Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: slaapliedje on September 22, 2015, 02:35:46 AM
-
Turned on my Amiga 4000D today to try to get my new mouse to work (the new one from Amigakit that is optical) and this horrible electronic smell.
The Indivision AGA splash screen shows on the monitor, but the kickstart that I'm usually welcomed with (I have the noIDE and the drive generally takes a bit to boot up) doesn't show. So at least there's that.
I realize that I'm most likely going to have to go through each component and remove it to see if I can get at least a kickstart boot, but anyone have any hints on what it could be based on that information?
slaapliedje
-
A4000D, I'd immediately check the power connector where it plugs into the motherboard. Common problem.
Edit - that probably would also stop the Indivision screen, also, though. Unless it's powered in some funky way. Hummm...
-
Just a black screen?
Try it without the Indivision.
Get the motherboard out and get your nose right down into it. Scan methodically from one side to another, top to bottom.
Has the motherboard been re-caped?
Get it down to basics; no Mediator, 2MB chip RAM only.
Is it still running on the original Commodore PSU?
-
Wow, never seen this happen in the 32 years I've used computers.
-
Just a black screen?
Try it without the Indivision.
Get the motherboard out and get your nose right down into it. Scan methodically from one side to another, top to bottom.
Has the motherboard been re-caped?
Get it down to basics; no Mediator, 2MB chip RAM only.
Is it still running on the original Commodore PSU?
Started the process off, unplugged everything, pulled out the FastATA board, sniffed, was fine. Sniffed in on the right hand side of the mediator, and that's where it smelled the strongest, then pulled out the memory board from the Cyberstorm and... not sure if you can see it in that picture very well, but that blackened chip is bubbled up and split in the middle.
Going to reconfigure the Cyberstorm back to 64MB of memory and try booting it again.
To answer your questions, yes it was recapped,. and it is using the original PSU. Gonna sniff it some more after removing the memory stick.
slaapliedje
-
Wow, never seen this happen in the 32 years I've used computers.
I have. Only once. On an mega-expanded Amiga 1200.
-
To all operators of an A4000 Desktop configuration.
The original Commodore integrated 150W PSU is built using late '80s/early '90s PSU knowledge and has also been procured with latter-day Commodore frugality.
You might think that the A4000 engineers took this into account when constructing the motherboard/daughterboard/expansions and made them that little-bit more resilient. That might be the case. But none of them envisioned that the A4000D with the original PSU would be running anything in 2015.
I can't emphasise the importance of a good power supply enough. To quote that guy from Apollo 13 "Power is everything".
I recommend you replace the old inefficient (by design and by age) PSU with a more modern SFX of TFX form factor PSU. Both use modern PSU designs that operated at higher levels of current supply efficiency and run much cooler and quieter. Both can be integrated into an A4000D case and connect to the the motherboard with the low cost Amiga 4000 ATX PSU adapter + switch (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=615).
Especially if you are running high end CPU cards and a Mediator with PCI cards, but also if you are just running a pure vanilla, unadulterated, classic Amiga A4000/0x0 with only classic Zorro expansion boards. Protect your investment in nostalgic computing glory.
-
To all operators of an A4000 Desktop configuration.
The original Commodore integrated 150W PSU is built using late '80s/early '90s PSU knowledge and has also been procured with latter-day Commodore frugality.
You might think that the A4000 engineers took this into account when constructing the motherboard/daughterboard/expansions and made them that little-bit more resilient. That might be the case. But none of them envisioned that the A4000D with the original PSU would be running anything in 2015.
I can't emphasise the importance of a good power supply enough. To quote that guy from Apollo 13 "Power is everything".
I recommend you replace the old inefficient (by design and by age) PSU with a more modern SFX of TFX form factor PSU. Both use modern PSU designs that operated at higher levels of current supply efficiency and run much cooler and quieter. Both can be integrated into an A4000D case and connect to the the motherboard with the low cost Amiga 4000 ATX PSU adapter + switch (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=615).
Especially if you are running high end CPU cards and a Mediator with PCI cards, but also if you are just running a pure vanilla, unadulterated, classic Amiga A4000/0x0 with only classic Zorro expansion boards. Protect your investment in nostalgic computing glory.
Nonsense, there is nothing wrong with the design or function of the original 4000 psu's.they are standard switching supply design used in most pc psu's. Only improvement in atx and such is if you go 80+ certified for a better powerfactor.-and those are counterfeited also in many cheaper ones..Although i prefer the skynet (easier to recap)design,the liteon ones are also ok,as a matter of fact there is quite a bit of filtering on the high voltage side of the liteon as well as mov's for surge protection. Most of these psu's will run many more years if you recap them.
I have seen way more junk atx,miniatx,with horrid designs and missing any input protections.
