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Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Announcements and Press Releases => Topic started by: Cyborg on April 13, 2015, 11:26:17 AM
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Brussel, April 12, 2015
Contrary to some news items posted on certain websites, Hyperion Entertainment CVBA is not in a state of bankruptcy. Due to an unfortunate set of cirucmstances, the company was temporally listed as "bankrupt" despite the fact that the conditions for bankruptcy were never met and that in the eyes of the law, the company was never bankrupt.
Development of AmigaOS 4 (which recently culminated in the release of AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition) is and has been ongoing albeit that some resources had to be directed away to support the upcoming hardware of A-EON Technology.
The company is in the process of reorganizing itself by opening up its shareholdership and appointing a new exective director. More details on that will follow when all legal formalities are behind us.
Quite a few AmigaOS 4 supporters have approached us with the question what they can do to help us accelerate development of AmigaOS 4.2.
To that we have a very simple answer: please upgrade all your AmigaOS 4 capable hardware to AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition.
Not only will AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition be used as a base-line for future updates, you will also help us to accelerate AmigaOS 4.2 development!
Those of you who have other concrete ideas, we welcome to contact us.
We appreciate your support and we look forward to meet you at any of the upcoming celebrations of the Amiga's 30th birthday!
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Your post needs this link:
http://hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=160:clarification-of-current-situation&catid=38:corporate&Itemid=18
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"We dont have any money or hope of any real progress software wise, but the good news is we are NOT bankrupt.. we uh.. just have appeared to be for years now"
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You forgot
"Not enough of you have purchased AmigaOS 4.1 FE yet. Please go buy a copy soon."
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Development of AmigaOS 4 (which recently culminated in the release of AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition) is and has been ongoing albeit that some resources had to be directed away to support the upcoming hardware of A-EON Technology.
I don't know, something about the name "Final Edition" sounds pretty, well, final..
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@agami, magnetic: really??
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Taken from my mail conversation:
Yes I can confirm.
Bert DEHANDSCHUTTER
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Johannes Genberg [mailto:xxx@xxx.xx]
Verzonden: vrijdag 3 april 2015 21:49
Aan: Bert Dehandschutter
Onderwerp: Hyperion Entertainment
Hello
This is Johannes Genberg again. I've read that the bankruptsy of Hyperion has been overturned. Can you confirm that the company is no longer bankrupt and that they have return to normal business?
/ Johannes Genberg
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they have return to normal business?
..what would that be? e-begging? ;)
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@thread
the trolling on this thread stops now. if you want to criticize, go for it, but argue your points. snippy little jabs are childish and only designed to inflame. any more nonsense in this thread will earn the poster a temporary vacation from the site. this will be the only warning.
-- eliyahu
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That's the first iron fist I've seen on this site. Where'd it come from? It makes me feel strange.
@thread
the trolling on this thread stops now. if you want to criticize, go for it, but argue your points. snippy little jabs are childish and only designed to inflame. any more nonsense in this thread will earn the poster a temporary vacation from the site. this will be the only warning.
-- eliyahu
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Thanks for clarifying Cyborg. I haven't upgraded to Final Edition yet but will be doing so soon.
I'm longing for 4.2.
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@thread
the trolling on this thread stops now. if you want to criticize, go for it, but argue your points. snippy little jabs are childish and only designed to inflame. any more nonsense in this thread will earn the poster a temporary vacation from the site. this will be the only warning.
-- eliyahu
I wish Hyperion all the very best. I fail to see any trolling in this thread however. Unless it's been removed. Sarcasm and jibes yes. But that is common in forums. This one especially. I think you are overreacting.
Gertsy.
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I wish Hyperion all the very best. I fail to see any trolling in this thread however. Unless it's been removed. Sarcasm and jibes yes. But that is common in forums. This one especially. I think you are overreacting.
Gertsy.
I agree entirely, I just didn't have the danglies to say anything earlier for fear of getting a short ban. If we can't have a laugh and a joke, then it doesn't leave much left does it. :)
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I wish Hyperion all the very best. I fail to see any trolling in this thread however. Unless it's been removed. Sarcasm and jibes yes. But that is common in forums. This one especially. I think you are overreacting.
maybe so. i'll keep your concerns in mind. thanks for the feedback. :)
-- eliyahu
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@eliyahu
Yes dad.
It's a little hard not to be snippy when Hyperion don't seem to understand the meaning of the word Clarification. And when their response to a fairly constructive question is so laconic that one gets the impression that they must be paying by the word over there.
And what the f#@& is a concrete idea? How do I know I have one? And what have they done since the mediation with Amiga Inc. that will give me any confidence that any "concrete" ideas will actually be considered.
I can tell you right now which ideas Hyperion will not consider be concrete, irrespective of the amount of supporting data:
- Porting of AmigaOS to another ISA
- Opening up the source of AmigaOS
- Sub-licensing AmigaOS to another company
As in ideas that can actually make a difference to the community.
