Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Motormouth on January 28, 2016, 04:33:15 AM
-
I saw mention that sonnet crescendo 7200 were being used in amiga's with mediators in the "....crazy ebay postings" thread.
Is it this true!!! Was this not what SharkPPC was going to be?
Did anyone here try this!
Did anyone attempt something similar with Prometheus?
Here is more information:
https://github.com/Sakura-IT/SonnetAmiga
-
interesting if this works. although doesn't mention the A1200
-
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=76633
-
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=76633
@JJ This is a great thread.........
eab has kept its technical edge.
-
As these cards are virtually unobtainable I still wonder where this is going.
What next, build more Sonnet 7200s?
-
Its all in his first post :)
First of all, I like to tinker with the software and the hardware side of Amigas. I know the discussion about this topic has tended to be in the direction of people questioning WHY you would want this as it would be slow etc etc. but that’s not the point. For me, it’s part of the hobby and I do it because I CAN do it.
-
@Niding
I get where he is coming from.
Personally I think it would be a neat option.
But I cannot find ANY of these boards in working order.
For those who have working Sonnet 7200s, and are pursuing this I can see the point of getting it working from a hobbyist standpoint.
But without the Sonnet boards, those following this that
want to duplicate it may be in for a disappointment.
-
@Niding
I get where he is coming from.
Personally I think it would be a neat option.
But I cannot find ANY of these boards in working order.
For those who have working Sonnet 7200s, and are pursuing this I can see the point of getting it working from a hobbyist standpoint.
But without the Sonnet boards, those following this that
want to duplicate it may be in for a disappointment.
Yeah this is like one of those cases where someone builds a one-off hardware solution and never offers it or plans to make it to the public. Hey, that's neat, but...
-
The reason I am interested is I happen to have a PowerMac 7200 with a Sonnet crescendo 7200 fully populated with ram (if you think the sonnet is rare the ram for the sonnet and the 7200 is also very uncommon).
-
The reason I am interested is I happen to have a PowerMac 7200 with a Sonnet crescendo 7200 fully populated with ram (if you think the sonnet is rare the ram for the sonnet and the 7200 is also very uncommon).
That make you one of the lucky few that can consider this.
Cool.
-
It was only luck. I just picked the old powermac to play with MacOS and to network with my Amiga with Fusion and Emplant. I was not thinking of the of the card.
The problem is that I don't have a mediator.
-
It was only luck. I just picked the old powermac to play with MacOS and to network with my Amiga with Fusion and Emplant. I was not thinking of the of the card.
The problem is that I don't have a mediator.
Get ready to be inundated by requests that you sell the card.
-
The problem is that I don't have a mediator.
on the contrary. that is fortunate. because you can now buy yourself a current mediator model with extended voltage supply (i think it is an additional 3,3 volt rail) which is necessary for the sonnet. an old mediator like mine is not suitable for this without modifications.
-
on the contrary. that is fortunate. because you can now buy yourself a current mediator model with extended voltage supply (i think it is an additional 3,3 volt rail) which is necessary for the sonnet. an old mediator like mine is not suitable for this without modifications.
Actually I have a Prometheus. It has three problems with the sonnet amiga project:
1) it would need the 3.3V hack
2) it would need a hardware upgrade for busmastering
3) It lags behind the mediator in the sonnet amiga project.
It looks like from the EAB thread that the project creators wanted to use Prometheus originally.....
-
Actually I have a Prometheus. It has three problems with the sonnet amiga project:
1) it would need the 3.3V hack
2) it would need a hardware upgrade for busmastering
3) It lags behind the mediator in the sonnet amiga project.
It looks like from the EAB thread that the project creators wanted to use Prometheus originally.....
afaik the hardware upgrade for busmastering was available from eab 's m.boehmer. i think it was tersters release. would have to look up a1k for this. 3.3 hack might be realized with some voltage converter or something, but then who knows if its wort the hassle. not for me, i must admit.
-
That make you one of the lucky few that can consider this.
Cool.
