Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: eliyahu on June 30, 2015, 07:46:10 PM
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@thread
looks like jens has a wiki page (http://wiki.icomp.de/wiki/Amiga_reloaded) on his upcoming 'amiga reloaded' project that he announced at the amiga 30th anniversary show in amsterdam this past weekend. sounds very interesting:
Much like the C64 Reloaded, the Amiga Reloaded will be a new Amiga motherboard using original MOS/CSG chips. It does not directly compare to any existing Amiga mainboard, but if you want a comparison basis, then an A1200 is probably the closest match. However, there are differences that also make it very much "not A1200".
lots more information available on the wiki page (http://wiki.icomp.de/wiki/Amiga_reloaded) including details on what case to fit it into, CPU options, chipset, expansion options, etc.
-- eliyahu
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Linky no work. :(
Edit: here you go. :) wiki.icomp.de/wiki/Amiga_reloaded (http://wiki.icomp.de/wiki/Amiga_reloaded)
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@Oldsmobile_Mike
whoops! thanks for the heads-up. link is now fixed. :)
-- eliyahu
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Had me until:
"The Amiga Reloaded will not have any CPU. We know that there are many flavours of Amiga fans out there, and each of them defines "Amiga" with their own standards. While some of you will primarily use less CPU-demanding programs, others want the highest possible performance. This means that no matter what type of CPU we would choose, it would be the wrong choice for many customers. We therefore let the customer make the decision: Amiga Reloaded has an A1200-compatible CPU slot where a CPU card must be installed to operate the board. Compatibility of A1200 accelerator boards will be the same as with the ACA500: We will guarantee that our ACA12xx cards work (except for the old ACA1230 type), and we'll also do our best to make the popular Blizzard cards work. However, there will be no product support for operation with non-iComp branded CPU cards.
The choice of no CPU on the mainboard has two main advantages: For one, you don't have to pay for a CPU that you don't use anyway. Second, it gives you the possibility to build a very low-cost Amiga with the forthcoming ACA1221(EC) cards. "
Also what about Mediators etc, it also appears you need to buy another Indivision to work with the new board.
Subway USB no clock port??
Why not increase the chip RAM to 8MB as we all know that this is possible, anyway not looking good.
Really after something I can replace my poor A1200 motherboard with.
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Had me until: (snip)
Ha, I thought that was one of the best perks! One of my issues with the ACA500 (besides that it's an ugly external thing), was that it came with a wimpy processor that needs to be augmented with an extra accelerator to be of any use. Why bother? I like that a user can "add his own CPU" now. To each their own, I suppose! :)
I like stories, I wonder how Jens came across the motherload of old C= era AGA chips?
Video output sounds very modular. Wonder if somewhere down the line someone will develop additional options? Hummm... ;)
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I'm worried about Network. I can't imagine amiga without a Network. PCMCIA NICs has disadvantages, but there are plenty of them and they are cheap.
No cpu is good choise, as I wouldn't be happy with anything less than 040
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I guess it makes sense. The CPU, Fast RAM and USB I was hoping for could simply be added via the planned 28MHz 68020EC card.
That would just leave the SD/FF on my wish list which is covered by this option:
Flickerfixer output board
Another alternative is the special version of Indivision AGA MK2, which can be installed as the second alternative: This will give you a VGA and an HDMI output for the Amiga Reloaded. The price of this option will be lower than the price of the Indivision AGA MK2 product for the A1200, as this one does not have to deal with the space constraints of the original Commodore board.
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I have at least one empty A1200 shell sure there's another around somewhere so it would be great if I wanted to build a new system from scratch since it will be cheaper than getting an A1200 motherboard and building up a system based around that.
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I will pre-order this and have it next to my regular A1200, no onboard CPU dosn't matter for me.
Will probably put it in a A500 case, quite easy to find and for nice prices :)
Would want 8MB chip ram and the possability to toggle to 2MB via jumper/switch but I take what I get ^^
Probably will fit an 030 card in it until Apollo team releases a A1200 expansion :)
I like that the Kickstarts are in flash memory, open up a lot of posability to try out my own modified kickstarts without the hassle of burning new EPROMS.
