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Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: TeamBlackFox on November 01, 2014, 04:44:00 PM
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What OS besides the main OS options for Amiga do you use? Please answer the poll and post here about it.
I use two OSes outside of AmigaOS on a daily basis: the various BSDs and IRIX.
I admire BSD as opposed to OS X or Windows, or even GNU/Linux because like the original AmigaOS, they provide you with a well-tested, minimalist OS that you can expand how you want. BSD has three added advantages over GNU/Linux, including:
Better filesystems (ZFS is supported on Free and NetBSD)
Open licence scheme
More conservative and stable
I don't care that X11 has shortcomings compared to other display servers, because I use the bare minimum of graphical programs to run the system, and because of that I rarely experience crashes or problems because of it. Some users find the overwhelming configurability and command-line oriented control to be terrible, but I have used all other major operating systems as daily drivers and most of them have their own issues.
I used to use OS X but since 10.5 their quality control has given way on the desktop as they focus more and more on the mobile segment, plus I'm against the use of Mach as its performance is slower than a BSD-style monolithic kernel or the Amiga kernels on equivalent hardware, and it has become increasingly *unstable* with every subsequent release, requiring more and more hacks to run as I need it.
I also use IRIX for a lot of things because IRIX solved a lot of the problems with the 'UNIX Workstation' problem. While some may argue that the Motif toolkit is ugly, it looks quite similar to OS 3.1 to me, so it is the pot calling the kettle black. The lack of development for IRIX hasn't barred countless ports of various utilities and somewhat updated web browsers, plus XSGI is probably the best iteration of X11 around, with many of the problems that still plague X.Org fixed.
Windows is still used occasionally, mostly Windows 7, but only in cases of absolute need.
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Android.
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Windows, out of sheer convinience.
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i am use ing raspberry pi for now useing emac
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Windows at work for Delphi and php development.
Windows at home, because besides programming I am also a gamer.
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Using a non mainstream OS as main system I prefer a very mainstream addition. The Windows computer is required rarely only, but then it should work (meaning: do the stuff that isn't working on MorphOS).
I also use OS X from time to time, but - cough - I prefer Windows over OS X (I know it better than OS X and think with average knowledge Windows offers more flexibility than OS X where everything is pretty nice and working as long as you do the things as intended (dictated!), but if you want to leave that path it gets adventurous).
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@TeamBlackFox
i use opensuse on my x64 kit at home and suse enterprise linux for system z at work. and i use suse because it's awesome. ;)
-- eliyahu
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I mainly (try to) use Debian testing at work and home. Its buggy, each new update fixes and breaks things, but I've learned to put up with it.
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Windows 7
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Windows XP (bought my peecee without an OS to save money, and simply installed XP on it).
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For me, it'd be a close race between Debian Linux and Solaris (2.6 - 10), with Linux being used that much more.
I use mostly Sparc/UltraSparc-based machines of varying vintage, used mostly for learning and research purposes. My next goal is to fix my A2000 and use it as an Xterminal under Amiwin (for no reason other than "because I can", practicality be damned).
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Windows mainly, mix of Win 8.1 and Win 7. Dual boot Kali Linux and Windows 10 on my laptop. Linux on a few boxes in my rack.
FreeNAS (Debian based) on my NAS box.
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FreeNAS is based on FreeBSD.
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I use MacOSX 10.6 Snow Leopard as my main system and Debian Linux as a development platform under VirtualBox. I also have Haiku on a laptop but I never use it so I didn't include it in the poll.
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Non Amiga home use is split between windows and centos linux.
Years ago I used slackware, but just don't have time to tinker these days.
For work I use about an equal amount of AIX, centos and windows.
Plaz
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I'm using 32bit Windows Vista on Quad Core PC with 3GB RAM.
I'm not sure who said that Vista is a horrible OS, but for me it works fine. The PC is ON for 24/7 365 days, no OS crashes (mostly Firefox, that memory hogger and flash)
I also have MAC OSX 10.5.8 on kids MAC MINI, I let kids use OSX because it's harder to mess things up then on Windows PC.
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i use suse because it's awesome. ;)
We just retired our only two suse servers this year. (enterprise 10.3)
I give props to novell for being a good care taker over the years. Now it's all grown up.
Plaz
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Windows. I use it for work, so having it at home is a must. Plus it is great for gaming.
Also, I've never had to do a restore on a Windows 7 or 8.1 machine (with Classic Shell). Even XP was a painless experience. It does everything I need it to and it is familiar and very easy to use.
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I'm not sure who said that Vista is a horrible OS
Lumbering might be a better way I'd describe it. After a few weeks of slower performance than I could bear on a new laptop and desktop where it came pre-installed, I downgraded both to XPsp3 which supported all the same apps and ran much spunkier.
Fast-forward a few years with Window7 installed on the same machines, and 7 seemed to achieve nicely what Vista had attempted.
Plaz
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At work, the entire company recently converted from Windows XP Professional to Windows 7. Sadly, many of the applications I use every day actually run slower on Windows 7.
At home, AmigaOS4, iPad and Samsung GALAXY Tab4
iPad and Samsung Tab4 for convenience. Can be used anywhere at home.
Also have some Windows computers which my wife and son use but I rarely use anymore.
---
redfox
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Vista was a real pain when it first came out. It was bloated, buggy and slow.
My son's machine came with Vista and I ended up putting XP on it. After he managed to mangle his files up to a point where I wasn't going to waste time working out what he had done, I used the restore disks to format the hard drive and put Vista back on it. Then I download all of the updates that had come out over the years and discovered that the performance was more or less what I got with Windows 7 (although 7 was still more friendly with older software).
