Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: amigadave on November 25, 2014, 11:20:07 PM
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As I stated in another thread, I don't know if the CPU's being used for the Cyrus+ motherboard designs are low enough in power usage and heat produced to make them a good choice for a new PPC laptop computer, but I am guessing that they probably don't use any more power, or produce any more heat than the i7 Windows laptop I am typing this forum message on right now, so why not design a new PPC laptop? Sure, it costs more money to design an entire laptop than it does to simply design a PPC motherboard for standard PC cases with PCI and/or PCIe slots, and writing drivers for the graphics and other ports & controllers of an SOC is much more work than simply putting existing components for sound & Ethernet & SATA & USB, that are already supported by AmigaOS4.x, onto an ITX, or ATX sized motherboard.
Such a new PPC laptop would probably cost much more than any existing Intel, or AMD powered laptop, and it might not be feasible to even try to design and produce such a laptop, if the final cost would have to be in the $4,000 to $5,500 range to recoup design and production costs, but this won't be the first or last useless poll posted to these forums, so what the heck, here goes.
The poll choices are multiple choice.
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TBH probably not as it would more than likely cost a good 2-3k to buy one :(
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TBH probably not as it would more than likely cost a good 2-3k to buy one :(
Yes, that is probably a conservative number, but I don't really know what it would cost to custom design and produce a laptop. I know that many years ago, my first ever Intel powered computer (not counting the Bridgeboard in my A2000) was an Intel Celeron powered non brand name laptop and there were dozens of small companies making laptops at that time. It cost me around $1,500, IIRC, so factoring in inflation and reduction of production costs due to more modern and widespread production facilities, the cost of a new laptop could probably be only a little higher today, except for the additional cost associated with using PPC, instead of commonly used Intel, or AMD CPU's, plus the cost of the AmigaOS4.x license.
I have no idea what price a new PPC laptop could be produced for and would be interested in reading opinions from people who know more about design and production costs for such things.
I just know that it would be a great thing to have a fairly powerful (meaning at least as powerful as my G4 PowerBook @ 1.67GHz) PPC laptop that is brand new and likely to last many years. I love my G4 PowerBook and don't think it will fail any time soon, if I take good care of it (specially if I stock up on a few parts that are most likely to fail), but if there were a new PPC laptop that I could run all 3 NG Amiga platforms on, it would be worth it to me to spend several thousand dollars on. That is because I am still interested in all NG Amiga platforms and would like to see them succeed and grow more user base.
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Wouldn't buy one, because I'm not interested in PPC, and I'm not interested in laptops.
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The cost would certainly be higher than that of the X1000 if we are looking at a multicore CPU at the 1.6HGz+ range.
The laptop/notebook motherboard would be a custom design with a smaller production run than the X1000. The custom design would either have to include an onboard compatible AMD (ATi) GPU, or if it went with some obscure but low cost embedded part then there would be the additional cost of the graphics drivers.
Not sure where people stand on the Xorro slot and would they consider the laptop/notebook less of a modern Amiga without a Xorro slot. If A-Eon released a portable without the Xorro slot they would be signalling that it is not part of the standard set of features.
What about other expansion ports like PCMCIA or ExpressCard 3/4?
Then there is the battery support in OS4.x, including sleep/deep-sleep support, power control.
Web cam, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, custom A-keys reduced keyboard, and touchpad support. Sure, some of this has already been done by Morphos and could be reverse engineered under license by A-Eon but all this extra work would be part of the development cost which would inadvertently become part of the laptop/notebook hardware cost.
At the end of the day it is all possible, it just seems so impractical.
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The only realistic option is to pick out a cheap laptop, buy a stack of them and design a replacement PPC motherboard.
An HP 255 G3 is a good choice because it can be bought retail for £200 and comes with 4GB RAM, a 500GB hard drive and a DVDRW that can all be re-used along with the case, PSU, battery and keyboard, screen.
It would probably better to get a Acube to design something around an AMCC or possibly LSI PPC SOC. I think some mid range Radeon mobility would be a good idea since we already have the drivers and a mobility chip will have the circuitry for driving the laptop screen.
The Sam460CR 1.1Ghz with 4.1FE is listed at £436.59 (£523.91 with 20% VAT) So I think Acube could do a replacement laptop board with OS4 for under £800 retail So a l think under £1100 for a complete ready to run system is a realistic possibility.
