Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: Nlandas on June 25, 2015, 08:22:44 PM
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Hey guys,
I have Amiga Forever and it's a great effort and does let me run AmigaOS and get nostalgic but I still like running actual hardware. I'd be interested in running the latest AmigaOS if the hardware could be made for less. However, since it still runs over RISC chips the cost of a motherboard is too high for me to dedicate currently. I the OS could be ported to AMD/Intel that would be amazing but the money is likely not there.
Am I really alone in wanting a retro Amiga AGA compatible clone system that would be as close to 100% compatible with the A1200/A4000 series? No I couldn't pay $1500 for it.
However, with the retro scene offering Atari 2600 Flashback compatible systems(hacks for adding a cartridge) and now the RetroN 5 supporting NES, Famicom, SNES, Super Famicom, Genesis, Mega Drive, Game Boy, Game Boy Color, & Game Boy Advance cartridges, along with a multitude of retro Coleco, Intellivision, others and the previous success of the C64DTV - doesn't it seem like there might be a place for Amiga? Isn't there some cost effective way with modern ICs to create an AGA hardware system in a complete package compatible with modern TVs, USB, etc. and sell enough to get costs down?
Am I wrong is the Amiga chipset still so complicated that even with modern ICs it's too expensive to clone like these other systems have been and release a modern hardware retro system?
I mean they even just released a complete replacement motherboard for the C64, which I do understand is less complicated than the custom chips but the market must be small for a replacement C64 motherboard at this point - isn't it? Not that I'm not also a C64 fan as well but I'd be more interested in a new C64DTV myself.
-Nyle
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Hey guys,
I have Amiga Forever and it's a great effort and does let me run AmigaOS and get nostalgic but I still like running actual hardware. I'd be interested in running the latest AmigaOS if the hardware could be made for less. However, since it still runs over RISC chips the cost of a motherboard is too high for me to dedicate currently. I the OS could be ported to AMD/Intel that would be amazing but the money is likely not there.
Am I really alone in wanting a retro Amiga AGA compatible clone system that would be as close to 100% compatible with the A1200/A4000 series? No I couldn't pay $1500 for it.
However, with the retro scene offering Atari 2600 Flashback compatible systems(hacks for adding a cartridge) and now the RetroN 5 supporting NES, Famicom, SNES, Super Famicom, Genesis, Mega Drive, Game Boy, Game Boy Color, & Game Boy Advance cartridges, along with a multitude of retro Coleco, Intellivision, others and the previous success of the C64DTV - doesn't it seem like there might be a place for Amiga? Isn't there some cost effective way with modern ICs to create an AGA hardware system in a complete package compatible with modern TVs, USB, etc. and sell enough to get costs down?
Am I wrong is the Amiga chipset still so complicated that even with modern ICs it's too expensive to clone like these other systems have been and release a modern hardware retro system?
I mean they even just released a complete replacement motherboard for the C64, which I do understand is less complicated than the custom chips but the market must be small for a replacement C64 motherboard at this point - isn't it? Not that I'm not also a C64 fan as well but I'd be more interested in a new C64DTV myself.
-Nyle
Wouldn't owning an Amiga 1200/4000/CD 32 solve your problem?
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FPGA Arcade?
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You would think someone would but . . . I would buy one (or more depending on price). But its too difficult or the community for this is too small. Sad! I want one . . .
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Hey guys,
I have Amiga Forever and it's a great effort and does let me run AmigaOS and get nostalgic but I still like running actual hardware. I'd be interested in running the latest AmigaOS if the hardware could be made for less. However, since it still runs over RISC chips the cost of a motherboard is too high for me to dedicate currently. I the OS could be ported to AMD/Intel that would be amazing but the money is likely not there.
Am I really alone in wanting a retro Amiga AGA compatible clone system that would be as close to 100% compatible with the A1200/A4000 series? No I couldn't pay $1500 for it.
However, with the retro scene offering Atari 2600 Flashback compatible systems(hacks for adding a cartridge) and now the RetroN 5 supporting NES, Famicom, SNES, Super Famicom, Genesis, Mega Drive, Game Boy, Game Boy Color, & Game Boy Advance cartridges, along with a multitude of retro Coleco, Intellivision, others and the previous success of the C64DTV - doesn't it seem like there might be a place for Amiga? Isn't there some cost effective way with modern ICs to create an AGA hardware system in a complete package compatible with modern TVs, USB, etc. and sell enough to get costs down?
Am I wrong is the Amiga chipset still so complicated that even with modern ICs it's too expensive to clone like these other systems have been and release a modern hardware retro system?
I mean they even just released a complete replacement motherboard for the C64, which I do understand is less complicated than the custom chips but the market must be small for a replacement C64 motherboard at this point - isn't it? Not that I'm not also a C64 fan as well but I'd be more interested in a new C64DTV myself.
-Nyle
The c64 is big in europe and uk etc still. Sadly not as much in the USA,but my c64 from 1983 is still going,and i have kept my 128dcr's etc.
Why reinvent the wheel. there are plenty of working aga amigas out there needing a good home,and if you shop smart they can be had for reasonable prices.
It amazes me how much time and effort people spend trying to get around the real stuff out there.
I see A4000's go for reasonable prices on ebay and the worst case they might need caps to make them reliable-just avoid ones with battery damage. add a cf for a hd and away you go.
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there are plenty of working aga amigas out there
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I see A4000's go for reasonable prices on ebay
I guess that depends on one's definition of "reasonable". :lol:
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i guess that depends on one's definition of "reasonable". :lol:
2500 dollars?
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2500 dollars?
For that kind of money you could probably buy two! :hammer:
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I guess that depends on one's definition of "reasonable". :lol:
for example:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Commodore-Amiga-4000-4000d-040-w-VideoToaster-keyboard-mouse-US-/161736900521?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25a8453fa9
He might take a $500 offer. i have seen 4k's go from $350 - 1200+ depending what they came with.