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I've never had to do a restore on a Windows 7 or 8.1 machine
Here's an Amiga inspired fun-fact... The data on my current XPsp3 box began in 1994 as windows 3.1 on a 40meg harddrive (meg not gig). I have copied that data to bigger and bigger drives over the years, upgrading motherboards, upgrading windows, but never doing a clean install. 3.1>3.11>95>98SE>XP to the current XP3. My main workstation for years, the kids now use it as their main steam game box. Looks like I'm finally stopped at XP3 though as there isn't a code upgrade path to win 7. Maybe I'll see if I can go vista first to win 7.
As I upgraded hardware in my Amigas over the years it was never necessary to do clean installs to update the OS. I just copied the existing drive to a new bigger drives. My Amiga drives today started out as a copy of the 1.3 install on a 20meg HD from my A500 in 1989. I always took it as a challenge to make windows take the same route.
P.S. Amiga all at 3.9 now.
Plaz
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Luckily, I don't have to use Windows at work nowadays and I no longer give a toss about helping others with their Windows problems either, so it's less VMs for me to maintain on my Mac OSX and Linux systems.
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Vista Business on main workhorse PC, Win 7 on laptop. I've only known Vista since SP1 and other than the hard drive usage being higher, Vista perfoms more or less like Win 7.
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I still use an A1200 with 3.9. It's down for now till I can get the hard drive replaced.
I still consider it and MorphOS my main OS though.
I will even be adding MorphOS to the Dual G5 Power Mac my brother gave me, as a dualboot system when I can afford it. Apple seems just close enough to Amiga to be confusing :P
(My brother is still kicking himself for giving me this when swithing to an Intel Power Mac. >:) )
To my shame, I have a Monster of a Winblows 7 Pro system. It plays games and does some of my net browsing, but I won't trust it for e-mail or many other things for that matter.
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Oh I have many machines for different uses so got most of em, all from NG Morphos, AmigaOS4.x and classic Amiga OS/Workbench to ReactOS to Slackware to Opensolaris to all Windows versions from 3.1 up to 8 (have machines with era correct hardware for retro gaming since I like playing on real compatible hardware instead of vmware but use vmware also to check if my rips/copy protection cracking is working when I do copies of my Floppies/CD's to store em and upload them to a retro torrent community where I seed many TB a month), newer Windows OS'es are used for modern games and aplications that won't run under Linux.
On top of all that I got a big server that I am using for virtualization (EXSi), all from my webserver to ZFS backup.
And of cource I am running a machine with FreeBSD and pfSense connected to a 24 port HP gagbit switch to take care of my home network. Since my main server has a lot of capacity left I'm thinking of moving pfSense over there, tho the disadvantage of that is that the network will be vurnable for the exploits found in the virtualization software until patched, but no real big deal.
So got a wide spectrum and everything has it's use :)
Of all common OS'es I do not have OSX, got a PPC Mac Mini bud had no real use of OSX so din't install dual OS'es so only got MorphOS on it.
Have a good amounts of experimental OS'es also like ReactOS, mainly because it's fun :)
I got a Machine with Windows XP and Windows 98 also just because of eprom burners/programmers and other old/legacy hardware that won't work on new 64-bit OS'es.
Also have a huge Torrent machine used to seed tons of torrents (huge sets for all retro systems). Because of the I/O bugs in uTorrent I need to run multiple clients to be able to seed the Huge amount of torrents I have, as soon as I have a few TB of data in a single client the entire client starts to queue up until it stops all activity so need multiple clients, thinking of giving the uTorrent Server version for x64 Debian a go when I feel I have the time to move 20TB+ data and recheck on a new system...
As usual way to much text when I start typing haha...
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I'm using CentOS. I refer to it as just Linux though, I consider GNU just a part of the whole Linux distro but also x.org etc. I'm a happy Linux user with being a follower of the FSF Church.
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I use Mac OS X, and Windows to play a couple of games. Windows is really good for playing games.
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Linux for everyday stuff / work.
Windows for playing a few games. Although, since Steam arrived on Linux...
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Windows 7, because I use it for work every day, I've got all the development tools I could ever need, everything just works and is easily available.
People give Windows a lot of crap, but I haven't had a serious issue with it since about Windows 2000. It's pretty solid, if not sexy.
I've got at least one machine with pretty much any given OS, AOS3, Haiku, NetBSD, Linux, MorphOS, OSX, Amithlon (I call it an OS), you name it. Only cost is preventing an OS4 machine (hint, hint)
I like to keep my options open and love just trying new OSs.
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Eh, Windows is fine, if the following apply to you:
You're a GUI-oriented user
You care about how pretty your stuff looks
You play many games on your computer
None of the above apply to me. I stopped using GUI-based menus and configurations when I learned how much time I was wasting ( I am a faster typer than using a mouse ) and I care for functionality and speed rather than looks. Finally, I simply don't play many Windows exclusive games. I do play the Elder Scrolls on my Windows installation, as well as PSO Blue Burst and Touhou. Those simply aren't enough for me to run Windows on a daily basis.
In addition I found Windows impossible to program for compared to UNIX, as the latter has a set of well-defined extensions to C that I can count on being part of the OS and not changing with each ABI/API release. This is a problem that Windows has, as Touhou 6, for example, won't run on the latest version of Windows, Windows 8, without a compatibility mode change to Windows XP SP3. While I'm familiar enough with how to do this, many Windows users don't even know what most of the definitions of the properties menus are for. On BSD, I can do many of the same things the properties menu does with a simple command change, rather than navigate, select, apply, ok. Example: Permissions on BSD:
% chmod 755 foo.tar.bz
Windows: Right click on foo, Click Properties, Security, Select Permissions, Apply, OK.
