Amiga.org
Coffee House => Coffee House Boards => CH / General => Topic started by: KennyR on February 16, 2004, 05:26:40 PM
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Most of you out there must have done one, right? Can anyone give me any advice in writing one?
I've tried the internet guides, and they suck. They just don't tell me what I want to know - in fact, every time I've managed to write something, one of the guides out there will contradict it. I have no problem with layout or any of that, and certainly no problem with the English.
It's the "selling yourself" part that I just can't do. It's like facing a brick wall. I have no idea what to put here. This is the part that is apparently most important in a CV - sure, I have an honours degree, but everyone else applying for jobs I'll be applying for will have the same.
I'm not really well suited to exaggerating my abilities, which are very few but very specialised. That's why I can't write this buzzword bullsh*t that employers want to hear. I don't work well in a team and can't pretend I do. I don't do anything dynamic or upwardly mobile. None of my interests or hobbies (which I don't have much of) will cast a very positive light on me, in fact they'll probably stereotype me.
So what do I do here? Do I lie my ass off and say I'm a fun person who's great to be around, hard working and devoted, I enjoy playing squash and working voluntarily for the samaritans? Or do I miss this part out completely?
I haven't got a clue how to get this out of the way! :pissed:
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:-?
You only have to write down wich schools and studies you have done. And your abilities. The "selling" part is that you musn't underestimate your abilities and write 'em down.
If you wish, I can send mine to you.
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speelgoedmannetje wrote:
You only have to write down wich schools and studies you have done. And your abilities. The "selling" part is that you musn't underestimate your abilities and write 'em down.
I wish...
No, it's industry standard that you have a few sentences about yourself not related to work or education. That's where I'm having the problems.
For a start, if I wrote everything I learned, the CV would be 10 pages long. If I wrote everything that I am not related to my education, then I can't muster a sentence. See my problem?
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It has to be one page, very very globally pinpointing what you're capable of. Maybe you've worked on a project or so, and then you can mention the name of that project.
Hell, no one can write down exactly what they've done.
btw, Kenny, do you have Asperger's syndrome? This problem is typically for people having Asperger. As well as they choose either chemistry or informatics.
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Write a few lines about your hard childhood (or something like that), and how it has made you a strong and flexible, yet cooperative person.
I has worked for me; I haven't been unemployed for more than two weeks since I was 16. :-D
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@KennyR
Just ask your mum or a close friend who knows what you're capable of for help. I don't know anything about you so I can't help you this way.
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speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Maybe you worked on a project or so, and then you can mention the name of that project.
Hell, no one can write down exactly what they've done.
I've done almost nothing outside education that would be of possible interest to an employer. I don't think "Has more comments on Amiga.org than anyone else" for instance would be of particular interest to anyone wanting to employ me.
btw, Kenny, do you have Asperger's syndrome? This problem is typically for people having Asperger. As well as they choose either chemistry or informatics.
Why, do you think I have difficulty communicating my opinions? :-D
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speel wrote:
Just ask your mum or a close friend who knows what you're capable of for help.
I have. Everyone I've asked so far (including whabang ;-))has suggested I lie.
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Just pay some professional CV making company to do it for you. A friend of mine said it was money well spent. He got his done by these people. (http://www.careerservices.co.uk/)
*edit*
Link fixed!
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KennyR wrote:
speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Maybe you worked on a project or so, and then you can mention the name of that project.
Hell, no one can write down exactly what they've done.
I've done almost nothing outside education that would be of possible interest to an employer. I don't think "Has more comments on Amiga.org than anyone else" for instance would be of particular interest to anyone wanting to employ me.
btw, Kenny, do you have Asperger's syndrome? This problem is typically for people having Asperger. As well as they choose either chemistry or informatics.
Why, do you think I have difficulty communicating my opinions? :-D
What the employer is interested in is your social capabilities. So when you're an active member of an club, like scouting or a sportclub or something like that, you can mention that in your CV.
And having Asperger's syndrome isn't only about communicating at all. Hell no, I'm diagnosed Asperger (that's why I recognised this problem) and am I not social here at Aorg?
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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
What the employer is interested in is your social capabilities. So when you're an active member of an club, like scouting or a sportclub or something like that, you can mention that in your CV.
I wasn't. I haven't been a member of any club or organisation. In fact I haven't been very active at all. ;-)
As for employers being interested in my social capabilities, the answer is: all are. For people who have lots of work experience, the personal section isn't very important. For graduates however, it's the only difference in a stack of degree-owning CVs some guy has to read through. We had this drummed into us at uni, and if you read any graduate CV guide, you'll see the same thing. There's no escaping it. I've got to prove somehow that I'm better than all the other graduates out there. Being 26 when most over graduates are 22, that has to be a very, very good trick.
And having Asperger's syndrome isn't only about communicating at all. Hell no, I'm diagnosed Asperger (that's why I recognised this problem) and am I not social here at Aorg?
I'm pretty sure I don't have Asperger's. In fact, I'm not even convinced a such a condition exists.
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@Mike_Amiga
Your link is broken. ;-)
Anyway, I did try to get my CV done professionally through the jobcentre. They sent gave me a questionaire to fill in.
It's easy up to when you get to:
2) Personal Profile
HOW DO YOU SEE YOURSELF?
In the following section please write down briefly what qualities you consider yourself to have, what achievements or successes you have attained, what your work outlook or ethics are and what your objectives or aims are for the future (work related). This will be the first section of your CV and a potential selling point to your prospective employer.
As soon as I read that, I'm stuck.
Doing a CV professionally just means doing the write-up in good English. I don't need help for that. It's content I need (unless someone's willing to make up convincing lies for me).
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You musn't pretend that you're better than any other. You must reveal your knowledge and interpretations in a short and convincing way (you must be convinced about yourself when you're writing it).
