Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: cgutjahr on August 21, 2014, 12:06:44 AM
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amiga-news.de is running a poll to see what people think about PPC emulation in WinUAE. Several hundred Germans have already voted, now it's time for the rest of the world to chime in: Would you buy OS4 to run it on WinUAE? Do you think this development is going to hurt AmigaOS?
http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2014-08-00040-EN.html
(I submitted this as a news item, but the thread was closed immediately. I accidentally used the wrong link in the news item and I can't fix it anymore since the thread's been closed already. So here it is again - sorry for the mess)
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I would really like to see that happen, already have OS 4.0 and 4.1, tried to run both of them on my Amiga 1200. OS 4.1 works but the 240 MHz, ppc just runs sloooowww. Went back to OS 3.9. I think this would bring a lot of attention to WinUAE, (oh, I just said something nasty). Anyhow lets keep the boing ball bouncing.
smerf
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We always seem to be a couple of steps behind at amiga.org. PPC emulation (although beta at the moment) has already happened.
Yes it does run 4.1, just slowly at the moment. It's been a long time coming and I'm stoked that it's finally happening.
Could mean the end of expensive hardware, must sell my Pegasos quickly ;-)
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Yes, I will buy the 'Classic' edition of AmigaOS 4.1, as a matter of fact I'm about to buy it in a couple of the days...
Voted BTW :D
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http://www.winuae.net/files/b/winuae_2900b11.zip
Give it a go :-)
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How the heck does more users hurt the platform??? This should have been done years ago. They choose not to with project Moana being ditched instead they chose the path of stupid high hardware prices and killed the NG momentum before it began back in 2002/2003
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Yes, ja, da, oui, si, a thousand times (x1000) yes. The emulation passes the speed threshold of 200MHz and I'm in.
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PPC emulation in WinUAE is great. It will open up alot of new opportunities for AmigaOS, And should bring in new users / bring back old users that have left.
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It'd be a curiosity for me - in the same way as running GEOS 128 under WinVICE :-)
Nice to tinker with, but nothing more.
I do run WinUAE quite a bit though, mainly to play some of my fave old amiga games.
Mike.
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I don't agree with the above comment. A lot of people who use UAE are just freeloaders and don't want to come back to the platform.
I do want to try OS4 but would not use it everday.
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Not that I care but is classic the same as the NG versions ?
Will this not hurt the work people like treveor dick or doing on providing hardware ?
I know most people hate the hardware prices for os4 but at least people are trying.
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Freeloaders? Good Lord, when did people in this scene get so pedantic and hostile. Maybe I'm of a different mindset - personally I think *anyone* that runs *any* Amiga variant, whether it be emulation or something like Amithlon, AROS on commodity hardware, MOS on PPC Mac's, OS4 on legacy PPC kitted HW or OS4 on NG systems, or the "good 'ole boys" that like the real deal, the old and original C= era hardware, well I think we should be thankful that 20 years after the demise of Commodore, we should feel blessed for even having a scene of any kind. Many other vintage computer scenes have dried up and died entirely, we are lucky to have the community we have, quite honestly.
If PPC UAE support turns out to run well, it can only help what's left of the scene to experience a side of the Amiga hobby that perhaps they haven't had a chance to due to the high cost of entry in regards to the PPC based NG OS4 machines. After all, some guy might but OS4 for WinUAE and end up buying a SAM or X*000 machine, and quite frankly, the more the merrier. I only hope UAE supports MOS in the future as well.
UAE is a free product. ROM's and the OS are not free. However, I am not delusional enough to believe that even a major portion of UAE users are running bought and paid for ROM and OS copies. That being said, many of these people have likely owned 10 Amiga's in their years and thus paid for such items ten fold. I will readily admit that when I got back into the Amiga almost 7 years ago, I found UAE first, so perhaps I can be classed as a freeloader as well. I had 20 year old OS disks from my last legacy Amiga sitting here with absolutely no way of imaging them, and I simply grabbed ROM dumps and install adf's off Pirate Bay. I paid for them many times over in my years and lost zero sleep "pirating" them via a torrent file. No guilt in the least. I pay for what I use without exception, and I paid for the original OS many times over.
I shudder to think that Hyperion would ever "lock" OS4 down so it wouldn't run on UAE at all. They have made many a perceived blunder over the years, but I'd be shocked if they shut the door on UAE users wanting to buy OS4. A sale is a sale, after all.
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I could not find an an option in the poll that suits me:
I believe that PPC emulation in WinUAE will benefit OS4 (increased sales and user base) but will heavily damage AmigaOne PPC hardware vendors and their partners (A-EON, ACube and Amigakit). And this last issue is not a bad thing, as they will certainly have to redesign their business propositions in this respect (get competitive or die).