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I'd take 2 for 5000 dollars each any day. Bring on the laptops.
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I would consider buying if all of the features promised for the OS were available from the day of sale.
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I tried running MorphOS on an iBook not long ago and it works like a charm. You can also get AROS for laptops. Personally I don't see the need for an expensive AOS 4.x portable computer. A very cheap entry model, like the netbook that was announced years ago, would perhaps of interest to more people? So my answer is no.
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No. Would a 68k based laptop be possible?
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No. Would a 68k based laptop be possible?
Certainly. Anything is possible.
But perhaps something like this would be more practical:
http://hackaday.com/2014/04/02/bunnie-launches-the-novena-open-laptop/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+hackaday/LgoM+%28Hack+a+Day%29
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Probably not.
The x1000 was way to expensive and my gues is a laptop will cost even more.
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No
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Nope, I would rather build a laptop of a 68K fpga board.
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I wouldn't. If I really want an "amiga portable" I could just pick up a Powerbook and run MorphOS for around £100, or run UAE on my Macbook Pro. The price point it would sell at would not interest me just to run OS4.
Of course, if they ported OS4 to the iBook or Powerbook I would buy it, but that's unlikely to ever happen.
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I like the idea of an OS4 capable laptop - I'd certainly be more likely to use OS4 if it was portable - but the cost would likely be prohibitive to most people.
The MorphOS route of porting to cheap, existing laptop hardware makes a lot more sense to me.
Having said that, if they could somehow manage to get a decent specced machine out for around £1,000 UK, I'd be interested.
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Ninja'd by danwood. :pint:
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Fpga based classic amiga laptop. Yes!
No to anything else.
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Considering how little AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS demands of the hardware and still feel fast I could consider buying a really low end, low power consumption PPC laptop. Even a 400 MHz with 512 MB RAM would be enough. A 12" screen would also be enough (not 8", that's too small for me).
That might also attract people outside our camp. Some people just like a challenge, like getting the most out of such a weak computer. Not many people for sure, but at least enough for a bigger batch of laptops in one go, lowering the price.
Here is a thought: if A-Eon would make one, how about a kickstarter or similar? Then they would know how many computers people would buy and even getting paid in advance. It would eliminate the insecurities at least. Of course, if they can't deliver they have to repay the money (considering what happened with the last announced Amiga laptop).
I would chip in, but only if it was a pan-Amiga thing. I don't need yet another laptop. I would do it just to encourage cooperation between the camps. Which is something we desperately need.
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If I want an "Amiga" laptop, I have two choices already:
1. a powerful yet cheap i5/i7 one, with WinUAE running AmigaOS 4.1
2. my current Icaros Desktop 2 powered, Atom based netbook (AspireOne A150)
both would provide me enough grunt for my tasks. And If need more... I can always buy a faster x86-64 notebook.
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I would be interested if it'd be cheap enough, powerful enough, and would run both OS4 and MorphOS, but probably none of those would match... anyway, four figure sum is a no go.
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Nah. I run MorphOS..I can buy a PPC laptop already for cheap...besides I have more important hobbies that I spend good money on :-)
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Considering how little AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS demands of the hardware and still feel fast I could consider buying a really low end, low power consumption PPC laptop. Even a 400 MHz with 512 MB RAM would be enough. A 12" screen would also be enough (not 8", that's too small for me).
That might also attract people outside our camp. Some people just like a challenge, like getting the most out of such a weak computer. Not many people for sure, but at least enough for a bigger batch of laptops in one go, lowering the price.
Here is a thought: if A-Eon would make one, how about a kickstarter or similar? Then they would know how many computers people would buy and even getting paid in advance. It would eliminate the insecurities at least. Of course, if they can't deliver they have to repay the money (considering what happened with the last announced Amiga laptop).
I would chip in, but only if it was a pan-Amiga thing. I don't need yet another laptop. I would do it just to encourage cooperation between the camps. Which is something we desperately need.
Hmmm I just bought a Notebook with 2 cores, 2.70 GHz and 4 GB RAM for 300$. A weak PPC Notebook for several thousand Dollar would really make no sense
From me No
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Hmmm I just bought a Notebook with 2 cores, 2.70 GHz and 4 GB RAM for 300$. A weak PPC Notebook for several thousand Dollar would really make no sense
From me No
For you, no. For me, yes. There are more thing to a computer sometimes than pure price and performance. Being able to run ones favourite OS is one such thing.