And Asperger's not existing? Once you meet one, you'll DEFINATELY notice otherwise. :lol:
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You must reveal your knowledge and interpretations in a short and convincing way (you must be convinced about yourself when you're writing it).
Then I'm f*cked, aren't I?
And Asperger's not existing once you meet one, you'll DEFINATELY notice otherwise.
Asperger's isn't universally accepted by psychologists. Some believe that most diagnoses are wrong, and actually shyness and social alienation are to blame for the symptoms. If you want social alienation there's no better way to go about it than being smarter than most of your peers, and as a result there is this mysticism around seemingly ultra-intelligent people who have social problems. More likely, they have social problems because they were isolated for being smart, and their answer to this is to hit the books instead of socialise and become even more smart and even more socially unskilled.
I for one don't believe in Asperger's. I think it's a case of nurture, not nature.
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KennyR wrote:
I wasn't. I haven't been a member of any club or organisation. In fact I haven't been very active at all. ;-)
Aren't you a member of AmigaZeux? Is that not an organisation (a computer club of sorts?). Don't you also program? There's something else you can shove on. Can you see where I'm going with this?
I'm pretty sure I don't have Asperger's. In fact, I'm not even convinced a such a condition exists.
eeek! Don't let Mrs. Uncharted hear you say that :-o The problem is that that term is often misused to descibe people who don't have a condition at all.
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KennyR wrote:
HOW DO YOU SEE YOURSELF?
In the following section please write down briefly what qualities you consider yourself to have, what achievements or successes you have attained, what your work outlook or ethics are and what your objectives or aims are for the future (work related). This will be the first section of your CV and a potential selling point to your prospective employer.[/b]
Yes, this is a sales-manager CV, not a chemistry-graduate CV :lol:
They only only only want to know in short what you're capable of and the studies you did (and most important, WHERE you did these studies). This isn't the appropriate CV for you.
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KennyR wrote:
Asperger's isn't universally accepted by psychologists. Some believe that most diagnoses are wrong, and actually shyness and social alienation are to blame for the symptoms. If you want social alienation there's no better way to go about it than being smarter than most of your peers, and as a result there is this mysticism around seemingly ultra-intelligent people who have social problems. More likely, they have social problems because they were isolated for being smart, and their answer to this is to hit the books instead of socialise and become even more smart and even more socially unskilled.
KennyR, you've got a chemistry graduate, not a psychological graduate. Sorry to violate Aorg's rules, but you do not have any clue what you're talking about.
I mean, there are serious issues considering Asperger's, both mental as well as physical. They can very exactly pinpoint such. It has nothing to do with nurturing.
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Yes, this is a sales-manager CV, not a chemistry-graduate CV
No, it's a generic CV. This is how they're all done here. If I wanted a job as a refuse collector I'd still have to answer this one.
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@uncharted
AmigaZeux is an IRC channel. It's also user-group of sorts, but I don't see how it puts a positive spin on me for the chemistry industry being part of it. I wish it did.
And no, I don't code. I never really could. Even after spending four years in a Computing course.
About aspergers, I think that has become a medical buzzword to be thrown around whenever some kid doesn't seem to conform to the norm. I'm always mistrustful of buzzwords, or of people who are quick to label non-conformance as "disease".
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@KennyR
First you ask us about CV's and I share my little experience with you and you disagree with it. Next you say a psychological disorder wich thousands of psychologists are researching simply does not exists.
Strange person you are indeed.
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No offence Eyso, but you've just told me what everyone else has - and what everyone says seems to always contradict what everyone else says. Nothing helps. I'm still sitting with a sterile list of qualifications with my name on it I call a CV, and no closer ever to finishing. I guess it is just my fault for being such a negative assh*le and I really am unemployable.
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You're no asshole, think about that first.
But I think it'd be indeed a good idea to change your negative attitude into a positive attitude. Especially when it comes to interviews. It'd be a good idea to be open minded too.
Rather see this as advice, not as criticism.
Maybe you should make that 10 papers sized report about yourself, and then make headlines and put those headlines in your CV.
Hope this helps.
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KennyR, stick your CV online, just snip off or fake unnecessary (for us to read) personal details.
Or even stick your CV online like I do anyway. The only thing I don't have on there is my address, mainly because I would be willing to move for the job anyway.
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KennyR wrote:
@uncharted
AmigaZeux is an IRC channel. It's also user-group of sorts, but I don't see how it puts a positive spin on me for the chemistry industry being part of it. I wish it did.
I thought it'd add an extra dimension, with these things you have to grab anything you can and hype it up.
And no, I don't code. I never really could. Even after spending four years in a Computing course.
My mistake, I must of got you mixed up with someone else.
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@Mikeymike
I can compress my CV into a few sentences, if you'd like.
Qualifications: BSc. (Hons) Chemistry with IT and Instrumentation at 2:2 grade, graduated in Autumn 2003. University Certificate in Computer Studies. 6 Highers (3 Cs, 4 Bs), 8 Standard Grades.
Schools: Wishaw High School (1990-1992), Clyde Valley High School (1992-1996), Glasgow Caledonian University (1996-2003).
Work History: none.
References/referees: none.
Personal details: I'm very literate and...*grind* *tax brain* *groan*...I give up.
That's basically it. On a sheet of A4 this looks unbelievably pathetic. If I leave out the personal details I might as well not even send it to anyone. It would be useless.
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@KennyR
Can you not write down in an informal way for yourself what you've been doing past years as a hobby (wich does not necesarily be important to your employer) and what you like and what you like to do in the future and so?
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Can you not write down in an informal way for yourself what you've been doing past years as a hobby (wich does not necesarily be important to your employer) and what you like and what you like to do in the future and so?
I can, but it's not flattering.
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Hobbies, interests, Any extra-curricular stuff you've done (Air/Army cadets that sort of thing).