Neat witha a new Amiga mainboard so I like this!
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Per recent discussions, the Flash ROM option means Amigakit will not carry/sell this item. But I will just order directly from icomp.de myself.
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Per recent discussions, the Flash ROM option means Amigakit will not carry/sell this item.
(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/004154565/2328393006_huh_what_answer_3_xlarge.jpeg)
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I guess it makes sense. The CPU, Fast RAM and USB I was hoping for could simply be added via the planned 28MHz 68020EC card.
That would just leave the SD/FF on my wish list which is covered by this option:
It will get very expensive though...
You'll need the MB (> 200 EUR) + the (new) scan-doubler card + a (new) IC accelerator card just to build a usable computer.
And if you want to add LAN and USB then you need to purchase further IC cards.
It's great to see a new classic MB of course but this is sounding too expensive.
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It's not the fact it wont come with a CPU but it limits what cards I can connect to it. So I can't use my Apollo 060.
Also dislike the fact my mediator may not work with it, some mention about that would be nice.
Anyway, if he must tinker 8MB chip should be on the list.
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It's not the fact it wont come with a CPU but it limits what cards I can connect to it. So I can't use my Apollo 060.
It sounds like it 'might' work with your Apollo but it's not guaranteed to work, only the newer ACA 12xx cards are guaranteed to work (so even super fast ACA1230 56Mhz may not work)
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Which means it might also work with a Blizzard PPC. As if those danged cards don't already fetch a pretty penny. ;)
Too bad it won't work with all those "FPU + RAM only" cards floating around, haha. :insane:
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Amiga Reloaded sounds cool!
"USB functionality can be added with the X-Surf-100 version of RapidRoad."
"The Amiga Reloaded will use the same expansion port as the ACA500 and ACA500plus for a networking card."
Ideally there should be USB and RJ45 as a standard nowdays.
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Amiga Reloaded sounds cool!
"USB functionality can be added with the X-Surf-100 version of RapidRoad."
"The Amiga Reloaded will use the same expansion port as the ACA500 and ACA500plus for a networking card."
Ideally there should be USB and RJ45 as a standard nowdays.
I agree - indi mk2 should also be standard. This would probably increase the overall cost of the board , but would probably be cheaper and less "hacky" than adding them via add on boards.
Im not a hardware guy - but I was kind of hoping for a bit more of an upgrade than this.
eg: how about some standard ram slots and a chip ram upgrade ?
also - how about talking with the guys working on Apollo / Phoenix ? I think one of the stumbling blocks for an a1200 version is the cpu connector - some sort of more readily available connector would be handy!
Nick
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Why not increase the chip RAM to 8MB as we all know that this is possible, anyway not looking good.
Simply because the board uses the original CBM chipset, and this can only address 2MB chip RAM, not more.
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Per recent discussions, the Flash ROM option means Amigakit will not carry/sell this item. But I will just order directly from icomp.de myself.
I seem to have missed those discussions. Can provide a link or just give a brief summary.
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Simply because the board uses the original CBM chipset, and this can only address 2MB chip RAM, not more.
The limitation is in Alice. It might just be lack of support in the chip, but I've never bothered to look whether the pin out would support >2mb. It's a dram interface so row and column addresses are multiplexed, it's not as simple as counting address bits. Bearing in mind the a4000 2mb/8mb chip jumper, it's possible that if you could obtain an Alice that supported 8mb it would drop in to the design. It might need different ram though.
It's possible but unlikely that Alice would support 8mb but the motherboard and ram that commodore supplied was unsuitable. I'm not holding out any hope that anyone would find out how to make that work, even if it did exist.
The only way to fix it would be with an FPGA and then you might as well buy a mist or arcadefpga.
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Is this what Jens call "Clone-A"?
Kamelito
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Is this what Jens call "Clone-A"?
Kamelito
No. Clone-A was/is a project to replace CBM made chipset with FPGA chips.
