Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: cpaek72 on February 03, 2015, 09:59:15 PM
-
Guys, i'm trying to decide which amiga to purchase. I've read through a lot of materials on the x1000 and the upcoming x5000 and need advice on driver support and which system in general just is better for now.
I know the x1000 has more potential, but the driver support seems lacking, especially the wasted cores and 3d driver support, but the sam460ex also seems like it has similar issues.
My feeling is go with the sam460ex The Red One X and save the money until they figure out the x1000, 5000etc.
My main use will be to have one system where I can put all of my classic amiga games into and fiddle with os4.1. I'm not going to get any true work done on this, so it's more of a hobbyist system to see where os4 goes.
What do you guys think? Should I just go for the x1000 and wait for the support?
Can I play all amiga games on these systems including aga games? Thanks. I'm pretty new to the amiga scene.
Charles
-
>Can I play all amiga games on these systems including aga games? Thanks. I'm pretty new to the amiga scene.
No you can't, you'd need to emulate an Amiga on them to play Amiga games, they don't have the chipset.
To be honest, if your main attraction is classic Amiga games and tinkering with the OS, you'd probably be better off with an old Amiga 1200 with a few recent expansions, accelerator, bit of ram, and a cf card full of games.
-
From discussions 2nd core support will be in OS4.2, as will the onboard Ethernet port (supported in Ubuntu, as is USB 3.0); the X5000 uses a less expensive and more powerful (but not military grade) CPU. Go with your instict (cost vs power) though.
Guys, i'm trying to decide which amiga to purchase. I've read through a lot of materials on the x1000 and the upcoming x5000 and need advice on driver support and which system in general just is better for now.
I know the x1000 has more potential, but the driver support seems lacking, especially the wasted cores and 3d driver support, but the sam460ex also seems like it has similar issues.
My feeling is go with the sam460ex The Red One X and save the money until they figure out the x1000, 5000etc.
My main use will be to have one system where I can put all of my classic amiga games into and fiddle with os4.1. I'm not going to get any true work done on this, so it's more of a hobbyist system to see where os4 goes.
What do you guys think? Should I just go for the x1000 and wait for the support?
Can I play all amiga games on these systems including aga games? Thanks. I'm pretty new to the amiga scene.
Charles
-
The X5000 will have much the same limitations as the X1000, so I'd go for the X1000 now. If you want the power to run classic Amiga games (including AGA) you need at least a 460ex and preferably an X1000, but it will be in UAE as modern Amigas don't contain the original chipset - there's nothing like a real 68K Amiga for classic games, and no emulation will ever beat it IMHO.... but if you also want to mess around with OS 4.1 then the X1000 is the current best, and you won't notice the lack of use of the second core much. You can use a PCI graphics card if you need 3D, the on-board sound works fine, and the X1000 comes usually with a supported network card.
The X1000 is the best bet for what you want - fast enough for AGA emulation and the current fastest OS 4.1 machine there is.
-
To be honest, if your main attraction is classic Amiga games and tinkering with the OS, you'd probably be better off with an old Amiga 1200 with a few recent expansions, accelerator, bit of ram, and a cf card full of games.
Agreed, keep it real :)
Or even WinUAE or an FPGA based solution (MiniMig etc).
Much cheaper than a new PPC machine if you just want to play Classic games.
-
@cpaek72
Just to clarify on the AmigaONE X1000 driver support:
HD 7.1 Sound Driver: completed and released
NemoSound: completed and released
RadeonHD v1.2 and v2.4 Driver: Completed and released (optional v2.4 driver gives accelerated video playback)
DMA accelerated graphics card library: completed and released
4GB support: completed and released
AMIStore: RC1 available
Warp3D Driver: more exciting news in Q2/2015
Regarding the cores, just one core of the X1000 is significantly faster than any other currently released AmigaONE.
A-EON will continue investing in the X1000's future. You may have noticed the software that has been purchased recently such as ImageFX, PPaint, Aladdin 4D etc.
There are several other announcements to come soon which will benefit the X1000.
-
@ cpaek72
first off welcome aboard:)
The A1-500 (aka RedOne 460) is a great sturdy machine and many users are reporting that AGA games are running smooth on it especially with the new E-UAE JIT which was recently released in RunInUAE. If you want to get the current king of AmigaOS machines then spend the extra money to get it along with future dual core support etc. If you want to wait and see what the new upcoming X5000's will cost and be like then you have that option as well.
Either way it's a fun time to get back into Amiga both classic and NG for sure!
@ amigakit
you mean with OS4.1FE the full 4GB ram can be used now? I just recently installed FE and my WB is still reporting 2GB?
-
Thanks for the quick responses. Looks like the x1000 could be the one. One last question. Anyone know when the x5000 is looking to be released? Thanks again for all the feedback.
-
The AmigaOne X1000 is the machine you want! Trust me :-)
hmmm, I still collect old Amiga titles, the last one being Boulder Dash Construction Kit (1989) a few weeks ago - as for the old Amiga machines, I've got a few too many of them already
I get my game fix on the xbox one these days
Get into the modern machine era, it's great fun!
-
There was a hint that release of the X5000 would be in about a year.
As to the 4 GB support, 2 GB for normal operation (32-bit OS) with the other 2 GB as mapped memory, currently accessed thru the RAM: device. The hooks are there for folks to put it to use in their own programs.
-
For playing legacy games, I find any of the NG systems a grand waste of money, and I say that as an owner of a SAM system myself. I love my SAM, but I'd find it lunacy to buy one to try and get my legacy Amiga fix with.
For games, a lot of the time you end up having to use UAE on that fancy PPC NG Amiga to run said game, and $3000 is a lot of money to spend for a niche system when a Windows box with WinUAE is pretty much a commodity.