@Iggy Instead of looking for a Sonnet Crescendo 7200, maybe look for a powermac 7200 that has been "upgraded" maybe on Craigslist or equivalent. That is how I got mine.
-
afaik the hardware upgrade for busmastering was available from eab 's m.boehmer. i think it was tersters release. would have to look up a1k for this. 3.3 hack might be realized with some voltage converter or something, but then who knows if its wort the hassle. not for me, i must admit.
@wawrzon Thanks for the info :) very useful!
The 3.3 hack can be performed on the sonnet directly rather than trying to mod the PCI slots from PCI 2.1 to PCI 2.2. That info was on the EAB thread and the Github link.
Always wanted to play with the big boys and have a G3 or G4 in my amiga, the fastest Amiga I have is a 68040 25 mhz, I know a lot of you have 68060 and G4 on this site.
-
@Iggy Instead of looking for a Sonnet Crescendo 7200, maybe look for a powermac 7200 that has been "upgraded" maybe on Craigslist or equivalent. That is how I got mine.
You lucked out, your's works.
I can't find Mac 7200, let alone upgraded 7200s.
And the Sonnet boards I can find are all 'as is'.
-
Well, at least we now know why Elbox scrapped the SharkPPC. A shame, too, 'cos I'm sure they could have bundled one of their overpriced Radeon cards with it.
@Metalguy66,
If you see this, that decked out A4000 you offered me, I may be interested in it now...... ;) I'll call you later.
-
You lucked out, your's works.
I can't find Mac 7200, let alone upgraded 7200s.
And the Sonnet boards I can find are all 'as is'.
Iggy,
Power PC macs pop up in H-Town all the time. If you want, I can keep a look out for one I can gut a Sonnet card from for you. I never see them for more than 100$ or so.
-
The reason I am interested is I happen to have a PowerMac 7200 with a Sonnet crescendo 7200 fully populated with ram (if you think the sonnet is rare the ram for the sonnet and the 7200 is also very uncommon).
OWC sells 128 meg FPM DIMMs which are compatible with the Crescendo 7200 for $7.50 USD apiece.
-
It is really great that Crescendo 7200 works with Mediator. Where can I buy it? Nowhere? Great...
PS. I have Time Machine at home. No, you can't use it.
-
Just bought three pieces, I'll soon find out how compatible they are with the Crescendo.
-
OWC sells 128 meg FPM DIMMs which are compatible with the Crescendo 7200 for $7.50 USD apiece.
That is good that some one sells them.
These modules are doubly odd, first they are FPM (or Fast Page mode), which was not rare but was a little less common than standard DIMMs
What makes these a bit wacky is the fact they were 5V. By that time 3.3V was common.
This is a bit interesting because the 3.3V rail is what the sonnet needs to work
-
That is good that some one sells them.
These modules are doubly odd, first they are FPM (or Fast Page mode), which was not rare but was a little less common than standard DIMMs
What makes these a bit wacky is the fact they were 5V. By that time 3.3V was common.
This is a bit interesting because the 3.3V rail is what the sonnet needs to work
All the Power Macs of the time after the first generation NuBus Power Macs before the G3 (except the Power Mac 4400) used 5 volt FPM DIMMs. All the PowerPC CPUs of the time before the G3 took 3.3 or 2.5 volts. It's not surprising that an accelerator card for a Power Mac 7200 would take the same kind of memory as the Power Mac itself. Sonnet even advertised that you could take the memory from the motherboard and use it on the accelerator card.
-
Further digging one finds this is a dead end, hardware is again hard to find. Ah well.
-
Indeed, checked the PowerMac lot but nada :)
I did however get reminded of my http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_wgs/specs/mac_wgs_9650_350.html that I should give a better spot in my workroom :cool:
-
All the Power Macs of the time after the first generation NuBus Power Macs before the G3 (except the Power Mac 4400) used 5 volt FPM DIMMs. All the PowerPC CPUs of the time before the G3 took 3.3 or 2.5 volts. It's not surprising that an accelerator card for a Power Mac 7200 would take the same kind of memory as the Power Mac itself. Sonnet even advertised that you could take the memory from the motherboard and use it on the accelerator card.
