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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Dandy on November 11, 2016, 07:33:40 AM
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Since 1997, I'm 'proud owner' of a towered Amiga 4000 with CyberstormPPC card, which is still in use.
For a while, I also had a CyberVisionPPC graphics card, but the onboard video ram size of just 8 mB quickly turned out to be insufficient and so I exchanged it for a Voodoo4 PCI graca in the Mediator PCI busboard.
But meanwhile, also the 128 mB 64 Bit wide FastRAM on the CSPPC are too little.
But there exists - at least for WIntel-PCs - the possibility to 'alienate' the GPU and also the graphics memory on the graca and use it for calculations and as working memory, if I got that right.
The CyberVisionPPC is connected to the CyberStormPPC via a "25 mHz local PCI bus" and has "8 mB of 64 Bit wide SGRAM" onboard.
:idea:
Now I was wondering if it could theoretically be possible to make a small harware add-on with - lets say - 128 mB (or more?) of 64 Bit wide SGRAM onboard and to connect this to the „25 mHz local PCI bus“ on the CSPPC with the apropriate plug and provide this additional Ram `somehow to the AmigaOS?
Ram expansion boards like the ZorRAM can only be used for "swapping" - perhaps could more RAM be provided as working memory this way - like on WIntel PCs? It has often been raved about the fast linking of the CVPPC to the CSPPC via this "local PCI bus" - it should somehow be possible to capitalise on it, shouldn't it?
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I don't know about adding memory in the way you described, but there's Amiga users out there who have added more than 1GB of memory to their Amiga's through various combinations of other cards. I remember seeing a screenshot of one a while back, the number across the top of the Workbench screen looked so long, lol. ;)
In any case, you're certainly not limited to 128MB, if you have the right budget ($$$).
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I don't know about adding memory in the way you described, but there's Amiga users out there who have added more than 1GB of memory to their Amiga's through various combinations of other cards. I remember seeing a screenshot of one a while back, the number across the top of the Workbench screen looked so long, lol.
no, he obviously wants it via csppc expansion slot this time, because he already opened other threads on similar topics.
@dandy
you are reffering to a solution similar to alienating rtg ram on pci video cards available via mediator, though those cards are available via zorro memory spacew, while cybervisionppc must be available within 128mb cpu expansion window on a4k memory map, so it wouldnt solve anything, even if an extension laike that was available. the solution would rather be a completely new redesigned motherboard without such bottlenecks. you may wait for vampire standalone or better ask such questions directly on a1k.
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I might be mistaken, but the only seperation you can do with 32bit x86 machines gfx card ram is to, in total (system ram and GPU ram) go beyond the 4gig addressable memory. Typically 4 gig would be the limit, so system ram would shrink in favor of the GPU.
With things like pae however some systems went beyond this limit.
This of course isn't required for the vast majority of hardware these days as most things are 64bit.
In regards to csppc/a4k, its tricky because of the (frankly crap) way memory is addressed. There's only 128meg space addressable to the CPU. The space directly above this is used for things like Zorro (hence things like zorram).
Your idea, could in theory work, but I don't think it'd be much faster (possibly slower) than zorram, as while the bus is 25mhz, and the ram 64bit, the bus (correct me if I'm wrong someone) is only 32bit.
There's also the fact that the csppc firmware is hardcoded with the 128meg limit. This has been patched before trying to bypass the restrictions, but it simply doesn't work due to other hardware limitations.
Long story short, there's simply no way to get more than 128meg system ram. At least not in a way that won't cripple performance.
p.s. take this with a grain of salt. I'm going by memory here. While details may not be exact the crux is, I believe, pretty accurate.
While not ideal something like VMM or Gigamem might be your best options for the moment.
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There's also the fact that the csppc firmware is hardcoded with the 128meg limit.
according to whats i been told on a1k, its not hardcoded on any accelerator firmware but restricted by a memory map implemented in a particular amiga chipset. ergo, you would have to modify that chipset in order to implement another memory map. so except some simple hardware hack is possible, which i doubt, it amounts to building a whole new amiga compatible hardware.
