrong)
So easy ? So easy !
Then please ... do not forget the transfer
At '' difficult '' constellations and / or extensions still
Wait my email.
Further sequence:
We first look at how many sentences are needed
Deadline: 02.12.2016!
Then we order the parts rounded
These are distributed among the diligent helpers
Which in turn create the bags and boxes
These sets are collected centrally and packaged according to your order
Shipped as an assured DHL parcel shipment via ARabbit
Receiving and crafting and looking forward
Finally,
Due to various laws, the following must be stated in advance:
Even if it makes a professional impression. But, here is about one
Private collective order for private projects. Even though we were with best
Knowledge and conscience, with the greatest possible care, the things
Have selected and put together, we can not guarantee
Functionality and scope. Also, we can not accept liability for
Commissioning and consequential damage.
Portal for Collective Orders Translated...........
https://translate.google.com/transla...apr&edit-text=
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Holy Carp, now I just have to translate the different available options :)
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cool but hopefully we can find a german translator here
Or just use Chrome.
BTW - I don't get this.
I really like the video card, but why a 500+ motherboard?
Its not like they are a rare commodity.
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@Iggy
Right question : "Why not ?"
I'm not sure if I'll order, but I will order the A2000 replacement board also in planning.
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A4000D would be nice to see.
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@Iggy
I will order the A2000 replacement board also in planning.
Me too! My A2K MoBo is on it's last leg from battery damage TWICE! LOL... don't ask... :lol: It no longer boots without the Blizz due to damage around the CPU socket. A component populated board without the custom chips and video should do it for me. :)
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BTW - I don't get this.
I really like the video card, but why a 500+ motherboard?
Its not like they are a rare commodity.
Um, actually they are a pretty rare commodity. ;)
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I really like those red boards!
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I have two of these kits on the way to build and plan to document the entire process of the build. Im pretty excited about it.
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I have two of these kits on the way to build and plan to document the entire process of the build. Im pretty excited about it.
This isn't definite. My German isn't the greatest since I haven't spoken it in 20 years, but, the sentiment there is that only a1k.org users will be allowed to purchase them, as of this evening. I have had an account there for a few months now, but, I'm not thinking I will qualify.
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only a1k.org users will be allowed to purchase them
Whether or not I would consider purchasing one, this kind of attitude makes me really, really angry. :madashell: :madashell: :madashell:
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I have two of these kits on the way to build and plan to document the entire process of the build. Im pretty excited about it.
Acill's Batman!
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Me too! My A2K MoBo is on it's last leg from battery damage TWICE! LOL... don't ask... :lol:
Oh come on, I fancy a laugh.
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Whether or not I would consider purchasing one, this kind of attitude makes me really, really angry. :madashell: :madashell: :madashell:
I am neutral in the matter. Some of them were not too happy with EAB users complaining in their companion thread to this one that "they had to register and become a member on a1k in order to view the pictures and thread." If that's their rules, one must abide. Heck, back in the day, you couldn't view a BBS without registering and being validated. I don't see this as much different. It is aprivate enterprise, after all.
Others on a1k, especially the developers, were amazed and seemed pleased by the amount of interest that international users had in the project and the demand for orders. Personally, I am thrilled by that.
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So become an a1k member. Ive done it a long time ago. Heck Ive learned a lot of german alone from the site, lol
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Whether or not I would consider purchasing one, this kind of attitude makes me really, really angry. :madashell: :madashell: :madashell:
so ... aha ... mmhh ...
But I must read and write in english her, isn't ?!
I have to registered her to write this words.
So ... some registrations have a sence.
However
Some people do some things and do it on his own way and rules
and not yours and so on.
Many things in this world are that I don't like, such as banker
or postagefees or political unfairness ....
And when the way to look or to order or to pay is defined from
whom ever. We and you and all must accept this.
I hope this is not to heavy to understand.
Thanks for reading.
.
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@Iggy
Right question : "Why not ?"
I'm not sure if I'll order, but I will order the A2000 replacement board also in planning.
OK, now I get it, because I'd order an A2000 board myself, and they aren't a rare commodity either.
But instead of an A2000, what would be cool is trying to improve on that board.
A2000 with PCI slots instead of ISA slots (and active, instead of passive)?