I get the FPM (reminds me of the A3000). But why mac uses the less common 5v than 3.3v. If these were EDO they would be what servers used during that generation.
It is like they go out of way to be different just to be different.
Indeed, checked the PowerMac lot but nada :)
I did however get reminded of my http://www.everymac.com/systems/apple/mac_wgs/specs/mac_wgs_9650_350.html that I should give a better spot in my workroom :cool:
@DutchinUSA
Nice Machine!!! I know this is an Amiga web site but you have to admire some high end macs builds from the 90s.
-
I get the FPM (reminds me of the A3000). But why mac uses the less common 5v than 3.3v. If these were EDO they would be what servers used during that generation.
It is like they go out of way to be different just to be different.
To be fair, Power Macs started using FPM 5 volt DIMMs before 3.3 volt EDO DIMMs were around and before any servers started using (non-proprietary) 64 bit DIMMs.
@DutchinUSA
Nice Machine!!! I know this is an Amiga web site but you have to admire some high end macs builds from the 90s.
I have one which is a full time NetBSD server which has run for more than a decade straight. It has a 1 GHz Sonnet upgrade, 1.5 gigs of memory and a 2 TB hardware mirrored SATA enclosure on a SATA-SCSI adapter connected to an 80 MB/sec ATTO SCSI card. Wonderful, high quality hardware!
-
Funnily enough I bought one of these ages ago for two reasons. The first and silly reason was because this was the device that was used in the Shark PPC advertising. The second reason was because I could always reuse it to boost the power to a 7200 if I wanted to run BeOS on it.
The second reason was a folly for two reasons. Turns out I no longer owned a 7200. I had given it away and I mistakenly thought you could run BeOS on a 7200 when it was the 7300 it worked on (I still have one of those).
I didn't mind since I paid like $25 for it. It's been sitting on a shelf for ages gathering dust. Now maybe I could put it to good use! Except I don't have a Mediator board just a Prometheus. I seem to have very weird luck.
-
Funnily enough I bought one of these ages ago for two reasons. The first and silly reason was because this was the device that was used in the Shark PPC advertising. The second reason was because I could always reuse it to boost the power to a 7200 if I wanted to run BeOS on it.
The second reason was a folly for two reasons. Turns out I no longer owned a 7200. I had given it away and I mistakenly thought you could run BeOS on a 7200 when it was the 7300 it worked on (I still have one of those).
I didn't mind since I paid like $25 for it. It's been sitting on a shelf for ages gathering dust. Now maybe I could put it to good use! Except I don't have a Mediator board just a Prometheus. I seem to have very weird luck.
Now that you have brought them up, wouldn't the 7300 be a more powerful board to port something to?
-
Did anyone here try this!
Yes, it works. The list of tested software is here (https://github.com/Sakura-IT/SonnetAmiga/wiki/compatible-software).
Did anyone attempt something similar with Prometheus?
Not gonna work. Even if you had Prometheus upgraded by Mr. Boehmer, even if you modded the Sonnet card power supply, there's still a problem of software support. No one is working on Prometheus support.
Anyone wanting to add support for Prometheus is more than welcome to join us. Knowledge of 68k and PPC assembly is required. You know where to find us (https://github.com/Sakura-IT/SonnetAmiga).
interesting if this works. although doesn't mention the A1200
The code supporting A1200 was written but is buggy (partly a problem with pci.library), that's the only reason for not mentioning it in README.
-
Some of my experiences with Sonnet in Amiga: HERE (http://jack.untergrund.net/2017/01/16/amiga-goes-sonnet-crescendo-powerpc-part1-en/)
-
If you read my previous article (http://jack.untergrund.net/2017/01/16/amiga-goes-sonnet-crescendo-powerpc-part1-en/) about Sonnet on Amiga, HERE is follow up article (http://jack.untergrund.net/2017/01/22/amiga-goes-sonnet-crescendo-powerpc-part2-en/) this time with more action ;o)
-
Intresting stuff - keep posting jack-3d!