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:hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer: :hammer:
(http://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/s--lr7j0kkg--/18j49tap7ym2ojpg.jpg)
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the fact remains that with os4 pretty every opportunity is taken to ask for money, especially that it is always justified with supporting the system and its future. i have not seen it with amiga, morphos or aros projects otherwise.
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the fact remains that with os4 pretty every opportunity is taken to ask for money, especially that it is always justified with supporting the system and its future. i have not seen it with amiga, morphos or aros projects otherwise.
Ridiculous. Don't buy it then, if you don't like it. :lol: :lol: :lol: :roflmao: :laughing:
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Ridiculous. Don't buy it then, if you don't like it. :lol: :lol: :lol: :roflmao: :laughing:
That's the beauty of capitalism. People are voting with their wallets which is why Hyperion is such straits in spite of all the fan-boy posts and cheerleaders extolling the virtues of Hyperion and PPC CPUs. If OS4 was a decent product sold at a decent price, things would be vastly different but it's a "Frankenstein's Monster of an OS" that can't even compete with Windows 98 when comparing features. OS4 has been a dead-end for quite some time as has the PPC architecture but the fan-boys here want you to believe otherwise. And since A-Eon bought Amiga.org and AmigWorld.net I find the actions of the moderators on both sites to be suspect and definitely it's a conflict of interest to be working for A-Eon and moderating the comments of forum members who are critical of OS4 and A-Eon. It seems that even the slightest hint of criticism leveled at Hyperion or A-Eon brings warnings from the moderators that the thread will be locked or the user banned.
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Yet another thread that shows why the 'Amiga' community is shrinking and will continue to do so.
What sane newcomer would invest either time or money in a community that appears to enjoy infighting more than any other activity.
It's a sad rump (with notable exceptions) of what used to be one of the great communities.
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On contrary, I see the so called classic community is still thriving. What shrinks is the NG community, but not because of the lack of monolithic thought :)
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Yet another thread that shows why the 'Amiga' community is shrinking and will continue to do so.
What sane newcomer would invest either time or money in a community that appears to enjoy infighting more than any other activity.
It's a sad rump (with notable exceptions) of what used to be one of the great communities.
I got into Amiga stuff in 2013 and now have many of them including a AmigaOneX1000 I got in feb 2015. I am new and spend lot of money and could not be happier.
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@apsturk
Hope you are enjoying the new system. It's good to see even more X1000 users.
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Yes, nice one Apsturk, welcome to the club!
hey, nice graphics card there ;-)
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Yet another thread that shows why the 'Amiga' community is shrinking and will continue to do so.
What sane newcomer would invest either time or money in a community that appears to enjoy infighting more than any other activity.
It's a sad rump (with notable exceptions) of what used to be one of the great communities.
the foras are where people go to rant, or to pat each other on the shoulder. pick your choice. where and if things get done you may not even notice that here.
On contrary, I see the so called classic community is still thriving. What shrinks is the NG community, but not because of the lack of monolithic thought :)
one needs to make his own mind as to where investing limited time. knowledge and motivation is safest. genuine amiga and it associated projects both hardware and software is a probably the safest especially if where the projects are open and community driven.
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Are you contractually obligated to comment when someone posts they've received their X1000?
There were no such comments when I received my Indivision 1200 AGA MK2cr or when I got my copy of AmigaOS 4.1 Classic.
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the fact remains that with os4 pretty every opportunity is taken to ask for money, especially that it is always justified with supporting the system and its future. i have not seen it with amiga, morphos or aros projects otherwise.
Please clarify.
AFAIK user had to buy 4.0 then 4.1, but that was way back in 2008 or so, after that, they did give us alot of free updates and boing bags. Then they put 4.1 FE on sale, for a very small amount. Besides no one forced any one to buy anything.
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My main problem with the "NG" is that there's nothing NG about them, they have the exact same limitations as old AmigaOS3 and suffer from the exact same problems.
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@kolla
A-EON is involved in a few projects at the moment which involve both OS 3 and OS 4 versions to be developed at the same time.
The developer involved has commented on the huge differences and advancements between OS 3.9 and the current 4.1 in terms of core libraries. This has slowed development down as a lot of AmigaOS 3.9 functions have to be patched or written from scratch.
It would be great from a developers point of view if OS 3.x was keeping pace with OS 4.1 in development terms as it would make porting a lot easier.
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My main problem with the "NG" is that there's nothing NG about them, they have the exact same limitations as old AmigaOS3 and suffer from the exact same problems.
You mean like only being able to run on genuine Amiga, being limited to about a 75 MHz processor, with no modern expansion bus or video card suppor support, right?
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Hmm, so what all this mean is...
We still got AROS for the poor people amongst us (ME!), MorphOS for those of us who have a spare few bucks to spend (Me at some time in the past), and OS 4.x for people who have so much money they look for ways to throw it away, such as a $2000 plus dollar hobbie computer.
