Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: takemehomegrandma on November 13, 2014, 06:47:36 PM
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Hi all.
As a paying OS4 customer (been using OS4 on and off since the very first release for Amigaone XE G4), I just wanted to raise the issue of the new pricing policy regarding "OS4.1 FE", which in practice will be the seventh update of OS4.1.
I must say I feel more than a little tricked by this strange and sudden move.
I once paid 138,85 EUR (incl vat and shipment) for OS 4.1 (the Pegasos version) and had to wait 2 weeks for a worthless CD I never had any use for (it has never even entered my CD-ROM, not once), since you have to download the "4.1 update 1" ISO the first thing you do anyway, and install the OS from there. All the 4.1 updates were supposed to be included, that was always "the deal", right? But now rules have changed, and as reported in this thread (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68363) I now obviously have to spend *even more* money on *another* worthless physical "OS4.1" CD if I want to be able to download further 4.1 updates from the Internet.
Also, the second hand market for OS4.1 disappeared in one blow by this. It will be impossible for me to sell "OS4.1.6", no matter the price, since it suddenly was rendered utterly worthless. Of course I knew that "OS4.2" would once again mean a new purchase (as has been communicated all along), but since I (and I'm not the only one) looks at "4.2" as some kind of utopia (with a promised feature set that is quite impossible in an *Amiga compatible* environment) I was - and still am - quite convinced that it will never actually happen, or at least take a *very* long time. So while I of course bought OS4.1 to use it, I still kind of presumed that there would be an option open to sell it as second hand to someone else down the road as long as "4.2" hadn't been released.
But this obviously changed with this sudden and unexpected decision to charge money once again for an OS4.1 update already!
I feel double-tricked, there is no way to move either forwards or backwards without either losing money already spent, or spend even more money. And remaining passive is not really an option either, since all upcoming OS4.1 updates will require "OS4.1.7"/"FE". I feel that this was never the deal. OS4.2 was to be the next paid update.
I think this really sucks.
:(
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I feel like I just fell into some alternate reality. TMHG is an OS4.1 user?
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Nah, all OS4 users are just fakes.
Granny is just the most obvious one, closly followed by roschmyr:
http://www.geit.de/images/hm24092010/images/img_0880.jpg
*runs*
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sampson. "My naked weapon is out. Quarrel, I will back thee."
lol
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Is that you, Franko? :rofl:
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Hi all.
As a paying OS4 customer (been using OS4 on and off since the very first release for Amigaone XE G4), I just wanted to raise the issue of the new pricing policy regarding "OS4.1 FE", which in practice will be the seventh update of OS4.1.
I must say I feel more than a little tricked by this strange and sudden move.
I once paid 138,85 EUR (incl vat and shipment) for OS 4.1 (the Pegasos version) and had to wait 2 weeks for a worthless CD I never had any use for (it has never even entered my CD-ROM, not once), since you have to download the "4.1 update 1" ISO the first thing you do anyway, and install the OS from there. All the 4.1 updates were supposed to be included, that was always "the deal", right? But now rules have changed, and as reported in this thread (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68363) I now obviously have to spend *even more* money on *another* worthless physical "OS4.1" CD if I want to be able to download further 4.1 updates from the Internet.
Also, the second hand market for OS4.1 disappeared in one blow by this. It will be impossible for me to sell "OS4.1.6", no matter the price, since it suddenly was rendered utterly worthless. Of course I knew that "OS4.2" would once again mean a new purchase (as has been communicated all along), but since I (and I'm not the only one) looks at "4.2" as some kind of utopia (with a promised feature set that is quite impossible in an *Amiga compatible* environment) I was - and still am - quite convinced that it will never actually happen, or at least take a *very* long time. So while I of course bought OS4.1 to use it, I still kind of presumed that there would be an option open to sell it as second hand to someone else down the road as long as "4.2" hadn't been released.
But this obviously changed with this sudden and unexpected decision to charge money once again for an OS4.1 update already!
I feel double-tricked, there is no way to move either forwards or backwards without either losing money already spent, or spend even more money. And remaining passive is not really an option either, since all upcoming OS4.1 updates will require "OS4.1.7"/"FE". I feel that this was never the deal. OS4.2 was to be the next paid update.
I think this really sucks.
:(
You don't have to buy FE if you don't want to. As for resale of your original 4.1 license, was that a factor in your decision to buy it in the first place? How long ago did you buy 4.1 anyway?
Planned features for 4.2 are multicore support and Gallium 3D so not so useful for a Peg2 unless you can somehow get an updated BIOS that recognises PCIe cards.
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Second hand market for OS CDs?
Hmm.. I know I have a Windows 95 CD somewhere... Any takers?
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Hi all.
As a paying OS4 customer (been using OS4 on and off since the very first release for Amigaone XE G4), I just wanted to raise the issue of the new pricing policy regarding "OS4.1 FE", which in practice will be the seventh update of OS4.1.
I must say I feel more than a little tricked by this strange and sudden move.
I once paid 138,85 EUR (incl vat and shipment) for OS 4.1 (the Pegasos version) and had to wait 2 weeks for a worthless CD I never had any use for (it has never even entered my CD-ROM, not once), since you have to download the "4.1 update 1" ISO the first thing you do anyway, and install the OS from there. All the 4.1 updates were supposed to be included, that was always "the deal", right? But now rules have changed, and as reported in this thread (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68363) I now obviously have to spend *even more* money on *another* worthless physical "OS4.1" CD if I want to be able to download further 4.1 updates from the Internet.
Also, the second hand market for OS4.1 disappeared in one blow by this. It will be impossible for me to sell "OS4.1.6", no matter the price, since it suddenly was rendered utterly worthless. Of course I knew that "OS4.2" would once again mean a new purchase (as has been communicated all along), but since I (and I'm not the only one) looks at "4.2" as some kind of utopia (with a promised feature set that is quite impossible in an *Amiga compatible* environment) I was - and still am - quite convinced that it will never actually happen, or at least take a *very* long time. So while I of course bought OS4.1 to use it, I still kind of presumed that there would be an option open to sell it as second hand to someone else down the road as long as "4.2" hadn't been released.
But this obviously changed with this sudden and unexpected decision to charge money once again for an OS4.1 update already!
I feel double-tricked, there is no way to move either forwards or backwards without either losing money already spent, or spend even more money. And remaining passive is not really an option either, since all upcoming OS4.1 updates will require "OS4.1.7"/"FE". I feel that this was never the deal. OS4.2 was to be the next paid update.
I think this really sucks.:(
Hmmm, here's a thought...
Instead of "all of that up there" maybe you could have just asked...
Hello AmigaKit, Hyperion & AmigaGods,
I was just wondering what the OS4.X upgrade path is for us PEG owners?
Thanks and have a very pleasant day, TMHG....
"I feel double-tricked, there is no way to move either forwards or backwards without either losing money already spent, or spend even more money." (http://cdn.papermag.com/uploaded_images/kkcover2%28rgb%29watermark.jpg)
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@ takemehomegrandma
hey TMHTG where you been bud:) I'm with Karlos on the alternate migi-verse thing btw...let's stick to our traditional roles here ok
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Pancakes!
Sorry, wrong thread.
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My preference among Amiga and Amiga inspired platforms is clearly MorphOS3.7 on both my 1.67GHz G4 PowerBook, and my 2.7GHz Dual G5 PowerMac for both raw power, beauty of design, similarity to and compatibility with the much loved AmigaOS of the past, ease of use, availability of software and rate of progress from the MorphOS Team members in adding new features, or increasing the number of hardware choices supported. Having put that into perspective, I feel embarrassed for any AmigaOS, MorphOS, or AROS user who would complain about paying for software updates by any of the remaining programmers who are still working on any part of our community. Specially when the update price is only 30 Euros!
I appreciate the fact that MorphOS Team members have given us so much of their time and not asked for a single extra penny of payment for all of the updates they have provided since MorphOS2.0, but truthfully, I would have gladly paid 30 Euros for each and every one of those update releases, including the ones that are only bug fixes, because these programmers deserve to be paid for their time and efforts.
I will be buying AmigaOS4.1FE in the very near future, even though I do not use my AmigaOS4.x system nearly as often as I would like, due to real life issues at this point in time. Let me repeat how embarrassed I am for anyone who complains about the cost of any software, or OS updates for our community. But then some people just aren't happy (if they can ever be truly happy) unless they are complaining or being negative about something. It is just a sad fact that our small community has such members, and that those members seem to be some of the most vocal on forums such as this one. I can understand any user making a choice to NOT buy any particular software application or OS update, but why try to prevent any other users from being able to make their own choices, by discouraging the remaining programmers with your complaints? Okay, you are unhappy that they are asking to be paid for their work, I don't agree with your opinion, but I understand it. Just don't buy AmigaOS4.1FE, as it is clear that you don't prefer to use AmigaOS4.x anyway, and have not supported or promoted AmigaOS4.x for years now, only posting negative comments about it and it's programmers on forums and pointing out your opinions of why MorphOS is so superior. I think it is a surprise to everyone, including myself, that you would complain about something that you clearly don't have any interest is supporting or using any longer.
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30 euros doesn't seem like much to me either. I have a PowerMac G5 secured for use with MorphOS but haven't paid the price for it yet so getting situated with it hasn't happened yet. My OS4 machine is an A1200T with a BPPC 060 and 603e; both clocked. The problem with the BPPC is the 603e needs a fan attached and I haven't found the right sized one nor the best way to attach it. Without one, it overheats.
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Great words AmigaDave.
TJ
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maybe TMHG does not really care about any Amiga style OS and hopes to drive everyone away?
Maybe TMHG is actually Bill McEwen? ;) Sorry, I have nothing profound to add to this thread, AmigaDave already said it. :)
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Maybe TMHG is actually Bill McEwen? ;) Sorry, I have nothing profound to add to this thread, AmigaDave already said it. :)
Maybe just ignoring such threads is in my better interest. Not sure why I even read this one. Will stick to only reading threads of interest.
TJ
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(http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/8a/8a4baa7b384abb813e06998a9287988bc812a78caa9b081b2088ef19f070698a.jpg)
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Move on! Leave us alone. If you don't like it, then go do something else.
I notice tmhg voicing concerns over what he sees as unfair pricing issues and EVERYONE is lining up to attack him, moderators are quick to delete posts they don't approve of but are not bothered by these attacks.
We classic users saw this as our spiritual home only to see it invaded by rabid os 4 users who already have their own forums, now you are telling us to go from here!
Edit by Moderator: The above statement is not true. As soon as I saw the post with personal attacks in it, I immediately contacted the posting member and asked that they self moderate their post and remove any personal attacks. It is difficult for some to express differences of opinions without wandering into personal attacks, but when it happens, the moderators here will attempt to get the offending posters to correct their mistakes. If you notice any personal attacks we have missed, please use the "Report Post" button to bring any offending post to our attention. We can't be everywhere all of the time.
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Hey now, im just a classic user myself, and dont mind people asking money for their efforts once in a while.
If the OS upgrade doesnt give value for money then noone is forcing you to buy it.
Its like me with Win 7 and 8. I tried Win 8 for a bit. Didnt like it and reverted to Win 7.
Some people like it and some dont. Im not going to hound Microsoft over it tho.
Its not like Hyperion has asked for money at every turn. 6 years since last time or?
I do find it curious that the Amiga community insist that everything have to be free.
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I notice tmhg voicing concerns over what he sees as unfair pricing issues and EVERYONE is lining up to attack him, moderators are quick to delete posts they don't approve of but are not bothered by these attacks.
We classic users saw this as our spiritual home only to see it invaded by rabid os 4 users who already have their own forums, now you are telling us to go from here!
lol surely you've been here for a while so you know TMHTG shtick here:confused: if you just check in every one & a while then read the posts carefully following the OP's and I think you'll see there's no issues at all with classic users as the majority of OS4 users are still 'classic' users:)
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We classic users saw this as our spiritual home only to see it invaded by rabid os 4 users who already have their own forums, now you are telling us to go from here!