-
It´s a shame i remember that the crescendo was highly discounted on sonnet site for years you can purchase a new one for like 50 usd, and ebay was full of them. But now sure they are all recycled or trashed.
-
If you read my previous article (http://jack.untergrund.net/2017/01/16/amiga-goes-sonnet-crescendo-powerpc-part1-en/) about Sonnet on Amiga, HERE is follow up article (http://jack.untergrund.net/2017/01/22/amiga-goes-sonnet-crescendo-powerpc-part2-en/) this time with more action ;o)
Thanks for sharing! I assume you're using this (http://aminet.net/package/driver/other/SonnetLibrary)? Or is there some other software you're using to get it working?
-
Nice site, @jack-3d!
-
Iggy,
Power PC macs pop up in H-Town all the time. If you want, I can keep a look out for one I can gut a Sonnet card from for you. I never see them for more than 100$ or so.
I'm looking for a TSATA Tempo PCI SATA card. If you find on of those I'll pay for it. I've been striking out on eBay
-
Thanks for sharing! I assume you're using this (http://aminet.net/package/driver/other/SonnetLibrary)? Or is there some other software you're using to get it working?
Yes this is the basic library that replaces powerpc.library function. Also you need to use the latest pci.library from elbox which detects your Sonnet and allows to use it.
But the are way more things that are needed for example patched RTG driver, patched chunkyppc.library, patched warp3d driver and of course every warpOS executable must be patched to call sonnet.library instead of powerpc.library. I will make article about installation for sure but once I finish my review series. Everyone who is interested in this project you can start checking apple second-hands maybe some of the powermacs includes that.
-
Been looking for one of these cards to play with forever. Hard to believe how many were sold and none ever show up for sale.
-
I am looking forward to your installation guide jack-3d as I've been stumbling through getting this working in my setup. I fortunately bought one of these cards on a lark since it was the model used for the photos of the SharkPPC. It cost me $25 USD. :)
Needless to say I am really stoked about this project and finally putting this card to use.
-
Yes this is the basic library that replaces powerpc.library function. Also you need to use the latest pci.library from elbox which detects your Sonnet and allows to use it.
But the are way more things that are needed for example patched RTG driver, patched chunkyppc.library, patched warp3d driver and of course every warpOS executable must be patched to call sonnet.library instead of powerpc.library. I will make article about installation for sure but once I finish my review series. Everyone who is interested in this project you can start checking apple second-hands maybe some of the powermacs includes that.
I actually don't even have a Mediator, so can't partake in these experiments :)
But nice to see some new work being done on the Classic PPC side. I thought I saw that Sam Jordan (WarpOS author) had resurfaced somewhat recently and was doing some new WarpOS work for another experimental project... maybe it was this one?
-
Just finished 3rd article (http://jack.untergrund.net/2017/02/09/amiga-goes-sonnet-crescendo-powerpc-part3-en/) this time focused on Warp3D stuff.
-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sonnet-Crescendo-PCI-G3-300MHz-1M-Upgrade-for-Power-Mac-PPCG3-300-1M-/371820567166?hash=item56923b9a7e:g:8YwAAOSw6DtYWy~~
I have no idea if this one would work. But there are 3 of them.
-
Sorry these are not compatible ones. You need Sonnet Crescendo 7200 models.
-
Sorry these are not compatible ones. You need Sonnet Crescendo 7200 models.
And those are made with unobtainium.
Now that we know these work, why isn't anyone trying to reverse engineer them?
They are obviously the fastest PPC option for legacy systems.
And if new cards could be built, there are faster G3 processors that could be used.
The only problem I see is the limited number of WarpOS titles.
But its damned cool to see a legacy system cranking away like that!
-
Would Sonnet consider publishing the board layout? The thing is old and most likely publishing will not really harm sales of their current portfolio?
