Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: ElPolloDiabl on April 16, 2014, 08:34:36 AM
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The Natami project started and stopped again.
Link:
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php (http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php)
Sounds like he has given up for good this time. Please don't say anything nasty yet just in case he is testing us.
There is also AROS68k news there.
edit:
It is actually a different system that was cancelled. Natami is still where it was.
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Natami is a great idea, after looking at a few photos of it, it seemed it was nearing some release point.
Then nothing for a long time, but I'm not disappointed. With most things Amiga I don't hold my breath anymore. If it does appear then that's great, but will just read things these days and go oh that interesting and carry on.
FPGA Acrade is were my money will most likely go. I'd love to buy it with the 060 daughter board all in one hit, but don't think that's going to be possible.
I could see it as a replacement for my A1200 one day.
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Very sad news...
My advice to the team is : find the a lot of money before starting anything...
I wrote a blog on simple hardware Amiga Classics hacks during about 3 years with zero money, and I cannot do anything seriously...
Money is a locomotive, despite you are agree or not : it's like that in our dying world...
;-(
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Always said if I wont lotto (11mil this weekend) I'd like to invest in something Amiga. But winning is the hard part :-/
There are some very rich people in the world, worth billions. I'm sure a couple of million would go unnoticed to them, just they have no interest.
I could do with a million for my personal life ;-)
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The Natami project started and stopped again.
Link:
http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php (http://www.natami.net/knowledge.php)
Sounds like he has given up for good this time. Please don't say anything nasty yet just in case he is testing us.
There is also AROS68k news there.
but this is a completely different project that just happens to have been discussed on natami forum, right? i just guess as i dont visit there and i wonder why anyone still would. also no wonder someone has abandoned a barely started project, that happens all the time. only projects that have a slight chance are open community efforts.
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Always said if I wont lotto (11mil this weekend) I'd like to invest in something Amiga. But winning is the hard part :-/
There are some very rich people in the world, worth billions. I'm sure a couple of million would go unnoticed to them, just they have no interest.
I could do with a million for my personal life ;-)
Quite the contrary I believe. Most wealthy people (who have generated their own wealth - not just "won" it) are wealthy because they value a $...or a million$'s. They don't just "not care where it goes" :D
In saying that I agree that for the most part "they have no interest", as you say. If only there was a wealthy potential investor who could see a modern day rebirth of the Amiga, and who is interested in doing so, and actually DOES IT. Kind of like Trevor Dickinson - he is a business person and an enthusiast. He has his plan, and he is on the way - and I wish him every success. BUT, I don't believe his product is a "modern" system with the essence of the original Amiga. On the other hand, if there was someone who's business plan was to build a modern Amiga in the form of the Natami, and executed that plan, that would probably have a better chance of success. And by success I mean to make Amiga P O P U L A R again :D
Thing is, given there are now 85 trillion variations of the Amiga, with it's carcass spread across all kinds of interpretations, it would be extremely difficult to bring it all together to monopolise on one particular variation of it - and at the same time legally limit every other incarnation possible. Which to me would be necessary to succeed.
The Natami IS the S*&T!
I for one would abso-friggin-lutely love to see the Natami finished!
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Re: the super aga part. This has already been done by rtg. Why do we need something Amiga pure?
He has some good design goals. Others are a bit off, including the expected retail sales.
edit:
The project that was cancelled was different system. An attempt at a more powerful system. so Natami is still in Prototype phase, not cancelled.
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Re: the super aga part. This has already been done by rtg. Why do we need something Amiga pure?
Because it's not backwards hardware compatible. (Whether that's practical or not is another thing).
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The NatAmi Forums are still used? Crikey. They've been a massive source of hot air for years.
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The main problem with Natami project has always been that it was too ambitious.
The whole point behind and FPGA design is that it can be updated after it's been released.
1) Design a board with a big fat FPGA chip and a reasonable amount of memory
2) Replicate the standard chipset and a basic 68k chip.
3) Open Source the cores
4) Sell the board with a nice little custom retro case
5) Get clever people to enhance the core for free and add all the funky features
6) Drink lots of beer to celebrate
Easy :)
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The main problem with Natami project has always been that it was too ambitious.