I dunno. I've used both, appreciate both... what I don't appreciate are when people turn every innocuous thread into a red v. blue slugfest. Most of the posts by OS4 users seem more like this:
(http://inwallspeakers1.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/happy-computer-user.jpg)
and less like this:
(http://cdn1-www.shocktillyoudrop.com/assets/uploads/2014/05/rabid-dogs.jpg)
But maybe that's just my IMHO. ;)
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I dunno. I've used both, appreciate both... what I don't appreciate are when people turn every innocuous thread into a red v. blue slugfest. Most of the posts by OS4 users seem more like this:
(http://inwallspeakers1.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/happy-computer-user.jpg)
and less like this:
(http://cdn1-www.shocktillyoudrop.com/assets/uploads/2014/05/rabid-dogs.jpg)
But maybe that's just my IMHO. ;)
Hey Mike, I think you got your pictures mixed up! :rofl:
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Please don't try to put users of either platform into any group of personalities. We have both good and bad in both camps. Celebrate the good and ignore the bad is the best advice I can give.
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tmhg has made some valid points. OS4 versioning and pricing seems quite random and gives no confidence about the future. If I had bought OS4.1 I would expect free upgrades to OS4.1 until OS4.2 is released. Just like Windows service packs or AmigaOS boing bags are free and always have been.
By preannouncing FE weeks/months ahead Hyperion have shot themselves in the foot somewhat, as no one is likely going to buy the existing version of OS4 now for hundreds of dollars and not get any updates.
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tmhg has made some valid points. OS4 versioning and pricing seems quite random and gives no confidence about the future. If I had bought OS4.1 I would expect free upgrades to OS4.1 until OS4.2 is released. Just like Windows service packs or AmigaOS boing bags are free and always have been.
By preannouncing FE weeks/months ahead Hyperion have shot themselves in the foot somewhat, as no one is likely going to buy the existing version of OS4 now for hundreds of dollars and not get any updates.
You complain about charging extra for FE in one sentence and then in the next say they should have held back the announcement so they could make more money from new customers.
Is it just me that finds this funny?
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We classic users saw this as our spiritual home only to see it invaded by rabid os 4 users who already have their own forums, now you are telling us to go from here!
I've been using Amiga.org since I had an A1200 as my primary system way back in '99. So I'm certainly not some invading OS4 user even if the A1200 is long gone. I don't consider myself to somehow be a different type of Amiga user to what I was back then.
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You complain about charging extra for FE in one sentence and then in the next say they should have held back the announcement so they could make more money from new customers.
Is it just me that finds this funny?
I never said it shouldn't have been announced. A more logical way for it to have been handled would have been to immediately cut the price of the existing OS4.1 release (to 30 euros or less) at the same time as making the announcement. The way it has been handled doesn't really benefit Hyperion or the users much, it's the worst of both worlds.
OS4.1.7 really should be designated as OS4.2 if it is such a significant upgrade. If it isn't so significant, there's no reason to charge for it.
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tmhg has made some valid points. OS4 versioning and pricing seems quite random and gives no confidence about the future. If I had bought OS4.1 I would expect free upgrades to OS4.1 until OS4.2 is released. Just like Windows service packs or AmigaOS boing bags are free and always have been.
By preannouncing FE weeks/months ahead Hyperion have shot themselves in the foot somewhat, as no one is likely going to buy the existing version of OS4 now for hundreds of dollars and not get any updates.
I agree that the situation is not ideal, but I don't think that anyone involved thought that AmigaOS4.2 would take this long to complete. My disappointment with the whole situation is how Hyperion handled previous promises and announcements regarding what would be included within AmigaOS4.2, which tied their hands. In my mind, maybe it would have been better to just release everything that is completed and tested now as AmigaOS4.2 and apologize for the missing promised features that have taken longer to implement than anticipated, but we all know how critical some members of our community are and there is not any single path that Hyperion could have taken that would have satisfied everyone.
I see no problem is asking for an interim paid update prior to all of the promises made for 4.2 being completed, as I don't mind paying programmers for their time and effort. I don't care what version numbers they use, but as I just wrote, some people would have criticized Hyperion no matter what they did. Users who wish to continue supporting Hyperion's efforts to move forward will buy this latest update, and those who disagree with their actions for what ever reasons, will not.
It certainly is not easy being a Next Gen Amiga user, it never has been easy, but look at the progress that is being made in several areas of our community and I hope you can find something to be happy about and enthusiastic with your support of that part of our community. Knowing a little about your past software development, I would hope that the recent announcements regarding incredible speed increases for FPGA 68k soft cores, would excite you and possibly give you more incentive to do more new programming for the 68k Amiga platforms and clones (but let's not go off topic about that here). Just saying that I think there are better things to do with our time and energy than to complain about a 30 Euro update.
Personally, if I had any criticism of any of our remaining programmers, payment for their time and effort would not be one of them. We have so few knowledgeable programmers left in our community, let us not drive any of them away by complaining about something as trivial as a 30 Euro request for an update.
Your points are valid, but I don't see them as very important in the larger scope of what is going on in our community.
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@AmigaDave
Post #17
"We classic users saw this as our spiritual home only to see it invaded by rabid os 4 users who already have their own forums, "
Rabid os4 users? I consider that a personal attack on me & all os4 users. Getting tired of some getting called for personal attacks & other getting away with it.
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I got lambasted as well when I pointed out that the value for existing, paid in full 4.1 owners is a little less than great.
Of course, the first time buyers that will be buying it (FE) will be ecstatic - 30 Euros versus the 120 Euros or so I paid for 4.1 for SAM440ep. Me, I see it as having to pay for an in-line service pack in the 4.1 chain, and then I'd have to pay for 4.2 again. There's still bugs in 4.1 Update 6, just like there was in u5, u4, etc. - except it seems this time existing users are expected to pay for what to them, isn't a software revolution, but a service pack. I'm sure the PPC emulation guys or others that haven't already paid for 4.1 once already are just ecstatic about a 30 Euro price, so God Speed to them, I guess. Luckily, I don't have to pay for it, and won't. If I keep my SAM, Update 6 will have to do, but more likely I'll just sell it and switch to MOS entirely. I'd hate to upgrade to 4.2 on my SAM and then have 4.2 service packs start costing 30 Euros a pop.
And with that, Hell has officially frozen over. TMHG and I have agreed on something :)
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Me, I see it as having to pay for an in-line service pack in the 4.1 chain, and then I'd have to pay for 4.2 again. There's still bugs in 4.1 Update 6, just like there was in u5, u4, etc. - except it seems this time existing users are expected to pay for what to them, isn't a software revolution, but a service pack.
NOTE: AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition will include new features that were previously going to be released in 4.2, i.e., features that were never going to be released for free to OS 4.1 users.
Hans
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Just saying that I think there are better things to do with our time and energy than to complain about a 30 Euro update.
I wasn't complaining, it's not even something that affects me as I'm not an existing OS4.1 user. I just find Hyperion's business logic a little strange (because they are exposing themself to the Osborne effect - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect) and I'm relieved that I never bought a copy of OS4.1 in the past or during the next month, because I would probably be feeling let down by this. Surely we're all allowed to have an opinion about things and sympathy for fellow users.
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I agree that it is unfair. If there weren't people who paid $200 for it there would be no FE costing $30.
Still I won't complain about being able to get it for $30.
I assume 4.2 will cost $100 or more.
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NOTE: AmigaOS 4.1 Final Edition will include new features that were previously going to be released in 4.2, i.e., features that were never going to be released for free to OS 4.1 users.
Hans
Personal view; I don't mind paying e30 to ensure my hobby is supported.
However, Hans' statement is interesting. These features that were to be in 4.2 will have already been paid for by X1000 buyers who have pre paid for 4.2?
It seems strange to pay for things twice, and is probably what is concerning some users.
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I agree that it is unfair. If there weren't people who paid $200 for it there would be no FE costing $30.
Still I won't complain about being able to get it for $30.
I assume 4.2 will cost $100 or more.
If what I heard at Amiwest is true, all paid updates will cost 30 euros, I'm assuming that means for 4.2 for those who haven't pre-paid already, like the x1000 buyers.
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@ddniUK
Personal view; I don't mind paying e30 to ensure my hobby is supported.
Hopefully more people will feel this way.
It seems strange to pay for things twice, and is probably what is concerning some users.
I don't see it as paying for things twice, especially at the low price that OS 4.1 FE will be sold for. I guess that you could call it paying to get access to those features sooner.
Don't worry, OS 4.2 will be worth its price based on the new features that it will bring (i.e., features that won't be part of OS 4.1 FE)
Hans
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From my "new" user perspective: 30 quid is an absolute bargain for a boxed OS, especially after several years worth of free patches. I'd have happily paid more, as it is I hope Hyperion sell/make enough to encourage and allow them to carry on.
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However, Hans' statement is interesting. These features that were to be in 4.2 will have already been paid for by X1000 buyers who have pre paid for 4.2?
I kind of thought that too. I think the X1000 users should be given the choice if they want to support by paying 30€ or not. The same with the HD Radeon drivers IMO. And then get a huge "thank you for your extra support" in the credit list or something.
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68363
@TMHG
I'm a dedicated MorphOS user myself and I used to have a huge grudge against AmigaOS 4 because of my previous bad experience with my AmigaOne 500 and the response I got because of it's short comings (spring 2012). I'm over that now. I've found my home and I'm happy there. Others have found there home with AmigaOS 4 and are happy there.
AmigaOS 3.9 and before, AmigaOS 4, MorphOS and AROS are all hobby os'es. A hobby is something you do for fun, plain and simple. Let people have their fun in peace. As long as people have a chance to try out all the alternatives you can't fault them for choosing "the other camp".
That said, I think there should be more cooperation between the camps. Not between the different development teams (competition is good. Or at least inevitable) but between third party software developers. More multi-platform support of your programs. Don't stick to one platform! This could IMO turn this never ending flame war fest into one camp once again where the choice between an AmigaOS 4 machine and a MorphOS or AROS machine doesn't feel any different than if you chose a A600 with WB 2.05 or an A1200 with WB 3.1. Different flavours, same family.
And damn the self-righteous! I got better things to do with my machine than hating away :D
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I paid for a good education at a private university and have a good job with a good income; that being said I have used Amiga's extensively and continuously from 1986 and find OS4.1 brilliant, with my Hyperion OS4.1 Classic forum threads having the highest number of hits/readers on the site (one is near 40,000). So $37.39 USD is nothing to support my hobby, the developers, the Amiga in general, and my happier and less stressful life than all the curmudgeons trolling the forums searching for a way to bolster their poor, sad lives by feeling something they said was smarter than "the other guy," who ever that is.
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That said, I think there should be more cooperation between the camps. Not between the different development teams (competition is good. Or at least inevitable) but between third party software developers. More multi-platform support of your programs. Don't stick to one platform! This could IMO turn this never ending flame war fest into one camp once again where the choice between an AmigaOS 4 machine and a MorphOS or AROS machine doesn't feel any different than if you chose a A600 with WB 2.05 or an A1200 with WB 3.1. Different flavours, same family.
And damn the self-righteous! I got better things to do with my machine than hating away :D
best thing i've read all day. +1. :)
-- eliyahu
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Duce, its your money, and obviously if you dont feel you get value for it, then not upgrading is fair game.
Personally I have never used AOS4 before. I joined AOS bandwagon after Toni did his PPC emulation, and I suspect Im not the only one.
As for pricing between versions; I just checked my local computer shop out of curiosity since we are making such a fuzz about it; Windows 7 is sold in store at the same price as Windows 8 (full price, and quite expensive), even after Win 8 have been out for a long time.
The store bought stocks of Win CDs for x price, and obviously wants to recover that cost.
I suspect its even more important for Amigakit to maintain the same salesprice to recover the cost due to lower sales volumes. Selling at a loss on our platform seems more critical from where Im sitting.
So, even tho my purchase of AOS 4 fullprice is relativly recent, I will defintly line up for both the FE version AND becoming AmigaStore customer.
Its now 6 years since last paid version of the OS? Just cause me or you purchased it x months ago doesnt change that fact.
I would be more worried that they DIDNT charge for a new OS version soon, cause how can they pay their developers without any income stream. Or any lisencing costs if needed.
If you operate with NO costrecouping, then you will stop dead in your tracks, no matter how idealistic you are.
I know this logic doesnt compute with the Moobunnies, but it was about time Hyperion charged for their OS again!
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Many words AmigaDave.
TJ
Fixed that for you ;=)
@sundown
Rabid os4 users? I consider that a personal attack on me & all os4 users. Getting tired of some getting called for personal attacks & other getting away with it.