-
Would Sonnet consider publishing the board layout? The thing is old and most likely publishing will not really harm sales of their current portfolio?
Ask them. They can reply positively, ignore you or turn you down, but it can't hurt to ask.
-
Realtime comparison of Cyberstorm PPC 604e/333 and Sonnet G3/500 (http://jack.untergrund.net/2017/04/23/amiga-goes-sonnet-crescendo-powerpc-part4-en/)
-
Seems the Amiga Community knowing about these now has made the "cheap" cards Sonnett blew out for $25 if i remember back when they were doing it has now reached "Amiga" prices. Seen a few on Amibay for over $500.
Really makes me mad at the greed some of the people in our community sink down. Privateering is just wrong.
-
Realtime comparison of Cyberstorm PPC 604e/333 and Sonnet G3/500 (http://jack.untergrund.net/2017/04/23/amiga-goes-sonnet-crescendo-powerpc-part4-en/)
overall sonnes doesnt seem to have much edge on cyberstorm, according to your tests. the one signifficant thing is video playback, which differs so much likely because cyberstorm needs to feed data via pio zorro3 to mediator pci bus rtg card while sonnet can use dma to that rtg card directly/locally on pci.
-
Really makes me mad at the greed some of the people in our community sink down. Privateering is just wrong.
its a free market. why should nyone be required to sell whatever is considered a rare luxus to anyone else who would be showing off with it for a decent price?
-
PPC604e was excellent CPU and it has six-stage pipeline. PPC603e and PPC750 has four-stage pipeline both.
Dont forget my Cyberstorm PPC has the cpu exchanged for the latest revision clocked at 333 MHz. Most of the Amiga users still have the 180/200/233 versions.
When I get Blizzard PPC 603e with Mediator and Voodoo I will do another comparison. This time it will be family related PPCs running both on PCI bus and Voodoo.
-
its a free market. why should nyone be required to sell whatever is considered a rare luxus to anyone else who would be showing off with it for a decent price?
Sure thats a fair statement, but the fact remains that these were selling at a fraction of the price before this project. My point is that we are far to small to support this kind of greed, and greed is exactly what it is. If people are willing to pay that they can, but the lack of them being sold tells me otherwise.
-
talk to people who buy them. you think they care of your approval?
-
I am not happy how the prices increased, but there is nothing I can do about it.
On the other hand how much do you think cost me the Cyberstorm PPC including all the upgrades (604e/333 MHz, 060 rev6)? About 1400 EUR... :/
-
Great article with good comparisons and movies, thank you Jack-3d !
-
talk to people who buy them. you think they care of your approval?
Still doesn't makes them NOT greedy f*cks. :roflmao:
overall sonnes doesnt seem to have much edge on cyberstorm, according to your tests. the one signifficant thing is video playback, which differs so much likely because cyberstorm needs to feed data via pio zorro3 to mediator pci bus rtg card while sonnet can use dma to that rtg card directly/locally on pci.
Look like a pretty significant advantage to me.
And that's just a G3 cpu, imagine what a G4 would perform like, especially since they can run 2 or 3 times faster.
Again, an updated version of this card would be SO cool.
-
Again, an updated version of this card would be SO cool.
:D Ratte and Mastatabs from a1k.org are working on that..... it´s done, when it´s done......
-
:D Ratte and Mastatabs from a1k.org are working on that..... it´s done, when it´s done......
Why don't we have people like that working over in this forum? :laughing:
-
:D Ratte and Mastatabs from a1k.org are working on that..... it´s done, when it´s done......
Do tell...
-
Do tell...
the guys are hardware geeks, there are many hardware projects on a1k, but i bet, none that complex. i wouldnt count on that much, not very soon at least.
admittedly there are accels and rtg extensions for amiga, even motherboard replacements, but to my knowledge nothing in multiple hundred mhz signal frequency region.
-
:D Ratte and Mastatabs from a1k.org are working on that..... it´s done, when it´s done......
VERY cool!
