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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Announcements and Press Releases => Topic started by: Cyborg on January 05, 2016, 11:29:45 AM
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Brussels, January 5, 2016
Hyperion Entertainment wishes a happy New Year 2016 everybody!
The days between last Christmas and New Year were actually clouded by the sad fact that the source code of AmigaOS 3.1 and additional content dating back to 1994 was published and widely spread without permission of the rights-holder. Note that no code of AmigaOS 4.x was released or distributed.
Hyperion Entertainment holds an exclusive, world-wide, perpetual source-code license to the intellectual property of AmigaOS 3.1 and additional content as documented in the publicly available settlement agreement between Hyperion Entertainment and Amiga, Inc. which has taken the form of a stipulated judgement (https://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/washington/wawdce/2:2007cv00631/143245/148).
Based on this license AmigaOS 4.x development was started in 2001 by Hyperion Entertainment using the AmigaOS 3.1 code as a basis and as the direct successor of what Commodore left behind in 1994. AmigaOS 4.x is an actively developed product on sale and still incorporates a substantial amount of AmigaOS 3.1 code.
While this would be already more than enough of a reason to care about the unauthorised disclosure and distribution, it is also the very same settlement agreement which made all of this possible in the first place, which contractually requires Hyperion to enforce and protect any intellectual property rights associated with AmigaOS including the AmigaOS 3.1 source-code.
This entails that Hyperion Entertainment will examine all possible legal action against any unauthorised source of or use of this material it is aware of. All of this leads up to the reason why we "make such a fuss" about code which is more than 20 years old by now. While the original leak seems to stem from someone outside of the active community, it is even more sad to see quite some of the remaining active users happily participate in distributing this unauthorised copy, compromising years of development work and all possible future versions of AmigaOS and therefore biting the hand that feeds them against all common sense and in blatant violation of copyright.
Having said that, our most special thanks go to all loyal customers, user groups, dealers, partners and all others who showed and continue to show their support to us. You are the reason why AmigaOS still exists, why it remains under active development and why we care.
Thank you,
on behalf of Hyperion Entertainment, all associated developers, translators and testers.
Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Tervurenlaan 34
1040 Brussels
Belgium
info@hyperion-entertainment.com
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While I find it difficult maybe to remove the leaked source code from torrent and such, why is it still avalaible via github is beyond me. (I don't think it's on purpose so you can make easy money).
I hope that 2016 will be a new era where Hyperion share it's roadmap with a planning and deliver.
Steve Jobs use to say "Real Artists Ship".
http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?story=Real_Artists_Ship.txt
Kamelito
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Brussels, January 5, 2016
Hyperion Entertainment wishes a happy New Year 2016 everybody!
The days between last Christmas and New Year were actually clouded by the sad fact that the source code of AmigaOS 3.1 and additional content dating back to 1994 was published and widely spread without permission of the rights-holder. Note that no code of AmigaOS 4.x was released or distributed.
Hyperion Entertainment holds an exclusive, world-wide, perpetual source-code license to the intellectual property of AmigaOS 3.1 and additional content as documented in the publicly available settlement agreement between Hyperion Entertainment and Amiga, Inc. which has taken the form of a stipulated judgement (https://docs.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/washington/wawdce/2:2007cv00631/143245/148).
Based on this license AmigaOS 4.x development was started in 2001 by Hyperion Entertainment using the AmigaOS 3.1 code as a basis and as the direct successor of what Commodore left behind in 1994. AmigaOS 4.x is an actively developed product on sale and still incorporates a substantial amount of AmigaOS 3.1 code.
While this would be already more than enough of a reason to care about the unauthorised disclosure and distribution, it is also the very same settlement agreement which made all of this possible in the first place, which contractually requires Hyperion to enforce and protect any intellectual property rights associated with AmigaOS including the AmigaOS 3.1 source-code.
This entails that Hyperion Entertainment will examine all possible legal action against any unauthorised source of or use of this material it is aware of. All of this leads up to the reason why we "make such a fuss" about code which is more than 20 years old by now. While the original leak seems to stem from someone outside of the active community, it is even more sad to see quite some of the remaining active users happily participate in distributing this unauthorised copy, compromising years of development work and all possible future versions of AmigaOS and therefore biting the hand that feeds them against all common sense and in blatant violation of copyright.
Having said that, our most special thanks go to all loyal customers, user groups, dealers, partners and all others who showed and continue to show their support to us. You are the reason why AmigaOS still exists, why it remains under active development and why we care.
Thank you,
on behalf of Hyperion Entertainment, all associated developers, translators and testers.
Hyperion Entertainment CVBA
Tervurenlaan 34
1040 Brussels
Belgium
info@hyperion-entertainment.com (info@hyperion-entertainment.com)
Yawn
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While I find it difficult maybe to remove the leaked source code from torrent and such, why is it still avalaible via https://github.com/... is beyond me.
Kamelito
crazy...
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I just cant see how this leak affects AOS4.x in any way shape or form.
It can only benefit the 68k community, which is a completely different market.
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Hyperion possess a licence to use the code, Cloanto own the code.
This leak could actually benefit Cloanto and we the community because if developers start modifying and improving parts of the codebase and those changes are posted in the public domain; Cloanto can build binaries of those parts and distribute them.
Free development for a resource constrained company. It's a win-win.
The only loser I can see in this will be Hyperion as it will cost them money to comply with the licence they signed with Amiga Inc to "defend" against any illegal distribution of the source.
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I just cant see how this leak affects AOS4.x in any way shape or form.
It can only benefit the 68k community, which is a completely different market.
Ah... you're not seeing the bigger picture.
A n"open sourced" 68K AOS is a tremendously dangerous product for Hyperion's ambitions to attract more 68K users onto the so called "NG AmigaOS" platform, since really this is the only market on which OS4 has any hopes of attracting new customers.
But now, with new, faster FPGA accelerators 68K might get a new lease of life and together with access to the source code could be the final nail in the coffin of OS4.
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biting the hand that feeds them against all common sense and in blatant violation of copyright.
I think what Hyperion doesn't understand is that most people that are happy about the leak are not AmigaOS 4.x/PowerPC fans. They are 68K people and will likely NEVER move to AmigaOS 4.x/PowerPC, so they are not biting the hand that feeds them.