There was someone who called FreeNAS Debian based, that is incorrect, it is 100% FreeBSD and is funded by iXSystems, also the major fund source for PC-BSD, one of the most advanced desktop-oriented operating systems currently around. In fact, when one of the developers for FreeNAS wanted to make it Debian-based, he was kicked out of the project because his reasoning behind it was flawed.
OS X is a piece of work - it is Mach trying to masquerade as UNIX with the help of a few 4.4BSD-derived kernel enhancements and a brain damaged fork of the FreeBSD userland, with a custom GUI layered over the same thing. Problem is, there are significantly more compatibility issues with Mac OS between versions than even Windows: Mac OS Classic applications won't run since 10.4, PowerPC OS X applications won't run since 10.6. That isn't a problem for me, as I admire their willingness to break compatibility, as it is a waste of libraries, code and processor die-space for the latest version of 32-bit Windows to be able to run basic 16-bit DOS applications. I digress, because I've already harped on why I don't use OS X.
Finally I see Fats referring to the GNU/Linux as 'Linux' but this is incorrect, as Linux is just the kernel, and there are versions such as Alpine Linux which use a minimum of GNU software such as uClibc, etc. I use GNU/Linux to denote the differences between those, and non-GNU variants like Android and Alpine. I use Android, but I didn't really include it here as using a mobile based OS for a main OS seems pretty impractical. Again, as a Randian believer in philosophy, I disagree with the approach of the FSF/GPL/GNU project to licencing, as it stifles innovation and encourages monopoly and domination. Red Hat dominates the GNU/Linux cathedral what with its constant meddling, and as I've worked with them before, I don't have any desire to be part of the parade for which they're the drum majors.
Note I'm not criticising people here, but merely explaining my rationale for not using those.
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Eh, Windows is fine, if the following apply to you:
You're a GUI-oriented user
You care about how pretty your stuff looks
You play many games on your computer
Or if all your customers uses windows and what you are developing is SW for your customers.
Windows is actually really easy to develop on.
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I've started to dislike Windows again, because of the difficulty in setting up a dual boot system. Linux has no difficulty with this.
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Or if all your customers uses windows and what you are developing is SW for your customers.
Windows is actually really easy to develop on.
Not for C, and not for people who dislike using GUIs or IDEs. Windows' lack of of a native, supported POSIX implementation forces a UNIX developer like me to use MinGW, which means I can't use a proprietary or BSD licence if I want to statically link my code. I don't want to rewrite code to use proprietary APIs, because that would effectively mean that I would have to fork my Windows implementations and divide my efforts. Use of proprietary or custom C library calls tends to introduce bugs and security issues into the code, as shown by the OpenSSL project. LibreSSL has been fixing this by returning to use of standard C library calls existent in almost every standard libc. However, I, like many other people, prefer to use the POSIX libraries since, besides Windows, Amiga and a few other platforms, they're moreorless universal, and the majority of implementations are open source.
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Win 7 Pro for work so I can run AutoCad and my accounting package software and all the rest I use Amiga OS4.1, Amiga OS3.9, & Amiga OS1.3. My mobile miggies run Aspire OS & Amikit (OS3.5).
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Finally I see Fats referring to the GNU/Linux as 'Linux' but this is incorrect, as Linux is just the kernel, and there are versions such as Alpine Linux which use a minimum of GNU software such as uClibc, etc.
I don't mind being incorrect but I am using Linux and I mean with that all distro's with Linux as the kernel. Android is a border case in my twisted mind as it (currently) needs a heavily modified kernel.
Humans are irrational; trying to be rational can cause mental problems.
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trying to be rational can cause mental problems.
Well said. :)
Plaz
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Ubuntu Linux for everyday internet activity and communication, it is more stable, gives more privacy and is not plagued with malware, like Windows. However I also use Windows 7 for games and WinUAE.
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@TeamBlackFox
You are meerschaum aka mips_proc and I claim my five pounds :lol:
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On my smartphones (more than two ;) ) I use Android though, before it I used (I still have the phone at home and working) Maemo 5 (on my first smartphone)...
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OSX Snow Leopard at home and Windows 7 ant work. WP8.1 on my Windowsphone and IOS on my iPad.
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@TeamBlackFox >> Well the customers I work with uses GUI's since they are regular users.
Maybe your customers are more into consoles, but that can hardly be true for the majority of users.
Personally I dislike using consoles. But that is the beauty of computers, there is something for everyone.
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@ above
He will love typing when he gets RSI. lol
I like Windows when you have the latest version and only a few applications installed. It works fine. When you ask it to do more I start getting problems.
After a session using Amiga OS I come back to Windows and notice it could do with some improvements especially in the gui.
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BSD: % chmod 755 foo.tar.bz
Windows: CACLS filename /e /p {USERNAME}:{PERMISSION}
FTFY. Seems a bit more flexible than the UNIX command as well, as you can specify an individual user as well as a group.
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Windows: More drivers and software. Multi-core.
Linux: Not windows. Multi-core.
Haiku-OS: I like BeOS. Not windows. Multi-core. Still Beta.
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Yssing, it isn't even about GUIs the simple fact that Windows lacks open APIs and libraries makes it less secure and also less usable for someone who primarily produces BSD-style licence software. Encumbering myself with proprietary or copyleft licence restrictions is unacceptable.
Tone007, you've moved from permissions now to ownership, which under UNIX is a totally separate concept. In UNIX it is accomplished via chown, in the following syntax:
% chown user:group $file
Windows NT lacks the difference here, and it also lacks ASLR which means if I back a program, get it installed on a computer then as long as I have admin level privileges I can overwrite critical portions of the memory with no defence against that. In modern UNIX ASLR protects against this by randomising the layout of the memory address space making it significantly more difficult for an attacker to crash a machine.