Yeah I agree. People get in their heads that on their own they are going to take on Arm/Motorola/Intel/IBM if they spend months designing something sort of like Amiga but different.
If you just work on making something Amiga compatible first then the project will go much better.
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The Super AGA, which was a dumb idea to begin with and we would have seen a dozen - at best, programs ever take use of it, was too lofty to begin with. Anyone that lusted over the Natami hardware spec thinking that suddenly a limited run, homebrew piece of Amiga hardware would suddenly get coders like Psygnosis back on the platform recoding their golden era gems in "SOOPER AGA!" was a fool. Twenty years too late. I can install a 'hemi in my VW Beetle, but it's still a bloody Beetle in the end :)
Super AGA would have been relegated to crap like a more modern port of Tuxcart for Natami from OS4/MOS and nothing more. No one would have suddenly started started coding barn burning, must have games that would have all the CoD junkies a twitching.
The worst thing about the "NG" Amiga scene is the "port" cruft/creep you get. Terrible ports of Tuxcart and other silly Linux games that try to show off some astounding power, but they really just show off that a crappy game can be "ported" to a virtually redundant hobby system. Natami wouldn't have been any different. If you code "Amiga" programs that are just dodgy Linux ports depending on all sorts of other crap installed to get working, I loathe you :)
I'm sure someone could invent a toaster that gives me a foot massage, but no one is because it's stupid, lol.
Had they used their skills within a narrower scope and just made a really well made FPGA AGA/RTG machine, it would have been finished and we'd all own one by now.
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well, right..
the comunity should concentrate on first things.
instead of superaga a proper aga reimplementation in fpga and beyond that cgx/p96 compatible graphics like it apparently is taking shape on fpga arcade.
in parallel development of accelerating solutions, be it fpga or emulation on faster cpus as cards for existing systems (might be easier for the time being except for bus interface) or standalone.
softwarewise a reimplemented open source system like aros68k plus individual libraries reimplemented and improved in asm as it is happening already.
proceeding like that there is some actual progress..
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The main problem with Natami project has always been that it was too ambitious.
Yep, just like AROS was pie-in-the-sky until they came to their senses and targeted 3.1. Get that done and you can add new stuff.
I'm still sitting pretty and waiting for the FPGAArcade (and it is getting so close you can practically smell it), and I hope we will see some thriving developments there.
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Natami did have a phased approach to development. The first prototype "Natami 30" was an add on for a modified C-One, their was a Zorro graphics card for the 3D core, Natami LX prototype, Natami MX prototype and two 68060 expansion boards.
Not enhancing the graphics to some degree would have been crazy when the idea of Natami was to provide a practical system for use as a main computer in the modern world (not outperforming the latest PCs just capable of doing the basics). There were some crazy performance claims being made by an individual member of the team for the soft core 68K processor and graphics, apparently without consultation with hardware designer Thomas Hirsch and this I believe led to the break-up of the team. With nothing more heard of the hardware in the intervening years I can only assume Thomas lost interest in the project. It's a shame as the hardware looked very promising and a lot of money and effort must have gone into the project. The "project" by Harold Neufeldt also made some very dubious claims and without anything like the tangible evidence of it being realistic that the Natami hardware had.
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What a damned shame. I would still spend money on the Natami if it came out today. Oh well, more "vapor" in the Amiga world, we shouldn't all act so surprised. :angry:
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Quite the contrary I believe. Most wealthy people (who have generated their own wealth - not just "won" it) are wealthy because they value a $...or a million$'s. They don't just "not care where it goes" :D
That's very true about people who have made the money on their own, but I'm sure there are a few people who have fallen into money "won it" somehow. ;-)
"they have no interest", as you say. If only there was a wealthy potential investor who could see a modern day rebirth of the Amiga, and who is interested in doing so, and actually DOES IT. Kind of like Trevor Dickinson
This is the hard part getting them interested again, when I mention the Amiga at work I get weird looks. I also notice the Amiga is often removed from computer history. So not sure why the Amiga is getting such a bad rep.
Thing is, given there are now 85 trillion variations of the Amiga, with it's carcass spread across all kinds of interpretations, it would be extremely difficult to bring it all together to monopolise on one particular variation of it - and at the same time legally limit every other incarnation possible. Which to me would be necessary to succeed.