Perhaps if Hyperion catered a bit to the much larger 68K market their statement might make more sense.
The buzz around Natami showed that what most Amiga users want is a continuation of the original Amiga idea, what most users would have liked future Amigas to look like - which is not necessarily what Commodore would have done. I, and I think most 68K users, would have liked continually enhanced custom chipsets to keep the Amiga unique and better than the rest of the PC market. AA/AAA/SuperAGA/whatever.
Catering to the tiny AmigaOS 4.x/PowerPC market seems bizarre to me. Hyperion/A-EON would be much better off continuing development of AmigaOS 68K and moving forward with a FPGA project in my opinion.
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I just cant see how this leak affects AOS4.x in any way shape or form.
It can only benefit the 68k community, which is a completely different market.
It doesn't.
Hyperion has already admitted that all of the underlying OS4 code had to be re-written, from scratch, for PPC as the original binaries were too slow. Ergo, they've done exactly what they're threatening litigation against anyone else for.
It "affects" Hyperion in the fact that an old 3.x machine can be had for hundreds of dollars, while their machines are upwards of of 3 grand (no disrespect to Trevor, here, 'cos the guy is amazing!) If 3.x gets "modernized", it's less of a use for OS4, which has a costly entrance fee.
However, Hyperion is contractually obligated to sue anyone using the sources of 3.x, illegally, as it's part of their licensing agreement. That costs them money. Cloanto doesn't care either way - this doesn't affect them, at all and truthfully anything done with it, is to their benefit.
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Ah... you're not seeing the bigger picture.
A n"open sourced" 68K AOS is a tremendously dangerous product for Hyperion's ambitions to attract more 68K users onto the so called "NG AmigaOS" platform, since really this is the only market on which OS4 has any hopes of attracting new customers.
But now, with new, faster FPGA accelerators 68K might get a new lease of life and together with access to the source code could be the final nail in the coffin of OS4.
+1
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I understand the position of Hyperion. However I personally think open sourcing 3.1 offers them and probably even aeon & acute more potential then just sitting on os4.
Build a community around the os but still offer the end result of all new code in the form of (one of potential more) commercial AOS 3.x "distributions" on multiple architectures (68k/fpga, x86/64, arm,...).
Aeon can develop all their acquired classic applications even further. And together with A cube come up with some nice (and more affordable, hence better sold) hardware.
It would be a damn shame if the energy of Hyperion will go into chasing the leaked code and even further cause upset in the community. It would be beneficial for all, including Hyperion, to constructively over think a new open source oriented approach.
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I understand the position of Hyperion. However I personally think open sourcing 3.1 offers them and probably even aeon & acute more potential then just sitting on os4.
Build a community around the os but still offer the end result of all new code in the form of (one of potential more) commercial AOS 3.x "distributions" on multiple architectures (68k/fpga, x86/64, arm,...).
Aeon can develop all their acquired classic applications even further. And together with A cube come up with some nice (and more affordable, hence better sold) hardware.
The costs involved in properly opensourcing the code are far too much for Cloanto to afford, it's never gonna happen.
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The costs involved in properly opensourcing the code are far too much for Cloanto to afford, it's never gonna happen.
what they could do, however, would be participating in a clean room reimplementation, or rather clean room consultation, because the reimplementation is already there.
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what they could do, however, would be participating in a clean room reimplementation, or rather clean room consultation, because the reimplementation is already there.
True, but that would cost them too. The cost of potential community development work that might happen on the leaked code is probably far less.
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True, but that would cost them too. The cost of potential community development work that might happen on the leaked code is probably far less.
maybe. im not sure.. nevertheless they participated in founding the aros kickstart replacement phase 1:
http://www.power2people.org/projects/kickstart-1/
however in phase2 they seem to have reconsidered ;)
to be honest, i dont know how this impacts on them, or anybody else for that matter, but i doubt its significant.
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I think what Hyperion doesn't understand is that most people that are happy about the leak are not AmigaOS 4.x/PowerPC fans. They are 68K people and will likely NEVER move to AmigaOS 4.x/PowerPC, so they are not biting the hand that feeds them.
Perhaps if Hyperion catered a bit to the much larger 68K market their statement might make more sense.
The buzz around Natami showed that what most Amiga users want is a continuation of the original Amiga idea, what most users would have liked future Amigas to look like - which is not necessarily what Commodore would have done. I, and I think most 68K users, would have liked continually enhanced custom chipsets to keep the Amiga unique and better than the rest of the PC market. AA/AAA/SuperAGA/whatever.
Catering to the tiny AmigaOS 4.x/PowerPC market seems bizarre to me. Hyperion/A-EON would be much better off continuing development of AmigaOS 68K and moving forward with a FPGA project in my opinion.
I agree. I have made similar points in the past about the blowback from Hyperion/A-EON blocking 68k development so it is natural that the 68k masses are happy and the PPC elites worried about the leak. Arrogant leadership can expect no sympathy. Was it Queen Marie Antoinette who said of the peasants without bread, "Let them eat cake" before the French revolution and losing her head? The Amiga bourgeoisie would be wise to be more inclusive and open.
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I think Hyperion has it backwards anyway. They are not the hand that feeds their users, their users are the hands that feed them.
I have to say, I can't fathom how they are possibly still in business.
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+1
I think Hyperion has it backwards anyway. They are not the hand that feeds their users, their users are the hands that feed them.
I have to say, I can't fathom how they are possibly still in business.
Unpaid volunteers doing the bulk of the work I guess.
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+1
I think Hyperion has it backwards anyway. They are not the hand that feeds their users, their users are the hands that feed them.
I have to say, I can't fathom how they are possibly still in business.
Hyperion's business plans failed and they would have been bankrupt without a last minute bailout by A-EON. I believe A-EON has considerable influence if not complete control of Hyperion now. There needs to be change as going with a failed business plan is ludicrous. A-EON seems smarter and less arrogant than Hyperion so I hold some hope that the necessary changes will be implemented. I don't want the chaos of another messy bankruptcy/revolution.
