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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: arongooch on November 22, 2016, 11:02:43 AM
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Hi, I recently acquired a nice Amiga 2000 with a GVP G-Force 030 Combo "Entry Level" card installed and SCSI HDD connected. I have noticed quite a few issues trying to get this card to operate but will start off with the basics of my main problem.
The machine fires up no problems and boots into WB3.1 no problems. First issue I noticed is the speed of the system seems similar speed to a stock A500 at 7MHz and definitely not similar or faster than my A600 with ACA620 onboard. I have installed the correct software for the card and the FPU test comes back as passed.
Running SysInfo by Nic Wilson shows the card installed. It shows a CPU frequency of 24.9MHz but when I run the "speed" option the results show the "speed comparisons" pretty much at A500 speeds around 7MHz.
I have so many questions to ask but will keep this intro to all the issues short for now. Taking the card out I have noticed a XC68030RC25A ceramic chip installed and not a 68EC030 as should be specified for the 25MHz "entry level" card. Im assuming this will cause the card not to work correctly because the 68030 installed has the MMU and this particular card does not require this?
I have more issues with this card with RAM but will start with the CPU issue first.
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Running SysInfo by Nic Wilson shows the card installed. It shows a CPU frequency of 24.9MHz but when I run the "speed" option the results show the "speed comparisons" pretty much at A500 speeds around 7MHz.
Is any memory installed on the board? If not, then the GVP will of course run only from the regular (slow) memory on the Amiga, and its tiny cache, and hence will be dog-slow.
I have so many questions to ask but will keep this intro to all the issues short for now. Taking the card out I have noticed a XC68030RC25A ceramic chip installed and not a 68EC030 as should be specified for the 25MHz "entry level" card. Im assuming this will cause the card not to work correctly because the 68030 installed has the MMU and this particular card does not require this?
No, this will be fine. The 68030 is compatible to the 68EC030 in every way, except that it *also* has a MMU on board. For the 68030, it is *typically* not required (except to work around a 030 bug which typically shows up only for bridgeboard users), but for now, be confirmed that this is not the source of your problem.
I have more issues with this card with RAM but will start with the CPU issue first.
This might just be the very same problem. No working RAM on the board, no speed.
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Thanks for the super quick reply Thomas :)
That's a relief to know about the 68030 working for the entry level card. I had already got my oscilloscope out and confirmed the 25MHz is reaching the CPU and FPU too.
The card has no SIMM memory installed at all, unfortunately didn't come with any and seems almost impossible to find these days, some sort of rare 64pin GVP special SIMM memory I believe.
I was under the assumption the card would work with the 1MB 32bit RAM hard-installed RAM on the card? In other words without any populated SIMMS.
I have noticed when I close/short J12 I get a red "Expansion Board Diagnostic" error screen on start up. This says "Board 1, manufacturer 2017, Product 9 is Defective". Without J12 the system boots without this error. Even with this error though, if I click the "continue" button the system boots and behaves exactly the same.
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The GVP 030 Combo has 1MB or 4MB RAM installed on board, so it's not a RAM issue.
It's most likely that one or more jumpers are not correctly seated. See for jumper settings:
http://www.bigbookofamigahardware.com/bboah/product.aspx?id=178
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Cheers AmiDude, I've seen that link and have the original book for the card too. I've spent considerable time going over the jumpers and double checking them and their continuity with my multimeter. My card is only supposed to have the 1MB board-installed RAM.
Im starting to wonder if a memory chip could have failed? They are all slightly warm to the touch but evenly warm across them all. The memory checker program supplied on the drivers disk checks out ok though.
Probing around the 68030 there is plenty of activity on my oscilloscope. No doubt the CPU is in use, that and it gets warm during operation. The 25MHz clock signal is present on the CPU but the system is definitely not running any faster than a stock 7MHz A2000 or A500.
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Cheers AmiDude, I've seen that link and have the original book for the card too. I've spent considerable time going over the jumpers and double checking them and their continuity with my multimeter. My card is only supposed to have the 1MB board-installed RAM.
Does this additional 1MB show up in the workbench? And even if so, how much of the 1MB is occupied? It could just be that the 1MB is used up already by the workbench, and the benchmark programs are left with the slow motherboard RAM.
Im starting to wonder if a memory chip could have failed? They are all slightly warm to the touch but evenly warm across them all. The memory checker program supplied on the drivers disk checks out ok though.
If the memory is failing, then the system would typically crash randomly.
"Showconfig" (on the workbench) can test for you which memory is in the system.
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If the memory on the board is filled up during the boot process the benchmark program will run in slower 16-bit ram. I had an identical "non issue" when I had a system with only 2MB of 32-bit ram and 8MB of 16-bit ram. Confirm that the memory is getting detected in the first place (tons of ways to do this, SysInfo, etc.) and add more. (check Amibay)
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Just to clear up my machines resources. I have an "8 UP" card with 2MB of FAST 16bit RAM onboard. I have the standard 1MB CHIP RAM and then the GVP card with only the built in 1MB 32bit RAM. No other RAM is on the GVP board.