This is the other thing that is hard, no one path. Should I spend money on this or that, in the end I just spent it on my classic was easier. But with the FPGA arcade I'm think that might make a nice replacement for my A1200.
The Natami IS the S*&T!
I for one would abso-friggin-lutely love to see the Natami finished!
It was so close, there is hardware somewhere after viewing pictures of it. But like other projects that I've got excited about the hardware is sitting on some bench somewhere unreleased. A lot like Elbox's PPC project, pictures were shown then nothing :-/
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Always said if I wont lotto (11mil this weekend) I'd like to invest in something Amiga. But winning is the hard part :-/
There are some very rich people in the world, worth billions. I'm sure a couple of million would go unnoticed to them, just they have no interest.
I could do with a million for my personal life ;-)
Alternatively as illegal scumbag tactics by Microsoft and Nintendo US were used in the 80s and 90s to create their monopolies if the US courts had any bollox they would have sued them until bankrupt and given the funds to Commodore (Microsoft), Sega (Nintendo) and Atari (BOTH Microsoft and Nintendo).
As a Commodore, Atari AND Sega fanatic the world could not have turned out a single bit worse than it has for home computing and video games hardware!
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As a Commodore, Atari AND Sega fanatic the world could not have turned out a single bit worse than it has for home computing and video games hardware!
I must admit I miss the platform wars, or going around to a friends place and he would have something different to try/play on.
Although after awhile it was A500's everywhere ;-)
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Must say or admit I have not been following amiga very close but as soon as I found out about "NatAMI" I wanted to know more as I found this project extremely interesting. But I see this project have run into some problems think it is very sad that a project like this cannot solve any problems . I'm still a huge amiga fan and still is still got my amiga and if a project like natami could produce a consumer product that we could buy. I would have bought it on day one. After what I have seen of the work they have done I can say that I want this hardware I am prepared to buy it ASAP!. So please anyone into this natami project please solve your problems, If money is the big problem then do a crowd founding. I love to do my part to get this project off and into the market.
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There are a couple FPGA projects in the works. Minimig 2, the FPGA Replay.
The FPGA Replay is fast with the 060 and it will be available soon.
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There are great FPGA systems on the market.
SOCKIT for example:
* An FPGA with over 100,000 LE
* 512 KB build in 2nd Level cache
* 2 Gigabyte of fast DDR3 Memory
* Ethernet
* USB
* VGA out
* Audio out
Such board would give a perfect new AMIGA.
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There are great FPGA systems on the market.
SOCKIT for example:
* An FPGA with over 100,000 LE
* 512 KB build in 2nd Level cache
* 2 Gigabyte of fast DDR3 Memory
* Ethernet
* USB
* VGA out
* Audio out
Such board would give a perfect new AMIGA.
I hope natami can sort out any problems they have or release a realistic system ECS!. But will look at SOCKIT when it is availible.
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There are great FPGA systems on the market.
SOCKIT for example:
* An FPGA with over 100,000 LE
Such board would give a perfect new AMIGA.
The problem is not the hardware - making boards is cheap nowadays. The problem is the huge amount of work required to target the IP to a specific platform.
FPGAArcade Replay boards have been around for a couple of years now with developers and it's got to a good coherent firmware/library state. Much of the same code is used to power Vic20/C64/Amiga/whatever cores on the same platform.
I designed the board to be good enough, then we have been focusing on the important stuff ever since.
/MikeJ
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But will look at SOCKIT when it is availible.
The point is that socket _is_ available.
Its been sold hundreds of times already.
Halve a year ago the Sockit was on promotion for $99.
Now its back to its normal price of $299.
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The problem is the huge amount of work required to target the IP to a specific platform.
I agree that targeting new stuff like the USB chip requires new logic.
And getting a driver for the new logic will take time.
But the original AMIGA stuff like the
68K CPU, the AMIGA chipset, the planes, Sprites, Blitter, Copper, even RTG chipset
is more or less just drag and drop.
The keypoint is the memory bus.
If the design uses a standard ALTERA bus like AVALON,
then compiling the desing for the SOCKIT is really only drag and drop.
Also the VGA out chips are usally very easy to address
and adapting to another chip is not rocket science..
If the design uses a non standard bus - then you need to write a little bus bridge.
This is work of days but thats it then.