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The buzz around Natami showed that what most Amiga users want is a continuation of the original Amiga idea, what most users would have liked future Amigas to look like - which is not necessarily what Commodore would have done. I, and I think most 68K users, would have liked continually enhanced custom chipsets to keep the Amiga unique and better than the rest of the PC market. AA/AAA/SuperAGA/whatever.
Catering to the tiny AmigaOS 4.x/PowerPC market seems bizarre to me.
This might be the ideal.
I got an A1000 in 1985 and have had various Amigas over the years. Now I have an A2000 '020 (once an '060), an A1000, and a SAM440ep-Flex 733MHz. I had an A1200 '060 not too long ago but sold it.
I brought the SAM in to my D.C. office so I can use it more frequently than I would at home in the basement, and it's fun, but it's pretty slow and I'd like one but I can't see shelling out for an X1000 or X5000.
I sold my A2000's '060 accelerator and Picasso II because all souped up, I found the platform so limiting as to not actually do much with the apps on that high end Amiga. So now I use an '020 and have a near-ideal WHDLoad machine. I have OS 4.1FE on the SAM and am loading it with more and more apps. But...it's slowish and I am using it only for nostalgia, but it's a newish OS and it's not really nostalgia fodder.
My ideal nostalgia / next gen Amiga does not exist, really.
Like Haynie has said in an interview, a huge opportunity was missed in not using commodity X86 hardware. It is a shame that NG Amiga is tied to PowerPC. Yes, it make sit unique, but it limits the user base incredibly.
I want to get more out of both the SAM / 4.1 and the 68K Amigas w/ 3.1. But I can't seem to, not legitimately, and that's sad.
bp
http://www.bytecellar.com/photo_pano.html
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Ofcourse Hyperion should defend their rights.
I don't get why so many have so big issues with Hyperion, that they are willing to help spread the illegally leaked source of 3.x.
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My ideal nostalgia / next gen Amiga does not exist, really.
I think the Tabor 1222 would be ideal for you, I will most likely get one.
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While I find it difficult maybe to remove the leaked source code from torrent and such, why is it still avalaible via github is beyond me.
Kamelito
its not on github anymore..but I googled for it and found a mirror within minutes. Dont care.. I have my NG system and am perfectly happy with it.
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Yup, I have my NG system also .. it's called Windows 7 :)
Tried the so called NG Amiga ... I'll stick with classic and that NG system I mentioned above :cool:
Let's not even start on the whole copyright crap .. :sealed:
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Hyperion possess a licence to use the code, Cloanto own the code.
This leak could actually benefit Cloanto and we the community because if developers start modifying and improving parts of the codebase and those changes are posted in the public domain; Cloanto can build binaries of those parts and distribute them.
Free development for a resource constrained company. It's a win-win.
The only loser I can see in this will be Hyperion as it will cost them money to comply with the licence they signed with Amiga Inc to "defend" against any illegal distribution of the source.
FYI, Cloanto sells both AmigaForever 2016 and AmigaOS 4.1 FE Classic.
Yup, I have my NG system also .. it's called Windows 7 :)
Tried the so called NG Amiga ... I'll stick with classic and that NG system I mentioned above :cool:
Let's not even start on the whole copyright crap .. :sealed:
I also have my NG system... it's called Windows 10 Pro with DirectX12 enabled. :)
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FYI, Cloanto sells both AmigaForever 2016 and AmigaOS 4.1 FE Classic.
The Pope's Catholic and water is wet.
Your point is?
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I just ordered my next gen machine, a raspberry pi with AREOS, I've looking forward to playing with it.
The code doesn't seem to be on the bay and github is gone....
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I thought the post was an average internet troll, but now I see it seems it was Hyperion trolling Amiga users. They are deluding themselves into thinking they add value to the 68k usersbase and that users somehow must be thankful about that.
Anyway, I see this as really great news:
Hyperion will once again (and hopefully now for good) face bankrupcy for persuing copyright infringement on AmigaOS 3.1 sourcecode. This will certainly be a nice coffin nail for them. A more than 20 years old operating system beating their ass.
It is absurdly ridiculuos, but fun nontheless.
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The code doesn't seem to be on the bay and github is gone....
You're not googling correctly. Lol. It's there. I'm tempted to download it and look thru it for various gems. I bet it has some....historical purposes, it would be cool to have a copy of it... actual workbench source. Very cool.
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You're not googling correctly. Lol. It's there. I'm tempted to download it and look thru it for various gems. I bet it has some....historical purposes, it would be cool to have a copy of it... actual workbench source. Very cool.
It has a lot of gems. Inside, there is a nice word document about the path Amiga development was heading when CBM went Bankrupt. It shows that software wise, there was nothing really new in the works. That AmigaOS v42 was at very initial stages and it was AmigaOS 4, that was going to bring RTG as standard to bridge the gap between 68k Amigas, Haynie´s AAA and PA-RISC. And that PA-RISC with a 3D engine was the future (PPC was never even mentioned). And then there is a lot of hardware based on the CD32 that was targetted at different markets.
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Real amigaOS should be owned by the users, free and open sourced at this days.
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It has a lot of gems. Inside, there is a nice word document about the path Amiga development was heading when CBM went Bankrupt. It shows that software wise, there was nothing really new in the works. That AmigaOS v42 was at very initial stages and it was AmigaOS 4, that was going to bring RTG as standard to bridge the gap between 68k Amigas, Haynie´s AAA and PA-RISC. And that PA-RISC with a 3D engine was the future (PPC was never even mentioned). And then there is a lot of hardware based on the CD32 that was targetted at different markets.
That alone makes it worth the download.
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The Pope's Catholic and water is wet.
Your point is?
You are implying a conflict between Cloanto and Hyperion when Cloanto is selling AmigaOS 4.1 FE as an bundle option for Amiga Forever 2016 Plus/Premium package.
I'm running AmigaOS 4.1 FE via AF2016's WinUAE out-of-the-box on my Wintel PCs.
AmigaOS 4.1 FE's $29 USD is cheap and I don't understand the constant hate for Hyperion.
(http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l327/encia/PC_hardware/PC2015_zpskff0ajsu.jpg)
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You evil you, running stolen code with WinUAE.