If you're going for an IT job, talk about your skills. I have a 'summary of my skills' section of my CV that covers other little bits of info not covered by my employment history (without digressing).
Everyone has a time of their CV looking very small. Just be glad your CV isn't overly large and you're trying to work out what not to include. That's more difficult than making as much as possible out of very little, believe me :-)
Job hunting is hard work. One thing you should take into account for the future - don't burn bridges. Keep as many friendly acquaintances as possible, because they may be able to recommend you for a job in the future.
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My theory is not to lie, but be generous with the truth. Thats the best advice I can offer, my CV kinda sucks, but it landed me my current job...err career so it can't be all bad.
References/referees: none.
What do you mean none, what about a University professor/lecturer, close family? Have you had a job in the past? If so, why not get a reference from them, hell, give em my details, tell em you spent a year in Australia working for me :-D
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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Sorry to violate Aorg's rules, but you do not have any clue what you're talking about.
AAaaaaahhhhhh!!!! Anyone else get chills up their spine when he said that? I'm seeing DoomMasters everywhere! :lol:
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KennyR wrote:
Can you not write down in an informal way for yourself what you've been doing past years as a hobby (wich does not necesarily be important to your employer) and what you like and what you like to do in the future and so?
I can, but it's not flattering.
:roflmao:
The look on their face would be worth it though!
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2) Personal Profile
HOW DO YOU SEE YOURSELF?
KennyR, I've been on both sides of the interview table, I've seen a lot of CVs and I've never seen a section in one like that.
"Personal statements" are definitely optional extras as well.
If your CV still needs padding out when you're done with every other section, have a think about adding a personal statement of some sort.
Example:
CV of someone I know (http://silverwraith.com/resume.php)
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T_Bone wrote:
Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
Sorry to violate Aorg's rules, but you do not have any clue what you're talking about.
AAaaaaahhhhhh!!!! Anyone else get chills up their spine when he said that? I'm seeing DoomMasters everywhere! :lol:
:lol: I tried tried tried to make that sentence sound DIFFERENT than DoomMaster's
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@KennyR:
Perhaps you will find the following helpful. You may get ticked by the relative frankness of my reply: please keep in mind that I am only trying to be honest and supportive, even if that means giving you a figurative kick in the a**. Consider mine spanked afterwards, okay? :-))
The first I noticed about your post and subsequent replies is that you're too damn negative about yourself. Stop. That. Right. Now. If you are not happy with yourself, you will have to divulge in some pretty deep and brutally honest soul-searching. Otherwise that attitude will shine like a beacon in whatever text you manage to write, and earn you a rejection instead of an interview. Capitalize on your good qualities. You have an honours degree. You are (judging from the texts I've seen here) an eloquent fellow with a very definite opinion of your own. You are passionate about Amigas, and probably computers in general. You are specialized in some areas, much more so than any other person. (Yes, you are.) And so forth. You will feel silly writing the first raving paragraph about yourself, I know. You'll hate yourself for turning yourself into a marketable entity. Shoot the bastard responsible for forcing you to do that. But *after* you've landed the job, please.
Second issue: Stop trying to guess what the recruiter will think of your resume. The secret is that you can't guess, so stop wasting time and precious energy pondering the imponderable. It's not your job to supply the recruiter with the information he needs ro reject you, anyway. He needs to ferret that out in an interview, and preferably not even then.
Third point: if writing recruiter bullsh*t is not your thing, then don't write recruiter bullsh*t! That sounds like an open door, but it is forgotten by nearly everyone. BE YOURSELF. I can't stress that enough. Think of it this way: if you were the recruiter, being bombarded with hundreds of resumes, all spouting the feelgood nonsense. There's a few who do not. Who would you select for an interview ...? Good. (I got selected for an interview once because I had the audacity to respond to the question 'Do you object against partaking in a psychological assessment?' with 'Yes, I do, because I consider such tests to be pseudo-scientifical nonsense and thus a complete waste of time'.)
Point four: If you are so concerned about not being able to work good in a team, or not being mobile enough, are you applying to the right sort of job, then? Do you envisage being happy in a job where teamwork is essential? Or, alternatively, why don't you like teamwork? You know your strengths and weaknesses better than anyone else in the world. Accept that you are not the perfect person, and that it is extremely unlikely that your direct competitors for a job are too. Match the job to the person, and not the person to the job.
Five: you *have* weaknesses and bad character traits. So do I. So does everyone else. The trick is not hiding them. (Well, most of the time.) The trick is showing the recruiter you know what they are and how you deal with them. Take the teamwork issue: it is rare for people not working together in teams anymore. You don't like it, but what happens if you need to? How do you plan on dealing with it?
Six: Stop trying to comply with arbitrary resume-writing standards. They're all a waste of bandwidth. Make sure it holds your personal details, your education, previous working experiences, interests, extra-curricular activities and language skills (if you have any). Include single-line summary of job descriptions. Mention highlights (as in 'graduated with honours', 'wrote funky code for A.org, now used by thousands of people', etc.) or keywords which describe the job. Do not see it as bragging about yourself: you did do those things, did you not? Then they're just statements of fact. If the recruiter thinks you're a pompous a** by mentioning those, you don't want to work for that company anyway. The resume should whet the recruiter's appetite for more, therefore it is FORBIDDEN to use negative language. Write about what you did, not what you did *not* or failed to do.
I hope you found it useful.
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Why, do you think I have difficulty communicating my opinions?
Well... we all clealy know your opinion of one particular boring person who hangs around these parts... (not mentioning any names though! ;-) ).
Well, you can mention the fact that you are a lone crusader fighting the evils of smoking, alchohol, Microsoft, corporationism, capitalism, globalisation, Big Macs and America! If that doesn't work, accuse them of being conspirators - in cahoots with George Bush - and plotting against you!!
