Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga community support ideas => Topic started by: Cammy on September 19, 2014, 07:24:54 PM
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Welcome to the Amigakit forum. I'll be elsewhere.
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Wow, I had no idea there were so many of them :)
And some of those packages look better than "modern" games on the shelves today :D
Thank you for this detailed report Cammy !
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Dear AmigaNuts:
I do not have much extra money now, but when I can in the future,
i will like to buy the 'new' amiga games, just to support the amiga developers.
I really want to support the new software, and I promise i will buy.
Love !!!
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We were happy to financially support the Tales of Gorluth developer and we would be happy to support any future Amiga games being published in the future. If there are any developers out there that want help getting their Amiga game or application published, please get in touch with us.
Very shortly there will be the new AMIStore App Store launched for the Amiga, covering both Classic Amiga and AmigaOS 4. The idea behind this is to bring financial rewards for all Amiga developers and make it easier for smaller Amiga developers to publish their software and get greater exposure for it. I am sure we all want more developers and games, apps available for our favourite computer.
(http://a-eon.biz/images/amistore_poster_sm.png)
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Yes, but I think the main reason behind your implementation of the ideas of others is your own personal gain first and foremost. An Amiga App Store should be maintained by the Amiga community together, not controlled by a single profiteer.
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We have a few objectives behind the AMIStore project such as ensuring that developers get paid. In the past developers have not been paid for their hard work and have decided to leave the Amiga.
We also want to make sure that games and apps are published to a specific quality level, easy to install, and easy to obtain by Amiga users.
We will host free games and apps on AMIStore and support developers who want to give away their creations to the community.
We are financially supporting developers to ensure they can get the vital ground work done on their software- without this early financial support, the software would simply not be created for the Amiga.
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So really it's about your need to control the entire Amiga market personally? Nothing gets by without you needing to make sure business is directed your way. Any time Amiga users want to help each other out of the kindness of their own hearts you need assert yourself as the middleman and fill your own pockets.
What I'm suggesting is a transparent funding system for the Amiga community, run by the Amiga community. We would ensure the money goes exactly where it's needed, not filtered by those who already have enough. We take matters into our own hands rather than waiting several years for someone like you to catch on and implement your own half-arsed, twice as costly copy.
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Best of luck with your venture. At the end of the day, I am interested in furthering the cause of more quality software development and creativity on the Amiga, so if you have an idea for that, I will of course welcome it.
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:(
(http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140423034814/roblox-apocalypse-rising/images/2/2a/Anchorman-well-that-escalated-quickly.jpg)
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No sh!t!!!!!!
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Wow.
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Welcome to the Amigakit forum. I'll be elsewhere.
I am confused, what just happened? Before Cammy edited her original post was their a report, or a link to a report about homebrew game publishing? If yes, I would like to read it, so can someone please restore the info that she apparently edited out?
I know a little about Cammy from the few conversations via email that I have had with her, and I know her to be a dedicated supporter of all things Amiga related, but I have never seen responses like these from her, so I really want to know what set her off, or angered her to cause such a response. She has been and I expect will always be a great asset to our community, always very helpful and willing to test any software on multiple hardware for any developers.
I also support AmigaKit and all of their efforts to help our community, so it pains me to see these two great contributors to the Amiga community at odds with each other. Did I miss something that someone can explain to me which has caused this disagreement or friction?
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It was kinda like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUJxMUduawg
With the bone an apt metaphor for the Amiga market. ;)
Yeah, sorry, I got nothing but bad jokes today. :(
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Did I miss something that someone can explain to me which has caused this disagreement or friction?
Are you so naive or is it april 1st?
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When Cammy says she wants to support the Amiga community, that's exactly what she means. It's all for them, none for her. So she has a problem with people who take more than they give back. She doesn't hide behind some false, "well-meaning" facade. The thing is she was pushing the Amiga community to develop new software and promoting the idea of an app store years before Amigakit stepped in. She provided prize incentives out of her own unemployed pocket in game making competitions she started to promote development. Where was Amigakit all those years? Did they ever offer to donate a prize? No, but others who sold similar products for a lot less than he does gave away hardware prizes. She made friends with the real people in the Amiga community and inspired them to keep working, she brought hundreds of new users to the community and helped so many of them get the most out of their Amigas. She helped hardware developers produce new peripherals for us by networking with innovators from around the world.
So I guess you can see why she has a problem with this guy who only ever "helps" when he sees something in it for himself.
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No one is surprised by this "dictatorshipment" of this forums at the hands of amigakit crew, closed threads of people that just try to shell gears, deleted opinions that arent liked by this "crew" and so on.
My opinion... the better amiga store is aminet... but of course aminet is not on the same business.
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When Cammy says she wants to support the Amiga community, that's exactly what she means. It's all for them, none for her. So she has a problem with people who take more than they give back. She doesn't hide behind some false, "well-meaning" facade. The thing is she was pushing the Amiga community to develop new software and promoting the idea of an app store years before Amigakit stepped in. She provided prize incentives out of her own unemployed pocket in game making competitions she started to promote development. Where was Amigakit all those years? Did they ever offer to donate a prize? No, but others who sold similar products for a lot less than he does gave away hardware prizes. She made friends with the real people in the Amiga community and inspired them to keep working, she brought hundreds of new users to the community and helped so many of them get the most out of their Amigas. She helped hardware developers produce new peripherals for us by networking with innovators from around the world.
So I guess you can see why she has a problem with this guy who only ever "helps" when he sees something in it for himself.
Are you for REAL? What the hell does your agenda have to do with AmigaKit? What do you think AmigaKit owes you? This entire thread would seem nothing more than an unmitigated attack on a legitimate retailer providing a product to the Amiga community! It's this sort of attitude that gives Amiga a bad name! STOP WITH THE PITY PARTY ALREADY!!!!!! WHAT IS YOUR F*CKING PROBLEM!
