Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: restore2003 on February 23, 2004, 12:20:48 PM
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A post by BBRV on moobunny today:
Moobunny comment (http://www.flyingmice.com/cgi-bin/squidcgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/98012.shtml)
What do you guys think of this?
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I never understand a word those guys say, to be honest. It's like reading bad poetry ;-)
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that_punk_guy wrote:
I never understand a word those guys say, to be honest. It's like reading bad poetry ;-)
Agree fully. I dont read that site unless a post lie this comes and I click to see whats up.
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it starts here:
http://www.morphos-news.de/comments.php?lg=en&nid=658
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haha :lol:
It looks like even DoomMaster has joined the discussion:
Moobunny (http://www.flyingmice.com/cgi-bin/squidcgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/98020.shtml)
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Perhaps this has something to it:
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1077310066&category=forum&number=16#comment (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1077310066&category=forum&number=16#comment)
Or perhaps they are aiming at the fact that assets (sources, trademarks, and other IP rights) was transferred *after* AmigaInc was "on the verge of bankruptcy", which is "blatantly illigal" according to Ben Hermans?
http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1076172906&category=forum&number=39#comment (http://www.ann.lu/comments2.cgi?show=1076172906&category=forum&number=39#comment)
Or perhaps it's something else?
It will be interesting to follow though.
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Come on people! its happening!
Genesi statement (http://www.flyingmice.com/cgi-bin/squidcgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/98063.shtml)
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Apparently something important happened. Can someone briefly explain to me (without resorting to calling names and trolling) what the fuss is all about?
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1. Genesi will enforce the "upgrade" clauses to AmigaOS 4.2 and beyond.
2. The Hyperion/Eyetech OS 4.0 Agreement will be declared "null and void and of no force or effect."
3. We will sublicense under the Agreement and the ruling
4. We can sublicense Hyperion for less than they have agreed to pay -- that is, if we can all get along
If Genesi gets it their way, its byebye Amiga Inc :-o
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Amiga Inc themselves claimed that AmigaOS 4.2 is the upgrade to their AmigaDE.
Buck has the rights to the full upgrade path to AmigaDE.
This includes AmigaOS4.2+
The price has already been fixed by contract too, and it's cheaper than the deal Hyperion's getting!
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This could be the best thing that has happened to this community in YEARS (provided that Hyperion and Eyetech stops burning bridges and play their cards right)!
Finally peace and unity is within reach!
:-)
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takemehomegrandma wrote:
This could be the best thing that has happened to this community in YEARS (provided that Hyperion and Eyetech stops burning bridges and play their cards right)!
Finally peace and unity is within reach!
:-)
And everyone benefits, no matter where they are in the great divide right now.
Hell, even Seehund get's closer to his dream! :lol:
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Good one! :-D
But yes, it is a good thing...
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LOL
Hyperion OWN OS4
there is simply no possible way a contract, not matter how badly mangled, with Amiga Inc can possibly give Genesi OS4.
At best all it means is the DE player they have licensed must be upgraded to the same level as that in OS4.2.
Just because it is integrated does not in any way mean that the two products are the same, in fact in the same page it is clearly stated OS4 and Amiga DE are two seperate products!
Which is all besides the point.
What is written on that page is not a contract, at best it is a guidline of the plan Amiga Inc had for the future at that time, and it is certainly NOT in any contract Amiga Inc has with Genesi.
Which is all premature. As yet I have seen or heard of absolutely no ruling in the initial case.Just because the deadline has passed means nothing, the judge still has to make and apply its final ruling into exactly how anything gained is to be awarded, and to who.Just because Genesi is listed on the deposition as a plaintiff does not garuntee that that particular company will gain anything of value, the contract in question was not with them it was with Thedic-germany, a completely different business entity.
Finally, even if Genesi do manage to void the contract in question, no longer will either eyetech or Hyperion be required to pay any license fee at all, so why the hell would they pay Genesi?They would also be under no obligation to include Amiga DE in the upgrade path of OS4....the contract is voided remember.
Once again this is nothing but FUD. Unless of course Gary Hary did some fast dealing during his stint as CEO of AMiga Inc. ROFL.
It is plainly obvious to me that Bill Buck has a personal vendetta against Bill McEwen, and possibley Ben Hermans, and is using his position to achieve completion of this vendetta. A gross misuse of power and the responsibility that has been provided to him in my opinion.
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What do you guys think of this?
I think there is going to be a small segment of the community who will overreact terribly. I hope the majority keep a level head and really think through what has just happened.
Speaking for myself, and not my company, I think this could very possibly be the best thing that has happened for the community in a long, long time. Speculation of course, I will simply sit back and watch this play out like everyone else.
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Okay. Am I to read 'has the rights to' as 'is owner of'? Or as 'cannot be legally locked out of prior licensing agreements'? Both cases would force all parties back to the negiotiating table, so that's good news.
However, what is to stop Amiga, Inc. from swiftly splitting up the proposed OS development path into a DE-only and AOS4-only one? Or renaming future upgrades to the AOS4 4.0.x as to avoid selling a 4.2 product? (I'm sure that they cannot easily do so because of agreements with Hyperion, but still.) I can't recall DE as being that big a hit, so they might decide to drop DE-support in its entirety, turning the court ruling into a Phyrric victory if nothing else.
In other words, I'm still confused, but I take it that's a normal reaction... :-)
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In other words, I'm still confused, but I take it that's a normal reaction...
Of course it's confusing, it's mostly legal mumbo jumbo:-) What does seem pretty clear is Genesi definately won their lawsuit, and *appear* to be in the position they state. <--
Notice I said APPEAR, I have not read the contracts and I am not a lawyer. I'm just munching popcorn enjoying the show.
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One 'good' thing in AmigaInc was that they kept everything secret and avoided confusing their followers with complex issues. OTOH, they also did hide lot relevant info from Amigians, but that was unavoidable cause othervice people would have lost faith to them years ago.
For this particular.. I don't speculate. It may well happen... But I'll rather wait and see.
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IonDeluxe wrote:
LOL
Hyperion OWN OS4
Of course, and they will continue to do so! It might even be called *Amiga* OS4, who knows?
;-)
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To be perfectly honest, I'm a bit dissapointed... I was expecting some massive climax... you know like you get in Perry Mason...
but no, no fireworks, no gun battles... just the damp squib of McEwans dreams of being a dotcom millionare fizzing out into the nothingness...
I might have to start watching soap operas now :-(
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What does this mean for AOS 4 and the Amiga One?
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It looks like Amiga Inc has become a victim of their own PR-bulls*it - Genesi have turned Amiga Inc's fantasties back on them. We all know that when they announced they'd changed their minds about killing off AmigaOS, and that OS4.2 and onwards, would be magically merged with DE was a complete dillusion.
Now, thanks to Amiga Inc's belief that nobody would challenge their unrealistic fantasy-plans for the future, Hyperion are facing a license change.
Let's hope that Amiga Inc is put down quickly so they can't do any more damage to the community.
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Trying work out the Amiga-Genesi situation is like an erection, the more you think about it, the harder it gets :-)
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I think the outcome is far worse than I predicted. And, before I rant I'm going to investigate further. I'm seeing a lot of posts not making sense.
I was warned that moobunny has a lot of fiction. Whether or not someone used their usernames to place fake posts or not, I wouldn't recommend trusting anything posted there. Better get the facts here at Amiga.org.
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Moobunny again??????
i rarely go there - as another poster said, i see these things only when someone points them out - but as near as i can see, Moobunny is just another place for spam. and insults flying!
are we supposed tp believe head of companies go there to post policy??? (and people calling each other "idiots"!!!!)
If so, that's sad!
why are people airing their dirty laundry in public?????
jesus, it's disgusting!
:whack:
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Amiga.com appears to be down. Neat.
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Dalamar wrote:
Amiga.com appears to be down. Neat.
Nope... not here
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cecilia wrote:
Moobunny again??????
i rarely go there - as another poster said, i see these things only when someone points them out - but as near as i can see, Moobunny is just another place for spam. and insults flying!
are we supposed tp believe head of companies go there to post policy??? (and people calling each other "idiots"!!!!)
If so, that's sad!
why are people airing their dirty laundry in public?????
jesus, it's disgusting!
:whack:
Moobunny is the mens room, sure, but you overhear a lot of neat stuff in the mens room! :lol:
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hnl_dk wrote:
Dalamar wrote:
Amiga.com appears to be down. Neat.
Nope... not here
Well it is here in CA. DNS timeout. You may have it cached on your DNS server. I've tried two different networks.
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Skickar signaler till amiga.com [69.44.18.43] med 32 byte data:
Svar från 69.44.18.43: byte=32 tid=137ms TTL=50
Svar från 69.44.18.43: byte=32 tid=134ms TTL=50
Svar från 69.44.18.43: byte=32 tid=144ms TTL=50
Svar från 69.44.18.43: byte=32 tid=143ms TTL=50
Ping-statistik för 69.44.18.43:
Paket: Skickade = 4, mottagna = 4, Förlorade = 0 (0 %),
Ungefärligt överföringstid i millisekunder:
Lägsta = 134 ms, Högsta = 144 ms, Medel = 139 ms
I can ping it...
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ok, right now it says
Server busy; Please try again later.
But this does not mean anything (negative or positive)
Could be a server error... or maybe they are uploading the new Power Amiga website :-D
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Down here too...
brother in law's wedding? :-D
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Amiga.com appears to be down. Neat.
The sever is very busy. But reachable
Markus
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@Markus_Bieler
Your sig is freaking me out man. :-)
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ottomobiehl wrote:
@Markus_Bieler
Your sig is freaking me out man. :-)
Hell, his AVATAR is freaking me out! :lol:
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To many unprofessional companies in this market, using web forums as if they are some sort of official channel.
All the professional Amiga companies died years ago and what is left is cowboys.
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Hi,
I have some probs to getting to Amiga's sites. The main page is ok but selecting any of the "sites" results in "server busy" or just loading forever.
Everything seems ok now. :-)
Coder
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Hell, his AVATAR is freaking me out!
:lol:
I just checked out their site and I could get access it. Earlier I could only access their main (portal?) page but all of the links therein were either busy or wouldn't load.
of course Coder just said all that too. :-)
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Got accesss again :-D
And yes... you have a great avatar (http://amigaworld.net/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif)
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Paul_Gadd wrote:
To many unprofessional companies in this market, using web forums as if they are some sort of official channel.
All the professional Amiga companies died years ago and what is left is cowboys.
that's exactly how i feel.
i've just come to believe that it's best to completely ignore all the "heads" of anything and only care about what I need from a computer.
or, as 'Agnostic Front' once said, "There's no justice, there's just us".
which is why I find all this fighting repulsive. since we can only depend on each other (in the amiga community), why argue about stupid sh1t???
we need to find ways to help each other because no one else gives a crap.
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Yippy Ki Yay,
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And still no update on amiga.com.. sigh
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> And still no update on amiga.com.. sigh
Why? There is no update on genesi.lu either. Only bbrv or someone who pretends to be him trolling around in some online forum. But I also would appreciate an executive update from Bill McEwen which clarifies everything.
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OT
or, as 'Agnostic Front' once said,
Huh? i thought you were female? :-?
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redrumloa wrote:
OT
or, as 'Agnostic Front' once said,
Huh? i thought you were female? :-?
i am. does that mean i'm automatically ignorant?
I happen to like Hardcore.
I've seen Agnostic Front live. I've seen Bad Brains live! I used to go to CBGB's every Sunday for their Hardcore shows.
i didn't mosh (hey, i'm an artist and i need to be careful of my hands. you mind???), but i always enjoyed watching the guys do that.
sure, it's not a 'girl thing' to do. but i've always been a failure at being a girl.
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Moobunny is just another place for spam. and insults flying!
