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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: OlafS3 on September 20, 2015, 11:23:47 AM
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http://www.apollo-core.com/bringup/index2.htm
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already a bit better than 106mhz clocked 060 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug4_yh3Q288
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Wish they would bring it on already, before I get old and die!
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Wish they would bring it on already, before I get old and die!
+1
i nearly choked myself laughing...:D
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+1
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+1
+1 ;)
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http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?71144-Vampire-600-V2-Amiga-600-FPGA-accelerator-Pre-order
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If this ever sees adaptation to other Amiga models (2000,3000,4000) it could provoke me to buy said old hardware again. I mean it. Being able to do useful* work on an Amiga would be pretty nice. I know I can have that now, and even faster, via emulation but that's just a little "off" for me. Like, why bother, when I'm already in Windows10?
I've followed this for a while and I'm actually kind of excited about it. I know it's not a panacea but still, a "68k" accelerator for native hardware that runs that fast is very cool! But again, for a big-box system. Not really interested in A500/600/1200 (or even the 1000 for that matter).
...
*=use web-apps, etc. at a decent speed.
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This looks promising right now, although it would be nice to see some different benchmarks than SysInfo, which is unreliable. The memory bandwidth doesn't look like a problem though :-)
Worth getting an A600 for ... but I will hold on for the A500 version (hopefully mountable in the 68k socket).
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This looks promising right now, although it would be nice to see some different benchmarks than SysInfo, which is unreliable. The memory bandwidth doesn't look like a problem though :-)
Worth getting an A600 for ... but I will hold on for the A500 version (hopefully mountable in the 68k socket).
I chatted with majsta recently and asked for some news about the project so there they are :-). He is very very excited about the progress of the project so we will see what happens. But at least it looks very promising. Bad news for owners of old accellerators though. If I were them I would sell them before the new cards are available :)
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Wish they would bring it on already, before I get old and die!
That IS the quote of the day...I nearly choked on my sarnie... ;)
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already a bit better than 106mhz clocked 060 here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug4_yh3Q288
SysInfo used in this video is version 3.25. I thought that there was no other than the old v3.24 and the new v4.0 (which couldn't measure speed in Mhz)? But this v3.25 version does measure the Mhz speed. Where can we get this "new" v3.25 version?
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...Bad news for owners of old accellerators though. If I were them I would sell them before the new cards are available :)
NO, not smart! The old accelerators are more compatible with older software/games. This new FPGA Frankenstein card is all about speed. Nice if you want to play pinball and the balls are shooting like bullits all over the screen..
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NO, not smart! The old accelerators are more compatible with older software/games. This new FPGA Frankenstein card is all about speed. Nice if you want to play pinball and the balls are shooting like bullits all over the screen..
the same is true for wingcommander and other games... unplayable on fast hardware.
Are these games running slower on a old 060 accellerator?
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Some games run as fast as they can on anything like Barbarian 2 and Wing Commander but most (95 %) work at same speed as they should.
More games won't start with Kick 3.1 Amigas (but strangely work on Kick 3.0 Amigas for some reason).
@Bootdisk
Did you really really have to say A1200 too ? :roflmao:
It's a race against time as some stated and this card would probably be only one I would want to have as replacement.Although A500 was most sold most Amiga 1200s survived and are still used.
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When they completes this for A500 or A1200 then I will make a order.
Just fantastic to have fantastic speed and possible to connect your amiga to a hdmi screen.
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the same is true for wingcommander and other games... unplayable on fast hardware.
Are these games running slower on a old 060 accellerator?
On 060 accelerators you can always disable burst & caches if games are running to fast.
I'm not sure with this new FPGA, but why would you need so much speed on an old ECS A600 anyway? Rendering low-res animations with Real3D? I can do that much faster with my PC in Hires-Laced mode.
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Very interested in A1200 or A4000D compatible models. Once available, I'll likely order 2-3 of them. Don't know if they make socketed FPGA chips, but that might be something to consider too (again, only if feasible). As technology marches on, 68K compatible CPUs are not likely, but faster FPGA chips are definitely probable.
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another update:
http://majsta.com/
few developer boards delivered, new extended design, production run soon.
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another update:
http://majsta.com/
few developer boards delivered, new extended design, production run soon.
all for A600 :(
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all for A600 :(
gunnar had promised that there will be options for all models. But you have to start somewhere
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all for A600 :(
i too do not have an a600 anymore, still i applaud this concentrated approach instead of a expectedly failed attempt to serve everybody right away with all he wishes for.