Whether or not I would consider purchasing one, this kind of attitude makes me really, really angry. :madashell: :madashell: :madashell:
Yes, that IS stupid.
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It's not stupid at all.
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It's not stupid at all.
"You came here for an argument".
OK, Mr. Cleese.
But forcing me to register with a website I'm unlikely to continue to visit in order to obtain/support a piece of hardware is just plain dumb, whether you think so or not. :p:p:p
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But forcing me to register with a website I'm unlikely to continue to visit in order to obtain/support a piece of hardware is just plain dumb, whether you think so or not. :p:p:p
You just described why it is not dumb. It is not just "a piece of hardware", it is a community effort, and you just stated quite clearly that you have no intentions of being part of that community.
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I don't even speak German other than fumbling through a few words and I registered years ago. Its a great site, and a lot of the members will speak English if you ask for help.
This is by far a community project and that's why it requires you to register. All the a1k.org projects have been this way.
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You just described why it is not dumb. It is not just "a piece of hardware", it is a community effort, and you just stated quite clearly that you have no intentions of being part of that community.
You don't make it sound like a community, you make it sound like a cult.
I belong to a Yahoo group that works on a Color Computer 3 fpga core, but that is fairly original.
And we're creating functionality that wasn't there before (new graphic modes, better A to D conversion, etc).
Recreating an A500+ plus board isn't terribly original. Regardless of previously stated opinions, there's a fair number of those boards left.
So yeah, the attitude is freakin' dumb, AND you've just helped make up my mind, I don't want one.
I have a perfectly functional A2000.
Which is a better platform than the 500 (or 500+) anyway.
I'll spend my money on a Vampire2 or a V2000 video card.
Hope they enjoy their little "kid's clubhouse" mentality.
If I add another legacy system, it will probably be an AGA based one.
You've really put me off.
Brilliant marketing, the Stanley brothers would have loved it.
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This is by far a community project and that's why it requires you to register. All the a1k.org projects have been this way.
Okay, when you put it like this it makes sense. I just don't understand the "closed nature" of so much modern Amiga development. It would be so much easier if I could just, say, ring up Amigakit and order one. As opposed to jumping through hoops that only serve to limit the market and exposure to the board.
Another example which comes to mind is that recent game, Tanks Furry. I really wanted to support the development of it but their website was not in English, and barely functional on any of the browsers I tried it on. Money for me is not in short supply, but time is. After a couple attempts I gave up. Am sure they would have had at least one more sale if they had a North American distributor. Their choice not to, and I can respect that, it's just another example of intentionally shooting one's self in the foot by limiting their market.
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This is forbidden by law.... all parts and the system itself is not CE or ROHS certified, which is nessesery in europe.... so only that way is possible... a private, selfmade community project.....
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This is forbidden by law.... all parts and the system itself is not CE or ROHS certified, which is nessesery in europe.... so only that way is possible... a private, selfmade community project.....
Your point? ROHS is pretty much required everywhere in commercial products, but as you've pointed out, this isn't a commercial product.
And a personal or community driven project doesn't preclude open distribution.
I have boards I send out all the time (including a V9958 based 80 column card) to anyone that is interested that is willing to reimburse me for my expense.
RetroBrew computing (the successor to N8VEM) members send out a variety of boards to anyone that asks for one.
This whole "only for our members" nonsense is childish.
"This is forbidden by law..."
Obfuscation, plain and simple.
Go back to your tree fort.
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This is forbidden by law.... all parts and the system itself is not CE or ROHS certified, which is nessesery in europe.... so only that way is possible... a private, selfmade community project.....
IMO it's a spare part for repairing a computer produced before 2006, which are exempt from ROHS.
I haven't found anything that says ROHS certification isn't required if you restrict access to the product to users of a specific web site. They don't even let you side step it by giving away the product for free.
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I really dont understand the anger about all this. I have nothing to do with the project at all. I just thought I would chime in that I will be receiving a pair to assemble.
Any site I have ever bought anything on requires registration of some kind to place an order. This is no different. You can literally register, go place the order, get the paypal payment link and be done. Its that simple.
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I really dont understand the anger about all this. I have nothing to do with the project at all. I just thought I would chime in that I will be receiving a pair to assemble.
Any site I have ever bought anything on requires registration of some kind to place an order. This is no different. You can literally register, go place the order, get the paypal payment link and be done. Its that simple.