Well, to its credit, Moobunny, as an essentially unmoderated forum, lets people say what they want and lets threads run until nobody's interested anymore. Of course you have to put up with the bad to get the good, but I like the fact that no heavy-handed moderators stop conversations because they don't happen to like the tone or whatever.
You're right that the freedom leads to abuse for some immature people. On the other hand, there are good conversations there, with people who know what they're talking about. This ebbs and flows, like at other places.
I think the best way to summarize the Moobunny character is "skeptical." There's little patience with "fans" of whatever persuasion, if they don't have a rational basis for their enthusiasm.
I think bbrv posts at Moobunny because, once you get past the frothing of immature jerks, there is a core of intelligent and articulate people frequenting the place. That's my take, anyway. And compared to some other sites, he hasn't been confronted by pages of posts by people wishing him to die, give up the computing business, improve his sex life, and other nicities. Of course he draws these guys like a magnet. Once he refers to any subset as "morons" or "idiots," a whole bunch of people rise up to a) take offense, and b) by responding with even lower, braindead insults, prove his words well-chosen. Not the way for a company president to act? Maybe not, but at least he's been involved and in touch, which is a lot better than how that other CEO has handled things. I wouldn't say things the way bbrv says them, either. But I'm also not on the receiving end of what he and Genesi have had to put up with every since introducing products in this market.
-- gary_c
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rayt wrote:
> But I also would appreciate an executive update from Bill McEwen which clarifies everything.
Now that would be a novelty ........
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ottomobiehl wrote:
@Markus_Bieler
Your sig is freaking me out man. :-)
That's nothing! :-D
(http://www.danasoft.com/sig/whabang.jpg)
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hey! There are more important things happening than ur avatars and sigs :-P
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restore2003 wrote:
hey! There are more important things happening than ur avatars and sigs :-P
Where? :lol:
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>Apparently something important happened. Can someone >briefly explain to me (without resorting to calling names >and trolling) what the fuss is all about?
The fuss is about Buck throwing *UD (Mud and FUD) again.
Nothing really happening. His claims are pointless.
His point is of course that he tries to make potential OS 4
buyers unsure.
Steffen
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MagicSN wrote:
>Apparently something important happened. Can someone >briefly explain to me (without resorting to calling names >and trolling) what the fuss is all about?
The fuss is about Buck throwing *UD (Mud and FUD) again.
Nothing really happening. His claims are pointless.
His point is of course that he tries to make potential OS 4
buyers unsure.
Steffen
Unsure about what? He has made it very clear that he has no intention of stopping development, and is even perpared to reduce the licence fee that Hyperion whould have to pay for the Amiga name.
You are just spreading FUD about Bill Buck :-P
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MagicSN wrote:
>Apparently something important happened. Can someone >briefly explain to me (without resorting to calling names >and trolling) what the fuss is all about?
The fuss is about Buck throwing *UD (Mud and FUD) again.
Nothing really happening. His claims are pointless.
Some people keep saying that (they said it about the "AmigaDE case" too (and this is actually the same, settled case, not a new one)) but keep being corrected time after time when the reality catches up with them.
If this comes through the way it should, it will be the most positive thing that happened to the Amiga community for many years. It looks like Hyperion might find themselves to be standing in front of a serious decision soon. Provided that Hyperion plays ball in a sensible way, everyone will win (Hyperion, Genesi, the customers, the resellers, the developers -- everyone in the community), and we will have unity again!
:-)
His point is of course that he tries to make potential OS 4
buyers unsure.
Steffen
That's a pretty wild and groundless accusation if you ask me. Besides, no-one can buy OS4 anyway, and I am pretty sure about that ...
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bloodline wrote:
Unsure about what? He has made it very clear that he has no intention of stopping development, and is even perpared to reduce the licence fee that Hyperion whould have to pay for the Amiga name.
You are just spreading FUD about Bill Buck :-P
Ambigous statements about the outcome from the case, or "The Hyperion/Eyetech OS 4.0 Agreement will be declared "null and void and of no force or effect." " ring a bell?
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Ok, so this is totally up to Hyperion now? But im not so sure Hyperion actually wants to make negotiations with Genesi in the first place... Hyperion should find a larger company who is interested spitting money into the project, and is will do its best to promote os4, and has a name and a reputation thats heard of in the computer world.
Or am i talking nonsence? :-)
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@TMHG
Why is it I can't read any of your postings without the phrase "For God's sake, think for yourself" coming to mind?
Have you ever written a post which isn't regurgitated 'properganda'?
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restore2003 wrote:
Ok, so this is totally up to Hyperion now? But im not so sure Hyperion actually wants to make negotiations with Genesi in the first place... Hyperion should find a larger company who is interested spitting money into the project, and is will do its best to promote os4, and has a name and a reputation thats heard of in the computer world.
Or am i talking nonsence? :-)
I am only speculating of course, but the way I see things, it might very well come to that - Hyperion might have to make a choice. No-one has to love each other to be able to do business you know, but it would help if *some* efforts were put into *building* bridges instead of burning them down as soon as there is a chance ...
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uncharted wrote:
@TMHG
Why is it I can't read any of your postings without the phrase "For God's sake, think for yourself" coming to mind?
Have you ever written a post which isn't regurgitated 'properganda'?
Propaganda?!! LOL! :lol: :roflmao:
I'll tell you this, I have been thinking a lot about this (not everyone has, it seems), and my writings are the results of that. Sure, I don't know any more facts than what's publically available (but a lot of you doesn't even read *that* before commenting), and I agree that I am very much *speculating*.
I am happy to discuss my point of view however, but not with someone who writes lame insults like "think for youself" and "propaganda" instead of putting up counter-arguments for a discussion!
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@tmhg:
I am, and many others, are unsure of what YOU are thinking about when u speak of building bridges, if you want a union, then you have to take into consideration that the backside of all this, could be that MorphOS dies a silent death, and all powers are focused on bringing OS4 to the Pegasos.
Think about that.
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(Off Topic, but I think it's cool when someones words are powered by "many others"? ;-))
I don't see any reasons to why MorphOS, AROS or any other OS running on Pegasos needs to "die"?! They are all being developed by different teams, they can all be used in different products. Hyperions OS would on the Pegasos be AmigaOS4, another flower in the Pegasos OS bouquette, and ready to be used in "Amigas".
And I seriously doubt that it would take a lot of "power" and "focus" for Hyperion to port their OS; isn't OS4 made with HAL and easy portability in mind (or is it tightly tied directly to certain hardware throughout the entire OS, like AmigaOS3.1)? The Pegasos1 and the Terons are quite similar (I would guess that OS4 would run on a Pegasos1 after a weekend of work, perhaps less), and MorphOS's migration to Pegasos II went fairly smooth, AFAIK.
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But what do you actually want to see from this? OS4 on pegasos? OS4 integrated into MorphOS? MorphOS intergrated into OS4? Do you see them as 2 separate products? WHAT THE "#"#!"# DO YOU WANT? :lol:
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@TMHG
Actually, my post was nothing to do with this actual thread, it's an observation I've held for some time without commenting about it. As to insult, it wasn't an insult, but rather an observation, and one that I've toned down quite considerably.
I've yet to read anything balanced from you. Phrases like "Provided that Hyperion plays ball in a sensible way, everyone will win " compound that. Hell, just take a look at your avatar, it's straight out of one of BBRV's "satirical" writings *cough* propaganda*cough* on WrongPla.net.
I'd be quite happy to have a good intelligent discussion, but I honestly don't think that'd happen.
Anyway, I've said it now, you'll hear no-more on the subject from me.
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uncharted wrote:
bloodline wrote:
Unsure about what? He has made it very clear that he has no intention of stopping development, and is even perpared to reduce the licence fee that Hyperion whould have to pay for the Amiga name.
You are just spreading FUD about Bill Buck :-P
Ambigous statements about the outcome from the case, or "The Hyperion/Eyetech OS 4.0 Agreement will be declared "null and void and of no force or effect." " ring a bell?
Do you think the exclusive OS4 on AmigaONE deal is actually good for anyone other than Eyetech?
How can extending OS4's supported platforms cause potential buyers of OS4 to be unsure?
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restore2003 wrote:
But what do you actually want to see from this? OS4 on pegasos? OS4 integrated into MorphOS? MorphOS intergrated into OS4? Do you see them as 2 separate products? WHAT THE "#"#!"# DO YOU WANT? :lol:
Personally, I don't really care. :-o All I want is the success and secured development of the Pegasos hardware (and any incarnations of it), and I guess that an Amiga based on Pegasos and OS4 might help(?).
Integration of OS4 into MorphOS, or vice versa, has never been the plan (or even wanted) AFAIK. Hyperion is doing OS4 and they have done it their way. Even if the end-user will hardly notice, I'd say that there are a few but fundamental differencies between OS4 and MorphOS, making it hard to just squeeze them together.
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If this comes through the way it should, it will be the most positive thing that happened to the Amiga community for many years. It looks like Hyperion might find themselves to be standing in front of a serious decision soon. Provided that Hyperion plays ball in a sensible way, everyone will win (Hyperion, Genesi, the customers, the resellers, the developers -- everyone in the community), and we will have unity again!
Unity? you are joking right?
BBRV is not interested in unity, never has been and never will be.
The only "unity" he has ever been interested in as far as the Amiga is concered is simply controlling the whole shebang, plain and simple.
I am only speculating of course, but the way I see things, it might very well come to that - Hyperion might have to make a choice. No-one has to love each other to be able to do business you know, but it would help if *some* efforts were put into *building* bridges instead of burning them down as soon as there is a chance ...
And now you talk about burning bridges, yet here is Genesi sueing Amiga Inc. Here is Genesi making claims of forcing Hyperion to tow the line about OS4 not to mention eyetech, all the while they could very simply have license the pegasos and had OS4 the easy way.
Dont bullshit me about the cost, I know what the cost was, and in comparison to what has happened, to the cost the community has paid, it is negligable.
The reason all of this has come to pass in my opinion is simple.
Gateway were going to do nothing, everyone knew it, and BBRV took advantage of the situation and bought the QNX base planned a new system that would run alod AMiga software whilst also upgrading current users to a new technology level.He HAD the entire community to himself.
This in and of itself was fine and dandy, the only problem was that although the roots of this was based surely on an Amiga foundation it was not Amiga.
The along come Amino buys the patents rights licenses the rest makes a plan for the comeback of the Amiga.
The problem boiled down to simply Amiga Inc as unwilling to place its future into the hands of what is now Genesi, allowing them to dictate hardware and OS and the direction it goes whilst bearing the Amiga name, and BBRV unwilling to give up/share the Amiga Community, which he requires to make his plans a success.
As there can only be one kingpin in this little community BBRV has simply decided he is going to be it, he was before, why should he allow Amiga Inc. to take over. So instead of working WITH the Amiga community he has strived ever since to tear it apart until there is no one that can oppose him as BEING the king pin, and thats all there is to it.
BBRV wants to be boss of the whole shebang, and his pride simply cant stand that Bill McEwen has come in and messed up his plans.
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It has to do with Genesi`s intentions on getting an agreement with Hyperion etc....
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Isn't BBRV actually two people?
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Well yes BBRV is actually two people, yet Bill Buck seems to talk for both of them so often that it is pretty much synonomous with just Bill Buck.
Personally, it seems like Bill Buck has not the courage to stand on his own two feet but needs the crutch of RV.
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IonDeluxe wrote:
Personally, it seems like Bill Buck has not the courage to stand on his own two feet but needs the crutch of RV.
Talk about contrived ad hominems... I think I'll follow Red's example and settle in on a couch to watch what happens next.
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IonDeluxe wrote:
Well yes BBRV is actually two people, yet Bill Buck seems to talk for both of them so often that it is pretty much synonomous with just Bill Buck.
Personally, it seems like Bill Buck has not the courage to stand on his own two feet but needs the crutch of RV.