I compiled the CPu for the Sockit board - this was very easy.
You only need to create the proper PLL, and can compile it already.
Its work for 20 minutes including the compile time.
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The point is that socket _is_ available.
Its been sold hundreds of times already.
Halve a year ago the Sockit was on promotion for $99.
Now its back to its normal price of $299.
I am convinced
http://youtu.be/Ug4_yh3Q288
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I am convinced
http://youtu.be/Ug4_yh3Q288
oh, it's much better now ;)
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oh, it's much better now ;)
Better! ?
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Tell me does AMIGA still have a future?
What do you think?
Does selling 100 or 500 devices give a future?
Or would it make sense to aim for something like high end AMIGA for $99?
Such a system could be sold ten thousands of times.
Would ten thousand new AMIGAs give the platform more future?
Why are developers working on FPGA stuff like this?
Are they in for making a quick dollar on this?
Or do they want to revive the platform,
Do they believe with selling 500 pieces they can revive the AMIGA?
Or would opening their sources to allow production of 10,000 units be better?
If people would free their sources would this be better for the AMIGA?
Would the people do this or would they ask for something like bountie to do this?
Lets say you have something like a AGA++ chipset and a 200 MIPS 68K CPU.
Would these FPGA source alone make the AMIGA revive -
or would you need a strong company which is able to pump in real money
to push the devices on every XMAS tree?
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For me at least, it has to be open source. We have about 20 developers working on different platforms, but a common infrastructure to ease programming, fd/hd access etc.
It'll all be pushed to the website shortly, once it is stable enough - and we are nearly there.
I'm selling the hardware, so in that sense it's commercial, but everything else is for fun so to speak.
I developed the hardware platform I wanted to write stuff on ;)
/Mike
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What can we do to get these natami guys to work on the project again.
send them a subscription to pizza's for a year. ? (maybe not a good idea...)
what can we do to get this project off again. ?
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Natami had a lot of pressure to come out with super aa and performance. It was really a hobby project, if he was able complete it at the time it would have been great.
That was at the start of people getting into retro systems.
Why ask for an Amiga revival? Amiga would only fall again. A small amount of ex-users will come back steadily though.
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Tell me does AMIGA still have a future?
What do you think?
Does selling 100 or 500 devices give a future?
Or would it make sense to aim for something like high end AMIGA for $99?
Such a system could be sold ten thousands of times.
Would ten thousand new AMIGAs give the platform more future?
Why are developers working on FPGA stuff like this?
Are they in for making a quick dollar on this?
Or do they want to revive the platform,
Do they believe with selling 500 pieces they can revive the AMIGA?
Or would opening their sources to allow production of 10,000 units be better?
If people would free their sources would this be better for the AMIGA?
Would the people do this or would they ask for something like bountie to do this?
Lets say you have something like a AGA++ chipset and a 200 MIPS 68K CPU.
Would these FPGA source alone make the AMIGA revive -
or would you need a strong company which is able to pump in real money
to push the devices on every XMAS tree?
simply set up a poll, outlining the project and count the potential customers against the active users here, this way you might get an average interest coefficient to multiply by the overall population of amiga scene. ;)
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Hmm, maybe Trevor could help :) Have you contacted him ?
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I came back after over 10 years of no use whatsoever. I want more Amiga now more than I did then. It's just a shame that hardware expansions (beyond an 030) are prohibitively expensive and all second hand.
I'm just one person though....
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Hardware is irrelevant today. It's best to work on AROS first. Turn 68K into a Virtual Machine environment that can interact with AROS/any OS on any hardware. Then you can have cross-platform compatibility on real and "virtual" hardware. Software drives hardware, not the other way around.
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What can we do to get these natami guys to work on the project again.
send them a subscription to pizza's for a year. ? (maybe not a good idea...)
what can we do to get this project off again. ?
Maybe remind them of what Dave Haynie himself thought about Natami?
"Actually, of all the recent hardware things I've seen in the post-Amiga world, this is the only one I see as being of much value. Or, in my usual terms, "It's cool". For one, you can claim real Amiga cred there -- doing things the Amiga way. You're not just a PC with a PowerPC CPU and some VGA chip trying to make the claim of being an Amiga. I was a little skeptical when I first heard about it, but I'm totally convinced at this point: if you want a new Amiga, this is the true way. It's also sustainable... you can make as many of these as there's demand for."