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no one is surprised by this "dictatorshipment" of this forums at the hands of amigakit crew, closed threads of people that just try to shell gears, deleted opinions that arent liked by this "crew" and so on.
My opinion... The better amiga store is aminet... But of course aminet is not on the same business.
then leave already!
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@gismo350
Yes i can leave, im nothing here... but the sh1t stiil there.
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Are you for REAL? What the hell does your agenda have to do with AmigaKit? What do you think AmigaKit owes you? This entire thread would seem nothing more than an unmitigated attack on a legitimate retailer providing a product to the Amiga community! It's this sort of attitude that gives Amiga a bad name! STOP WITH THE PITY PARTY ALREADY!!!!!! WHAT IS YOUR F*CKING PROBLEM!
As a close friend of Cammy's I see directly how this guy has affected her with his insistence to %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! on her parade any chance he gets, and it's been going on for years now. It's a pity people like yourself lack the intuition to notice the patterns of behavior in these people over time, but it's clear to see for some of us who truly has an agenda.
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@rebel-cd32
Here are much people that just clap and say yes to amigakit and crew, talking like CEOs of imaginary companies... here amiga is seconday and real amigas are forgotten in some cases
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That was a hell of a thread-hijacking alright - and nice of AmigaKit to make it all about them, when there's also companies like Psytronik out there. You wouldn't think, given the amount of love that AmigaKit already gets in this community, that they'd have any cause to be jealous and possessive, but there you go. Very classy.
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I fail to see what the problem here. Sure, it is probably bad form to hijack the thread in this way, but I think Amigakit is a decent outfit.
As for stealing ideas, I feel that Cammy/Rebel have had some brilliant plans for the Amiga community but a lot of what they start is never finished. I was really looking forward to their version of Sonic and that Halloween-themed game, as well as the Dreamscape pre-configured WB-but I've never seen a finished product.
If someone else takes up the reigns of a suggestion thenI see it as a good thing.
I don't mean any disrespect to them, I just like to see things finished -even if it means paying for it.
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Much as I love Cammy for her Don-Quixote-like quest to help Amiga, it's self-interested people that made the Amiga what it was.
Jay Miner did want to create one of the best personal computers of it's time, but he didn't do it for the "community." He did it because -->he<-- wanted to do it and because he would earn money by doing so. The reason he did it by no means lessens his contribution to the rest of us.
Same goes for the inventor of the vaccine, the airplane, the car, etc...
Hell, but for Amigakit, I wouldn't have a replacement floppy for my A1200. Not to mention other items I've acquired over the years.
Did they hijack the thread? I suppose... Is this really worth all the hoopla it's generating? Not really.
Cammy? Keep fighting the good fight, but I don't think there's a reason why you can't do what you do and they can't do what they do. We can share this planet. ;)
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I personally support Cammy 100%. I like her ideas, and I wish her the best. I wish I could help somehow.
Now that I have a working A2000 again, maybe it's high time learn to program.......
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Are you for REAL? What the hell does your agenda have to do with AmigaKit? What do you think AmigaKit owes you? This entire thread would seem nothing more than an unmitigated attack on a legitimate retailer providing a product to the Amiga community! It's this sort of attitude that gives Amiga a bad name! STOP WITH THE PITY PARTY ALREADY!!!!!! WHAT IS YOUR F*CKING PROBLEM!
Don't like everyone having different opinions. Telling people to leave if you disagree with them. How low can you go? It like going jumping out of airplane without any landing gear.
No it don't give Amiga bad name. It just means that some of Amiga community are dissatisfied with the way things are being done. The thing that would give Amiga bad name is if the companies were selling bad products and not fixing them.
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As a close friend of Cammy's I see directly how this guy has affected her with his insistence to %&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! on her parade any chance he gets, and it's been going on for years now. It's a pity people like yourself lack the intuition to notice the patterns of behavior in these people over time, but it's clear to see for some of us who truly has an agenda.
Certainly not something I'm aware of such behaviour.
I didn't see cammy's original post but I assume she was proposing some sort apps store, Amigakit pointed out that they're about to release their own with all the infrastructure in place and Cammy said she wanted it to go a different way. If that's as bad as it gets I can't understand the problem.
I don't really see the problem with Amigakit promoting Amistore in this thread. Developers are free to pick and choose and will go with whatever suits them best. However, with two different app stores already in development, I can't help thinking that it would be better to spend time developing software than duplicating efforts already being made.
What is so wrong with Amigakit making some profit? It's not like they're some guy stockpiling NOS in his garage selling it all off without ever re-investing any back into the market. Amigakit are the only full time dealer specialising only in Amiga. Amigakit pay up front for the hardware they order from the likes of Elbox and Individual Computers and without this investment some of those products or new production runs probably wouldn't happen.
Lastly I hope that whatever differences there are between Amigakit and Cammy, that I'm seemingly unaware of, can be resolved, and she'll be back posting here. I hopes she is ok.
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The problem isn't with Amigakit making profit, it's with Amigakit making everything about Amigakit. By all accounts they're a well-run business that supports an underserved community, which is great - however, that does not give them license to ignore basic forum etiquette (and doing so is bad PR, which they ought to understand.) Besides, if the OP was anything like Cammy's identically-titled thread (http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?65456-Professionally-published-homebrew-games) over on Amibay, it didn't even mention anything about an app store, just discussed the recent increase in commercial publication of retro-homebrew titles and mused on possibilities to promote this kind of thing in the Amiga community. So it's not hard to see that as an obvious threadjack.
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Ah, finally some action.
Who wants a fight ?