It doesn't seem to have battery damage,has a buster 11(full working z3 buss), you get a 040,16MB should work in 2-8MB simms if alternating sockets have clips(i think so from the pics). add a cf adapter as hd(sandisk 32GB cf's on sale for $29 now). toaster isn't of much use for most people(could do a web cam with it lol).. assuming he took the offer, you would have a working machine for around $600. seems reasonable.
you have a good base to build on if you want a gfx card or anything down the road,and add a pal/ntsc switch and viola! a whdload machine.
I know someone will ask about the 32gb cf: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1012242&gclid=CPHop9Hvq8YCFQqSaQodBPAH1g&Q=&m=Y&is=REG&A=details
Mech
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for example:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Commodore-Amiga-4000-4000d-040-w-VideoToaster-keyboard-mouse-US-/161736900521?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25a8453fa9
He might take a $500 offer. i have seen 4k's go from $350 - 1200+ depending what they came with.
It doesn't seem to have battery damage,has a buster 11(full working z3 buss), you get a 040,16MB should work in 2-8MB simms if alternating sockets have clips(i think so from the pics). add a cf adapter as hd(sandisk 32GB cf's on sale for $29 now). toaster isn't of much use for most people(could do a web cam with it lol).. assuming he took the offer, you would have a working machine for around $600. seems reasonable.
you have a good base to build on if you want a gfx card or anything down the road,and add a pal/ntsc switch and viola! a whdload machine.
I know someone will ask about the 32gb cf: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=1012242&gclid=CPHop9Hvq8YCFQqSaQodBPAH1g&Q=&m=Y&is=REG&A=details
Mech
Isn't that link proof positive that classic Amiga system are reaching outrageous prices? That buying an FPGA Arcade seem to be not only dirt cheap but ultimate solution instead of buying an A4000D?
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Isn't that link proof positive that classic Amiga system are reaching outrageous prices? That buying an FPGA Arcade seem to be not only dirt cheap but ultimate solution instead of buying an A4000D?
How is $500 outrageous? its probably a quarter of what it cost new. Maybe you expect something for nothing? The fpga arcade has no expansion bus to add anything to it.
Can you even buy a fpga arcade? are you comparing a real machine with vapor?(its vapor until i can hold it in my hand and use it).
what does the replay cost, i cant find a price anywhere on the site?
nevertheless, my goal wasnt to hijack his thread.
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How is $500 outrageous? its probably a quarter of what it cost new. Maybe you expect something for nothing? The fpga arcade has no expansion bus to add anything to it.
Can you even buy a fpga arcade? are you comparing a real machine with vapor?(its vapor until i can hold it in my hand and use it).
what does the replay cost, i cant find a price anywhere on the site?
nevertheless, my goal wasnt to hijack his thread.
Because you can buy it now if you want and this is the link where you can buy it:
http://amiga.amedia-computer.com/index.php/catalogue/infos/3/9/CONFVESAFPGA#.VYzk4kaIlZg
It is literally available for sale and they will literally ship it to you immediately. To answer your question what makes it special? Everything that the classic Amiga gives with it's expansion ports are already implemented in the FPGA Arcade therefore there is no need for expansion at all.
Such as the following:
1) USB
2) Network
3) Scandoubler
4) Sound blaster
5) CPU speed
6) RTG
7) RAM
8) Hard drive
9) Virtual disk
10) VGA port
For 499 euro I believe it is even cheaper than classic Amiga if you intend to expand it like crazy and still the FPGA Arcade is faster than the fasted expanded classic Amiga. What else does it offer beside all the above I mentioned?
Check out the different platforms it also offer:
http://www.fpgaarcade.com/platforms/
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It is literally available for sale and they will literally ship it to you immediately.
Really literally or just soon literally? Last I heard was that it would soon ship in quantity but that there were many back orders that would probably take some time to fill. That likely means "get in line and wait", literally.
1) USB
2) Network
3) Scandoubler
4) Sound blaster
5) CPU speed
6) RTG
7) RAM
8) Hard drive
9) Virtual disk
10) VGA port
Some of these features are on the expansion board which has not been produced and will cost more. Sound blaster though?
For 499 euro I believe it is even cheaper than classic Amiga if you intend to expand it like crazy and still the FPGA Arcade is faster than the fasted expanded classic Amiga.
The FPGA Arcade only is about as fast as a high clocked 68030 and has no FPU or MMU. The unavailable expansion and a rare rev 6 68060 are required for "the fastest classic Amiga". The 499 Euro price includes a case and card so it is cheaper as board only (I believe closer to 300 Euros for the board only). Mist has AGA now and is currently available and cheaper (with half the memory of the FPGA Arcade) but has a different set of features. They are both competitive in price and performance with entry level AGA hardware. They are not going to beat a high end AGA Amiga in performance, yet.
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Really literally or just soon literally? Last I heard was that it would soon ship in quantity but that there were many back orders that would probably take some time to fill. That likely means "get in line and wait", literally.
I have only enough energy to reply to this because I know this discussion will endlessly go back and forth and I don't have this in me anymore. I am getting old, sorry. Let the new generation take over and have fun debating and replying back and forth until end of time..not me.
Now back to this, I am personally talking to one of the team of FPGA Arcade and he said they literally have it for sale and not in back order stock and they literally will ship it with tracking number.
If you wish to reply back with further comments, my suggestion is to contact them through the website and ask them yourself.
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@Nlandas
>I still like running actual hardware.
You could try to:
-find A1200+030+fastRAM+HDD for ok 68k experience.
-or get a minimig HW (or something more capable FPGA board for AGA)
> I'd be interested in running the latest AmigaOS if the hardware could be made for less. However, since it still runs over RISC chips the cost of a motherboard is too high for me to dedicate currently.