Perhaps this is a sign that one needs to get out more, perhaps join a sports team, or buy a bike, go travel or join a terror group...
- Mike
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@speelgoglygook...
What IS Asperger's anyway?!? I too have always hated writing up my resume and find it hard to sell myself.
- Mike
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@Kenny,
On my resume I put down some of my interests, such as audio hi-fi/home theater stuff, cars, travelling, etc. You can definetly put down some of your interests (computers being one of the obvious ones, politcs another, although I wouldn't dwell or even mention that unless you're in some debate club or something like that).
No need to be too defensive about all this, you just got out of uni, right? Having no life in Uni is normal (my sister who's in med has no life either, and that's normal). If anything it says you're responsible (that's a good thing) and comitted (that's another good thing).
Anyway, I still think it would do you some good to just go travelling. Go visit speel in the Netherlands (Amsterdam might do you some good ;-) ) or perhaps drink the town dry with Iama in Melbourne (I'd want that on DVD!!! ;-) ). You went to Uni to learn how to work, perhaps now what you need is to just kick back and learn how to live!
- Mike
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Hum,
I think i`ll butt in here...
Asperger's Syndrome is like a less severe case of what the `rain-man` had...
There is growing evidence that all the leading scientists , like Einstein, darwin, newton etc all had this syndrome...
A sure sign is that the subject doesn`t communicate, or register subtle facial emotions, or have hand eye coordination.
But counter balanced by a high degree of mathematical or musical or obsessive qualities...
I a few of my friends have this symdrom...
[extract from Dr Finley's case-book]
BTW inn your CV , have the most recent jobs at the top, and restrict the most important items to only one page, (first)
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>Cymric
Excellent post, says it as it should be.
As for my 2 (Euro) Cents:
A CV is all marketing, you have to think what they are looking for and produce it. Just don't lie, and as Cymeric say negative things are *forbidden*.
You sound like a geek, OK with 5000+ posts here you are a geek. That probably means you will find marketing difficult.
But, You can spin anything...
>I'm not really well suited to exaggerating my abilities, which are
>very few but very specialised.
That means you are probably very good at them.
Specialisation is not necessarily bad, it can earn you a heap of money.
>I don't work well in a team and can't pretend I do.
That means you are "independant and self motivated" (direct quote from my CV).
>None of my interests or hobbies (which I don't have much of) will cast
>a very positive light on me, in fact they'll probably stereotype me.
Everyone is different, what are they?
>If I wrote everything I learned, the CV would be 10 pages long.
But it's a good start from which you can cut things down.
>I've done almost nothing outside education that would be of
>possible interest to an employer.
You'd be surprised, actually I think you can tell a lot from peoples interests. They tell things about you.
You obviously are an Amiga fan, thats says something as well.
You are _still_ an Amiga fan which means persistence and fighting against adversity.
>I don't think "Has more comments on Amiga.org than anyone else"
"I am a highly active participant in on-line discussion boards"
"Well developed writing and debating skills"
Do you help people with problems? What do you discuss?
>Being 26 when most over graduates are 22, that has to be a very,
>very good trick.
What were you doing?
>HOW DO YOU SEE YOURSELF?
Hmm, I hate those as well...
What are your dreams? your ambitions?
>Asperger's isn't universally accepted by psychologists.
If you know that it says something, Do you like to learn, like to read?
They're both good.
>I guess it is just my fault for being such a negative assh*le and I
>really am unemployable.
You sound negative, You certainly lack confidence.
You may even be depressed (yes, really).
Get some "St Johns Wort" it's a mild anti-depressant, works wonders if you have the blues.
You really have to work on your confidence though, if you have a degree that alone means you have achieved something (I don't have any degree). If it's with honours it means you have done better than most people.
>References
Friends of the family, especially in high positions or officialdom (police etc).
Find a book on CVs and Interviews, they'll give you some pointers.
There is no right way or wrong way, so yes they all disagree.
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@KilKenny
I didn't suggest that you should lie, I simply think that you should list your qualities and explain, in short terms, how you aquired them.
If you can't, write your qualifications down and call it a list of merits! :-D
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KennyR wrote:
I have an honours degree, but everyone else applying for jobs I'll be applying for will have the same.
Thats true Kenny, how many graduated with you with your same degree?? You need to let them know why you should be one of the 4 or 5 new grads they should interview for the job openings they have. Your sample one below isnt likely to get you an interview unless noone else applies so it needs work.
I'm not really well suited to exaggerating my abilities, which are very few but very specialised. That's why I can't write this buzzword bullsh*t that employers want to hear. I don't work well in a team and can't pretend I do. I don't do anything dynamic or upwardly mobile. None of my interests or hobbies (which I don't have much of) will cast a very positive light on me, in fact they'll probably stereotype me.
First of all writing this buzzward b***S**T is most likely easier then any day you will ever have at work, so you need to get over it. Your negativity is likely to kill you in an interview as well. Teamwork is pretty important at most jobs, why don't you work well in teams??? What jobs are you applying too that you think won't require you to work in a team atmosphere. Interests and hobbies, people always underestimate the appeal of this section. In the past I have gotten interviews because I:
1) trained dolphins and the guy was a fan of flipper
2) Rock climbed and the interviewee was a spelunker
3) Scuba Dive (I get alot of hits on that one)
4) travel (they wanted someone with a passport to replace the guy who was afraid to fly)
5) Bowl (they wanted me for a league)
I'm not sure what interests or hobbies you have Kenny, but most non destructive ones can be spun positively.
When it comes to new grads, the personal section always is the tie breaker, you need to put something there, or be prepared to lose each tie.
Do I lie my ass off and say I'm a fun person who's great to be around, hard working and devoted, I enjoy playing squash and working voluntarily for the samaritans? Or do I miss this part out completely?