Of course, many older, legacy games and programs will run natively in OS4. Many also will not, and you'll end up having to "emulate an old Amiga on your expensive NG Amiga". I'd have a hard time spending much money on that, but YMMV. That being said, legacy app support on OS4 via UAE is great, just a point and click affair.
-
save the money
That sounds like a good idea!
:)
-
For playing legacy games, I find any of the NG systems a grand waste of money, and I say that as an owner of a SAM system myself. I love my SAM, but I'd find it lunacy to buy one to try and get my legacy Amiga fix with.
For games, a lot of the time you end up having to use UAE on that fancy PPC NG Amiga to run said game, and $3000 is a lot of money to spend for a niche system when a Windows box with WinUAE is pretty much a commodity.
Of course, many older, legacy games and programs will run natively in OS4. Many also will not, and you'll end up having to "emulate an old Amiga on your expensive NG Amiga". I'd have a hard time spending much money on that, but YMMV. That being said, legacy app support on OS4 via UAE is great, just a point and click affair.
Indeed, I get the impression that cpaek72 (OP) is under the impression that the X1000 will just natively play all the old Amiga games, it's important to point out that it does not and you will need to run them inside UAE emulation, same as running them on Windows (in fact, probably not as good as Win-UAE is much superior to E-UAE).
If AGA/ECS gaming is his main attraction, then X1000 is totally wrong, hence why I suggested getting an expanded A1200.
-
I get the impression that cpaek72 (OP) is under the impression that the X1000 will just natively play all the old Amiga games, it's important to point out that it does not and you will need to run them inside UAE emulation
I suppose things like that can happen if it's referred to as being Amiga instead of the correct Amigaone.
;)
-
I suppose things like that can happen if it's referred to as being Amiga instead of the correct Amigaone.
;)
Since PPC Amiga do have an 680x0 emulator and that audio can be redirected to AHI through a patch isn't PPC Amiga1 able to run games that are system friendly?
Kamelito
-
Since PPC Amiga do have an 680x0 emulator and that audio can be redirected to AHI through a patch isn't PPC Amiga1 able to run games that are system friendly?
Kamelito
How many games were system friendly though? I'd say about 99% certainly weren't, definitely nothing from the Amiga's heyday.
If someone wants an OS4 machine then fair play to then, but trying to sell it to someone who just wants to play Cannon Fodder and Gods, and mess with DPaint is misleading and will lead to an unsatisfied customer.
-
Since PPC Amiga do have an 680x0 emulator and that audio can be redirected to AHI through a patch isn't PPC Amiga1 able to run games that are system friendly?
Kamelito
if these are rtg games then perhaps, but which one are these? otherwise an ng system (amigaone or whatever is it called) needs to emulate an amiga just as pc does. and according to reports the ng systems in contrary to windows pc are too week to guarantee full speed emulation, mostly because 68k jit for ppc isnt finished.
-
Warp3D Driver: more exciting news in Q2/2015
we are hearing that warp3d is around the corner every half a year since few years, last time from amiwest 2014, which has been followed with a complete silence on the subject just as before.
There are several other announcements to come soon which will benefit the X1000.
announcement of a soon announcement is another example of what is customary to be issued, and hardly ever to prove if it ever has been delivered, since the content of announced announcement content might have been announcement of an another announcement.
-
Mac mini G4 >1.42, Powerbooks and Powemac G5 give ~060@80 mhz speed emulation. X1000 gives a bit slower speed but not much. Mac mini with MorphOS is the best option for newcomers and costs 10 times less than X1000 having similar speed.
-
I think it's worth reminding ourselves that the OP did specify he wanted to run OS4 and follow its development as well as play classic Amiga games, and the X1000 remains the best machine to do that.
My main use will be to have one system where I can put all of my classic amiga games into and fiddle with os4.1. I'm not going to get any true work done on this, so it's more of a hobbyist system to see where os4 goes.
-
announcement of a soon announcement is another example of what is customary to be issued, and hardly ever to prove if it ever has been delivered, since the content of announced announcement content might have been announcement of an another announcement.
I think A-EON Technology Ltd's track record on following up on announcements is very good over the last 3 years that it has been involved. Warp3D is one announcement that is currently outstanding but not for long now. A-EON now has purchased Warp3D so now has far more control over this project. The RadeonHD project in both 2D and 3D terms is a mammoth achievement for AmigaOS and support for the latest R5/R7/R9 RadeonHD cards is very exciting.
-
Sorry but for running 68k games and following Os4 development WinUAE PPC on a fast PC is a way better/cheaper. Maybe after releasing 3d drivers X1000 would be useful but now WinUAE provides similar support except speed.
-
Sorry but for running 68k games and following Os4 development WinUAE PPC on a fast PC is a way better/cheaper. Maybe after releasing 3d drivers X1000 would be useful but now WinUAE provides similar support except speed.
You can't truly follow OS 4 development on WinUAE. For starters, WinUAE still has some bugs in it, and is likely to cause instability.
Secondly, WinUAE supports 128MB RAM max, which is very limited when you want to run things like Odyssey, let alone Timberwolf.
Then there's the composite support which is completely missing under WinUAE.
Then the fact that WinUAE's FPU emulation is incredibly slow.
WinUAE's emulation of a CS-PPC is not a good indication of OS4 and should only be seen as a small taste of what can be achieved.
-
You can't truly follow OS 4 development on WinUAE. For starters, WinUAE still has some bugs in it, and is likely to cause instability.
Secondly, WinUAE supports 128MB RAM max, which is very limited when you want to run things like Odyssey, let alone Timberwolf.