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I was under the impression it was both hardcoded in firmware in addition to the memory map. I vaguely recall reading about someone patching the firmware in an attempt to bypass this.
Its quite possible I'm wrong about this though.
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I have nearly 1GB of RAM on my 4000T. The new version of OS4.1 classic will address ZIII RAM cards as system RAM on systems with ZorRAM and BigRAM+ cards soon if not already. My CSPPC has been upgraded to a 420MHZ clocked one and I have a Rev 6 060 running at 75Mhz currently. I dont like OS4 on this machine mostly because of the previous RAM limitations, but it does run very well even at that. It completly screams on 3.9 and I even have mosly true color icons from the OS4.1 set that Ken did awhile back.
Here is my system conig:
CSPPC with 128MB
2X BigRAM+ boards at 512MB
16MB on 4000T
Radeon 9250 with 256MB, using 200 as system RAM through mediator
The key is using your CSPPC SCSI with a, ACARD IDE to SCSI adapter on it and using a fast SSD drive. Its amazing.
I also have kicked everything into fastram I can after boot up since I have so much as far as Amiga RAM goes.
Magnetic has seen my system run and can tell you how fast it feels too ;)
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Yes it is possible to add additional system memory to the CSPPC local PCI slot. The GREX when connected to the CSPPC adds GFX card memory (like a Voodoo), however it does not provide the software feature like Mediator does to add it as system RAM. So two problems with this as there is a missing software feature to remap PCI memory (really Zorro memory) into system memory and you need a GREX busboard.
Since the PCI connector on the CSPPC is undocumented it is unlikely someone is going to reverse engineer and design a Radeon adapter for the CSPPC.
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I have nearly 1GB of RAM on my 4000T. The new version of OS4.1 classic will address ZIII RAM cards as system RAM on systems with ZorRAM and BigRAM+ cards soon if not already. My CSPPC has been upgraded to a 420MHZ clocked one and I have a Rev 6 060 running at 75Mhz currently. I dont like OS4 on this machine mostly because of the previous RAM limitations, but it does run very well even at that. It completly screams on 3.9 and I even have mosly true color icons from the OS4.1 set that Ken did awhile back.
Here is my system conig:
CSPPC with 128MB
2X BigRAM+ boards at 512MB
16MB on 4000T
Radeon 9250 with 256MB, using 200 as system RAM through mediator
The key is using your CSPPC SCSI with a, ACARD IDE to SCSI adapter on it and using a fast SSD drive. Its amazing.
I also have kicked everything into fastram I can after boot up since I have so much as far as Amiga RAM goes.
Magnetic has seen my system run and can tell you how fast it feels too ;)
You might want to ask Karlos if he'd give you his 3.9 setup. The whole OS runs from a RAD: in Fastram. So fast you wouldn't believe it's 25 year old hardware. :)
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You might want to ask Karlos if he'd give you his 3.9 setup. The whole OS runs from a RAD: in Fastram. So fast you wouldn't believe it's 25 year old hardware. :)
How do I get in touch, would love to try that!
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How did you overclock it to 420Mhz?! Can the BPPC be overclocked like this?
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I'd hazard a guess its a 300, 333, or 366 mhz 604 set to 84*5, or 70*6 or similar.
Bppcs probably can't reach the same level because the 603 default clocks don't go as high, but you can reach around the 300-380mhz level by replacing the CPU with a faster one and then over clocking.
Sidebar, but I've gotta ask. Is that a man or woman in your avatar pic? I've been trying to work it out for a while now.
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How did you overclock it to 420Mhz?!
Like this:
http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?87713-Cyberstorm-PPC-repaired-and-supercharged
Swap the PPC processor with a 400MHz part, put a 60MHz oscillator and set the PPC clock multiplier to 7x.
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Is there a 7x multiplier by default? I'd always though 5.5 was the highest, with 6x being available when a lower multiplier was used (2.5) in conjunction with a higher clocked CPU (ala amd k6-2 at between 400 and 500mhz being used in some non super socket 7 boards).