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You are implying a conflict between Cloanto and Hyperion when Cloanto is selling AmigaOS 4.1 FE as an bundle option for Amiga Forever 2016 Plus/Premium package.
Wow! Please tell me how on earth you came to that conclusion?
I'm running AmigaOS 4.1 FE via AF2016's WinUAE out-of-the-box on my Wintel PCs.
AmigaOS 4.1 FE's $29 USD is cheap and I don't understand the constant hate for Hyperion.
(http://i328.photobucket.com/albums/l327/encia/PC_hardware/PC2015_zpskff0ajsu.jpg)
I'm running it on Pegasos II, a PC, a Mac and previously ran it on a BPPC.
Your point is?
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And that PA-RISC with a 3D engine was the future (PPC was never even mentioned).
if thats true, it may finally silence everybody boldly claiming amiga was or was going to be ppc truly and officially.
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if thats true, it may finally silence everybody boldly claiming amiga was or was going to be ppc truly and officially.
Yes and No
As far as I know Commodore never planned PPC but the successor (Amiga Technologies / Escom)
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I hope that projects like aros or vamos would benefit from this.
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if thats true, it may finally silence everybody boldly claiming amiga was or was going to be ppc truly and officially.
Do we really care what Commodore intended to do as their slow development and limited investment killed the system?
The community moved forward with PPCs.
Escom would have gone in that direction.
Arguing about a dead HP ISA is pointless.
If you don't like PPCs you're free to continue to use legacy equipment or mainstream PCs.
I have Win7 and Win 10 systems, but they don't substitute for my NG hardware.
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Do we really care what Commodore intended to do as their slow development and limited investment killed the system?
commodore let it fade away, but third parties insistance on ppc was the final blow that actually killed away what was was left of it.;)
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I was thinking that only AMIGA Inc. (Bill McEwen) is the owner of the AMIGA OS 3.x/4.x for the world!
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I think what Hyperion doesn't understand is that most people that are happy about the leak are not AmigaOS 4.x/PowerPC fans. They are 68K people and will likely NEVER move to AmigaOS 4.x/PowerPC, so they are not biting the hand that feeds them.
Perhaps if Hyperion catered a bit to the much larger 68K market their statement might make more sense.
The buzz around Natami showed that what most Amiga users want is a continuation of the original Amiga idea, what most users would have liked future Amigas to look like - which is not necessarily what Commodore would have done. I, and I think most 68K users, would have liked continually enhanced custom chipsets to keep the Amiga unique and better than the rest of the PC market. AA/AAA/SuperAGA/whatever.
Catering to the tiny AmigaOS 4.x/PowerPC market seems bizarre to me. Hyperion/A-EON would be much better off continuing development of AmigaOS 68K and moving forward with a FPGA project in my opinion.
i wish somebody would do a upgrade of the amiga 68k graphics sound etc...always wanted it ...really new it will never happen ..always hoped though ..couldnt agree more with your comments
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I will express my opinion: since Hyperion has the rights to come here and express theirs, I think I have the same right.
I hope this leakage leads to advancements in AROS and in general open source Amiga OS reimplementations, which ARE the future of the platform like it or not.
Amiga OS 4 and it's small userbase won't hold for long: in the long term, open source alternative OSes with collaborative development on cheap hardware platforms are the future: look at what Linux is for the old Unix world, and what Open RISC OS is for the RISC OS world.
Open or die. That's how things work for alternative OSes.
Since these short-sighted people at Hyperion are failing to see this, I hope and truly wish that Hyperion disapears from the face of earth so they finally stop actiong like the patent trolls they are.
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It has a lot of gems. Inside, there is a nice word document about the path Amiga development was heading when CBM went Bankrupt. It shows that software wise, there was nothing really new in the works. That AmigaOS v42 was at very initial stages and it was AmigaOS 4, that was going to bring RTG as standard to bridge the gap between 68k Amigas, Haynie´s AAA and PA-RISC. And that PA-RISC with a 3D engine was the future (PPC was never even mentioned). And then there is a lot of hardware based on the CD32 that was targetted at different markets.
Everything you mentioned was well known for years, it's nice to have an actual document from the time though.
Commodore were pretty much dead when it was written, it took a little while longer for them to bleed out. The cd32 mpeg addon, the cd1200 and the cd33 (cd32 expansion module) is the only thing in that document that I ever saw. AAA was pretty much canned, I'd like to know how this ties in with the first chips coming back and the nyx prototype. AAA was always going to be a bad idea, AA earlier would have hands down been a better use of money. I will never know what they were thinking when they started.
Hombre is probably the least documented system, it seems to be written in some form of HDL and I only ever heard they had software simulations. The people involved aren't like the usual maniacal commodore engineers. The PlayStation was developed in a similar way, using a MIPS compatible soft core rather than PARISC.
I suspect if commodore had limped along for another year we would have seen the integrated 68020+AGA, but not much else & Sony would have eaten their lunch in the end regardless of what commodore did. They didn't even know Sony were coming, they were only thinking of 3do/Atari/Nintendo/Sega.
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I am sorry to burst your bubble, but the document contains details, what was out there was general information. It is a good read as there are lots of conclusions that can be driven by interpreting it, and it sheds some light on some previously unheard hardware.
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They didn't even know Sony were coming, they were only thinking of 3do/Atari/Nintendo/Sega.
Well, to be fair *nobody* saw Sony coming. If Sony hadn't played their hand as brilliantly as they did, Sega might still be making hardware today.
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Only out of idle curiosity, is this historic documentation you guys are talking about freely distributable? Or is it also protected in the same manner as the source code?
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@Oldsmobile_Mike
i'm trying to find out. stay tuned. ;)
-- eliyahu
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The document I mentioned can be located inside the archive in this area:
os-source/other/documents/futprod.doc
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I am sorry to burst your bubble, but the document contains details, what was out there was general information.
"Everything you mentioned was well known for years"
I hate to burst your bubble, but I stand what I said. The document contains a few things that hadn't been mentioned before, but you failed to mention them. There are a few interesting hardware fantasies in there, but we know that commodore built lots of hardware that they didn't ship.