Then there's the composite support which is completely missing under WinUAE.
Then the fact that WinUAE's FPU emulation is incredibly slow.
WinUAE's emulation of a CS-PPC is not a good indication of OS4 and should only be seen as a small taste of what can be achieved.
As I understand it he is not interested in seriously developing or working with AmigaOS but only looking at it from time to time and for the rest he wants to play 68k games. For that he does not need new expensive PPC hardware and WinUAE and a modern hardware (PC) that he propably already owns is more than enough. For 68k games Amigaforever is very good or the distribution I work on. Buying hardware for $3000 is a complete overkill in my view.
-
Sorry but for running 68k games and following Os4 development WinUAE PPC on a fast PC is a way better/cheaper. Maybe after releasing 3d drivers X1000 would be useful but now WinUAE provides similar support except speed.
...
-
Thanks for the quick responses. Looks like the x1000 could be the one. One last question. Anyone know when the x5000 is looking to be released? Thanks again for all the feedback.
as Spirantho wrotes the "Classic hardware" version of AmigaOS is limited due to old lhardware limitations. It would of course be no problem to solve that (by Hyperion) but because they officially do not support WinUAE as platform do not expect them to solve the problem. If you want to use AmigaOS as a work environment emulation is not the perfect solution, if you only (as I understand it) use it for sometimes look at it it is propably ok.
For beginner that want to run 68k games and other amiga software (if you not yet own all) amigaforever is a good option. The included roms are also useful if you want to use Whdload.
-
as Spirantho wrotes the "Classic hardware" version of AmigaOS is limited due to old lhardware limitations. It would of course be no problem to solve that (by Hyperion) but because they officially do not support WinUAE as platform do not expect them to solve the problem. If you want to use AmigaOS as a work environment emulation is not the perfect solution, if you only (as I understand it) use it for sometimes look at it it is propably ok.
For beginner that want to run 68k games and other amiga software (if you not yet own all) amigaforever is a good option. The included roms are also useful if you want to use Whdload.
Well for €30 it doesn't hurt to try out OS4 on WinUAE to get a feel for it and see if he wants commit funds to dedicated hardware.
-
WinUAE is good to get a taster, but if you want to follow OS4's development progress, then you should get a machine that is fully supported by OS4.... otherwise most of the development you'll never see or appreciate.
If you just want to try OS4, though, WinUAE is the way to go - as long as you don't think it's the same experience as you'd get on a full machine like an X1000.
-
Well for %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8364;30 it doesn't hurt to try out OS4 on WinUAE to get a feel for it and see if he wants commit funds to dedicated hardware.
Makes sense. Try it on WinUAE and see if it fits to your purpose. If you still want new machine you probably know better which one you want. It worked well to Pavlor who was waiting new AmigaOne for years.
Besides, when you buy OS4 for PowerUp Amigas Hyperion get their money anyway. If you buy AmigaOne later Hyperion is getting twice as much.
-
@itix
What happened there?
-
Wow, thanks for all the feedback. Yeah, it's a bit confusing about the emulation part. If the x1000 and other AmigaOne's have to emulate all the classic software, then the only thing left is a ppc linux box? So, why have it run on PPC if it can't run any of the old amiga software natively? Is the integration of the emulation into os4.1 better than what's currently avail on windows and mac? Just curious. Probably talked to death on the forums, but I do want to get a machine where I can support the amiga cause and that bit of nostalgia is what's driving me to consider a machine and not winuae. Does that make sense?
-
Nobody said that X1000 needs to emulate all classic software. All software which doesn't use hardware directly works (pagestream, imagefx, photogenics, ...). Most of games (+protacker and some older software) don't use operating system and they require emulation using euae. MorphOS has the same (similar) abilities to run amiga software. There is Aros also but it doesn't run amigaos programs on any decent hardware.
-
I think A-EON Technology Ltd's track record on following up on announcements is very good
:laughing:
Well, since *you are* A-Eon I'd be worried if you thought differently... :lol:
-
Wow, thanks for all the feedback. Yeah, it's a bit confusing about the emulation part. If the x1000 and other AmigaOne's have to emulate all the classic software, then the only thing left is a ppc linux box? So, why have it run on PPC if it can't run any of the old amiga software natively? Is the integration of the emulation into os4.1 better than what's currently avail on windows and mac? Just curious. Probably talked to death on the forums, but I do want to get a machine where I can support the amiga cause and that bit of nostalgia is what's driving me to consider a machine and not winuae. Does that make sense?
morphos and os4 are able to run a choice of system conform amiga software via 68k cpu emulation as if it would run on genuine amiga. but that hardly includes any games, because as you yourself said the os4 machines are nothing other than regular pc ppc systems with regular pc expansion ports like pci, usb, vga to the point that they usually are better support by linux than by os4. as example linux has gallium and 3d hardware acceleration as well as multicore support, os4 obviously doesnt. to put it stright there is no technical continuity between amiga and os4, aros or morphos hardware. if you are looking for a further development of technical concepts behind genuine amiga you might look at various fpga projects like for instance this one:
http://www.apollo-core.com/
-
AmigaOS 4 isn't PPC Linux. It's AmigaOS. :)
AmigaOS 4 runs most software which doesn't use the chipset, so games you'll need to run UAE for (which is part of AmigaOS 4 now, via RunInUAE) - but anything else runs. You can even run things like PC-Task if you're particularly crazy. Compatibility with AmigaOS 3.1 is very good on AmigaOS 4, and uses a JIT interpreter called "Petunia" which is very fast - much faster than you'd get on a real 68K Amiga.
Classic 68K Amigas are better than the NG Amigas only for games. Almost anything that uses the OS is better on an X1000, as it runs most OS 3 programs alongside OS 4 programs seamlessly.