Now what I'm excited about is the fact that some day when I got money again, there should be better FPGA options to choose from. Then I can have MorphOS, AROS, and Work Bench on modern hardware seeing as I can't afford an OS 4 solution, and keeping classic Amigas fully functional and upgraded isn't exactly affordable by me anymore anyhow.
Anyhow, all Hyperion needs now is friendly customer and community relations. ;)
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You mean like only being able to run on genuine Amiga, being limited to about a 75 MHz processor, with no modern expansion bus or video card suppor support, right?
No, only being able to address the same limited ammount of RAM, no memory protection, no security, no SMP, same ancient and outdated networking stacks.
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@kolla
A-EON is involved in a few projects at the moment which involve both OS 3 and OS 4 versions to be developed at the same time.
The developer involved has commented on the huge differences and advancements between OS 3.9 and the current 4.1 in terms of core libraries. This has slowed development down as a lot of AmigaOS 3.9 functions have to be patched or written from scratch.
Hardly surprising, but just because OS4 is different does not mean it is so much better. From what I have heard, between AROS, MorphOS and OS4, it is the latter that stands out as the oddball that is tricky to support. Anyways, my understanding is that MorphOS may break away from legacy soon and become the first true Amiga NG system.
It would be great from a developers point of view if OS 3.x was keeping pace with OS 4.1 in development terms as it would make porting a lot easier.
They can target AROS instead and improve the OS too.
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Amigas can handle 1.5GB of memory?
I mean, I'm sure the OS could address it, but I don't think a 68k processor can, nor do I think you could stuff that much into an Amiga.
Then there is support of html5, DVD playback, better sound solutions, tinyGL, etc.
Sure, Amigas with OS3.1 can handle all that, right?
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Hmm, so what all this mean is...
We still got AROS for the poor people amongst us (ME!), MorphOS for those of us who have a spare few bucks to spend (Me at some time in the past), and OS 4.x for people who have so much money they look for ways to throw it away, such as a $2000 plus dollar hobbie computer.
I love the Amiga classics, but it really is a hobby. That's what makes Hyperion & A-EON properly called Platform. Let it is expensive, but it's a matter of trade circulation. Cheap available Amiga - utopia. All that is done in a sufficient amount fall in price. It's inevitable. I know that AROS community obdurate. I see that MorphOS leaders don't have vision. Exchanged for the small stuff. Pay your attention: Amiga still single-user computer! How much is rewritten to be on par with a Windows for workgroup? The truth is here. A lie is always pronounced as "We don't need it!". ixemul.library - it's humiliating. I'd rather wait for that Hyperion tired of poking POSIX dirs in AmigaOS filesystem , than the idea came to MorphOS / AROS developers..
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Amigas can handle 1.5GB of memory?
I mean, I'm sure the OS could address it, but I don't think a 68k processor can, nor do I think you could stuff that much into an Amiga.
What makes you think so? Ask AmigaKit how many 256MB BigRAMPlus cards you can use in a 5 zorro slot A4000T?
And anyways, how is that relevant? My point is that OS4 etc do not support more either, and in being OS3 "compatible", it is stuck for no good reasons.
Then there is support of html5, DVD playback, better sound solutions, tinyGL, etc.
Sure, Amigas with OS3.1 can handle all that, right?
None of that is impossible because of limitations in the OS, that is correct. What is impossible is to prevent any piece of software from monitoring and reading any address in the memory of the computer, with all the implications that has in the age of online banking etc.
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What makes you think so? Ask AmigaKit how many 256MB BigRAMPlus cards you can use in a 5 zorro slot A4000T?
And anyways, how is that relevant? My point is that OS4 etc do not support more either, and in being OS3 "compatible", it is stuck for no good reasons.
None of that is impossible because of limitations in the OS, that is correct. What is impossible is to prevent any piece of software from monitoring and reading any address in the memory of the computer, with all the implications that has in the age of online banking etc.
What makes me think so?
Because only the 040 and 060 can address that kind of memory (and then only with an mmu).
And, as I stated before, Zorro bus is too dated.
You want to run your memory via that?
Seriously, anytime you want to benchmark any Amiga against my G5 you'll see how rediculous your statements are.
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It would be great from a developers point of view if OS 3.x was keeping pace with OS 4.1 in development terms as it would make porting a lot easier.
Would it help if I ported OS4emu to Os3? It would not run OS4 native software of course but would make porting OS4 software easier.
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Would it help if I ported OS4emu to Os3? It would not run OS4 native software of course but would make porting OS4 software easier.
Imho it would pay more if you helped with aros 68k or adopted your mui netsurf frontend the last source or something like that. I dont know what os4 software would actually justify looking for compatibility except sdl or qt ports, but then even these might be easier achieved with aros.
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Anybody know if OS4.1 final edition will work on the A1200 with a ppc card. I have OS 4.1 but it isn't the final edition, is there any difference, will the final edition run faster then just OS 4.1 will eliyahu bring the hammer down on Gertsy, Will oldsmobile mike get the banhammer, stay tuned to this channel for more important facts. Gosh eli does your name have to be so hard to spell, you should get banned from this website just for that.