ElPolloDiablo, I never have gotten RSI from typing, but from mice usage I have. I use Dvorak and also generally keep my wrists straight while typing to avoid RSI.
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No-one still using DOS then?
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Tone007, you've moved from permissions now to ownership, which under UNIX is a totally separate concept. In UNIX it is accomplished via chown, in the following syntax:
% chown user:group $file
Windows NT lacks the difference here
No, ownership and permissions are separate in Windows as well. CACLS manages permissions, TAKEOWN will allow you to manage ownership.
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Linux and Solaris. Dont need to go into why, facts start flame wars.
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Pretty much everything that is programmable sits here somewhere, though the main system(s) are Linux (Debian, actually). Other Os'es that run here are Solaris, IRIX, and MacOs. Even some old AIX machines somewhere, though we might have thrown them out. Yes, windows sits here somewhere, too, caged into virtual machines, starting from Win XP (the obsolete) WinXP 64 (the strange), Windows 7 (the beauty) and Windows 8 (the beast). It's quite a collection of machines from bleeding edge to obsolete. Yes, it's a computing center.
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No, ownership and permissions are separate in Windows as well. CACLS manages permissions, TAKEOWN will allow you to manage ownership.
I researched, and you're correct. Few points I need to touch on: chmod is more useful because you can make a directory and everything inside of it inherit the same permissions, using the -R flag. CACLS lacks this functionality, and it looks like MS is trying to replace it with ICACLS which already has a severe security exploit against it in all known versions:
It ignores permission to change files (write protection) so if I hack a xomputer and am only running as a limited user I can potentially gain access to files that would otherwise not be readable.
These problems are because Winodws' NT line was never designed with security as a forefront, and in the interest of backwards compatibility with very old versions they have to tack on security at higher levels. It also was never designed to be used on the open web, only behind a local secured a firewalled LAN, because to this day there are RDP exploits on Vista and below, that assuming I know your IP, it is game over in terms of security.
This may not interest many people here but I'm an infosec enthusiast, and I keep my wits about me in regards to data security by using Windows behind PFSense firewalls, securing all of the insecure services turned on by default and I always am very careful about what I download and unpack on those machines.
>Solaris
I'm surprised to see that here! What do you use it for? And what version?
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I use OS X and various GNU/Linux at work and mostly OS X at home as well, but on my personal computers I run Debian GNU/Linux. In OS X, I use VirtualBox and Vagrant a lot to run various operating systems, including Windows, *BSD, GNU/Linux distros and more obscure but interesting operating systems like MINIX 3 and plan9. With Vagrant I can set up such a virtualized environment with a single command as a one-off development server.
OS X is nice though, and I enjoy its BSD user land. It's a legitimate (and certified) UNIX that runs well out of the box as far as I am concerned. Using the different package managers that are available for it makes it very convenient as development workstation.
@TeamBlackFox >> Well the customers I work with uses GUI's since they are regular users.
Maybe your customers are more into consoles, but that can hardly be true for the majority of users.
You can develop GUI applications using a terminal based toolset, you know. In some cases it doesn't matter what the customer prefers, because the customer won't even know that the software is running.
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Most of the stuff I do is under my name and I also have signed some NDAs so I'm limited on what I can say.
However I have assisted someone in development of a set of debug tools for a game console in the event of a crash. These are based on the NetBSD userland, with lots of functionality not needed stripped out. What I worked on mostly was the equivalent of busybox for the project. Since it was more of a question on how to trim the tools down for space constraints, rather than anything else, it was less involved with writing code more than cutting and hacking it down. I do not get paid for the work I perform in many cases, I prefer to simply go for the experience. I have a non programming job currently that enables me to pick and choose where I can contribute to. There simply isn't a target audience that requires a GUI for what I do, what is more important is for the code to be portable and not dependent on proprietary APIs or libraries.
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I also have a FreeDos box.
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Maybe your customers are more into consoles, but that can hardly be true for the majority of users.
You might be astonished. End users in Windows land - yes, those are GUI users. But a lot of software doesn't have a GUI, and doesn't interact directly with the user. Server stuff, mostly, middle-ware, libraries. My software usually does not have a GUI, and if it has, the GUI is rendered by a browser. Thus, the "operating system" is Firefox, IE, opera, also Java in some cases, but rarely ever the "native" GUI of the host Os. Applications today - well, that's all in the internet.
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Work: Windows 7 as that's what the company provides plus the server farm is mostly Windows with some RedHat Linux and AS400 systems thrown in. I'm an Operator and C# programmer for custom Ops Apps.
Home: Windows 8.1 (desktop), Linux Mint v16 (desktop), OS-X Leopard (laptop).
Most home use is web browsing, email, programming, and casual gaming (in that order). Programming includes (in order of usage) BlitzMax, PureBasic, Monkey, C/C++, and PHP implemented across all 3 platforms. Linux runs Apache and MySQL. I created about 4 small game Apps in BlitzMax with an additional app nearing completion, one game in Monkey, and one work in progress in PureBasic. I've been thinking about porting to C/C++ so trying to determine a good cross-platform GUI library for C/C++ and wondering if converting existing code from Basic to C is worth the effort. Anyways, that's my input on the question.
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No-one still using DOS then?
I'd sooner hang myself.
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The latest computer I have purchased is an i7 laptop and it came with Windows8, which I absolutely hate. I updated it free to 8.1, but it did not help any, and I am so tempted to downgrade to Windows7.