You're single, we can tell :lol:
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@ uncharted
My strong view is that none of the "Amiga Inc Trio" members has been very sensible during the last years. That's my view, and I am entitled to it.
If I would make a choice (which I actually have done), I'd choose the Pegasos over the Teron solution anyday. I have my own reasons that back up my choice. I make no secret of those reasons. I guess that makes me "biased" in your eyes, but I have never claimed to be some unbiased "journalist". I am a happy Pegasos/MorphOS user! :-)
Yet, I actually *try* to discuss things from lots of angles (actually quite often), and my Pegasos II review was quite balanced if you ask me. I am not stupid, I am not employed by anyone in this community -- I am a free thinking individual, just like so many others here! So your nonsense about "propaganda" and such is totally uncalled for, and seems to only reflect some views of yours that any other people that argues *against your own* point of view are nothing but blind "camp-trolls" or such.
About my avatar, OK, it is (purpously) sarcastic. Actually, it shouldn't even be here now. I only used that for a short period of time, I then replaced it with my traditional "xoops" avatar, but when the new xoops2 engine was launced it came back for some reason.
For once I was actually in a quite upset mood when I made that avatar, it was after the discussion on ANN about the (for no reason) narrow focus of the upcoming Gothenburgh show.
But since you noticed it, let me explain the avatar: The avatar is divided into two areas, one red and one blue. The reds are to the left as usual (:-P). The cross in the background symbols religion (for some strange reason :-P). It's also burning which symbols the "cultish fanatism", the "racism", and the "apartheid policy" I regularly sense from some directions, "there is only one *real* solution, the pure must be kept separated from the filthy infidels, etc" (that ANN thread was the trigger in this case). You also see another thing in the background, the cool Pegasos ice cube. The text "Fire and Ice" is contradicting, but it's "talking" and it also binds the two areas togehter, because as much as some people would like it to be different *we are bound together*. We are all Amigans. In the centre, to even more symbolize unity, there is this Jesus figure, embracing OS4 and dressed in a blue cloth "for balance".
But as I said, this shouldn't be here. I removed it before, and I will remove it again.
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@ IonDeluxe
Unity? you are joking right?
BBRV is not interested in unity, never has been and never will be.
Genesi would benefit a great deal from a united community. Genesi wants as many developers as possible to the Pegasos hardware. That is why they brings so many OS's to the Pegasos, to attract as many developers as possible. That's why they want OS4 running on it too, because many developers (and early adopters) in this talanted community makes that OS their first choice. But Amiga Inc felt that this is what they had paid money for (some 3000 developers or so to go with the Brand), and they wanted to *own* them exclusively. They launched FUD campains against Genesi products, empty legal threats were made about "illigal code", etc, everything to scare people away from Genesi. This was the beginning of a split. But then Amiga Inc failed in everything they tried to do, while at the same time the competitor succeeded. Amiga Inc lost ground in the community and Genesi gained ground. If Amiga Inc couldn't have it all, they would have to divide it to save and protect what could be saved for themselves. "It's not Amiga" and other mantra's was repeated over and over again by some very well known loud Amiga Inc supporters (we all know who). When they were loosing grounds in the traditional Amiga community forums, the same people ran off to create amigaworld.net, this virtual Berlin wall, to even further separate "the pure part" of the community from the rest. This is not working for unity IMHO, this is working for the benefits of Amiga Inc.
-
bloodline wrote:
Do you think the exclusive OS4 on AmigaONE deal is actually good for anyone other than Eyetech?
You could flip that around on Genesi with regards to MOS very easily. And no I'd rather see a free market with regards to both OS and hardware, with consumers being offered the chance to choose the combination that suits them. But I sincerely don't believe that is the motivation here, IMHO Genesi have inherited some of P5's old hang-ups.
How can extending OS4's supported platforms cause potential buyers of OS4 to be unsure?
That isn't what the statements say (what the statement says and means is 2 diffent things).
The first talks about the licence to the Operating System without specifically naming AmigaDE, that's bound to be a source for confusion.
This second mentions voiding the agreement, which again is vague, not mentioning what exact agreement. The only agreement publically known is the Amiga/Hyperion/Eyetech agreement that was signed at the WOASE show, this agreement includes Hyperion's licence of the AmigaOS code. So is BBRV saying that Hyperion's licence of the code is void? See? More possible confusion.
There are definately elements of uncertainty and doubt around these statements.
I can't see anywhere in those statements where the number of platforms for OS 4 will be extended.
-
@TMHG
See PM.
-
That's why they want OS4 running on it too, because many developers (and early adopters) in this talanted community makes that OS their first choice.
If thats true, why dont they simply get a license for Os4 like they originally intented to do? Why do they always think their are something better than other companies?
Dont get me wrong, I would like to see Os4 on pegasos, too. But not in the way that bill buck takes over amiga and the only official "amiga" will be the pegasos and there will be no A1s anymore. Maybe bbrv is afraid of the microaone because it might be as cheap as or cheaper than the pegasos and so he wants to stop it.
-
I try not to participate in threads with this topic on any
forum these days but why would Genesi want to pay a company
that threatened them, discredited them, spreaded fud
ALL over them etc etc etc?
Why do people always tend to forget what Amiga Inc have done
in the past?
BTW, I really hope that this story will not be turned into
a Genesi VS Hyperion war...
-
uncharted wrote:
Trying work out the Amiga-Genesi situation is like an erection, the more you think about it, the harder it gets :-)
WOAH! how did i miss THIS reference????? :lol: :lol:
I completely agree, btw. although, i think you meant it was "difficult", not harder. :idea:
this entire situation has always given me a headache! Fighting is never good. And i'm not talking about civilized disagreements!
but all the hating and mudslinging is a giant turn-off!
I wasn't paying much attention for the last few years because I was busy with my career, but this past year I've begun to notice and i'm amazed there are any amiga users left!!!
this crap has just GOT to stop. As i said before, we need to look out for each other and stop hoping for a savior. Do you really think the head of ANY company really cares about YOU personally????
I know no one gives a rat's A55 about me!
we can only care for each other. so lets get on the ball and do the right things. if you can program, do something great for other amiga users. That's why I write those HowTo's. I will never get anything ($) for doing them, but it's the right thing to do!
isn't THAT the "Amiga way"???
-
cecilia wrote:
uncharted wrote:
Trying work out the Amiga-Genesi situation is like an erection, the more you think about it, the harder it gets :-)
WOAH! how did i miss THIS reference????? :lol: :lol:
I completely agree, btw. although, i think you meant it was "difficult", not harder. :idea:
this entire situation has always given me a headache! Fighting is never good. And i'm not talking about civilized disagreements!
but all the hating and mudslinging is a giant turn-off!
I wasn't paying much attention for the last few years because I was busy with my career, but this past year I've begun to notice and i'm amazed there are any amiga users left!!!
this crap has just GOT to stop. As i said before, we need to look out for each other and stop hoping for a savior. Do you really think the head of ANY company really cares about YOU personally????
I know no one gives a rat's A55 about me!
we can only care for each other. so lets get on the ball and do the right things. if you can program, do something great for other amiga users. That's why I write those HowTo's. I will never get anything ($) for doing them, but it's the right thing to do!
isn't THAT the "Amiga way"???
Well said.
-
rayt wrote:
If thats true, why dont they simply get a license for Os4 like they originally intented to do?
As I understand it, to get the license Genesi would have to meet demands by Amiga, Inc. that they thought were unreasonable. I heard that Amiga said they would only allow AOS on the Pegasos if it was sold without MorphOS. I can't remember where I heard this, though, so take it with a big grain of salt.
But my guess is if it were a simple matter to just pay a license fee, then that might have happened already, or at least you'd hear noises about it being a future prospect. People don't usually let dealing with unsavory characters stand in the way of making money (and I mean this both directions, from the perspectives of the companies involved here). But keep in mind who has a vested interest in the status quo and who would get burned if the Pegasos could be bought with AOS. At least one of the principals in the Amiga triad would get badly hurt, and could probably stop any port of AOS in the present situation.
Another factor motivating bbrv could be the idea that the current Amiga, Inc. management just deserves to go down, something many people believe, it seems. Reading Bill McEwen's statements in the court documents, it's hard for me to figure how the guy could ever be taken seriously. He has only a slim grasp of the facts even of his own company, and demonstrates an amazingly flippant attitude considering the situation he's in. Apparently investors and would-be business partners have gotten the same impression. I agree that there are probably egos at least somewhat in the way on both sides, but after hearing how various people have been rebuffed by Amiga management when trying to do business, it isn't at all surprising to me that Genesi never reached an agreement with them about AOS on Pegasos.
-- gary_c
-
This will be my first and last reply to this thread, so you can direct flames and incessant blather to >NULL:
1.If you are of the opinion that this is over, you're wrong.
2 If you believe this nonsense of Buck's regarding AmigaOS, you both live in the same ethereal fantasy world.
3. The sleeping giant is about to awake.
4. Stay tuned for the rest of the show. (I've got my popcorn, how's your stash? Oh, and make sure you get extra butter. ;-)
See you (my friends) in the usual places.. :-)
-
cecilia wrote:
this entire situation has always given me a headache! Fighting is never good. And i'm not talking about civilized disagreements!
but all the hating and mudslinging is a giant turn-off!
I wasn't paying much attention for the last few years because I was busy with my career, but this past year I've begun to notice and i'm amazed there are any amiga users left!!!
this crap has just GOT to stop. As i said before, we need to look out for each other and stop hoping for a savior. Do you really think the head of ANY company really cares about YOU personally????
I've been saying this for years (yes literal years). But Amiga users tend to take any opportunity to get behind a banner and blindly follow someone or something. The level of hatred and zelotry about is astounding.
I begged for co-operation in the beginning, and have hoped for peace all along, but it has become plain that it's all driven by egos, and no-one is (wo)man enough to admit "well actually I was wrong". Many people tend to blame either Bill Buck or Amiga Inc. for the situation, but frankly it's something that has been going on for years, long before either entered the scene.
The only good thing about the current split is that AOS 4 is closer to what I want than MOS (yes - I've tried both before deciding, no - I don't give a flying about "the name"). I'm not sure if I'd of liked OS4 based on MOS, but then again I'd of liked the opportunity to of found out.
I know no one gives a rat's A55 about me!
Amiga.org loves you :-)
we can only care for each other. so lets get on the ball and do the right things. if you can program, do something great for other amiga users. That's why I write those HowTo's. I will never get anything ($) for doing them, but it's the right thing to do!
isn't THAT the "Amiga way"???
That's the spirit, and it's appreciated. How about writing a "How to stop being a total plum?", there are many indivduals (of all opinions) that could really do with it. :-D
I've tried to GFX stuff for the community over the years, I've done web-design and other stuff. My current project is a new IRC client (freeware of course).
More lines of code/information/help, than lines of bile is what's required. Anyone want to take up the challenge?
-
HMetal that's some interesting news...if A-INC actually is about to
start "rockin' it RSN"...then that's great...more power to ya
guys, and good luck.
-
HMetal wrote:
3. The sleeping giant is about to awake.
Which one of them, fleecy or mcbill? Wake me up in just another two weeks then ...
:roll:
-
lol, this cant be true, or? :-o
http://www.flyingmice.com/cgi-bin/squidcgi/mbthread.pl/amiga/expand/98324
-
@takemehomegrandma
Your recitation of events is anything but accurate.
What will happen next?
1. Genesi will enforce the "upgrade" clauses to AmigaOS 4.2 and beyond.
2. The Hyperion/Eyetech OS 4.0 Agreement will be declared "null and void and of no force or effect."
3. We will sublicense under the Agreement and the ruling.
We are so tired of some of the "idiots" in this community.
It is time to end all this.
R&B
BBRV wishes to void the contracts between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion/eyetech.