;)
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Both Cammy and Amigakit have done a lot of good for Amiga users and the community - I'm sure they can find a way to co-operate, but Amigakit are a business in a small market so do need to drum up business and make money where they can.
In the post Power/Elbox Days of Amiga computing here in the UK, Amigakit are a reliable supplier of hardware and software products, and after-sales support that the community need.
Robert
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I am confused, what just happened? Before Cammy edited her original post was their a report, or a link to a report about homebrew game publishing? If yes, I would like to read it, so can someone please restore the info that she apparently edited out?
There was a huge, beautiful post about homebrew games with pictures and packages. I am lucky to have seen it in time.
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Both Cammy and Amigakit have done a lot of good for Amiga users and the community - I'm sure they can find a way to co-operate, but Amigakit are a business in a small market so do need to drum up business and make money where they can.
In the post Power/Elbox Days of Amiga computing here in the UK, Amigakit are a reliable supplier of hardware and software products, and after-sales support that the community need.
Robert
Generally I dislike if Marketing is hammering on me and Amigakit has partly overdone it for some time with almost every posting including X1000 and links on their shop. From what I have seen it got better recently. Propably Cammy was already upset before on Amigakit.
Generally App-Stores are not so easy to do. You can install a normal Store (PHP/MySQL) and include Amiga-products but doing a App-Store that is running on amiga platforms including automatic payment needs a lot of programming and that costs (and has to be covered later). You also need to host it (what is not free of charge either). Theoretically people could program it free of charge but we all know there is a shortage of skilled programmers and obviously there was noone interested to do it.
We will soon have two competing App-Stores, one cross-platform and the other AmigaOS related, if that really makes sense in a small market is another topic. Both request money, I am ok with it as long as they offer services that help the customers (in this case both devs and users). There is no free lunch in the world.
@Cammy
As far as I know is the other App-Store hosting all apps/games for free, only if you sell something on the platform it costs something (you find the thread on aros-exec)
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I like the app store. It gives a lot of advertising. The old way was to download some shareware and then send a cheque to someone.
Plus you might end up trying a bunch of $1.99 downloads, buy the series for 20% off etc.
Btw will there be a refund if you don't like the software?
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Why would there be a refund?
Last night I held a LAN party with a bunch of friends and we wanted to try a new game.
We decided on the title and just searched steam store, clicked purchase and a few minutes later we all had it installed.
Its how i see AmiStore. Amigakit gets some income for the ease of access and availability of software/games. Developers gets their software sort of adverised by staring you in the face thru the app.
Again like steam store, they run adverts, and while I ususally dont impulse buy cause of it, Over the years Ive gathered 50 or so games for a few quid. Some of my friends well over 100.
If it hadnt been for Steam those developers would most likely have sold much fewer copies.
A few of those titles wasnt as fun as I had expected, but thats down to personal taste and the lack of research from my part before purchasing.
Then you have amigakits hardware online shop; this I compare with komplett.no when i shop for my PC. They make a % revenue, and I got hardware readily available and I know that within a few days its delivered. I gladly pay a few % for the convinience.
Why the same shouldnt be true for Amigaland is beyond me.
I love the fact that I dont have to spend hours hunting/searching thru google, ebay etc to find something I want which usually means you have to deal with personas you have no idea about, and its a cointoss regarding quality of delivered product.
THAT said, I have nothing but admiration for people wanting to do non-profit models aswell.
There should be room for them all on this and other platform.
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As far as Amigakit overdoing it;
Over the years people have complained about lack of information from Hyperion for example with regards to development plans and progress reports.
Then you have entities like Amigakit and aeon that remedy that by being very active, raising awareness about available service.
Damned if you do, damned if you dont.
If you plan to survive as a fulltime shop that provide paychecks to fulltime employees then you HAVE to be visible by neccessity. Its active posting on this and other forum that has made me aware of ALTERNATIVES to Amigakit, and it has lead to me purchasing from them too.
Additionally, there is a overhead cost to stockpile hardware.
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App store this and app store that, it's all just hype. In real life it won't matter especially not for this small community. It's nice to have on a Android/Iphone because it makes it easier to install apps and there's thousands of them and hundreds that are actually good apps. But on a desktop/laptop with a niche OS with very very very few worthwhile apps/games so to have a App Store for those are no big deal.
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much as i love cammy for her don-quixote-like quest to help amiga, it's self-interested people that made the amiga what it was.
Jay miner did want to create one of the best personal computers of it's time, but he didn't do it for the "community." he did it because -->he<-- wanted to do it and because he would earn money by doing so. The reason he did it by no means lessens his contribution to the rest of us.
Same goes for the inventor of the vaccine, the airplane, the car, etc...
Hell, but for amigakit, i wouldn't have a replacement floppy for my a1200. Not to mention other items i've acquired over the years.
Did they hijack the thread? I suppose... Is this really worth all the hoopla it's generating? Not really.
Cammy? Keep fighting the good fight, but i don't think there's a reason why you can't do what you do and they can't do what they do. We can share this planet. ;)
spot on! +1
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Manu;
If someone wants to make a living out of something, be it niche or not, then streamlining seems like a smart thing to do.
Your post was very "glass half empty" tho.
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@manu
Basically you are right. The other App Store (the indiego thing) will be used as Package Manager. Similar to synaptic and Softwarecenter in ubuntu.
The indiego Store has been made to give developers full Control.
As soon they are activated they can do what they like until a user reports a Problem. This ensures technically that I can drive against a wall and the thing still works.
@amigakit
Someone reactivated my account here. Could you please explain me which sort of news I am allowed to post here? Aeros was to good and indiego store to competitive ?