Edit: Incidentally, if you have a Catweasel Mk4, you can install 68K Amiga games using WHDLoad exactly as you would under OS 3. Install the game (e.g. Gods or something), then double-click on the "Gods" icon and it'll start up UAE and boot Gods automatically. There's a little bit of setting up of the Catweasel drivers, but not much, and after that's done you can play your 68K games just by running them.
UAE will never be as good as a real 68K Amiga, but it's a pretty good emulation now and is integrated into OS4.
-
nostalgia is what's driving me to consider a machine and not winuae. Does that make sense?
If it's nostalgia then an actual Amiga would be the machine I'd go for.
Again it depends what you want to do, in your original post you mentioned classic Amiga games as being a bit draw. It really depends, if you want to see what the Amiga was famous for (games, demos, legendary programs that the system is known for) then get an actual Amiga.
If you're more interested in seeing the current state of AmigaOS, and using stuff like Webkit browsers, listening to music and watching videos etc. then an X1000 will let you do all that for a price. But if it's the classic stuff you're interested in, get an actual Amiga. And yes I do see the difference between emulation and the real deal.
There is plenty you can do with a real Amiga including exploring the demo scene, games and enjoying the OS. See my video on my Commodore Amiga 4000 for a recent example: http://youtu.be/pxi47Ut1gCQ?t=16m32s
And an A1200 one if you like :) http://youtu.be/0_kZoYqcpB4
I'm not anti-OS/NG (I have used OS 4 in the past, and I DO use MorphOS), but I think you need to be more specific on what you're interested in so we can advise you, before you spend unnecessary money.
-
games you'll need to run UAE for (which is part of AmigaOS 4 now, via RunInUAE) - but anything else runs
This is an exaggeration, there is certainly a high percentage of non-game 68k Amiga software which does not work properly or at all on "NG" systems.
-
@itix
What happened there?
What?
Nothing. Besides, X5000 is going to have better software support. If I had to buy new OS4 system it would be either SAM460 or X5000.
-
OK, NEARLY anything else runs. :). But the ones that don't I come across a lot less frequently than the ones that do.
-
What?
Nothing. Besides, X5000 is going to have better software support. If I had to buy new OS4 system it would be either SAM460 or X5000.
I meant "€" turning into "%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8364;".
-
If you buy a NG OS4 machine under the guise you'll simply be able to "plug and play" all those oldie fave games and demos you toyed with 20 years ago on legacy hardware, a fool and his money are quickly parted.
I love both my SAM and my MOS machines, but to think of buying either to get a hassle free experience of your youth that you had 20 years ago on your old A500, you'll be sorely let down.
The smart option would be to grab UAE and OS4 FE and give it a whirl, see if you even like the OS4 experience at all to begin with.
Anyone telling you that you can sit around all day long, downloading old (legacy, 68k) games and demos on a NG machine and just unpack them to RAM and run them without the buffer of an emulator (yeah, emulating an Amiga on an Amiga type of deal) - well, you're simply not being told the truth. And I can say that as the owner of a pre-order SAM440 from 2008, 7 years of experience with it.
Thankfully, I had no illusions nor desires to run oldie SW on the SAM, and I love the machine for what it is.
I don't wish to badmouth any NG system - they are super, as long as you realize what they can and cannot do. I question the sanity of anyone buying a $3000 X1000 with dreams of running old games and demos, many - if not most, would require you running an emulator on the machine just like you would have to on a $150 Wintel PC.
-
I meant "€" turning into "%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!8364;".
Oh. Dont take it so seriously.
-
a fool and his money are quickly parted
not a fool, just a newcomer, who is a victim of misleading information.
yeah, emulating an Amiga on an Amiga type of deal
correctly, its emulating amiga on an "amigaone", if people wouldnt insist on calling things what they are not, it would be more honest and helpful towards visitors.
@cpaek72
if i was you i would take my time and observe a little before taking a serious decision, not to regret it later. especially i wouldt base it on persuasion to support something, before you know very well, what it is.
-
Oh. Dont take it so seriously.
Just a bit WTF but I'll not be losing sleep over it.
-
You may have noticed that A-EON Technology Ltd has been buying famous Amiga software applications recently.
These applications are much loved by a lot of Amiga users worldwide. These are reasons why people choose Amiga as well as the familiarity of the AmigaOS.
The idea is to natively port these Amiga applications from the older Classic to the newer AmigaONE X1000 and successor machines so no emulation is required. In addition, these applications are being updated to build on their familiar look, feel and way of working but modernise them to make them more functional and feature-rich.
The first application to be ported was PPaint (http://www.ppaint.com), which in addition to be ported to the X1000, has been updated to version 7.3a. In addition the improvements have been back ported to the Classic Amiga so the new version 7.3a exists for both the new AmigaONE and Classic Amiga systems. A-EON does not forget that there are lots of Classic owners out there still.
The next applications to undergo this upgrade will be ImageFX, Aladdin 4D and some other surprises to be announced soon.
It is also an objective to integrate all A-EON owned software so it interacts together more easily.
-
Well I routinely use my X1000 (and A4000T with OS4), and they are pretty much fun to me.
-
The "fool and his money are soon parted" is an old term stretching back to the 1500's, and I meant no offense by it. I should have phrased that better and not jumped to the assumption that everyone is familiar with such old sayings, since we're such a worldly bunch on A.org, locationally. Apologies if any offense was taken, none was intended in the least.
To the fellow that's considering purchasing a rather expensive OS4 machine, there's a lot to absolutely love about them, but as the others have said, it'd be a shame to see you invest such an ungodly sum of money into a PC that doesn't do what you hoped it would.