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Its a 400MHZ CPU that replaces my 233. Overclocked just a tad to 420
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awesome ! Did Hese do the upgrade ? There is a guy in Poland but he asks as much as a new CSPPC costs currently:confused:
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Just curious, but why 60*7? 70*6 would be faster. Some part of the card not liking a 70mhz clock?
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There is an alternative:
Use GigaMem and attach an HyperOS Hyperdrive to your scsi interface with a suitable adapter. Map the Hyperdrive as your virtual memory drive. It will be the closest thing to what you want without having to resort doing some heavy hacking that no one has even done yet.
You will reap the benefits of the fast access times that ram provides in your speedy scsi bus.
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Is there anything at OS3.9 that requires more then 128 MB RAM? I think more RAM is not needed even for WarpOS stuff.
Here is my recent testing of CSPPC 604e/200 060/50 (BLUE color) comparing to CSPPC 604e/366 060/66 (ORANGE color)
(http://jack.untergrund.net/wp-content/uploads/cyber_graf_3.png)
(transl: Maximální = Maximum)
(http://jack.untergrund.net/wp-content/uploads/cyber_graf_2.png)
(transl: Prumerne = Average)
(http://jack.untergrund.net/wp-content/uploads/cyber_graf_6.png)
(http://jack.untergrund.net/wp-content/uploads/cyber_graf_4.png)
(http://jack.untergrund.net/wp-content/uploads/cyber_graf_5.png)
=> almost double frequency = about 10-15% real speedup (most disapointing was the video encoding result)
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FroggerNG is something I noticed benefits quite a bit from having kick start in fastram. At least on a 40mhz '040 based a1200.
As for benefits of more than 128meg, browsing is an obvious one. Compiling is another. Anything graphics oriented can always use more ram (especially things like imagefx, art effects, 3d rendering, etc.). Emulation of things like a PC or Mac is another. Multitasking is of course another. There's a plethora of reasons why 128meg can be restricting. PDF documents can be huge (and heavy). Using ram: as a temporary drive for uncompressing often causes a shortage in ram too (even just uncompressing a single large file).
It really depends on how a person uses their Amiga. Its easy for 128meg to be more than enough, but equally easy to have it not nearly enough.
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awesome ! Did Hese do the upgrade ? There is a guy in Poland but he asks as much as a new CSPPC costs currently:confused:
I did it myself after a lot of debating and used some of the gear at night where I work to do the job. Lucky for me the equipment I work on still used PPC and it wasnt to hard to get some help with the swap.
I got in trouble for using the gear for personal use though and cant do it again.
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How do I get in touch, would love to try that!
http://www.amiga.org/forums/member.php?u=810 :)
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I don't know about adding memory in the way you described, but there's Amiga users out there who have added more than 1GB of memory to their Amiga's through various combinations of other cards. I remember seeing a screenshot of one a while back, the number across the top of the Workbench screen looked so long, lol. ;)
In any case, you're certainly not limited to 128MB, if you have the right budget ($$$).[
Hi Mike,
I know.
But if I got it right, the RAM beyond the 128 mB on the CSPPC cannot be used as FastRAM, it can only be used as 'Virtual Memory'.
And this is not due to lacking $$$ or Euros (hey, these were meant to be three Euro symbols: %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8364;%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8364;%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8364; - is AOrg incapable to display the Euro symbol?), but it is due to technical limitations of the Amiga(OS).
Bummer!
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@dandy
no, he obviously wants it via csppc expansion slot this time,
What do you mean with 'this time'?
because he already opened other threads on similar topics.
you are reffering to a solution similar to alienating rtg ram on pci video cards available via mediator, though those cards are available via zorro memory spacew, while cybervisionppc must be available within 128mb cpu expansion window on a4k memory map, so it wouldnt solve anything, even if an extension laike that was available. the solution would rather be a completely new redesigned motherboard without such bottlenecks. you may wait for vampire standalone or better ask such questions directly on a1k.
I understand.
Bummer!