Yeah, I guess my objections are overblown.
After all, we register users in our yahoo group for the Coco3 FPGA project, BUT we do distribute our code freely AND I don't understand the linkage between registration and board distribution unless they are planning to offer support.
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Your point? ROHS is pretty much required everywhere in commercial products, but as you've pointed out, this isn't a commercial product.
I personally think ROHS would disagree as you are giving them money. Although ROHS also covers equipment given away for free, you only have to make the equipment available (which they are).
However ROHS doesn't cover re-using equipment sold before 2006. MOS/CSG chips made today on the same process would fail ROHS, but the ones manufactured in the 80's and 90's are fine. I expect the PCB would be fine, or the PCB house would be out of business by now.
So I don't know what the fuss over ROHS is. They certainly haven't found a loop hole by only selling it on a1k.org.
As a spare part for an old computer, I don't think CE testing would be required either.
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They offer support to each other on the forum, it's kinda implicit. A500+ schematics are not exactly rocket science, to make a replica of the board is not so hard, so why not do it yourself if you really want one?
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I personally think ROHS would disagree as you are giving them money. Although ROHS also covers equipment given away for free, you only have to make the equipment available (which they are).
However ROHS doesn't cover re-using equipment sold before 2006. MOS/CSG chips made today on the same process would fail ROHS, but the ones manufactured in the 80's and 90's are fine. I expect the PCB would be fine, or the PCB house would be out of business by now.
So I don't know what the fuss over ROHS is. They certainly haven't found a loop hole by only selling it on a1k.org.
As a spare part for an old computer, I don't think CE testing would be required either.
You really are overthinking this.
Reimbursement for personal expenses that not incurred by a business activity are hardly the purview of a regulatory agency.
And this is not a business.
As far as a1K.org, I couldn't care less what their position is.
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Your point? ROHS is pretty much required everywhere in commercial products, but as you've pointed out, this isn't a commercial product.
And a personal or community driven project doesn't preclude open distribution.
This is not the US here, where you could sell a product "as is", i.e. without offering a warranty, or any service around it. We are here in Germany, and special precautions must be taken if you bring (from within Germany) a product into the market. "Consumer protection" has a much higher value here than in the US.
In particular, there is also a law against "unfair competition" which brings you into the danger when sellling any goods that do not conform to regulations for whatever reason. Any potential competitor could sue you for such an attempt, which may become very costly. A "call to order" is a well-known instrument of lawers here in Germany to "earn" some additional money, even more so as even the first "call to order" is not *for free*. IOWs, if some greedy lawyer finds a page where a product is sold without all necessary regulations in place, this may become an expensive experience for you.
The simplest you can do is not to sell it as a product, but a small private series, as a hobby. As soon as you announce it on a web-page and make it accessible for everyone, you are entering a rather delicate terrain, so it's not done.
I'm not talking for anyone of a1k here, this is just my private statement, and I'm not a lawyer either, this is just my "common knowledge" and experience of what happens over here. I understand very well that such precautions are necessary, and I believe they are very much due to legal reasons rather than to stop anyone from buying the board (not to call it a "product" because that is something it cannot be).
This whole "only for our members" nonsense is childish.
"This is forbidden by law..."
Obfuscation, plain and simple.
No, you do not know German law, and German lawers in particular. Please understand. It's not the US system here. Registering on a1k costs you nothing.
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They offer support to each other on the forum, it's kinda implicit. A500+ schematics are not exactly rocket science, to make a replica of the board is not so hard, so why not do it yourself if you really want one?
That is a common perception, but the creation of board layouts from schematics is far from easy.
And it would hardly be necessary, as I've stated before, while bare boards would not be available, populated legacy boards are still possible to find.
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Iggy, its not about getting a populated board. Its about the fun and challenge of building your own board and populating it yourself. I did an A1000 for someone awhile back this way which was also an a1k project. I was also going to do an A4000T they offered but ran into problems and sold most of the board and parts. Its all about the fun of it.
If you want an A500+ you can easily get one sure, but can you say you built it yourself and be proud of it? I love my 4000T now more than ever because of all the upgrades and enhancements to the board I have done myself. Its a skill I have worked a long time and very hard to build up and maintain. Doing something like this is just an awesome bonus of having that skill that I can do for someone else.