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@above
Yeah, The hardware should be at sam460 prices.
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I could not find an an option in the poll that suits me:
I believe that PPC emulation in WinUAE will benefit OS4 (increased sales and user base) but will heavily damage AmigaOne PPC hardware vendors and their partners (A-EON, ACube and Amigakit). And this last issue is not a bad thing, as they will certainly have to redesign their business propositions in this respect (get competitive or die).
Regarding Acube you are wrong if you think they would propably lower prices for their hardware because of PPC emulation
Look at their page:
http://www.acube-systems.biz/index.php?page=company
their slogan is: "Power for your embedded ideas" and then look at their partners. Hyperion certainly is neither the biggest nor most important one. They propably earn their money selling PPC hardware for industrial purposes with Linux (and other OSs) installed or do you think that the handful amiga fans make their living? So why should they lower prices then?
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It's a sign of the apocalypse.
Seriously, if I can run OS 4.x well enough on it I'm more than happy to plunk down a hundred euros to play with it. I can't see this being anything but a good thing.
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It's a sign of the apocalypse.
No, it isn't. It's been explained to me that the universe is just fine until I get my MythTV box working the way I want it. And that hasn't come out of the garage since we moved. So we're all safe. Be happy and all that...
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I could not find an an option in the poll that suits me:
I believe that PPC emulation in WinUAE will benefit OS4 (increased sales and user base) but will heavily damage AmigaOne PPC hardware vendors and their partners (A-EON, ACube and Amigakit). And this last issue is not a bad thing, as they will certainly have to redesign their business propositions in this respect (get competitive or die).
+1 to that.
I'm hoping that Cloanto have the right to distribute OS4 and 4.1 with Amiga Forever.
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I don't agree with the above comment. A lot of people who use UAE are just freeloaders and don't want to come back to the platform.
Holy sh1t! People are still so bloody hostile in this microscopic community and as for free loading. I bet you or any one else does not use emulators with roms but instead just go around shining your halos and walking on water.
I've not been on this site in ages and its sad how the same nonsense is so alive and well (like time has stood still) but you think new users would buy a rip off Amiga x1000 for £2125 ?
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I bought a copy of Amiga OS 4 Classic the minute I heard this was happening. I've been dying to run OS 4 but could never swing the cost for the expensive hardware. I'm more than happy to pay for the OS and I know there are others who would as well. I really hope the developers embrace this move.
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I shudder to think that Hyperion would ever "lock" OS4 down so it wouldn't run on UAE at all. They have made many a perceived blunder over the years, but I'd be shocked if they shut the door on UAE users wanting to buy OS4. A sale is a sale, after all.
At the moment OS4 is an exclusive club that you have to pay a premium to join, like owning a Lamborghini.
If everyone had a Lamborghini then it wouldn't be so special and people would just scrap them because of the fuel cost and the impracticality of parking, breakdowns and catching fire.
Hyperion is unlikely to be able to prevent people from running OS4 on UAE, but UAE is likely to make it less desirable to run OS4 on real hardware and without the real hardware then why bother with OS4.
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At the moment OS4 is an exclusive club that you have to pay a premium to join, like owning a Lamborghini.
If everyone had a Lamborghini then it wouldn't be so special and people would just scrap them because of the fuel cost and the impracticality of parking, breakdowns and catching fire.
Hyperion is unlikely to be able to prevent people from running OS4 on UAE, but UAE is likely to make it less desirable to run OS4 on real hardware and without the real hardware then why bother with OS4.
AmigaOS 4.1.x is so not a Lamborghini. The reason a Lamborghini is so coveted by motorists the world over is because it is a finely honed specimen of a sports car, everything about it has the look and feel of performance engineering.
Worst analogy ever.
And even if it were, taking a Lamborghini for a test drive is nowhere near the same thing as owning one, and if I don't end up buying a Lamborghini afterwards then I was probably never going to buy it in the first place.
This seems to be a very personal thing for you.
If the only reason to buy into AmigaOS 4.1.x is to feel superior to others than you are missing the point of an operating system; The more people that run it the better.
But sleep soundly, because:
- OS 4.1 for Classic is a lesser version of OS 4.1
- It is not actively developed and there are no published plans to add the features of OS 4.2 (not that there are many published plans)
- It will be a long time before the emulation catches up to the speed of a SAM 440/460 so it's not breaking any speed records anytime soon
And if it makes you feel better we'll form our own club. We'll call it 'The Inclusive AmigaOS 4 for Classic Club'. Our club motto will be "We'll never be as good as the real AmigaOS 4 users, and that's OK."