1) the cost is not because the RISC CPU
2) cost is because a complex design of motherboard + small target market to cover R&D cost
AOS4.1 compatible new computers start from EUR1000 or so.
MorphOS is similarly amigalike os, and it runs on affordable old PPC apple HW. (my MorphOS laptop cost EUR50)
AROS/icaros and AEROS are also worth a try. It runs on ARM, x86 etc...
(but not with every x86 HW setup)
>I the OS could be ported to AMD/Intel that would be amazing but the money is likely not there.
It is not possible to target all motherboards, so that is not easy solution either.
But it should be possible to do good support for some selected motherboard that are in production and available for longer than some typical 3...6 months.
(If custom board needs to be made, x86 is not cheaper, just more powerfull.)
etc. etc.
>Am I really alone in wanting a retro Amiga AGA compatible clone system that would be as close to 100% compatible with the A1200/A4000 series?
You are not.
I personally want more than AGA capability.
It is not sane, but it would be fun to follow (+donate) to a development of AAA+ chipset implemented via FPGA.
I would consider using/playing with such HW on a PCIe slot of a cheap PPC motherboard.
But I also have real classic Amigas that will not last forever.
To replace them one day, I would be interested in a solution where FPGA based CPU and FPGA based chipset are used via PCIe backplane/busboard.
(a little bit like shown in my avatar)
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FPGA Arcade is an interesting device and I've discussed it and read about it elsewhere. There are some really good features, along with 8MB chip RAM but it wont be a replacement for my A1200 060@80Mhz just yet.
Possibly with the 060 daughter board it may come close.
I've had my A1200 recapped so possibly it will last a little longer, one day it may die and FPGA or something similar would replace it.
So will keep watching for now :-)
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I have only enough energy to reply to this because I know this discussion will endlessly go back and forth and I don't have this in me anymore. I am getting old, sorry. Let the new generation take over and have fun debating and replying back and forth until end of time..not me.
I didn't mean to give you a hard time although your information was suspect. I thought your "literally" sentence was funny and continued with it.
Now back to this, I am personally talking to one of the team of FPGA Arcade and he said they literally have it for sale and not in back order stock and they literally will ship it with tracking number.
It looks like it is for sale and shipping but that still doesn't guarantee someone buying one will have it shipped promptly. MikeJ said there are 128 boards. Subtract the 40 boards which were already "in the wild" and that gives about 80. Jim and Laurent have about 70 pre/back orders each so there is not enough for everyone with the last batch. Maybe Mike has more boards already but I wouldn't count on it. The pre-order customers have a good chance of getting a package soon. Hopefully, more will follow soon. Source:
http://www.fpgaarcade.com/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=471
P.S. Looks like the FPGA Arcade board price is 199Euro for the version without composite/SVHS output, 229Euro with.
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I got my FPGA Arcade on Tuesday, but then I've been waiting in the queue since 15th May 2011...
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I got my FPGA Arcade on Tuesday, but then I've been waiting in the queue since 15th May 2011...
Wow. More patience than an emergency hospital.
But even with FPGA its nit gonna be a classic experience. No more than hidden virtualization. IMO. Get an A1200 if u want classic.
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You may be interested in the MiST FPGA too (= Minimig with bigger FPGA, no physical 68000, and with more standard I/O like USB, USB power supply, db9, MIDI...). Its price is reasonable considering the number of units produced (200 eur.) and the 1.0 version of the Amiga AGA core was released a couple of days ago (I'm making a news item about it).
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It would be nice if they could come up with something like miniMIG AGA. Could they not use at least the 030 and FPGA for custom chips?
My 4000 is dead and it is too expensive to replace. All of them had the same battery damage.
Yes, it would be nice.
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The FPGA Arcade only is about as fast as a high clocked 68030 and has no FPU or MMU. The unavailable expansion and a rare rev 6 68060 are required for "the fastest classic Amiga".
Yeah that is the real problem, once FPGAs can run a 100% compatible 68060 with FPU and MMU faster than anything Motorola ever made then I will probably buy one.
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MIST runs about speed of 50mhz 030, it supports AGA and price is reasonable 199 Euros
http://somuch.guru/minimig/minimig-mist/
Web shop
http://lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=96
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Because you can buy it now if you want and this is the link where you can buy it:
http://amiga.amedia-computer.com/index.php/catalogue/infos/3/9/CONFVESAFPGA#.VYzk4kaIlZg
It is literally available for sale and they will literally ship it to you immediately. To answer your question what makes it special? Everything that the classic Amiga gives with it's expansion ports are already implemented in the FPGA Arcade therefore there is no need for expansion at all.
Such as the following:
1) USB
2) Network
3) Scandoubler
4) Sound blaster
5) CPU speed
6) RTG
7) RAM
8) Hard drive
9) Virtual disk
10) VGA port
For 499 euro I believe it is even cheaper than classic Amiga if you intend to expand it like crazy and still the FPGA Arcade is faster than the fasted expanded classic Amiga. What else does it offer beside all the above I mentioned?
Check out the different platforms it also offer:
http://www.fpgaarcade.com/platforms/
Like matt pointed out, for that base price it doesn't beat a highly expanded amiga. its 030 with no fpu/mmu-The a4000 is a 040/25mhz with full mmu/fpu-well most models). so your are not making a fair comparison. I suspect by the time you expanded fpgaarcade to specs you claim it would be quite a bit more.
facts is facts,and you can spin it any way you like. My 4k has been running since 1992 pretty much 24/7 only down for adding boards etc. It still has the original caps. I'd say i got quite good value from it.
Why bother with fpgaarcade and such anyway,a emulator on a cheap pc does the same( i prefer real hw!), its not like this stuff will give you the real amiga experience no matter how cool/neet/wow fpga arcade etc is.