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For you, no. For me, yes. There are more thing to a computer sometimes than pure price and performance. Being able to run ones favourite OS is one such thing.
You wrote it could win new users. I do not believe that.
For you yes, for me no :)
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If I want an "Amiga" laptop, I have two choices already:
1. a powerful yet cheap i5/i7 one, with WinUAE running AmigaOS 4.1
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I've been out of the loop for too long. How well does 4.1 run on winUAE and does it matter which version of 4.1 you run on it?
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I've been out of the loop for too long. How well does 4.1 run on winUAE and does it matter which version of 4.1 you run on it?
I myself have no experience but you need a fast PC (i5 or i7) and you run the classic version on it
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You wrote it could win new users. I do not believe that.
For you yes, for me no :)
To quote Firefly: "Some people juggle geese" :)
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bought one the other day. Last model powerbook £100 runs morphos a dream :)
In all seriousness though. Not a chance
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Price would be a huge determining factor.
While you can indeed buy a powerful commodity hardware laptop for a few hundred bucks, that's not the machine a NG Amiga running would be competing against.
We are, after all - in a market where one can buy a top end PPC Mac laptop off eBay or local classified ad for a couple hundred bucks any day of the week. Add $100 for a registered version of MOS. I could find you 15 top end PPC Mac laptops for under $200 just in my locale alone on the various for sale websites like Bargain Finder, Kijiji, and eBay.
A $2000 OS4 based laptop would be a very hard sell in this market, even to the most ardent of OS4 fans - which I am one of.
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This makes really no sense at all. First all, the PPCs you get nowadays are not really designed for mobile applications. 68K never was to begin with. They draw too much power, and computing performance is comparably poor.
Given the price point, this makes the whole idea unrealistic (or rather "what have you been smoking?" (-; ). If you want to go mobile, use a platform that is suitable for that. For small computing loads, ARM (yes, really), for complex computing, x64. I would believe running an emulator on a standard laptop is probably more power efficient than fitting a PPC into such a machine and run "something like AmigaOs" on it.
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@amigadave
$2500 is way into the very high end x86 laptop range; to even consider this price tag for anything PPC in 2014 is laughable. And considering E-eon made plain desktop systems out of standard PC components and that the price for these exceeded $3000 by some margin, it's not very difficult to imagine how the price for something entirely custom made (and where engineering challenges are so much higher) such as a laptop could indeed push up towards that $5000 figure you mentioned. And that is so insane that no words are enough to describe how insane it really is...
@Yasu
Considering how little AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS demands of the hardware and still feel fast
I don't really agree. Sure, the OS itself and the old 68k applications etc is very snappy. But I see many areas (such as heavy web browsing, heavy media usage, rendering, compiling, etc) where CPU power is essential, and where a PPC is not really an option today, especially not a "low end" (what is that today really in terms of PPC?) one, and especially not at the cost of $5000...
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Nah. I run MorphOS..I can buy a PPC laptop already for cheap...besides I have more important hobbies that I spend good money on :-)
That pretty much sums it up IMHO.
:)
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No. Would a 68k based laptop be possible?
"Only Amiga makes it possible" :)
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I have my ppc laptop already. 1.67 Ghz G4. Runs MorphOS like a charme. Hard to beat.
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Yes. I don't care if it's from A-Eon or from someone else. While I have my own preferences regarding specifications, I would buy othe rthan that, if that's the only way to get an OS4 machine I can use. Being tethered to a desk away in "the computer room" is an obstacle to using OS4 these days for me. (I already have an iBook G4, and once I get the LCD/backlight fixed I'll have a MOS machine)
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For a PPC notebook, I'll just stick with a dirt cheap MorphOS Mac.
If I want to support a dead CPU line, I'd rather use 68k. I'm not paying any real money for PPC.
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The PowerPC (Power architecture) is not dead at all; it is alive and well supported by about forty companies; it is not promoted for home desktops nor laptops, but servers, mainframes, and super-computers.
http://openpowerfoundation.org/
I kind of feel that my X1000 is special in that way, but as a need for laptops with a Power CPU? That seems silly.
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Considering how little AmigaOS 4 and MorphOS demands of the hardware and still feel fast I could consider buying a really low end, low power consumption PPC laptop. Even a 400 MHz with 512 MB RAM would be enough. A 12" screen would also be enough (not 8", that's too small for me).
