Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: ElPolloDiabl on April 14, 2015, 02:53:47 AM
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These will be available from kipper2k:
http://www.kipper2k.com/kickstarts.html (http://www.kipper2k.com/kickstarts.html)
I definitely want those for my systems. :)
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These will be available from kipper2k:
http://www.kipper2k.com/kickstarts.html
I definitely want those for my systems. :)
Nice! I wonder about performance - i.e., weren't the original ROM's something like 160 or 200ns? Wonder if the bus can support anything faster? :lol:
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Doesn't matter if the chip is rated faster. Whatever clock is used is the speed the data is doled out.
So, even if the chip is rated at 50ns, if the buss and clock speed is 100ns, the speed is 100ns.
I may have that backwards, but a faster chip won't matter! :confused:
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So what are the benefits ?
Will there be released a new updated kickstart or.... ?
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I want this! Will be so much easier to try out my custom kickst on my Amigas, no more burning new ROM's left and right, just power off and plugin a programmer and done! Also two is great when testing modifications.
This will sell like hot cakes :)
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Ya know, I was asking about something like this a while ago and everybody told me it couldn't be done even tho I had heard of something like it a few years back!
WAY TO GO KIPPER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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I wouldn't mind to have one of these "kickflash" if it used 2MB flash instead so I could use a 1MB rom with Poseidon/PFS/updated graphics.library/updated icon.library/updated exec.library/68060.library/updated scsi.device/fat95... I'd like to boot with less resets due to loading rom modules and also to be able to easily interchange data even if my HD dies.
Well, in fact 1MB would be enough as long as I could use original roms (as emergency and for re-programming) and the complete megabyte for a single rom. I won't boot my 1200 with kickstart 1.3
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These will be available from kipper2k:
http://www.kipper2k.com/kickstarts.html (http://www.kipper2k.com/kickstarts.html)
I definitely want those for my systems. :)
This would be a better product if it contained several megabytes, maybe even a couple dozen to allow storage of any stock or custom ROMs that may be wanted. With simple logic and r/w settings allowing a software switch to list and or choose the desired ROMs.
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So this does not allow you to write to the roms from software need hardware ?
is it not like that zorro thing , what am i thinking of ?
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So this does not allow you to write to the roms from software need hardware ?
That is what it says.
However it should be possible to modify your motherboard to allow writing to the flash chip. At the very least you'd need to hook up a write strobe from the cpu to the flash chip, because by default the kickstart socket doesn't have any way of signalling a write.
You might want to put in a "write protect" switch so that software couldn't accidentally (or deliberately) rewrite your kickstart without you realising. It's easier safer to require you to remove the rom and put it in a programmer.
I'm not that jazzed about the optical sensor. I preferred the ctrl amiga amiga for 10 seconds switching that I had on my old (unfortunately dead) kickstart switcher. I don't know how that worked as there is no reset line to the roms either, it possibly just monitored the address bus???
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These will be available from kipper2k:
http://www.kipper2k.com/kickstarts.html (http://www.kipper2k.com/kickstarts.html)
I definitely want those for my systems. :)
Hopefully he sorts out the mentioned licencing and gets the product rolling. I designed and produced a similar tidy solution around 6 years ago (see attached) which was aimed as a simple flash based ROM replacement for anything A500 upwards. The ROM modules were intended to be sold blank, so avoiding issues of needing licences for the product; and programmed using a purpose built low cost programmer connected to the Amiga parallel port. I also developed all the Amiga software for controlling the programmer, which included facilities for manipulating ROM data (odd/even split/combine, verification, etc) and other fancy features.
Unfortunately I'm an electronics engineer; I'm not into retail supply, so needed someone else to do sales. It was all rather disappointing after talking to a number of Amiga retailers who were all keen to know more, then sending away a number of free samples, only to never hear anything back. Even a simple "sorry, not interested" would have been fine, or at least some kind of response to repeated follow ups.
And that was that....
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That truly looks amazing, Anthony. It is sad no one ever got back to you; perhaps with the renewed interest within the community there might be someone to take your project on.
(When in October do you get back to the world of the warm?)
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Hopefully he sorts out the mentioned licencing and gets the product rolling. I designed and produced a similar tidy solution around 6 years ago (see attached) which was aimed as a simple flash based ROM replacement for anything A500 upwards. The ROM modules were intended to be sold blank, so avoiding issues of needing licences for the product; and programmed using a purpose built low cost programmer connected to the Amiga parallel port. I also developed all the Amiga software for controlling the programmer, which included facilities for manipulating ROM data (odd/even split/combine, verification, etc) and other fancy features.