I use it mostly for one MMO game that I play with a few friends and family members, plus my CAD drawing software, but lately about half of my time spent on the i7 laptop is running AmigaForever, which it does very well.
What is really disappointing is that even with all of this power and RAM and hard drive speed, I still experience glitches during video playback occasionally. The simplicity of Amiga (and Amiga inspired) systems is so much more fun and relaxing to deal with. I am always trying to do more on my Amiga/Amiga inspired systems and less on my Windows/Mac/Linux systems.
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Win 8.1 Home
OSX at Work
After many years with Ubuntu i have gone with MS 8.1
It just works hassle free for everything i use my pc for
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The latest computer I have purchased is an i7 laptop and it came with Windows8, which I absolutely hate. I updated it free to 8.1, but it did not help any, and I am so tempted to downgrade to Windows7.
I use it mostly for one MMO game that I play with a few friends and family members, plus my CAD drawing software, but lately about half of my time spent on the i7 laptop is running AmigaForever, which it does very well.
What is really disappointing is that even with all of this power and RAM and hard drive speed, I still experience glitches during video playback occasionally. The simplicity of Amiga (and Amiga inspired) systems is so much more fun and relaxing to deal with. I am always trying to do more on my Amiga/Amiga inspired systems and less on my Windows/Mac/Linux systems.
I suppose you have a point here regarding AmigaOS's ability to manage memory fairly well, if relying on cooperative multitasking with a preemptive scheduler. I also think the message passing and overall efficiency with which the OS and hardware combined can do is something that many operating systems have failed to do.
However, there are severe drawbacks to using AmigaOS for a day-to-day which have prevented me from using it beyond as a novelty on the 3000:
Lack of any basic or advanced security mechanisms
Lack of task isolation and privilege separation, meaning malicious programs can run and lock up a system or send it into a Guru meditation
Lack of sophisticated filesystems with features like RAID, snapshots or crash-safety which I use and rely on every day
Lack of updated browser
Lack of 64-bit support ( I rely heavily on 64-bit math, pointers, and memory addressing for many programs which I run and have had hands in developing )
Also, on Windows, anytime it comes up in conversation these days I think of this immediately, since Android 19 runs Windows apparently with that voice of his: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsx09hDU0Sw
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fsx09hDU0Sw)
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Windows 7. Only because I use the Pinacle Studio program for digitizing VHS tapes and editing video. Otherwise, I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.
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OS X Leopard 10.5.8 (Powerbook G4)
Why do I use it? Because it's not Windows. ^^
SpartaDOS X 4.20 (Atari 130XE with a hard drive)
Best and most powerful DOS for the 8 bit Atari systems, hands down.
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Lack of 64-bit support ( I rely heavily on 64-bit math, pointers, and memory addressing for many programs which I run and have had hands in developing )
64-bit math on AmigaOs is as good or bad as 64-bit math on every other 32-bit microprocessor. On every system I've seen, 64-bit math is something that has to be supported at the compiler level. The 68K has no "native" 64 bit math, but offers enough instructions to allow it (addx, subx, and multi-precision multiplication and division are well-known algorithms).
The problem is rather that the "system compiler" SAS/C has no native support for it. Adding support is not a major issue, though the resulting code is arguable non-ideal.
What is a problem that the whole device/filing system infrastructure lacks support for it. Devices with more than 2^32 blocks already create a compatibility problem (between TD64 and the dreadful NSD), files >4GB create problems, more than 4GB memory is not possible... So it's actually not the math part that causes problems. The infrastructure is missing. It simply wasn't an issue back then.
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It is a little more complicated than that in my case, what I mean is I rely on a 64-bit CPU and ABIs that support the 64-bit features of the CPU. I do not currently code on x86, 68k or ARM32, I instead have supported and focused mostly on MIPS, POWER, and ARM64 and all of my programmes I have helped write require and are optimised for, 64-bit big and little endian CPUs.
Anyways the topic is seriously getting out of hand. Even if I had 64-bit capability I wouldn't be able to use it for everyday work. I don't work on systems that have no concept of memory protection or privilege separation.
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My main systems are currently
Mac OS X 10.9.x Mavericks and GNU(Step)/Linux. Though with the latest progress I made on Anima (my very own OS, mainly inspired by Mac OS X, NEXTStep and Amiga OS), I might soon run that one as my new main OS :)
Almost done with the login manager (both back- and frontend. Though the former uses experimental, interpreted code. Will later replace this with fully compiled and properly audited code).
https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/t31.0-8/10636917_735314176506114_210760376585479809_o.jpg
EDIT: That one is from my GNUStep based Linux distro.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-xaf1/t31.0-8/1403024_735331573171041_438591473160101029_o.jpg
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You can develop GUI applications using a terminal based toolset, you know. In some cases it doesn't matter what the customer prefers, because the customer won't even know that the software is running.
True, I can develp GUI's using terminal based toolset, I can create GUI's using just C and creating everything by hand, but if you ask the end user if the want to pay for it, the answer in my case is a no. So for me it comes down to a time/money issue.
It is also very true, that the customer usually don't know what OS the program is running, but since, the company I work at, supplies customers with entire POS systems, support and training also matters, so trying to make our customers use linux or something they are not familiar with would mean loosing customers.
True that broswers can do alot, but there area lot of short comings when it comes to POS and creditcard terminals and browsers.
Any way I did not mean to start a flamewar, the question was, what OS and why..
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You might be astonished. End users in Windows land - yes, those are GUI users. But a lot of software doesn't have a GUI, and doesn't interact directly with the user.
I know.
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@yssing
Are credit card terminals in Denmark running Windows?