Heck I have an A500 now and don't need one, but I don't have an A500 I assembled from scratch! This one will go in a box frame and be mounted in my office when I complete it so I can show it off.
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The simplest you can do is not to sell it as a product, but a small private series, as a hobby...
But that IS what they are doing in this case Thomas.
So all the concern over ROHS is really undue.
And please don't appeal to me with the "we have superior regulations" crap.
Excessive regulatory BS like your "unfair competition" regulations are ludicrous.
And your so called superior consumer protection didn't stop Volkswagen from trying to cheat on the emissions controls of the cars you have been shipping us...which we caught.
Iggy, its not about getting a populated board. Its about the fun and challenge of building your own board and populating it yourself. I did an A1000 for someone awhile back this way which was also an a1k project. I was also going to do an A4000T they offered but ran into problems and sold most of the board and parts. Its all about the fun of it.
If you want an A500+ you can easily get one sure, but can you say you built it yourself and be proud of it? I love my 4000T now more than ever because of all the upgrades and enhancements to the board I have done myself. Its a skill I have worked a long time and very hard to build up and maintain. Doing something like this is just an awesome bonus of having that skill that I can do for someone else.
Heck I have an A500 now and don't need one, but I don't have an A500 I assembled from scratch! This one will go in a box frame and be mounted in my office when I complete it so I can show it off.
I get that.
I've been thinking about approaching the Apollo team on a project I and a few friends are building because our board has no video output.
And this 500+ board is something that could be soldered by the average individual.
The 500 and 2000 don't rely on a lot of surface mount crap (mostly through hole components).
In a way its a lot like a hobbyist board.
I do wonder why we aren't switching to 68HC000s for things like this though.
They are available at up to 20 MHz and 50% or higher overclocks are not uncommon.
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I do wonder why we aren't switching to 68HC000s for things like this though.
They are available at up to 20 MHz and 50% or higher overclocks are not uncommon.
Compatibility is my guess, but it has been done. Take a loot at this thread.
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=70936
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Is it not possible to replace the DIP 68000 with an adapter consisting of a surface-mount 68HC000 and timing circuit, maybe even cache, something like the AdSpeed?
EDIT: hehehe Acill answered me before I got my post in. I need to stop opening tabs and reading them later.
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But that IS what they are doing in this case Thomas.
So all the concern over ROHS is really undue.
And please don't appeal to me with the "we have superior regulations" crap.
Excessive regulatory BS like your "unfair competition" regulations are ludicrous.
And your so called superior consumer protection didn't stop Volkswagen from trying to cheat on the emissions controls of the cars you have been shipping us...which we caught.
I don't care what you think about German laws. It's another discussion. No matter what you think: In Germany, German laws apply. And no matter whether you like them or not: You have to be super-careful here if you are selling products. You have to provide services to the customer, and you have to be in fair competition and must follow certain regulations.
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But that IS what they are doing in this case Thomas.
So all the concern over ROHS is really undue.
They sell a naked Board...... nothing else..... you also can buy some old spareparts to build it.
And please don't appeal to me with the "we have superior regulations" crap.
That bull%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!...sorry
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..
What should I do with it?
The board makes itself good as a wall decoration. Or as a replacement board for a battery-eaten original board. Maybe you can exchange it with a pair of socks.
..
a-ha, its true, Germans are 'The least funny people in the world' !
:)
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Well, the US will find out how funny the Germans can be with their president Drumpf in January :)
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Well, the US will find out how funny the Germans can be with their president Drumpf in January :)
How so?
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Well, the US will find out how funny the Germans can be with their president Drumpf in January :)
I fully agree, he's been good for nothing except comedy so far.
Although once in office we might get some horror with our comedy. :hammer:
They sell a naked Board...... nothing else..... you also can buy some old spareparts to build it....
Ah, so as a bare board, ROHS is pretty much irrelevant.
Although I have to wonder how the makers of the mostly finished Kiwi 68008 board get around the ROHS regulations (they use old components like V9990 video display processors).
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(https://i.imgur.com/a0xJKJR.png)
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@ Mike
Its not that bad, at least we are talking about the board still.