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gunnar had promised that there will be options for all models. But you have to start somewhere
Gunnar has not promised anything, stop using that word! Besides, he is not the one doing the hardware, his hope is that Apollo will become defacto standard CPU core for Amiga, and that others will license his core for their acc card products.
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his hope is that Apollo will become defacto standard CPU core for Amiga, and that others will license his core for their acc card products.
even though im rather for open source (for security reasons) i would have nothing against if gunnar succeeds with his core even if others would have to license it. i have my doubts about extensions and establishing new standards, but thats another matter.
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Gunnar has not promised anything, stop using that word! Besides, he is not the one doing the hardware, his hope is that Apollo will become defacto standard CPU core for Amiga, and that others will license his core for their acc card products.
From my perspective, Gunnar has promised nothing. He has stated that he would like to and plans to bring out new accelerators for different Amiga models. Gunnar has been known to change his mind and plans though.
even though im rather for open source (for security reasons) i would have nothing against if gunnar succeeds with his core even if others would have to license it. i have my doubts about extensions and establishing new standards, but thats another matter.
A single standard is good but one man making all the decisions for it is not. I would hope that those licensing the product would receive the source code with some ability to make changes.
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A single standard is good but one man making all the decisions for it is not. I would hope that those licensing the product would receive the source code with some ability to make changes.
people behind apollo core, be it gunnar or whomever, are making their choices, and thats their own right. if these choices will become standard depends on many factors, but also on social dynamics similar to what you might thought of as "free market" or "delivery contra demand". i thought this is sympathetic to you, since if the standard occures to be good it may be successful, and then the authors dont have much interest to keep it back. to me its strange that exactly you are calling here for "state control";)
Gunnar has been known to change his mind and plans though.
im fine with this attitude. i consider this flexible. remember the long quarrel about movep and that it finally got implemented without any further discussion. questioning and reconsidering is genuinely positive, and people who appear stubborn, may not be really that much as they appear.
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I am not worried, the grand plan will never happen, at "best" it just cause yet another split in the community, and in time more compatible open source cores will take over anyways.
And I repeat - all we have is _talk_ that this and that is implemented - or rather, that it is _decided_ to _become_ implemented. So far I have yet to see any concrete evidence of anything when it comes to actual compatibility and the features claimed.
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remember the long quarrel about movep and that it finally got implemented without any further discussion.
"it finally got implemented" you say. Or maybe he decided that it would be a cool thing to announce, who knows...
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Gunnar has not promised anything...
Seriously?
You may need professional help. ;)
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Seriously?
You may need professional help. ;)
No, I have been following this quite carefully. He has explicitly not been promising anything, only suggesting possibilities. All the "promises" are made up by people who read his stuff and then go on to boards like here and elsewhere, saying "they have promised HDMI output!!", "He promised hardware X, Y and Z". No-one in the Apollo team has promised anything.
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people behind apollo core, be it gunnar or whomever, are making their choices, and thats their own right. if these choices will become standard depends on many factors, but also on social dynamics similar to what you might thought of as "free market" or "delivery contra demand". i thought this is sympathetic to you, since if the standard occures to be good it may be successful, and then the authors dont have much interest to keep it back. to me its strange that exactly you are calling here for "state control";)
Gunnar is free to make his choices even though they may sabotage his own project and plans. IMO, Gunnar is overbearing and overwhelms other people's opinions in his "teams" which interferes with their choices. It is his right when he created the team but it is also arrogant and selfish.
im fine with this attitude. i consider this flexible. remember the long quarrel about movep and that it finally got implemented without any further discussion. questioning and reconsidering is genuinely positive, and people who appear stubborn, may not be really that much as they appear.
Gunnar finally took meynaf's and my advice in several areas (especially about compatibility) after he discredited our arguments and ignored our questions. When Gunnar didn't respect us enough, I suggested expanding the team with some other people (well respected compiler maintainers and AmigaOS developers) so a consensus could be formed but Gunnar's opinion seems to be that the processor designers by themselves (him) have privileged authority over all decisions. Gunnar's teams involve and expect loyal subordination instead of working together as diverse respected peers. Maybe the project will succeed due to personal efforts but it is unlikely to be as successful as a real "team" effort.
I am not worried, the grand plan will never happen, at "best" it just cause yet another split in the community, and in time more compatible open source cores will take over anyways.
Other open source cores will likely become more advanced and faster but not to the level of the Apollo core. The fastest FPGA Arcade and Mist cores (based off the TG68) will likely never exceed 68040 performance while the Apollo core has already exceeded 68060 performance and approaches the performance of the best ColdFire hard processors in an affordable FPGA of Majsta's latest accelerator. I have every reason to believe that the Apollo core technology is real and is a unique opportunity for the Amiga to become relevant and affordable again. Leadership and investment are lacking in the "grand plan" so you are probably correct in your pessimism.