Look I was open for colaboration and basically I am still but if I get the feel that this is not old amiga.org just because you dislike a news item an just remove it and on top without telling a reason I start to dislike this place : )
You are free to remove my account again, I won't post any news here anyway since it is a waste of time(because they will be removed after shown)
and I reach more via Facebook than you have registered users.
@all
I don't see it as hijacking what amigakit did. Many people will open this thread and may find out that amistore is coming. This fits to the topic. Forums are about information and better some advertising than no info at all.
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@ commodorejohn:
The problem isn't with Amigakit making profit, it's with Amigakit making everything about Amigakit. By all accounts they're a well-run business that supports an underserved community, which is great - however, that does not give them license to ignore basic forum etiquette (and doing so is bad PR, which they ought to understand.) Besides, if the OP was anything like Cammy's identically-titled thread over on Amibay, it didn't even mention anything about an app store, just discussed the recent increase in commercial publication of retro-homebrew titles and mused on possibilities to promote this kind of thing in the Amiga community. So it's not hard to see that as an obvious threadjack.
Except that Cammy made it about "profiteering" and "filling pockets." I'm not saying you're wrong, however, as I think what you say is true too, but... by calling them out and then "storming out of the room" didn't Cammy achieve the exactly that? Literally hand the hijack over to them? Here we are talking about Amigakit instead of Cammy's original intent. A little counter-productive, me thinks... probably would have been better just to ignore them and let the thread continue as it would have.
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Manu;
If someone wants to make a living out of something, be it niche or not, then streamlining seems like a smart thing to do.
Your post was very "glass half empty" tho.
You can believe it makes a difference if you like, I still think a App Store won't make a difference in our community. I developers would like to make money they could for starters make versions of their software that can run on all Amiga flavors and ask money for it , an App store won't make a big difference for them for supporting a small group of people. They could already cash in if they like without App Store.
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I'm guessing Cammy started a thread about Homebrew Amiga. She had said she'd like to start to offer some contributions. What happened to that thread? Was it Hi-jacked by Amiga Kit / A - Eon Moderators?
If so that's 2 threads in 2 days I was interested in that have been hijacked or shutdown by moderators. Are they so naïve as to not understand that the forum exist because of the Amiga community not because they bought it. I can see EAB usage increasing quickly.
To repeat a simple question. What happened to the original posts in the thread?
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Why would there be a refund?
Because that is common for app stores? Most for technical reasons only however google play has a two hour trial window.
https://support.google.com/googleplay/answer/134336?hl=en
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Terminills can have a sig that is Racist, sexist and promote illegal drug use but that's okay on Amiga org (Regardless of what the forum rules say). No offence Terminals, as I'm not Asian or a hooker. Nor a xtal meth user.
But promote something that might dilute profit of an untouchable and whammy, you're outa' here!
Am I missing something? What happened to Cammy's the original post? Did she change it, or was she asked to change it?
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Terminills can have a sig that is Racist, sexist and promote illegal drug use but that's okay on Amiga org (Regardless of what the forum rules say). No offence Terminals, as I'm not Asian or a hooker. Nor a xtal meth user.
But promote something that might dilute profit of an untouchable and whammy, you're outa' here!
LOL ! Are you serious?
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LOL ! Are you serious?
No I'm just making it all up.
Forum Rules:
No pornographic, sexually offensive, sexually explicit, or objectifying material.
Simple rule. Moderator's judgment applies here. We'd like for our readers to be able to read the forums at work and share with friends without fear of retribution
No posting about illegal activities
If you get drunk, that's fine. If you use drugs, that's fine. The moderators of this site aren't here to be your mother. We will not however tolerate excessive posting promoting drug use or other illegal activities. It's not funny, it's annoying, and it's unacceptable. Moderators are free to use their discretion up to and including banning the account of the person responsible.
But this is just a distraction from my question: What happened to Cammy's original post. Did she change it herself?
?
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Big deal, ever heard of humour ?
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No I'm just making it all up.
Forum Rules:
No pornographic, sexually offensive, sexually explicit, or objectifying material.
Simple rule. Moderator's judgment applies here. We'd like for our readers to be able to read the forums at work and share with friends without fear of retribution
No posting about illegal activities
If you get drunk, that's fine. If you use drugs, that's fine. The moderators of this site aren't here to be your mother. We will not however tolerate excessive posting promoting drug use or other illegal activities. It's not funny, it's annoying, and it's unacceptable. Moderators are free to use their discretion up to and including banning the account of the person responsible.
But this is just a distraction from my question: What happened to Cammy's original post. Did she change it herself?
?
"Last edited by Cammy; Yesterday at 01:36 PM.."
I would say yes. Otherwise there would be another name I think
She was obviously upset because Amigakit used the thread promoting their App Store including big pictures
Obviously after posting 7 and answer from amigakit in 8
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I've been around for long enough to know that a discussion with Cammy always ends up with tantrums and slamming of doors. Dreams alone go nowhere, you need cash and Amigakit brings that. Which is why Amigakit gets things done whilst other people have just... dreams.
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Except that Cammy made it about "profiteering" and "filling pockets." I'm not saying you're wrong, however, as I think what you say is true too, but... by calling them out and then "storming out of the room" didn't Cammy achieve the exactly that? Literally hand the hijack over to them? Here we are talking about Amigakit instead of Cammy's original intent. A little counter-productive, me thinks... probably would have been better just to ignore them and let the thread continue as it would have.
I'll let Cammy answer that; my only position here is that, from where I stand, Amigakit's behavior was rude and spotlight-hogging.
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Terminills can have a sig that is Racist, sexist and promote illegal drug use but that's okay on Amiga org (Regardless of what the forum rules say). No offence Terminals, as I'm not Asian or a hooker. Nor a xtal meth user.