I'd recommend just getting WinUAE (or Amiga Forever, since the ROM's are there for legacy stuff anyways) and a copy of OS4 FE. It won't be the ideal experience true hardware would be, but should give you a fair enough peek into things for under 50 bucks total, which sure beats a $3000 investment. I'd be leery of buying any OS4 machine atm to begin with, with the X5000 coming out in the future.
In the end, if the software you want to run on said OS4 PPC machine hits or otherwise requires the authentic hardware like the old custom Miggy chips, the NG box will no more have said chips in it than a Best Buy special Windows PC would, leaving you in emulation land anyways.
MOS machines are dirt cheap, and tbh - I always found MOS to handle legacy software a wee bit better than my SAM does.
-
I use the term, "Cost benefit ratio" for fiduciary concerns, and I doubt it goes back 500 years. Each person has their own economic resources and priority on spending for both work-related (tax deductible) and hobby purchases.
Defining someone else by one's own standards and expendable income seems a bit...
-
@cpaek72
If you just want to play around with Amiga games and programs from time to time I would recommend either a MIST or the upcoming FPGA Replay. They are both FPGA boards that can emulate an Amiga on a hardware level. The first is OCS/ECS but an AGA core is on the way. FPGA Replay is meant to emulate an A1200 but is not finished yet.
If you want an NG Amiga, then you have three choises, each with it's own advantages and drawbacks: AmigaOS 4, MorphOS and AROS.
AmigaOS 4:
Plus: "Feels" very Amiga. Has new hardware. Cheap OS.
Minus: Driver issues. Hardware cost (except emulated AOS 4 for classic machines under WinUAE).
MorphOS:
Plus: Good support. Cheap PPC Mac hardware in plenty.
Minus: May lack the Amiga feel. No new hardware (support for SAM 460 on the way). OS cost up to 111 Euro.
AROS:
Plus: Gratis. Open source. Runs on cheap X86 hardware. Several good distros to play with.
Minus: Still very beta.
I'm not saying which of these you should buy, just that you should really do your homework first. I started out with a SAM 460 with AmigaOS 4 when it had some serious driver issues which made me sell the machine in rage. Then I played around with AROS for a year before settling for MorphOS. There are other stories where people find their home with AmigaOS 4 or AROS of course.
BUT! From one guy who was a beginner 2.5 years ago to a beginner today I have this advice: don't start with the most expensive combination first. Go for the cheapest alternatives and work your way up until you find the thing that works for you. I myself lost a lot of money not doing that.
-
Amiga Games are best on Amiga 500.
If you just want to play Amiga games the best choice is Amiga 500 with gotek fdd emulator.
Gotek is cheap and always works.
FPGA emulators such as FPGA arcade, minimig, mist will never be as good as the original Amiga 500.
FPGA emulators are waste of time and money.
The same is also true with the Amiga 1200.
AGA games were craps.
For productivity software the best choice is of course the PowerPC Amiga.
x86 solutions such as AROS are not compatible with the Amiga.
68k Amigas are too slow.
Especially graphics that 68k amigas have is ridiculously slow.
The PowerPC processors are fully compatible with 68k.
Binary translation used on PowerPC Amiga is very different from the full system emulation as in the uae.
68k and PowerPC code share the same space and data.
For the user, this means that he does not feel any difference between 68k and PowerPC applications.
Plus, the graphics on the PowerPC is faster than the fastest PC with WinUAE.
For the developer, this means that it can use the old 68k code in the new PowerPC software, as easy as PowerPC code.
Most of the productivity software works on the new better Amigas.
Some poorly written applications will not work on the new better Amigas.
In my opinion, PowerPC Amigas deserve more to be called Amiga than AGA crap which Commodore produce in 1992-1994.
I really regret that I did not buy a new better Amiga earlier.
-
Haha. The above post should be taken with a grain of salt. I think you will find people who disagree with every one of those statements. :roflmao:
-
Haha. I'm laughing out loud about the above post. Are you trolling? Every single one of those statements is wrong. Go back and try again, bye! :roflmao:
-
Every single one of those statements is wrong.
I must respectfully disagree with you on one point Mike... I have 3 Miggies and THE BEST experience I get playing OCS/ECS games is ALWAYS on my A500 using either the real game or creating floppies from an ADF from The Games Archive.
Without going into the semantics of the great hardware add-ons for the A500 (which are a must - as in my sig), games just work as they were written when using a real A500 (with the proper KS ROM). Of course I would never try to play say, Willie Beamish with it's 10 floppies or so, but playing 1 or 2 disk games is the best. Not to mention the great advantage of co-operative 2 player games linking up 2 A500's.
Don't get me wrong, WHDLoad is awesome on the A1200. But none of the games I like to play regularly, work perfectly in WHDLoad.
As far as the PPC working seamlessly with 68K on real hardware , I have no idea as I don't have such a machine!
And as far as FPGA, again I don't have one, but it would have to emulate the hardware perfectly or you would still have to run some sort of emulator such as WHDLoad I would imagine.
I think the guy's a wingnut based on his statement about AGA though!
Just my opinion of course....
Good times and good stuff though! :)
-
@Oldsmobile_Mike
the guy is known for trolling like that. if one meant it a an actual advise, he would have to make it sound at least a bit sane. but of course this is not the merit.
-
Amiga Games are best on Amiga 500.
If you just want to play Amiga games the best choice is Amiga 500 with gotek fdd emulator.
Gotek is cheap and always works.
FPGA emulators such as FPGA arcade, minimig, mist will never be as good as the original Amiga 500.
FPGA emulators are waste of time and money.
The same is also true with the Amiga 1200.
AGA games were craps.