And I repeat - all we have is _talk_ that this and that is implemented - or rather, that it is _decided_ to _become_ implemented. So far I have yet to see any concrete evidence of anything when it comes to actual compatibility and the features claimed.
Frustration leads to pessimism, pessimism leads to anger, anger leads to the dark side. You are obviously an intelligent person so why are you so unjustifiably negative?
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all in all i understand that one can have personal issues here, but why do we need to talk this approach bad while it is apparently progressing. i dont even have an a600 any more, as i said, to jump right in. but i fail to see why one would have to be disappointed that something gets developed, even if he doesnt intend to use it.
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The fastest FPGA Arcade and Mist cores (based off the TG68) will likely never exceed 68040 performance
You might want to word that more carefully.
The 68K implementation running on the Mist/FPGAA of _today_ might stop at 040.
That same core can be re-targeted for, say, a Stratix 10 chip (we _are_ used to pay through the nose for our hw anyway) and it would probably be 2-5 times faster, mostly as-is. No, there are no FPGA designs out there with that chip on, but why should the Mist/FPGAA be the end of the evolutionary line?
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As soon as there is an 060@300-400MHz FPGA with full AGA it's time to switch :-)
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You might want to word that more carefully.
The 68K implementation running on the Mist/FPGAA of _today_ might stop at 040.
That same core can be re-targeted for, say, a Stratix 10 chip (we _are_ used to pay through the nose for our hw anyway) and it would probably be 2-5 times faster, mostly as-is. No, there are no FPGA designs out there with that chip on, but why should the Mist/FPGAA be the end of the evolutionary line?
I was assuming that the next generation FPGA hardware would get new names but I suppose significant upgrades with the same name are possible. You are correct that there are more expensive FPGAs available which could make the Apollo core faster than the fastest ColdFire hard CPU. The Stratix is pretty expensive but there are some medium priced FPGAs which would double the performance and still come out at less than half the price of new AmigaOS 4 hardware.
As soon as there is an 060@300-400MHz FPGA with full AGA it's time to switch :-)
Two more weeks ;).
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Other open source cores will likely become more advanced and faster but not to the level of the Apollo core.
Why? Really, why do you say so? Are you saying Gunnar is some sort of uniq wizard with supernatural abilities?
The fastest FPGA Arcade and Mist cores (based off the TG68) will likely never exceed 68040 performance while the Apollo core has already exceeded 68060 performance and approaches the performance of the best ColdFire hard processors in an affordable FPGA of Majsta's latest accelerator.
So what? FPGA Arcade are here and now, MIST is already in its 3rd incarnation, and why would it be the final edition? As these boards gets more popular, people experiment more, demands increase etc.
The nice thing is that FPGA gives people the freedom to choose, the individual uer can chose to use TG68 or Apollo or whatever there will be on his FPGA system, be it an accelerator for a real Amiga, or a stand alone board.
I have every reason to believe that the Apollo core technology is real and is a unique opportunity for the Amiga to become relevant and affordable again.
Relevant how? The operating system is irrelevant, the software is irrelevant, the relevant games and applications are already reimplemented or ported or even emulated on relevant systems.
Leadership and investment are lacking in the "grand plan" so you are probably correct in your pessimism.
Frustration leads to pessimism, pessimism leads to anger, anger leads to the dark side. You are obviously an intelligent person so why are you so unjustifiably negative?
I am not pessimist, I know that it will all go well. I am merely eyerolling over the delusionism in the community, it is not being negative, it is being realistic.
I am in this for the fun and entertainment :laughing:
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Btw - something I want to look into, is to modify the Amiga core and build one that is less about accurate emulation of chipset to support every thinkable game under the sun, but rather implement features so called "hi end" productivity users care about, things like RTG and RTA, high speed I/O, high speed network options etc.
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Why? Really, why do you say so? Are you saying Gunnar is some sort of uniq wizard with supernatural abilities?