John DiLullo who was credited as a contributor in the document doesn't seem to keen on the Amiga a few months later.
http://www.amigareport.com/ar205/p1-11.html
Well, to be fair *nobody* saw Sony coming. If Sony hadn't played their hand as brilliantly as they did, Sega might still be making hardware today.
Commodore needed a 3d console out in 1993 to put Sony off, if commodore UK controlled R&D then things would have been different. Sega knew Sony were coming as after the Nintendo partnership fell through they tried to do a deal with Sega, they also turned down SGI's Ultra 64 as well. Sega were arrogant, like commodore....
OT: I want to know if the UHRES in ECS/AGA that was removed in AAA, is what Jay Miner was going on about when talked about VRAM chips that had already been designed
http://www.thule.no/haynie/research/nyx/docs/AAA.pdf
"The ECS "Ultra hires" registers have been eliminated, as they were never supported in actual practice"
http://www.thule.no/haynie/chips/aa/regbits.pdf
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While Hyperion might not like the release, and I tend to err on the side of the copy-write holder... in this case, it will be cool to see what patches and enhancements can be done that will run on existing hardware, and whats possible on faster hardware like FPGA's etc.
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John DiLullo who was credited as a contributor in the document doesn't seem to keen on the Amiga a few months later.
http://www.amigareport.com/ar205/p1-11.html
Wow, could only get through the first few paragraphs of that. By the time I got to "the fanatical Amiga owners are an embarrassment to Commodore" I was hoping this guy got hit by a bus. :(
I remember reading AmigaReport back in the day. But I don't remember that article. Probably just as well, lol. ;)
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Commodore needed a 3d console out in 1993 to put Sony off
Commodore released the CD32 in September 1993 to compete with the Sega CD and the 3DO (which it did - for its short lifespan it was the top-selling CD platform in the EU). It was discontinued in April 1994 when Commodore went bankrupt.
The Saturn didn't hit Japan until November 1994 (mid-1995 in the US/EU) and the PlayStation didn't arrive in the US/EU until September 1995.
Neither the Saturn nor especially the PlayStation were implicit in the downfall of the Amiga/CD32 - that was all down to Commodore. As it was, they couldn't manufacture enough CD32s to meet demand because of their debt problems (they were having to pay for everything in cash).
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Sega didn't see 3D coming, they correct it with the Dreamcast but they choose PowerVR over 3DFX that EA wanted, so no EA games...
Kamelito
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Commodore released the CD32 in September 1993 to compete with the Sega CD and the 3DO (which it did - for its short lifespan it was the top-selling CD platform in the EU). It was discontinued in April 1994 when Commodore went bankrupt.
The Saturn didn't hit Japan until November 1994 (mid-1995 in the US/EU) and the PlayStation didn't arrive in the US/EU until September 1995.
Neither the Saturn nor especially the PlayStation were implicit in the downfall of the Amiga/CD32 - that was all down to Commodore. As it was, they couldn't manufacture enough CD32s to meet demand because of their debt problems (they were having to pay for everything in cash).
I didn't say that the PlayStation was directly responsible for commodores demise. There were a lot of CD32's manufactured, you couldn't move for them in the UK before and after the bankruptcy. They couldn't be imported into the US because of the xor patent. Commodore's bankruptcy was more to do with the banks believing that they were worth more now than if they lent them more money to continue trading while the management spent money on planes/hotels/etc
The date that Saturn/PlayStation arrived in the EU/US is irrelevant. European developers had started getting development kits before commodore went under. People knew they were coming.
Sega didn't see 3D coming, they correct it with the Dreamcast but they choose PowerVR over 3DFX that EA wanted, so no EA games...
Kamelito
Yeah it was only Nintendo that realised how important 3D was going to be for games. They teamed up with Argonaut before the SNES launched to create the SuperFX. Sony will have known about it from when they were working with Nintendo on the "Play Station". Sony's technical experience with 3D was from SystemG for video editing.
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I am sorry to burst your bubble, but the document contains details, what was out there was general information. It is a good read as there are lots of conclusions that can be driven by interpreting it, and it sheds some light on some previously unheard hardware.
sounds like its worth downloading.
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commodore let it fade away, but third parties insistance on ppc was the final blow that actually killed away what was was left of it.;)
Not...quite...yet, but Hyperion might mange it eventually.
And I am ambivalent to specific ISAs.
68K is dead, we moved to PPCs, we can moved again.
Its you flat earthers that were the actual final blow.
So go play your old 2D games and blow.
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I think the Tabor 1222 would be ideal for you, I will most likely get one.
For Blake? Doubtful.
Unfortunately even Haynie has this one figured out by now, if some of us haven't.
Tabor introduces a crippled CPU when better processors are available.
At this point moving to X64 seems the best course.
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@thread
since there was such an interest in the commodore planning document we have been discussing, i contacted hyperion entertainment directly via email and requested permission to publish this document for those interested and am pleased to report back that permission has been granted. you can have a read-through here:
http://intuitionbase.com/misc/FutureProductOptions_dist.pdf (http://intuitionbase.com/misc/FutureProductOptions_dist.pdf)
a big thank you to the hyperion directors for taking the time to review the document and allow its publication for historical purposes. :)
-- eliyahu
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@thread
since there was such an interest in the commodore planning document we have been discussing, i contacted hyperion entertainment directly via email and requested permission to publish this document for those interested and am pleased to report back that permission has been granted. you can have a read-through here:
http://intuitionbase.com/misc/FutureProductOptions_dist.pdf (http://intuitionbase.com/misc/FutureProductOptions_dist.pdf)
a big thank you to the hyperion directors for taking the time to review the document and allow its publication for historical purposes. :)
-- eliyahu
Neat.
A quick snapshot from the edge of doom.
For once I am in Hyperion's debt.
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@thread
since there was such an interest in the commodore planning document we have been discussing, i contacted hyperion entertainment directly via email and requested permission to publish this document for those interested and am pleased to report back that permission has been granted. you can have a read-through here:
http://intuitionbase.com/misc/FutureProductOptions_dist.pdf (http://intuitionbase.com/misc/FutureProductOptions_dist.pdf)
a big thank you to the hyperion directors for taking the time to review the document and allow its publication for historical purposes. :)
-- eliyahu
I would prefer an official statement about that being allowed. Given the history of certain Hyperion members for making claims about leaks/stolen items. :)
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@Terminills
i can't post private emails without permission, but the document copy provided by hyperion includes the following:
This material is distributed with the explicit permission of Hyperion Entertainment CVBA which retains copyright to this material. You may distribute this material free of charge only.