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The Super AGA, which was a dumb idea to begin with
Super AGA that is AGA with >2mb chip ram, 1080p resolution and beyond makes sense. At that point adding 8/16/24/32bit chunky modes also makes sense as drag-able screens are then trivial.
Applications don't have to hit the hardware registers for it to be more logical to do it this way, applications that support RTG will benefit too.
Natami failed because everybody's ego went into overdrive. The CPU for example has spun off and is attempting to become a player in the embedded market.
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Why not just put an S3 DX in there? Put one of the DSPs we were suppose to have as well.
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Now I am asking myself. A-EON should help the NatAmi team. They even making a new soundcard for Zorro Amiga's. Maybe the interest is there?
Trevor? How about this? Amiga is surviving but the time is taking ages. Can we see a movement now?
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Now I am asking myself. A-EON should help the NatAmi team. They even making a new soundcard for Zorro Amiga's. Maybe the interest is there?
Trevor? How about this? Amiga is surviving but the time is taking ages. Can we see a movement now?
That would be fantastic if they did that, but dont think that would happen becouse then they would sell less AOS4 and AmigaOne.
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That would be fantastic if they did that, but dont think that would happen becouse then they would sell less AOS4 and AmigaOne.
Don't be so sure! Trevor opened up the X1000 to all Amiga-like OSs at AmiWest 2012. The MorphOS team and AROS teams just haven't taken him up on the offer.
I was in the audience that day and I wouldn't be surprised if Trevor wouldn't buy himself an FPGA Arcade Replay board and a few of the Apollo Team projects (meaning the remnant of team NatAmi). After all, Trevor owns a MiniMig already! In fact, he said he owns at least one of every model of Amiga to date!
I was one of the members of the NatAmi team though I am not currently a member of Team Apollo. I would gladly buy either an FPGA Arcade Replay board or a Sockit board with Amiga core if I had the money to do so.
One interesting possibility is the Apollo Team's proposed accelerator card since I could buy that for less than an '060 accelerator for my A1200 and get better performance. Since it would have access to the existing AGA chipset that way, I could use it out of the box and not have to wait for both the chipset core and the processor core to get the bugs worked out.
Also interesting, the FPGA Arcade Replay board is slated to support an '060 daughterboard. If Gunnar (BigGun) and Mike (mikej) would be willing to cooperate, a harness to use to use the Apollo Team's Altera Cyclone 5 FPGA-based accelerator in the place of the '060 daughterboard for the FPGA Arcade would allow the CPU core to grow in a separate FPGA from the next-generation AGA compatible core on the Replay board.
Since Individual Computers is the only RoHS compliant A1200 trapdoor slot socket supplier, it may depend on how cooperative Jens Schönfeld wants to be. If he makes a big stink about the card-slot adapter for the A1200 it might be more practical just to do a Replay board harness instead!
So many possibilities! One bad thing about the Sockit board is that VGA is analog only. The NatAmi prototypes and Replay board both support digital DVI as well as the possibility of analog DVI to VGA adapters in the same port. Also, the proposed Apollo Team accelerator is supposed to have HDMI which is strictly digital and supports both audio and video signals on the same (smaller) port simultaneously (though DVI to HDMI converters drop the analog and audio signals in the port adapters).
I can't wait to see what comes of this anyway!
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I was one of the members of the NatAmi team though I am not currently a member of Team Apollo. I would gladly buy either an FPGA Arcade Replay board or a Sockit board with Amiga core if I had the money to do so.
When comes to natami that is the most interesting project if you ask me. Sad you have not setup the team in a way that if one team member goes away the team will continue the work, since the work and project is incredible important for the future of amiga.
I have tried to register on the natami forum but even the activation mail is not sent out, sad.
Hope we get some good news from natami team.
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When comes to natami that is the most interesting project if you ask me. Sad you have not setup the team in a way that if one team member goes away the team will continue the work, since the work and project is incredible important for the future of amiga.
I have tried to register on the natami forum but even the activation mail is not sent out, sad.
Hope we get some good news from natami team.