This would conclude that anything I run like "Sysinfo" will more than likely be running in the 16bit RAM.
In Workbench the 1MB CHIP shows up correctly as graphics mem. The "8 UP" card shows up the 2MB 16bit FAST RAM correctly but roughly half is used by Workbench on boot up.
The 1MB on the GVP board never shows up in Workbench/Sysinfo/Showconfig or any other RAM reporting software, regardless of the position of Jumper 12 which leads me to my next question.
The manual says that J12 should be shorted/closed to enable the GVP 1MB 32bit RAM as "Auto" or J12 should be open to designate it as "Extended". With Jumper 12 shorted/closed the system boots with the red "Expansion Board Diagnostic" error screen.
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A 68030 with no 32-bit fast ram won't be hardly any faster than a stock 68000. Ask me how I know. ;)
I'm not familiar with your particular board but I would assume "auto" autoconfigures the memory (presumably into the 32-bit address space), extended - maybe sets it so you run a utility to add the memory? Just a guess. My other guess would be that "auto" autoconfigures it into 16-bit space, and extended into 32-bit space. Some accelerators support both methods. Sounds like a thorough reading of the instruction manual is in your future. ;)
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Cheers Oldsmobile_Mike. Definitely having a good solid reread of the manual ;) Especially with respect to J12 auto/extended configuration.
I understand not having the 32bit SIMMS will severely down it's performance but I still would of expected a general/overall speed increase as apposed to a stock 68000 at 7MHz speed.
What really puzzles me is on stock Amiga's with a 68000 @ 7MHz using Amiga Explorer, maximum reliable throughput speeds I have found over the serial port is 19200 baud. This seems to be the same on this system with the 68030 (supposedly operating correctly). 33K connects but is very unstable and drops out often. I really would of expected more from this board. Surely not having the 32bit FAST RAM wouldn't affect the 68030's ability to throughput serial at a much faster rate? Same setup with Amiga Explorer on my A600 with ACA620 68020 @ 16MHz and the serial speeds are stable as a rock at 56K, never tried higher yet.
The SIMM modules are extremely hard to come by these days. I think I might look at some other form of accelerator card with RAM expansion for this A2000 in the near future.
Appreciate the input from everyone :)
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After more testing I can confirm that the GVP card onboard 1MB RAM does not show up in Workbench, Sysinfo or Showconfig under any circumstances. No matter how I position the jumpers pertaining to the memory configuration the RAM will not show up at all. Worst cases I get the red error screen "Expansion Board Diagnostic" on boot up. Im definitely suspecting the onboard RAM has failed somewhere along the line.
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Sorry about the spam questions. The more and more I look into this card the more it bemuses me.
Reading thoroughly through the manual, it says the board has 1MB surface mount installed 32bit RAM as default. Then there are 3 additional SIMM connectors for extra RAM.
Upon looking at the board, there are 8x surface mount RAM chips labeled "hyb514256b" which is 256K x 4bit DRAM. This would work out to be 1MB of RAM but only 8bits wide true? Or 256KB at total 32bits wide. Unless Im misunderstanding this correctly?
All the SMD RAM chips look factory and definitely not been replaced or anything like that. I really am at a loss here. The manual definitely matches this particular card too.
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Are there any settings pertaining to ram speed that you could try? 60ns, 80ns, or the like? Hate to give up on a card but it definitely sounds like you've found the issue. Do you have another system you can test the card in? How about another card you can test in your system? (just to rule out issues with the slot)
Shame you aren't closer, I've got a bunch of 4MB and 16MB GVP simm's from my old G-Force '040 card. Check Amibay though - there was a guy on there making his own GVP-compatible memory just a year or two ago.
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The more I play around with it the more I agree when said the system will be severely slowed down without 32bit RAM installed. It behaves slightly faster than a stock 68K machine @ 7MHz but certainly not by much. Running WHDLoad does seem a little quicker than stock system. What interests me more than anything though is the 1MB on board RAM. Makes no sense.
No RAM speed settings or anything like that on this card. Pretty much only one jumper pertaining to the RAM config too. Dont have any other cards or A2000's to test/swap parts with but am part of the Adelaide Retro Computer Group so might inquire more about it at the next meet.
Next step will be to look around for RAM SIMMS if they ever come up or being handy with electronics I might look into making or converting other modules to work on this card. Schematics are another thing that seems to be extremely rare or even existent for this old retro gear. Love the Amiga though so will be trying my hardest to get somewhere with it :)
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What interests me more than anything though is the 1MB on board RAM. Makes no sense.
What else is in the autoconfig area? Note that there is a maximum of 8MB autoconfig memory/area in the machine. 2MB are already gone. A bridgeboard takes additional address space, and so do graphics boards. If the 8MB are used up, the GVP will not be able to add its memory to the autoconfig area and you see the red screen.