Unfortunately I'm an electronics engineer; I'm not into retail supply, so needed someone else to do sales. It was all rather disappointing after talking to a number of Amiga retailers who were all keen to know more, then sending away a number of free samples, only to never hear anything back. Even a simple "sorry, not interested" would have been fine, or at least some kind of response to repeated follow ups.
And that was that....
You would think this would be the sort of thing amigaKit would pick up
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@Castellen
You could have tried to open your own micro business from a web site without investing much. Then if it doesn't work it doesn't. With a degree and some good skills you probably could expand it to other stuff later and grow a bit, and then grow more later... And then.. Ah forget it:)
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You would think this would be the sort of thing amigaKit would pick up
Yeah, you would.
Jens walked away from his completed design while the Amiga rights were still in circulation. Nobody has offered any similar device (no, that wossname thing that is some kind of early boot does not count).
Not until private persons havr been able to design and build these themselves has there been any movement. And _still_ no reaction from any commercial entities. You really have to wonder why.
Is there some kind of secret handshake among the last sellers of things Amiga to not do any unit that could be set up to be sold with an unlicensed Kickstart rom in it???
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You would think this would be the sort of thing amigaKit would pick up
That you would. I'm still at a loss on why I never heard back from any of the multiple dealers after sending engineering samples for evaluation. It was fully functional and very simple to use (which was the entire point of the product), there were detailed instructions, the software included detailed AmigaGuide online help. And I was more than willing to produce any form of additional user documentation required. It's not like I was pushing some kind of half-arsed minimal effort hack-up.
I can only think they were concerned about guaranteed supply from a private individual, which I would understand. Maybe there was something around potential licencing issues or a potential for a legal can of worms? While I developed all of the hardware and software from scratch and the ROMs were supplied blank, there was the potential for the product to be used for piracy of licenced software, in the same way that selling a blank EPROM, CD, hard drive or floppy disk can be used to hold illegal copies of software.
That being said, why did no-one bother saying so? Just a "thanks for your hard work, but we can't on-sell this due to xxxxx" would have been great.
Unfortunately I just wasn't in a position to set up online sales, plus I'm far from an expert at such things. At the time I was working six simultaneous jobs, including international Amiga hardware service/support. The FlashROM project evolved out of an idea while developing my own Amiga hardware debugging tools - so I gradually developed that as I had a few hours spare between other jobs. The idea was to deliver something basic initally; then based around demand and user feedback, produce additional hardware such as higher capacity ROM modules and other Amiga hardware. But obviously that never eventuated. You never know, I might pick it up again one day.
While the FlashROM modules were nothing special, the design of the parallel port based programmer was fairly clever and flexible with what it could do - so for example would probably be capable of programming the Kipper2k modules without having to buy an expensive programmer.
Anyway.... Dan, I'll hopefully be out of this icy hole in late October. Planning to resume Amiga hardware service soon after that. Keep an eye on the website (http://amiga.serveftp.net).
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Thanks for the update Anthony. Stay safe until then.
Dan
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That you would. I'm still at a loss on why I never heard back from any of the multiple dealers after sending engineering samples for evaluation. It was fully functional and very simple to use (which was the entire point of the product), there were detailed instructions, the software included detailed AmigaGuide online help. And I was more than willing to produce any form of additional user documentation required. It's not like I was pushing some kind of half-arsed minimal effort hack-up.
I can only think they were concerned about guaranteed supply from a private individual, which I would understand. Maybe there was something around potential licencing issues or a potential for a legal can of worms? While I developed all of the hardware and software from scratch and the ROMs were supplied blank, there was the potential for the product to be used for piracy of licenced software, in the same way that selling a blank EPROM, CD, hard drive or floppy disk can be used to hold illegal copies of software.
That being said, why did no-one bother saying so? Just a "thanks for your hard work, but we can't on-sell this due to xxxxx" would have been great.
Unfortunately I just wasn't in a position to set up online sales, plus I'm far from an expert at such things. At the time I was working six simultaneous jobs, including international Amiga hardware service/support. The FlashROM project evolved out of an idea while developing my own Amiga hardware debugging tools - so I gradually developed that as I had a few hours spare between other jobs. The idea was to deliver something basic initally; then based around demand and user feedback, produce additional hardware such as higher capacity ROM modules and other Amiga hardware. But obviously that never eventuated. You never know, I might pick it up again one day.