By now this should have degenerated into an argument about the merits of legacy vs various NG applications. ;-)
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I'm still waiting for Drumpf's opinions on the merits of legacy vs various NG applications. Next will come a comparison to Hitler, and a wistful comment about how much better amiga.org was when we had Franko and Doommaster.
Make Amiga.org Great Again! :laughing:
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I'm still waiting for Drumpf's opinions on the merits of legacy vs various NG applications. Next will come a comparison to Hitler, and a wistful comment about how much better amiga.org was when we had Franko and Doommaster.
Make Amiga.org Great Again! :laughing:
OH, I wish I'd thought to thrown in the Hitler comparison thing, that IS good.
At least we are still on schedule and rocking!
BTW - Humor is the only thing that's going to get me through the next four years.
Oh, and Frank's still counting squirrels (I actually DO miss him, but I miss Cammy more - good friends both).
Thanks.
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You got that right on the humor bit. "On schedule and rocking!" :roflmao:
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OH, I wish I'd thought to thrown in the Hitler comparison thing, that IS good.
At least we are still on schedule and rocking!
BTW - Humor is the only thing that's going to get me through the next four years.
Oh, and Frank's still counting squirrels (I actually DO miss him, but I miss Cammy more - good friends both).
Thanks.
Maybe I can help with what got me through the last eight.
One is, don't bring politics to a non political forum. This is a nice escape for. A few of us.
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One is, don't bring politics to a non political forum. This is a nice escape for. A few of us.
Second.
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Second.
Sorry guys, I'm not sure I can limit my thoughts about Trump to the arena of politics.
I'm a registered Republican (but vote how I see fit) and my sister is much more conservative than me, but she has revealed to me that ever since Trump entered this race she hasn't needed laxatives, all she needs to do is see his face and she's good to go.
So Mike's nickname seem apt.
But hey, how about the idea of recreating Amiga motherboards, eh?
How about altering or adding to the designs?
Can't wait to see what an A2000 can bring to the table.
There are still plenty of ICs for those.
Something like an A4000 would be much harder with the scarcity of Buster11s.
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Actually that was his family name. ;)
http://www.snopes.com/donald-drumpf/
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/Y2nbrJyAR6RiM/200_s.gif)
AmigaKit still sells Buster 11's so they can't be that rare... which is more than I can say for all the folks saying they're tripping over piles of A500+ motherboards, LOL. ;)
Edit - strike that last, it now says "Stock T.B.A." for them. :(
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Actually that was his family name. ;)
http://www.snopes.com/donald-drumpf/
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/Y2nbrJyAR6RiM/200_s.gif)
AmigaKit still sells Buster 11's so they can't be that rare... which is more than I can say for all the folks saying they're tripping over piles of A500+ motherboards, LOL. ;)
Edit - strike that last, it now says "Stock T.B.A." for them. :(
Fascinating, but weird!
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Although I have to wonder how the makers of the mostly finished Kiwi 68008 board get around the ROHS regulations (they use old components like V9990 video display processors).
I don't know if a V9990 contains hazardous substances, if it does and they sell it as a complete system then they may face problems (if they are caught)
"It is permissible to place on the market spare parts - containing the hazardous substances - for the repair of old equipment (if the latter was put on the market before 1st July 2006). But it is not permissible to repair new equipment (put on the market after 1st July 2006) with spare parts containing hazardous substances."
The more interesting example is the amiga reloaded. Arguing that is a spare part for repairing an old amiga would be a stretch and it's all surface mounted so can't realistically be sold as a kit.
Fortunately the two new C64 reloaded (if they ever arrive) should be fine.
Reimbursement for personal expenses that not incurred by a business activity are hardly the purview of a regulatory agency.
And this is not a business.
They provide a product for a fee, how is that not a business? It may not be a profitable business, but if ROHS cared about that then every single manufacturer would figure out how to not be profitable. "I poisoned 20 million people today, but I shouldn't be held responsible because I was only reimbursed for my personal expenses".
The board doesn't have a ROHS problem anyway.
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Actually that was his family name. ;)
http://www.snopes.com/donald-drumpf/
Yeah, I think John Oliver was wrong there... Trump would be Trumpf in German... so, pronounciation would be sonewhat simmilar...