Well if you insist on being in the somewaht smaller subgroup of "rabid os4 users" instead of just the supergroup "OS4 users" .... then well more chocolate bars for you !
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Of course, it's still up to the user if they want to spend their money. Choice is a wonderful thing. I'd honestly happily buy FE if I could be sure that if after that, if I bought 4.2 that I wouldn't be needing to pay another 30E for every 4.2 Update. I spend more on coffee and meals at work per day than what FE costs, so it's not a matter of cost. The cost is more than reasonable as long as every little update in the future isn't a pay for deal.
But it's still an in line, in rev. update. I'm still being asked to pay 30 euros for an update to 4.1, an operating system that I already paid well over 100 euros for in the first place. I'd be just as annoyed if MS was charging for in-line, in rev. updates (aka Service Packs). This being said, it's one heck of a bargain for people entering the ecosystem, but I fear the future of all this and I am sincerely debating getting out of the OS4 game entirely, as in selling my OS4 machines outright. That really annoys me in itself, since I'm finally developing for the platform and I'm having great fun with it :/ Of course, it's my option entirely
What I fear is I'd pay 30e for FE, then: 4.2 comes out and I'd need to spend another 100e or better on it (which is nearly twice what I paid for OEM Windows quite recently, btw) - then perhaps OS 4.2 Update 1 comes out and I'd be expected to pay another 30 euros for 4.2 Update 1, then another 30 E for 4.2 U2, another 30E for 4.2 Update 3, so on and so forth.
I fear getting milked out of my hard earned cash like I'm a stolen goat every single minuscule update.
Anyone from Hyperion willing to comment the upgrade path in the long term future on all this and whether or not every in line update from here on in will cost money? It's a fair question and needs answering if it can be answered, especially when people that have paid (overpaid?) for the full 100 E 4.1 already. I by no means begrudge a company from wanting to make money, but such questions are important to me and a real determining factor on if I am to stick with a platform. I would have quit using Windows ages ago if they had charged for in line updates (aka Service Packs) and I haven't paid for a single OS X update since I got my one Mac 4 years ago, even on full rev updates.
I simply don't like things that aren't much more than subscription software rackets that are being masqueraded as something else, is all. I'm sure that makes some sense, especially to the people that paid through the nose for 4.1 like I did. Like I said, I'd feel the same if MS tried charging for the upgrade from Windows 8.0 to Windows 8.1, or started charging for any other in line SP's.
Forgive me if it seems like I'm wagging my finger at Hyperion. In fact, I feel they are doing the smart thing offering FE for so cheap in light of UAE supporting PPC emulation, and I have no doubts they will sell many copies of FE. I'd just like to know if I'm going to end up paying 30 for every little update in the in line rev.
What about the bugs currently in 4.1 U6? Will those get fixed at all, or we must pay for FE to simply have long standing bugs fixed? I'm just fine with paying for snazzy new features, but let's not ignore the fact there are bugs in U6 as is.
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When watching AmigaWest ssolie was asked about patches for the current AOS 4.1 version.
And IF I remember correctly He said that if they found some serious bugs/stuff that needed to be adressed critically then they would update.
For normal updates FE was the baseline.
Please correct me if Im wrong.
That said; risking Hyperion asking for money for every patch/upgrade; just to rehash my comment above; isnt the last time they asked for money 2008? And every update/patch since then have been free?
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Let us just settle this debate with our wallets .
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If they said free updates till 4.2 and now are going back on their word...
They can't expect people not to complain.
Another money grab.
did x1000 users ever get all their drivers yet? I know thats perhaps a separate issue but not really... People making then breaking promises seems to be a c common thing in AOS4 land...
Whats next prepaying and getting promised a T-shirt?
:laughing:
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I am looking for any such promise and I cant find It.
http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=1&Itemid=65
http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=135:update-1-of-amigaos-41-available-for-immediate-download&catid=36:amigaos-4x&Itemid=18
http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=132:new-amigaos-41-quick-fix-available&catid=36:amigaos-4x&Itemid=18
http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=59:amigaos-41-gone-gold&catid=36:amigaos-4x&Itemid=18
If they said free updates till 4.2 and now are going back on their word...
They can't expect people not to complain.
Another money grab.
did x1000 users ever get all their drivers yet? I know thats perhaps a separate issue but not really... People making then breaking promises seems to be a c common thing in AOS4 land...
Whats next prepaying and getting promised a T-shirt?
:laughing:
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If I'm having a lot fun with AmigaOS 4.1 - which I do - then I'm quite happy to pay 30 EUR for an update once a year if that's what they want. On a subscription model, when the subscription ends, you lose the use of the program. That is not the case here, so it is not a subscription model.
If we want Hyperion to continue making an OS for us to enjoy, then we as users have to be willing to stump up a bit of cash every now and again. Principles aside, that's just the reality of the situation. They have bills to pay and mouths to feed, just as we do.
I really don't see 30 Euros as being so much to get uppity about, and I think many of us more than get our money's worth out of it.
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If they said free updates till 4.2 and now are going back on their word...
They can't expect people not to complain
Well, they could have simply named it 4.2 instead of 4.17 and stated that mesa and multicore support would be added in update 4.21.They could also charge again for 4.21 since they have made no promises regarding 4.2's pricing structure.
I prefer that they called it 4.17, and have lowered the price as a concession. Seems fair.
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I was asked to modify my original post by a moderator so the small bit you posted quoted below from my post is out of context without the rest.
I just did not have time to go in and nit-pick stuff out so just decided to cut it all.
What I was trying to say is this.... it has been a very long time folks. Some are unhappy with certain OS and companies, etc.... Yes %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! happens as they say. It does suck but there is a certain time to move on.
The way I handle life is if I am so unhappy with something, someone, whatever.... I move on. I feel most in this life do just that. Move on.
Why torture yourself year after year being unhappy. Life is short and family, friends, and a list of other things are SOOOO much more important than any computer.
So my recommendation was move on to something that makes you happy.
That was all I was trying to discuss.
You will see I seldom post here or any Amiga based forum any more. The little wars all seem rather silly to me. What I don't like is reading the same over and over and over and over statements from some that drone on things. Most come here to have fun discussing Amiga based OS and hardware and it would be mighty nice if everyone could do the same and leave their own grudges at home and come here to help others with any of the Amiga based platforms.
That would be a nice thing!
TJ
Originally Posted by amigasociety (http://www.amiga.org/forums/web/buttons/viewpost.gif) (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?p=777286#post777286)
Move on! Leave us alone. If you don't like it, then go do something else.
I notice tmhg voicing concerns over what he sees as unfair pricing issues and EVERYONE is lining up to attack him, moderators are quick to delete posts they don't approve of but are not bothered by these attacks.
We classic users saw this as our spiritual home only to see it invaded by rabid os 4 users who already have their own forums, now you are telling us to go from here!
Edit by Moderator: The above statement is not true. As soon as I saw the post with personal attacks in it, I immediately contacted the posting member and asked that they self moderate their post and remove any personal attacks. It is difficult for some to express differences of opinions without wandering into personal attacks, but when it happens, the moderators here will attempt to get the offending posters to correct their mistakes. If you notice any personal attacks we have missed, please use the "Report Post" button to bring any offending post to our attention. We can't be everywhere all of the time.
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Off topic post moved to it's own thread by moderator, as it did not contain any content related to the original post or topic of this thread.
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Reply to off topic moved to the new thread about one OS for all by moderator. You can continue this discussion there if you like.
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Reply to off topic post moved to new thread by moderator
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Is there time to reprint the 4.1FE packaging to call it 5.0 instead? Then 4.2 can be 6.0 (or 10!), and everybody will be happy.
Or not :)
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Reply to off topic post moved to new thread by moderator.
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Reply to off topic post moved to new thread by moderator
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I think 30 Euros for AOS 4.1.x is a reasonable price, and I would jump on it if I had some hardware to run it. And you know, I might get it just for the hell of it. I see some people want to run it under emulation, but I dont see a point doing that.
I wonder if Hyperion could make OS4 run on old PPC Mac Mini. I have seen few videos of OS4 running on Mac Mini with some boot problems.
Now,... if MorphOS for Mac Mini was reduced to 30 Euros, I would buy it RIGHT now! My old Mac is waiting.
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Now,... if MorphOS for Mac Mini was reduced to 30 Euros, I would buy it RIGHT now! My old Mac is waiting.
You can download it and try it out for free, 30 minutes at the time you know :)
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You can download it and try it out for free, 30 minutes at the time you know :)
I know about the trial time limit.
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Reply to off topic post moved to new thread by moderator.
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Let us just settle this debate with our wallets .
Two Thumbs Up!
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I wasn't complaining, it's not even something that affects me as I'm not an existing OS4.1 user. I just find Hyperion's business logic a little strange (because they are exposing themself to the Osborne effect - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect) and I'm relieved that I never bought a copy of OS4.1 in the past or during the next month, because I would probably be feeling let down by this. Surely we're all allowed to have an opinion about things and sympathy for fellow users.
My expression, quoted above, of thinking that anyone who complains about paying for a 30 Euro update is a waste of time and energy which could be better used elsewhere should not be misconstrued as a statement that people are not free to express their opinions about any topic. I just meant that IMO this topic does not deserve any of my time, but has obviously taken up a great deal of my time in reading and responding to this thread.
All members are free to express their opinions on any (hopefully Amiga related) topics here, as long as they follow the posting guidelines in how they express themselves.
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Personal view; I don't mind paying e30 to ensure my hobby is supported.
Neither do I
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- Deleted -
Violation TOS
No Vulgar/inappropriate Behavior.
No Personal Attacks
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I've been wondering, "What encourages developers for a small installed-base OS to continue to program?" I mean that if it wasn't hard work, everybody would be doing it.
Does being negative and bashing their work help? Would paying them money to do something (that others troll the forums to complain about) be a positive motivation?
If you can do better for free and take the abuse, then jump right in!:laughing:
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"What encourages developers for a small installed-base OS to continue to program?" ... Would paying them money to do something be a positive motivation?
Developers *actually getting paid* would indeed be a very good thing for motivation!
:lol:
(Sorry for the "smash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smash_(tennis))", but you really served me a "smash ball" there ;))
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And I must say that it's especially rewarding when people like "Oldsmobile_Mike" join in on the mob.
Bitch, bitch, whine, snip. Thanks, you just made up my mind for me to buy a copy of 4.1 FE when it's available. I don't have enough time to support nearly all of my hobbies (because sorry, I have a life outside of the Internet), but I believe in supporting the developers. Bye!
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Even one of the site's moderators is participating, instead of cleaning things up.
Not true, I have asked members to self edit their posts when they have violated a Posting Guideline rule, or did you conveniently overlook that post by amigasociety?
If you have any complaints about any of the posts in this thread, please use the "Report Post" button to bring it to our attention.
As a rule, moderators try to refrain from moderating in a thread that they are actively participating in, so forgive me if I ask one of the other moderators to handle any reported posts in which the members refuse to self edit out any violations they have posted.
Members who post opposing opinions to yours are not automatically considered a personal attack. If your claims were true about the corporate mentality of this site, your original post would have been deleted shortly after it was first posted.
Edit: I find it laughable that you are implying that more moderation is needed on this site. I guess it only applies to what gets moderated not being aligned with your point of view to satisfy your perception of what should be moderated and what should not.
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Bitch, bitch, whine, snip. Thanks, you just made up my mind for me to buy a copy of 4.1 FE when it's available.
/me pats the Schäfer on its head: Good Boy! And get yourself a X1000 for it as well while you are in this charity mode, so you'll actually have some *use* for it!
I believe in supporting the developers.
So do I, this was obviously never the issue here.
:rolleyes:
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get yourself a X1000 for it as well while you are in this charity mode, so you'll actually have some *use* for it
How about donating me one of yours, since obviously they have you so frothing at the mouth you can't bear to look at them? ;)
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Boring :(
I think it's fair to assume that the X1000 users who was originally promised a free OS4.2 when it gets available, will have to pay for it in the end.
I think that it is a fair assume that you are not a position to assume anything about that.
This whole thread is a fake, I don't belive that TMHGM has bought a copy of OS4, nor used it. There was a thread wich made it quite clear. This whole thread is purposely targetted to spread FUD.