But promote something that might dilute profit of an untouchable and whammy, you're outa' here!
Am I missing something? What happened to Cammy's the original post? Did she change it, or was she asked to change it?
It's actually a quote from this very forum. �� haywiredpc is the original poster of the comment iirc.
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What exactly is offensive about Terminills avatar? People really need to order Valium in bulk if this is what upsets you, lol.
Or was he the fellow that had the Choking Victim album cover as his avatar previously? I see nothing wrong with his current avatar, and I saw no issues with his last one.
It was the cover art of an album you can buy at Walmart - Choking Victim - No Gods, No Managers.
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Out of curiosity, have Cammy reposted her original post elsewhere?
I checked EAB, but nothing there at girst glance.
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Much as I love Cammy for her Don-Quixote-like quest to help Amiga, it's self-interested people that made the Amiga what it was.
Maybe it's just me, but from various interviews of Amiga people from back in the Commodore days as well as the "Deathbed Vigil" video, I rather get the picture of idealism; some very dedicated people working day and night (some times literally), sleeping under their desk in their office, working *way* beyond their *paid* office hours, just to create and develop the Amiga technology and making it what it became, *despite* those corporate guys in the management that only had money on their mind.
And the picture I get in my head when thinking about Amiga Inc (Fleecy and McEwen), Hyperion (Ben Hermans) and Eyetech (Alan Redhouse) is "self-interested" people *destroying* everything what Amiga once was, in their "self-interested" quest for milking the last drops out of the Amiga(TM) cow. But again, maybe that's just me?
IMHO *it wasn't* Carl Sassenrath, Dave Haynie, etc (that is: the first group I mentioned above) who killed the Commodore Amiga, it was the "money-guys". And also IMHO, the responsibility for the wrecking of whatever survived from Commodore falls heavy on the second group (Fleecy, McEwen, Ben Hermans, Alan Redhouse, etc, etc). And in my books, also the "second generation" of Amigaone (the "X1000") falls under the "wreck" label, and few blows to whatever future "Amiga(TM)" could have had, has been as devastating as the "X1000".
Also, I have very difficult to understand this "but they are doing the Amiga(TM) such a favor" attitude that some people have towards those "second group" of people. What favors really? Where have they taken the Amiga(TM) exactly, if not down in the ditch? And despite what many people seems to believe, they haven't done it out of charity. The dollar sign was the driving force, the "Amiga" was merely a means to an end. The "X1000" was no charity project either.
And speaking of that last one, and the one behind it (Matthew Leaman); it's rather interesting to see how he gradually has been involving in and gaining control over some key OS4 parts (drivers) in the absence of the unpaid Hyperion OS4 developers, he has gained control over the HW part ("A-eon"), he has control over the sales and distribution (Amigakit), recently he gained control over a major community site (Amiga.org, and control over the information/community sites has been essential in the past in selling OS4), and with his "app store" he is trying to get a cut on all the SW sales as well (not that there are any to mention, but anyway). Matthew Leaman/"AeonKit" is *becoming* Amiga(TM), a monopoly "from farm to the fork". Minus the (TM) part, but maybe that's just a question of time?
So I definitely understands Cammy's POV.
But at least there are alternatives. These days, the (TM) option isn't even the best option! If what you want is the blended "68k"/PPC option then MorphOS on Mac is a much better option than OS4/X1000/SAM with faster, cheaper HW that comes in all kinds of flavors from tiny footprint Mac Mini's to laptops, via full-blown desktop systems. And you don't even have to stick to PPC; if you are prepared to drop the special kind of Amiga compatibility that only OS4/MorphOS can bring to the "NG" world, then various of AROS flavors are an option as well. So you don't *have to* spend $3,000+ on special PPC locked-in stuff, just because that's what AeonKit has chosen to offer!
:)
Jay Miner did want to create one of the best personal computers of it's time, but he didn't do it for the "community." He did it because -->he<-- wanted to do it and because he would earn money by doing so.
There are many driving forces behind entrepreneurs and engineers going outside the box. Getting rich could be one, but it's probably less common than you believe, many studies on this subject suggest that this usually comes quite far down the list of motivating factors.
Do you have some kind of reference supporting your statement that Jay Miner's only (or at least primary) interest in his work on the Amiga was to get rich?
---
NOTE: I'm *not* against making profits, I'm not even against *profiteering*. I'm all for free market economy, all the way. I'm a capitalist at heart, not a communist. But try to look at things for what they are, don't try to twist things to yourself or others. Don't tell yourself that people are "being kind", "doing us a favor" or charity etc when they are in fact profiteering. Those things don't match. Besides, free market economy requires many options as well as transparency to work. Monopoly on all parts of the value-chain (as well as control over the information channels) looks more like communism than free market economy, *especially* when involving stupid decisions! :p
;)
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Out of curiosity, have Cammy reposted her original post elsewhere?
I checked EAB, but nothing there at girst glance.
Over on Amibay (http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?65456-Professionally-published-homebrew-games).
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Maybe it's just me, but from various interviews of Amiga people from back in the Commodore days as well as the "Deathbed Vigil" video, I rather get the picture of idealism; some very dedicated people working day and night (some times literally), sleeping under their desk in their office, working *way* beyond their *paid* office hours, just to create and develop the Amiga technology and making it what it became, *despite* those corporate guys in the management that only had money on their mind.
I don't get that impression at all. They were usually working day and night to get something working at all in some form, so that it could be used in a smoke and mirrors demonstration. They did the best that they could with the time and money they could get away with. Most computers were designed in a similar way.
The major problem that the Amiga came up against was the idealism of AAA. There were highly paid people working on those that never shipped a product, it is the reason why there was such a long time between the A500 launch and the A1200 launch. I'm not saying management were perfect, but it's difficult to manage cutting edge projects. Bad management and bad engineers is a lethal combination. A500 and A1200 were definitely not idealistic, they succeeded because of the compromises.