That might also attract people outside our camp. Some people just like a challenge, like getting the most out of such a weak computer. Not many people for sure, but at least enough for a bigger batch of laptops in one go, lowering the price.
....
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Yes, but you don't want a laptop just to run the OS. Even tablets and smartphones have processors capable of much more than 400MHz. It would have to be 1GHz or more to be practical and attractive to people outside our camp; Most of whom would run Linux.
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The PowerPC (Power architecture) is not dead at all; it is alive and well supported by about forty companies; it is not promoted for home desktops nor laptops, but servers, mainframes, and super-computers.
http://openpowerfoundation.org/
I kind of feel that my X1000 is special in that way, but as a need for laptops with a Power CPU? That seems silly.
Wow, forty companies. Talk about "glass half full". Whatever you are on I need me some of that.
When you go from one or two companies to forty, sure that's a thing worth celebrating, but when you go from hundreds to forty, well, it may not be dead but the buzzards are certainly circling overhead.
And most of those forty aren't doing anything near as fancy as servers or supercomputers. More like communications switching gear and climate control units. Your X1000 has more in common with a thermostat than it does with a missile targeting system. Still, controlling temperature is special; in its own way.
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No. Would a 68k based laptop be possible?
Considering they exist I'd have to say yes :)
Regarding the poll however I didn't answer as there was no option that matched my thoughts.
Yes, I'd buy an OS4.x laptop, and I'd even pay a bit more for it vs. other hardware, but I still have my limits. Unfortunately this premium is unlikely to get to a level I'm willing to pay. Give me x1000 or x5000 or thereabouts spec for $1k, or sam460-ish level for up to about $700 and I'd probably bite. $700 to $1000 I think is still pretty expensive for netbook type specs, but given the niche I'd still pay it.
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I voted no. Too little, too late. Not enough PPC software to justify it.
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Why not make something that every amiga user wants a amiga clone based on the classic amiga but with improvements.... this sound like something we all have talked about before! :)
Thats what we want.
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Why not make something that every amiga user wants a amiga clone based on the classic amiga but with improvements.... this sound like something we all have talked about before! :)
Thats what we want.
Yepp that's exactly what I me and many others want :)
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In principle I would like to say yes, but Im assuming the price would be out of this world, so in reality Id end up on "not likely".
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I would not pay $2500 US for a PPC laptop.
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We should start taking the cheaper path.
Other people have made progress in diy the Pandora was made exactly how the customers wanted it and with fairly cheap hardware.
It was quite a funny thread, but we found out that a number of people would like a 68k laptop.
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I would like to see a Amiga OS 4.x laptop - but I am sure the price would be to much for most to afford (or want).
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I've got two PPC based laptops (iBook and Powerbook) running MorphOS. I will not pay 25x or 50x more to buy a new one. Just port OS4 to iBook/Powerbooks and I would buy a licence. On ebay are so much Apple PPC notebooks that is by far enough for everybody who wants one for OS4.
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I've got two PPC based laptops (iBook and Powerbook) running MorphOS. I will not pay 25x or 50x more to buy a new one. Just port OS4 to iBook/Powerbooks and I would buy a licence. On ebay are so much Apple PPC notebooks that is by far enough for everybody who wants one for OS4.
It won't happen because it would immediately undermine sales of Sam and X1000 and X5000 hardware.
I think it could be done for under $1500 if they went to route I suggested but I realise that it sill still be more than many can afford stomach but I think it would at least be possible to break even.
Even $2500 would be too high for everyone but a very select few.
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Thats what we want.
No, we don't, because we all want something else.
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It won't happen because it would immediately undermine sales of Sam and X1000 and X5000 hardware.
I am happy to hear that.
I think it could be done for under $1500 if they went to route I suggested but I realise that it sill still be more than many can afford stomach but I think it would at least be possible to break even.
Even $2500 would be too high for everyone but a very select few.
If you can afford X1000 why you could not afford $1500 laptop? I dont see logic :)
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@Itix
You can't afford the laptop because you have spent the money on an X1000 :p
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Why not make something that every amiga user wants a amiga clone based on the classic amiga but with improvements.... this sound like something we all have talked about before!
Thats what we want.
Agreed.
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Yes I most likely would.
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Why not make something that every amiga user wants a amiga clone based on the classic amiga but with improvements.... this sound like something we all have talked about before! :)
Thats what we want.