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@takemehomegrandma
I have an entirely serious question. Given the following, in what I assume is more or less chronological order:
1) You started off with OS4.0 in the A1 XE days
2) You had a poor experience (not atypical for the A1/OS4.0 combo)
3) You switched to MorphOS (presumably getting a Peg2 around that time)
4) You had a much better experience
5) You subsequently became one of the most vocal advocates of MorphOS, rarely missing an opportunity to point out it's superiority over OS4
Why *on earth* did you ever buy OS4.1 for the Peg2? It makes about as much sense as me buying pork chops and a crate of beer.
It really doesn't seem like a rational thing to have done for someone in your position. Long before 4.1 for Pegasos2 was ever available you'd already made the switch; I can clearly remember you advocating MorphOS long before 4.1 was available for any platform.
You said above:
I feel double-tricked, there is no way to move either forwards or backwards without either losing money already spent, or spend even more money.
While I do sympathise with the sentiment that you feel are losing out on second hand retail value, it seems like this was a situation you could (and by rights should) have avoided easily. There's an old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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I ask one of the other moderators to handle any reported posts
I don't "report" posts, never had, never will. This is a fundamental on-line principle I have.
Members who post opposing opinions to yours are not automatically considered a personal attack.
But come on. Look at post #1 in this thread, and then on the following three pages. Compare the intellectual level, compare their purposes and their contents. Only 2 or 3 are actually discussing the topic, the rest are about ridiculing in flock, character assassination, etc. But I digress, this has been the norm in every single OS4 centric site I have ever visited. I knew what was coming the minute I pressed the "Submit" button.
If your claims were true about the corporate mentality of this site, your original post would have been deleted shortly after it was first posted.
Mind you, this was my 2nd try to raise focus on this subject.
:rolleyes:
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What will a realistic second hand price of a 30 Euro OS be? One half, 15 Euros? Or one tenth, 3 Euros? More likely the latter. Which is pretty much equal to zero. Not worth the effort.
I once spent almost 140 Euros on OS4.1 for Pegasos2 (including VAT and shipment of the physical CD I never asked for, and never used). Now they will ask another 30 Euros for the 7th update of OS4.1. Including VAT and shipment, that price could very well double, when talking about EU customers. So in the end I will probably have spent around 200 Euros on OS4.1 (not even OS4.2!!).
What I really wanted to say with the "second hand" argument, was that if I would ever want to sell my OS4.1 enabled Pegasos2, I will no longer be able to add a (for me) fair "including OS4.1" argument to the price. This would previously have been a quite important part of the price I could hope to ask in total.
So instead of asking something like "Price for a second hand Pegasos2 G4 + 1/2 of 140 Euros (70 Euros) for OS4.1", the price will more realistically be "Price for a second hand Pegasos2 G4 + 1/10 of 30 Euros (3 Euros) for OS 4.1". Three bloody Euros aren’t even worth mentioning!
So after having spent close to 200 Euros on OS4.1, I could probably hope for 3 Euros in second hand value for it whenever I sell my Pegasos2. And it will still only be OS4.1. The one with "free updates". OS4.1.7 will be another 4.1 version bump, followed by a new stream of minor updates through "AmiUpdate" just like before. This could very well mark the first step in ssolie's "subscription" idea, I guess we'll see when "OS4.1.8" sees the day of light...
Seriously? You expect a OS from 2008 to have any value 6 years++ down the road?
In a drawer next to me I have WB 1.3, 3.0, 3.1, 3.9, windows 95, windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows 7 and 8. I would be suprised If I got a lukewarm bottle of coke for them second hand.
The way I see it; the OS only got USERvalue, no resale value, no matter the platform.
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Do people really care that much about "second hand retail value" of a thing? When you buy a phone, or a t-shirt, or a TV, or... anything, really... except for maybe a car or a house... do you care how much money you can get for it after it's exhausted it's usefulness to you? Or do you care more about the features and what it offers you, and the enjoyment you might get out of owning it? If you buy an iPhone and then later switch to Android, do you continue to berate the old phone every chance you get, years down the road? Meh. Just ruminating, since I really don't understand it. Go have fun with what you like, but don't berate others for their choices. Life is too short for all of this mess. :(
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I don't "report" posts, never had, never will. This is a fundamental on-line principle I have.
Well, that is too bad, because besides writing a PM to one of the moderators (which I assume you also would never do, because of your "on-line principle") it is the only method available to bring posts which contain any posting violations to the attention of the moderators and explain why you think such post is a violation.
Other members are free to express their opinions of your actions, as long as they don't cross the line into personal attacks. IMO, I have already asked members to remove all personal attacks from their forum posts, but I may have missed one or two. If you want to point them out to me, I will gladly work toward correcting any violations.
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Boring :(
I think that it is a fair assume that you are not a position to assume anything about that.
This whole thread is a fake, I don't belive that TMHGM has bought a copy of OS4, nor used it. There was a thread wich made it quite clear. This whole thread is purposely targetted to spread FUD.
OMG!!!
:rolleyes:
(Attaching a picture of my OS4.1 box)
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Picture doens't proof anything.
At time of OS4 MUI release you wrote some opinons about OS4 funtionality, wich gave me a picture there is a quite lot things about OS4 wich you don't know.
I wouldn't thing that OS itself has any second hand value. Hardware wich run it has a value, so selling you Pegasos II with OS4 and MorphOS would make selling easier.
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@Karlos
Why on Earth do you believe these are relevant questions - in the context of my #1 post here - to ask me? I have seen several posts in this thread similar to this one. Why does it matter to what I have to say about Hyperion changing the rules in the middle of the game, "breaking the deal" about OS4.1 updates being free, 4.2 being the next version costing money?
People dream about "Amiga's Return" in the shape of OS4, but there is a lot of things in this thread suggesting that you simply aren't ready, you couldn't handle *real* people (from "outside" the cult) asking *real* questions about usability and ethics of OS4 and its parties! This thread is a school book example of this!
I bought OS4 because 1) I'm an Amigan, 2) I like to follow with my own eyes what's really happening, how things are evolving, 3) I have no problem in supporting my hobby with my money. I ended up on place #14 (http://power2people.org/projects/odyssey/) with my $102 for the Odyssey bounty, which finally brought a real, decent browser (or at least the chance of it happening) to OS4. (Which place did you end up in, "Oldsmobile_Mike"?) Yes I do favor MorphOS any day (this has never been a topic of this thread, despite many people's tries), Yes I advocate MorphOS in public (not in this thread BTW, and not in the other one (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68363) either (I edited out the one and only short reference to MorphOS I made so that moderators wouldn't perceive the thread of being "Blue vs. Red flamefest" but a genuine OS4-only discussion, not that it helped much in the end, but I tried)). But why wouldn't I be allowed to own an OS4.1 setup at the same time to learn about it? And why would my "MorphOS preference" be of any relevance to the issue I raised in Post #1? Doesn't MorphOS, AROS, Amiga, Windows, MacOS, Linux etc user have the right to own and have an opinions on OS4?
It's obviously all about Gospel. Everyone must sing. And some people does even if they haven't got a clue and not being part of it. This is why OS4 will fail, "real people" (general computer users, meaning "outsiders", and more specifically Alternative OS Enthusiasts) will never accept this "Cult and Worship" idea. And you don't see this requirement in the MorphOS or AROS communities BTW...
This has been a valuable thread, something to learn from, in several dimensions. I'm glad I started it.
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Well, there are different approaches to how things are "called out".
Dan Woods/Kookytech and Epsilon covers all things Amiga, and Kooky has said on several occations that he thinks MorphOS is better atm than AOS. Tbh, from what Ive seen I find it hard to argue with him on that point.
But he does so in a coherent, collected, systematic and sometimes even funny manner. Not coming off like a frothing ranter.
I dont see any reason to belittle other peoples choice of platform, nor the developers for them.
I wouldnt register on MorphZone for example just to go riot about how it compares to XYZ OS's. They, like AOS and AROS got limited resources and developers in general, so expections of progress have to be accordingly.
Then again, either "side" seems to have their share of atagonizers in it for the "lolz", so its a thankless job for the moderators.
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- Deleted -
Violation TOS
No Vulgar/inappropriate Behavior.
No Personal Attacks
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As long as you dont apply for the MorphOS Public Relations officer, I think it will work out fine.
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Well, there are different approaches to how things are "called out".
Dan Woods/Kookytech and Epsilon covers all things Amiga, and Kooky has said on several occations that he thinks MorphOS is better atm than AOS. Tbh, from what Ive seen I find it hard to argue with him on that point.
But he does so in a coherent, collected, systematic and sometimes even funny manner. Not coming off like a frothing ranter.
I dont see any reason to belittle other peoples choice of platform, nor the developers for them.
I wouldnt register on MorphZone for example just to go riot about how it compares to XYZ OS's. They, like AOS and AROS got limited resources and developers in general, so expections of progress have to be accordingly.
Then again, either "side" seems to have their share of atagonizers in it for the "lolz", so its a thankless job for the moderators.
Not once in post #1 did I mention MorphOS, not once did I discuss pros/cons, not once did I belittle other peoples choice (which I actually share, having actually bought OS4.1 for my Pegasos2, although my preference obviously *is* MorphOS). Neither did I register here to go riot how MorphOS compares to XYZ OS.
Post #1 had nothing to do with sides. It was all about Hyperion's changed pricing policy for OS4.1. All Red. Nothing Blue.
You are a prime example of what I meant with "schizophrenia" above. You can't see what's actually there, you are debating ghosts. Fighting windmills.
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Not really.
I was commenting on a general basis the tone and how to present a case. I could use AROS, Toothbrush, AOS, MorphOS, a dish at the local resturant as an example.
Its how some people argue with a realtivly friendly demeanor, and then some jump up and down throwing arguments at people like snowballs.
The case at hand has nothing to do with that.
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With all your comments about "refer to post #1", I went back and read it again. Were you actually asking a question with that post, or as someone else pointed out, just being a "frothing ranter"? (I think that's my new favorite term of the week, BTW) ;)
You might want to refer back to this politely worded post (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=777281&postcount=8). You get more flies with honey than with vinegar, after all. :rolleyes:
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Not really.
I was commenting on a general basis the tone and how to present a case. I could use AROS, Toothbrush, AOS, MorphOS, a dish at the local resturant as an example.
Its how some people argue with a realtivly friendly demeanor, and then some jump up and down throwing arguments at people like snowballs.
The case at hand has nothing to do with that.
Well, when writing post #1 in this thread, I wasn't happy about the subject of the post. This is still the case. Even more so after 3 pages of abuse. This reflects my tone. I claim the right to put forward an "unhappy tone" when I'm not happy with something.
However I never mentioned anything else than OS4, didn't compare it to anything at all, didn't belittle anyone, didn't troll, didn't spread FUD, did *nothing* besides what's in post #1. Basically, this thread is three pages of reactions to something that simply was never there.
Post #1 is still there if you want to read it again.
And of course, so is the 3 pages of responses.
This thread is worthy of a bookmark for future schoolbook examples!
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You might want to refer back to this politely worded post (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=777281&postcount=8)
- You disregard the commonly know fact that paying OS4.1 customers would receive free upgrades until OS4.2
- You side with "gizmo350's" rather weird views that it lies within *my* responsibility (as an end-user, no - rather a *potential* end user - according to him) to actually research a road-map for OS4 and their future upgrade policies regarding various HW platforms before I buy, from an entity that is notoriously more silent than a Black Hole on anything more future than a year in the past?
- You actually *blame me* for ending up being a somewhat disgruntled customer, because of 1) and 2) above?
You continue to amaze me, Oldsmobile_Mike.
:laughing:
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You actually *blame me* for ending up being a somewhat disgruntled customer, because of 1) and 2) above?
No, I blame you for your vitriolic and offensive ranting in every thread possible, turning off users in droves, when you probably could've resolved all of this by polite discussion via PM with people who actually have some say over how this software is licensed and sold. How many hours have you spent on forum posting to promote your opinion? I would calculate that into however much you claim to have spent, factoring for depreciation, clearly your time is not worth very much if you have so much of it free to waste on this. :laughing:
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I think what most people take into account when they comment about these platforms;
1) Manpower and limited resources
2) Little return for efforts (for developers)
If I bought a Wintel computer with Windows 8 or whatever, I expect state of the art for the sum you currently get X1000 for.