For productivity software the best choice is of course the PowerPC Amiga.
x86 solutions such as AROS are not compatible with the Amiga.
68k Amigas are too slow.
Especially graphics that 68k amigas have is ridiculously slow.
The PowerPC processors are fully compatible with 68k.
Binary translation used on PowerPC Amiga is very different from the full system emulation as in the uae.
68k and PowerPC code share the same space and data.
For the user, this means that he does not feel any difference between 68k and PowerPC applications.
Plus, the graphics on the PowerPC is faster than the fastest PC with WinUAE.
For the developer, this means that it can use the old 68k code in the new PowerPC software, as easy as PowerPC code.
Most of the productivity software works on the new better Amigas.
Some poorly written applications will not work on the new better Amigas.
In my opinion, PowerPC Amigas deserve more to be called Amiga than AGA crap which Commodore produce in 1992-1994.
I really regret that I did not buy a new better Amiga earlier.
lots of nonsense in just one post... gratulation :)
I will only answer to the 68k parts... every old game needs the amiga chipset so it will not work without emulation. By your wonderful PPC solution you have to run UAE on a platform that is slower than the cheaper PC options with no JIT. Does not sound like a good or at least better option.
Aros X86 is running 68k software in emulation, it is not binary but source compatible. In your list you seem to have forgotten that there is Aros 68k that is both and even runs on 68k hardware without needing PPC (in opposite to your favorites).
FPGA hardware is and will not beat standard hardware but it has a real geek factor, something PPC for me (and many others) miss. So I do not see it as waste of time or money. FPGA Arcade and Apollo are my personal favorites and it will be interesting to see what future brings. At the moment I am quiet happy using emulation and outperforming Sam 460 ex.
And my last Amiga I bought was "AGA crap" (A4000 with graphic card, before I owned a A1200 and before that a A500). So the "crap" is part of the history of many people here in opposite to PPC.
And BTW not only most productivity software is 68k but also most compilers. And even if they work somehow on your wonderful PPC hardware they still compile 68k binaries.
-
@cpaek72
If you just want to play around with Amiga games and programs from time to time I would recommend either a MIST or the upcoming FPGA Replay. They are both FPGA boards that can emulate an Amiga on a hardware level. The first is OCS/ECS but an AGA core is on the way. FPGA Replay is meant to emulate an A1200 but is not finished yet.
If you want an NG Amiga, then you have three choises, each with it's own advantages and drawbacks: AmigaOS 4, MorphOS and AROS.
AmigaOS 4:
Plus: "Feels" very Amiga. Has new hardware. Cheap OS.
Minus: Driver issues. Hardware cost (except emulated AOS 4 for classic machines under WinUAE).
MorphOS:
Plus: Good support. Cheap PPC Mac hardware in plenty.
Minus: May lack the Amiga feel. No new hardware (support for SAM 460 on the way). OS cost up to 111 Euro.
AROS:
Plus: Gratis. Open source. Runs on cheap X86 hardware. Several good distros to play with.
Minus: Still very beta.
I'm not saying which of these you should buy, just that you should really do your homework first. I started out with a SAM 460 with AmigaOS 4 when it had some serious driver issues which made me sell the machine in rage. Then I played around with AROS for a year before settling for MorphOS. There are other stories where people find their home with AmigaOS 4 or AROS of course.
BUT! From one guy who was a beginner 2.5 years ago to a beginner today I have this advice: don't start with the most expensive combination first. Go for the cheapest alternatives and work your way up until you find the thing that works for you. I myself lost a lot of money not doing that.
AROS is "still very beta"? Really?
AROS is supporting ARM/X86/X64/PPC and 68k.
I have some knowledge regarding the 68k branch. Where it is "still very beta"?
-
It is sad (IMHO) that some people define their opinion as "Fact" and we see way too much of that in the forums. In research, that represents an "N of 1" and lacks any relevance. In the forums it does represent, again IMO, trolling for an argument -- thus Mike is correct.
-
And my last Amiga I bought was "AGA crap" (A4000 with graphic card, before I owned a A1200 and before that a A500). So the "crap" is part of the history of many people here in opposite to PPC.
actually he said the aga games were "crap". whatever the case, in whatever comparison aga games and aga itself as technological solution were behind the comparable pc options at their time, and not as revolutionary as genuine amiga (1000). though it is in no relation to the current situation of os4 in terms of rtg technology or available games.
-
actually he said the aga games were "crap". whatever the case, in whatever comparison aga games and aga itself as technological solution were behind the comparable pc options at their time, and not as revolutionary as genuine amiga (1000). though it is in no relation to the current situation of os4 in terms of rtg technology or available games.
"FPGA emulators are waste of time and money.
The same is also true with the Amiga 1200.
AGA games were craps."
ok he says A1200 was a waste of time and money
the same is true for his PPC. Replacing old technology with another one partly even expensive one makes no sense either.
-
I must respectfully disagree with you on one point Mike... I have 3 Miggies and THE BEST experience I get playing OCS/ECS games is ALWAYS on my A500 using either the real game or creating floppies from an ADF from The Games Archive.
That's simply because the A500 is the real thing! :)
There is no way around this fact!
:)
-
AROS is "still very beta"? Really?
AROS is supporting ARM/X86/X64/PPC and 68k.
I have some knowledge regarding the 68k branch. Where it is "still very beta"?
He was simply speaking from a MorphOS perspective, and from this POV it's all true. Don't let it raise your blood pressure! :p
;)
-
Weren't we discussing the Red One X and the X1000?
-
That's simply because the A500 is the real thing! :)
There is no way around this fact!