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True, I can develp GUI's using terminal based toolset, I can create GUI's using just C and creating everything by hand, but if you ask the end user if the want to pay for it, the answer in my case is a no. So for me it comes down to a time/money issue.
The end user pays for your development tools? My point is that you don't have to use GUI tools just because you're targeting a graphical environment, I'm not saying that you'd necessarily be handing the customers terminal based applications.
It is also very true, that the customer usually don't know what OS the program is running, but since, the company I work at, supplies customers with entire POS systems, support and training also matters, so trying to make our customers use linux or something they are not familiar with would mean loosing customers.
True that broswers can do alot, but there area lot of short comings when it comes to POS and creditcard terminals and browsers.
I can't argue against your particular choices or situation. Your original argument was about users in general, which is why I even responded.
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@Blinx. I never said that. We "talk" to them via dll.
@Linde. Customers pay their bills, which then pays our salary and the companies expenses.
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@yssing
Ah. Ok. Was really shocked, for a second.
I guess I can take Denmark off my list of "countries I'd never pay with a credit card in".
@Linde
Unless the resulting UI is either really simple (i. e. something one would be able to create in zenity and the likes) or the company/developer in question has a really good, prototype based model, putting UIs together in a graphical fashion is still considerably more straightforward.
I'm really envious of Apple's Cocoa framework. It seems to work quite well in regards to quickly creating a usable graphical user interface.
In contrast, Junior (one of the two frameworks of my Anima OS) in its current form requires people to import prototypes or manually create a new form. Something that can be quite cumbersome.
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I guess I can take Denmark off my list of "countries I'd never pay with a credit card in".
Windows is used for credit card payments in all countries. Linux too and look how often that gets hacked.
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I use windows for everything, gaming, browsing, downloading etc...... and I use my Amiga for that retro feeling :)
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Windows is used for credit card payments in all countries. Linux too and look how often that gets hacked.
Actual credit card terminals and backbones don't use Windows.
Basically the whole banking sector concentrates around certified Unix solutions.
There are major requirements when it comes to banking.
You entering your credit card info on Amazon is not the same as a server processing and routing your personal data.
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Actual credit card terminals and backbones don't use Windows.
Well, maybe that goes for the backbones and the servers, but the actual terminals (what's inside the ATM) is pretty much Windows here in Germany, XP, sometimes even Win2000 or OS/2. I don't even want to think about security... Much the same goes for ticket machines for bus or train services.
The servers for internet banking services - now that's a different story.
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Basically the whole banking sector concentrates around certified Unix solutions.
Certified for what? Have you seen the number of exploits in unix systems?
Windows certainly has a bad reputation, but it's generally not deserved.
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Certified for what? Have you seen the number of exploits in unix systems?
Unix servers have usually certified hardware, certified for the corresponding Os (or vice versa). We have here servers certified for Enterprise Ubuntu and SLES, thus commercial variants of Linux distributions that include service and support for some years, including security patches.
Actually, if you count the number of exploits on *ix and Windows, then there's not much of a difference - if you check how fast such exploits are fixed, then *ix is usually way ahead. Humans make errors,regardless of whether they are employed by M$ or not.
What makes *ix so interesting is that it is a pretty modular system. System components that are not installed do not have exploits. Win is much less configurable (even the server variants) - you basically get what M$ delivers, and if that doesn't fit your needs, you're in trouble. M$ delivers, however, a whole ecosystem, i.e. a whole suit of products that work together (and probably not with anything else). Well, that's the "golden cage" of M$ - this can be good or bad, depending on your needs (or your ability or willingness to pay). If you "just" need a working system, this can be quite an advantage.
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I use Windows 8 on a Lenovo touchscreen laptop and have Mac OSX Yosimite on my iMac. Honestly I use the Windows 8 more, love it on a touchscreen and it utulizes hardware really good actually. Took getting used to but after using it for a week or so I really liked it a lot. Mac OS isn't too bad but don't think it's all that and I prefer the Android and Windows store over the App Store. Think the App store isn't as easy to navigate and I see things on there that you have to buy but is free on the other two. Also some of the prices (I don't mind paying and supporting the developers) are ridiculously expensive. Don't get me wrong I do like some of the stuff but am truly grateful to have all three (plus my beautiful Amigas of course that are my ultimate love :)) and be able to have access to everything out there (some stuff in App store not available in the others, but not that many anymore honestly). Cheers
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Windows certainly has a bad reputation, but it's generally not deserved.
Maybe from your POV, but from mine, Windows bad reputation is very deserved. IMO, it is bloated crapware that can slow down even the best systems. It's only redeeming features are that it runs on just about anything, and there are some applications that can only be run on a Windows system and nothing else.
With all this power we have with today's CPU's and video cards, you would think that the response of the latest version of Windows should be instantaneous, but it does not seem to be much better (if any) on my i7 laptop, or i5 desktop, than Windows 97 was on Pentium class hardware. I am talking about the responsiveness of the Windows desktop and sub-windows. Multi-tasking still is not as smooth as it was on my 7MHz A1000 in 1987, though it has improved a little bit from the early days of multi-tasking on Windows systems.
My two Windows PC's aren't the fastest available, but they are faster than the average PC's out there and both have good discrete video cards, so again IMO, they should perform much better than they do. If I didn't need Windows to run a couple of applications that I can't get on Linux or MacOSX, I would never run any Windows OS, and I would convert both systems into Hackintosh's, or one into a Hackintosh and the other into a very lightweight and fast Linux distro.
@TeamBlackFox,
I agree that none of the Amiga or Amiga inspired platforms are satisfactory for my needs as a daily system. Security being the main reason I would not use an Amiga or Amiga inspired system for all of my daily needs.