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They were usually working day and night to get something working at all in some form, so that it could be used in a smoke and mirrors demonstration.
I don't really see how that contradicts what I said above?
"EDanaII" claimed above that those who made Amiga great, did it out of self-interested monetary interest, and that this would also have been Jay Miner's reason to create Amiga in the first place. "it's self-interested people that made the Amiga what it was", "He did it because ... he would earn money by doing so". There is one thing to work for your daily bread, and who hasn't worked overtime a couple of times, especially towards a deadline, and who hasn't put up a smoke and mirrors demonstration at some point? It doesn't matter. The impression *I* have got from various interviews over the years, as well as the "Deathbed Vigil" video, rather suggest some passion for the work being done, for the technology they created, rather than promises of potential richness's. In other words, my view is that "the people who made Amiga great" worked with a monthly salary, they had their "daily bread" in exchange for their work, but the reason to why they worked so hard as they did wasn't for *profiteering* or potential richness's. The profiteering on Amiga(TM) by various involved individuals came *after* Commodore went bankrupt, and post Commodore I don't really see how *anyone* involved has helped "making the Amiga what it was" as EDanaII put it.
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Perhaps a little history of the conflict between Cammy and Amigakit may help explain why she got so emotional and left the forum.
Cammy has always found and supported smaller hardware inventors, manufacturers and sellers, as well as pointing out cheaper solutions direct from China being sold at a fraction of the cost of identical items being sold by Amigakit. She likes to help the little guy, both developers and consumers. This has annoyed Amigakit, who doesn't deal well with competition, especially when it shows how much overhead he has on some items.
Years pass and Cammy felt like she was bullied out of the community. She developed depression and stopped being productive. People eventually started to miss her and asked about her. I explained that she was in a very bad way and really needs some support, and for some reason this thread annoyed Amigakit and it was closed before Cammy could come back and reply herself. Others, who had expected such censorship already started another thread where they welcomed her back and convinced her to start posting again.
She has been wanting to talk about publishing homebrew Amiga games in boxes for collectors for a while, and so she spent a lot of time writing up the thread and finding heaps of example photos of boxed homebrew games. It wasn't about an app store at all, even though that is another idea Cammy had been discussing for years without much support.
So you can see why Amigakit barging in here and stomping on her dreams so soon after censoring a thread made by well-meaning community members to support her might upset her and drive her off.
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Perhaps a little history of the conflict between Cammy and Amigakit may help explain why she got so emotional and left the forum.
Cammy has always found and supported smaller hardware inventors, manufacturers and sellers, as well as pointing out cheaper solutions direct from China being sold at a fraction of the cost of identical items being sold by Amigakit. She likes to help the little guy, both developers and consumers. This has annoyed Amigakit, who doesn't deal well with competition, especially when it shows how much overhead he has on some items.
Years pass and Cammy felt like she was bullied out of the community. She developed depression and stopped being productive. People eventually started to miss her and asked about her. I explained that she was in a very bad way and really needs some support, and for some reason this thread annoyed Amigakit and it was closed before Cammy could come back and reply herself. Others, who had expected such censorship already started another thread where they welcomed her back and convinced her to start posting again.
She has been wanting to talk about publishing homebrew Amiga games in boxes for collectors for a while, and so she spent a lot of time writing up the thread and finding heaps of example photos of boxed homebrew games. It wasn't about an app store at all, even though that is another idea Cammy had been discussing for years without much support.
So you can see why Amigakit barging in here and stomping on her dreams so soon after censoring a thread made by well-meaning community members to support her might upset her and drive her off.
Got depression because of bullied out of the community? She should not take all that so personal or better keep off if it harms her.
Pascal has posted here that related news were not published or very soon removed again. I will certainly post news regarding Aros and the App Store here, then we will see if this has really become a A-eon/Amigakit marketing platform like some people think.
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@rebelCD32
I think there has been a few misunderstandings here and I want to set the record straight. That thread was closed from public consumption because a few concerned members here pointed out that it was a discussion of private personal matters without Cammy being present and volunteering that information. I agreed with that view point because I considered that I would not want details of my private life discussed or viewed by other people on a public forum without first giving my permission or providing that information first hand for all to read.
I hope this clarifies the intention behind the action.
I apologise if I took the thread off topic with my post. It won't happen again.
@Olafs3
To my knowledge Pascal has not had any news items removed. If a news item is not in a formal news format or more appropriately a forum discussion item (not news release worthy) then it will not get approved. There has been many AROS related threads approved for news though.
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@rebelCD32
I think there has been a few misunderstandings here and I want to set the record straight. That thread was closed from public consumption because a few concerned members here pointed out that it was a discussion of private personal matters without Cammy being present and volunteering that information. I agreed with that view point because I considered that I would not want details of my private life discussed or viewed by other people on a public forum without first giving my permission or providing that information first hand for all to read.
I hope this clarifies the intention behind the action.
I apologise if I took the thread off topic with my post. It won't happen again.
@Olafs3
To my knowledge Pascal has not had any news items removed. If a news item is not in a formal news format or more appropriately a forum discussion item (not news release worthy) then it will not get approved. There has been many AROS related threads approved for news though.
Then I do not understand why Pascal thinks this. Something must have happened, I do not believe he writes that without reason, expecially when he writes something was removed. Perhaps you can PM him and solve the misunderstanding.
And please, less aggressive marketing. We all know in the mean time that you work on your app store, it is your site, you can make banners here and you can make news items when you really have news, but please not everywhere and everytime. Cammy reacted expecially harsh on it, but I know of others who were also upset about it. You do no favor to you by it.