The remainders of the Natami-Team is basically the team behind apollo core, then one of the former members is now creating a new core on its own (you can read discussions on amigacoding.de), I was member of the team too and have concentrated on Aros Vision after the Natami project ended, some others like Samurai Crow are around and he has said he would help me to improve Aros 68k to make it a perfect replacement for 3.1.).
Natami was a combination of custom hardware and specific core done by one developer and this developer had all rights to it. After this developer officially left I had a couple of email contacts with him and I asked him if he could think about opensourcing it, a couple of weeks later there was the last thing I officially read from him that he would continue with his project on his own with a new name and that was the last thing I have heard of it. Nobody of the team could do anything about it. Today the hardware would be very very old and the Natami board (as every custom solution) would have been very expensive if ever finished. What Gunnar now plans is much promising, affordable and based on new hardware. I was very interested in Natami at that time (in fact it was the reason why I started to be interested in Amiga again) but 2014 I think Natami is past. How Gunnar said, we have everything available now, ECS and AGA implementations (Minimig and the core of FPGA Arcade), free OS and Roms (Aros 68k) and also components that were done at first for Natami (Apollo core and SAGA) so if the persons responsible act together something good could come out of it.
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Why not just put an S3 DX in there? Put one of the DSPs we were suppose to have as well.
The DSPs that were going to be used in the A3000+ aren't that good now, so it's a lot of effort to do that when we don't have any software for it.
Adding an S3 in as well as the AGA output on one video output is a bit of a kludge, I'd rather see AGA improved, which would likely take up less gates.
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Just when I thought the stupid Natami stuff stopped yet another thread.
ITS V A P O U R
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Just when I thought the stupid Natami stuff stopped yet another thread.
ITS V A P O U R
That's right! I can't believe that people are still paying attention to it.
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That's right! I can't believe that people are still paying attention to it.
If the natami team could update the site and if it is dead, say it. Post something in the news section so people like me who have not been in the amiga community for many years could find out and stop thinking that someone finally have made some new amiga hardware worth spending money on.
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That would be fantastic if they did that, but don't think that would happen becouse then they would sell less AOS4 and AmigaOne.
This two things are not the same products, the NetAmi has no appeal for me, its too low spec, for one thing,
NovaCoder is calling NatAMI too ambitious, I will say that it is not near how ambitious it needs to to be called modern in any way or form.
They will never be able to create a graphic card that can be compared to modern ATI or Nvidia graphic card.
(If this was easy you see lots companies creating graphic cards, and competing for customers, and not two ATI and Nvidia.)
They will never be able to make a FPGA CPU that is in GHz range.
All I see is small upgrade to classic line of Amiga computers.
The X1000 on the other hand does have some modern features,1.8Ghz CPU,AltiVec, SATA, PCIe, modern graphics new graphic cards from ATI, lots and lots of RAM. It can play modern films 720, 1050 should work 1080 possibly with SMP, or with hardware accelerated video decoding.
AmigaOS4.1 was voted the most beautiful OS here not long ago, its also a patch free OS, with lots of improvements under the hood.
I'm not willing to go back to AmigaOS3.x with patches that make the system unstable.
The X1000 is expletive yes, but you get some thing now, instead of waiting for some thing that can never be as good, and by the time NatAMI project is out there will be X9000 I'm shore.
I can't think of any reason way I should be using a NatAMI instead of X1000, there is no old hardware that is wort connecting to it, and yes maybe is more precise at ruining 68k program, but who cares the software from 80's and 90's is designed for lowres 320x200 and 640x480, it looks horrible, and does not do what I expect in 2014.
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This two things are not the same products, the NetAmi has no appeal for me, its too low spec, for one thing,
NovaCoder is calling NatAMI too ambitious, I will say that it is not near who ambitious it needs to to be called modern in any way or from.
They will never be able to create a graphic card that can be compared to modern ATI or Nvidia graphic card.
They will never be able to make a FPGA that is in GHz range.
All I see is small upgrade to classic line of Amiga computers.
The X1000 on the other hand does have some modern features, SATA, PCIe, modern graphics new graphic cards from ATI, lots and lots of RAM. It can play modern films 720, 1050 should work 1080 possibly with SMP, or with hardware accelerated video decoding.
AmigaOS4.1 was voted the most beautiful OS here not long ago, its also a patch free OS, with lots of improvements under the hood.