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Anybody know if OS4.1 final edition will work on the A1200 with a ppc card. I have OS 4.1 but it isn't the final edition, is there any difference, will the final edition run faster then just OS 4.1 will eliyahu bring the hammer down on Gertsy, Will oldsmobile mike get the banhammer, stay tuned to this channel for more important facts. Gosh eli does your name have to be so hard to spell, you should get banned from this website just for that.
:laughing:
but as for your initial question, yes, AOS4.1 FE will run on your 1200/PPC just fine. dunno what the performance difference is like on the classics. graphics performance is better on my peg2 compared with u6, though.
-- eliyahu
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Anybody know if OS4.1 final edition will work on the A1200 with a ppc card. I have OS 4.1 but it isn't the final edition, is there any difference, will the final edition run faster then just OS 4.1 will eliyahu bring the hammer down on Gertsy, Will oldsmobile mike get the banhammer, stay tuned to this channel for more important facts. Gosh eli does your name have to be so hard to spell, you should get banned from this website just for that.
There's a few videos on Youtube showing performance. I couldn't find a really good one though. Maybe you'll have better luck finding one than me? I'd be curious to see it, too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pETp6EQ5wQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWDg8qSX1eI
Hope no one gets banned! ;) :hammer:
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There's a few videos on Youtube showing performance. I couldn't find a really good one though. Maybe you'll have better luck finding one than me? I'd be curious to see it, too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pETp6EQ5wQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWDg8qSX1eI
Hope no one gets banned! ;) :hammer:
I have been banned before.
No big deal.
I still keep in touch with Franko (so does Cammy, and you don't see her around anymore, of her on accord).
And while I know that an original Amiga will with OS4 (with a PPC card), at an ungodly expense, it still won't have more than a fraction of the power of an NG system.
Also, Amigas won't run MorphOS above 1.4.
AND, when it X5000 is released, Amigas won't be able to have the ability to support what may follow (SMP, Radeon HD cards, etc).
You can try to piss in my cornflakes, but I know I'm running a better solution.
I have real Amigas, I like NG systems more.
And they DO have advantages.
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I am using an A1200T here and also my X5000. I am very much wanting to shorten the software gap between them in terms of whenever software technologies can be developed mutually for both. I think that Classic Amiga's have gone long enough without some investment in new software, but I accept that some advancements do not make sense on Classic due to the limited CPU power. However maybe in a few years time, FPGAs may make some things viable for Classic ?
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I am using an A1200T here and also my X5000. I am very much wanting to shorten the software gap between them in terms of whenever software technologies can be developed mutually for both.
understandable, but the current situation is a result of very long politic of abandonment towards amiga and there is no sign that it has changed, what concerns whomever has their say about os4. i doubt you can do anything about it, except if you had influence on the os4 development, which i doubt you have. and even if it was so, it appears that os4 had introduced a number of changes which actually enforce incompatibility. so except one wanted desperately to follow their path, which im not sure would be convenient for technical reasons one might rather concentrate on alternatives that to date appear more compatible, more flexible, open and disposable. guess, what im talking about..
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Should new FPGA or PPC accelerators become available, I would expect to see software introduced that would take advantage of the increased power.
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@wawrzon
I am sure there are ways of developing for both Classic AmigaOS and OS 4.1 mutually in terms of Workbench applications and libraries. This helps bring the development costs down and gives much needed vital investment back into Classic at the same time.
@Iggy
I have learned recently how costly real software development is, so developing FPGA solutions for Classic is one important step, then paying for software to be written for them is another expensive project. I remain positive though that solutions can be found.
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Should new FPGA or PPC accelerators become available, I would expect to see software introduced that would take advantage of the increased power.
there is already a number of software available that would take advantage of it, like regular sdl ports.
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@wawrzon
I am sure there are ways of developing for both Classic AmigaOS and OS 4.1 mutually in terms of Workbench applications and libraries. This helps bring the development costs down and gives much needed vital investment back into Classic at the same time.
but as far as i have understood you, you were talking about bringing os3 to the state on pair with os4 in order to enhance common development. you can do that without access to os4 and its sources, but then it would mean reverse engineering and reimplementation, like in case of mui4 for os4. this causes an additional (costly, as you yourself admit) effort, while aros provides already good amiga compatibility while introducing technical features on pair or probably in many cases even better than os4 itself. with aros you can actually maintain libraries for different architectures automatically side by side, without that much hassle about different interfaces, like those used on os4.
dont get me wrong, im not trying to talk you into aros, but i dont understand how and why do you want to handle parallel development on what you call "classics" and os4, if experience with existing efforts in this direction apparently prove problems, jut to name magellan or personal paint.