Once that it done he want s to force both of them to use his hardware, and if they dont then hyperion gets no lisence and niether does Eyetech get OS4.
"Uniting" is done through convincing people to choose to work together from a number of options. What Bill Buck desires to do is force these companies into doing things his way or not at all. This is called Tyranny.Nor is this "co-operating" with the community as he has said he wants to do many many m,any times over.
If Amiga Inc couldn't have it all, they would have to divide it to save and protect what could be saved for themselves
Hmm the contract with Hyperion and Eyetech. Eyetech gets the hardware, Hyperion gets the OS and Amiga Inc gets thier AA player.Everyone gets a piece of the pie.
This is called sharing.
"It's not Amiga" and other mantra's
here is another : "fast Amigalike experience"
and another : "functional amigalike operating system"
When they were loosing grounds in the traditional Amiga community forums, the same people ran off to create amigaworld.net, this virtual Berlin wall, to even further separate "the pure part" of the community from the rest. This is not working for unity IMHO, this is working for the benefits of Amiga Inc.
Hmm so people leaving a place(be it in cyberspace or real life) to avoid persecution, harassment, constant attacks upon thier beliefs and choices are likened to racists.I wonder what the Jews would say about that.
I find that the people who sream loudest about descrimination of any form are most often those perpetrating descrimination.
This is not working for unity IMHO, this is working for the benefits of Genesi.
Bill Buck's own words just reinforce and support what I have been saying all along, he does not desire unity, he does not want cooperation he wants the entire community, and he will attempt to crush, or drive off anyone that stands in his way.
-
@restore2003
No, not true. DaveP is a fantastic debater however, which
is probably why some people get riled up and post sh!t about
him. :)
-
@ IonDeluxe
Whatever man, whatever. It doesn't matter what you (or me) say here anyway.
Whatever happens, I'll just sit back here and watch it happen now! :-)
-
IonDeluxe wrote:
Once that it done he want s to force both of them to use his hardware, and if they dont then hyperion gets no lisence and niether does Eyetech get OS4.
I know this is kind of offtopic, but how come it's OK for a consumer to be forced to use specific hardware, but it's tyranny when a business must do so?
Hell, I'd be just as happy to have hardware removed from the picture entirely.
-
T_Bone wrote:
I know this is kind of offtopic, but how come it's OK for a consumer to be forced to use specific hardware, but it's tyranny when a business must do so?
Is that supposed to be ironic, or are you really saying that?
Do you have an AmigaOne? No? Then how come you are forced to use a specific hardware? NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO BUY AN AMIGAONE. It's an offer. Take it, or do not take it. Apple does it the same way. Even Microsoft (or does Windows XP run on a 68k Amiga? I don't think so).
You might want to ask Apple why they have chosen to go this way and produce OS X for Apple-branded machines only. The point is that the producer of a software decides which platform it runs on.
Hell, I'd be just as happy to have hardware removed from the picture entirely.
And then what? Run it on thin air? I'm sorry to tell you, since it obviously escapes your attention, but computer programs usually *do* run on hardware, so it is kind of difficult to remove it from the picture.
Alternatively, you are one of the deluded few that think that Operating systems just port themselves to a different platform. I can assure you that this is wrong (I've tried putting the OS 4 CD next to my Mac and guess what - nothing happened).
So pray, how do you intent to "have hardware removed from the picture entirely".
-
HMetal wrote:
This will be my first and last reply to this thread, so you can direct flames and incessant blather to >NULL:
1.If you are of the opinion that this is over, you're wrong.
2 If you believe this nonsense of Buck's regarding AmigaOS, you both live in the same ethereal fantasy world.
3. The sleeping giant is about to awake.
4. Stay tuned for the rest of the show. (I've got my popcorn, how's your stash? Oh, and make sure you get extra butter. ;-)
See you (my friends) in the usual places.. :-)
Somewhat cowardly, dropping flamebait and then running.
:-?
-
Rogue wrote:
Do you have an AmigaOne? No? Then how come you are forced to use a specific hardware? NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO BUY AN AMIGAONE. It's an offer. Take it, or do not take it.
Maybe Hyperion will recieve an offer soon too? :-?
-
T_Bone wrote:
I know this is kind of offtopic, but how come it's OK for a consumer to be forced to use specific hardware, but it's tyranny when a business must do so?
There seems to be this often repeated hypocrasy from certain quarters.
Hyperion and Eyetech are evil and bad because they tie users to a certain piece of hardware, and yet please remind of all the platforms MorphOS is available for. What's that? Just Pegasos?
If you are going to complain about hardware/software tyranny, at least complain about everything, rather than who it is you have a personal problem with.
-
Even Microsoft (or does Windows XP run on a 68k Amiga? I don't think so).
Microsoft Windows XP does run on most "IBM compatible" machines, not just "one specific model"
You might want to ask Apple why they have chosen to go this way and produce OS X for Apple-branded machines only.
Becouse that way they can put higher price tag on the product. If they had chosen X86 instead of PPC, there would have people asking "Why can't I just install it on cheaper IBM compatible PC?" and eventually there would have been something, like "MacOnLinux" for standard PC's ages ago.
But just lately they have noticed, that they can't get more user/developerbase unless they lower the prices, and they've considered doing X86 version of MacOS X afaik.
-
takemehomegrandma wrote:
Maybe Hyperion will recieve an offer soon too? :-?
Maybe. I don't see the relevance, though.
-
Jupp3 wrote:
Microsoft Windows XP does run on most "IBM compatible" machines, not just "one specific model"
AmigaOS runs on most "Amiga compatible" machines, not just "one specific model".
Point being?
Becouse that way they can put higher price tag on the product. If they had chosen X86 instead of PPC, there would have people asking "Why can't I just install it on cheaper IBM compatible PC?" and eventually there would have been something, like "MacOnLinux" for standard PC's ages ago.
Oh year, that is a good, qualified reasoning :-) LOL!
But just lately they have noticed, that they can't get more user/developerbase unless they lower the prices, and they've considered doing X86 version of MacOS X afaik.
That's the usual dream-on type of rumour frequently used by x86 addicts. Fact is there is an x86 version of Darwin, but that hasn't concinved Apple to go for the x86 market.
Face it, the producer chooses the hardware. If they feel they prefer PowerPC, it's what they do. As long as people are buying (and obviously they are) this is the way it works. All "they could sell so much more on x86" is pure speculation.
-
uncharted wrote:
T_Bone wrote:
I know this is kind of offtopic, but how come it's OK for a consumer to be forced to use specific hardware, but it's tyranny when a business must do so?
There seems to be this often repeated hypocrasy from certain quarters.
Hyperion and Eyetech are evil and bad because they tie users to a certain piece of hardware, and yet please remind of all the platforms MorphOS is available for. What's that? Just Pegasos?
If you are going to complain about hardware/software tyranny, at least complain about everything, rather than who it is you have a personal problem with.
Who said I was complaining about a specific party? It's an acrossed the board statement. I don't like being told what hardware to use, especially when the choice is severly limited.
That wasn't aimed at the AmigaOne, or any other product specifically. I feel that way about AmigaOS, Windows, MacOS, PalmOS, you name it. It's a perfectly reasonable comment.
But anyway, my point wasn't even that... my point was that someone made a comment that it would be "tyranny" if a business were given a limited choice of specific hardware, yet as consumers it's hunky dory to have the same choice.
Although now I have another analogy... consumers can be yelled at saying "TAKE IT OR LEAVE IT" but when a business is told the same thing it's tyranny.
But I digress... the point I was trying to build up to is that 1000+ of the people in the community were concerned about the hardware licensing, for fear of the same kinds of things that seem to be happening right now between Genesi and Amiga Inc. Obviously this was a reasonable fear (especially in hindsight), as legal action, (founded or not), is being threatened.
You may not agree with my dislike for this hardare license situation, but you certainly can't say it's an unreasonable fear, especially in light of current events.
-
Rogue wrote:
And then what? Run it on thin air? I'm sorry to tell you, since it obviously escapes your attention, but computer programs usually *do* run on hardware, so it is kind of difficult to remove it from the picture.
Alternatively, you are one of the deluded few that think that Operating systems just port themselves to a different platform. I can assure you that this is wrong (I've tried putting the OS 4 CD next to my Mac and guess what - nothing happened).
So pray, how do you intent to "have hardware removed from the picture entirely".
When my daughter was 3, and you tried to make her go somewhere she didn't want to go, she'd have this defensive reaction where she'd let her arms and legs go limp, so that you couldn't lead her, pick her up, or in any other way move her.
You've just done the same thing in conversation.
I'm sure you know what I meant, but you disagree, so instead of ignoring me, or discussing it, you'd rather pretend I'm stupid as a defensive measure. It's unnecessary, I'm not insisting you have to agree with me.
-
uncharted wrote:
Hyperion and Eyetech are evil and bad because they tie users to a certain piece of hardware, and yet please remind of all the platforms MorphOS is available for. What's that? Just Pegasos?
There is one little but important difference in here, and it's called honesty.
Genesi have no problem admitting that they alone decide on which HW MorphOS will
run, and they don't hide the fact that they make that desicions only for their own best.
No hiding behind bizzare licences, when in reality it is all a matter of getting max. profit
with min. spending (pretty much what Roque said from a different angle).
-
@ Kronos
Genesi have no problem admitting that they alone decide on which HW MorphOS will run, and they don't hide the fact that they make that desicions only for their own best.
Amiga also have no problem admitting that they alone decide on which HW AmigaOS will run. I mean when they say "everyone who wants OS4 on their HW must get a license from us" its the same as when they say "we decide on which HW the os will run".
No hiding behind bizzare licences, when in reality it is all a matter of getting max. profit
with min. spending (pretty much what Roque said from a different angle).
I have always asked myself whats so "bizarre" about the os4 license that genesi didnt sign it. I might be wrong but afaik Eyetech is not a bigger company than Genesi and they had no problems with the same license, so what was the reason? You seem to know.
-
@rayt
First of, how do you know that Eyetech has the same licence that
Genesi could obtain ? Their A1-licence predates the OS4-licence
by about 2 years, and didn't they claim to have exclusive rights
just a few days ago ?
Now, you might go back to to April 2002, and read all the
contradicting statements about what is in the licence (it is free,
we payed for it, it a different one to the A1-licence, only "A1s" will
run OS4, .......), add to it the reseller that tried to obtain such a
licence, only to be ignored by AInc, and the thin reasonigs for
it (copy-protection can be just efficient with just a (USB) dongle,
consumer protection is a joke when AInc is involved, and support
is till today far better at Genesi than it is at Eyetech).....
Not enough ? Well remember Ben H. ranting that he couldn't get a
Peg everytime when he was asked about OS4 for ? Often even
without being asked. Remember how fast that changed to "they
must get a licence" when he was offered a (free) Pegasos, and
even "Genesi must pay for the port" later on ? I somehow doubt
that Eyetech is financing/paying OS4-development.
All strong evidence that there never was licence to be obtained for
Genesi.
Dunno bout Amiga(inc), but there certainly more than a few "reds"
that go screaming around that Genesi would be preventing OS4
from getting ported to the Peg. Most of them 100% unlikely to
ever touch a Pegasos ......
-
Rogue:
BBRV and Genesi are seeking to work WITH Hyperion. Its obvious to anyone that comes to Amiga boards such as this that this "war" is out of hand. This market is so tiny and fractured already without all the drama.
Hyperion has worked admirably on OS4. Wouldnt you want to really open up your market and support as much HW as possible? This means 2 things for you:
1. more $$
2. more support for OS4
Everyone involved needs to set their egos aside and move forward imho...
@Hmetal
You are truly living in a dream world.
magnetic
-
uncharted wrote:
I know no one gives a rat's A55 about me!