Even the cost of SAM 460 will net you a very nice Wintel machine.
So when we buy that kind of gear we expect instant response and resolution when something goes wrong. Something needs updated? Go to internet and voila, its fixed instantly for any addtional gear.
When we buy OS or hardware on our platforms we to a certain extent have to take 1 and 2 into consideration. If you havent gone into a purchase with that in the back of your head, then as Karlos said "shame on you".
That doesnt mean I wont hold AmigaKits feet to the fire if something they deliver arrives broken. But there is enough information out there to let you make your own wellinformed evaluation BEFORE you spend the money.
Crying "bloody murder" after the fact seems a bit odd.
And with the fact that its been 6 years since last time they asked for a payment for OS expansion/patch/upgrade, I dont find it unreasonable. If you compare the value vs performance to the MASS production market, then you have really a wrong perspective, and you cant blame anybody except yourself.
Anyhow; this sounds like a discussion done to death 100s of times, so Im gonna check out of it.
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How many replies to this thread are the mods here going to move, edit, delete or censor...?
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Where is this stated or documented ?
- You disregard the commonly know fact that paying OS4.1 customers would receive free upgrades until OS4.2
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Amiga is a hobby. Hobbies usually cost money. 200 euros over six years sounds like a damn good bargain to me.
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@ TMHTG
+ 1, what spirantho said below :-)
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@takemehomegrandma
I think the problem people have with your post starting the thread, is this:
Would your reaction have been the same if it had been MorphOS that had suddenly asked for 30 Euros for next update? I think many of us suspect that instead of that, you would have posted about how "MorphOS is now the cheapest, as well as the best OS" and "MorphOS is now allowing people to support their devs again after years of unpaid work!".
I don't mean this as an attack (it's not) but I do think that that's why people are sceptical of your original post's intention.
Being honest, if MorphOS suddenly reduced its price, would you care about the resale value your machines? Or would you be excited at the
prospect of new users?
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Would your reaction have been the same if it had been MorphOS that had suddenly asked for 30 Euros for next update? I think many of us suspect that instead of that, you would have posted about how "MorphOS is now the cheapest, as well as the best OS" and "MorphOS is now allowing people to support their devs again after years of unpaid work!".
This.
Furthermore, there'd be nothing wrong with such a reaction. The MorphOS devs have worked hard and deserve some remuneration for their efforts. It's to their credit that they've managed to churn out so many free updates for registered users. I strongly doubt any of their userbase would complain at a paid for update, especially at a significantly reduced rate.
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T The MorphOS devs ...... I strongly doubt any of their userbase would complain at a paid for update, especially at a significantly reduced rate.
Actually I would as it would:
- set precedent for following updates to also be paid for
- splinter the userbase into subsets running different versions of the OS
Now, I do have 5 paid licences active around here, for which I paid between 79 (PowerMac G4) and 150Euro (Efika) plus 1 freebie and 2 licenced pieces of HW that I sold on, so it's surely not a money thing and I would cladly add another if the ever add support for another HW that I deem interesting.
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Actually I would as it would:
- set precedent for following updates to also be paid for
- splinter the userbase into subsets running different versions of the OS
So, would you say that purchasing a license once ought to entitle the buyer for free updates for that installation indefinitely?
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I say with a "market" that small, thats the smartest way.
Entiltlement really isn't an issue here, but making sure that one doesn't change the rule midgame or comes around as a bunch of #### just in it for $$.
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I say with a "market" that small, thats the smartest way.
Entiltlement really isn't an issue here, but making sure that one doesn't change the rule midgame or comes around as a bunch of #### just in it for $$.
Surely that model only works as long as you continue to attract new users. It's a small community. If every halfway active amiga user today bought a license, at some point the flow of cash would dry up all together.
More to the point, it's hard to "be in it for the $$" in a market this small. Be realistic ;)
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This.
Furthermore, there'd be nothing wrong with such a reaction. The MorphOS devs have worked hard and deserve some remuneration for their efforts. It's to their credit that they've managed to churn out so many free updates for registered users. I strongly doubt any of their userbase would complain at a paid for update, especially at a significantly reduced rate.
I agree! I would gladly pay for updates to MorphOS, but as kronos just mentioned, there might be a few who disagree with it on principle of setting a precedent. Perhaps if they did it only after announcing the intention to charge a "one time" update fee, or instead, a once every x number of years update fee, then perhaps even the users who object to a precedent being set would happily pay for certain updates.
MorphOS Dev. Team, to my knowledge has never promised that ALL future updates would be free, but that impression has been growing and reinforced by the number of free updates to this point in time.
The big difference between Hyperion and the MorphOS Dev. Team, is that one is run as a commercial company (loosely fits that description), and the other is more like a collaboration of like minded individuals with a silent administrator (or group of administrators), most of whom work for free on the MorphOS project.
I don't think that either entity makes enough income from their license sales to pay for anything more than some beer and pizza for the programmers occasionally. :)
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Really have to be up to the developers as a team to decide what they think they need resource wise. Its them putting in the effort, and if they feel they need some income to justify the time spent, then I dont see a problem.
There will always be someone that will throw a fit over it, but what can you do.
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@Karlos
a) there are no new users to be gained in significant number
b) there are no new users to be gained in significant number
c) make your mind up, either your a buisness (than better go somewhere with atleast the chance of turning a profit) or you are doing your hobby (which means the best you can expect is the users covering your actual expenses)
Some people should really make their mind up, cos the convinent flipfloping is more than a bit annyoing (read they are a "pro" buisness when there are some pennies to be made, but doing a labor of love when it comes to the product falling short of promises).
@AmigaDave
For legal/tax reasons both OS4 and MorphOS have registered buisnesses running them, but when it comes to actually being a buisness things turn different. You know caring bout consumer satisfaction, thruthful advertising, quality or even holding up to once made promises.
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@Karlos
a) there are no new users to be gained in significant number
b) there are no new users to be gained in significant number
This only strengthens the argument *for* paid for updates. Once you exhaust all the new user registrations, all you have is unpaid support forever and nothing to cover costs. That means that either the covering of costs was never an issue (in which case the registration charge itself is an unnecessary charge) or something else has to change. Which implies one of the following:
1) All major (non contribution) development ceases because costs are no longer covered.
2) Future updates become chargeable in order to cover costs.
3) You adopt a donation based strategy in order to cover costs.
4) You bite the bullet and go free and or open source because covering costs isn't actually an issue in the first place.
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Hi all.
As a paying OS4 customer (been using OS4 on and off since the very first release for Amigaone XE G4), I just wanted to raise the issue of the new pricing policy regarding "OS4.1 FE", which in practice will be the seventh update of OS4.1.
I must say I feel more than a little tricked by this strange and sudden move.
I once paid 138,85 EUR (incl vat and shipment) for OS 4.1 (the Pegasos version) and had to wait 2 weeks for a worthless CD I never had any use for (it has never even entered my CD-ROM, not once), since you have to download the "4.1 update 1" ISO the first thing you do anyway, and install the OS from there. All the 4.1 updates were supposed to be included, that was always "the deal", right? But now rules have changed, and as reported in this thread (http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=68363) I now obviously have to spend *even more* money on *another* worthless physical "OS4.1" CD if I want to be able to download further 4.1 updates from the Internet.
Also, the second hand market for OS4.1 disappeared in one blow by this. It will be impossible for me to sell "OS4.1.6", no matter the price, since it suddenly was rendered utterly worthless. Of course I knew that "OS4.2" would once again mean a new purchase (as has been communicated all along), but since I (and I'm not the only one) looks at "4.2" as some kind of utopia (with a promised feature set that is quite impossible in an *Amiga compatible* environment) I was - and still am - quite convinced that it will never actually happen, or at least take a *very* long time. So while I of course bought OS4.1 to use it, I still kind of presumed that there would be an option open to sell it as second hand to someone else down the road as long as "4.2" hadn't been released.
But this obviously changed with this sudden and unexpected decision to charge money once again for an OS4.1 update already!
I feel double-tricked, there is no way to move either forwards or backwards without either losing money already spent, or spend even more money. And remaining passive is not really an option either, since all upcoming OS4.1 updates will require "OS4.1.7"/"FE". I feel that this was never the deal. OS4.2 was to be the next paid update.
I think this really sucks.
:(
PRINCE
This letter doth make good the friar's words,
Their course of love, the tidings of her death:
And here he writes that he did buy a poison
Of a poor 'pothecary, and therewithal
Came to this vault to die, and lie with Juliet.
Where be these enemies? Capulet! Montague!
See, what a scourge is laid upon your hate,
That heaven finds means to kill your joys with love.
And I for winking at your discords too
Have lost a brace of kinsmen: all are punish'd.
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1) what cost are there ? Developers buying new HW or traveling to user meetings and maybe hosting fees for the website. With some smart and frugal accounting the sums collected for the initial licence can go a mighty long way
3) if you make it clear, what the users get for what $$ I really don't see a problem here, much more honest..... and if you think about it, those bounties probraly earned more money then that 29.95 upgrade will ever do (even more if you substract taxes, dealer marging and cost of producing the actual CD)
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1) what cost are there ?
If there aren't any, then the registration charge, which is not insignificant, itself is unnecessary. I'm assuming there must be, because there is a registration charge, which you need to pay for each system it's installed on. Furthermore there are rules dictating how an existing license is transferred if your hardware dies. All of which implies the registration charge is necessary, or why go to that much effort to ensure users pay it?
With some smart and frugal accounting the sums collected for the initial licence can go a mighty long way
And then run out. And then what?
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1) what cost are there ?
Developers don't need to eat? Pay rent?
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This only strengthens the argument *for* paid for updates. Once you exhaust all the new user registrations, all you have is unpaid support forever and nothing to cover costs.
Instead of selling updates you can sell more computers to existing users. Already have PowerMac, PowerBook and iBook? No problem, G5 is all you want ;)
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Instead of selling updates you can sell more computers to existing users. Already have PowerMac, PowerBook and iBook? No problem, G5 is all you want ;)
I can well imagine my wife's reaction to that ;-) But even if you were at least partially successful in that, once every user has saturated their collection as far as they can, then what?
I've no doubt that MorphOS development has reasonably low overheads (especially given the entirely electronic distribution), that the core developers all have regular work aside from working on MorphOS and that many of the developers/contributors do so as a labour of love. However, at some point, the money raised from end user registrations will die off (of course, old amiga users from many years ago might join in). Hosting / bandwidth will still have to be paid for. Replacement systems for developers will still need purchasing if/when they break down. Other, unforeseen expenses crop up all the time.
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And then?
Then what? Do you really think potential user base is drying up in near future? There are so many Amiga users who dont have MorphOS, even on this forum.
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Developers don't need to eat? Pay rent?
You just hit the nail on the head, at some point these guys better realize that they do need a day job, cos their hobby isn't even paying their stay in mummys basement ;)
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LMAO, OS4.1 update 7 was free, figure it out guys. :-D
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I've read this thread with interest. I've come to three conclusions:
1. I never want to moderate any Amiga forum ever, at any time. That job is pretty thankless. Plus I'd be awful at it.
2. As an X1000 owner I was disappointed that I'd have to pay more USD for the Final Update. It was my original understanding that I'd get all of my 4.1 updates free, as well as 4.2 when it came out. I logically assumed I was done paying for OS4 until after 4.2. I now realize I was only promised 4.2 free. With the long delay in getting 4.2, 4.1 FE was released, and I was never promised anything about that since it didn't exist, even as a concept, when I bought the X1000. So I'm ok...I don't feel any promise was broken,
3. I'm going to support AmiStore (did today for 6 purchases) and buy FE as well...to support the people that are making the X1000 a fun hobby. I love the machine, and the only alternative I have is to NOT support them, to effectively abandon the developers that have made my (computing) life a lot more fun. Hell, I'm going to buy LibreOffice too.
I'm still not sure this thread isn't FUD, but assuming it is not...I think the idea of supporting the few developers left may help keep them, or spawn new ones. That is not a bad thing.
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3. I'm going to support AmiStore (did today for 6 purchases) and buy FE as well...to support the people that are making the X1000 a fun hobby. I love the machine, and the only alternative I have is to NOT support them, to effectively abandon the developers that have made my (computing) life a lot more fun. Hell, I'm going to buy LibreOffice too.