The jumper meaning is as follows: "Auto" means that the memory goes to the autoconfig area. This is recommended if there is room. If there is no room, you will see the red screen. If it is on "extended", it goes to the 32bit extended area, but will probably not be automatically added to the pool.
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Are there any settings pertaining to ram speed that you could try? 60ns, 80ns, or the like? Hate to give up on a card but it definitely sounds like you've found the issue. Do you have another system you can test the card in? How about another card you can test in your system? (just to rule out issues with the slot)
Shame you aren't closer, I've got a bunch of 4MB and 16MB GVP simm's from my old G-Force '040 card. Check Amibay though - there was a guy on there making his own GVP-compatible memory just a year or two ago.
He makes 16MB SIMMs which aren't compatible with the 030 accelerator. Recently I posted a buy order for the 4MB ones and had lots of people offering to sell me some within hours though.
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This would work out to be 1MB of RAM but only 8bits wide true? Or 256KB at total 32bits wide. Unless Im misunderstanding this correctly?
1MB always means 1024 times 8bits even if it is accessed 4 bytes e.g. 32bits at a time. 1 byte is 8 bits and 1MB is 1024 bytes.
(Actually according to latest standard you need to use 1MiB for 1024x8bit, blame the HD marketing guys who wanted to make their disk look bigger by using MB for 1000x8bit and GB for 1000x1000x8bit).
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What else is in the autoconfig area? Note that there is a maximum of 8MB autoconfig memory/area in the machine. 2MB are already gone. A bridgeboard takes additional address space, and so do graphics boards. If the 8MB are used up, the GVP will not be able to add its memory to the autoconfig area and you see the red screen.
The jumper meaning is as follows: "Auto" means that the memory goes to the autoconfig area. This is recommended if there is room. If there is no room, you will see the red screen. If it is on "extended", it goes to the 32bit extended area, but will probably not be automatically added to the pool.
Nothing else is in the machine. Just the standard 1MB Chip RAM, the 2MB "8-Up" card and the GVP accelerator card with surface mount 1MB RAM and no SIMMS installed. No bridgeboard or graphics boards.
Definitely understanding the "auto" & "extended" modes now. In extended mode the machine boots up but in auto is where I get the red error screen. I definitely don't understand it as the manual says the board can run with just the onboard 1MB 32bit RAM, ie no SIMMS. Not sure why it would thinking there is no room? Either of the two options selected, in Workbench I only have the 1MB Chip RAM and the 2MB Fast RAM from the "8-Up" board and nothing else.
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Nothing else is in the machine. Just the standard 1MB Chip RAM, the 2MB "8-Up" card and the GVP accelerator card with surface mount 1MB RAM and no SIMMS installed. No bridgeboard or graphics boards.
Ok, this *seems* to be clean, but just to be on the safe side: What happens if you remove the "8-Up" board? Some of these extension boards suffer from bad termination on the zorro bus and then break the autoconfig chain.
I definitely don't understand it as the manual says the board can run with just the onboard 1MB 32bit RAM, ie no SIMMS. Not sure why it would thinking there is no room?
Apparently, something in the autoconfig chain is messed up. Whether this is by a conflict on the Zorro bus or by a failing hardware on the board I cannot tell. The only thing I can tell for sure is that the GVP RAM on the board should definitely be autoconfigurable if it is jumpered to do so. I had the 40Mhz version of the same board, and I haven't had an issue with the RAM.
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If you set it to "extended", is there a utility you need to run to add the memory? What does the manual say about that?
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Ok, this *seems* to be clean, but just to be on the safe side: What happens if you remove the "8-Up" board? Some of these extension boards suffer from bad termination on the zorro bus and then break the autoconfig chain.
Apparently, something in the autoconfig chain is messed up. Whether this is by a conflict on the Zorro bus or by a failing hardware on the board I cannot tell. The only thing I can tell for sure is that the GVP RAM on the board should definitely be autoconfigurable if it is jumpered to do so. I had the 40Mhz version of the same board, and I haven't had an issue with the RAM.
That was one of the first things I did to remove the "8-Up" board and it just reduced the systems total RAM to the 1MB Chip RAM which was over half used on boot up by Workbench because of no Fast RAM.
Auto configure mode here still causes the red boot error screen. I agree, the board should definitely be auto configurable without the populated SIMMS but it just won't work under any circumstances. Im still thinking either the cards onboard memory is bad or perhaps there is a fault with the PALS or MACH chip?
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If you set it to "extended", is there a utility you need to run to add the memory? What does the manual say about that?
Extended is the only way I can run the system without any bootup red "diagnostic error" screens.
I haven't got the system setup at the moment but there is no utilities other than what the driver disk installed in the "User-Startup" with the command "CPU xxx" I can't remember the exact arguments after CPU. There is no other utilities other than memory test, FPU or a systeminfo utility.
Interestingly enough the memory test passes but not sure on what memory it's testing. It's very vague in it's output window and no where does that 1MB of 32bit RAM show up in the system.