I have learned recently how costly real software development is, so developing FPGA solutions for Classic is one important step, then paying for software to be written for them is another expensive project. I remain positive though that solutions can be found.
if you want to develop native applications from the scratch then probably. but if you just port things over, there is already a number of enthusiasts doing it for free and the sake of it. im positive, that as soon as they may lay their hands on fpga hardware, it will boost their interest.
on the other hand i just dont see a possibility to develop huge and complex native software packages for affordable money. people may do it out of own interest, like for instance hd-rec, but i doubt you are able to provide enough funds to commission software you wish for and ensure its maintenance.
again i see here only realistic possibility to motivate people in certain directions, towards simple detailed goals by means like contributing to the bounties.
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@wawrzon
I am looking with one eye on the future too. The foundations laid now are important enablers for more complex projects later on.
The work that Amiga enthusiasts do in their spare time for little or no money is quite simply remarkable, but relying on the goodwill of these enthusiast developers is not the complete answer as we will be in the same situation in another decade with development ongoing at the same pace. So a commercial injection of capital is also needed to kickstart the software development process in a structured way.
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Would it help if I ported OS4emu to Os3? It would not run OS4 native software of course but would make porting OS4 software easier.
This is an interesting concept but what exactly does OS4Emu emulate?
I have wrapper functions for pretty mcuh all the Allocation types stuff, (ie memory, mesageports, hooks etc etc.)
What's making my life a bit hard work at the moment, is the real heavy lifting stuff, Compositing , advanced reaction features, band width limitation that make certain double buffering tecniques trivial on an NG machine but slow on Classic RTG.
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The foundations laid now are important enablers for more complex projects later on.
thats what im saying. distributed effort. reachable short range targets. but this makes cooperation necessary. and openness. i dont see that granted, when basing these efforts on os4 attitudes, where everything is locked behind seven seals.
The work that Amiga enthusiasts do in their spare time for little or no money is quite simply remarkable, but relying on the goodwill of these enthusiast developers is not the complete answer as we will be in the same situation in another decade with development ongoing at the same pace. So a commercial injection of capital is also needed to kickstart the software development process in a structured way.
yes, we have seen aeon investing insane amounts of money already. and yet where have all these investments led so far? i dont see much coordination nor far reaching concept behind it and not because of a inability or a bad will, but simply because there can not be such a concept, or it would be very difficult to come up with a genuine one, not simply reproducing customary solutions found on other systems. such a far reaching plan would imho involve giving up on anything amiga legacy and therefore would hardly end up with enough interest, as already os4 history proves.
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The only truly viable way forward is a new modern platform, with a user experience based around what we recognize as Amiga. This means throwing away compatibility with legacy sodtware, but it also means opportunities to reimplement old software concepts in a modern setting. And porting software from other platforms, and getting software support from outside of "amiga land" would also be much easier.
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The only truly viable way forward is a new modern platform, with a user experience based around what we recognize as Amiga. This means throwing away compatibility with legacy sodtware, but it also means opportunities to reimplement old software concepts in a modern setting. And porting software from other platforms, and getting software support from outside of "amiga land" would also be much easier.
I actually don't agree with that, because at that point you might as well run OSX, Windows, or Linux and use UAE to keep legacy applications.
I can see "boxing" in legacy apps so they don't prevent future OS' from implementing features that current versions of our OS cannot support.
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I actually don't agree with that, because at that point you might as well run OSX, Windows, or Linux and use UAE to keep legacy applications.
Yes, and this is currently what I do, because nothing Amiga offer me a modern alternative. Sadly, neither OSX, Windows nor other OSes offer me the Amiga experience. OSX offers the MacOS experience in a modern setting, but I want the Amiga experience in a modern setting. Don't you?
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The only truly viable way forward is a new modern platform, with a user experience based around what we recognize as Amiga. This means throwing away compatibility with legacy sodtware, but it also means opportunities to reimplement old software concepts in a modern setting. And porting software from other platforms, and getting software support from outside of "amiga land" would also be much easier.
that is pretty vague...
ok we have AmigaOS and MorphOS that aim at the moment to be binary compatible then we have Aros that is source compatible. From first SMP experimenting it is clear that SMP is not possible to integrate without API changes. I do not know how far development is. "Silly SMP" (the experimenting with SMP) is stopped, on ARIX it seems to be still in development.
How compares your ideas with what is available. And if it breaks everything and no software from Amiga compileable to it why not using f.e. Linux?
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Yes, and this is currently what I do, because nothing Amiga offer me a modern alternative. Sadly, neither OSX, Windows nor other OSes offer me the Amiga experience. OSX offers the MacOS experience in a modern setting, but I want the Amiga experience in a modern setting. Don't you?
What is the "Amiga experience" for you?
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@wawrzon
I am looking with one eye on the future too. The foundations laid now are important enablers for more complex projects later on.
The work that Amiga enthusiasts do in their spare time for little or no money is quite simply remarkable, but relying on the goodwill of these enthusiast developers is not the complete answer as we will be in the same situation in another decade with development ongoing at the same pace. So a commercial injection of capital is also needed to kickstart the software development process in a structured way.