While the FlashROM modules were nothing special, the design of the parallel port based programmer was fairly clever and flexible with what it could do - so for example would probably be capable of programming the Kipper2k modules without having to buy an expensive programmer.
Anyway.... Dan, I'll hopefully be out of this icy hole in late October. Planning to resume Amiga hardware service soon after that. Keep an eye on the website (http://amiga.serveftp.net).
We did have a long and lengthy discussion on these. I think at the time, dealers were very worried about licencing, plus I was told you were away for a while (6 years?).
Your correct, its an awesome bit of kit. The samples are working well. We have the 4x roms here being used for testing. Did have one or two go corrupt for what ever reason, simple 5 sec wipe and 2 min reprogram and fine again.
It can also take 1MB ROMS fine. Been doing lots of tests since you sent samples.
The software is also great, I personally prefer the text version to the gui.
So if you want any info or feedback, please let me know.
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I think at the time, dealers were very worried about licencing
What issue is there with licensing if they are shipped blank? Would it help if they were shipped programmed with aros 68k?
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We did have a long and lengthy discussion on these. I think at the time, dealers were very worried about licencing, plus I was told you were away for a while (6 years?).
Your correct, its an awesome bit of kit. The samples are working well. We have the 4x roms here being used for testing. Did have one or two go corrupt for what ever reason, simple 5 sec wipe and 2 min reprogram and fine again.
It can also take 1MB ROMS fine. Been doing lots of tests since you sent samples.
The software is also great, I personally prefer the text version to the gui.
So if you want any info or feedback, please let me know.
B*llsh*t, like always...
There are too many bad guys in the Amiga community... They use Amiga like a toy to make a lot of money.
Watch AmigaKit : they know I have no job, and steal my idea of capacitors kits without any mercy...
We need all to change our mentality for saving our computer : think Amiga in the very first place, money in second, and join forces to make us stronger...
:)
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Watch AmigaKit : they know I have no job, and steal my idea of capacitors kits without any mercy...
1) I don't know about your personal life and
2) Customers were asking us for caps kits for atleast 5 years.
3) Others started selling cap kits after you, yet you didn't mention them.
Now please stay on topic.
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http://youtu.be/unqY2QD8uq8
How this is not a product is beyond me.
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1) I don't know about your personal life
If I sold various items, it's for getting money... No job = no money...
2) Customers were asking us for caps kits for atleast 5 years
I discovered the leaking capacitors in the Amiga Classics world : I started a blog in december 2009 to inform the community...
Before me, nobody here talked about capacitors...
3) Others started selling cap kits after you, yet you didn't mention them
Oh really ? I didn't know. I have other ennemies ?
Now please stay on topic
Yes : in 2010 at Essen, a friend of mine asked directly (no emails) in this show mister Tevor Dickinson about the release of a new physical Kickstart. His answer was NO : nobody have the rights, and blablabla !
@FOLLETT
Just try to understand this evidence :
- when you think money and after Amiga = you are in a destructive way for our computer
- when you think Amiga and after the money = you are in a constructive way for our computer
Anyway, the cycle PowerPC-trap-deadend seems now over, and many things will change in the Amiga life for the next months...
:)
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Before me, nobody here talked about capacitors...
thats simply not true, people are well aware of the problem. maybe not worldwide, but if you read german forums..
Oh really ? I didn't know. I have other ennemies ?
you can simply go and buy these capacitors in an electronic store, nothing complicated about that. the hard part is to solder them, or rather desolder the old ones without damaging the traces.
Yes : in 2010 at Essen, a friend of mine asked directly (no emails) in this show mister Tevor Dickinson about the release of a new physical Kickstart. His answer was NO : nobody have the rights, and blablabla !
there is aros kickstart. its free and its open. help to improve it and we will have a valid replacement. if i can help there a bit (i hope) then a proper coder surely can do more. one just need to be civil and cooperative.
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I discovered the leaking capacitors in the Amiga Classics world : I started a blog in december 2009 to inform the community...
Before me, nobody here talked about capacitors...
Sheesh, what a load of nonsense, I replaced leaking caps on A1200 boards way back at university, meaning before 2002. It has always been a well known issue, and not just with Amiga, but all computers.
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I discovered the leaking capacitors in the Amiga Classics world : I started a blog in december 2009 to inform the community...
Before me, nobody here talked about capacitors...
C'mon, dude. I am often as a silent supporter of yours as I find you quite resourceful, but I really have to call you out on this one.
While your findings are not unappreciated, the first time I heard about reversed and leaking capacitors in Amiga systems was back before I moved to college, so that would be, at the most recent, 1998. As well, I remember one of the active dealers at the time with a HUGE tech support web site was offering re-cap services and kits.