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I would never run any Windows OS, and I would convert both systems into Hackintosh's
Weren't people buying apple intel laptops and installing Windows because it was really fast hardware but MacOS ran slower than Windows?
I don't know what bloatware you have. Some PC manufacturers install a load of software for you, I always reformat and reinstall.
I don't remember the Amiga 1000 being particularly fast when the disks were grinding away or when bringing a window to the front as it redrew the contents.
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@psxphill
Windows is, quite undeniably, sluggish.
Indexing is way more read intensive than it should be, some things just take forever to appear and killing a process/task seldom works on the first try.
Even Microsoft kernel devs themselves admit that they're somewhat behind other operating systems.
The Windows NT kernel is really progressing at a snails pace, compared to Apple's XNU, the Linux kernel and BSD.
Work outside the kernel isn't any better either. One literally can't go through the day without reading news on GNU/Linux or one of the BSDs. The same cannot be said about Windows.
Weren't people buying apple intel laptops and installing Windows because it was really fast hardware but MacOS ran slower than Windows?
Actually, people are buying Apple hardware because it's the most compatible (i. e. they don't need to manually install as many drivers).
As far as performance is concerned. That's actually quite a bit of a myth. The agency publishing those performance benchmarks later admitted that they compared a clean slate Windows installation on the Macbook to HP/Toshiba laptops running all the pre-installed bloatware.
In hindsight, earlier (pre-2013) models could actually perform worse under Windows, since they all rely on an earlier version of Bootcamp that didn't support EFI natively, thus relying on HDD performance inhibiting Bios emulation. AFAIK, the Macbook Air 2013 was the first one to include an UEFI 2.0 compliant boot loader that could boot into UEFI Windows natively.
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AmigaDave,
Glad we agree on that! Just to correct you there, Windows runs on just about any x86 or ARM hardware, NetBSD is by far more portable supporting over a dozen architectures in mostly usable state and about two-dozen that are in development.
In regards to the Windows and Mac discussions:
Windows is a complete ecosystem, like BSD, but far more constructed, so trying to remove anything that it comes with is mostly useless. BSD provides the bare minimum with which to build a complete system, and minimally constructed at that.
GNU/Linux and OS X have more in common with each other than most realise, considering they're both patchworks of various projects that can, but not necessarily will, work smoothly together. GNU/Linux at minimum has GNU providing the shell, the core command set, and the compiler suite, Linux providing the kernel, and various other projects including Systemd for startup and greater userland tools, X or Wayland providing display protocol, various windowing systems and desktop environments providing graphics. OS X has a Mach kernel, BSD kernel modules, a mix of GNU and FreeBSD command set and user land, launchd providing startup, and various in house Apple projects providing audio, display and graphics protocols.
One of my biggest gripes with Apple, and to a lesser extent MS and the NG Amigas, is the heavy reliance on vendor lock-in tactics. Apple controls hardware, software and everything in between so the consumer is left with a device that will only perform satisfactory until Apple decides to can support for it. MS relies on tactics like Secure boot, UEFI, and breaking ABI compatibility between releases to force users to upgrade software suites, and to control the hardware's usage. This is why I oppose moving to x86 for NG Amigas, because the general approach will likely be to using custom built devices like Apple to control the amount of support for hardware, as the thousands of volunteers who code Linux drivers can't even support a third of the devices on the market, so the tiny Amiga community certainly will fail at that. At least with the recent OPENPOWER development there is a chance that once OS4 or MorphOS is feature complete and modernised, that various companies could provide hardware for them without patent encumbrance and allowing other open source projects like NetBSD or the Linux kernel would take interest since both have a huge interest in open hardware projects.
Anyways getting a bit off topic here.
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@TeamBlackFox
Just wondering. Do you know any specific part of the pre-installed Mac OS X userland that is GNU?
One would think Apple would be smart enough to avoid GNU. Not just because it's bloatware but also because of its license.
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Maybe from your POV, but from mine, Windows bad reputation is very deserved. IMO, it is bloated crapware that can slow down even the best systems. It's only redeeming features are that it runs on just about anything, and there are some applications that can only be run on a Windows system and nothing else.
Well I can honestly I have no problems when using windows it runs very quick and I get no slow down what so ever, as long as you have decent software to help maintain the OS you are good to go.
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Well I can honestly I have no problems when using windows it runs very quick and I get no slow down what so ever, as long as you have decent software to help maintain the OS you are good to go.
Didn't you say before that Windows was the only "modern" OS you were using?
Don't get me wrong, but I think you're lacking experience with another OS to truly be aware of what people consider "quick".
That aside, other OS' run considerably better on much less recent hardware.
My 14 year old office laptop running GNUStep is as snappy as my colleague's 1 year old Windows 8.1 laptop with a Samsung SSD and 32 times the RAM.
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Yeah bash and binutils are from GNU.
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Didn't you say before that Windows was the only "modern" OS you were using?
Don't get me wrong, but I think you're lacking experience with another OS to truly be aware of what people consider "quick".
That aside, other OS' run considerably better on much less recent hardware.
My 14 year old office laptop running GNUStep is as snappy as my colleague's 1 year old Windows 8.1 laptop with a Samsung SSD and 32 times the RAM.
Yes but its not the only one I have tried.
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Yeah bash and binutils are from GNU.
Oh. Right. Been using zsh for so long, I completely forgot about bash. ^^
binutils seems to be a wild mixture of licenses. ld is actually BSD derived and strip seems to be reimplemented by Apple. as is definitely GNU.
Didn't even realize Mac OS X had so much GNU under the hood. I might consider switching to another, GNU free OS now. Lol.
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Weren't people buying apple intel laptops and installing Windows because it was really fast hardware but MacOS ran slower than Windows?