Kenny I guess my comment is that if you really believe that you are not fun to be around, not hard working and not devoted, why exactly do you think someone should hire you?? I mean do you really think your technical knowledge is so good that as a new hire you can be an asshole, slack off and not show up on days you dont feel like it???
Work History: none.
References/referees: none.
Personal details: I'm very literate and...*grind* *tax brain* *groan*...I give up.
I hope you are just playing negative here and this isnt really the truth. Have you really never had a job of any kind??? Thats a question thats going to get asked even if you clean up the rest and get an interview. Also more importantly, what do you mean by no references?? Are we talking noone will tell people that hiring you is a good idea?? Not a professor, a family member, a friend, anyone?? Almost any job is going to require a contact number to verify your place of residence etc, references none, is never a good idea. If you aren't sure who to use, list references available upon request, that way that section isnt a negative. Also I would go with I am very literate if you really think you must list it that way actually I would instead list reading as a hobby, knowing that they are going to ask you a favorite book. Be sure its one you have at least read. You arent' old enough to choose Sun Tzu or Machiavelli, fair warning from someone who is that old. Also I guess my other issue is, you graduated in Autumn of 2003, why exactly have you waited till now to work on your resume??? I had nine interviews and eight offers before I left school, I am sure someone is going to ask what you have been doing for the last 6 months.
-Tig
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Another thing - if you've ever done work experience, put it down! Employment history (work experience)!
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Wow, an AO thread is like a wine: the longer you leave it the better it gets! :-D Or is that 'whine'...? ;-) Never mind. Lots of good points from everyone, and I'll have to pick through it and paste bits in a text editor to reply the most pertitent points. Thanks everyone!
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You know what I did? I blu-tacked an A3 piece of paper on the wall and wrote the words, "I am..." at the top. Then I just brainstormed, with one-word qualities. Then when I had enough, I stuck them in sentences. It felt very positive! :-)
Although, having said that... Three months later I'm still unemployed. ;-)
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Hehe!
To be honest, contacts is what gives you a job in the end. :\
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@Cymric
Excellent points all round, and your post was everything I wanted to hear. If it was a kick in the ass, I didn't feel it - it made some things very clear. I needed people to tell me these things straight, and not just say "Well, it's easy, I did it, you can do it..."
@Glaucus
Having no life in Uni is normal (my sister who's in med has no life either, and that's normal). If anything it says you're responsible (that's a good thing) and comitted (that's another good thing).
See, it's this skill I lack totally - how to pluck positive things out of less positive. I'm just totally blind to that. Do you know of a list of these kind of things maybe someone has published on the internet? I know, I know...it's a long shot. But even a joke list would have some use. ;-)
@minator
You sound like a geek, OK with 5000+ posts here you are a geek. That probably means you will find marketing difficult.
Well, not your classical geek. :-P You won't find me rollplaying or being a guru in BSD/Linux or watching Star Trek and knowing every episode. I'm as focused as a geek though - which I suppose technically makes me one. ;-)
As for 5000 posts - it's amazing what you can do when you have no job.
>Being 26 when most over graduates are 22, that has to be a very,
>very good trick.
What were you doing?
Failing a computing degree. I did manage to get a fairly feeble HNC out of it, but that should have only taken one year and I stretched it out to three. I should have realised earlier that I just wasn't interested in it, but sh*t happens...
>None of my interests or hobbies (which I don't have much of) will cast
>a very positive light on me, in fact they'll probably stereotype me.
Everyone is different, what are they?
IRC.
You may even be depressed (yes, really).
Luckily, no. I know what it is to be depressed. I'm contented. Probably too contented, hence the problem working up any enthuisiasm for a change of life.
@Tigger
Teamwork is pretty important at most jobs, why don't you work well in teams???
I'm too independent and too opinionated, really. I don't have any leadership qualities but at the same time I don't take authority well. What has happened before with teamwork efforts in uni is that I haven't liked the direction the team was going, so went and did it differently myself, usually doubling effort all over the place.
Interests and hobbies, people always underestimate the appeal of this section. In the past I have gotten interviews because I: (lists 5 interesting and colourful hobbies)
I don't have anything near as eye-catching as hobbies. Basically, right now I spend most of my time on IRC and this forum, watching DVDs on rare occassions, and playing old Playstation games when I'm bored. I read, but not fiction. That's it.
Kenny I guess my comment is that if you really believe that you are not fun to be around, not hard working and not devoted, why exactly do you think someone should hire you??
Well, they wouldn't, and I wouldn't expect them to hire me if I went out and said it straight like that. That's why I don't. But anyone who hires me can expect to find me businesslike, detached, and not really interested in contributing anything outside of official work. Nor will I form anything but working relationships with anyone around me.
None of this is very positive. I'm still trying to find a way to make it sound positive. That's the hard part.
I mean do you really think your technical knowledge is so good that as a new hire you can be an asshole, slack off and not show up on days you dont feel like it???
Definitely not. But my reasons for wanting a job are to pay off student loans and get some money in. I don't have any major ambitions related to work or social life.
Have you really never had a job of any kind???
No. None whatsoever.
Also more importantly, what do you mean by no references??
I really don't know what to do about that. I've lost contact with my lecturers and couldn't ask to put them down as references by the time I realised I needed any. Family members aren't usable as references, either.
If you aren't sure who to use, list references available upon request, that way that section isnt a negative.
Thanks, that's a good idea. My bluff will be called if they request though (or I'll have to make an emergency trip to the uni to see what I can find, not much I guess).
Also I guess my other issue is, you graduated in Autumn of 2003, why exactly have you waited till now to work on your resume???
Well, I had to wait until almost November for the results, after missing a June exam due to illness. After that, I've applied for two jobs, and none have asked for a CV yet. They didn't ask for an interview either. I have a CV, but as you can see up in the thread, it's crap.