More FastRAM would be soooo welcome!
And I'm talking about fast FastRAM, as on the CSPPC (60-70 ns; 64 bit interleaved RAM access) - not about the max. 16 mB slow onboard 32 bit FastRAM or virtual Zorro 32 bit RAM...
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Sidebar, but I've gotta ask. Is that a man or woman in your avatar pic? I've been trying to work it out for a while now.
:biglaugh:
Looks a bit like Angie Merkel in her twenties...
:roflmao:
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@ jack-3d
@Dandy
Is there anything at OS3.9 that requires more then 128 MB RAM? I think more RAM is not needed even for WarpOS stuff.
Try to load 2 or 3 jpeg photos (each of a size of roughly 12 mB) into ArtEffect (enough virtual Ram enabled), while there are other programs (like Wildfire 7 PPC, SnapShoter and Fantastic Dreams) working in the background, and watch the available RAM disappear...
:-(
Aside from the applications themselves, a lot of ram is consumed by the graphics you load.
As long as you use photos (each with a size of not larger than - lets say - 3 or 4 mB), all works well.
When I have just the OS and e.g. ArtEffect running and load a jpg-photo of just 4mB, ArtEffect 'unpacks' the jpg and makes roughly 70 mB of it in its working memory...
But we're living in a time where digital cameras are very high-res and one single hi-res photo can easily have a size of 12 mB...
Due to ArtEffect's internal structure already loading one single of such big hi-res photos can eat up all the FastRAM on a CSPPC...not to mention having two of them in memory for certain special effects...
Here is my recent testing of CSPPC 604e/200 060/50 (BLUE color) comparing to CSPPC 604e/366 060/66 (ORANGE color)
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Thanks for posting the test results!
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Its easy for 128meg to be more than enough, but equally easy to have it not nearly enough.
1+
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I believe the biggest problem with more ram on a CSPPC or MKIII is the fast slot on A3000 and A4000 can only address 128mb of ram. I don't think there are physically more address lines that can be used to allow the A3000/A4000 to access more than 128MB even with 060 on the CPU card. It also might be an issue with how the expansion library works with the fast slot to add ram to 32 bit space. If it is not a hardware issue, it might require patching OS ROM functions to allow them to support more than 128mb on the fast slot. The best option I could think of that might work would be a Z3 board that connections to a fast slot CPU card that allow the additional config of memory over 128MB of ram on a a fast slot card. The actual Z3 bus would not have to actually have the ram on it but a few of the signals and allocation functions could work that way and the actual memory would be local on the fast slot for the data transfer. Not sure that would work but if it is a hardware issue then that could solve it. Just an idea.
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@ fishy_fiz - #4:
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In regards to csppc/a4k,
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Your idea, could in theory work, but I don't think it'd be much faster (possibly slower) than zorram, as while the bus is 25mhz, and the ram 64bit, the bus (correct me if I'm wrong someone) is only 32bit.
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Assuming you're talking about the data bus on the CSPPC, I got these figures for you from Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerUP_):
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CyberStorm PPC:
This accelerator board was designed for Amiga 3000 and Amiga 4000. The accelerator board was famous for its high performance due to its 64 bit wide memory bus and PowerPC 604e processor.[25] According to Phase 5 it could sustain memory transfers up to 68 MB/s on the 68060 and up to 160 MB/s on the 604e.
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Four 72 pin SIMM sockets accepting 128 MB RAM, 64 bit wide
I have no information regarding the speed of the data bus.
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I believe the biggest problem with more ram on a CSPPC or MKIII is the fast slot on A3000 and A4000 can only address 128mb of ram. I don't think there are physically more address lines that can be used to allow the A3000/A4000 to access more than 128MB even with 060 on the CPU card.
I specifically asked about 128 MB limit for fast cpu on Apollo core forum and Biggun answered there is no such limit as they plan way more ram for big box Vampire. So I suppose the limit is made by phase5 on their cards.
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There might not be a limit if you patch exec or other functions like they had to do with the Vampire 2 on the A600 (and A500 I believe).