One example is Free Pascal on AROS. There are already versions for MorphOS and Amiga 68k. Only AmigaOS is not supported because lack of developers interested in it. The project makes fantastic progress and is aiming to bring Lazarus (RAD-Environment) to Amiga. If you would directly support it it would bring potentially lots of software to our platforms. It would be a revolution for out platform. What do you think?
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Yes, and this is currently what I do, because nothing Amiga offer me a modern alternative. Sadly, neither OSX, Windows nor other OSes offer me the Amiga experience. OSX offers the MacOS experience in a modern setting, but I want the Amiga experience in a modern setting. Don't you?
In a way, I already have it.
Some of us like the changes in MorphOS (Ambient, Reggae, etc.).
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One example is Free Pascal on AROS.
Free Pascal strange on Amiga. It doesn't Amiga library sufficiently, useless. HPC was the best and Turbo Pascal 7.0 compatibly. As we will soon see a new version? Never..
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I'm am definitely in favour of having more commonality between classic and NG to help applications reach a larger audience. Something akin to the carbon library (in reverse) could make it easier to have binaries that run on both systems but with different outcomes.
It would most likely be more than a single library, and the minimum hardware spec on classic might be 040/25, but the benefit would also be a smoother transition from classic to NG as the apps you purchased will just run on NG. It would also create a brief market for 040 upgrades for classic Amigas.
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Thanks for the info, maybe I will go ahead and purchase the final edition, who knows maybe it will speed up the old A1200 over the old. Like the software just wish it ran faster, but then again the old 4.1 is just like me old and slow.
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This is an interesting concept but what exactly does OS4Emu emulate?
It does not really emulate anything, it is just an API wrapper for OS4 calls so you can run OS4 software in MorphOS natively. It includes AmigaInput, new DOS, Exec and Gfx calls and full P96 wrapper to CGX.
What's making my life a bit hard work at the moment, is the real heavy lifting stuff, Compositing , advanced reaction features,
What is missing is CompositeTags() call (for rotating and alpha blending) and I have planned to create Reaction to MUI wrapper. So far I have not invested time on it anymore.
band width limitation that make certain double buffering tecniques trivial on an NG machine but slow on Classic RTG.
WinUAE and NG Amigas are certainly fast enough to run any AmigaOS software.
Certainly OS3 can be made on par with OS4. It is just that nobody is investing time to improve OS3.
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What is the "Amiga experience" for you?
From the top of my head...
* GUI available from boot
* graphical early startup
* boot without startup-sequence is still with GUI
* top screen bar with system information
* menu pops up using RMB
* multiselect from menu creates an event chain that is executed when RMB is released
* screens with their own unique properties, resolutions, colour depths etc, private to the application or public
* Save|Use|Cancel
Plus a lot more I am sure. My point is just that nothing technically stands in the way of reimplementing what I mean with "amiga experience" in a modern and secure way. Of course, amiga programmers see this entirely differently.
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My point is just that nothing technically stands in the way of reimplementing what I mean with "amiga experience" in a modern and secure way. Of course, amiga programmers see this entirely differently.
No, I agree 100%.
It should be possible to add nearly all the old flavour though you would have to have the OS alloc your structs and use OS calls to read out library values etc, so you would need to amend your source but you could still think in much the same way.
As for the technical parts, AFAIK no CPU has _really_ made an effort to ease data sharing with the possible exception of PA-RISC. The SASOS research community might have come up with answers on how to have all 3 of sharing/security/speed.
The micro-kernel people have been battling these issues forever, though they have it both worse and better as most of them want to be unix (or so safe that nothing is shared).
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What makes me think so?
Because only the 040 and 060 can address that kind of memory (and then only with an mmu).
Not true, and also not relevant. Any 68k CPU with 32bit addressing space can deal with that ammount of RAM, given that the rest of the hardware permits it.
And, as I stated before, Zorro bus is too dated.
You want to run your memory via that?
It is not relevant for the discussion where you put that RAM. Someone could make a CPU card for A3000/A4000 with 2GB RAM on board, it is technically doable and AmigaOS would support it.
Seriously, anytime you want to benchmark any Amiga against my G5 you'll see how rediculous your statements are.
And my old minimac with 16GB RAM runs in circles around your G5, especially if you are running MorphOS that only supports one core and is limited to 2GB(?) of RAM, just like AmigaOS is. Which was my point.
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Not true, and also not relevant. Any 68k CPU with 32bit addressing space can deal with that ammount of RAM, given that the rest of the hardware permits it.
It is not relevant for the discussion where you put that RAM. Someone could make a CPU card for A3000/A4000 with 2GB RAM on board, it is technically doable and AmigaOS would support it.
And my old minimac with 16GB RAM runs in circles around your G5, especially if you are running MorphOS that only supports one core and is limited to 2GB(?) of RAM, just like AmigaOS is. Which was my point.
Would I be correct assuming that someone could do a 32 bit Microprocessor CPU with 2 Gb that AmigaOS would run on that?