Gunnar, Jens and Chris have a very good understanding of both processor design and FPGA programming. Granted, most processor designers today pretty much have to have good FPGA programming skills as this is how processors are made but the good ones make huge salaries. These guys worked in the field (for IBM) before they decided to create their own processor design. Employees who split from larger companies to innovate outside of the usually more restrictive big business atmosphere is where most successful small businesses come from. It just so happens that these guys are Amiga and 68k fans who want to do something with the Amiga and 68k. Thomas Hirsch, the Natami designer, is also an Amiga fan who is a professional hardware designer. These guys want to work on the Amiga and 68k and I believe would be willing to work for less to do what they love and help bring back the Amiga from the edge of extinction. I know as I worked for free helping to design and document a new 68k ISA, made a 68k code analyzer from a disassembler and made suggestions based on my assembler and compiler experience (Gunnar is using several of my ideas and suggestions). Maybe it is too late for the Amiga. All the big guys want to continue a dead end route making what is left of the Amiga from PC hardware for the classes instead of the masses.
So what? FPGA Arcade are here and now, MIST is already in its 3rd incarnation, and why would it be the final edition? As these boards gets more popular, people experiment more, demands increase etc.
I am happy to see enhanced versions but I wish they would change the name slightly to distinguish like Mist v3 or Mist MKIII.
The nice thing is that FPGA gives people the freedom to choose, the individual user can chose to use TG68 or Apollo or whatever there will be on his FPGA system, be it an accelerator for a real Amiga, or a stand alone board.
I agree but don't ask about the time I suggested allowing the TG68 to work on the Apollo accelerator for "compatibility" purposes. I received quite a response and I'm not sure if Gunnar was joking or peeved (maybe some of both). Anyway, the TG68 has been designed with compatibility as the main goal while the Apollo core has been designed with performance as the main goal. Users can have the best of both worlds with an FPGA as it is programmable.
Relevant how? The operating system is irrelevant, the software is irrelevant, the relevant games and applications are already reimplemented or ported or even emulated on relevant systems.
Relevant as in a healthy alternative platform which people can enjoy instead of declining to extinction.
I am not pessimist, I know that it will all go well. I am merely eyerolling over the delusionism in the community, it is not being negative, it is being realistic.
I am in this for the fun and entertainment :laughing:
Sarcasm! Now that is a good way to handle the situation ;).
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Two more weeks ;).
If this the case I'll be purchasing! No more old hardware!
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btw - something i want to look into, is to modify the amiga core and build one that is less about accurate emulation of chipset to support every thinkable game under the sun, but rather implement features so called "hi end" productivity users care about, things like rtg and rta, high speed i/o, high speed network options etc.
do it
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If this the case I'll be purchasing! No more old hardware!
When I was told in September 2014 that the A500 version should be ready in three weeks I was really enthusiastic - but that was over a year ago now. I followed the IRC channel and there seemed to be bug issues. I'm starting to suspect the bug may in fact may be a case of Natamitis and I think it may be terminal. :(
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My Cyberstorm MK1 kicked the bucket recently, so I would LOVE for a new A4000D accelerator to be released.
Also, I bought a MiST a few months ago, how would I tell if it's the v3 or not?
Sadly, I haven't had much time to do anything with it except get TOS to boot!
I do find it odd that they're initially building this for the A600, since I always thought it was sort of the black sheep of the Amiga family. But then it's probably one of the easiest 'classic (read non-AGA)' Amigas to get a hold of in good condition. I know our A500 that was passed down to us from a friend of my older brothers had died a horrible death many moons ago.
slaapliedje
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I understand the A600 was targeted as it was the machine with fewest upgrade options. I'm unsure how much difference there is between the A600 and A1200/3000/4000 bus but I think, due to the simplicity of the board design (thanks to the FPGA) it shouldn't be too difficult to design cards for other machines.
Once the core is stable and available I think (hope!) things may snowball... :D
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when they comes with a solutions for A500 or A1200 I will buy.
A600 I did own maybe the smallest computer I have ever used.... but did sell it.
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an update:
http://kipper2k.com/vampire/v3003_x15_SysInfo.jpg
ah, seems bringup page has been updated as well:
http://apollo-core.com/bringup/index2.htm
pity we have no backup for detailed comparison, seems the core gets clocked at a higher speed.
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an update:
http://kipper2k.com/vampire/v3003_x15_SysInfo.jpg
ah, seems bringup page has been updated as well:
http://apollo-core.com/bringup/index2.htm
pity we have no backup for detailed comparison, seems the core gets clocked at a higher speed.
update on the apollo core bringup page
http://www.apollo-core.com/bringup/index2.htm
VIDEO Showing A600 with FULLHD 1920x1080 video out in Hicolor!
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That is really amazing!
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoJ-RsWLd2g
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While the comparison is pretty impressive and shows about twice the speed for the Vampire against the 060/80 it also reminds me how slow 68k actually is. My Powerbook calculates the glassletter scene with the same resolution in 9s - about 16 times the speed of the Vampire and about 30 times the speed of a 060/80. And that without being native ppc code, but run by the Trance 68k JIT.