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The censorship and closing of threads around here is getting ridiculous.
Its becoming very clear that you can't be critical of certain parties or
offer opinions counter to their wishes without your thread getting edited, locked
or just straight deleted.
couple days ago...
Someone was selling some thin clients loaded with amiga forever.
That thread got closed down by amigakit. Why?
Its getting ridiculous around here.
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The censorship and closing of threads around here is getting ridiculous.
Its becoming very clear that you can't be critical of certain parties or
offer opinions counter to their wishes without your thread getting edited, locked
or just straight deleted.
couple days ago...
Someone was selling some thin clients loaded with amiga forever.
That thread got closed down by amigakit. Why?
Its getting ridiculous around here.
That is not completely true. In one of the ads he sold 1000 WHDLoad games preinstalled, that can indeed not be legal, then he used "Amiga" in his products, that certainly is problematic how we all know. If he used a fantasy name for the product, amigaforever (with license) preinstalled and no WHDLoad games it would have been ok. In none of the ads he mentioned Amigaforever, just that it includes the roms, I would have mentioned it when I include it with license.
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The censorship and closing of threads around here is getting ridiculous.
Its becoming very clear that you can't be critical of certain parties or
offer opinions counter to their wishes without your thread getting edited, locked
or just straight deleted.
couple days ago...
Someone was selling some thin clients loaded with amiga forever.
That thread got closed down by amigakit. Why?
Its getting ridiculous around here.
They were using trademarks belonging to Amiga Inc it was pretty obvious they hadn't licensed those marks. AmigaKit said the thread would be unlocked if the guy provided them with evidence of license for those marks. If Amigakit allowed the guy to continue using this site to promote an unlicensed product it could well end up with Amiga Inc taking legal action against the site.
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They were using trademarks belonging to Amiga Inc it was pretty obvious they hadn't licensed those marks. AmigaKit said the thread would be unlocked if the guy provided them with evidence of license for those marks. If Amigakit allowed the guy to continue using this site to promote an unlicensed product it could well end up with Amiga Inc taking legal action against the site.
Actually that would fall under CommodoreUSA, it was their product and their trademark. So Amiga Inc. really has nothing to do with it. If c64 wants to try and acquire a license for the Amiga Mini name I would encourage him to contact Jeremy or Erica Altman. Send me a personal e-mail and I will do my best to get you in contact with them and you guys can start the discussion.
Roberto J. Dohnert
Lead Developer/System Designer
Black Lab Linux
http://www.blacklablinux.org
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It wasn't "their" trademark IIRC, they licensed it and that doesn't give them (do they still exist as an entity and have the maintained payments for the use of the trademark?) the right to sub license it as far as I'm aware.
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@Darrin
Given Amiga.org site policy, I think it would be wise to discuss anything concerning CommodoreUSA in their own forum, off of the front page:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=69
#6
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@Darrin
Given Amiga.org site policy, I think it would be wise to discuss anything concerning CommodoreUSA in their own forum, off of the front page:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=69
#6
Yep, plus the whole subject has already been dissected a billion times.
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The censorship and closing of threads around here is getting ridiculous.
Its becoming very clear that you can't be critical of certain parties or
offer opinions counter to their wishes without your thread getting edited, locked
or just straight deleted.
couple days ago...
Someone was selling some thin clients loaded with amiga forever.
That thread got closed down by amigakit. Why?
Its getting ridiculous around here.
Exactly, but people dont see that for some extrange reason... its really weird the ridiculous censorship+happy users.
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It wasn't "their" trademark IIRC, they licensed it and that doesn't give them (do they still exist as an entity and have the maintained payments for the use of the trademark?) the right to sub license it as far as I'm aware.
Barry made a one time payment to Amiga Inc. and the license is secured until 2025. The only thing that they owe Amiga Inc. is royalty payments per-unit sold that is Amiga branded. The only way Amiga Inc can cut the agreement is if they pay the estate a pro-rated schedule fee and then and only then does Amiga Inc have the ability to claim those trademarks. According to CommodoreUSA there has been no contact from Amiga Inc since Barry's death. The agreement also allows Amiga Inc to co-promote but not sell any hardware labeled as like. CommodoreUSA is required though to enforce all trademarks according to their agreement and they do have the ability to sublicense.
I have talked to Jeremy and Erica collectively and separately about the license. CommodoreUSA is still a company, though currently inactive. They do pay their business taxes and all fees related to the company. The company is currently owned by both Jeremy and Erica. Dont like the deal? Thinks its a backwards deal? Talk to Bill McEwen, he made it. He signed it.
Roberto J. Dohnert
Lead Developer/System Designer
Black Lab Linux
http://www.blacklablinux.org
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Think this thread has run its course and is now way off topic.
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Think this thread has run its course and is now way off topic.
Yeah there should be a subforum dedicated to licensing. Seems there is way more "licenses" than actual products, AmigaKit being the exception of course...
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Barry made a one time payment to Amiga Inc. and the license is secured until 2025. The only thing that they owe Amiga Inc. is royalty payments per-unit sold that is Amiga branded. The only way Amiga Inc can cut the agreement is if they pay the estate a pro-rated schedule fee and then and only then does Amiga Inc have the ability to claim those trademarks. According to CommodoreUSA there has been no contact from Amiga Inc since Barry's death. The agreement also allows Amiga Inc to co-promote but not sell any hardware labeled as like. CommodoreUSA is required though to enforce all trademarks according to their agreement and they do have the ability to sublicense.