I'm still not sure this thread isn't FUD, but assuming it is not...I think the idea of supporting the few developers left may help keep them, or spawn new ones. That is not a bad thing.
Excellent! :hammer:
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Then what? Do you really think potential user base is drying up in near future? There are so many Amiga users who dont have MorphOS, even on this forum.
I agree with Karlos that the MorphOS Dev. Team may need to charge something for future updates, if/when the sales of MorphOS licenses drops too low to sustain the operating costs to keep the MorphOS website running and pay what ever other expenses they may have, BUT, looking at the ever increasing angle on the graph of MorphOS license sales, it does not look like that will be a problem any time in the near future.
I am surprised that the number of MorphOS license sales continues to increase every month. It can't be just from existing MorphOS users buying 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th licenses for different models of supported hardware, so we must be gaining more new MorphOS users each month (in spite of the fact that there is almost zero promotion and advertizing coming from the MorphOS Dev. Team itself).
So, although I expect the number of new MorphOS license sales to eventually slow, due to saturation, as Karlos pointed out, it does not appear to be a problem for the foreseeable future.
I have no idea how many new AmigaOS4.x sales were occurring prior to the decision to sell AmigaOS4.1.7FE for 30 Euros, or if the recent advancements in UAE which provide the possibility to run AmigaOS4.x for Classic via emulation had anything to do with the decision to sell this update, but my best guess is that what ever that number was, it was insufficient to provide the needed (or desired) income to pay for a push to finish the features needed to complete AmigaOS4.2. This is all just guess work on my part though, and I have no information to confirm or refute any of my guesses (could be all just hot air).
I want progress to continue on AmigaOS4.x, so I don't mind paying for this update, even though I own an X1000, and had assumed that I would not need to pay for any updates prior to my free copy of AmigaOS4.2 being delivered (or downloaded). Some users (obviously) feel differently, and although I don't agree with their view point, I support their right to express their opinions and view points, as long as they do so in a civil manner, don't troll the forums to create negative responses, or otherwise break any of our Posting Guideline "Cardinal Rules". I take offense to some of the statements made, such as the assertion that X1000 owners will never receive their free copy of AmigaOS4.2, but instead of being angry, I find it laughable that anyone would presume to know what will happen in that regard in the future.
It is a shame that this thread has become as hostile as it has between a few members. I have tried to correct some of the instances of hostility, but as a general rule, it is not wise to moderate in the same thread that a moderator is posting his personal opinions into (I learned that one the hard way on a couple of occasions).
As I have already posted previously in this thread, if any members feel that any forum post contains a violation of the Posting Guideline "Cardinal Rules", please use the "Report Post" button, instead of perpetuating more hostility via angry responses in the forum messages. One of the other moderators will look into correcting any violations that exist. This does not have to be an angry discussion and there is room for both sides to express their thoughts and opinions, without breaking any of the site posting rules. :)
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@amigadave
So... Is the AmigaOS 4 market saturated now and Hyperion moved to charge from updates?
Like Karlos wrote:
This only strengthens the argument *for* paid for updates. Once you exhaust all the new user registrations, all you have is unpaid support forever and nothing to cover costs. That means that either the covering of costs was never an issue (in which case the registration charge itself is an unnecessary charge) or something else has to change. Which implies one of the following:
1) All major (non contribution) development ceases because costs are no longer covered.
2) Future updates become chargeable in order to cover costs.
3) You adopt a donation based strategy in order to cover costs.
4) You bite the bullet and go free and or open source because covering costs isn't actually an issue in the first place.
Karlos being an OS4 developer is giving strong hint...
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Where is this stated or documented ?
In the original announcement. You should check moo they have all the links and quotes there iirc. ;)
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In the original announcement. You should check moo they have all the links and quotes there iirc. ;)
If you have the links handy I wouldnt mind a read. Moobunny sadly got tons of spam inbetween threads with content.
itix; You probarly got much more insight into these things than me, but do Hyperion have overhead cost from lisencing in addition to hireing "freelancers"/buying devtime?
If so, there might be costs that stop them dead in their tracks if they dont generate some cashflow?
X1000 customers aside; I think the discussion regarding software/OS being free or not is a "fundemental view" one. Doubt we will ever agree on that.
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from where im standindg it looks like os4 needs a lot of funding by all kind if means, like hardware sales, apparently huge third party subvensions, outsorcing and selling os components separately and finally os sales themselves and paid updates. in comparison morphos is being financed only by selling licenses for use with particular hardware and aros is financed by bounties if by anything at all. i dont have any much up to date actual experience with any of these oses, but it doesnt look like there is quantitative difference between them. in this context i must ask myself why must os4 cost so much, if the others do not.
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Good question wawrzon, BUT cost efficiency aside, Is a total of 120-140 euro too much to ask for a OS from 2008 to almost 2015?
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Good question wawrzon, BUT cost efficiency aside, Is a total of 120-140 euro too much to ask for a OS from 2008 to almost 2015?
No, not at all.
I have bought licenses for win98, xp, vista, seven and 8. I never expected to get anything beyond 98 for free, just because that was what I initially payed for.
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Good question wawrzon, BUT cost efficiency aside, Is a total of 120-140 euro too much to ask for a OS from 2008 to almost 2015?
it is not a question of time frame the payments cover but of what has been actually done within this time. maybe im wrong, but i dont see much progress that would have to be particularly covered here. about all fatures that have been annouced as killer features or arguments for purchase have either been cancelled or postponed beyond this time frame, likely cancelled either way.
in comparison i used and still use windows xp systems. i dont count the years anymore, but this is of course not a fair comparison, so i would actially refrain from it if it wasnt brought up before.
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I linked to Hyperion's Original announcement I can see no such thing.
http://www.hyperion-entertainment.biz/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=60:announcing-amigaos-41&catid=36:amigaos-4x&Itemid=18
In the original announcement. You should check moo they have all the links and quotes there iirc. ;)
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@niding
it is not a question of time frame the payments cover but of what has been actually done within this time. maybe im wrong, but i dont see much progress that would have to be particularly covered here. about all fatures that have been annouced as killer features or arguments for purchase have either been cancelled or postponed beyond this time frame, likely cancelled either way.
in comparison i used and still use windows xp systems. i dont count the years anymore, but this is of course not a fair comparison, so i would actially refrain from it if it wasnt brought up before.
btw i dont consider the user investments you quote inadequate. in the same time, that means since ive got interested in aros i have put more than that into the different bounties. still most of them already paid off. most aros or multiplatform bounties are additional to what os4 user already needs to pay, but then they usually also deliver what was promissed. as example the 68k kickstart replacement bounty. the result is, that we have actually at least under winuae almost fully functionable amiga system replacement with additional features. plus while that en course a lot of other aspects of aros had to be improved. i think it fairly exceeds what the bounty has originally been supposed to cover.
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@takemehomegrandma
I think the problem people have with your post starting the thread, is this:
Would your reaction have been the same if it had been MorphOS that had suddenly asked for 30 Euros for next update?
- Of course, since suddenly introducing a new license fee on MorphOS 3.8 out of the blue would be the same "breach of contract" with the users as this case is; all +0.1 version bumps within a "big" MorphOS version line is free of charge. I actually expected that v3.0 would mean a new license, since it was a major upgrade, but that din't happen, my 2.0 license was still valid for 3.x upgrades.
- You really don't think (you falsly take for granted for some reason) that I have never publicly critizised the MorphOS price and pricing policy? This is utterly wrong, I have been very vocal online on this subject, especially about the (then) high price (150 Euros), that it was tied to one machine only and couldn't be transfered if I upgrade to another machine, and that there was no discount for purchase of multiple licenses. All is still there (on Morph.Zone (http://morph.zone) if you dig some).
- New users are constantly joining the MorphOS community, and with some frequence and regularity some of them will do just this, publicly raise question and express their views on MorphOS price and its pricing policy and license scheme. The discussions can go on for a couple of posts, but never, *NEVER* are they met with the kind agression and hostility as OS4 supporters (especially those who actually never have had OS4, which is a funny fact) *always* shows as soon as anything/whatever is said about OS4 that isn't pure Gospel! You don't see this in the AROS community either, or in Amiga "Classic", it's something *exclusive* for OS4. And I find it *sick* to be honest. Many are the threads about MorphOS license costs and policies on Morph.Zone, far from everyone express happy thoughts about it, but they are *never* met with this kind of hostility shown here, no abuse, there has never been a need for moderation whatsoever (I'm not even sure there are moderators on that site, that's how little you notice them), and I don't think it even has those "report buttons" that together with frontier moderation style is such an essential, core component in everything OS4 online.
I think many of us suspect that instead of that, you would have posted about how "MorphOS is now the cheapest, as well as the best OS"
This is not even a hypothesis; the cost of compatible HW + MorphOS usually is around 1/10th to 1/30 of of the price for an OS4 system that in best case is only slightly less powerful than the MorphOS one, and in worst case only delivers a fraction of the performance.
and "MorphOS is now allowing people to support their devs again after years of unpaid work!".
Karlos and Itix are discussing the saturation of the OS4 market above. OS4 has been locked into an impossible HW situation, like... Forever! And even more so the last half decade! The only few people willing to actually pay those insane price tags for those ancient performance machines only to run something like OS4, did so a long time ago already! The OS4 license model depends on a constant stream of new users. But no new users are coming! They are all here already, and if anything, some are actually leaving! So they are breaching their "deal" with the current users that the next paid update would be OS4.2, and decides to charge money once again for OS4.1 through the seventh update.
MorphOS developers on the other hand sell new licenses all the time. Their license model instead depends on a constant stream of new supported machines and HW platforms. The possible HW offerings are today just as versatile as the "super company" Apple's was for PPC, since it's essentially the same! Compact, tiny footprint Mac Mini, several big box G4 towers, many different laptop models, heavy G5, etc. Each new supported platform renders new sales of OS licenses, to existing users, but also to new users from other parts of the community (I wouldn't be surprised if there are more OS4 users that also has one or more MorphOS license, than OS4 users who still doesn't have a single one).
Look at this graph, and draw your own conclusions, since then KimmoK was very close to get the magic #2500 license (http://morph.zone/modules/newbb_plus/viewtopic.php?forum=14&topic_id=5875&post_id=114368&viewmode=flat&sortorder=0&showonepost=1), and #2534 from Debaser was reported as the highest number, but that was a while ago now:
(Edit: I shrunk the size of the image a bit, click on it for the original size)
(http://i58.tinypic.com/1gp1e1.png) (http://i.imgur.com/RCvhdQO.png)
Up to v2.3, MorphOS only supported Pegasos (1&2) and Efika. Had the MorphOS Team not decided to go for Mac PPC HW, then the graph would quickly have levelled out after the 2.3, ending up as an horizontal line very close to only #740 licenses sold, and it would forever have been stuck in a saturated market since then. Just like OS4 finds itself in now.
Luckily, the MorphOS Team went with a different strategy than the OS4 dudes... :)
So yes, "MorphOS is now allowing people to support their devs", not by asking for charity or by double-charging their already sold licenses, but by introducing a stream of new offerings that people actually finds interesting enough to buy. An owner of a Mac Mini or a big box Power Mac can easily become interested in a laptop offering as well!
:)
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Decent post mama.
The discussion about choice of hardware is a very valid one. But AOS made its path choice, and Ive several times commented that the options in that direction is a bit too steep.
SAM systems are okish, but sadly not very upgradable.
So I dont think you will find many that wont agree with you they wish the hardware options where more economical.
With that said, the options have been very visible for a long time and Its up to each and everyone to decide if its worth it to him/her.
With the baseline decided hardwarewise, I personally make my comment from the point of view that how well are x company/person doing within the given framework.
Amigakit and Pascal with their shopfront is one good step.
Aeon and the radeon driver is another.
Do I think its fair to hold the developmentpace and feature standard of Microsoft/windows as a comparison to Hyperion/AOS? Nope, because then you would do nothing but find flaws and complains. Then both AROS and MophOS, based on what Ive read, falls flat on its face too.
Do I feel the urge to constantly compare them with massproduction market? Nope, I adjust my expectations according to reality based on resources.
Basically I, for one, accept the choice of hardware that has been made, and try to find the positive from THAT perspective. Only seeing the negative does not help.
Anyhow, the different points of view seems so entrenched, I dont see much point posting futher on the topic.