Amiga Reloaded would use existing (CBM manufactured) components.
http://www.amigahistory.plus.com/clone-a.html
http://www.totalamiga.org/files/TA25_JensIviewExtract.pdf
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Clone-A "went the way of "no more announcements until it's done"." was said by Jens in 2011.
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Something different, I did not know or remember there was also "Amy the Dream Clone".
http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Amiga_Dream_Clone.jpg
http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2013-06-00039-EN.html
+ AmigaReloaded
Sources of components etc:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=78847&page=5
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The Amiga Reloaded sounds like an exciting development. I can't wait until it's available to get. Individual Computers makes great products.
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I understand all the IComp modules being left out to get the cost down but I'd realy like to see at least the IndivisionAGA be included.
I'd also love to see something like a extended MiniITX board, with a keyboard interface and a Zorroslot or two (like the Amy Dream Clone (http://blog.a-eon.biz/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Amiga_Dream_Clone.jpg) and later 416D79 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtkshTsFV98)) so we can get RTG and use a modern case.
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I understand all the IComp modules being left out to get the cost down but I'd realy like to see at least the IndivisionAGA be included.
Some people prefer to hook up an old 15khz CRT or SCART TV for their display and would be asking why they have to pay extra for a built in SD/FF.
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@Rob
That is because you see it as pay extra... why do you have to pay extra for the included TrueIDE CF solution instead of a cheap IDE port where I can use my old harddrive and optical drive?
I'd just like to see a more complete motherboard, one where the output isn't monocrome as standard and where I have to pay extra no matter if I want 23pin RGB port or VGA/DVI port.
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@Rob
That is because you see it as pay extra... why do you have to pay extra for the included TrueIDE CF solution instead of a cheap IDE port where I can use my old harddrive and optical drive.
OMG you guys. With that logic, why include anything? What if I want to buy just a bare motherboard without the Alice and Lisa and Paula chips, can I do that and use my own? How about "can I buy it with no keyboard header to save .05 cents, and solder my own on?"
I facepalm so hard at this forum, sometimes. :angry:
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@Mike
Exactly my point... I just pointed out that "I don't want to pay extra for X" wasn't the argument I was making but that I thought a propper videooption shouldn't be an option to begin with on an Amiga motherboard.
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See http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=69093 on Flash ROM's
Read post #11 and forward from there.
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sounds awsome
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@Mike
Exactly my point... I just pointed out that "I don't want to pay extra for X" wasn't the argument I was making but that I thought a propper videooption shouldn't be an option to begin with on an Amiga motherboard.
There is a limited number of I/O cutouts on the rear of the case so including one option on the motherboard might exclude the possibility of the other. This is especially the case with the A500. Sure, you can make your own with a dremmel but a lot of people won't be happy to make cosmetic alterations to their case which can't be reversed.
The layout of the I/O ports on the A500 and A1200 are different too so unless users are forced butcher the case at least some of it will have to be on fly-leads anyway and that's only a step away from it on a seperate module.
Another consideration is that since the board will have an original Lisa chip, the current Indivisions are most likely compatible and therefore owners of such hardware wouldn't require any other video output.
When it all comes down to it I don't really see what the big deal is if the video output is on the mainboard or not. The only important part is that it actually ships with that output.
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See http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=69093 on Flash ROM's
Read post #11 and forward from there.
The wiki says that it will come with fully licensed ROMs rather than blanks so there will be no issues there.
Jens has had a license for kickstart 1.3 and 3.1 from Hyperion since Q1 2013.
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The wiki says that it will come with fully licensed ROMs rather than blanks so there will be no issues there.
Jens has had a license for kickstart 1.3 and 3.1 from Hyperion since Q1 2013.
Kindly read the discussion more closely.
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Interesting, I would have to see the final price first, before I decide anything.
But it would have been nice to include USB and NIC as standard.
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Quote from Wiki:
"Keyboard
A jumper will select if you want to use an A500 or an A1200 keyboard. Although LEDs may get in the way (and might need modification), this will let you use an A1200 keyboard in an A500 case and vice versa. This will give you the opportunity to create your unique colour combination. Following the idea of not requiring and case modification(s), the keyboard will also be used to switch the computer on/off."