Yep, agreed. A proper 68K-based laptop, classic Amiga + some improvements would be great.
Not interested in PPC or OS4/Morphos - If I want a 'modern' OS I'll run Windows, or Linux.
However, having an A4000 in laptop form would be amazing.
Mike.
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I wish there was a new ppc laptop or even tablet.
It would be difficult for me to purchase.
Game console? :D
Could anyone elaborate how difficult/easy it would be to port to ARM?
Which has been talked about a hundred times problably. :D
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I would buy two laptops that could natively run AmigaOS 4.x at a performance matching Sam440 or better. I'd use the second one after I had worn the first to a nub. :)
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I would buy two laptops that could natively run AmigaOS 4.x at a performance matching Sam440 or better. I'd use the second one after I had worn the first to a nub. :)
What if you could buy a laptop that ran AmigaOS 4.x under emulation faster than a sam440?
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I try to be respectful of everyone's positions, but sorry to say IMHO spending $2500 euros for a low performance PPC machine (400-800 MHz), when a half-the-price Core-based x86 laptop, perfectly able to emulate PPC through WinUAE and run AmigaOS 4.1 at similar/better speed, would be plain madness.
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I try to be respectful of everyone's positions, but sorry to say IMHO spending $2500 euros for a low performance PPC machine (400-800 MHz), when a half-the-price Core-based x86 laptop, perfectly able to emulate PPC through WinUAE and run AmigaOS 4.1 at similar/better speed, would be plain madness.
Difficult to argue with that.
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Emulation is not the same thing as the real thing. If it was, no one would buy a SAM or an X1000.
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Emulation is not the same thing as the real thing. If it was, no one would buy a SAM or an X1000.
Of course it isn't but times have changed and I doubt I would buy either of those now anyway.
When I bought my Peg1 board, I got it for a very good price (£200-odd, IIRC) and even my A1XE was a relative bargain compared to those mentioned above. Furthermore, there was no viable way at that time of buying something I could emulate OS4 on.
If the real thing is proposed at up to an order of magnitude more expensive than decent emulation, I'm unlikely to be tempted.
Granted, everyone is different but I'd be astonished if there were more than a handful of people willing to pay silly money for this when there are viable alternatives for a fraction of the cost.
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@Wilse
If you are looking at AmigaOS 4 as a serious alternative to Windows/MacOS/Linux: then granted. People are not. But if we look at it as a hobby then money is less of an equation. People spend stupifying amount of money on stuff and events simply because it pleases them. Then price is simply a matter if you can afford it or not, not if it's the best buy.
But yes, there is a lot of ifs and buts. If it's cheap enough, looks cool and works then I bet AmigaOS 4 lovers (and some MorphOS users) would buy one (I'm excluding you Classic only users for obvious reason). But if it costs a lot, looks just like an ordinary laptop (complete with Window keys) and has poor drivers then ... probably not so much. Except for the die hard fans who would buy an overpriced crappy coffe maker if it had the Amiga logo on it.
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@Wilse
If you are looking at AmigaOS 4 as a serious alternative to Windows/MacOS/Linux: then granted. People are not. But if we look at it as a hobby then money is less of an equation.
In my case it is not quite so simple and possibly even the other way around.
I used to use Amiga everyday, "as a serious alternative to Windows/MacOS/Linux". That is to say that, whilst I used it mainly for a hobby (recording music) I didn't use other platforms much at all. (I also used Amiga for all my email / browsing / university projects / etc.)
Back then, I would happily spend over the odds on Amiga gear as, even though it would be more expensive than comparable Win/Mac kit, it did everything I needed and was nicer to use.
Now I no longer use Amiga as a serious alternative to Windows/MacOS/Linux. They are still nicer to use but no longer do everything I need. Music software on the Amiga began to stagnate and I gradually started using Macs, to the point where I stopped using any of my Amigas for music at all several years ago.
Nowadays when I switch on an Amiga, it is not so much to pursue my main hobby (I didn't even bother with speakers the last time), more the Amiga *itself* being a hobby.
For this particular hobby, I'm much less inclined to spend over the odds.
Having said that, I still like using the system for it's own sake and can still occasionally be persuaded to part with some money for Amiga goodies but the amounts I'm prepared to part with are proportionally much less than in the good, old days.
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@Wilse
Yes, but can we agree that when we are talking about hobbies, it become about something else than pure price/performance + amount of software?
That claimed, everyone wants different things from their machines.