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I see no need for me to run Amiga OS4 for classic.
My PC does everything modern that i need and WinUAE already runs the older Amiga OS's for all my nostalgic needs.
Would would i gain in running OS4 for classic?
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I think that some people are greatly overestimating the possible negative impact that WinUAE + decent PowerPC emulation could have. When, in the history of computing, has the existence of an emulator ever killed off the sales of hardware or an OS? I certainly can't think of any examples.
People will still want to run AmigaOS 4.x on actual hardware. In the meantime, WinUAE could give them a cheaper entry to try it out (only need to buy the OS).
Hans
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I bought Amiga hardware from Amikit, Elbox, and Individual (Jens) after not using Amigas for about 20+ years and stumbling on WinUAE/Amiga Forever. This has potential to fuel interest in NG Amiga technology, even if only on the software side.
And I've never understood the hostility in this community that some people have.
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I would like to try OS 4.x on WIN UAE, but only if speeds were great for daily use (comparable to hardware). Question, would modern OS 4 software run on OS 4 classic edition? I would totally turn my headless laptop that I painted red into a NG Amiga.
Edit: Looking at the comments, I'll back off for now, until it is fast compared to modern hardware.
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Dr chef
Yes you will be able to run os4 software. Its just a matter of speed optimizations so maybe in a year we will have real cyberstorm speed which aint bad. Especially with pc gfx and power behind it.
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I don't think much of it. I propably never will try it because i hate PPC so much I even hate PPC emulation. :D Why? Because it has helped kill amiga being the dead end that it is. It made new amiga systems slow and over-expensive. Thanks.
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I think that some people are greatly overestimating the possible negative impact that WinUAE + decent PowerPC emulation could have. When, in the history of computing, has the existence of an emulator ever killed off the sales of hardware or an OS? I certainly can't think of any examples.
WinUAE pretty much killed Amiga accelerator market. Suddenly it was not required to invest thousands to get decently fast Amiga.
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WinUAE pretty much killed Amiga accelerator market. Suddenly it was not required to invest thousands to get decently fast Amiga.
You mean without UAE people would have bought the very expensive accellerators? I can only speak for myself, without UAE and only have the choice to buy extremely expensive hardware I would not have started again.
And the accellerators would have been too expensive, amiga user always had to pay more for the same than on other platforms
you could say the non-working "milk a shrinking market" strategy
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WinUAE pretty much killed Amiga accelerator market. Suddenly it was not required to invest thousands to get decently fast Amiga.
I guess Amiga (accelerator) market was already dead by the time WinUAE reached this speed.
Usually, emulators have no impact since new machines that are many times faster get released and new software get written for it.
The problem with the Amiga is that the new machines aren't that fast, and people tend to not update (because it's expensive, there are little to no software written for it).
In this case, emulation could be seen as a problem. But seriously: there are so few people using Amiga today, does it really make a difference ?
Why is everything so closed on the Amiga ? Every OS but AROS aren't free/opened, no sources are available (except some parts like USB stack,... which developers no longer maintain). Even free stuff gets some kind of software lock (see MorphOS PUP free edition that requires a registration that locks it to the PowerUP board) or licence lock (cannot be used with emulators). What's the point ?
Having some open mindedness would benefit to everyone... It's 2014 and there's maybe less than a thousand users in the world, and a lot less developers. Why not concentrate on doing some fun work and stop closing code, seeing threats in the other "camp", locking apps to hardware, writing some useless licence... ? What are the stakes?
Anything released today is a good thing. So is WinUAE PPC support.
My two cents...
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I guess Amiga (accelerator) market was already dead by the time WinUAE reached this speed.
Usually, emulators have no impact since new machines that are many times faster get released and new software get written for it.
The problem with the Amiga is that the new machines aren't that fast, and people tend to not update (because it's expensive, there are little to no software written for it).
In this case, emulation could be seen as a problem. But seriously: there are so few people using Amiga today, does it really make a difference ?
he talked about the past...
But even if, the main problem for a long time regarding commercial projects is that you cannot earn money or better you can earn more on other platforms. When I digged around in aminet for my distribution it became obvious that there was a lot of 68k activity till around 1997/1998 then it went down considerably. The last updates for commercial software were about 2000. If activity went down 1997/1998 I assume that this was both the case for users and developers. So in this atmosphere of a rapidly shrinking user base no commercial orientated developer or company would invest time and money and the "hobby" projects that are only based on idealism often fail without any hope to make money with it. Developing is time consuming and on hardware even expensive.