You also have to understand that, although Scotland pumps out graduates, it has very, very little work for them. Even less for the professional/scientific sector. I might see one job advertised every 2 weeks, if I'm very lucky. It will almost always require a minimum of years of experience.
I am sure someone is going to ask what you have been doing for the last 6 months.
I'll tell them what I told you: local jobs in this area are extremely hard to find, and I'm not willing to move country. After a year of this I'll have to chalk off my degree, it'll be useless by then.
@mikeymike
Another thing - if you've ever done work experience, put it down! Employment history (work experience)!
I don't. I've also done nothing extra-curricular remotely worth noting.
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KennyR wrote:
@mikeymike
Another thing - if you've ever done work experience, put it down! Employment history (work experience)!
I don't. I've also done nothing extra-curricular remotely worth noting.
:lol: even in Einstein's curriculum would've stated his job at the gasstation (if he had such a job)
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Einstein worked at a brewery in Australia! :-D
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Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
even in Einstein's curriculum would've stated his job at the gasstation (if he had such a job)
And mine would too, if I had anything to put. But I don't. Not a thing. Not a club, not an achievement, not a part time job. I didn't even deliver papers at 14. I even dodged Work Experience Week at school (it sucked anyway).
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KennyR wrote:
Speelgoedmannetje wrote:
even in Einstein's curriculum would've stated his job at the gasstation (if he had such a job)
And mine would too, if I had anything to put. But I don't. Not a thing. Not a club, not an achievement, not a part time job. I didn't even deliver papers at 14. I even dodged Work Experience Week at school (it sucked anyway).
:lol:
You are really not the only one I can assure you. I have hardly any experience at work wich is payed for either.
But you do have a chemistry degree and I think you're really REALLY underestimating that achievement.
Btw. I really can reccomend you to join a club where you think you'll be at the right place. It'll give you a hell of a lot experience in dealing with other humans as well as dealing with yourself at some points (tricky, the latter, I admit).
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See, it's this skill I lack totally - how to pluck positive things out of less positive.
Well I have some bad news for you. It's a skill you need or you'll never get anywhere (assuming you want a decent career that reflects the effort you put into your qualifications).
If you don't think positive you'll end up stuck in a dead-end job. As someone said earlier about attitude being easily derived from how a CV is written.
And don't think "well I'm #OOPS#ed", know that you have to do something about it. No ifs, no buts. Failure is not an option.
On the geek scale, I'm probably halfway up the scale. But one of the things I most want to keep improving are my people skills. It is so bloody important. And I'm speaking from experience. I'm not a 'veteran', but I've certainly had a few experiences that tell me this.
Failing a computing degree. I did manage to get a fairly feeble HNC out of it, but that should have only taken one year and I stretched it out to three. I should have realised earlier that I just wasn't interested in it, but sh*t happens...
Yeah, well, I would have probably screwed up a computing degree had I gone for it. My programming skills suck. But I still have a lot to offer in the field of computing.
I'm too independent and too opinionated, really. I don't have any leadership qualities but at the same time I don't take authority well.
Most of my old work friends might have described themselves like that, yet I've worked with them on projects before we became friends and worked together perfectly well. I like to think I'm independent, and I'm quite opinionated, but it is experience that showed me I can work in a group easily. Taking authority well is always a thorny issue. Annoying/crap authority no-one takes well. Decent forms of authority shouldn't even be noticed as such, as in, the authority figure(s) form (in a non-obstructive way) part of the machine that makes it better.
so went and did it differently myself, usually doubling effort all over the place.
People skills and maturity. If you're open to picking them up along the way, they're easy to pick up.
I don't have anything near as eye-catching as hobbies. Basically, right now I spend most of my time on IRC and this forum, watching DVDs on rare occassions, and playing old Playstation games when I'm bored. I read, but not fiction. That's it.
How about a bit of web design work on the side, maintaining your own website, helping out with bug tracking for a particular product, maintaining your own server, taking windy walks (:-)), GETTING OUT OF THE HOUSE ONCE IN A WHILE, cycling, just something! And if you still say no, then switch off your computer and GO SOMEWHERE!
No. None whatsoever.
Not even McDonalds?
I really don't know what to do about that. I've lost contact with my lecturers and couldn't ask to put them down as references by the time I realised I needed any. Family members aren't usable as references, either.
Say hello to the same situation as pretty much everyone else out of university. Now go call your lecturer(s) and ask them nicely! :-) Get someone you know, anyone, aunt, uncle, whomever to write a personal reference for you.
Thanks, that's a good idea. My bluff will be called if they request though (or I'll have to make an emergency trip to the uni to see what I can find, not much I guess).
I've never been asked for references. But contact details are a good thing to list.
I'll tell them what I told you: local jobs in this area are extremely hard to find, and I'm not willing to move country. After a year of this I'll have to chalk off my degree, it'll be useless by then.
No it won't, you're older than the green guys just out of uni. But the longer you spend out of work, the less attractive it'll look. And sodding move country if you can't find work. Unless you want to live on benefit for the rest of your life. And you'll find that to be effort well-wasted as well.
Definitely not. But my reasons for wanting a job are to pay off student loans and get some money in. I don't have any major ambitions related to work or social life.
Think up some decent reasons before going for interview. And work can be quite rewarding, as well as the money.
says me, self-employed :-)
I don't. I've also done nothing extra-curricular remotely worth noting.
What exactly have you done with your life?
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Mikeymike wrote:
If you don't think positive you'll end up stuck in a dead-end job. As someone said earlier about attitude being easily derived from how a CV is written.
Well, as long as it's well paid, I'm not sure that's a bad thing. I'm not ambitious - especially not in the field of careers. A lot of people view a career as a life. I view it as an annoying but necessary thing to have to do to be allowed to get on with my life as I see fit.