In almost all cases the 150w a4000 psu will run decked out mediator setups with no problem if recapped. Its a true 150watts,notice the 5v rail which is what the amiga really loads down is weak on many atx,as a matter of fact most modern psu's concentrate on 12v and 3.3v now. i cant count the atx psu's i've seen with 5v poorly regulated and showing as low as 4.85v.
-
For the record, the PSU is fine. The memory module I posted was on the Cyberstorm MK1, I was looking the other day into finding a PPC board... I think it knew... After pulling it out and re-configuring the memory on the board to 64mb, it did the same thing. But after pulling the whole board out and putting in the A3640, it booted into the kickstart config screen.
Weird thing is, invidision posts image, then black screen, but the reset (control+A+A) still works, as does the capslock. I've tried it without the memory module and with. Still no such luck.
slaapliedje
-
Wait, it burned up a second module after the first one? Guess you have a toasted accelerator board. That suuucks. :( Stachu?
-
Nah, I only see the one that is physically burned, but yeah even without the memory board installed, it doesn't boot, so it sure does sound like the accelerator board died. Anyone know of a good place to get it repaired (assuming it can be?)
slaapliedje
Derp, you mentioned Stachu. I'll see if I can track him down.
-
Nonsense, there is nothing wrong with the design or function of the original 4000 psu's....
I don't disagree with you. When the A4000 was designed it was a standard, if low cost PSU for the time. It's not like Commodore were breaking new ground with amazing PSU tech.
And I agree with the recapping of the original PSU and while you're at it, putting in a quieter fan.
I just found it a lot easier to put in a modern, manufactured in this century, high quality PSU. Only a few OEMs make a SFX and/or TFX PSU and they are reputable brands and the PSUs are generally of the 80+ certified variety, and run extremely quiet.
Whilst it is true that ATX PSUs do place more focus on 12V, the 80+ have solid 5V performance.
You clearly agree that good clean power is important. You can get it by improving the original A4000 PSU or by getting a brand spanking new SFF PSU.
For the record, the PSU is fine...
I wasn't implying that your PSU was dead. What on first glance is a regular running PSU can still be a culprit for many things that go wrong with one's rig.
I'm not saying you must buy a new PSU. But I would at the very least recap it as per mechy's inclination.
-
Nah, I only see the one that is physically burned, but yeah even without the memory board installed, it doesn't boot, so it sure does sound like the accelerator board died.
Is this probably a 3.3v memory module designed for the PC run at 5V in the Amiga? This would explain the problem. Most of the 3.3v modules do accept 5V, at least for some time, until they die from the high voltage.
-
In almost all cases the 150w a4000 psu will run decked out mediator setups with no problem if recapped. Its a true 150watts,notice the 5v rail which is what the amiga really loads down is weak on many atx,as a matter of fact most modern psu's concentrate on 12v and 3.3v now. i cant count the atx psu's i've seen with 5v poorly regulated and showing as low as 4.85v.
As you say, the main problem with ATX power supplies is that they are designed to provide the main power on the 12V rail, and not on the 5V rail as required by the Amiga. Thus, if you don't draw power from 12V, the 5V supply will break down because its regulation depends on how much current goes over the "main rail" which is 12V. Thus, it's not advisable to replace the Amiga supply with an "off the shelf" PC product. Better get the Amiga supply repaired. There's no high-tech in it, all standard components, but "high voltage", so please: "Hands off, Hobbyists!" Leave this to a trained professional or you could burn down more than just the PSU.
-
sorry to intrude, does anyone have capacitors list for A4000 PSU?
-
Is this probably a 3.3v memory module designed for the PC run at 5V in the Amiga? This would explain the problem. Most of the 3.3v modules do accept 5V, at least for some time, until they die from the high voltage.
Interesting, I have been running these modules for a long time, several years in fact.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009OP8G7Q?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage
I ordered these on Oct 10th 2013, and they do state that they are 5v.
-
sorry to intrude, does anyone have capacitors list for A4000 PSU?
Hi,
I posted the list from my Lite-on supply over in http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=796125
Robert
-
Interesting, I have been running these modules for a long time, several years in fact.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009OP8G7Q?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_search_detailpage
I ordered these on Oct 10th 2013, and they do state that they are 5v.
Thomas has good input on the module failure, but i suspect this is simply a case of a shorted dram chip. I run much dram through my simcheckII tester and have found some cases it reports chips on simms over the years as shorted. I discard them immediately.
The power draw/short that the simm pulled through the traces may of burnt one on the accelerator.
-
I don't disagree with you. When the A4000 was designed it was a standard, if low cost PSU for the time. It's not like Commodore were breaking new ground with amazing PSU tech.
And I agree with the recapping of the original PSU and while you're at it, putting in a quieter fan.