The CUSA license was in relation to Amiga branded hardware, initially all in ones and Barry said that it was later extended to all computer types. Regardless of this, Amiga Inc still owns the brand and trademarks and it is those marks this guy was infringing
I have talked to Jeremy and Erica collectively and separately about the license. CommodoreUSA is still a company, though currently inactive. They do pay their business taxes and all fees related to the company. The company is currently owned by both Jeremy and Erica. Dont like the deal? Thinks its a backwards deal? Talk to Bill McEwen, he made it. He signed it.
Roberto J. Dohnert
Lead Developer/System Designer
Black Lab Linux
http://www.blacklablinux.org
Amiga Inc didn't want to sell Amiga branded hardware, CUSA did. Seems a perfectly reasonable deal that suited both parties.
If they can indeed sub-license or transfer the license to another company it would be interesting to hear.
I guess this thread is where any further CUSA - Amiga INC discussion should take place.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37136&forum=44&start=240&viewmode=flat&order=0
Sorry Chris.
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The CUSA license was in relation to Amiga branded hardware, initially all in ones and Barry said that it was later extended to all computer types. Regardless of this, Amiga Inc still owns the brand and trademarks and it is those marks this guy was infringing
Amiga Inc didn't want to sell Amiga branded hardware, CUSA did. Seems a perfectly reasonable deal that suited both parties.
If they can indeed sub-license or transfer the license to another company it would be interesting to hear.
I guess this thread is where any further CUSA - Amiga INC discussion should take place.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=37136&forum=44&start=240&viewmode=flat&order=0
Sorry Chris.
No, he was infringing the "Amiga Mini" mark, which is a totally different mark and is owned by CUSA. This was as per the agreement Barry had with McEwen thats why the contract also called for CUSA to pursue any copyright or infringement claims.
Roberto J. Dohnert
Lead Developer/System Designer
Black Lab Linux
http://www.blacklablinux.org
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I rarely post these days, as I don't really have anything to contribute Amiga-wise, but I felt compelled to chip-in...
Over the past year or so, when I did happen to visit Amiga.org, many of the 'news' items appeared to have been little more that ads promoting certain commercial entities.
I consider myself fairly open-minded and unbiased, but it does seem that certain companies contributions to threads are often for the sole purpose of generating sales for themselves.
In the case of this thread, that's pretty much what appears to have happened again.
Just my $0.02...
Mike.
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@above
The closed thread. He called them AmigaMini thin client. Selling something without permission to use the name. I agree with that decision.
Other than that he put a lot of work into it and should be allowed to post here.
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I don't really see how that contradicts what I said above?
"I rather get the picture of idealism; some very dedicated people working day and night (some times literally), sleeping under their desk in their office, working *way* beyond their *paid* office hours, just to create and develop the Amiga technology and making it what it became, *despite* those corporate guys in the management that only had money on their mind."
The stories about sleeping under a desk at commodore were from the 8 bit days. When commodore bought amiga, they gave them plenty of time and money. The problems that hit later on were due to AAA, management should have canned that project before engineering wasted any money on it. The fallout from that caused upheaval which let to some big management mistakes, but it was falling apart by then anyway.
The bottom line is that no matter what Commodore had done, it couldn't have survived after 1994 because of the time and money wasted on AAA.
They needed chunky 8 & 16 bit pixels and 3d texture mapping hardware by 1992. Management wouldn't have had a clue, engineering should have pushed it.
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@above
It was really their PC division that was losing money. Amiga was still selling well in some places.
Plus there were hardly any machines available if you wanted one. Was that because the production was held up?
A1200 was out of date by 95-96 though.
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Well now this thread is getting interesting, with the comments about CUSA. Always enjoy hearing more about "the companies behind the scenes", etc.
Re: "Talk to Bill McEwen" - heh, if you hear from him, tell him I still want my t-shirt. :p
Re: Amiga app store. Is it going to run on classic systems? If not, I don't care, since not in the market for "next gen" at this time. Still nice to see some development, even if I miss the old days of getting cover disks and registering shareware, haha. App stores are "the way of the future", blah blah, and competition usually breeds stronger products. Still, would be nice to see folks in Amiga-land working together for once instead of always back-biting each other! :(
Also reminds me that I still need to order a copy of Tales of Gorluth! Tried out the demo on my A2000 last night (thanks for putting one on your website, btw, AmigaKit!). Minor brief graphic corruption but considering how hacked up my system is, it was perfectly playable. Gotta get that ordered soon. :)
Re: Cammy. IMHO her mental health issues or depression really don't have any business as forum gossup. I'm sure she's a nice girl but the way I see some comments obsessing over her on here are really sick. I get it, she's a girl and she uses an Amiga, one of only what? Two or three? But geeze. Get outside and meet some other people. :p
Now back to the popcorn! :D
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@amigakit
It was the news about aeros 3.9 which has been removed from front page.
And the one often or before this. At least the two last transmitted news items.
I must admit the 3.9 news item has been changed to a normal thread.
But before that it was a front page news item.
So I thought "oh censorship" and because I am a half Greek (maybe spartan roots) I was a bit pissy. So I asked to remove my account which happened for a few hours, after a day I found a comment i tried to answer and I found my account working again.
Do you see me a competition? Why? I have not enough time and energy for such things. I also don't need my name printed on anything, so that 2 parties works on the same thing and shoot out resources hurts. Is it the "not invented here syndrome"? Together we would be at least 2times faster. Now it happened : )
Maybe next time.
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@above
It was really their PC division that was losing money. Amiga was still selling well in some places.
Plus there were hardly any machines available if you wanted one. Was that because the production was held up?
A1200 was out of date by 95-96 though.
Commodore were told to pay out on the stupid xor patent suit and were prevented from importing anything until they did. I think they also had some fines for environmental issues at the old MOS factory.
The PlayStation dev kits were out at developers in 1993, nobody was going to keep working on Amiga games at that point.