@wawrzon,
My baseline when it comes to whats reasonable featureprogress is different for NG "amiga" platforms as you can see compared to MAINstream OSs. Its all about realising the resorces available.
If you insist on using Microsoft as the baseline, the relativly few developers on our platforms would never be entitled to ask for a return on their effort. Including all the bounties.
Some think that is a fair way of evaluating, while others (like me) think ok to ask for a bit in return once in while.
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My baseline when it comes to whats reasonable featureprogress is different for NG "amiga" platforms as you can see compared to MAINstream OSs. Its all about realising the resorces available.
If you insist on using Microsoft as the baseline, the relativly few developers on our platforms would never be entitled to ask for a return on their effort. Including all the bounties.
Some think that is a fair way of evaluating, while others (like me) think ok to ask for a bit in return once in while.
reread my post. im not insisting on using ms as reference. i have mentioned it pretty clearly i think. im comparing the amigalike oses what concerns return/investments vs progress&features and the result of this comparison is i think pretty clear.
what i also i consider a very important pont is transparency. i want to know what im investing into and what i support. additionally i like the possibility to fund particular aspects of development i consider important and interesting to me. this all is given and guaranteed with aros option as default. with os4, if not absolutely impossible it is not wanted. it is like stuffing huge amounts money into a black box. maybe something comes out on the other end, maybe not. the outcome is uncertain and from past experience we know usually very little of whats been advertised up front to secure users interest and investements gets actually achieved. sorry, but i find this business model unsatisfactory and not trustworthy.
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reread my post. im not insisting on using ms as reference. i have mentioned it pretty clearly i think. im comparing the amigalike oses what concerns return/investments vs progress&features and the result of this comparison is i think pretty clear.
what i also i consider a very important pont is transparency. i want to know what im investing into and what i support. additionally i like the possibility to fund particular aspects of development i consider important and interesting to me. this all is given and guaranteed with aros option as default. with os4, if not absolutely impossible it is not wanted. it is like stuffing huge amounts money into a black box. maybe something comes out on the other end, maybe not. the outcome is uncertain and from past experience we know usually very little of whats been advertised up front to secure users interest and investements gets actually achieved. sorry, but i find this business model unsatisfactory and not trustworthy.
Well, Im no developer, but Ive seen comments about problems taking longer than expected which affects the features developed within x amount of time=missing expected deadlines.
As far as "throwing huge money into a black box"; huge money is debatable, but its all relative.
Imho you have to a certain extent leave sanity at the door when joining a small community like this, with all platforms. I dont think im far off the mark if a outsider came in and watched our discussions and he thought we where arguing about "Who are the LEAST insane".
If you want to impose the money vs performance vs timespent ratio too closely on ANY of our platforms, then it makes no sense to do anything but use Linux, Windows or IOS.
Windows; plug and play for pretty much every hardware option out there, why look futher?
And for the developers its complete insanity to spend so much time and effort for so little gratitude generally displayed.
I think the answer is; people enjoy the challenge, the fact that its different (better suited to your needs) or nostalgica. For some its a pure hobby, while some tryin to make a living out of it. But flagging common sense regarding AOS, AROS or MorphOS is frankly silly ;)
(Please take that in the most friendly manner you can, cause Im still upgrading my A1200).
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Well, Im no developer, but Ive seen comments about problems taking longer than expected which affects the features developed within x amount of time=missing expected deadlines.
as mentioned countless times there are many repeated examples of what has been advertised, reported close to release, then the public left with no update on the subject or further months and years till eventually someonle mentions it and then it is again being reported as close to release. what if not that should be called "vaporware"? the list is long and includes many features that are available on alternative and less extensively founded platforms, just to name gallium, warp3d, smp, particular device drivers, browsers and other productivity software..
As far as "throwing huge money into a black box"; huge money is debatable, but its all relative.
i think that most would agree that paying multiple thousand just for the hardware to run the system is already huge meoney. then paying te os. paying the neccessary device drivers it does not include. buying all sorts of merchandise and eye candy and then contributiung to the bounties and supporting the developers may resule in even more money.
Imho you have to a certain extent leave sanity at the door when joining a small community like this, with all platforms.
no. you dont. i consider myself reasonable and have never invested in anything amiga i would call insane with one single exception, when i bought a system along with a ppc accelerator. everything else was rather a good value for money. even the relaively pricey deneb card. i have used all that in my work and i i continue to enjoy it till now, which i wouldnt if i was pressed to throw in money i need otherwise. im certain, many feel alike.
And for the developers its complete insanity to spend so much time and effort for so little gratitude generally displayed.
nothing wrong with displaying gratitude. but are the aros developers worth less gratitude? i dont understand why what applies to few does not apply to others.
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as mentioned countless times there are many repeated examples of what has been advertised, reported close to release, then the public left with no update on the subject or further months and years till eventually someonle mentions it and then it is again being reported as close to release. what if not that should be called "vaporware"? the list is long and includes many features that are available on alternative and less extensively founded platforms, just to name gallium, warp3d, smp, particular device drivers, browsers and other productivity software..
i think that most would agree that paying multiple thousand just for the hardware to run the system is already huge meoney. then paying te os. paying the neccessary device drivers it does not include. buying all sorts of merchandise and eye candy and then contributiung to the bounties and supporting the developers may resule in even more money.
no. you dont. i consider myself reasonable and have never invested in anything amiga i would call insane with one single exception, when i bought a system along with a ppc accelerator. everything else was rather a good value for money. even the relaively pricey deneb card. i have used all that in my work and i i continue to enjoy it till now, which i wouldnt if i was pressed to throw in money i need otherwise. im certain, many feel alike.
nothing wrong with displaying gratitude. but are the aros developers worth less gratitude? i dont understand why what applies to few does not apply to others.
YOU consider yourself reasonable (and im sure you are), but since everything in these threads are relative to this and that with regards to performance and cost, for a outsider of this "community", you scale might be a bit off.
And just cause person A doesnt want a monetary return for his effort, doesnt stop person B to feel/be eintitled do so. Its Kinda like in the airline industry; tons of aspiring pilots running down the Airlines doors PAYING for simulator training and checks, putting it into a underbidding of working condictions. Recognisable pattern and users have the goal of "free tickets".
The comparison is a stretch, but I sure see similarities.
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Of course, it's still up to the user if they want to spend their money. Choice is a wonderful thing. I'd honestly happily buy FE if I could be sure that if after that, if I bought 4.2 that I wouldn't be needing to pay another 30E for every 4.2 Update. I spend more on coffee and meals at work per day than what FE costs, so it's not a matter of cost. The cost is more than reasonable as long as every little update in the future isn't a pay for deal.
But it's still an in line, in rev. update. I'm still being asked to pay 30 euros for an update to 4.1, an operating system that I already paid well over 100 euros for in the first place. I'd be just as annoyed if MS was charging for in-line, in rev. updates (aka Service Packs). This being said, it's one heck of a bargain for people entering the ecosystem, but I fear the future of all this and I am sincerely debating getting out of the OS4 game entirely, as in selling my OS4 machines outright. That really annoys me in itself, since I'm finally developing for the platform and I'm having great fun with it :/ Of course, it's my option entirely
What I fear is I'd pay 30e for FE, then: 4.2 comes out and I'd need to spend another 100e or better on it (which is nearly twice what I paid for OEM Windows quite recently, btw) - then perhaps OS 4.2 Update 1 comes out and I'd be expected to pay another 30 euros for 4.2 Update 1, then another 30 E for 4.2 U2, another 30E for 4.2 Update 3, so on and so forth.
I fear getting milked out of my hard earned cash like I'm a stolen goat every single minuscule update.
I don't have a particular problem with their pricing policy, however I think it could be a bit more coherent. I agree with the above.
OS4.1fe should have been named 4.1.7 or even 4.2. That way psychologically you're not paying for an update to something you already own (and have been getting free updates to), but are buying a new version of the OS.
Anything previously announced for OS4.2 could be pushed back to OS4.3, and as a goodwill gesture the people entitled to a free OS4.2 would also get some discount off OS4.3 - or the features promised for OS4.2 could be added later as free updates.
That's how I would have handled it anyway, none of this "final edition" bollocks.
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@thread
PS: AmigaOS4.1 Final Edition is AKA OS4.1 Update 8, not Update 7 ;) 'cause that's already out on X1000...
Just a quick note :)
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@Chris
You forget that AmigaOS 4.2 has some contractual obligations for X1000 owners on the part of A-eon .
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YOU consider yourself reasonable (and im sure you are), but since everything in these threads are relative to this and that with regards to performance and cost, for a outsider of this "community", you scale might be a bit off.
If we consider use only 68k software, after year 2000 the fastest Amiga 68k is uae with jit on pc.
Uae with jit on pc has also the best price / performance ratio.
Using anything else to run only 68k software is stupid, and wawa should scrap his slow amiga, and should use uae with jit.
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@chris
im not sure if you proposal to release 4.1 fe as 4.2, push the updates back to 4.3 and grant the users promised 4.2 for free a discount on what they have been promised wouldnt in fact put off even more people.
however you seem to be correct, that things seems to be decided without an actual comprehensible and logical plan, but rather based as nervous attempts of damage control
4.1fe has been announced as a stop gap solution this summer, obviously in awareness that 4.2 isnt going to be ready any soon, yet something needs to be announced on amiwest in order to prevent customers dissatisfaction. it looks like it was genuinely planned as a paid update, not a paid full release. in the leaked amiga-future article it looks like its cost is being defended in anticipation of expected wave of criticism and also the development team lead at amiwest seems not to have been updated on the new pricing strategy till the very last moment and therefore spreading outdated and inaccurate information. it really looks like the unfavorable reaction of the public was the immediate cause to offer what likely was planned a paid update as a full release. the already officially announced price could not be corrected, to adjust the return, but newly avaliable ppc emulation could be expected to compensate it at least partly with the higher expected sells. so at least a disaster could have been avoided.
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If we consider use only 68k software, after year 2000 the fastest Amiga 68k is uae with jit on pc.
Uae with jit on pc has also the best price / performance ratio.
Using anything else to run only 68k software is stupid, and wawa should scrap his slow amiga, and should use uae with jit.
i am using uae as well if need be. everything depends on what im particularly up to. usually real hardware along with an emulation is a good tandem to push things a little further.
as for scrapping my amigas, i dont feel like it, sorry. and i dont think i need to explain myself to anyone as to why. on the contrary, a request to distroy amiga hardware sounds for me rather uncalled for on an amiga forum.
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"unfavorable reaction of the public"
Seems like the reaction is all over the scale, from positive to negative.
All depending on what realistic expectations you had. How you read into articles and presentations depends on your mindset when you read/hear it.
But that is hardly a suprise. What looks like "damage control" to some, is "pragmatic move" to others.
And the list is long.
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"unfavorable reaction of the public"
Seems like the reaction is all over the scale, from positive to negative.
All depending on what realistic expectations you had. How you read into articles and presentations depends on your mindset when you read/hear it.
But that is hardly a suprise. What looks like "damage control" to some, is "pragmatic move" to others.
And the list is long.
im speaking about the initial reactions based on assumptions, that 4.1fe will be a paid _update_.
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@Chris
You forget that AmigaOS 4.2 has some contractual obligations for X1000 owners on the part of A-eon .
Which I guess is why they aren't calling it 4.2, but that doesn't stop them calling it 4.1.7, 4.1.1 or whatever.
They really shouldn't have promised things for 4.2 when 4.1 had already been out for a number of years, and the things being promised weren't trivial.
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im speaking about the initial reactions based on assumptions, that 4.1fe will be a paid _update_.
Calling it "OS4.1 Final Edition" makes it look like a paid update.
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Which I guess is why they aren't calling it 4.2, but that doesn't stop them calling it 4.1.7, 4.1.1 or whatever.
exactly.
They really shouldn't have promised things for 4.2 when 4.1 had already been out for a number of years, and the things being promised weren't trivial.
but the reason to promise these things in first place must have been exactly, that the were not trivial, otherwise they would not have any much result on the audience. the mistake is to treat these as actual technical goals, while it seems that instead they are simply publicity arguments. deployed somewhere of far horizont and moving with it they are even more effective publicity than if they were actually ever achieved, because then you would have to create another decoy.