So there are 2 keyboard interfaces on the motherboard; one for A500 and one for A1200?! That doesn't make any sense.
Why don't they ship it with a NEW Amiga case and keyboard, so we don't have to hack it into an existing A500/A1200 case.
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I like stories, I wonder how Jens came across the motherload of old C= era AGA chips?
Are they original chips ? Is this not the outcome of the Amiga clone he was working on for years.
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Are they original chips ? Is this not the outcome of the Amiga clone he was working on for years.
" I located the actual stock of chips in multiple locations. One had Lisa chips, another had Alice, and a third had Paula. During the late 90s, these people believed that they had "gold", and they could not agree on a project because everyone was demanding a too-high share of whatever money they could make. With everyone in the boat being able to block each other, new Amigas never happened.
Almost 20 years after, I managed to convince each and everyone of them to sell me their remaining stock.
Jens"
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Maybe I didn't read the whole article lol
Fair enough, though does make for a limited run
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Interesting, I would have to see the final price first, before I decide anything.
But it would have been nice to include USB and NIC as standard.
I agree, final price first. It sounds like its going to end up too expensive with all the modules, but it offers choice. But NIC and USB should be on the main board as they are a necessity in the modern verse. And overall would cut costs on those items for all. Wait and see, with anticipation of course . . . :)
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Kindly read the discussion more closely.
I did. They already sell/sold ACA500 anyway.
http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1168
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There is a limited number of I/O cutouts on the rear of the case so including one option on the motherboard might exclude the possibility of the other. This is especially the case with the A500. Sure, you can make your own with a dremmel but a lot of people won't be happy to make cosmetic alterations to their case which can't be reversed.
The layout of the I/O ports on the A500 and A1200 are different too so unless users are forced butcher the case at least some of it will have to be on fly-leads anyway and that's only a step away from it on a seperate module.
Another consideration is that since the board will have an original Lisa chip, the current Indivisions are most likely compatible and therefore owners of such hardware wouldn't require any other video output.
When it all comes down to it I don't really see what the big deal is if the video output is on the mainboard or not. The only important part is that it actually ships with that output.
An option could be to make a smaller motherboard with headers for a secondary I/O board that for the A500/1200 would of cause have less ports due to formfactor and then another I/O board for mATX backplane where all ports would fit. This would cater to both keyboard and bigbox enthusiasts... especially if adding a header for an optional Zorro board. :D
I never was a fan of patchworks when upgrading the original A1200 so was hoping this could adress that issue.
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I agree, final price first. It sounds like its going to end up too expensive with all the modules, but it offers choice. But NIC and USB should be on the main board as they are a necessity in the modern verse. And overall would cut costs on those items for all. Wait and see, with anticipation of course . . . :)
I prefer the modular approach. USB is an old technology which could go out of favour in the future, or drastically change. Same with onboard NIC's. To future proof the machine, I really do believe that the modular approach is the right one. I understand your point of view though.
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Lol, USB and RJ45 (Ethernet) ports aren't going anywhere or changing to the point where they won't be backwards compatible.
Both should have been included on this board, and had they been, I probably would have ended up buying one.
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Lol, USB and RJ45 (Ethernet) ports aren't going anywhere or changing to the point where they won't be backwards compatible.
Both should have been included on this board, and had they been, I probably would have ended up buying one.
You know if they had been, somebody would complain about "why do I have to pay extra for something I'm not going to use", blah blah yadda yadda.
You can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you can't please all the people all the time! :(
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Lol, USB and RJ45 (Ethernet) ports aren't going anywhere or changing to the point where they won't be backwards compatible.
Both should have been included on this board, and had they been, I probably would have ended up buying one.
Glad I made someone smile today :)
I hope you're right. Still, it leaves options open for different interfaces or upgrades as an alternative.
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You know if they had been, somebody would complain about "why do I have to pay extra for something I'm not going to use", blah blah yadda yadda.