Frankly, whether it was discussed here at AO is irrelevant. Bad and leaking capacitors are not issues which only arose in the past six years, Amiga or otherwise. Please don't belittle your other efforts by claiming this -- choose something far more brilliant.
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@wawrzon
@kolla
@LoadWB
lol !
I read many Amiga forums every days since the very beginning of the internet, and as far I remember, no capacitors discussions on them before my blog...
And in my quiet big town, the two electronic stores don't sell SMD capacitors...
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If I sold various items, it's for getting money... No job = no money...
Come to DC. I'm tripping over work the past couple years. Three jobs, 16 hours a day. I know it's a smart-ass and unhelpful response to say "What, no work? Move to where the jobs are", but, yeah. Anyhow, good luck, you're very talented, there should be something in your field near where you are! :)
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Do blank EPROM's have licensing issues too?
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Do blank EPROM's have licensing issues too?
No, of course not. But without a kickstart in it, it is rather pointless. The question then, of course, whether the potential buyers of such hardware also have a valid licence for the kickstart they want to burn/flash.
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Then why would an un-programmed device like Kipper's or Anthony's have such an issue?
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@wawrzon
@kolla
@LoadWB
lol !
I read many Amiga forums every days since the very beginning of the internet, and as far I remember, no capacitors discussions on them before my blog...
And in my quiet big town, the two electronic stores don't sell SMD capacitors...
cmon. dunno where you live, but in berlin i can go to conrad few streets futher or buy them online, i know, cause i did.
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Then why would an un-programmed device like Kipper's or Anthony's have such an issue?
I think it was more of a case of what it could be used for.
@all please can we leave the cosmos comments. Lets get back on topic (second warning).
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No, of course not. But without a kickstart in it, it is rather pointless. The question then, of course, whether the potential buyers of such hardware also have a valid licence for the kickstart they want to burn/flash.
the threats and blocking attitude against this kind of projects is not likely to have any legal standing. this is just kind of early precaution to demotivate developers before they even get anywhere. we see that kind of behaviour a lot around here, and everybody knows where the flack comes from.
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Lets get back on topic (second warning)
Yes : I sent a letter (no emails) to Ben Hermans in november 2009 about a new Kickstart too, and no answer...
:(
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I think it was more of a case of what it could be used for.
.
Think about the implications of that statement.
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the threats and blocking attitude against this kind of projects is not likely to have any legal standing. this is just kind of early precaution to demotivate developers before they even get anywhere. we see that kind of behaviour a lot around here, and everybody knows where the flack comes from.
Once again: Nobody stops anyone from selling such a piece of hardware - empty! But once again, too: The kickstart *is* copyrighted software, and to sell the EPROM *with* a kickstart, you need a licence on the software you put in. You may not like that, but it does not make this less valid. You cannot sell copyrighted software (as is, or as part of a hardware) without getting a license.
If the buyer already has Amiga hardware, he may own a license simply because the machine came with one. You may then use *this* kickstart in the EPROM, or any other Kickstart *you own*. But only that.
You can get valid kickstarts, licencensed, from Cloanto, no problem.
Thus, I'm not quite clear what you complain about. If you want to sell such EPROMs, sell them empty. If your buyer needs a kickstart image, forward to Cloanto, they sell them. If you don't want to sell them empty, the best idea I would have is to offer Cloanto a business opportunity.
Hyperion is very likely not interested in upgrading the kickstart for 68K machines, or selling licenses since it conflicts with their business interests, so it's the wrong parter to contact.
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not complaining about anything. just an observation.
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I just want easily flashable kickstart replacements that I can populate with my own custom kickstarts or even linux kernel loaders. There has been kick switchers in sale since forever, what makes flashable kickstart replacements different I do not grasp.
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@wawrzon
@kolla
@LoadWB
lol !
I read many Amiga forums every days since the very beginning of the internet, and as far I remember, no capacitors discussions on them before my blog...
And in my quiet big town, the two electronic stores don't sell SMD capacitors...
So you were active on USENET and IRC too then? Web forums is a rather new invention in this context, you know.
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Thomas Richter: you are aware that Minimig is being sold? And by companies like AmigaKit? And you are aware that most Minimigs will have at least one, and very often many kickstart files on SD cards along with ADF images of OS and games and whatever - and still Minimig is sold?! Isn't that shocking?!