That is the problem when your only criteria is cheap.. u get what you pay for. i know in 10 more years if i sold my a4000 i would get my money back or more, they hold their value if you take care of them and i look at it as a good investment. I have been fixing amigas since 87' and 90% of the problems on 4000's i run into are user caused by plugging in something wrong,neglecting the psu fan until the machine overheats badly,or such. very few chip repairs other than battery damage or caps going bad..roms having bitrot etc.
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Why bother with FPGA arcade and such anyway, a emulator on a cheap PC does the same (I prefer real hw!), its not like this stuff will give you the real Amiga Experience no matter how cool/neat/wow[woop.the.fücking.doo] [the] FPGA arcade etc is.
...
Exactly!
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@danbeaver, mechy
You guys are being a bit harsh on the FPGA hardware. The old Amiga hardware has its nostalgia and advantages which means many will continue to enjoy using it but it will always have its limitations too.
classic Amiga hardware advantages/disadvantages
+ nostalgia of real, old and substantial hardware
+ serviceable and expandable
+ CPU compatibility, performance and features set the standard
+ relatively good HD performance is possible
+ relatively fast RTG and 3D are possible
- it is old and more is failing everyday
- I/O is mostly outdated
- OCS/ECS/AGA and chip memory are slow
- not enough AGA compatible hardware
- Zorro II/III and PCI are relatively slow
- cost is high for good hardware
FPGA Amiga hardware advantages/disadvantages
+ very flexible and upgradable because of FPGA
+ modern I/O
+ RTG (but no 3D yet)
+ fast AGA, chip memory (also expandable >2MB) and custom chips possible
+ fast memory
+ easily degradable for compatibility
+ production can increase to meet demand
+ small and energy efficient
+ standard power supplies and cases possible
- CPU, FPU, MMU performance and availability limited by FPGA cost (improving though)
- SATA and PCIe require a significantly more expensive FPGA (improving though)
- SD/microSD disk performance is unexceptional
- not enough memory for power users
The 1st generation FPGA hardware like the MiniMig was neat but not very useful for most Amiga users because they had better hardware. The 2nd generation FPGA hardware like the FPGA Arcade and Mist are good enough and useful enough to have sitting beside good old Amiga hardware and will upgrade many users with low spec and/or broken Amiga hardware. A 3rd gen FPGA Amiga hardware could be what the Natami tried to do before its time and could become the main Amiga computer for many. It would require more cooperation, investment and standards for it to happen. Nobody is going to throw the old Amiga hardware away though ;).
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Why bother with fpgaarcade and such anyway,a emulator on a cheap pc does the same( i prefer real hw!), its not like this stuff will give you the real amiga experience no matter how cool/neet/wow fpga arcade etc is.
The main difference is latency. An fpga ought to be able to achieve the same latency as real hardware. An emulator will always have at least one frame of latency for the display plus whatever the usb peripherals introduce.
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MIST runs about speed of 50mhz 030, it supports AGA and price is reasonable 199 Euros
http://somuch.guru/minimig/minimig-mist/
Web shop
http://lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=96
"All rights reserved. Copyrights © 2011 www.lotharek.pl"
The site is last updated in 2011... Are they still made? Why isn't Amigakit or Vesalia selling them?
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They can be bought from various places and there is even a new core available.
Here is one place, Amigastore are great. I've ordered a couple of items off them that Amigakit didn't have at the time.
Or just buy straight from the the man himself :-)
http://amigastore.eu/en/318-mist-fpga-computer.html
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Of course, classic hardware and emulation are great. But they are quite a few reasons why an FPGA/Minimig/MiST may give a better experience than emulation (or at least, makes sense)
- latency : I never had a satisfying experience under emulation as far as input delay is concerned. When I play shmups I really need no latency at all otherwise the gameplay balance is ruined... Why bother playing a game when your skills are hindered by the emulation latency !
- no underlying OS : it makes a HUGE difference. You really have the feeling you are making use of the capacities of the original machine even if it's just hardware emulation. You cannot "cheat" and cannot be distracted. We all have the feeling we have trouble focusing on a single task with multitasking, high speed internet etc. Well, with an FPGA Amiga, you can't. And it's great IMHO :) Like reading a great booking instead of reading thousands of articles introductions and not remembering anything.
- rendering : although it's probably possible to have a great rendering under emulation with pixel shaders etc., it's difficult to have a perfect 50 Hz display, and a clear picture (neither blocky nor blurry). I'm sure there are some Windows and WinUAE specialists that will teach me wrong. But as far as I'm concerned, I was never satisfied, probably due to my GPU / screen / OS combination. With the MiST (provided the screen is supported) you get 50 Hz, and with subtle scanlines, for some reason, the picture looks less blocky and less blurry than what one usually gets under emulation.
As for the classic HW versus FPGA recreation, the comparison in a post below is relevant. I would just add : - very satisfying rendering with LCD screens when used with the optional scanlines (clearly better than a classic Amiga with a scandoubler on an LCD screen).
Of course... All those points are moot if compatibility is not high enough !!!
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They can be bought from various places and there is even a new core available.
Here is one place, Amigastore are great. I've ordered a couple of items off them that Amigakit didn't have at the time.
Or just buy straight from the the man himself :-)
http://amigastore.eu/en/318-mist-fpga-computer.html
OK, thanks dude!
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Don't compare everything to WinUAE. It is not designed for playing arcade games. I'm pretty sure Toni even said that he would not be optimizing the code. He does not get paid for it.
If you want a fast emulator try Winfellow, but no one is working on it at the moment.
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I would like to have, mobo with following features :
A1200 and A4000 CPU slot, so that any A1200 / A4000 accelerator would be useable.
At least 4 Zorro II / III slot, so that Zorro mode would be selectable, no matter wich accelerator is used. I mean Zorro III mode should be availlable even if A1200 accelerator is used. Should be doable, RMB did it as a prototype.