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Would I be correct assuming that someone could do a 32 bit Microprocessor CPU with 2 Gb that AmigaOS would run on that?
My understanding of things...
The 68k architecture supports an address speace that is up to 32bit bit wide, meaning up to 4GB. AmigaOS also supports 32bit memory addressing, however many of those addresses are reserved (chipram, various I/O) and cannot be used as FastRAM for the CPU, which practically reduces the ammount of possible FastRAM to 2GB. And this is the same limitation, whether you are running OS3 or OS4.
I am not sure what you are asking, but someone could make 68k processor card with 2GB (gigabyte - Gb is gigabit, 2Gb would be 256MB) and AmigaOS should run fine, yes. I don't have access to WinUAE here, but how much system RAM is it possible to add to a system config in WinUAE?
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From the top of my head...
* GUI available from boot
* graphical early startup
* boot without startup-sequence is still with GUI
* top screen bar with system information
* menu pops up using RMB
* multiselect from menu creates an event chain that is executed when RMB is released
* screens with their own unique properties, resolutions, colour depths etc, private to the application or public
* Save|Use|Cancel
Plus a lot more I am sure. My point is just that nothing technically stands in the way of reimplementing what I mean with "amiga experience" in a modern and secure way. Of course, amiga programmers see this entirely differently.
the most you write is optical/desktop related. For that you could propably already use Linux, the only thing you need to rewrite would be a special desktop or you configure it in a way that is similar. Then you have a modern desktop. But it cannot run Amiga software nor is it really offering something revolutionary compared to other distributions. But you can easily start with it, develop something and show it. There are certainly people here who are interested to use it. I personally am happy with AROS and have enough to do there even though it is not supporting MP and SMP.
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You don't think I have tried with Linux and umpteen different DEs for the last 20+ years? No, you cannot just configure Linux to do the above.
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My understanding of things...
The 68k architecture supports an address speace that is up to 32bit bit wide, meaning up to 4GB. AmigaOS also supports 32bit memory addressing, however many of those addresses are reserved (chipram, various I/O) and cannot be used as FastRAM for the CPU, which practically reduces the ammount of possible FastRAM to 2GB. And this is the same limitation, whether you are running OS3 or OS4.
I am not sure what you are asking, but someone could make 68k processor card with 2GB (gigabyte - Gb is gigabit, 2Gb would be 256MB) and AmigaOS should run fine, yes. I don't have access to WinUAE here, but how much system RAM is it possible to add to a system config in WinUAE?
Actually, that IS a misunderstanding.
While the 68000 is 32 bit, early versions can only address 24bits of memory.
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But can we buy a coupon and get a free OS4 T-Shirt?
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Actually, that IS a misunderstanding.
While the 68000 is 32 bit, early versions can only address 24bits of memory.
Hence I wrote "up to", I am well aware that older 68000 and 68EC020 have smaller address space, 16bit and 24bit, but that is totally beside the point as the issue we were discussing is the upper limit. How much RAM can a modern 68SEC000 (which is the one produced still) address?
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@ Kolla Have you tried one of the smaller Linux distros? You can get Xfce desktop which is lot like you asked for.
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The 68k architecture supports an address speace that is up to 32bit bit wide, meaning up to 4GB. AmigaOS also supports 32bit memory addressing, however many of those addresses are reserved (chipram, various I/O) and cannot be used as FastRAM for the CPU, which practically reduces the ammount of possible FastRAM to 2GB.
Well, not quite. The address space taken up by motherboard resources is much less than 2GB. The lower 16MB are pretty much everything, and you may add some parts of Zorro-III space if you like, but that neither fills 2GB.
The problem is rather the exec function AllocEntry(), which reserves bit 31 as error indicator and hence cannot handle more than 2GB RAM.
Or rather: Almost. Everything beyond this function is pretty much 2GB-safe, so in principle one could even add memory beyond the 2GB limit as long as AllocEntry() has never a chance to access it - it wouldn't be hard to modify the function accordingly. With this small adjustment in mind, the limit is more like 3.5GB. Not that anything on AmigaOs would actually require this amount of memory in first place.
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@ Kolla Have you tried one of the smaller Linux distros? You can get Xfce desktop which is lot like you asked for.
Of course I have. Just to be clear, I have worked professionally with linux in various incarnations for more than a decade, I have maintained my own patch set for the linux kernel for a long time, I have buildt from scratch and maintained two Linux distributions, one for m68k and one for bigendian ARM, I was maintaining and patching KDE3 and Qt3 on my own before TDE showed up... I pretty much know Linux in and out at this point, though the entire systemd hoople may throw me back to BSD.
And look at the points I wrote, Linux do not offer any of them, not even close, I really do not understand how you guys can suggest Linux. Xfce does not offer one single thing of what I listed up (and besides I cannot stand GTK, and prefer LxQt over Xfce any day).