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Thomas Richter: you are aware that Minimig is being sold? And by companies like AmigaKit? And you are aware that most Minimigs will have at least one, and very often many kickstart files on SD cards along with ADF images of OS and games and whatever - and still Minimig is sold?! Isn't that shocking?!
How should I know where they have their licenses from? As I said, it's not a problem to obtain licenses per se. You just have to do it. You cannot get along and sell Kickstart ROMs with 3.1 pre-installed without holding a license. Or at least, you can, but then you shouldn't be astonished if you get mail by a lawer.
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This thread is not about selling Kickstart ROMs, I don't grasp why certain people, you included, keep bringing this up. We have softkicked and used all kinds of tricks through the years to kick with custom kickstarts, this product and others are just hardware that makes this process a little easier and more convenient. Why the big hoopla about licenses?!
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This thread is not about selling Kickstart ROMs, I don't grasp why certain people, you included, keep bringing this up.
I didn't. Please go back to my post. I said from the beginning that there is no problem selling blank EPROMs or hardware that could allow to flash or burn Kickstarts into. It's a problem selling EPROMs with kickstart included. Or "a bit more of a problem". It's not impossible to get them, as I also said before.
The question rather is, how much a market is there for just the blank EEPROM if you cannot just plug it into the machine and let it go. It makes installation a bit nasty because the users have a bootstrap problem. The hardware should always include a space for placing the original ROM onto to allow booting up with the blank EEPROM underneath.
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Thomas, following what you stated (which corrects the "Industrial" perceived notion that Amiga users are thieves trading in the illegal use of intellectual property), just sell a copy of the Cloanto CD with each EMPTY Rom-able device.
May the Lord bless those who believe we are all gonnif dreck.
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I could not care less about original ROMs, I would flash all systems with my own custom kickstarts anyhow. I honestly do not understand this need to point out that selling kickstarts without licensing is illegal on a thread that is neither about selling kickstarts nor about selling EEPROMs with kickstarts. Follet's comment about dealers having issues with flashable kickstart replacements, because it potencially could be used to load unlicensed kickstarts, is just ridiculous- by same argument they should stop selling computer gear alltogether.
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Thomas, following what you stated (which corrects the "Industrial" perceived notion that Amiga users are thieves trading in the illegal use of intellectual property), just sell a copy of the Cloanto CD with each EMPTY Rom-able device.
That's pretty much what I was saying above. This, or get in touch with Cloanto in first place to get the licence on the ROM image, and put that into the ROM right away. One way or another, somebody with the rights to sell the ROM image should be included.
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No, why would I pay extra for a kickstart image that I have zero use for to be preloaded? If anything is to be preloaded, let it be AROS/68k kickstart already.
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It makes installation a bit nasty because the users have a bootstrap problem.
They don't. A bootstrap problem would be:
1. To flash it you need a bootable system
2. To boot the system you first need to flash it.
Point 1 doesn't apply because you can flash it in an eprom programmer.
Point 2 doesn't apply because you can only flash it in an eprom programmer.
If an in place flashing solution was developed then you could still say it needed to be bootstrapped using an eprom programmer, you could make the flashing programmer compatible with a kickstart switcher & boot the computer off the real rom or you could ship it with aros 68k (or even go for a combination of all three).
If the flash becomes corrupt then you'll need to be able to bootstrap it again, shipping copyright roms doesn't gain anything.
There is obviously more of a market for a chip that supports in place flashing compared to one that doesn't. I'm hoping that once people get their hands on it then a modification will be done that allows it, which will then raise the issue. But right now it's a product aimed purely at people who want to be able to burn their own roms, but don't want to wait for an eprom eraser. It's a start.
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They don't. A bootstrap problem would be:
1. To flash it you need a bootable system
2. To boot the system you first need to flash it.
Point 1 doesn't apply because you can flash it in an eprom programmer.
Point 2 doesn't apply because you can only flash it in an eprom programmer.
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Follet's comment about dealers having issues with flashable kickstart replacements, because it potencially could be used to load unlicensed kickstarts, is just ridiculous- by same argument they should stop selling computer gear alltogether.
Like hard drives, floppies, USB sticks, CD-RWs, DVD-RWs.... or maybe our countries should just levy a tax on all blank media. (:sealed: before someone hears me.)
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Like hard drives, floppies, USB sticks, CD-RWs, DVD-RWs.... or maybe our countries should just levy a tax on all blank media. (:sealed: before someone hears me.)
You mean like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_copying_levy?
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Screw it, maybe Kipper can also use Anthony's design and bypass those people whose trees obscure the forrest.