The reference to "Amiga OS Release 4.0" in this material is a reference to the v42 version of AmigaOS planned by Commodore. It is not related to the v50 version of AmigaOS developed by Hyperion Entertainment CVBA which is the existing AmigaOS 4.0 for PowerPC.
i wouldn't have posted this without express permission from hyperion, i assure you. anyway -- enjoy the read. it's a nice insight into where CBM thought the market was heading right before the rug was pulled out from underneath it.
-- eliyahu
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http://intuitionbase.com/misc/FutureProductOptions_dist.pdf (http://intuitionbase.com/misc/FutureProductOptions_dist.pdf)
a big thank you to the hyperion directors for taking the time to review the document and allow its publication for historical purposes. :)
Thank you Hyperion!
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So even if Commodore survived, Amiga would evolve into a gaming console and/or low end computers. Workbench might not even be available for these devices....
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@Terminills
i can't post private emails without permission, but the document copy provided by hyperion includes the following:
i wouldn't have posted this without express permission from hyperion, i assure you. anyway -- enjoy the read. it's a nice insight into where CBM thought the market was heading right before the rug was pulled out from underneath it.
-- eliyahu
I've had long conversations with Dr Hepler about his time at CBM I'll personally stick with that. :)
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Thank you to eliyahu for making it happen and also to Hyperion for giving their blessing. Time to take a lunch break and read up on this.
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http://intuitionbase.com/misc/FutureProductOptions_dist.pdf (http://intuitionbase.com/misc/FutureProductOptions_dist.pdf)
Were they smoking something really good, or did they believe the ghost of Jack was walking the halls at C=? By that time I would have hoped they had realized you can't just do like in old times and scrap what you had and bung out something new and incompatible. Why would a loyal Amiga owner want a totally incompatible PA-RISC thing? Starting from scratch with 0 installed userbase is next to nuts.
That washing-off-hands at AAA also makes me scratch my head.
But now I see where the CIX leak about "CR" systems came from. A $100 cut would have been a gamechanger...
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What amazed me was the constant reference to the CD32 as Commodore's most strategically important product.
And the idea of a modular CD32 (main cartridge based unit with CD addon) just shows they had no idea what they were doing at that point in time...
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Why would a loyal Amiga owner want a totally incompatible PA-RISC thing? Starting from scratch with 0 installed userbase is next to nuts.
That washing-off-hands at AAA also makes me scratch my head.
Even though I was young when I bought my A500, moved to the A3k eventually (loaded, with Cybergraphics card, PP 040), I noticed most of all games were basically "Amiga 500" games and never took advantage of us who had loaded systems. It was like having a ferrari but its top speed was 5mph.
Taking the leap from a 64c to an Amiga, nothing was compatible with the "old 64", but alot of us took the jump anyway. If they went PA-RISC and had software, the masses would have followed, I know I would have.
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This material is distributed with the explicit permission of Hyperion Entertainment CVBA which retains copyright to this material. You may distribute this material free of charge only.
The reference to "Amiga OS Release 4.0" in this material is a reference to the v42 version of AmigaOS planned by Commodore. It is not related to the v50 version of AmigaOS developed by Hyperion Entertainment CVBA which is the existing AmigaOS 4.0 for PowerPC.
May I ask how Hyperion can claim copyright to something they may or may not even have a license to?
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What amazed me was the constant reference to the CD32 as Commodore's most strategically important product.
And the idea of a modular CD32 (main cartridge based unit with CD addon) just shows they had no idea what they were doing at that point in time...
You have to remember, CD32(and A1200, basically same systems) were selling like crazy on most important Amiga markets in Europe at the time - and with a further 100$ price cut would continue to sell even with next gen consoles coming.
PA-RISC, especially 2.0 version(64 bit, MAX-2 SIMD extensions, 32 bit options also had earlier MAX-1 SIMD in 7100LC and 7300LC CPUs ) was a helleuva CPU, compared even with fastest PPC, Pentium Pro, Alpha and MIPS CPUs - too bad it was not meant to be.
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I wonder how far along they got with the PA-RISC stuff? Like version 1.0 of the OS or some schematics on the board etc...
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a big thank you to the hyperion directors for taking the time to review the document
I'm confused - AFAIK, hyperion has a license to the 3.1 sourcecode - not to internal strategy papers made by commodore employees?
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oh, thanks, good thing i have not even started to read this illegal material. ihas everybody else been caught in act?
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I wonder how far along they got with the PA-RISC stuff? Like version 1.0 of the OS or some schematics on the board etc...
AFAIK, Ed Helper was working on a custom version of PA-RISC 7150 for Hombre.
According to Haynie, no code was ever written, they considered licensing OpenGL for successor of CD32 and even considered Windows NT.
Haynie worked on Acutiator architecture which would be basis for future desktop Amigas and was flexible for both 680x0 and PA-RISC chips. No more Zorro, it would have PCI
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By the time I got to "the fanatical Amiga owners are an embarrassment to Commodore" I was hoping this guy got hit by a bus. :(
Something a typical non-fanatic non-embarrassment would say when someone insults their favorite brand?
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If they went PA-RISC and had software, the masses would have followed, I know I would have.
IBM Mainframe with MVS/zOS
PC with DOS/Windows
The masses voted with their wallets; software is too valuable to trash your system.
No new system (excluding game consoles and phones) has been successfully introduced in competition with the existing the past 25(30?) years. Even the Mac has kept compatibility in its many incarnations.
The trouble with introducing a new system is that you reset everything. Your old customers will not only be evaluating your new system, they will be comparing it to your competitors without giving you any inherent benefit. As happens in the game console market where they seem to be syncing releases with each other - customers have even less reason to be loyal or wait out in such a situation.
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AFAIK, Ed Helper was working on a custom version of PA-RISC 7150 for Hombre.