I suppose the Drumpf changed to Trump because it sounds simmilar... but Drumpf does not have any meaning in German as far as I know
ALSO on a more positive and AMIGA related note:
Here is the PCB Thread for the Amiga 2000...
http://www.a1k.org/forum/showthread.php?t=56039
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I don't care what you think about German laws. It's another discussion. No matter what you think: In Germany, German laws apply. And no matter whether you like them or not: You have to be super-careful here if you are selling products. You have to provide services to the customer, and you have to be in fair competition and must follow certain regulations.
BTW - Can you define "fair" competition? Our legal system doesn't cater to vague ideas that can be twisted by legal interpretations. What you think of as unfair may be what another thinks of as a competitive advantage.
There is legal and there is illegal. Fair is a moral concept, not a legal one.
And while I won't stoop to attacking a German's sense of superiority (moral or otherwise), legislating morality doesn't work.
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There is legal and there is illegal. Fair is a moral concept, not a legal one.
And while I won't stoop to attacking a German's sense of superiority (moral or otherwise), legislating morality doesn't work.
A lot of laws, including US/UK/EU, make it unlawful to be unfair in certain circumstances.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_competition
I think you misunderstood his point.
Making ROHS optional for businesses that aren't real businesses (honest) would mean that every single manufacturer would do whatever it took to become a not real business. It's plain to see what companies like Apple/Starbucks/etc did to make it look like they didn't make a profit in certain countries, so they could avoid paying taxes.
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A lot of laws, including US/UK/EU, make it unlawful to be unfair in certain circumstances.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_competition
I think you misunderstood his point.
Making ROHS optional for businesses that aren't real businesses (honest) would mean that every single manufacturer would do whatever it took to become a not real business. It's plain to see what companies like Apple/Starbucks/etc did to make it look like they didn't make a profit in certain countries, so they could avoid paying taxes.
Wikis, got love 'em, they are always so fact based. :laugh1:
"This article needs additional citations for verification (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Verifiability)."
Yeah, it attempts to brand real criminal activities are merely "unfair competition", so its full of a great generalizations, but not terribly accurate.
And so far, we've ascertained that the bare board doesn't violate ROHS rules, so why continue to push this issue?
Also, say you give me money when I go out to buy a cup of coffee, so that I might get you one.
Does this put me in business as a supplier of coffee?
No guys, businesses are licensed entities.
Asking for compensation for your expenses in a group hobbyist venture is NOT a business activity.
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And so far, we've ascertained that the bare board doesn't violate ROHS rules, so why continue to push this issue?
Also, say you give me money when I go out to buy a cup of coffee, so that I might get you one.
Does this put me in business as a supplier of coffee?
If you just trade with me by pure chance, then likely no. If you offer a coffee service on the internet, then likely yes. There is no "clear cut" decision of whether you offer something "as a hobby" or "for a business", as almost always in legal issues.
ROHS is just one out of many aspects of the problem. Warranty is another. It's something *you have* to comply to if you run a business.
Look, apparently, you do not want to understand what you do not know. No worries. Those that want to make the board available apparently do. So respect their decision. Get it, or leave it, but do not critize something you do not (want to) know the backgrounds of.
No guys, businesses are licensed entities.
So now, what happens if you sell "sufficient quantities" without offering the services a business needs to provide?
If it would be so simple, then there would be an easy way around all the "anoying" parts of business, such as warranty or compliance to environmental regulations: "Do not register you business".
As you see, this is probably *not* a good idea.
Asking for compensation for your expenses in a group hobbyist venture is NOT a business activity.
And *who* decides this? The owner of the business, sorry, hobby? Probably not.
In reality, your competitor will send you a "call to order" through a lawyer, and yes, here in Germany, you - getting the order - have then to pay. No matter whether this is the first time you get such a "call to order" or not.
This has unfortunately become a "business model" for some lawyers, sending such calls in massive quantities to people for various reasons.
All of this can be prevented with a bit of precaution, and this precaution has been taken here. So, either register at a1k, or leave it.
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All these comments about German business laws are making my head hurt. They should just come over here and set up shop in the US! :banana: :banana:
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Surely these old chips cause less harm to the earth if they are used as opposed to entering landfill?
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And so far, we've ascertained that the bare board doesn't violate ROHS rules, so why continue to push this issue?
They are two completely separate points.
We're doing A only because of B.
You don't need to do A because B doesn't apply.
Yes, we're doing A only because of B.