Imagine how that could help unify the OS3.X and OS4 communities.
WarpOS, possibly OS4, much better Linux capability.
Even with significantly less software support, I'd prefer this approach over something like the Vampire.
It appeals to the hacker in me.
Come to think of it, the two are NOT mutually exclusive and COULD be installed on the same system.
Legacy hardware add-ons that let those systems kick ass?
Why TF not?
Why don't we have people like that working over in this forum? :laughing:
They are in the community, why do they have to be part of the forum?
The problem is they aren't too into sharing.
-
They are in the community, why do they have to be part of the forum?
The problem is they aren't too into sharing.
I didn't necessarily mean them specifically, just people working on those kind of high-level projects. :idea:
That being said, a1k is primarily a German-language site, as we all know. Would be nice if they were members of an English-speaking forum, as well. Y'know, for us dumb Americans who'd also like to buy their products and/or offer support, contribute, etc.
I wonder if it's a cultural thing? Are Germans just generally inclined to be more technologically innovative? I.e., Protein, red A500+ boards, GBA 1000, etc. #NoHitlerReferences :lol:
-
...#NoHitlerReferences :lol:
Why NOT?
Doesn't everything derisive HAVE to degenerate into those? :hammer:
On Germans, many DO speak English (the ratio is far higher than people who's native tongue is English that speak German).
I exchange messages with Germans all the time on MorphZone.
And there IS Google Translate.
Anyway, they build these and I'LL join THEM, its more attractive to me than an A500 motherboard.
-
I didn't necessarily mean them specifically, just people working on those kind of high-level projects. :idea:
That being said, a1k is primarily a German-language site, as we all know. Would be nice if they were members of an English-speaking forum, as well. Y'know, for us dumb Americans who'd also like to buy their products and/or offer support, contribute, etc.
I wonder if it's a cultural thing? Are Germans just generally inclined to be more technologically innovative? I.e., Protein, red A500+ boards, GBA 1000, etc. #NoHitlerReferences :lol:
They're the master race when it comes to Amiga hardware. It can't be denied :)
Mind you, the Poles are pretty impressive too when it comes to Amigas.
-
They're the master race when it comes to Amiga hardware. It can't be denied :)
Mind you, the Poles are pretty impressive too when it comes to Amigas.
Mark "Bigfoot" Olsen is a Belgian native, although he now lives in South Africa. Frank Mariak (who I've mentioned here before) is German. And other members of the MorphOS development team live in Canada, Poland, and a multitude of other locations.
So our team (while there ARE some Germans) comes from all over the globe.
But you're right, :laugh1:, the Germans DO kind of rule Europe now.
-
Nice site, @jack-3d!
+1
@jack-3D!
after seeing your site, I got a mediator a4000 MKIII V3.3. I am going to try to get the Sonnet Crescendo 7200 PCI from an old Mac 7200 (I guess that was obvious) working in the a4000. I was opposite of most of you, I had the Crescendo but not the mediator.
-
Given the apparent lack of availability of the Sonnet cards, has anyone considered building a clone or a card of a similar design?
The TSI range of host bridges are still available as are G3 and G4 processors so it could be done if someone skilled in hardware design has the will to do it.
Has anyone tried compiling Linux to run on a Mediator/Sonnet 7200 setup as a proof of concept to show that OS4 and MorphOS could also run on the same setup?
I'm not sure if the MorphOS team would consider a port but I think it would get interest from Hyperion and their hardware partners.
-
Given the apparent lack of availability of the Sonnet cards, has anyone considered building a clone or a card of a similar design?
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=824992&postcount=60
:lol:
-
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=824992&postcount=60
:lol:
Thanks, I'd missed that.
-
Another testing of Sonnet Crescendo in Amiga: Crossfire2, Payback, Shogo, Hexen2, Quake3 and FPSE WarpOS games like Colin McRae and Tekken3
HERE (http://jack.untergrund.net/2018/02/03/amiga-goes-sonnet-crescendo-powerpc-part5-en/)