But I am really looking forward to the Vampireboard and may purchase one eventually. It'll be the fastest 68k system.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoJ-RsWLd2g
Impressive, about the speed of a 144mhz 060. Maybe one day there will be one to bring my old 3000/4000's back to life.
Plaz
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Wolfenstein 3D
https://vimeo.com/148769022
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This is quite impressive. I would like to see a comparison with a stock 1200, 030 A1200, 060 A1200 and a Vampire board playing Quake for Amiga at the same resolution.
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In the Cinema 4D test the FPU was disabled on the 060 to be fair to the Vampire since the FPU is not finished. In reality the 060 would be 3-5x faster if the FPU was enabled. It does show that in integer operations the Vampire IS 2x faster than the 060 but who would ever try to run a 3d application with no FPU.
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Scummvm ESC running Sam&Max on v600 2. Seems to run smooth enough.
https://vimeo.com/149560986
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RTG on A600, it keeps getting better :)
http://www.kipper2k.com/video/65kcolourwb.jpg
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I understand the A600 was targeted as it was the machine with fewest upgrade options.
I thought it was because that was just what he had when he started. IMO it doesn't make much sense to pick the least popular Amiga just because it didn't have upgrade options. He could of course just be a masochist.
I'm unsure how much difference there is between the A600 and A1200/3000/4000 bus
Conceptually it's similar because it's a parallel cpu bus, but there are plenty of differences between them. A600 is only 16 bit, the rest are 32bit. A3000/A4000 cpu bus is asynchronous, while A600 is synced to the chipset.
but I think, due to the simplicity of the board design (thanks to the FPGA) it shouldn't be too difficult to design cards for other machines.
If it were simple then why has nobody else done it? There are off the shelf FPGA cores.
Once the core is stable and available I think (hope!) things may snowball... :D
Once the A600 version is stable they can start again and design new hardware and write new code for the next machine. Of course there will likely be a chunk of code that can be reused, but it's still a whole lot of work.
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All of this advances are OK but a this speed we see a1200 prototype card at 2020.
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I thought it was because that was just what he had when he started.
If it were simple then why has nobody else done it? There are off the shelf FPGA cores.
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Well there was the Vampire 1 last year, I think the hardware is not the problem, it is the development of the fpga cpu.
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Well there was the Vampire 1 last year, I think the hardware is not the problem, it is the development of the fpga cpu.
One person in the world has developed two versions so far and you think hardware isn't the problem? There are far more people developing cores for minimig/mist/fpgaarcade and there are fpga cpu cores you can take off the shelf. It's easier and cheaper to get into HDL side, prototyping and designing boards is a whole different game.
It shouldn't be too hard to translate the A600 Vampire 2 into an A1000/A500 board, so I'd expect to see that next as it might sell a few. Maybe an A2000 board if someone is interested, but as it's going to be closed source then you will need to get someone in the inner sanctum interested as it will probably require a few tweaks. Probably won't sell many but the effort should be low.
An A3000/4000 card is going to be a lot of work as it's a much faster and more complex cpu slot, different buster revisions to deal with etc. The high cost of buying a few of them for R&D and potentially damaging them, compared to the low number of people who would buy one is likely to put them off.
A1200 is probably in between complexity wise and is probably the card that will sell the most. However the different revisions of motherboards are likely to create stability issues and they might want to avoid that altogether.
I am not sure what "Just to mention that this board will never enter serial production. It will be used only for development purpose. " means, but it might be that you need to wait for V3 to be able to buy one.
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If I recall correctly, the Vampire boards are open sourced hardware. The "problem" is the expanded Apollo core that is proprietary. It may seem that the Grand Plan is to attempty to create a new de-facto proprietary 68k CPU for Amiga, a CPU core that can be licensed by hardware manufactorers from Gunnar.
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If I recall correctly, the Vampire boards are open sourced hardware. The "problem" is the expanded Apollo core that is proprietary. It may seem that the Grand Plan is to attempty to create a new de-facto proprietary 68k CPU for Amiga, a CPU core that can be licensed by hardware manufactorers from Gunnar.
Only the first version is. Vampire 600 V1.
But at least one more (kipper2k) other then Igor is making V2 so i think he is open to have others making cards. Maybe by license.
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https://vimeo.com/150211488
Picasso 96 ? well yes :D
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https://vimeo.com/150342536
Amiga 600 playing video with RiVA - 68k MPEG Player (very first run)