You don't need to do A because B doesn't apply.
Yes....
So this intrigues me as to the real motive/whether they are arguing disingenuously.
Also, say you give me money when I go out to buy a cup of coffee, so that I might get you one.
Does this put me in business as a supplier of coffee?
I don't know the people on a1k.org and they are controlling who can buy the board. So it's not a good analogy.
If you pursuaded starbucks to stock your own special blend of coffee which they would only supply to customers that you authorised and I gave you money and you told them to produce a cup of your special blend of coffee for me, then yes you are in business as a supplier of coffee.
No guys, businesses are licensed entities.
Licensed for what and by whom?
I can get up tomorrow and find someone who is willing to pay me to work tomorrow. That would be my business and I don't need a license. As a self employed person I may be required to fill in a tax return, but if I don't then that doesn't stop me from being a business.
Surely these old chips cause less harm to the earth if they are used as opposed to entering landfill?
I believe ROHS allows for the re-use of old chips for repairing equipment made before 2006. Of course https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus becomes relevant here. I certainly should be allowed to buy NOS chips to repair an a500+ and I should also be allowed to buy a brand new pcb. But getting cases, keyboards and pcbs manufactured and fitting them with NOS chips maybe not.
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All these comments about German business laws are making my head hurt. They should just come over here and set up shop in the US! :banana: :banana:
Honestly, I thought our lawyers were the biggest vermin on the planet until I heard of this "call to order" issue.
And as to not understanding manufacturing, I'll freely admit I don't understand the German restrictions on it.
But it seems obvious that those same restrictions could be a driving force influencing multi-nationals to not consider Gemany as a location for manufacturing.
I thought we had intense environmental regulation over here.
But I'd have no problem coping with US regulations covering this endeavor.
And come to think of it, since I have been using Chinese fabricators for the last several years, it really hasn't been an issue.
And yes, lead in landfills (my country's primary way of disposing of waste) could lead to long term problems.
Finally, throughout this thread we keep hearing how German regulations protect the consumer, but it seems like the costs of this protection AND the opportunistic activities of German lawyers are fairly injurious themselves.
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Honestly, I thought our lawyers were the biggest vermin on the planet until I heard of this "call to order" issue.
Similar instruments exist in the US in the form of "Cease and Desist" letters.
It is not exactly the same as the German instrument, and I cannot answer you whether the first letter is "for free" in the US, i.e. you just receive the letter and must then stop the activity under question "or else". In Germany, and this is really a problematic issue, the first such letter is *not* fo free. You - receiving such a letter - must pay the lawyer sending this letter, no matter whether you stop or do not stop your activity.
I personally consider this a very questionable instrument as it requires the receiver of such a letter to take a legal action against another lawyer, which again might (or will) cost money. Unless in some obvious cases...
So yes, better be safe than sorry.
And as to not understanding manufacturing, I'll freely admit I don't understand the German restrictions on it.
It is not a question of "manufacturing" primarely, though this also plays into the problem. It is a question of competition regulations. That alone is not solely a German problem either. The "Call to order" regulation is one.
But it seems obvious that those same restrictions could be a driving force influencing multi-nationals to not consider Gemany as a location for manufacturing.
Not exactly the same, but similar laws exist in other countries, one way or another, so that is not exactly a German-only problem with manufacturing.
We cannot be that unsuccessful, though. Our export surplus is larger than that of China (i.e. exports in relation to imports) in 2016 - actually, it is the largest in the world. No, I'm not making this up. In 2015, we were "only" at position 2 behind China:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_current_account_balance
(Probably to the surprise of many.)
Changed in 2016 (i.e. China behind Germany), but wikipedia does not yet list it.
The problem is that workforce is quite expensive over here (unlike China, but getting better? worse? there, too.). Not really the regulations. Every country has some. Countries that have less have other problems. I've been in China in October (Chengdu, a "small" town in the chinese province of ~14 million people) and haven't seen the sun for ten days due to smog.
No, I don't want that.
I thought we had intense environmental regulation over here.
But I'd have no problem coping with US regulations covering this endeavor.
I do not know whether you had been in contact with such regulations? I'm not an expert either, but there are a couple of other certificates you need (for Germany, or for the European Union, the CE certificate comes to my mind).