At least 2 active PCI slots. But Zorro slots are more important.
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@danbeaver, mechy
You guys are being a bit harsh on the FPGA hardware. The old Amiga hardware has its nostalgia and advantages which means many will continue to enjoy using it but it will always have its limitations too.
classic Amiga hardware advantages/disadvantages
+ nostalgia of real, old and substantial hardware
+ serviceable and expandable
+ CPU compatibility, performance and features set the standard
+ relatively good HD performance is possible
+ relatively fast RTG and 3D are possible
- it is old and more is failing everyday
- I/O is mostly outdated
- OCS/ECS/AGA and chip memory are slow
- not enough AGA compatible hardware
- Zorro II/III and PCI are relatively slow
- cost is high for good hardware
FPGA Amiga hardware advantages/disadvantages
+ very flexible and upgradable because of FPGA
+ modern I/O
+ RTG (but no 3D yet)
+ fast AGA, chip memory (also expandable >2MB) and custom chips possible
+ fast memory
+ easily degradable for compatibility
+ production can increase to meet demand
+ small and energy efficient
+ standard power supplies and cases possible
- CPU, FPU, MMU performance and availability limited by FPGA cost (improving though)
- SATA and PCIe require a significantly more expensive FPGA (improving though)
- SD/microSD disk performance is unexceptional
- not enough memory for power users
The 1st generation FPGA hardware like the MiniMig was neat but not very useful for most Amiga users because they had better hardware. The 2nd generation FPGA hardware like the FPGA Arcade and Mist are good enough and useful enough to have sitting beside good old Amiga hardware and will upgrade many users with low spec and/or broken Amiga hardware. A 3rd gen FPGA Amiga hardware could be what the Natami tried to do before its time and could become the main Amiga computer for many. It would require more cooperation, investment and standards for it to happen. Nobody is going to throw the old Amiga hardware away though ;).
Don't get me wrong, its amazing what these guys have done, I just wish amigans had stuck together to further the hardware we had. we are so split in so many ways that its amazing jens even makes hardware for us. emulator and users of these fpga machines don't buy his hardware or support amiga stores for the most part.
One man, George Braun(sp!?) is a good example of what can be done, even thought his hardware did not further the specs past what we have,this one guy managed to build a amiga motherboard with better specs for the 1000. Imagine if we had all stuck together for a common goal.
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Just get a real Amiga and be done with it. If you don't have the money save up for it. I would spend my hard earned money on REAL Amiga hardware vs some hacked micro computer that is pretty much worthless and has zero monetary value after purchased.
Rich
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I would like to have, mobo with following features :
A1200 and A4000 CPU slot, so that any A1200 / A4000 accelerator would be useable.
At least 4 Zorro II / III slot, so that Zorro mode would be selectable, no matter wich accelerator is used. I mean Zorro III mode should be availlable even if A1200 accelerator is used. Should be doable, RMB did it as a prototype.
At least 2 active PCI slots. But Zorro slots are more important.
I love the 1200 and own several but...you are asking for stuff that has been done. Building on the 1200 makes no sense at all. its not a proper full 32bit design to start with..bad power supply,motherboard bugs,slow unbuffered ide,EC cpu, its like buiding a house on a mud foundation or in pc terms.. trying to build a 386 into a gaming/full blown internet machine.
zorro2 and 3 use the same slot, theres no need to make it selectable, either card works in it in either mode automagically.
The 4000 is more bang for the buck from the get go. Having said that what i would like to see is a new 4000 board with onboard 060,512k fast ram,pci or pcie slots native,with usb,ethernet etc local bus to the cpu,eliminating bottlenecks. I cant undertsand why anyone would build on a 1200 when they want what the 4k has. its not cheaper and all the added 1200 dongles generally make it where something is bound to not make good contact and start acting up. Even if you take a 1200 all the way,the bppc is still way slower than the csppc-not to mention csppc uwscsi rocks,and you still dont have proper zorro3 because 1200 is missing buster chip(i said proper,not the buggy z3 busboards or the hokey ziv overclocked zorro2). It may sound like i'm down on 1200's but im not, i'm just stating hardware facts.
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Just get a real Amiga and be done with it. If you don't have the money save up for it. I would spend my hard earned money on REAL Amiga hardware vs some hacked micro computer that is pretty much worthless and has zero monetary value after purchased.
Rich
Well said.
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new hardware is pri. 1 but beyond AGA.
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And I can buy a mobo ready to rock - Where and How Much ($) ? ? ?
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@Mechy
You are right and wrong same time. It doesn't need to have limitattions of A1200 or A4000. All I'm asking is support for excisting accelerators and Zorro cards.
Build new board with all of those limitations would be stupid. I would offer Super fast cip ram, Super fast and realibale Zorro II/III and PCI
This way people could use their 040/060 accelerators, without needing to buy Super expensive A4000 accelerator or new A1200 accelerator. It is possible to have Zorro III with A1200 accelerator. PCI would be essential for those who doesn't have all needed Zorro cards.
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Does the FPGA Arcade really come with USB now or is that a future upgrade? Can the expansion port be stack-able for multiple cards? When & $ for 060? Can it boot from USB?
Mist seems nice, can it boot from USB? I think the ram needs to be increased . . .
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@Mechy
You are right and wrong same time. It doesn't need to have limitattions of A1200 or A4000. All I'm asking is support for excisting accelerators and Zorro cards.
Build new board with all of those limitations would be stupid. I would offer Super fast cip ram, Super fast and realibale Zorro II/III and PCI
This way people could use their 040/060 accelerators, without needing to buy Super expensive A4000 accelerator or new A1200 accelerator. It is possible to have Zorro III with A1200 accelerator. PCI would be essential for those who doesn't have all needed Zorro cards.
why do all that when you are 1 step away from a new motherboard with the cpu/ram onboard which would allow you to make it all faster and fix the bottlenecks, exhisting accelerators etc are bottlenecks as is zorro. the way to make everything super fast (pci) is to bypass zorro3 and hook it to the cpu(like what grex tries to do). other options are fix buster,which would be possible but costly.