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This is not even a hypothesis; the cost of compatible HW + MorphOS usually is around 1/10th to 1/30 of of the price for an OS4 system that in best case is only slightly less powerful than the MorphOS one, and in worst case only delivers a fraction of the performance.
OS4 hardware is more expensive yup. It's also brand new as opposed to secondhand,
Ok my X1000 cost me about £2100 and given that it is the most expensive OS4 option I assume that's where you're getting your 30x figure. So are you saying that I could get a MorphOS computer for £70? Given that a license works out to be about £90, I assume that you know someone that would give me a computer to run it on *AND* £20? They're very generous, I'd love to meet them :-)
As for performance, can you show me your comparable benchmarks from an X1000 and your secondhand mac which you based your claims on? I'd be surprised if my PCI-X graphics card is less powerful for instance.
I await your figures with baited breath.
Karlos and Itix are discussing the saturation of the OS4 market above. OS4 has been locked into an impossible HW situation, like... Forever! And even more so the last half decade! The only few people willing to actually pay those insane price tags for those ancient performance machines only to run something like OS4, did so a long time ago already! The OS4 license model depends on a constant stream of new users. But no new users are coming! They are all here already, and if anything, some are actually leaving! So they are breaching their "deal" with the current users that the next paid update would be OS4.2, and decides to charge money once again for OS4.1 through the seventh update.
Oh dear, mr logic has left the building again! :-)
So you're saying that your privy to OS4 sales figures, yup? Hyperion & co have let you into their inner sanctum? I also didn't realise that everytime someone stopped using OS4 that they called you directly. I'll bear it mind if I ever depart the scene, my duty to give you a call and let you know.
Are you sure that this tribute to a famous part of Father Ted somes up your rigourous research techniques?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-1ZOlISF5DnE/UyqnxwedU8I/AAAAAAAAHyY/2zbLayo85Ao/s1600/father+ted+dreams+reality.gif
:-)
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but the reason to promise these things in first place must have been exactly, that the were not trivial, otherwise they would not have any much result on the audience. the mistake is to treat these as actual technical goals, while it seems that instead they are simply publicity arguments. deployed somewhere of far horizont and moving with it they are even more effective publicity than if they were actually ever achieved, because then you would have to create another decoy.
Even more reason to promise them for OS5.0 to give a lot of breathing room. Nobody cares if OS5.0 comes after OS4.1 or if we go all the way up to OS4.9 first.
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Why? Why argue with TMHGM, his purpose was so obvious?
Amiga OS4 has original Amiga OS4 feeling and touch, in good and bad ways, it is all that matter to me.
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Even more reason to promise them for OS5.0 to give a lot of breathing room. Nobody cares if OS5.0 comes after OS4.1 or if we go all the way up to OS4.9 first.
wanna put up with that:
http://downloadsquad.switched.com/2007/10/07/amiga-os5-to-be-better-than-mac-os-x/
;P?
seriously, given that bad karma, even then it is no go, since its too distant already. you need somethimg that seems within reach and then just leaks through your fingers without you knowing whom to blame if not yourself.
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wanna put up with that:
http://downloadsquad.switched.com/2007/10/07/amiga-os5-to-be-better-than-mac-os-x/
;P?
seriously, given that bad karma, even then it is no go, since its too distant already. you need somethimg that seems within reach and then just leaks through your fingers without you knowing whom to blame if not yourself.
Man, with all the drive-by posting going on in this thread somebody needs to invent a digital version of stop-sticks!
Is there any end to the semantic diatribe by the usual flame baiting suspects? Huffington Tech!? HA! Is Ariana Huffpoof where you learn your screed of deceit? No wonder I couldn't make heads or tails of the harangue in this thread! How's that for mincing words! :lol: BTW, this is not a challenge... even I know that a liberal always has the last word. Hmmm, I think there will be some irony to follow.
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@amigadave
So... Is the AmigaOS 4 market saturated now and Hyperion moved to charge from updates?
Like Karlos wrote:
Karlos being an OS4 developer is giving strong hint...
I have no idea what the market sales are like for AmigaOS4.x or MorphOS3.7.
If someone had not noticed the numbering system on the invoices sent out for MorphOS, we probably would not have any idea about how many MorphOS licenses had been sold (not users, just individual computer keys for MorphOS).
If Hyperion wanted to make the most money from selling AmigaOS4.x, they could have just left the price where it was, so any new users who wanted to try out AmigaOS4.x for Classic hardware via UAE emulation would have had to pay the higher price.
Perhaps (just a guess), this paid stand alone version of AmigaOS4.1FE was created to cater to users wanting to try AmigaOS4.x via UAE emulation, and the low price of only 30 Euros was set to encourage higher sales to these new users trying it out via UAE.
None of that matters to me. The developers of AmigaOS4.x are trying to do things that weren't even being discussed on other NG Amiga platforms until recently, AFAIR. Adding some of the features that they want to add is a hugely difficult and complicated project (so much so that many other people have said it can't be done, so they won't even try). Since I decided to invest in an AmigaOS4.x compatible system, I am willing to help fund further progress on the development of AmigaOS4.x. Simple as that.
All the rest is just noise to me, and there appear to be many AmigaOS4.x users who feel the same. What is unfortunate, is that too many AmigaOS4.x users take the bait when users who do not support AmigaOS4.x developers write negative comments about any part of the AmigaOS4.x world. I understand their frustration when they read repeated attacks on their choices, or when they see inaccurate information distributed, which usually ends up in long drawn out endless unproductive debates (like this one).
The relevant facts of this particular argument are very few and have already been expressed dozens of times in this thread alone, but yet the endless debate continues with opposing opinions continuing to prove some kind of point or other and generally discredit anyone who opposes their opinions. It is all so childish and yet I know most members here are over 30, if not over 50 years of age, like me.
I know that more moderating needs to be done in this thread, as some nasty stuff keeps creeping into comments, but I am too exhausted to even think about it right now. Maybe tomorrow I will try to sort some of it out and ask other moderators to act on the worst of it.
Why are so many of you still posting jabs at each other in this thread?
What difference does it make if one group needs money to pay full time developers, while another group gets the same, more, or less work accomplished with an all volunteer work force?
It doesn't make one right and the other wrong, it really doesn't!
Edit: I used to wonder why anyone would want to use any NG Amiga system other than MorphOS, but now I understand that they are three completely different things that happen to share a common history, or origination point that is the Commodore Amiga. As more time goes by, all NG Amiga systems grow further apart, even when they copy small parts or features from one another (such as the few cooperating parts between AROS and MorphOS). I enjoy ALL the different choices that are related to my original interest and love of my first Amiga A1000.
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wanna put up with that:
http://downloadsquad.switched.com/2007/10/07/amiga-os5-to-be-better-than-mac-os-x/
;P?
Ha, AmigaOS has always been far better than MacOS.
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I think the complaint is more about having bought 4.1 and never using it, rather than paying for an update. But secondly there is also a fine line between supporting a purchasing customer base and gouging them. Generally purchase of a version gives you a level of support lifecycle that covers intra dot releases. But truly the product lifecycle seems to get shorter and shorter these days.
Throw away consuming ideology. Off topic but there would be more jobs and better sustainably if we fixed things. Ranting again.
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I think the complaint is more about having bought 4.1 and never using it, rather than paying for an update.
I must admit that I do fall into this category now, I did buy OS4.1 in 2008 and 4.0 before that, but I got a fair few years of use out of them and don't begrudge paying the price. The only reason I stopped using OS4 was down to hardware failure, not a fault of the OS itself.
I still keep an eye on what happens with OS4 though and there are some interesting developments, I will likely buy a copy of FE Classic to try on UAE at least (or if I can find the time and motivation to try and get my A1XE running again).
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Well, there are different approaches to how things are "called out".
Dan Wood and Epsilon covers all things Amiga, and Dan has said on several occations that he thinks MorphOS is better atm than AOS. Tbh, from what Ive seen I find it hard to argue with him on that point.
But he does so in a coherent, collected, systematic and sometimes even funny manner. Not coming off like a frothing ranter.
I dont see any reason to belittle other peoples choice of platform, nor the developers for them..
Well said Niding, if anything it's a miracle that the platforms are still here and being developed 20 years after Commodore's demise.
I find them all interesting, and the Classic edition of 4.1 FE will give those who are curious an easy way to try it out at last for a cheap price. Icaros 2.0 looks very impressive, I'll be trying that out soon, MorphOS continues to develop at an impressive pace and there's still some really cool hardware being made/in the pipeline for classics - it's a really good and exciting time to be an "Amigan"!
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This thread is funny. It's like watching people argue which custom made sports car is the best for go grocery shopping.
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This thread is funny. It's like watching people argue which custom made sports car is the best for go grocery shopping.
I know its stupid. I can see how it all started.
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Basically I, for one, accept the choice of hardware that has been made, and try to find the positive from THAT perspective.
What's positive about the chosen HW path? :confused:
The price for a X1000 system is higher than a massive *Power8* system from Tyan, while it's beaten by a decade old G4 laptop in most CPU intensive benchmarks that has been made public. Sam460 is slower than a 2004 Pegasos2 and a system will land at about a thousand Euros. The "X5000" coming in 2015/2016(?) is basically a 64-bit beefed up "G3" and will probably all in all be more of a side-way move than a move forward compared to the X1000, and IIRC it will *not* be considerably cheaper.
Meanwhile, the world has moved on to 2014. X86 is today several computer ages ahead from what is being discussed here. *Dimensions* apart, at the fraction or the cost!
Heck, even ARM is way ahead. Last year Apple released their first products based on their custom ARM architecture "Cyclone", developed completely in-house (ironically probably by CPU architects from PA-Semi/PA6T such as Jim Keller), which is actually *wider than Haswell* (image (http://s12.postimg.org/7v8px55lp/Cyclone_Vs_Haswell.png)) based CPU's from Intel, such as Core i3/i5/i7. The Cyclone was actually a desktop class architecture, in a mobile CPU package. This year (2014) they released products based upon the *second* version of "Cyclone" (name of this architecture is AFAIK still unknown), and an iPhone 6 produces a spec int value just shy of a 2.5 GHz *G5* CPU. This should put things into perspective! Passively cooled, powered by a tiny pocket battery.
Remember AMD, the Intel competitor, those who bought ATI (Radeon)? In May this year (2014) they publicly demonstrated their first "Opteron A" series of ARM SoC chips (4-8 64-bit Cortex A57 cores, 8 x SATA3, 2 x PCIe 3 x4 slots (or 1 x x8), Up to 128GB DDR3/4 RAM). In 2015, AMD will be releasing their "Skybridge" line of CPU's, which will be the first pin compatible x86 and ARM (Cortex A-57 based) CPU's. In 2016 they will release *their* custom Desktop Class ARM CPU, the "K12" (development lead by Jim Keller).
During the last couple of years there has been many interesting HW solutions based upon Cortex-A8, Cortex-A9, Cortex-A15, and now the 64-bit Cortex-A57 is rolling out. We are talking *extremely* cheap but still very potent HW, the *perfect* hobby machines. And not to mention the x86 desktop/laptops!
So again, please tell me, what are the "positive things" you focus on regarding the OS4 HW path, really?
:confused:
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So again, please tell me, what are the "positive things" you focus on regarding the OS4 HW path, really?
The fact that there is one? You should keep in mind that Trevor makes these motherboards solely to run AmigaOS 4 on them. It's not some sideline business of his: it's literary the sole reason he does it. It's not cost effective for sure, but hell, even I understand that that kind of love got to count for something!
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The fact that there is one? You should keep in mind that Trevor makes these motherboards solely to run AmigaOS 4 on them. It's not some sideline business of his: it's literary the sole reason he does it. It's not cost effective for sure, but hell, even I understand that that kind of love got to count for something!
Pretty much what Yasu said. Wether or not its "cost effective" or the "natural choice" is a moot point. The path has been set, and I decide to take the positives instead of nagging about something I have absolutly NO influence on.
That doesnt mean Im overly positive per see; giving constructive critizism about things that we can affect; like software development, bug reporting, features lacking or just plain broken; the list is rather long in that regard. I rather focus the time I spend on these forums to be just a little bit contructive.
Adding negativity to something I cant control Is just silly.
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So again, please tell me, what are the "positive things" you focus on regarding the OS4 HW path, really?
It is simple.
New Amigas are big endian hardware.
And because new Amigas are big endian, it is easy to integrate new code with existing 68k software.