Finally, throughout this thread we keep hearing how German regulations protect the consumer, but it seems like the costs of this protection AND the opportunistic activities of German lawyers are fairly injurious themselves.
German lawyers are a class of themselves. Problem is probably similar to the US: If you look at the profession of politicians, then you find lawyers at position 1. So, why would they make laws that work against their profession? (Probably not so different in the US).
Second problem: More or less by definition, a lawyer is a man whose oppinion can be bought by money. (After all, you need one to defend your position in court). Now, which story does this actually tell about politics?
So yes, democracy is probably the worst political system, except all other possible political systems I can think of. (-:
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In the quantities this sort of thing will be sold in, I seriously doubt anyone is going to be hassled by the ROHS police. This is a niche hobbyist product, I would be shocked if more than 100 are produced, not a mass produced consumer item where they are rolling off the assembly line by the hundreds of thousands.
I can only wonder where all these NOS chips are coming from though, did Commodore have a massive stock of them that was liquidated? They went under more than 20 years ago.
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And yes, lead in landfills (my country's primary way of disposing of waste) could lead to long term problems.
It's not just lead and the US has a history of poisoning it's population if it meant saving money. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_groundwater_contamination
I'm glad that regulations like ROHS exist.
I can only wonder where all these NOS chips are coming from though, did Commodore have a massive stock of them that was liquidated? They went under more than 20 years ago.
You'd be surprised what turns up in warehouses. The NOS A1200's that turned up a couple of years ago had been sitting in a warehouse for over a decade.
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It's not just lead and the US has a history of poisoning it's population if it meant saving money. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinkley_groundwater_contamination
I'm glad that regulations like ROHS exist.
Since I live fairly close to one of the Dupont plants that developed tetra ethyl lead, I am fully aware that we have a history of promoting dangerous materials.
But ROHS restricions are really not a significant part of the solution to this.
And many substances beyond lead are problematic.
At least we have stepped away from the long chain chlorine related chemistry that was popular in my youth.
And significant strides have been made in improving water and air quality.
As a childhood asthmatic living near an oil refinery, I can testify to the fact that the environment in the area I grew up in is much healthier.
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The issue I have with ROHS is that it's too draconian. It's one thing to reduce the amount of lead and other toxic substances used in products but banning substances outright tends to create unintended consequences, particularly when done so by politicians that lack a real understanding of the issue they are legislating. I'm far more concerned by the disposable trend that has become so prevalent, whenever anything has a minor problem people just throw it away and buy a new one. I have a 2 year old 60" LCD TV that I rescued from a dumpster, it only needed a new LED strip in the backlight and someone simply discarded the whole thing and bought a new one. There would be a FAR greater environmental benefit by building stuff for a longer life cycle and building it to be serviceable rather than simply thrown away, and then ensuring that all this stuff is properly recycled when it is disposed of.
On the topic of recycling E-waste, I would really like to see a re-use program where items dropped off for recycling are sent to a staging area where they can be grabbed by those who are able to repair or reuse rather than automatically dumping everything into containers for processing as is normally done now. By far the most efficient form of recycling is reuse, either of the entire item or salvageable components.
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@James1095 - boy have you got that right! I hate to see perfectly good stuff get thrown away. You might enjoy this video, it's been making the rounds on Facebook lately (41 million views):
https://www.facebook.com/ATTNVideo/videos/1626807070957581/?pnref=story
Sure would love to have a "Repair Cafe" near me!
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ROHS:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restriction_of_Hazardous_Substances_Directive
CE:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking
WEEE:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waste_Electrical_and_Electronic_Equipment_Directive
...and there are more you have to take care.
You are always speaking about Germany, but Germany is part of the European Union
and all countries there have to apply the same EU laws. We take care for our enviroment.
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Trump would be Trumpf in German...
Well, what is the traditional German name of Trondheim, the city I live in?
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Led poisoning is a serious issue since it leads to mental disorders en mass. As demonstrated during this last election.
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Led poisoning is a serious issue since it leads to mental disorders en mass. As demonstrated during this last election.
Why, who did you people vote for?
Lead not Led unless you are talking about the other metal that is "Heavy"
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Why, who did you people vote for?
Lead not Led unless you are talking about the other metal that is "Heavy"
I would have voted for Trump if i was American. I voted to leave the E.U. too. Not that I expect anything to actually change.