Short conclusion: I think WinUAE has saved the remainders, the damage was already there
Why is all closed? Why are some people bashing each other or talking bad about others instead of working together? I do not know. And I think it will not change. The platforms are like trains that are driving in different directions so it is best to decide for one and jump on the waggon.
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WinUAE pretty much killed Amiga accelerator market. Suddenly it was not required to invest thousands to get decently fast Amiga.
Then the remaining Amiga companies at the time should have took advantage of that opportunity instead of being greedy sods by keeping hardware prices so high whilst in the real computing world, hardware prices was falling.
Amiga companies (and the vocal Amiga users who've gone along with the Amiga companies nonsense) have caused irreparable damage and you would think after all these years, the remaining users would want the Amiga to try and get at least 0.0000000000001% of a comeback but no. Closed minded nonsense still exists.
The Amiga X1000 costs £2125 (+ £12.90 p&p ) in 2014, which is utter madness to the rest of the computing world but in the Amiga bubble. That is gloriously priced and the Amiga will make a massive comeback.
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Short conclusion: I think WinUAE has saved the remainders, the damage was already there
I didnt mean impact caused by WinUAE was bad. It just meant that you didnt have to buy expensive accelerator boards to get 68060 speeds and true colour graphics. This changed Amiga market even though it was in death spiral already.
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WinUAE pretty much killed Amiga accelerator market. Suddenly it was not required to invest thousands to get decently fast Amiga.
I don't think so. The accelerator market had already declined beforehand. Accelerators were still being bought even after WinUAE became faster than the real thing. I highly doubt that there was a big drop off at that point.
Hans
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amiga-news.de is running a poll to see what people think about PPC emulation in WinUAE. Several hundred Germans have already voted, now it's time for the rest of the world to chime in: Would you buy OS4 to run it on WinUAE? Do you think this development is going to hurt AmigaOS?
http://www.amiga-news.de/en/news/AN-2014-08-00040-EN.html
(I submitted this as a news item, but the thread was closed immediately. I accidentally used the wrong link in the news item and I can't fix it anymore since the thread's been closed already. So here it is again - sorry for the mess)
You forgot an option. "It's bad because Hyperion(Ben) can no longer use "losses" for tax purposes if they actually show a profit." =\
Just my opinion though :P
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You forgot an option. "It's bad because Hyperion(Ben) can no longer use "losses" for tax purposes if they actually show a profit." =\
Just my opinion though :P
That would answer quiet a number of questions I have had about Hyperion...
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I'd happily buy an accelerator for my real amigas if one was made that was less than the $1500+ the classic ones go for at this time. That being said I'm a realist and understand that the small demand and resulting the small run size will probably prevent that from ever happening.
I'd buy new hardware Amiga OS 4 specific hardware if it was cheaper as well but that's also unlikely.
WinUAE is probably my only chance at running OS 4.
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I
I'd buy new hardware Amiga OS 4 specific hardware if it was cheaper as well but that's also unlikely.
WinUAE is probably my only chance at running OS 4.
The former aint gonna happen so you may be stuck with the latter. /me hugs his Pegasos2
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Peg2 was by no means cheap when new, either.
All the OS4 hardware options have always been high priced compared to things like MOS systems, which can pretty much be found for free or darned cheap.
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Peg2 was by no means cheap when new, either.
All the OS4 hardware options have always been high priced compared to things like MOS systems, which can pretty much be found for free or darned cheap.
I think that $399 is cheap. Well i got mine for free because I worked for Genesi. :) And at that time a G4 1ghz was still competitive with other cpus at the time.
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I see no need for me to run Amiga OS4 for classic.
My PC does everything modern that i need and WinUAE already runs the older Amiga OS's for all my nostalgic needs.
Would would i gain in running OS4 for classic?
This...
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I just did a torrent search for Os4.1 Sure enough it is available. There are a lot of freeloaders.
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I just did a torrent search for Os4.1 Sure enough it is available. There are a lot of freeloaders.
The only one I can see is an old one for the SAM440, so I don't think anyone has put the required classic version of 4.1 up as a torrent...
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I just did a torrent search for Os4.1 Sure enough it is available. There are a lot of freeloaders.
I just bought 4.1 Classic from AmigaKit. I haven't tried it yet but I'll show my support that way when I am able too. I always have with "pretty much every version" of Amiga OS that I have purchased over the years.
I am enjoying the "Amiga platform" whatever you believe it to be (both Hardware and Software) see another flurry of activity. Even if it turns out to be a brief one.