:)
(http://images.sodahead.com/profiles/0/0/2/4/3/8/5/9/7/youve-got-this-right-78934863776.jpeg)
"Amiga 1200/AGA = Crap" :rofl::lol::rofl::lol::rofl:
I'm not sure that ppcamiga1 has ever owned a REAL A1200.
-
"FPGA emulators are waste of time and money.
The same is also true with the Amiga 1200.
AGA games were craps."
ok he says A1200 was a waste of time and money
the same is true for his PPC. Replacing old technology with another one partly even expensive one makes no sense either.
hard to tell. plain amiga1200 is likely to be found for almost no cash. an 030 accel with some ram and the few expansions they offer may be worth an fpga device. still such a device may be not fully compatible nor tested, same as the genuine amiga may have hardware issues to start with or due to its age. none of both compares in cost to almost useless ppc expansion, thats a proven fact.
-
Weren't we discussing the Red One X and the X1000?
whats there to discuss? plain boring..
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by danbeaver (http://www.amiga.org/forums/web/buttons/viewpost.gif) (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=783133#post783133)
Weren't we discussing the Red One X and the X1000?
whats there to discuss? plain boring..
cpaek72's comments, IMO, are a bit ambiguous and is simply not up to date regarding 68K games and 68K software running on an NG machine. I think, even though we may be off topic a bit, these posts are relevant to his original question. If he jumps right in and buys an NG machine expecting to do what he eluded to in his 1st post, he may be in for a surprise. I owned a SAM460EX... I kinda know. No offense to NG owners what-so-ever!
-
"Amiga 1200/AGA = Crap" :rofl::lol::rofl::lol::rofl:
I don't know why, but this reminds me of the "If it's not Scottish, it's crap!" guy.
Hey, wasn't there some guy around here a while ago that had an A1200 that was actually made in Scotland?
(http://mccluresmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/if-its-not-scottish-its-crap-mcclures.jpg)
-
GEEEEBUZ! That made launch a luggie! HAHAHAHAHA! Loved Scottish Crap Guy back in the day! :rofl:
-
Quote:
Originally Posted by danbeaver (http://www.amiga.org/forums/web/buttons/viewpost.gif) (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=783133#post783133)
Weren't we discussing the Red One X and the X1000?
cpaek72's comments, IMO, are a bit ambiguous and is simply not up to date regarding 68K games and 68K software running on an NG machine. I think, even though we may be off topic a bit, these posts are relevant to his original question. If he jumps right in and buys an NG machine expecting to do what he eluded to in his 1st post, he may be in for a surprise. I owned a SAM460EX... I kinda know. No offense to NG owners what-so-ever!
He might learn more from an objective discussion.
-
Please, by all means, lead on and give us your objective viewpoint(s) regarding his 1st post... I know you're more than qualified. Please, include all aspects of 68K games and applications and their integration/performance with OS4.1. I'm all ears! :)
-
My comments have been posted
-
AROS is "still very beta"? Really?
AROS is supporting ARM/X86/X64/PPC and 68k.
I have some knowledge regarding the 68k branch. Where it is "still very beta"?
I can't speak about 68k, but the x86 version still crash a lot. Don't get me wrong, it's getting better and better but it's simply not there yet. Even the developers stress this since they, to their credit, don't want to give the impression that it's a finished product.
That said, all NG flavors crash. Using an NG Amiga as a main system is for fanatics and masochists like me :)
-
I can't speak about 68k, but the x86 version still crash a lot. Don't get me wrong, it's getting better and better but it's simply not there yet. Even the developers stress this since they, to their credit, don't want to give the impression that it's a finished product.
That said, all NG flavors crash. Using an NG Amiga as a main system is for fanatics and masochists like me :)
I will test Icaros Desktop in VMWare and see if it is so unstable like some (like you) claim because I assume that it heavily depends on where you run it.
And on 68k it does not crash at all (except you start a program that causes problems) so I have a problem with phrases like "AROS is unstable" or "X years behind". And when I then ask for more precise comments and not only bubbles I mostly (surprise surprise) get no answer. BTW the same happened when people talked about Magellan. It seems the less knowledge people have the more convinced are they :-). The last comment is not against you but general experience.
In this special case I ask for more precision, if you talk about f.e. Icaros Desktop running on X86 then name it this way. AROS is a lot of different platforms and what might be true for one platform (running on a specific hardware) is possible not true for another platform or hardware. Aeros runs on Linux Kernel (hosted) so even if something is true for Icaros it is perhaps not true for Aeros. Your beloved MorphOS has the advantage that it only runs on certain supported models, if it would be installable everywhere it would have similar problems.
But as I said I will install Icaros Desktop on VMWare and do extensive testing. If it is "crashy" like you wrote then it will also run unstable in VMWare because VMWare is nothing else than a simulated hardware, if not it is obvious that it haevily depends on configuration and hardware.
-
He was simply speaking from a MorphOS perspective, and from this POV it's all true. Don't let it raise your blood pressure! :p
;)
No he was speaking from his perspective. I have all 3 and TBH I find AROS much more enjoyable then MorphOS or AOS4.
MorphOS is Amiga done eh Okay. :P
-
Some bull%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! here, but also good points of views.
It doesn't make sense to buy X1000 just for playing old amiga games. They are emulated and that kind of emultion doesn't require much. Even Sam 440ep can emulate A500 without a problems. So if you are not a rich man, don't buy X1000 just for old games.
If you are planning to use old pruductivity software that is a different thing. 99% of them works very well with Amiga OS4 and really fast when comparing to any 68k Amiga.
What would I suggest to you is buying a second hand Sam 440ep or ep Flex. Really nice little mobo with very high quality. With that you get NG Amiga very economy price and you can see do you like it OR not. Only extra thing is whdload key file, if you want to play whdloadized games.