You can please all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you can't please all the people all the time! :(
A pessimist sees the difficulty in every opportunity; an optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Asking if the glass is half empty or half full is the wrong question. Always ask what is in the glass!
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As Amiga's go, this glass is pretty damned full.
I thought was done buying legacy hardware but this might just have changed my mind.
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I prefer the modular approach. USB is an old technology which could go out of favour in the future, or drastically change. Same with onboard NIC's. To future proof the machine, I really do believe that the modular approach is the right one. I understand your point of view though.
USB:
Well, I don't see USB going anywhere soon, and given the scope of the machine being classic in nature and its slow bus speeds (talking about all future bus speeds in comparison to modern tech.), having the ability to plug in a DVD/CD drive is an important basic feature, much like having a floppy drive capability for those who need/want to continue using them. Parallel and Serial ports of old can be utilized through USB (with drivers) at a far cheaper cost (an adapter) than buying a module for USB. Just look at the current cost of existing module.
NIC:
The easiest way to update the computer would be to have access to a network/internet in a cost effective manner.
I understand your point, but by that way of thinking, to keep the computer at pace with the world, all devices on board should be modules. Thus the form factor should be like a larger, more modern modular system. (Big RPi or A4K replacement) But the form factor has been chosen by the developer to be for the A500 & A1200 without having to cut or modify the case so where do all these add on cards going to go/come out of the system? The number of outlets for expandability are limited by each case in question.
Price will determine the success. :)
And yes, I am smiling . . . :lol:
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Yep I agree.
At a minimum I'd like it to include:
Indy Mrk2
LAN
USB
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Yep I agree.
At a minimum I'd like it to include:
Indy Mrk2
LAN
USB
I heartedly agree. This would've been a great opportunity to create a 'baseline' system (USB, NIC, 'VGA' output) that would act as nice target platform for 68k developers.
Making it so modular, while a good money-spinner for the retailers, will tend to 'fragment' the user-base... I guess I'm thinking a bit ahead of myself...
Just my opinion though...
Mike.
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+ SATA
+ audio codec / dsp
http://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/design/embedded-systems/xmos-shows-3-quad-core-microcontroller-2013-02/
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I tend to agree that a new baseline board with the essentials included would be preferable. The USB/VGA/NIC/CPU kludges we have now are driven by necessity to work with the classic motherboards.
Building these kludges into a new motherboard seems odd.
Who knows why this approach has been taken, it may be driven by I/O limitations of the AGA chips, build costs or a desire to shift a large stock of individual computers add on cards.
Whatever the reason, having new dedicated classic motherboards is a great thing, so hats off to Jens for sticking with it.
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Yep I agree.
At a minimum I'd like it to include:
Indy Mrk2
LAN
USB
Buy those modules with the board then. Simple.
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I understand your point, but by that way of thinking, to keep the computer at pace with the world, all devices on board should be modules. Thus the form factor should be like a larger, more modern modular system.
It would surely be nice if there was a usb3/pcie3/zorro capable motherboard, with bonus points for built in gigabit and sata. However you'd probably be better off making a minimig pcie3 bridgeboard, with the amiga audio and video streamed across the pcie3 bus but allow full control of all the new hardware from 68k as well.
Ultimately you end up deciding that amithlon is probably the cheapest option.
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Asking if the glass is half empty or half full is the wrong question. Always ask what is in the glass!
No, always ask: "Hey! Who the hell drank half my beer?!?" ;)
From Jens perspective it makes perfect sense to have no CPU, its a new board, that sells more of his boards and it *might* work with older accelerators too. Likewise with the USB etc.
Really he's not going to be able to please everyone and this "buy what you want" approach makes sense.
I'm certainly curious about it anyway.
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I tend to agree that a new baseline board with the essentials included would be preferable. The USB/VGA/NIC/CPU kludges we have now are driven by necessity to work with the classic motherboards.
Building these kludges into a new motherboard seems odd.
It won't be kludges though since the module will have a dedicated connections on the motherboard rather than clipping over a chip or hanging off some port that was never designed for the purpose.