According to Haynie, no code was ever written, they considered licensing OpenGL for successor of CD32 and even considered Windows NT.
Haynie worked on Acutiator architecture which would be basis for future desktop Amigas and was flexible for both 680x0 and PA-RISC chips. No more Zorro, it would have PCI
I read the pdf and then googled some of the stuff they wanted to base the OS on (functionality wise/looks etc) and then the VAR type interface and they seemed like good ideas.
It would be cool to read more stuff like this..more internal docs etc.
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Were they smoking something really good, or did they believe the ghost of Jack was walking the halls at C=? By that time I would have hoped they had realized you can't just do like in old times and scrap what you had and bung out something new and incompatible. Why would a loyal Amiga owner want a totally incompatible PA-RISC thing? Starting from scratch with 0 installed userbase is next to nuts.
That washing-off-hands at AAA also makes me scratch my head.
It would have had to be a huge jump to attract the user base, much like it was going from the C64 to Amiga.
I find it odd that AAA had no backwards compatibility with AGA, but I knew that already.
What amazed me was the constant reference to the CD32 as Commodore's most strategically important product.
And the idea of a modular CD32 (main cartridge based unit with CD addon) just shows they had no idea what they were doing at that point in time...
The sad part is they were right. By that time they had lost a large chunk of their user base (me included) and were running on fumes. They were considerably behind the market in the features that made the Amiga what it was (graphics and sound). As much as I would have liked to see them push forward with an Amiga 5000 / AAA system, the reality is they didn't have it in them. Their best hope of survival would be success with the CD32.
I'm confused - AFAIK, hyperion has a license to the 3.1 sourcecode - not to internal strategy papers made by commodore employees?
LOL, +1!
The trouble with introducing a new system is that you reset everything. Your old customers will not only be evaluating your new system, they will be comparing it to your competitors without giving you any inherent benefit. As happens in the game console market where they seem to be syncing releases with each other - customers have even less reason to be loyal or wait out in such a situation.
I think you're wrong. There is brand loyalty. Some may deviate, but happy Amiga users would look long and hard at C='s next product and if it's competitive most would favor the familiar brand.
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I agree... They've been flogging a dead horse/picking over a long-dead carcass for far too long.
They keep up a facade of being a powerful international corporation, with their finger on the pulse of modern technology and their ultimate goal of bring a "superior" OS to the masses... :-)
I'd like to see them follow through with their rhetoric and actually take someone to court over this. But of course, like their dreams for the future, it'll never happen...
Just my $0.02... Happy New Year everyone....
Mike.
I thought the post was an average internet troll, but now I see it seems it was Hyperion trolling Amiga users. They are deluding themselves into thinking they add value to the 68k usersbase and that users somehow must be thankful about that.
Anyway, I see this as really great news:
Hyperion will once again (and hopefully now for good) face bankrupcy for persuing copyright infringement on AmigaOS 3.1 sourcecode. This will certainly be a nice coffin nail for them. A more than 20 years old operating system beating their ass.
It is absurdly ridiculuos, but fun nontheless.
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What amazed me was the constant reference to the CD32 as Commodore's most strategically important product.
And the idea of a modular CD32 (main cartridge based unit with CD addon) just shows they had no idea what they were doing at that point in time...
The CD32 was a big seller here in europe, but because of the legal dispute about the CD32 in the USA, C= couldn't sell it there. They feared a too big fine.
Markus
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Download link is not working.. here is another:
http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=09338328132270502003
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Download link is not working..
There might be a very official reason it's not working. As terminilis and I tried to point out earlier, Hyperion has a "object and source code license for Amiga OS 3.1" and nothing else. It's hard to see how they could give eliyahu a license to distribute this document.
The real copyright owner might not want to have his property floating around the net with a big red "this belongs to hyperion, thanks for permission to distribute it" disclaimer on top of every page.
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@cgutjahr
i took it down while the copyright notice is clarified. i didn't get a take-down request or anything, but until the exact text is settled, i didn't feel right about keeping the document up. both cloanto and hyperion have been terrific and very friendly; i wish i could say the same about some of their detractors.
as soon as i repost, i'll let folks know. :)
-- eliyahu
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i didn't feel right about keeping the document up=
uhh..oops :-)
well..its been uploaded. LOL
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There might be a very official reason it's not working. As terminilis and I tried to point out earlier, Hyperion has a "object and source code license for Amiga OS 3.1" and nothing else. It's hard to see how they could give eliyahu a license to distribute this document.
The real copyright owner might not want to have his property floating around the net with a big red "this belongs to hyperion, thanks for permission to distribute it" disclaimer on top of every page.
yea....I guess you dont know what I'm talking about. The "future options" pdf is what I'm talking about. As far as 3.1 source..Its still available via a google search.
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yea....I guess you dont know what I'm talking about. The "future options" pdf is what I'm talking about.
Yes, and it's probably (c) Cloanto, not Hyperion. Which is why Cloanto might not appreciate that it's being distributed it with a big "(c) Hyperion" disclaimer on top of every page.
Which is why Eliyahu took it down again until the issue is cleared up.
I'd draw you a picture, but I'm really not much of an artist...
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I'd draw you a picture, but I'm really not much of an artist...
...and I wouldn't even bother looking at it.
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Sega didn't see 3D coming, they correct it with the Dreamcast but they choose PowerVR over 3DFX that EA wanted, so no EA games...
Kamelito
PowerVR's getting some pretty admirable use today.
bp
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You have to remember, CD32(and A1200, basically same systems) were selling like crazy on most important Amiga markets in Europe at the time - and with a further 100$ price cut would continue to sell even with next gen consoles coming.
PA-RISC, especially 2.0 version(64 bit, MAX-2 SIMD extensions, 32 bit options also had earlier MAX-1 SIMD in 7100LC and 7300LC CPUs ) was a helleuva CPU, compared even with fastest PPC, Pentium Pro, Alpha and MIPS CPUs - too bad it was not meant to be.
Was the PA-RISC to be the core CPU or to be a slave handling graphics. I read it as the latter, years ago -- but I may be mistaken.