Amiga.org loves you :-)
well, some, anyway. (Thanks!) But That is sort of my point. We seem to be among the few to see how important it is to depend on each other and ignore the big shots.
How about writing a "How to stop being a total plum?", there are many indivduals (of all opinions) that could really do with it. :-D
hm, that's harder than the Gfx tutorials I do :lol:
especially if I have to use terms like "plum".
I do think ideas like AROS are really interesting (and bloodline didn't pay me to say this) :roflmao:
and I'd love to see amiga on hand-held devices. cel phones, and PDA's and all that stuff.
And I've seen again and again that the people who get things done are the ones that realize that nothing will happen unless THEY do it.
-
I do think ideas like AROS are really interesting (and bloodline didn't pay me to say this) :roflmao:
I'm sure we can work out some sort of payment! :-D
-
bloodline wrote:
I do think ideas like AROS are really interesting (and bloodline didn't pay me to say this) :roflmao:
I'm sure we can work out some sort of payment! :-D
mmmmmmm, my thoughts are running WILD!!!!!
:crazy: :roflmao:
-
Maybe you could give her robot a brain? It's been acting strangely, running in circles, etc... :-)
(http://www.amiga.org/uploads/cavt4033e32e27123.jpg)
(http://www.amiga.org/uploads/cavt40314d7f4bb0d.gif)
-
Kronos wrote:
There is one little but important difference in here, and it's called honesty.
Ooooh I wouldn't open up that can of worms here, especially in light of recent revelations. :-o
That's a lame excuse. It doesn't even make sense. I'd expect better from you Kronos.
Genesi have no problem admitting that they alone decide on which HW MorphOS will
run, and they don't hide the fact that they make that desicions only for their own best.
No hiding behind bizzare licences, when in reality it is all a matter of getting max. profit
with min. spending (pretty much what Roque said from a different angle).
So how does that make them any better, they're still forcing consumers to a limited hardware/software choice. You're still lambasting Hyperion/Eyetech/Amiga for exacly the same thing that Genesi do. Just because they act as one entity rather than seperate companies, is no reason why they should get let off. Like I said, that doesn't make sense. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems you're grasping at straws.
Frankly Genesi as missing sales opportunities, and squandering the advantages they've had in the market (are they even still in it? it's very confusing), by ignoring Software sales. Publishing MorphOS to weary, long-time AmigaOne users who've been waiting for OS4 for ages, would probably of been be worth their while, especially as MOS was already running on the Teron. There's a stack of Classic PPC users waiting for a PPC OS too. Hell, there's even the chance of Peg2 sales steming from this ("Try this, now imagine it on better hardware"). Very very dumb IMO
Likewise there's a section of people who want cheaper hardware with OS4 that Hyperion are missing out on (although, to be fair, their choice is not totally within thier control)
-
T_Bone wrote:
Who said I was complaining about a specific party? It's an acrossed the board statement. I don't like being told what hardware to use, especially when the choice is severly limited.
My mistake, there has been an awful lot of what I described recently, I mistook your post for that.
-
uncharted wrote:
So how does that make them any better, theyHW.'re still forcing consumers to a limited hardware/software choice. You're still lambasting Hyperion/Eyetech/Amiga for exacly the same thing that Genesi do.
And now try to find a single quote from me (younger than 2 years)
were I am "lambasting" the trio-infernale about that ? I have
nothing against it, only in these stupid attempts to blame Genesi
for the trio's desicion.
Offcourse I will shoot through the holes in their logic whenever
they bring that licence up, but I'm that last to protest if/when
Hyperion officially declare that there won't be an OS4-port due to
much work for something that will have a hard time competing
with the OS that allready came free with the HW.
Is Genesi loosing sales opportunities ? Probraly, but would these
outweight the extra work for making an UBoot MOS, trying to fix/
patch the Articia&VIA-bugs in SW ? And how many Peg-sales
would they loose this way ?
Thats the reason why there is no MOS for the A1 right now, and
Genesi had no problem saying it so.
-
T_Bone wrote:
Maybe you could give her robot a brain? It's been acting strangely, running in circles, etc... :-)
(http://www.amiga.org/uploads/cavt4033e32e27123.jpg)
(http://www.amiga.org/uploads/cavt40314d7f4bb0d.gif)
That's not the organ I was thinking of!
(OH! did I say that???)
:roflmao:
-
cecilia wrote:
That's not the organ I was thinking of!
(OH! did I say that???)
:roflmao: [/quote]
:nervous:
-
cecilia wrote:
T_Bone wrote:
Maybe you could give her robot a brain? It's been acting strangely, running in circles, etc... :-)
(http://www.amiga.org/uploads/cavt4033e32e27123.jpg)
(http://www.amiga.org/uploads/cavt40314d7f4bb0d.gif)
That's not the organ I was thinking of!
(OH! did I say that???)
:roflmao:
no, me neither. :-P
-
cecilia wrote:
T_Bone wrote:
Maybe you could give her robot a brain? It's been acting strangely, running in circles, etc... :-)
(http://www.amiga.org/uploads/cavt4033e32e27123.jpg)
(http://www.amiga.org/uploads/cavt40314d7f4bb0d.gif)
That's not the organ I was thinking of!
(OH! did I say that???)
:roflmao:
By the looks of that "hardware" on your robot, I don't know what kind of a match he'd be for it! :lol: :lol: :hammer:
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The fact that you imply that the "giant" has been sleeping all this time doesn't exactly overwhelm me with confindence. :nervous:
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T_Bone wrote:
cecilia wrote:
T_Bone wrote:
Maybe you could give her robot a brain? It's been acting strangely, running in circles, etc... :-)
(http://www.amiga.org/uploads/cavt4033e32e27123.jpg)
(http://www.amiga.org/uploads/cavt40314d7f4bb0d.gif)
That's not the organ I was thinking of!
(OH! did I say that???)
:roflmao:
By the looks of that "hardware" on your robot, I don't know what kind of a match he'd be for it! :lol: :lol: :hammer:
Celia can "Exterminate" me any day!! :lol:
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Roj wrote:
The fact that you imply that the "giant" has been sleeping all this time doesn't exactly overwhelm me with confindence. :nervous:
Reminds me a lot about that old fable of a Boy who cried out Wolf...
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Roj wrote:
The fact that you imply that the "giant" has been sleeping all this time doesn't exactly overwhelm me with confindence. :nervous:
Yea, I know..
Sh*t... Ray's in kind of a bad place. Amiga Inc has to be into him for AT LEAST $100 Grand by now. What else is he supposed to do? Give up? I really hope the Giant wakes up at least long enough that he gets what's owed to him.
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@ Kronos
First of, how do you know that Eyetech has the same licence that Genesi could obtain ?
In Fleecys Q&A #12 (question 5) he says: "There is nothing to negotiate. Amiga Inc currently has two product lines, the AmigaOS and the AmigaDE. If a third party wishes to use or licence these then they should contact us and they will be given the same deal as anyone else. That third party will then have to meet the same criteria as every other third party in terms of sales, marketing and support in order to guarantee a quality Amiga certified product reaches the consumer."
Their A1-licence predates the OS4-licence by about 2 years, and didn't they claim to have exclusive rights just a few days ago ?
Hmm this confuses me ab bit, too. Because I remember a press release from Ainc/Elbox where they claim to have an Os4 license for the shark.
But Fleecy also says in question 5 of Q&A #12: "AmigaOne is a brand name that is exclusively licenced to Eyetech Ltd so Genesi or any other third party cannot use it without either agreement from Eyetech or via building a system using the AmigaOne boards."
So Eyetech only have the exclusive rights to the name "AmigaOne". So genesi only would have to give it another name than amigaone. So there would be no problems for an Os4 Board from genesi named Pegasos, or Pegasos Amiga, or Amiga sos, or whatever.
Now, you might go back to to April 2002, and read all the contradicting statements about what is in the licence (it is free, we payed for it, it a different one to the A1-licence, only "A1s" will run OS4, .......)
I dont know if it was 2002 or earlier but I remember a news item which said that both the bplan board (was not finished at the time I think) and the eyetech product (was also not "finished") will be the first licensed boards for AmigaOs. In my opinion, the future looked much brighter at that time and I wonder how it became so worse like it is today. I dont know any details about the negotiations between the two companies but I think its too easy to blame Ainc for everything.
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ALot of you people have missed the point when I mentioned the word "tyranny"
Right now we have the choiceof an Aone or pegaosos, we have the choiceof Pegasos or Aos. Both hyperion and eyetech have the choiceof the harware these will support.
Bill Buck intends to remove that choice from both the companies AND the consumer and call it "uniting" when in actual fact it is FORCING, and that is the "Tyranny" I was referring to.
Bill Buck has REFUSED point blank in personal email correspondence with me(which I made public with his full knowledge) to ever lisence OS4 and/or get Amiga certification. He quoted the price to me which was far less than he has spent on lawyers. The only part he mentioned that did not have a price tag was the development of a new board(as the pegasos does not have a dongle) whis is mostly irrevelantdue to the fact he had to redevelop his boards anyway.
No, he wants the only choice to be his boards his way and to call his machines Amiga's for free.
Thats what this entire court case has been about from day one, depite the fact he wants to work "with" the community.
/sarcasm on
yeah sure
/sarcasm off
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IonDeluxe wrote:
Right now we have the choiceof an Aone or pegaosos, we have the choiceof Pegasos or Aos. Both hyperion and eyetech have the choiceof the harware these will support.
Bill Buck intends to remove that choice from both the companies AND the consumer and call it "uniting" when in actual fact it is FORCING, and that is the "Tyranny" I was referring to.
Ok, that's a fair point. I can see where Hyperion and Eyetech would feel pushed around, but to the user who's planning on buying an AmigaOS4 machine when they come out, not much has changed really, just the name of the person making some of the decisions.... but if the customer doesn't get to choose his own board anyway, he's not likely going to care who makes that decision.
...that's if it even happens. I think it could make it to court, but I don't think it'd result in anything. I don't know.
The worst I see happening is the exclusive license becoming non-exclusive, I don't see it being voided.
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@T_Bone
" but to the user who's planning on buying an AmigaOS4 machine when they come out "
What do you mean when they come out? Mine will be here in a couple of days. Hmm, I smell a rip off coming.
Chris
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@rayt
I won't go into detail, but fleecy is pretty much the last guy I would
believe ......
The actual facts and actions do speakmuch louder than words.
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Hi Ion, what exactly "point blank" did you want to discuss?
In the meanwhile, we posted here:
http://www.flyingmice.com/cgi-bin/squidcgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/98376.shtml (http://www.flyingmice.com/cgi-bin/squidcgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/98376.shtml)
If you want to comment further please be so bold right here.
Looking forward to all your intelligence and consideration in this regard!
:-)
Bill Buck
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There is nothing to dicuss with you. You made me aware of your "requirements" to enter any discussion and they are quite simply exhorbidant.As such they will never be met and hence there is nothing to discuss.
Of course if you decided to reverse your current course of action then there might be, but we all know there are only 3 chances of that happening.
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@IonDeluxe
BBRV wishes to void the contracts between Amiga Inc.
and Hyperion/eyetech.
How can you "void" contracts which may have already been
"void" from the outset? Aside from which, I would assume
(from my "armchair" analysis) that a judge is most likely
to decide what is and is not "void".
Once that it done he want s to force both of them to use his
hardware, and if they dont then hyperion gets no lisence and
niether does Eyetech get OS4.
That's your 'hypothesis' of the situation...
This is called Tyranny.
No, it's called "business". Ultimately the entire point
is that customers have products, and someone makes money.
Everything else is simply a means to an end. That's how things
operate in this world. ;)
No, he wants the only choice to be his boards his way and to
call his machines Amiga's for free.