I just found it a lot easier to put in a modern, manufactured in this century, high quality PSU. Only a few OEMs make a SFX and/or TFX PSU and they are reputable brands and the PSUs are generally of the 80+ certified variety, and run extremely quiet.
Whilst it is true that ATX PSUs do place more focus on 12V, the 80+ have solid 5V performance.
You clearly agree that good clean power is important. You can get it by improving the original A4000 PSU or by getting a brand spanking new SFF PSU.
I wasn't implying that your PSU was dead. What on first glance is a regular running PSU can still be a culprit for many things that go wrong with one's rig.
I'm not saying you must buy a new PSU. But I would at the very least recap it as per mechy's inclination.
Don't want to hijack the thread,but i dont think you realize that skynet and liteon were 2 of the major psu makers since the early pc days. Commodore had nothing to do with the psu design other than passing them specs for size, cooling, and power required. These are off the shelf standard pc psu's just like any pc used. The same basic power supply scheme is still the same today, the only difference is switching parts with less gate resistance and such and some run higher switching frequencies which is debateably better. sff,matx,tfx, it doesnt matter all the same designs and i can give you half a dozen examples of junk brands. Even some of the OEM brands fail and have substandard caps,poor filtering,horrible ripple,and shared rails. You are kidding yourself and others if you think new psu's are superior(well very few are).
Many a4000's simply fail because of overheating caused by fans being dirty,neglected or bad. When changing to a quiet fan the CFM needs to be adhered to since it also cools the entire case. Never speed reduce a 4000 psu fan.
-
Is this probably a 3.3v memory module designed for the PC run at 5V in the Amiga? This would explain the problem. Most of the 3.3v modules do accept 5V, at least for some time, until they die from the high voltage.
3.3v simms normally have a regulator, and it is this that normally go's faulty first when memory is pushed to hard.
Overvolting memory is nothing new, even today manufacture(s) are still overvolting the chips. This is something I have been working on, custom private high performance memory module that operate within the JEDEC standard voltage.
-
So the question is what should I do here...
Stachu told me;
"Each defect is different. Sorry, but I cannot give you any quotation.
In general after such accident the repair is
1) quite easy (burned track).
Or
2) Impossible to repair - programmable chips are gone.
Case one repair is roughly 30 to 200EUR + postage back
Case 2 is not repairable at all."
So the question is, should I A) call it dead, and try to search out a PPC (whether there is a new product, or find one on Amibay (looks like there are a few on there in the 1100 Euro range... ugh) try to find an 060 to replace this one (almost as much from what I can see), or B) go ahead and see if he can bring it back to life. I inspected it semi-decently and didn't see any other burn marks on it, but I'm not exactly an expert.
slaapliedje
-
Don't want to hijack the thread,but i dont think you realize that skynet and liteon were 2 of the major psu makers since the early pc days. Commodore had nothing to do with the psu design other than passing them specs for size, cooling, and power required. These are off the shelf standard pc psu's just like any pc used. The same basic power supply scheme is still the same today, the only difference is switching parts with less gate resistance and such and some run higher switching frequencies which is debateably better. sff,matx,tfx, it doesnt matter all the same designs and i can give you half a dozen examples of junk brands. Even some of the OEM brands fail and have substandard caps,poor filtering,horrible ripple,and shared rails. You are kidding yourself and others if you think new psu's are superior(well very few are).
Many a4000's simply fail because of overheating caused by fans being dirty,neglected or bad. When changing to a quiet fan the CFM needs to be adhered to since it also cools the entire case. Never speed reduce a 4000 psu fan.
I Agree! The original supplies are almost bullet proof, but, must be cared for every 20 to 25 years or so, recap it. An ounce of prevention......
-
Oh my god, forgot how slow the 68040 is. The whole system takes 4 times as long to boot, and I can actually see the parts of the screen where things are going to load.
AmikitReal is definitely meant for something more than the stock 68040/25.
Still wondering if I should try to get this fixed, wait until maybe someone will pop up and say "Hey buy this project that has been in the works for 15 years!" or try to find a PPC and/or another 68060 to replace this one.... I do have a copy of AmigaOS 4.1 FE for classics that I could install on it if I got the PPC (been playing around with it in FS-UAE, and it's pretty nice, reminds me of an extremely patched version of 3.9.
Suggestions?
slaapliedje
-
30-200 doesn't sound bad to me. I'd try to get it fixed, if it were me. Good luck! :)
-
Oh my god, forgot how slow the 68040 is. The whole system takes 4 times as long to boot, and I can actually see the parts of the screen where things are going to load.
AmikitReal is definitely meant for something more than the stock 68040/25.