Who knows why this approach has been taken, it may be driven by I/O limitations of the AGA chips, build costs or a desire to shift a large stock of individual computers add on cards.
It's mainly because different people have different needs. If you're building a WHDload games machine your less likely to want USB and a NIC, while other users may view those items as essential.
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From Jens perspective it makes perfect sense to have no CPU, its a new board, that sells more of his boards and it *might* work with older accelerators too. Likewise with the USB etc.
Really he's not going to be able to please everyone and this "buy what you want" approach makes sense.
I agree. The amiga community is, well, a little nutty. And as someone else mentioned, it would be impossible to please all the people all the time. This seems like the best compromise.
I seem to remember some people complaining about the addition of the 68020 to the aca500. I also remember a lot of people complaining that the aca500 was external. This seems like a reaction to both those complaints. This allows people to do whatever they want.
So maybe this approach will offend the fewest people while providing a reasonable solution to those who are offended? It's a lot easier to add missing features than to remove (and refund) unneeded features.
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If he had called it "acutiator" everyone would be ecstatic about the new system.
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The limitation is in Alice. It might just be lack of support in the chip, but I've never bothered to look whether the pin out would support >2mb. It's a dram interface so row and column addresses are multiplexed, it's not as simple as counting address bits. Bearing in mind the a4000 2mb/8mb chip jumper, it's possible that if you could obtain an Alice that supported 8mb it would drop in to the design. It might need different ram though.
It's possible but unlikely that Alice would support 8mb but the motherboard and ram that commodore supplied was unsuitable. I'm not holding out any hope that anyone would find out how to make that work, even if it did exist.
The only way to fix it would be with an FPGA and then you might as well buy a mist or arcadefpga.
Just need to look at how DraCo did it :-)
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No, always ask: "Hey! Who the hell drank half my beer?!?" ;)
From Jens perspective it makes perfect sense to have no CPU, its a new board, that sells more of his boards and it *might* work with older accelerators too. Likewise with the USB etc.
Really he's not going to be able to please everyone and this "buy what you want" approach makes sense.
I'm certainly curious about it anyway.
Yep have to agree. I'm sure it's been carefully thought through. With the eclectic mix of Amiga enthusiasts around these days keeping things "open" is a way to cover most bases. The purpose of the card is to provide updated hardware. (The old stuff wont last forever. Accelerators included) This way an Amiga enthusiast can have new hardware with new components (including caps ;) ) that will last another 20 years. By then.. Well.. All good things must come to an end...
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Is there a way to produce more AGA chips? Were the digital files / ic chip mass production data lost forever? The machines were produced up until 1996. Why are these 25 year old chips so hard to source?
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Is there a way to produce more AGA chips? Were the digital files / ic chip mass production data lost forever? The machines were produced up until 1996. Why are these 25 year old chips so hard to source?
Because they haven't been manufactured in 25 years?
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A Draco clone would be cool and a mini-mig in a 3.5 inch FDD bay sounds cool too.
I have been looking at the older modular bus systems and a back plane system sounds like fun.
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I sort of agree with the modulat approach, since it will be up to the end user to add modules he or she wants.
But I do not see the point in using old chips, with old speeds, since all the chips can be replaced with fpga, we could have aga compatible chips, high speed and with 32 bit capability. But then again, the Overload board can be build now.
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I sort of agree with the modulat approach, since it will be up to the end user to add modules he or she wants.
But I do not see the point in using old chips, with old speeds, since all the chips can be replaced with fpga, we could have aga compatible chips, high speed and with 32 bit capability. But then again, the Overload board can be build now.
Jens can probably replicate or even improve upon the AGA chipset, so I'm a little confused by this design as well.
But it will probably be the last run of boards with real Amiga hardware.
So I may have to consider one myself.
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Right.. who knows. Could it be that once the finite amount of Amiga chips run out he will then become the solution to the problem created by selling off all the remaining Amiga chips. Jens can do this by finishing and releasing the "clone A" chips as plug in replacements for use in Amiga Reloaded and all Amigas.
At any rate hope this comes out.