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And I can buy a mobo ready to rock - Where and How Much ($) ? ? ?
I can't tell if you are being facetious,you totally missed my point, or if you are serious.
:confused:
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Does the FPGA Arcade really come with USB now or is that a future upgrade? Can the expansion port be stack-able for multiple cards? When & $ for 060? Can it boot from USB?
The old FPGA Arcade had PS2 ports but now there seems to be an option for dual USB ports instead. I don't fully understand so I will refer you to this page:
http://www.fpgaarcade.com/news/
Mist seems nice, can it boot from USB? I think the ram needs to be increased . . .
Mist had proper USB from the beginning which is one of it's strong points. The USB driver and filesystem would have to be in flash (using some kind of MAPROM support for a cold boot) but I don't know if this possible.
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I don't really get the Mist disign, as it looks like it doesn't have enough memory.
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I can't tell if you are being facetious,you totally missed my point, or if you are serious.
:confused:
A common goal is great if it can be done . . . I get it!
I was serious . . . (never mess with someone that has the skills) The recreation of a A1000 mobo is great, but what if you don't have the tech skills or time to buy a board and parts to do it yourself?
Can one be purchased ready to rock? And what about expansions? Can it be done for a reasonable cost (not cheap I know).
I'm curious . . .
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On the Amiga 30 party in Amsterdam has Jens annonces the Amiga Reloaded. He has bought all Custom chips from over the world.
It will fit in an Amiga 500 and Amiga 1200 case.
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A common goal is great if it can be done . . . I get it!
I was serious . . . (never mess with someone that has the skills) The recreation of a A1000 mobo is great, but what if you don't have the tech skills or time to buy a board and parts to do it yourself?
Can one be purchased ready to rock? And what about expansions? Can it be done for a reasonable cost (not cheap I know).
I'm curious . . .
The point i was trying to make is if one man can design this,imagine what could of been done if all of the amiga community got behind making new boards with better features. Granted you can only go so far with real 060's but a board with 060,ram,sata(scsi or ide or whatever) with fast usb and ethernet local to the cpu,all in one would make for a reliable machine and no need for a accelerator(although the flot could be left there for later fpga addon or whatever).
To answer your questions, no they were a project you had to build. He also made a 060 card for it and it had ide. he also engineered a picassoII gfx card for it among other things. the pcboards themselves were not very costly.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.gb97816.homepage.t-online.de/&prev=search
http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/gba1000/gba1000.htm
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The point i was trying to make is if one man can design this,imagine what could of been done if all of the amiga community got behind making new boards with better features. Granted you can only go so far with real 060's but a board with 060,ram,sata(scsi or ide or whatever) with fast usb and ethernet local to the cpu,all in one would make for a reliable machine and no need for a accelerator(although the flot could be left there for later fpga addon or whatever).
To answer your questions, no they were a project you had to build. He also made a 060 card for it and it had ide. he also engineered a picassoII gfx card for it among other things. the pcboards themselves were not very costly.
http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.gb97816.homepage.t-online.de/&prev=search
http://www.illuwatar.se/project_pages/gba1000/gba1000.htm
I understood that, its just getting them all to work together . . . Amiga-land would have it made - extra sweet. A new machine created like that would do me for a long time . . . Here's to dreaming of co-operation, because reality sucks . . .
I checked out the project some time ago. Nice with a 060 . . . But not available ready made. I was hoping that someone had better news than me . . .
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Wouldn't owning an Amiga 1200/4000/CD 32 solve your problem?
Until the old hardware starts to die on you. I think that new AGA compatible hardware would keep the retro hardware community alive for a lot longer.
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The c64 is big in europe and uk etc still. Sadly not as much in the USA,but my c64 from 1983 is still going,and i have kept my 128dcr's etc.
Why reinvent the wheel. there are plenty of working aga amigas out there needing a good home,and if you shop smart they can be had for reasonable prices.
It amazes me how much time and effort people spend trying to get around the real stuff out there.
I see A4000's go for reasonable prices on ebay and the worst case they might need caps to make them reliable-just avoid ones with battery damage. add a cf for a hd and away you go.
I wanted an A4000 to replace my old A4000/030 that I sold when I really needed the money. I've purchased 5 different A4000D and an A4000T - they all had hardware problems and ultimately ended up in booting to a colored screen. No matter of cleaning or basic maintenance would get them back and functional. I assume they needed new capacitors, which is beyond my soldering ability. The cost to have them repaired was high. I sold them for parts and fortunately recouped most of the money paid.
The bottom line is, even with how well engineered Amiga hardware was, there is an end of life on all of it. It really seems like there must be some market for an AGA retro hardware solution that would offer good compatibility, modern video output and USB.
I might be dreaming but it just seems like there must be a market worldwide.
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It would be nice if they could come up with something like miniMIG AGA. Could they not use at least the 030 and FPGA for custom chips?
My 4000 is dead and it is too expensive to replace. All of them had the same battery damage.
Yes, it would be nice.
My experience too. I wanted an A4000 really badly to replace my old one. They all managed to get them to boot up long enough to get screen shots, sell them to me, and then they arrived and all had boot problems. I was a fool enough times trying to get a functional unit.
I would pay for an AGA hardware based system that ran classic AmigaOS.
I'd also pay separately for a copy of the current AmigaOS that ran on x86 hardware.
-Nyle
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Just get a real Amiga and be done with it. If you don't have the money save up for it. I would spend my hard earned money on REAL Amiga hardware vs some hacked micro computer that is pretty much worthless and has zero monetary value after purchased.