If you have used Amiga OS3.5/3.9 you most likely like it.
What is bull%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! is that playing old 68k games would require some effort. OS4.1FE installs RunInUAE when you install OS, so you can start those games just double click even if they are NODOS disk images. With Amiga OS4 you will get working emulation eviroment as it have a required kickstart files, os disks, etc licenced. Unlike other NG machines.
As a bvonus Sam 440ep is very well supported by OS, ithas a all needed drivers, like 3d etc.
-
Some bull%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! here, but also good points of views.
It doesn't make sense to buy X1000 just for playing old amiga games. They are emulated and that kind of emultion doesn't require much. Even Sam 440ep can emulate A500 without a problems. So if you are not a rich man, don't buy X1000 just for old games.
If you are planning to use old pruductivity software that is a different thing. 99% of them works very well with Amiga OS4 and really fast when comparing to any 68k Amiga.
What would I suggest to you is buying a second hand Sam 440ep or ep Flex. Really nice little mobo with very high quality. With that you get NG Amiga very economy price and you can see do you like it OR not. Only extra thing is whdload key file, if you want to play whdloadized games.
If you have used Amiga OS3.5/3.9 you most likely like it.
What is bull%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! is that playing old 68k games would require some effort. OS4.1FE installs RunInUAE when you install OS, so you can start those games just double click even if they are NODOS disk images. With Amiga OS4 you will get working emulation eviroment as it have a required kickstart files, os disks, etc licenced. Unlike other NG machines.
As a bvonus Sam 440ep is very well supported by OS, ithas a all needed drivers, like 3d etc.
The advantage compared to AROS is not that much big anymore. The rom replacments work very well now and the majority of games work with it. You even need one set and not different like normally.
-
Even Sam 440ep can emulate A500 without a problems.
Can it? My A1XE struggled with a lot of titles and that was 933mhz, load up something like Pinball Fantasies and see how un-smooth and jittery the vertical scrolling is.
I maintain that anyone buying an "NG" system to play classic Amiga games/titles is crazy, an A1200 with WHDLoad or an A500 with a Gotek will give you much less headaches, be more authentic and cost a lot less money.
-
I am trying to be fair here, since each and every one of us answering this thread are in love with our OS of choice. And then we tend to give poor advice to newcommers.
I am not saying AROS is buggy crap, only that it's beta. Which it is. That it's resonably stable on the right hardware or the right VM settings is great, but there are still things to fix and features to add. And I have two AROS machines that runs it natively. So I don't say it to flame here.
-
I bought Amiga 1200 in 1993.
Amiga 1200 was worth nothing underpowered overpriced crap.
Because AGA had no chunky pixel, AGA was 24 times slower than SVGA card for 386 PC.
In 1993, for the price of Amiga 1200 I could buy 386 which was many times faster than Amiga 4000.
Amiga 1200 was waste of time and money.
I really regret money spent on crap made by Commodore.
Today Amigas are not as good as the amiga 500 of course.
They are not even as good as those produced in 2003.
Even so, today Amigas are far better than the Amiga 1200.
-
The biggest problem with 68k is obviously very slow graphics.
AGA is pathetically slow, Zorro II with bandwidth 3.5 MB / s barely keep up with the 386 SVGA, and Zorro III with a bandwidth of 13.5 MB / s barely keep up with the 486 VLB cards.
If you want to use productivity software, Amiga 68k is really a waste of time and money.
If someone really wants to have great compatibility and feeling of Amiga 500 games, can buy Amiga 500 with Gotek.
-
It sounds a lot to me like you are in the WRONG forum. This forum is (or at least used to be) all about people that like things Amiga related.
I hope you have a better day once you move on.
-
I bought Amiga 1200 in 1993.
Amiga 1200 was worth nothing underpowered overpriced crap.
Because AGA had no chunky pixel, AGA was 24 times slower than SVGA card for 386 PC.
In 1993, for the price of Amiga 1200 I could buy 386 which was many times faster than Amiga 4000.
Amiga 1200 was waste of time and money.
I really regret money spent on crap made by Commodore.
Today Amigas are not as good as the amiga 500 of course.
They are not even as good as those produced in 2003.
Even so, today Amigas are far better than the Amiga 1200.
im not really sure if an a1200 was that much worse than a regular pc of 1993, while being portable and afair not being in comparison so much more expensive. it also still had its choice of software, expansions, dealers and support.
if someone says that this is worse than the contemporary situation of os4, where one needs to invest multiple amount of cash for a fraction of what a budget pc can deliver in every respect, where there is no unique software that would justify such an investment, and where there is no prospect that it might change, must be seriously misguided.
-
I bought Amiga 1200 in 1993.
Amiga 1200 was worth nothing underpowered overpriced crap.
Because AGA had no chunky pixel, AGA was 24 times slower than SVGA card for 386 PC.
In 1993, for the price of Amiga 1200 I could buy 386 which was many times faster than Amiga 4000.
Amiga 1200 was waste of time and money.
I really regret money spent on crap made by Commodore.
Today Amigas are not as good as the amiga 500 of course.
They are not even as good as those produced in 2003.
Even so, today Amigas are far better than the Amiga 1200.
Computing doesn't begin and end with chunky pixels. I couldn't give a rats arse about chunky pixels personally. I'd like to see this 386 you refer to running broadcast quality super smooth 50/60Hz animations in Scala and the like...
Maybe all you wanted to do is play Wolfenstein or Doom back in the day, if so then yes you'd be better off with your 386/486.
Do you actually have any creative experience with 68K Amiga's?
-
Absolutely right Paul. My A2000 with 060, before it died, and P4 was every bit as good as a 486 and way more fun!