(I'm not stupid enough to tell employers that though, don't worry.)
Not even McDonalds?
No.
Now go call your lecturer(s) and ask them nicely! Get someone you know, anyone, aunt, uncle, whomever to write a personal reference for you.
Here's where the problems begin. Most of my lecturers left the university even before I took the final exam. (Through most of the final two years we got one rather overworked lecturer doing most stuff with us). If these lecturers don't answer to their email addresses, I really have no idea how to contact them.
And as I said, references from personal aquaintances are useless. That, at least, is something all CV writing guides seem to agree on.
But the longer you spend out of work, the less attractive it'll look. And sodding move country if you can't find work.
I've put a lot of thought into this over the last few months and I've decided I don't want to move. My family is here and I have really nothing without my family. So I'd rather throw my degree away than move further away than a few hours travel from them. *shrugs* That's just the way it has to be.
Unless you want to live on benefit for the rest of your life.
Nothing to do with want, I can't stay on benefit. Not unless I intentionally cripple myself for disability or something. Or win the lottery (which is unlikely because I don't buy tickets).
What exactly have you done with your life?
Nothing.
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KennyR wrote:
Nothing.
Well, on the upside, you've got a beast of a post-count!
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KennyR wrote:
What exactly have you done with your life?
Nothing.
Sorry KennyR, but you seem to me as a VERY educated person. Reading books, reading newspapers etcetera etcetera, it ALL counts.
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KennyR wrote:
Mikeymike wrote:
If you don't think positive you'll end up stuck in a dead-end job. As someone said earlier about attitude being easily derived from how a CV is written.
Well, as long as it's well paid, I'm not sure that's a bad thing.
Yeah, well wait till you get there. And assuming that a dead-end job is going to be a generally nice one is a bad assumption.
I'm not ambitious - especially not in the field of careers. A lot of people view a career as a life. I view it as an annoying but necessary thing to have to do to be allowed to get on with my life as I see fit.
That's because you have no experience of it. A career is a significant part of your life, and you'll want to enjoy a significant part of your life.
Not even McDonalds?
No.
Well first things first. Get yourself an unskilled job to put on your CV, then apply for skilled jobs. If you can't find yourself an unskilled job either, you'll have to move to another country.
Now go call your lecturer(s) and ask them nicely! Get someone you know, anyone, aunt, uncle, whomever to write a personal reference for you.
Here's where the problems begin. Most of my lecturers left the university even before I took the final exam. (Through most of the final two years we got one rather overworked lecturer doing most stuff with us). If these lecturers don't answer to their email addresses, I really have no idea how to contact them.
There's an interesting adventure for you.
And as I said, references from personal aquaintances are useless.
Says you, who hasn't ever applied for posting a job vacancy before :-)
That, at least, is something all CV writing guides seem to agree on.
They're wrong. A personal acquaintance might be an ex work colleague for example.
But the longer you spend out of work, the less attractive it'll look. And sodding move country if you can't find work.
I've put a lot of thought into this over the last few months and I've decided I don't want to move. My family is here and I have really nothing without my family.
Don't tell me: you went to university just around the corner from home. /me shakes head.
I really doubt any raw school/uni leaver is going to find decent work in Scotland. You can visit your family at weekends. All part of life.
Unless you want to live on benefit for the rest of your life.
Nothing to do with want, I can't stay on benefit. Not unless I intentionally cripple myself for disability or something. Or win the lottery (which is unlikely because I don't buy tickets).
You'd be surprised the number of people who can and do claim benefit for pretty much life.
What exactly have you done with your life?
Nothing.
Well I guess that's what it comes down to, what do you want your epitaph to be: Lazy bastard, who spent his life on the Internet, and didn't experience anything for himself.
Seriously reconsider how you're going to live your life before asking how to write a CV.
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Look KennyR... With your ability to look miserably upon life, I suggest you get something in customer services... maybe get a job at the Job Center?
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Look KennyR... With your ability to look miserably upon life, I suggest you get something in customer services... maybe get a job at the Job Center?
Yep, there are also plenty of telephone sales/customer service jobs to simply disappear into.
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Don't tell me: you went to university just around the corner from home. /me shakes head.
20 seconds walk from my house to the bus stop. Five minute wait. Twenty minute journey to uni. 30 seconds walk from bus stop to uni.
I didn't live at uni, or experience any part of uni life outside lessons (thankfully - I'm not into drink, whoring or getting stoned). I went to lectures, then went home afterwards. That's how it was.
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Bloodline wrote:
Look KennyR... With your ability to look miserably upon life, I suggest you get something in customer services... maybe get a job at the Job Center?
;-)
But seriously, I don't want any job that will force me to be near or to work with neds. That puts call centre and civil service right out. :-P
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Now go call your lecturer(s) and ask them nicely! Get someone you know, anyone, aunt, uncle, whomever to write a personal reference for you
There is no need to put references on your CV. References are usually (if ever) taken up after a successful interview and aren't used to determine whether to interview someone. A company that's recruiting doesn't spend more than 30 seconds scanning a CV, and couldn't even dial your reference up in that time! If they want references, they'll ask for them.
Many companies now refuse to ask or give references - the business of references has opened up a whole new legal minefield - for example, companies giving useless staff excelletn references to get rid of them and vice versa.
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But seriously, I don't want any job that will force me to be near or to work with neds.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean here, but pretty sure it won't get you an interview. I'm not sure if you meant nerd and mispelled it, in which case I have to point out chem majors are nerds, and not even cool nerds. Or really meant neds which the Oxford dictionary defines as a stupid or loutish boy or man (and which is currently a term for young people in scotland without lots of formal education according to the BBC). In that case there is no way for you to find a job like that. They'll be a secretary, a personal assistant, a temp, part of the cleaning crew, part of the maintence crew, etc. Your job is going to take up 1/3 of your life for the next 30+ years, you dont have to have a big career plan but you need to think a little about it. I think I want a well paying job that doesnt involve moving, or working with groups and has no neds working at the same location or working near it, is pretty much like saying you'd like to work on the moon in your own private moonbase or a racist wanting me to move him because he can't work "with them colored people". He works at McD's these days, "those colored people" as he called them still work for me.