I do know the 7100LC (http://www.openpa.net/pa-risc_processor_pa-7100lc.html) in my HP-9000 712/100 lets me run NeXTSTEP with performance that runs rings around my NeXTstation Turbo Color (33MHz '040). Some media on that, if quick and dirty:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MVnKRT3jw0&feature=youtu.be
HP: https://vine.co/v/iaaY7H5Bij3
NeXTstation: https://vine.co/v/iaaVK7n0bbD
bp
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Was the PA-RISC to be the core CPU or to be a slave handling graphics. I read it as the latter, years ago -- but I may be mistaken.
It was the core CPU of the console. They mentioned putting the console chipset on a card, where the PA-RISC would just be a coprocessor for graphics. I'm not convinced it would have happened if commodore had survived, unless they could have beaten other graphics card manufactures on performance and price. Then maybe we'd have seen Hombre graphics cards for PC's.
It's difficult to know as Hombre was mostly just a wish list for what they were aiming for. It was likely two to three years away from completion and not much had been decided.
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Was the PA-RISC to be the core CPU or to be a slave handling graphics. I read it as the latter, years ago -- but I may be mistaken.
I do know the 7100LC (http://www.openpa.net/pa-risc_processor_pa-7100lc.html) in my HP-9000 712/100 lets me run NeXTSTEP with performance that runs rings around my NeXTstation Turbo Color (33MHz '040). Some media on that, if quick and dirty:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MVnKRT3jw0&feature=youtu.be
HP: https://vine.co/v/iaaY7H5Bij3
NeXTstation: https://vine.co/v/iaaVK7n0bbD
bp
Faster and smoother on the HP, do you know what is the fastest computer able to run NextStep? Too bad OSX do not have an NextStep skin.
Kamelito
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It was the core CPU of the console. They mentioned putting the console chipset on a card, where the PA-RISC would just be a coprocessor for graphics.
Huh?
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Faster and smoother on the HP, do you know what is the fastest computer able to run NextStep? Too bad OSX do not have an NextStep skin.
Kamelito
Definitely the fastest way to run NEXTSTEP is on Intel. You can run it on a VM in modern systems and it flies. I do this, but I prefer running on legacy hardware as it has more personality.
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I've been out of the scene for a while. What fun. There are bits of this that would be lovely to have open for hardware and system hackers, e.g. the bootstrap code. The Kickstart and Workbench bits are cool, but someone already maintains the code. I'd like to see other operating systems running on m68k hardware without riding on Kickstart.
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Faster and smoother on the HP, do you know what is the fastest computer able to run NextStep? Too bad OSX do not have an NextStep skin.
Kamelito
Take your fastest machine and give it a try. :)
https://sites.google.com/site/benvirtualbox/home/nextstep
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Definitely the fastest way to run NEXTSTEP is on Intel. You can run it on a VM in modern systems and it flies. I do this, but I prefer running on legacy hardware as it has more personality.
Funny to find a NEXTSTEP discussion in this thread ;)
I'm curious, I still have a NeXTstation (not the turbo version) in storage, and at least ten years ago I had it patched up and in good working condition.
The NeXTSTEP 3.3 CD-ROM (back from the days when there was still the lower case 'e' in the name) and boot/driver disks are still in good condition, too.
How would you make that run in a virtual machine on Intel today (say, VMware)?
As the years went by, I tried it with every virtualization solution that came around, but I stopped doing so a few years back. The kernel always panicked during initialization.
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Definitely the fastest way to run NEXTSTEP is on Intel. You can run it on a VM in modern systems and it flies. I do this, but I prefer running on legacy hardware as it has more personality.
wow..never knew I could run Nextstep on a VM. Just downloaded 3.3 and will try it out.
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Huh?
Maybe a copy and paste from Wikipedia will make more sense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Hombre_chipset
Hombre is a RISC chipset for the Amiga designed by Commodore, intended as the basis of its next generation game machine called CD64.
Commodore also planned to build a 3D accelerator PCI card based on Hombre. Hombre was canceled along with the bankruptcy of Commodore International.
"In 1993, Commodore International ceased the development of the AAA chipset and began to design a new 64-bit 3D graphics chipset based on Hewlett-Packard's PA-RISC architecture to serve as the new basis of the Amiga personal computer series. It was codenamed Hombre (pronounced "ómbre" which means man in Spanish) and was developed in conjunction with over an estimated eighteen-month period.
Hombre is based around two chips: a System Controller chip and a Display Controller chip."
"The System Controller chip was designed by Dr. Ed Hepler, well known as the designer of the AAA Andrea chip. The chip is similar in principle to the chip bus controller found in Agnus, Alice, and Andrea of the Amiga chipsets. The chip features the following:
A 100+ MHz PA-7150 SIMD microprocessor
An advanced DMA engine and blitter with 3D texture mapping and gouraud shading
16-bit resolution sound processor with eight voices"
"The Display Controller Chip was designed by Tim McDonald, also known as the designer of the AAA Monica chip. It is similar in principle to the Denise, Lisa, and Monica chips found on original Amigas. In addition, the chipset also supported future official or third party upgrades through extension for an external PA-RISC processor.
These chips and some other circuitry would be part of a PCI card, through the ReTargetable Graphics system."
The PA-7150 would therefore be the main cpu in the "CD64", or mostly used for driving the graphics hardware when used on a PCI card.
My guess is that even the proposed 3d workstation would have been sold with only the PA-7150 for a cpu, although it seems likely that you could add another cpu as well.
IMO If commodore had survived then it's more likely a system with 68060, AGA and tseng labs graphics card (IIRC) and using PCI as well as/instead of zorro would have been what they actually released as Dave Haynie was tinkering with that and commodore historically only ship things based off skunk work projects (and if other things do ship then they stink).
It's a pity the February 1991 proposal to switch AA to 1 micron CMOS and implement 16/32 bit chunky modes with 4x memory bandwidth and 2x floppy bandwidth, was passed on. Probably because it would have made AAA irrelevant. The proposal appears to have been recycled as AA+ in 1992. http://www.ebay.it/itm/Commodore-Futures-Memo-HaynieMovingSale-055-/131445199320
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Apparently it's called "amiga os source code 3.1.tar.bz2"