Once again your hypothesis...and even if, so what?? Is
the Teron somehow holier than other hardware available,
that only it alone is worthy? :P
"The Name" was simply a product label for a dead 80's computer
platform...I seriously think some people overestimate it's
worth in the market (and I highly doubt BB is one of them).
Besides...'Amigas-4-Phree' sounds soooo much like a late 90's
era school charity drive...
There is nothing to dicuss with you. You made me aware of your
"requirements" to enter any discussion and they are quite simply
exhorbidant.As such they will never be met and hence there is
nothing to discuss.
Honestly dude I don't understand your reasoning. Have you ever
by chance read Sartre's "No Exit"? Anyhow, as long as OS4 is
still available 'soon'...and runs on something other than a
shoe...what is there for you bitch about?
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--edit--
Pardon, double post. :)
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Kronos wrote:
And now try to find a single quote from me (younger than 2 years)
were I am "lambasting" the trio-infernale about that ? I have
nothing against it, only in these stupid attempts to blame Genesi
for the trio's desicion.
If that is the case, why are you defending people who do with your lame "honesty" excuses? Argument for argument's sake?
Offcourse I will shoot through the holes in their logic whenever
they bring that licence up, but I'm that last to protest if/when
Hyperion officially declare that there won't be an OS4-port due to
much work for something that will have a hard time competing
with the OS that allready came free with the HW.
Really now? That's interesting because that wasn't what has been said/insinuated so far. This little offshoot discussion has been about people tying software to hardware through agreements, not once until now has anyone mentioned anything about competing products. In fact the general focus of past discussions has been on Eyetech apparently overcharging people for hardware and enforcing/abusing it's "OS4 monopoly".
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@BBRV
where are the free MorphOS versions for BlizzardPPC & CyberstormPPC?
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QuikSanz wrote:
@T_Bone
" but to the user who's planning on buying an AmigaOS4 machine when they come out "
What do you mean when they come out? Mine will be here in a couple of days. Hmm, I smell a rip off coming.
Chris
You're talking about an "AmigaOne." I was talking about the final product, the software and the hardware, not the Earlybird version sans Operating System. That's what I meant by "an AmigaOS4 machine, " a machine running AmigaOS4.
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@-D-
get with the program bud.
Nothing I have said ishypothisisit is what Bill Buck himself has said.
Furthermore, the contract cannot be "voided" by a judge until another party (read: Bill Buck) brings it to the court.Nevertheless it is what he himself said he would do.
As for the rest, you are simply not up to date. Also note that Mr B.Buck has had opportunity to refute anything I have said as he replied directly to me after I said those thing yet he did not.
Why does it matter?
As I have said several times, at the moment both the companies and the consumers have a choice of hardware and of operating system.Bill Buck proposes to deny all of us, the consumers the businesses the developers of that choice.
I find his reasons dubious at best and hid methods even less reputeable, and this is the person you want as dictator of the future of the Amiga platform?
No, it's called "business". Ultimately the entire point
is that customers have products, and someone makes money.
Everything else is simply a means to an end. That's how things
operate in this world. ;)
Maybe the world does work this way, that does not mean that it should work this way.I find that the practises of business leave a huge amout to be desired from a moral standpoint.Not long ago it was standard practise to dump toxic wastes into the water catchment areas worldwide, that does not make it right.
You are obviously not up to date with this discussion.
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@IonDeluxe
Number 1: Genesi' reseller requirements are very reasonable.
Number 2: You seriously need to work on your negotiating skills. Called the head of a company out in a public forum is not going improve your positioning to strike a deal.
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1. Who cares.That has absolutely nothing to do with what I am saying.He is attempting to monopolize the Amiga market. Thats one of the reasons I want amiga to succeed, because there is no monopoly unlike the x86 world.
2.Who is trying to strike a deal?
I have already stated such a thing is impossible due to exhorbidant requirements that cannot be met.Why is calling out the "head of a company" any different than calling out anyone else.Does being the head of a company give him extra rights and privledges?
3. Nothing you have said is relevant to the discussion
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@IonDeluxe
You've missed the point somewhat... if you read around I'm sure that will help.
The way the world should work is stupid... when your washing machine breaks down, the manufacturer doesn't say, "it should work", and then ignore you... no they they take note of the fact that is doesn't work and do something about it...
Beagle 2? no problem at all, it should work... therefore it does. :-D
And don't try and pull the Moral story... theer is only one truely moral person on this board and that is "That_punk_guy" and I'm sure even he has been immorral on occation.
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IonDeluxe wrote:
1. Who cares.That has absolutely nothing to do with what I am saying.He is attempting to monopolize the Amiga market. Thats one of the reasons I want amiga to succeed, because there is no monopoly unlike the x86 world.
2.Who is trying to strike a deal?
I have already stated such a thing is impossible due to exhorbidant requirements that cannot be met.Why is calling out the "head of a company" any different than calling out anyone else.Does being the head of a company give him extra rights and privledges?
3. Nothing you have said is relevant to the discussion
I feel like I'm in the biazzaro world. Whatever.
Enjoy!
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uncharted wrote:
If that is the case, why are you defending people who do with your lame "honesty" excuses? Argument for argument's sake?
I'm defending noone, I'm attacking those that want to blame Genesi
for something that is purely on AInc's/Hyperion's account.
the general focus of past discussions has been on Eyetech apparently overcharging people for hardware and enforcing/abusing it's "OS4 monopoly".
Let's see, Terrasoft planned 299$+tax&shipping, and yes those people
know how to make a calculation. A1s sell between 600 and 900Euro
(+tax&shipping), so it is quite clear that someone is taking some
Euro more than it is common in retail-buisness. Wether it is Eyetech or
an extreme price for the name AmigaOne, is beyond our knowledge,
but it is quite clear that these 2 have rather little interest in having OS4
on another (cheaper, and probraly better) HW, as Eyetech make 0.0
on it, and the bigger part of the OS4-revenue is ending in Hyperion's
pocket.
Hyperion on the other side may be happy, that all those "buy Peg now,
run OS4 on it later"-users have been kept in limbo, and therefore
haven't grown used to MOS in the last 12-16 months.
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@BBRV
where are the free MorphOS versions for BlizzardPPC & CyberstormPPC?
Yeah, you cant be the big hero in amigaland if you not care about the classic users..
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rayt wrote:
@BBRV
where are the free MorphOS versions for BlizzardPPC & CyberstormPPC?
Yeah, you cant be the big hero in amigaland if you not care about the classic users..
Then there are no heros in Amigaland.
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bloodline wrote:
Then there are no heros in Amigaland.
True. At least until now. Both "sides" have announced their os for classic ppc amigas. One side planns to sell it, while the other side want to give it away for free. One side has given a release date, while the other has not. Both sides claim that their Operating systems already run on classic ppc hardware. So I hope to have 2 native ppc Os on my amiga soon although one would be already enough.
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One side has given a release date
Cool what's the release date..? /me warms up his Blizzard.
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IonDeluxe wrote:
1. Who cares.That has absolutely nothing to do with what I am saying.He is attempting to monopolize the Amiga market. Thats one of the reasons I want amiga to succeed, because there is no monopoly unlike the x86 world.
"Monopolize"? "Tyranny"? WHO?
Hold on, let me get this straight:
AInc have a product, AmigaOS. They have no hardware, they have no hardware designs, they have not commissioned anyone to make hardware, they have no influence over hardware design or the hardware market. Yet they're trying to tell us from whom we're allowed to buy our hardware (which currently is from a vendor that has about as little to do with hardware as AInc). Yet all words about "quality assurance", "compatibility", "sales potential", "capability to deliver", "support", "protection", "low prices" and "antipiracy" prove to be even more painfully obvious bullshit and outright lies each time they and the sole licensee have opened their mouths. Yet one "certified", marketed and sold hardware product has already been discontinued and more have had their warrantys expired while waiting for the OS that it's supposed to be certified compatible with. Yet they have already brushed off one apparently much more appropriate license applicant for better and cheaper hardware.
You call this "sharing" and "cooperation".
Genesi have two products, an OS and hardware, just like Apple, or Commodore Amiga of yore. They design their own hardware, they decide on the future of their own hardware, and they sell their own hardware.
IF[/u] Genesi somehow came into possession of AmigaOS (but they seem to hope for a position to sublicense it), then you call their hypothetical[/u] sales restriction of AmigaOS to only Pegasoses "tyranny"?
Yeah, whatever.
2.Who is trying to strike a deal?
I have already stated such a thing is impossible due to exhorbidant requirements that cannot be met.
Yes, and don't forget that nobody is interested in such a deal to begin with. AInc doesn't recognise that they have to offer something attractive in return for the licensing cash. It doesn't offer hardware vendors any compelling advantages, and even in the hypothetical case that someone would be interested, then I think it'd still be better for us customers (and thus AmigaOS) to also have the option to buy the exact same hardware elsewhere in whatever fashion we prefer.
Or were you talking about the "Tyranny" and not the "Sharing" this time? :P
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Cool what's the release date..? /me warms up his Blizzard.
It was end of 2003 for the free version of Morphos. It think it was meant as some "christmas present to the community" if I remember correctly.
So bbrv if youre reading, release morphos for classic ppc like you promised and there might be a few less amiga users that cant stand you.
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And don't try and pull the Moral story... there is only one truely moral person on this board and that is "That_punk_guy" and I'm sure even he has been immorral on occation.
Aren't I a moral person as well? :-D
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Darth_X wrote:
And don't try and pull the Moral story... there is only one truely moral person on this board and that is "That_punk_guy" and I'm sure even he has been immorral on occation.
Aren't I a moral person as well? :-D
...and Darth_X as well :-)
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[color=0000FF]"Genesi calling . . . Genesi calling!"[/color]
(http://www.heretical.com/British/joyce.jpg)
Hmmm! About every 3 months (or so) strange Forum Utterings appear to attempt to disrupt Amigans' morale!
Ah! THIS is the work of the Twenty-First Century version of LORD HAW-HAW (http://www.heretical.com/British/joyce.html)
Don't pay TOO much heed!
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vortexau wrote:
Hmmm! About every 3 months (or so) strange Forum Utterings appear to attempt to disrupt Amigans' morale!
Ah! THIS is the work of the Twenty-First Century version of LORD HAW-HAW (http://www.heretical.com/British/joyce.html)
Don't pay TOO much heed!
3 months? I thought the oracle interpretation sessions took place every two weeks over at The Portal.
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@Ion
You've got my vote man (or gal?) in what ever you're running for.
Really, I like your strait shooting. Your posting composition could use some polishing though.
Not that anyone cares, but I just thought I'd add my avatar to what seems to be a very shallow avatar gene pool in this thread. I'm not an expert, nor do I care to follow the topics in as much detail as many of you. I'm just a simple guy with work to get done and money to spend on computers. Here's how I see my simple world...
1. I love my old Amiga and its OS, but the company and those who created that Amiga are gone.
2. I think Amiga Inc has been a poorly run joke. I also never liked or barely understood their Hardware/Software licensing model. Sell me the OS and let me go install it where I will, even if that's on an x86. I know that's a posion pill for some. Sorry, too bad.
3. I like Hyperion. I've conversed with different reps from Hyperion over the years and have a high opinion of them.
4. I've read many posts by the person or persons claiming to be BBRV on moobunny, amiga.org, ann.lu and in other misc forums and news releases. I understand this to be Bill Buck of Genisi. I don't like the tone, content, or attitude of these messages. I would never think of buying anything from whom ever post them or their company, even if it was branded "Amiga".
5. I don't know enough about Eyetech to form and opinion, If Hyperion likes them then I probably will too.
6. I might guess that this is the senerio running in someone's mind.....
Amiga Inc might fall, Hyperion and Eyetech could somehow inherit things Amiga. Genisi doesn't what that to happen so let's do what it takes to gain Amiga IP if Amiga Inc. does fail. Hey, and why not stamp out AI even faster if possible. :-)
7. Truth is I will buy OS4 to support Hyperion, then probably put it on a shelf because I don't like the MB's available to install it on. MicroATX is promissing though. I'm more likley to support a coldfire card to keep the old amiga going while doing any serious work on Win boxes.