-Tig
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Tigger wrote:
I'm not sure exactly what you mean here, but pretty sure it won't get you an interview. I'm not sure if you meant nerd and mispelled it, in which case I have to point out chem majors are nerds, and not even cool nerds. Or really meant neds which the Oxford dictionary defines as a stupid or loutish boy or man (and which is currently a term for young people in scotland without lots of formal education according to the BBC).
The dictionary is half-right. There's no real way for me to explain what neds/charvers are: they have no American counterpart (plus point for America). Basically they're people who have chosen a very antisocial way of life. It's not really a matter of education or income. It's definitely not one of race or class. They just...are neds. They respect nothing and the only reward you'll get for being near them is abuse, intimidation, and derision.
Ah...you'd have to meet them and be annoyed or threatened by them before you could understand fully. But you are right - it's hard going to get away from them without moving. Even harder to find a well paid job without moving. But there are certain jobs that will put me right in their way (a prime example is teaching), and those are the types I wish to avoid. They destroy people's self-esteem and they're not doing it to mine.
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neds/charvers
As I understand it, they are what we called peasants, proles and commoners.
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As I understand it, they are what we called peasants, proles and commoners.
No, I'm a peasant. I come from a working class family with the same income as most as them. The difference is I don't form into gangs to break into people's sheds to get money for dope, or spit out of buses, or shout at people on the street for no reason. They took that choice, and the least we can do is give them a label for it, no?
Edit: or they do this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3495901.stm). This man probably made the mistake of answering back their shouting.
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The dictionary is half-right. There's no real way for me to explain what neds/charvers are:
I thought the word 'charver' was unique to Geordieland. In Leeds they call them (I think) 'doods'.
Anyway, it's easy to recognise them:
Hair:
Male: Far too much hair gel, always combed foreward, the fringe is almost glued to the forward.
Female: lots of hairspray, and a razor-sharp-sticking-out fringe. Often died blonde or highlights.
Clothes:
Both: Bomber jackets, usually made by Kappa. These are huge puffy jackets, often bright red, or navy blue.
Sports shops such as JD Sports are the main source of charver clothes. Things like stripey jumpers and quite often coodiroy pants - you'll know what I mean if you look in JD sports. Oh - and the old man flat cap is quite popular in charver males too.
Jewellery: MASSES of it, in male and females. Gold soverign rings for both sexes. Females will have plenty of tacky ear rings.
Accents: This may be another north-east thing, but charvers don't use the local (Geordie) accent! They have a strange kind of twisted-words voice that's difficult to explain.
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KennyR wrote:
I didn't live at uni, or experience any part of uni life outside lessons (thankfully - I'm not into drink, whoring or getting stoned). I went to lectures, then went home afterwards. That's how it was.
You sound so much like me it's scary. I did the same at Uniy but I travelled 3 hours a day and eventually dropped out. Totally missed the real Uniy experience.
I didn't have my first "proper" job until I was 28. before that I sat at home writing software hoping to sell it, Commodore going bust pretty much killed that off, moving to BeOS didn't exactly help.
Then I got a job in Holland, I didn't really want to move at first but it was good money so I went. It takes months to really learn if you like it in a foreign country or not, as for family, there's always the phone and plane flights are cheap these days. Actually being away from home makes you communicate _more_. Working in an office with other people will make you open up, I don't want to go back to working alone ever again.
I've been through a few jobs and did well in some, badly in others. It's all part of the process of life, you learn a lot of skills you need this way. I also started going out, and you get to speak to people that way, even if it's just the bar staff!
They destroy people's self-esteem and they're not doing it to mine.
Quite honestly, from what I've been reading you don't appear to have any to destroy!
As for your "Neds", everywhere has them - in Northern Ireland we'd call them "hoods" (the nasty ones anyway) they actually look up to the terrorists, and sometimes join them...
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Don't worry. I'm also crap at writing CVs :-D
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BTW KennyR that CV company just took my friends CV and redid it, so yes they will just make up the lies or highlight your strengths (depends how you se it) for you.
MY PERSONAL PROFILE
I consider myself to be a well adjusted individual with a friendly and helpful personality. Able to work to set targets and deadlines using my own initiative or within a team. Capable of communicating creative ideas to others, reliable, self-motivated and proficient in the use of many desktop publishing, word processing and graphics packages.
(I'm doomed!)
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Wow, finally I got something together. Most of it I was able to cobble together using advice in this thread and example CVs. I finally got the glazing by having it taken to a professional and written up, although most of the text is still mine! My lying gland is still hurting from overuse. ;-)
Again big thanks to everyone who contributed. For the morbidly curious, you can see it here (http://immolation.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/kjr_cv.rtf). You may have to shift-click. Note that you'll need a way of reading RTF - not a problem on a PC or Linux, and I suggest EvenMore on Amiga/MOS.
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Whoever admins that server seriously needs to learn how to configure a http server properly :-)
about the CV - overuse of italics don't you think? I'd at least make something not italic :-)
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mikeymike wrote:
Whoever admins that server seriously needs to learn how to configure a http server properly
Mea culpa. Its my webspace but I have a htdaccess file to configure it. Downloading rtf as octet streams should work now (fingers crossed).
about the CV - overuse of italics don't you think? I'd at least make something not italic
I thought so too, actually. I think it makes it hard to read, especially on-screen.
But it was a pro who wrote it up, and she's done hundreds if not thousands of CVs. I think I'll leave it alone for now...