Rich
I have an A1200 that I enjoy with 030, CDROM, HDD but it won't live forever and it has no modern output or input ports so if my multi-sync CTX monitor dies I'll be stuck with the old 1084S in the closet.
A lot of the old hardware is dying over time and finding someone to fix it is costly. I would think more costly than buying a new AGA compatible system. I could be wrong.
-Nyle
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I wanted an A4000 to replace my old A4000/030 that I sold when I really needed the money. I've purchased 5 different A4000D and an A4000T - they all had hardware problems and ultimately ended up in booting to a colored screen. No matter of cleaning or basic maintenance would get them back and functional. I assume they needed new capacitors, which is beyond my soldering ability. The cost to have them repaired was high. I sold them for parts and fortunately recouped most of the money paid.
The bottom line is, even with how well engineered Amiga hardware was, there is an end of life on all of it. It really seems like there must be some market for an AGA retro hardware solution that would offer good compatibility, modern video output and USB.
I might be dreaming but it just seems like there must be a market worldwide.
the aga chipset is quite robust even being old, not much fails in 4000s other than caps,ram etc-battery damage is also a bad one. All the ttl level chips can still be bought from places like mouser etc. having a motherboard and 3640 capped runs under $100 so that doesnt seem crazy to me. It sounds like you gave up due to lack of experience. Sadly all the info to make these machines go is on the net. I am confident i have enough parts and such for my 4000's to easily outlive me.
We have the code to make new pals/gals etc for most machines like the 3000 and some accelerators.
The programmable parts will usually fail before the major chipset,just because PLD's/eproms/fpga/cpld/microcontrollers etc can suffer from bit rot and lose their contents.Even so i think you can expect 20 years or more from them.
The one other common failure on the 4lk is on the 3640 accelerator, when a cap leaks it often eats a trace under the cap. its not too hard to fix usually. Of course there are the variables of what stupid people do to these machines to damage them. I have seen some carnage caused by people who shouldn't be messing in hardware but didnt have the sense to realize it.
You will find these old Hmos/Nmos chips will likely go on 60+ years.. the c64 is already over 32+ years old
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the aga chipset is quite robust even being old, not much fails in 4000s other than caps,ram etc-battery damage is also a bad one. All the ttl level chips can still be bought from places like mouser etc. having a motherboard and 3640 capped runs under $100 so that doesnt seem crazy to me. It sounds like you gave up due to lack of experience. Sadly all the info to make these machines go is on the net. I am confident i have enough parts and such for my 4000's to easily outlive me.
Well let's see, I didn't see anything that looked like battery leakage but I imagine it can be hard to detect if well cleaned. All batteries had been removed and nothing looked to be discolored like pictures I've seen of leakage. I built my own power supply with a modern power supply with correct A4000D power connector to test to make sure it wasn't a power supply issue. I replaced the RAM, I had a box of the correct SIMMs from other systems. Did a general cleaning and made certain all the socketed chips were seated properly, etc. So I guess, sure I stopped from lack of experience on what other components to swap that were readily available. I don't know where you are getting the motherboard and 3640 re-capped for $100 but all the places that I checked with wanted a lot more than that. I had sent an accelerator card to France once and spent a big chunk of change to get back a board that didn't work. I suspect that a recap is what was required.
The one other common failure on the 4lk is on the 3640 accelerator, when a cap leaks it often eats a trace under the cap. its not too hard to fix usually. Of course there are the variables of what stupid people do to these machines to damage them. I have seen some carnage caused by people who shouldn't be messing in hardware but didnt have the sense to realize it.
I always stay within the frame of what I know how to do and not to do. I wouldn't try to replace capacitors or repair a trace without additional training. My soldering is limited to tinning leads for joining wires and joining copper pipe fittings. Wouldn't dream of damaging an old system by going beyond that.
I also think that there are a lot of people out there that enjoy the retro Amiga scene or at least watch to see where it's at that would not at all be interested in doing board level repairs. I still think that they are a valuable addition to the community but this might just point to the need for a source of retro AGA hardware. I hope Jens can come through and make a modern AGA motherboard with his stock of AGA chips.
You will find these old Hmos/Nmos chips will likely go on 60+ years.. the c64 is already over 32+ years old
The C64 also just got a brand new motherboard made for it so that you can populate the new board with chips. This is a great refresh and is something that I think Amiga desperately needs. I've got my fingers crossed that Jens can pull off some form of AGA motherboard with modern video output, I/O(USB), and SATA support. That would be amazing and certainly extend the lifespan of retro Amiga hardware for those of us who are good technicians but not hobbyist electrical engineers. ;^)
Keep on Amiga'ing.
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I don't know where you are getting the motherboard and 3640 re-capped for $100 but all the places that I checked with wanted a lot more than that. I had sent an accelerator card to France once and spent a big chunk of change to get back a board that didn't work. I suspect that a recap is what was required.
It was about 100 bucks from Amigakit, sent off my motherboard and 3640 to them and it's been running awesomely ever since, well minus the funky OS side things I've done to it ;)
slaapliedje
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You may be interested in the MiST FPGA too (= Minimig with bigger FPGA
I'm a bit confused about what FPGA baord this is.
I'd been assuming that this was reference to the MilkyMist FPGA board
http://m-labs.hk/m1.html
But just doing a google brought back a different board, without the Milky at the front...
http://harbaum.org/till/mist/index.shtml
I understand that someone has an AGA updated Minimig, which I again had thought was for the MilkyMist, but perhaps its for the Mist board (NOT for Milkymist)
Can you help clarify which one would be correct to run Amiga stuff on, particularly for AGA?
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If you don't want software emulation, and if you don't want FPGA reimplementations, then perhaps this is more for you:
Jens's Amiga Reloaded project:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=1028046
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I'm a bit confused about what FPGA baord this is.