8. I would like to see Hyperion receive all things Amiga. Then maybe it would have a future. If you do, please don't change your name to Amiga, it's a curse. Stay Hyperion and sell AmigaOS. I feel this is exactly what BBRV wants to stop.
That's my simple opinion with less than half the facts. But I needed to kill a few minutes anyway.
Thanks for reading. Now back to my 5000 MS workstation network, because few of the players
involved with Amiga can get a clue. BTW, I still say AmigaOS desktops would make the perfect
companion to Linux servers, IF they ever arrive in sufficeint numbers.
Plaz
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bloodline wrote:
Then there are no heros in Amigaland.
well, there really are a few! If I may be so bold, Kermit is one. Right there you have one person (and company, really) that has stayed in the frey, come hell and high water - and we've had plenty of that!
anyone who's ever uploaded a program on aminet is a hero. however small it may be. just look at how HUGE aminet is.
we are each other's hero's.
let's ignore the idiots. they contribute nothing.
(you are MY hero, bloodline!) :-D
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1. Who cares.That has absolutely nothing to do with what I am saying.He is attempting to monopolize the Amiga market. Thats one of the reasons I want amiga to succeed, because there is no monopoly unlike the x86 world.
Note that the HW in X86 world is commoditized and Linux (X86) support is reasonably satisfactory for enterprise market.
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whabang wrote:
ottomobiehl wrote:
@Markus_Bieler
Your sig is freaking me out man. :-)
That's nothing! :-D
(http://www.danasoft.com/sig/whabang.jpg)
Ahhhhhh! :crazy: :python:
-
Is it me or is cecilia spinning faster now? Oh no bloodline what have you done?
Chris
-
I agree with cecilia. It's the armchair developer, artists, and composers that are the heros.
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@Targhan,
Me too. I was on a somewhat voyeristic tangent.
-
IF Genesi somehow came into possession of AmigaOS (but they seem to hope for a position to sublicense it), then you call their hypothetical sales restriction of AmigaOS to only Pegasoses "tyranny"?
No, I call forcing Hyperion and eyetech to use pegasos tyranny when they have other hardware available.Especially when Hyperion owns AOS4.
The rest of what you have said is opinion so I will agree to disagree.
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Targhan wrote:
I agree with cecilia. It's the armchair developer, artists, and composers that are the heros.
And the bedroom computer game progremmer nerds. :D
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@plaz
I agree with much of what you have said there, a couple things to note are:
AOS is supposed to be hardware agnostic once they reach AOS5.0 which means it will run on the pegasos and x86 alike, however it will be native to the AmigaOne(or whatever its called if we get that far) and as such will have a performance advantage on it.
The current hardware, bot A1 and pegasos is nothing special in my view, never has been, but it IS new harware for the Amiga community, it IS a huge step forward from what we had in many respects, and I am sure it will move forward quickly if things go well to be competative with current technologies.
I have no problems with Genesi, the product they produce is quite good, and they have many talented and honourable people employed/developing for them. My problem is only with the CEO.
-
--minor edits
@IonMane
Furthermore, the contract cannot be "voided" by a judge
until another party (read: Bill Buck) brings it to the court.
Wait just a minute, you are the one that said BB is going
to void the contract himself, not me. And anyway that sounds
ludicrous, I could bring rocks to the judge all day long, and
nothing would be 'voided'...i.e there has to be something which
meets the requirements of 'voiding' in the first place.
Nothing I have said ishypothisisit is what Bill Buck himself has said.
You said:
No, he wants the only choice to be his boards his way and to
call his machines Amiga's for free.
and
Once that it done he want s to force both of them to use his
hardware,
I must have overlooked something, becasue I can not find
where BB states he wishes to call anything "Amigas", although
there are hints pertaining to AOS being made to run on *the
Pegasos*.
Also, I cannot find any reference to BB wanting to "force"
OS4 not to run on anything which is resold by Eyetech, only
that their (Eyetech and Hyperion's) written agreements with
A-INC are void, due to the contentions within Genesi's (or
rather Thendic's) own contract with A-INC, which predate
both those with Eyetech/Hyperion and A-INC (so obviously, new
negotiations would be necessary, and I don't see how that's an
astonishing revelation).
Aside from all that, your statement about "forcing them to use
his hardware" is somewhat silly, as if Hyperion specifically
*wants* to code 'exclusively' for the Teron, becasue it's just that
terrific?!?
get with the program bud.
As for the rest, you are simply not up to date.
You are obviously not up to date with this discussion.
Do you have any links to share? Which, by the way, is the
"preferred" method to educate someone on the subject
matter (as opposed to your above three comments).
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by rayt on 2004/2/26 17:34:18
Quote:
Cool what's the release date..? /me warms up his Blizzard.
It was end of 2003 for the free version of Morphos. It think it was meant as some "christmas present to the community" if I remember correctly.
So bbrv if youre reading, release morphos for classic ppc like you promised and there might be a few less amiga users that cant stand you.
just to put it like this , i dont belive there is an ready to release morphos for classic, their pegasos mos is ofcourse the one prioritized and i have full understanding for that, same goes for os4 for classic too.
anyway genesi complains about how slow hyperion are to make os4 , but then if you look under the bonnet then u will see that morphos is infact a huge lag aswell.
if morphos ever comes for classic (except for the 0.4/0.x) well thenit will be the only one i will ever use since i am pro os4 and i keep beeing a red troll and i certainly aint shocked or stunned about whats happening at moobunny atm (kemp vs genesi , nowee , coyote flux and the many others who where fooled into a trap or tried to be anyway , this is just the stuff i expected from a guy like bill buck, a car salesman!)
-
-
@ Plaz
7. Truth is I will buy OS4 to support Hyperion, then probably put it on a shelf because I don't like the MB's available to install it on. MicroATX is promissing though. I'm more likley to support a coldfire card to keep the old amiga going while doing any serious work on Win boxes.
Hyperion was under the impression that x86 was a bad idea, because people would have access to x86, so they'd run Windows instead and buy Windows software.
I agree with you. If someone has a need for Windows, then they will run Windows, irrelevant to their Amiga. I don't know how Hyperion think that the only sales they will make are to people who have no access to an x86 machine. Most of us already DO have access to an x86 machine!
Intentionally making a product less usefull to the costomer doesn't eliminate the need for the lost functionality, the customer will still have this need and fill it, even if it means a sale for the competitor.
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T_Bone wrote:
@ Plaz
7. Truth is I will buy OS4 to support Hyperion, then probably put it on a shelf because I don't like the MB's available to install it on. MicroATX is promissing though. I'm more likley to support a coldfire card to keep the old amiga going while doing any serious work on Win boxes.
Hyperion was under the impression that x86 was a bad idea, because people would have access to x86, so they'd run Windows instead and buy Windows software.
I agree with you. If someone has a need for Windows, then they will run Windows, irrelevant to their Amiga. I don't know how Hyperion think that the only sales they will make are to people who have no access to an x86 machine. Most of us already DO have access to an x86 machine!
I need to run windows, most people do. It doesn't mean I like it. I really really want OS4 but there's not a chance in hell I'm paying the price for the hardware I need to run it.
Right now, AROS is my only solution. If the above reasoning really is why hyperion don't want to do a x86 port, then that's very sad, because they are completely and utterly wrong.
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Kronos wrote:
If that is the case, why are you defending people who do with your lame "honesty" excuses? Argument for argument's sake?
I'm defending noone, I'm attacking those that want to blame Genesi
for something that is purely on AInc's/Hyperion's account.
--SNIP!--
[/quote]
Well, it looks I was right, argument for arguments sake, nothing to do with what was being talked about.
Then you take one sentence from the final paragraph, ignoring what I was saying as a whole, and open up another attack.
I don't expect you to agree with anything I say, but you could at least extend the courtesy of reading what I say. I just won't bother in future.
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@Martyn
Its not just that. Hyperion can't be expected to write drivers for, and support, all the different motherboards out there. Even if they just support a small subset, there are bound to be revisions, and "almost compatible" boards with similar chipsets, and when OS4 doesn't work properly, they'll blame Hyperion.
Also, Amiga software had already started migrating to PPC. It would be stupid to change tactic again and have to support THREE architectures!
There are various other good reasons, too, and a search of all the Amiga forums will bring them up. Its a very boring, tired and irrelevant argument.
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cecilia wrote:
Then there are no heros in Amigaland.
well, there really are a few! If I may be so bold, Kermit is one. Right there you have one person (and company, really) that has stayed in the frey, come hell and high water - and we've had plenty of that!
anyone who's ever uploaded a program on aminet is a hero. however small it may be. just look at how HUGE aminet is.
we are each other's hero's.
let's ignore the idiots. they contribute nothing.
(you are MY hero, bloodline!) :-D [/quote]
In my book anyone who gives up thier own time to do something for the greater good of the Amiga "community" (even if it's only a subset) is an AmigaHero(TM)*
AmigaHeros(TM) I salute you!
Hmmn, I feel a graphic coming on :-D
*Sadly there are those who negate this by then going off to the forums to piss over other peoples work and generally spread negativity. :-(
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I C da forums never cease to amaze me.
:-D
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I C da forums never cease to amaze me.
:-D
whoops...found a glitch
please remove this duplicate post, thanks.
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There are various other good reasons, too, and a search of all the Amiga forums will bring them up. Its a very boring, tired and irrelevant argument.
I've read all those threads, it's just the arguments don't hold water. But I'm here to bash Hyperion, I still think they're doing a great job and wish them all the best. At least with 4.0 the code will have become pretty portable (so I can have hope for the future ;-) ).
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Martyn wrote:
I've read all those threads, it's just the arguments don't hold water. But I'm here to bash Hyperion,
:lol: :lol: :roflmao:
I'm pretty sure that was a typo!
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@-D-
your ability to twist words is remarkable, yet it still does not change the facts.
The Court will now add the "upgrade" amendment to the current ruling and in so doing render subsequent agreements to our November 2000 agreement void. This is not something we are doing against OS4.0, it is an action we will take against Amiga Inc. We can then license Hyperion for OS4.2 (and beyond) and thus 4.0 can be then released. Hyperion will have less to pay to us than they would have had to pay to Amiga Inc. We can even sell to Eyetech a non-Articia Pegasos board at a much lower price (and they will not have to pay Amiga Inc. anything). Perhaps, everyone will get along better. Frankly, they will have little choice, but we do not intend to handle them badly, but fairly and in the best interest of our potential customers. Amiga Inc. cannot stop us because of the ruling. It will all be pretty one-sided from this point on.
My emphasis.
As the license is validated under US law Hyperion will not have any recourse unless Amiga Inc. gets our written consent, which will not happen. However, we will sublicense (as we can under the Agreement) Hyperion for less than they would have paid Amiga and the customer/community will benefit from lower prices. Of course, Amiga Inc. could appeal but it is not likely given their general disregard for the Court.
my emphasis
As i said, force.
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As i said, force
Hmm. "Force" Hyperion to sign a license with Genesi rather than Amiga, Inc. but under better terms. "Force" Eyetech to consider a much better board deal than they have now. "Force" AmigaOS customers to pay less for functionally the same thing than they have available with the AI arrangement. Doesn't really sound all that bad to me.
The bitter taste for some, of course, is that it's Bill Buck at the controls, but are we discussing personalities, or technology and business?
-- gary_c
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Hmm. "Force" Hyperion to sign a license with Genesi rather than Amiga, Inc. but under better terms. "Force" Eyetech to consider a much better board deal than they have now. "Force" AmigaOS customers to pay less for functionally the same thing than they have available with the AI arrangement. Doesn't really sound all that bad to me.