Still wondering if I should try to get this fixed, wait until maybe someone will pop up and say "Hey buy this project that has been in the works for 15 years!" or try to find a PPC and/or another 68060 to replace this one.... I do have a copy of AmigaOS 4.1 FE for classics that I could install on it if I got the PPC (been playing around with it in FS-UAE, and it's pretty nice, reminds me of an extremely patched version of 3.9.
Suggestions?
slaapliedje
I know what you mean. Going back to 030/40 from 060/50 was bad enough on my A2000. now just a games machine. The A4000T gets the most attention now.
-
Yeah, losing the 128mb of ram on the accelerator hurt as well. Though oddly it was only showing part of my ram, I should have 272mb or so (128mb Zorram, 128mb radeon, and 16mb of fast). I'll have to look again and see what's up with that.)
Worse part is, I started this whole process by trying to get the mouse wheel working on my new amiga mouse... and it still doesn't work!
Bah, no luck for me this month.
slaapliedje
-
Err I like to point out that some user(s) here do have 3.3v simm(s), but probably don't realize they are 3.3v simm(s).
It's the Micron MT4LC16M4H9 chips, you will find this on 64 & 128MB simms. see PDF docs.
Test here has shown their can fail in a very short time if voltage exceeds 5.5v, but at 5v no problems has been detected. A good sign there is a problem, the chip will get very hot to a point where you can't hold your finger on the chip.
ALL MODIFCATION AT YOUR OWN RISK.
-
Err I like to point out that some user(s) here do have 3.3v simm(s), but probably don't realize they are 3.3v simm(s).
It's the Micron MT4LC16M4H9 chips, you will find this on 64 & 128MB simms. see PDF docs.
Test here has shown their can fail in a very short time if voltage exceeds 5.5v, but at 5v no problems has been detected. A good sign there is a problem, the chip will get very hot to a point where you can't hold your finger on the chip.
ALL MODIFCATION AT YOUR OWN RISK.
Many simms are 5v tolerant even thought the datasheets dont list them as so, I have run a 128Mb 3.3v simm in a csa derringer for almost 6 years now. The simm doesnt show any heating and has always worked flawless, but as you say,buyer beware. I still think he had a chip short and draw excess current since only one of them fried and it took so long.
-
Many simms are 5v tolerant even thought the datasheets dont list them as so, I have run a 128Mb 3.3v simm in a csa derringer for almost 6 years now. The simm doesnt show any heating and has always worked flawless, but as you say,buyer beware. I still think he had a chip short and draw excess current since only one of them fried and it took so long.
That'd be my guess as well, or that it shorted out further down and went up and dissipated through the burned chip. Everything except the accelerator is still working fine. Stachu should have it in a few days.
slaapliedje
-
EDO/SDRAM/DDR1/DDR2
Voltage & timings plays a very important role here across "all" types of memory modules. In a Dual Channel configuration sometimes one memory module out of the two requires 0.10v higher than the other.
Here this is considered as a fault, but is not a real fault, it just one of the two memory modules require 0.10v extra voltage to operate correctly, but this drives up overall voltage, when clearly one memory module can operate at a lower voltage than the other. So here if one of the two memory modules requires an extra 0.10v, it is automatically rejected by default.
Here all types of high performance memory modules voltage is kept to a minimum and some will fall back into the JEDEC standard with the same or better performance (speed).
For Simms, its the timing that is critical & voltage plays a less important role.
-
Why not get a nice PPC Mac and install MorphOS, setup UAE for the classic stuff to run. I have a perfect system and have it running better than even my CSPPC A3000 ever ran. The plus side is you can pick up a Powerbook and have a fully portable Amiga like experience.
-
Why not get a nice PPC Mac and install MorphOS, setup UAE for the classic stuff to run. I have a perfect system and have it running better than even my CSPPC A3000 ever ran. The plus side is you can pick up a Powerbook and have a fully portable Amiga like experience.
Probably the same reason why I didn't do that in the first place, the hobby to me is about the hardware, not some emulation layer. I can already run OS4 on FS-UAE, it's much more entertaining for me to play with the direct hardware.
slaapliedje
-
Probably the same reason why I didn't do that in the first place, the hobby to me is about the hardware, not some emulation layer. I can already run OS4 on FS-UAE, it's much more entertaining for me to play with the direct hardware.
slaapliedje
Sorry you are having hardware problems. As to running real hardware over emulation I think many of us are the same. Is it possible in some quantum universe that Amiga programs know when they are being executed on a real Amiga? It just feels better!
-
Exactly! I figure it's the same reason I'd much rather have an old 1960's Mustang that I could work on and tweak myself than I would a modern one.
I mean I do have a MiST as well, that is kind of the between real hardware and emulation, and I have tons of emulators as well, but it really isn't the same.
The camp that says 'just run MorphOS, with UAE' never made much sense to me, because I already have plenty of computers that will run UAE.
slaapliedje