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Iggy, are you reading what Thomas is writing? OS4 suffers from the exact same limitations, which was my entire point. Now, of course you can do funny tricks to support more RAM on OS4, but same tricks also can work for OS3, and who knows, maybe Gunnar will decide to make Phoenix with 64bit memory addressing and someone with skills and resources updates exec and whatever else in OS3 to support this. But noone seems willing to deal with the real issues of AmigaOS, which all boils down to memory management, protection, security and networking.
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@kolla
AROS makes a clean break from legacy. Someone just needs to modify it to how you like it.
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How much RAM can a modern 68SEC000 (which is the one produced still) address?
The 68SEC000 can address 16 megabytes. It's not modern, it's a static version of the 68000.
It would probably be safest to add 2gb of ram and map it from $00000000-$7fffffff, but knock holes in it for chip ram, custom chips, zorro ii/iii cards etc. So you wouldn't actually have 2gb of ram (a lot of PC's suffer with this problem when adding 4gb, especially if you run a 32 bit os).
It wouldn't surprise me if there were more problems than AllocEntry (which would have to completely skip ram above 2gb). There were enough problems with info and installer once you added a 2gb drive for instance.
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@kolla
AROS makes a clean break from legacy. Someone just needs to modify it to how you like it.
No, AROS makes no clear break from legacy, on contrary, its main focus and goal is being legacy compatible.
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No, AROS makes no clear break from legacy, on contrary, its main focus and goal is being legacy compatible.
AROS is only legacy compatible on 68k. Elsewhere it is only API compatible so no reason not to fork it with any break from compatibility.
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AROS is only legacy compatible on 68k. Elsewhere it is only API compatible so no reason not to fork it with any break from compatibility.
He wants a completely new OS that breaks compatibility but has modern features. But which sense makes a OS without software? :confused:
It is a kind "showing what is possible" but for me the practical value would be limited
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I didn't say there would be no software, by providing a functional and compliant posix layer, you already have plenty of software ready. By offering a platform rich with tools to develop with, a solid foundation to develop on, and very few strings attached, software will emerge.
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It wouldn't surprise me if there were more problems than AllocEntry (which would have to completely skip ram above 2gb). There were enough problems with info and installer once you added a 2gb drive for instance.
Well, what individual programs do about it is of course another issue. I'm only talking about the Os. AllocEntry() has a problem, and the kicktag list for resident modules has the same issue (it uses bit 31 as a flag). While not identical, the issue is related. The kickmemptr structure follows the same convention than that of AllocEntry() (it is in reality not allocated through AllocEntry(), even though it looks as if it is.) Individual programs can fail because they erraneously read the memory size as signed integer rather than unsigned integer. Even though AvailMem() and friends clearly return an ULONG and not a LONG, but who reads documentation anyhow...
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My understanding of things...
The 68k architecture supports an address speace that is up to 32bit bit wide, meaning up to 4GB. AmigaOS also supports 32bit memory addressing, however many of those addresses are reserved (chipram, various I/O) and cannot be used as FastRAM for the CPU, which practically reduces the ammount of possible FastRAM to 2GB. And this is the same limitation, whether you are running OS3 or OS4.
I am not sure what you are asking, but someone could make 68k processor card with 2GB (gigabyte - Gb is gigabit, 2Gb would be 256MB) and AmigaOS should run fine, yes. I don't have access to WinUAE here, but how much system RAM is it possible to add to a system config in WinUAE?
Well, in reality I don't agree that the physical limitation is really the problem. It isn't hard to create a CPU with 32 bit logical address space but a physical address space that is much wider. After all, intel did the same, called it PAE... It requires a bit of MMU trickery to do that, and of course a CPU with more physical address lines than logical address lines is possible.
The problem lies elsewere: The problem is that, on such a machine, programs would be required to distinguish between logical and physical addresses, and would be required to use Os interfaces properly. Or interfaces that are close to the Os. Or whatever you all them. Apparently, this is not "en vouge" in the Amiga community, i.e. to use other's interfaces. I already hear people screaming "dictatorship!" if I come up with such ideas. So one way or another, it wouldn't happen. The wall is in the head, not in the hardware.
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He wants a completely new OS that breaks compatibility but has modern features. But which sense makes a OS without software? :confused:
It is a kind "showing what is possible" but for me the practical value would be limited
That was AROS x86 once. Most AROS software is open source so if you branch AROS to support SMP, memory prrotection and so on you can probably adapt most of the software in a much shorter than it took to port to AROS in the first place.
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The problem lies elsewere: The problem is that, on such a machine, programs would be required to distinguish between logical and physical addresses, and would be required to use Os interfaces properly. Or interfaces that are close to the Os. Or whatever you all them.
What OS interfaces you use when there is none? AmigaOS is a low level operating system with very little abstraction.
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Now, if only it was possible to get anywhere near the max RAM limits with the Vampire boards, haha. Oh well, so many conflicting ideas and interests.
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What OS interfaces you use when there is none? AmigaOS is a low level operating system with very little abstraction.
There are.... at least as far as memory remapping is concerned.
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There are.... at least as far as memory remapping is concerned.
Uhm. .. like what?