Actually, people were buying Apple x86 laptops because they were fed up with all the issues and viruses on Windows AND they believed they would feel safe knowing that they can always dual boot (or emulate) Windows if they find it hard to find the apps/games/warez in the macland. The build quality, the looks, the stability, the strong resale value of the hardware & software helped too. Many of them never looked back. Old mac users never liked them anyway - they call them switchers.
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Certified for what?
Certified for being UNIX? UNIX certification is a thing in itself for starters.
Have you seen the number of exploits in unix systems?
Please point to them and convince me that you are also aware of exploits available for other systems and are making a fair comparison.
When exploitable OpenSSL and bash behavior was found recently, I could upgrade these software components within 24 hours of the open disclosures of their discovery to have them fixed. Had the same thing happened in Windows, I'd probably be waiting for the behavior to be exploited in the wild before the issue was even addressed, and Windows software has had its fair share of security holes. The only reason these exploits make the news is because of full disclosure, that UNIX-like systems make up a large part of the internet infrastructure, and the relative infrequency of such issues on UNIX-likes.
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Actually, people were buying Apple x86 laptops because they were fed up with all the issues and viruses on Windows
I always wondered how people actually get their Win machines so full of crud, mallware and slow downs. I've been using WinXP for years, and have only ever had one virus that I know of because of some illegal game (which I later bought). I don't use virus checkers, no other anti mall ware, no nothing. I have plenty of software installed, too, and no real slowdown (and I don't have a beast peecee).
Really. If people used their brains, their Win machines would stay nice. I used an old Pentium 3 peecee some two and a half years ago before buying my current low end machine. Never any issues (also plenty of software installed), except for that one time virus mentioned above.
Of course, to be on the safe side, I don't do online banking on my peecee. You never know if there is some crap running without those virus checkers. Inconvenient, yes, but nothing a linux distro on an old peecee wont fix.
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Unfortunately Windows 8.1 is my main machine, simple because of certain work requirements and gaming, however since odyssey arrived on OS4 and it can play Youtube and Google Doc and is a lot more stable its nice that I can more and more find that my computing needs can be fulfilled by Amiga. Just wish it was a bit quicker at certain tasks.
Linux I kinda try to make the move but agian just some certain little areas in support of both gaming and work have provented me from waving good bye to the big MS, I hope there will be a day when I can.
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Unfortunately Windows 8.1 is my main machine, simple because of certain work requirements and gaming, however since odyssey arrived on OS4 and it can play Youtube and Google Doc and is a lot more stable its nice that I can more and more find that my computing needs can be fulfilled by Amiga. Just wish it was a bit quicker at certain tasks.
Linux I kinda try to make the move but agian just some certain little areas in support of both gaming and work have provented me from waving good bye to the big MS , I hope there will be a day when I can.
Why not make a list of those things?
I'm sure someone (perhaps even me ;) ) would be willing to work on it.
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Gaming on linux has improved significantly over recent years due to Valve/Steam and projects like the Humble Bundle.
You can always run windows in a vm for anything that you can't do on linux - in my case I still need Windows for development on the original Xbox - but for everything else I use linux.
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One literally can't go through the day without reading news on GNU/Linux or one of the BSDs. The same cannot be said about Windows.
Sure, Linux & BSD are attention whores who don't have to worry about being backward compatible with 20 year old LOB apps.
They get an easy ride, which you can go along with. You shouldn't be naïve to think that there is anything inherently better about how they are developed.
You can have it quickly, good or cheap. Pick two.
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Sure, Linux & BSD are attention whores who don't have to worry about being backward compatible with 20 year old LOB apps.
They get an easy ride, which you can go along with. You shouldn't be naïve to think that there is anything inherently better about how they are developed.
Lol. BS.
1. GNU/Linux, BSD and the likes are no less compatible with old software than Windows. In fact, they are actually more compatible in some areas, since they don't have to rely on deprecated subsystem
(re)implementations and the likes. POSIX software is, in most cases, rather easy to "upgrade". Old Windows software might miss certain irreplacable DDLs or depend on pre-NT kernel functionality that isn't part of the MS Dos subsystem. It's also worth noting that 16 bit software won't run on a modern 64 bit OS (not without emulation), so 20+ year old software might not run at all.
2. GNU/Linux and BSD are both developed by a multinational team of volunteers as well as big corporations. So of course the way they're built is more efficient and generally more productive than the way Windows is implemented. There's much more user and developer input between releases and due to the sheer amount of new developers joining every year, stuff simply gets done much faster.
It's plain, unadulterated Capitalism (not Communism, as Stalinist Microsoft once claimed).
You can have it quickly, good or cheap. Pick two.
With pleasure. Picking quick and good, since I don't exactly consider my *nix related work cheap. ;)
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Well, try to run a five year old Linux binary on a today's machine and have fun. Ok, I should be more precise: On a GNU/Linux system because the kernel API is usually more stable (mostly, but not always), but library interfaces seem to change on a daily basis.
However, one should also be fair and understand how programs on Linux are used and developed. Windows lives from binary distribution, Linux lives from source code distribution and its volunteers. On linux, you have to recompile, and you have to depend on the community to port from one release to another. Linux runs usually with the programs you get from your distribution, and only if you're lucky from those compiled for something else.
Still, it is a lot of work, and Linux would have a larger user base (but a smaller author and maintainer basis) if the API would be more stable and binary programs could be just used and installed "right away", even from outside the distribution.
Linux makes its programmers happy. Windows makes its vendors happy. Either you beome a programmer and pick Linux and keep maintaining it, or you become a user, pick Windows and keep paying for it.