Better terms? thats purely speculative.
Better board deal...the same
Pay less fo the same funtionality still pure speculation.
That Bill Buck intends to thereby remove choice and competition from the market for both consumers and the companies involved is fact.
That does not sound good to me.Nor is he "working with the community" as he so often likes to tout.From the word go he could have lisenced OS4 for the pegasos gotten it certified and given the community a real choice AND the ability to name the pegasos an "amiga" but he cried poor.
Maybe this is true for a company that also can't pay it's employees, but would have been cheaper than lawyers.
The bitter taste for some, of course, is that it's Bill Buck at the controls, but are we discussing personalities, or technology and business?
The two are not seperable, it is the personality that controls the business, and hence the business is no more reliable than the person running it, hence I will never do business with Genesi until BBRV no longer has any stake in it.The same holds true for a significant portion of the community, and if Bill Buck's stated plan comes to fruition, this is just another way the community will be hurt.
I heard a rumour that Gary Hare was taking over as CEO of Genesi, so perhaps there is hope.
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gary_c wrote:
As i said, force
Hmm. "Force" Hyperion to sign a license with Genesi rather than Amiga, Inc. but under better terms. "Force" Eyetech to consider a much better board deal than they have now. "Force" AmigaOS customers to pay less for functionally the same thing than they have available with the AI arrangement. Doesn't really sound all that bad to me.
The thing is that, according to Bill Buck, [color=0000FF]Frankly, they will have little choice[/color] but to agree to these "better terms". It is by now well established that Bill Buck operates under the precept that "Business is War", so what kind of a deal would such a type of aggressive businessman offer to someone who's only choice is "take it or leave it"?
In theory, if Hyperion felt the deal was unfair they could go straight to Amiga Inc to try for a better one, but unfortunately Bill Buck has stated that [color=0000FF]Hyperion will not have any recourse unless Amiga Inc. gets our written consent, which will not happen.[/color]
Bill Buck has decided that it's His Way Or The Highway. We've all seen how well that worked for x86. What worm do you want today?
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Hi IonMane,
Thanks for playing, but I really have no problem with
"the facts" - they make perfect logical sense from my
standpoint, and from the standpoint of a business wishing
to protect it's interest and property. As far as what some
may be reading into these facts, only time will tell.
This much we do know (from the facts):
That Eyetech or Hyperion will end up feeling "forced"
is your speculation, and not fact. Where does it say
that Eyetech will also be prevented from marketing
it's current line of machines?? Also, that Genesi will
ever label anything they sell "an amiga", is, at the
present, your speculation - and not fact.
Setting up legit agreements and contracts after the fantasy
ones have been decreed null by a Judge isn't "force"...it's
called standard, legal business procedure.
"If" events play through as we can rationally predict, all
parties involved should wind up ahead...which sounds fair
enough to me.
Anyhow, IMO this issue is being taken WAY too serious...as
opposed to "the contract says x, the Judge decreed y,
therefore we're headed toward z...and we'll try to make
it good (read: profitable) for everybody."
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Continuing to twist my words into something I have not said will not further this discussion at all.
You have decided to trust Bill Buck at his word, fine thats your choice.
I don't nor will I ever trust his word as he has proven himself to be vindictive, concerned only with his own personal vendetta and personal agenda that has nothing to do with the well being of the community, despite how he tries to cover it up.
You cannot go past the fact that if he wanted to have a united community he could have had his machine amiga certified and had OS4 on it the same as eyetech has done.
There would then have been no split.
there would have been true choice instead of two diametricly opposed competitors that both happen to run some old Amiga software
The developers of both sides could have developed for both machines instead of splitting thier resources between the two.
He could have increase his own marketbase as well as that of Hyperion.
This frivolous and costly court case could have been completely avoided.
And we would probably be talking about a promising future and been writing about something constructive for a change.
As it stands I will do everything in my power to make sure people can consider both sides and make up thier own mind. I wont allow him to further poison this community without making an effort to stop it, or at least limit the damage.
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@IonDeluxe
Your logic is flawed beyond believe ....
1. Are you really so naive that you believe that Genesi
could have gotten a licence at the same terms as Eyetech,
when all evidence speaks against it ?
2. Of what use would such a licence be, when OS4 still isn't
ready 1.5 years after the initial MorphOS1.0 ?
3. Why is someone refusing to sign a dubious(at best) licence splitting the community, and not those that put it
up in the 1st place (and for no sane reason) ?
4. The split never was about the HW, it was about the SW(OS).
One side had an OS ready (to some extent) while the other side
only dreamed about stuff that would never come (like the
orginal intent-based OS4), or was falling for madup release
dates.
5. The split didn't happen when BB came into the picture, it
happened when certain individuals did all in their might to
stop MOS from becomming the official OS4. Big suprise that
some of these later took on their own OS4-project .....
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@Ion
Continuing to twist my words into something I have not said will not further this discussion at all.
You have decided to trust Bill Buck at his word, fine thats your choice.
OK, perhaps I've been a bit of a smartass...and for that
I do apologise...however, I haven't intentionally tried to
twist your words. Regardless, it's obvious we view the
situation from drastically different perspectives.
Please be aware, though, that for me this scenario has
nothing to do with trusting (or not trusting) anybody,
but rather my opinion from the available information.
If you look at it from the angle of "contracts, judges,
business procedure"...there's nothing really fantasically
ridiculous about it, it's just "how things go"....or at
least that's how I see it.
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Better terms? thats purely speculative.
Better board deal...the same
Pay less fo the same funtionality still pure speculation.
Of course; all any of us can do is speculate based on what we've read or heard. Works the same for all sides.
That Bill Buck intends to thereby remove choice and competition from the market for both consumers and the companies involved is fact.
People who want AmigaOS on PPC have exactly one hardware choice now, so that won't change. Hyperion has exactly one motherboard for AOS right now, so that won't change. How do you see choice being reduced? The only changes are that Amiga, Inc. is out of the equation, but it more or less deserves to be, in the opinion of many people. And that the Teron board gets replaced by a Pegasos. Are Amiga fans really all that excited about MAI Teron boards that much already? People criticized Genesi for "splitting the market." Now, with this idea that the market is consolidated, they're going to get criticized for that, too? Strange (and illogical) that some people feel they're right complaining about it both ways.
Nor is he "working with the community" as he so often likes to tout.
Well, if you realized the cost of all of those subsidized and free boards, all the traveling to shows, etc. that now the company is even getting flamed for (for some reason), you might reconsider that. Apart from the fact that there are winners and losers in the business world and Amiga, Inc. seems destined to join the losers, I don't think Genesi has really failed to work with elements of the community, as a rule. Please be more specific, if you want to pursue this point.
From the word go he could have lisenced OS4 for the pegasos gotten it certified
From what I understand, this was not a realistic possibility given the conditions Amiga, Inc. wanted to place on Genesi, involving Genesi's internal information and so on.
The same holds true for a significant portion of the community
Well, I don't know how well you can speak for others. In any case, the number of people who want to boycott Genesi for personality reasons is no doubt very small compared to the potential market including both "amiga" and areas beyond such as Linux and embedded systems and so on. So I don't think anyone's going to be losing sleep over these guys. I know I wouldn't, nor would anyone else trying to run a business.
this is just another way the community will be hurt.
Sorry, but I think you're projecting your emotionalism. A market is rarely hurt by a better product at lower cost. Buyouts and consolidations happen. Companies grabbing market share happens. The benefit or harm to the consumer depends on the product details and support details. I know for a fact that Genesi has been very supportive of developers, insofar as conditions allow. But the negative attitude of people such as yourself is a distraction. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying Genesi doesn't need to sharpen up its management and Bill Buck couldn't use a little more diplomacy and forethought in his dealings with people at times. But consider the flames he's had to face ever since deciding to dare market a product on hallowed Amiga, Inc. territory. Most people, certainly less hard ones, would have given up long ago. Now think about "fewer choices": an Amiga market led by severely indebted and essentially dead Amiga, Inc.(and don't blame Genesi's lawyers for that -- the facts of the timing don't support that claim), dependent for hardware on outsiders who have nothing to do with the market traditionally and are considered by many to have basic technical flaws in their products etc etc. That'd be a sad state.
I heard a rumour that Gary Hare was taking over as CEO of Genesi, so perhaps there is hope.
Well, rumor has it he would have been good for Amiga; unfortunately he had a look around and realized the futility there. I imagine he'd be a valuable addition at Genesi as well.
-- gary_c
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Well I wrote A nice long post adressing everything mentioned, but as fate would have it, my account got timed out.I can't be bothered to type it all out again so I will be brief.
Mr Buck has set a very poor standard of behavior, and I don't care that this is "only business" it affects real people in a very real way, and as such I will hold them, and thier CEO's just as accountable for thier behaviour as any individual, maybe even moreso.
My point of view is not based on speculation as you may like to believe, it is based on the fact of what Mr Buck has said publicly on various forums, message boards, community portals and perasonal correspondance.
This proposed action directly affects the 1000+ people that have already purchased an AmigaOne, they will be denied AOS4 if Bill Bucks plan comes to pass.
Will he offer them a replacement system that does run OS4? I severely doubt it, nor could he supply them with those machines in the current situation I believe.
Yeah, this is a business decision, just goes to show he does not care a whit about what we want, what the companies involved want, he is interested only in what appears to be a personal vendetta and lining his own pockets.
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but as fate would have it, my account got timed out
That drives me crazy too, sometimes. Sometimes I do a select-all and copy just in case the session times out or the browser crashes, if I'm working on something long.
This proposed action directly affects the 1000+ people that have already purchased an AmigaOne, they will be denied AOS4 if Bill Bucks plan comes to pass.
I must have missed where Bill Buck said that. Could you give us the URL please.
Yeah, this is a business decision, just goes to show he does not care a whit about what we want
About what who wants? Demand is running ahead of supply of Pegasos boards, so that shows some of "us" are getting products they want. If his description of future events is correct, people will still be getting AOS4 on PPC. I still don't know who you're speaking for exactly. Obviously if someone wants a Bill McEwen and Fleecy certified product or a Teron board, they'll be out of luck. Otherwise, I don't see a problem.
he is interested only in what appears to be a personal vendetta and lining his own pockets.
I wouldn't be surprised if there's something personal involved, given the background of Amiga, Inc.'s claims about MorphOS, etc. As for lining his pockets, I'm sure that'd get a laugh at his place, about just what year he'll start seeing a personal return on what's been spent so far. If a person with money has the goal of making even more money, there sure are a lot easier and more predictable ways of doing it than trying to bootstrap a new computer platform, wouldn't you agree?
-- gary_c
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This proposed action directly affects the 1000+ people that have already purchased an AmigaOne, they will be denied AOS4 if Bill Bucks plan comes to pass.
Will he offer them a replacement system that does run OS4? I severely doubt it, nor could he supply them with those machines in the current situation I believe.
You have got to be kidding, right?
I have no love of Mr Buck, but he has demonstrated a clear willingness to treat his customers fairly. Amiga Inc. have not, I have been ripped off. I have had my own personal dreams crushed by the pathetic individuals called McEwan and Fleecy. They have done nothing to help anyone, not even thomeselves.
You are living in dream world. Wake up!
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ok, this (http://www.flyingmice.com/cgi-bin/squidcgi/mbmessage.pl/amiga/98451.shtml) is the only thing I've ever seen on mooooobunny
that is true and honest!
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IonDeluxe: Somehow I think you are way overreacting on this.. There is no proof Buck will ever be able to archive all that he's been posting on Moobunny. Ok, they win this case, but it's still a long way on what he's been planing.
Besides.. If he (they actually) does it.. Then he's shown to be much more capable on organizing things than every and all people around Amigaone+Os4 together. So it might even lead something good.