It was stated on http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5¬e=2047&x=1&z=L4DAbc that there is no physical limit. What exactly that means is not clear. Software or electrical is still possible.
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There might not be a limit if you patch exec or other functions like they had to do with the Vampire 2 on the A600 (and A500 I believe).
It was stated on http://www.apollo-core.com/knowledge.php?b=5¬e=2047&x=1&z=L4DAbc that there is no physical limit. What exactly that means is not clear. Software or electrical is still possible.
Interesting thread over there. With the speed of that bus and really fast memory I would be very surprised if you could fill .5Gig.
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I believe the biggest problem with more ram on a CSPPC or MKIII is the fast slot on A3000 and A4000 can only address 128mb of ram. I don't think there are physically more address lines that can be used to allow the A3000/A4000 to access more than 128MB even with 060 on the CPU card.
According to this, the slot has all address lines.
http://www.thule.no/haynie/systems/amiga3k/docs/a3kcpu.pdf
Local bus slot memory doesn't use autoconfig and only 128mb was reserved, however I'm sure it would have been possible to have worked round that if that hadn't seemed like a ridiculous amount of memory when the cpu cards were designed. If I were designing an accelerator today then I'd have 4gb of ram soldered to it and then have the rom on the cpu card wait until everything else had been autoconfig'ed and then map all the unused address space as ram.
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According to this, the slot has all address lines.
http://www.thule.no/haynie/systems/amiga3k/docs/a3kcpu.pdf
Local bus slot memory doesn't use autoconfig and only 128mb was reserved, however I'm sure it would have been possible to have worked round that if that hadn't seemed like a ridiculous amount of memory when the cpu cards were designed. If I were designing an accelerator today then I'd have 4gb of ram soldered to it and then have the rom on the cpu card wait until everything else had been autoconfig'ed and then map all the unused address space as ram.
Good find on the PDF. I remember seeing that before. I was looking for it again. The fast slot looks like it is just and extension of the 030 bus. I still think patching the KS will be needed to support more than 128mb of ram on that bus. From reading posts on the zorram and DKB and other large Z3 memeory expansions, there are a lot of bugs in expansion.library that will require fixing to make things happen easily.
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@ jack-3d
Try to load 2 or 3 jpeg photos (each of a size of roughly 12 mB) into ArtEffect (enough virtual Ram enabled), while there are other programs (like Wildfire 7 PPC, SnapShoter and Fantastic Dreams) working in the background, and watch the available RAM disappear...
:-(
Aside from the applications themselves, a lot of ram is consumed by the graphics you load.
As long as you use photos (each with a size of not larger than - lets say - 3 or 4 mB), all works well.
When I have just the OS and e.g. ArtEffect running and load a jpg-photo of just 4mB, ArtEffect 'unpacks' the jpg and makes roughly 70 mB of it in its working memory...
But we're living in a time where digital cameras are very high-res and one single hi-res photo can easily have a size of 12 mB...
Due to ArtEffect's internal structure already loading one single of such big hi-res photos can eat up all the FastRAM on a CSPPC...not to mention having two of them in memory for certain special effects...
Correct, the ArtEffect could be the one, that is able to eat all your ram within seconds. But doesnt this support swap file on your disk drive? CSPPC/MK3 has SCSI3 controller and my disk runs slightly over 30 MB/s. The 68k RAM read/write speed is about 40 MB/s so its not so big difference.
I would be happy to have 512 MB FAST RAM of course, but I dont consider ZORRAM as "fast" and works only as placebo. Lets wait for Vampire A3/4000, we should finally get more then 128 FAAAST RAM.
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I still think patching the KS will be needed to support more than 128mb of ram on that bus. From reading posts on the zorram and DKB and other large Z3 memeory expansions, there are a lot of bugs in expansion.library that will require fixing to make things happen easily.
expansion.library wouldn't be necessary as I don't think you can autoconfig from the local bus, a resident module in rom that adds memory to exec directly would probably do it. Or you could add the extra memory in a command called from user-startup.