I'd been assuming that this was reference to the MilkyMist FPGA board
http://m-labs.hk/m1.html
But just doing a google brought back a different board, without the Milky at the front...
http://harbaum.org/till/mist/index.shtml
I understand that someone has an AGA updated Minimig, which I again had thought was for the MilkyMist, but perhaps its for the Mist board (NOT for Milkymist)
Can you help clarify which one would be correct to run Amiga stuff on, particularly for AGA?
http://harbaum.org/till/mist/index.shtml
http://somuch.guru/minimig/minimig-mist/
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It was about 100 bucks from Amigakit, sent off my motherboard and 3640 to them and it's been running awesomely ever since, well minus the funky OS side things I've done to it ;)
slaapliedje
Sounds like you got lucky, I've read too many posts about waiting and waiting for items to come back from repair from them. $100 is certainly a reasonable fee to re-cap both the motherboard and the 3640 though.
I am glad that it worked out for you.
-Nyle
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If you don't want software emulation, and if you don't want FPGA reimplementations, then perhaps this is more for you:
Jens's Amiga Reloaded project:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?p=1028046
I've been hoping that Jens would come out with his AGA project for some time now. He supposedly reverse engineered most of the AGa chipset. In this case he's going to use existing stock of old chips. Hopefully, a full replacement motherboard modernized.
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I've been hoping that Jens would come out with his AGA project for some time now. He supposedly reverse engineered most of the AGa chipset. In this case he's going to use existing stock of old chips. Hopefully, a full replacement motherboard modernized.
There is a guy that calls himself maccaps on ebay i think it is:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amiga-A4000-Re-Cap-Service-/181795613932?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a53dcecec
he also has a web page i believe.
I have a c64reloaded and its a neet board.
The amiga board jens is doing infortunately needs alot of dongles and is a 1200 style board. i want a 4k board with onboard 060 preferrably without all the bottle necks of the 1200.
Jens has supposedly bought up the world supply of aga chips i hear ;/
mech
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There is a guy that calls himself maccaps on ebay i think it is:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amiga-A4000-Re-Cap-Service-/181795613932?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a53dcecec
he also has a web page i believe.
I have a c64reloaded and its a neet board.
The amiga board jens is doing infortunately needs alot of dongles and is a 1200 style board. i want a 4k board with onboard 060 preferrably without all the bottle necks of the 1200.
Jens has supposedly bought up the world supply of aga chips i hear ;/
mech
That's what the article seemed to imply about Jens and the AGA supply. Where did you see the additional details on the board Jens is working on? I'd suspect he'd want to use boards he's designed to fill in the gaps. I agree, I'd love to see a more modern AGA board myself.
Have you used the guy on eBay to redo any boards yourself?
-Nyle
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That's what the article seemed to imply about Jens and the AGA supply. Where did you see the additional details on the board Jens is working on? I'd suspect he'd want to use boards he's designed to fill in the gaps. I agree, I'd love to see a more modern AGA board myself.
Have you used the guy on eBay to redo any boards yourself?
-Nyle
I dont recall where i saw the details on jens stuff, sorry.
As for caps, i do my own and have been for 20 years now, i have recapped many a board for others,but i hate doing it,you almost have to put a gun to my head lol. the only thing worse those is changing 72pin simm sockets :)
I just suggested the maccaps guy as a solution, i dont know much about his work, hopefuly he isnt doing silly stuff like using tantalums and ceramics in place of electrolytics in the power circuits.
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i want a 4k board with onboard 060 preferrably without all the bottle necks of the 1200.
The a1200 is simpler and the only bottle neck is the cpu slot, which if you're using a bus board with it's own cpu is not much of a problem. Although the problem then becomes the form factor.
The a4000 would be much more complex and therefore expensive and in comparison the improvements possible would be minor.
I'd much rather see a standard form factor board using an off the shelf I/O controller with an upgraded AGA and a cpu that outperforms the fastest 060. I think we have a way to go before that is possible though.
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Myself, I would love to see an ATX form factor board with AGA, 040/060 socket, and Zorro slots. Using a standard ATX power supply too. KS 3.9 on a large single EEPROM, on-board Indivison, USB would also be awesome. No daughter cards or things hanging off other chips - just a nice and clean layout.
One can dream...
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Myself, I would love to see an ATX form factor board with AGA, 040/060 socket, and Zorro slots. Using a standard ATX power supply too. KS 3.9 on a large single EEPROM, on-board Indivison, USB would also be awesome. No daughter cards or things hanging off other chips - just a nice and clean layout.
Kickstart should be in flash & I'm not convinced about Zorro. It's too slow and the cards are too expensive. I can see that someone with a stack of Zorro cards might see it as a positive, but I'd rather have m.2 and PCIe slots.
Using modern ram so that you can dma from disk and have the cpu fetching while aga is saturating the "chip" bus. If you reimplement AGA then it can also run the blitter at the same time and you may as well support ~4gb of chip ram. i.e. stick 4gb of ram in it and map ram in the areas that aren't needed for I/o cards.
Use a socket and you could start with an FPGA for CPU+AGA and switch to an ASIC later.
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There is a guy that calls himself maccaps on ebay i think it is:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Amiga-A4000-Re-Cap-Service-/181795613932?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a53dcecec
he also has a web page i believe.
I have a c64reloaded and its a neet board.
The amiga board jens is doing infortunately needs alot of dongles and is a 1200 style board. i want a 4k board with onboard 060 preferrably without all the bottle necks of the 1200.
Jens has supposedly bought up the world supply of aga chips i hear ;/
mech
Here: " http://maccaps.com/MacCaps/Repair_Service.html ".
Some good reviews and positive feedback on that site. Looks to be good and reliable. Will probably send my A2000 to him for cleaning/capping soon.
Chris