I'm not willing to go back to AmigaOS3.x with patches that make the system unstable.
The X1000 is expletive yes, but you get some thing now, instead of waiting for some thing that can never be as good, and by the time NatAMI project is out there will be X9000 I'm shore.
Hmmm and where do you get the software from? Certainly 90% of the software base is 68k. And if I want something as workhorse I would not even look at "NG" because I have plenty of options already with all needed drivers (in opposite to AmigaOS). Amiga today is not the mainstream like it was in early 90s, it is a pure fun platform and for that I do not need extremely expensive custom PPC hardware and I will never buy PPC Macs (used or new). Certainly many people think that way. New FPGA based affordable devices would be something different, you can develop new custom chipsets on them, they have the "geek" factor, they are clearly different to standard hardware in opposite to your preferred choice that only differentiates in processor and price. So for me new FPGA Amigas are perfect and you can add everything you want in hardware and optimize everything so we will see how big the differences in reality will be. And even if who cares...
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Hmmm and where do you get the software from?
I create my own software, if I need some thing, that's my hobby.
Certainly 90% of the software base is 68k.
Yes but can you name any 68k software that is worth using today?
and you can add everything you want in hardware and optimize everything so we will see how big the differences in reality will be.
Well I'm not, I'm shore there are few people who are interested in FPGA's and what they can do with it, but this people have different interest then the people who buy X1000.
Anyway some will need to make this optimizations, write the drivers and the software to use the drivers, with out drivers there might be one program that can use your optimizations, and no other because how many are expects on FPGA's?
It might be that I have been a NG user for too long to see the value to see the appeal, that's maybe the point, the people who buy X1000, are not the same as the people who are interested in NatAMI.
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68k software worth using?
Well, all things considered I could get by perfectly by using Turbocalc and Amigawriter.
I do realise that Libreoffice will completely murder those programs feature and userfriendliness, but for what I do for my own personal use those 2 programs would be more than enough.
On the way out the door, but thats the 2 programs I can mention on top of my head and they can be bought from vesalia :)
I used turbocalc all the time back in the days, and Im considering getting it again now that Im upgrading my A1200.
As has been said before; it might not make complete sense to do so, but if you have fun and actually get some productivity out of it, why not....?
Im somewhat intrested in NG machines, but I still cant quite get myself to shell out for it; its a price vs performance thing. Tho you could probarly use that logic against me since Im currently upgrading my A1200 ;)
I dont think potential Natami, classical and NG customers are that different. If we went for the whole performance ratio vs effort and price, then we would have left this platform/hobby behind long time ago.
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I create my own software, if I need some thing. That my hobby.
Yes but can you name any 68k software that is worth using today?
Well I'm not, I'm shore there are few people who are interested in FPGA's and what they can do with it, but this people have different interest then the people who buy X1000.
Anyway some will need to make this optimizations, write the drivers and the software to use the drivers, with out drivers there might be one program that can use your optimizations, and no other because how many are expects on FPGA's?
It might be that I have been a NG user for too long to see the value to see the appeal, that's maybe the point, the people who buy X1000, are not the same as the people who are interested in NatAMI.
Aehh drivers? "Who" writes the drivers for X1000? And there are for sure more people interested in 68k than in what is called "NG". You are not interested in FPGA and 68k and I am not in your X1000. And yes propably you are too long NG user obviously (even if I think many MorphOS or AmigaOS user will be interested in it too, not to replace AmigaOS or MorphOS but just for fun and interest).
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68k software worth using?
Well, all things considered I could get by perfectly by using Turbocalc and Amigawriter.
I do realise that Libreoffice will completely murder those programs feature and userfriendliness, but for what I do for my own personal use those 2 programs would be more than enough.
On the way out the door, but thats the 2 programs I can mention on top of my head and they can be bought from vesalia :)
I used turbocalc all the time back in the days, and Im considering getting it again now that Im upgrading my A1200.
As has been said before; it might not make complete sense to do so, but if you have fun and actually get some productivity out of it, why not....?
Im somewhat intrested in NG machines, but I still cant quite get myself to shell out for it; its a price vs performance thing. Tho you could probarly use that logic against me since Im currently upgrading my A1200 ;)
I dont think potential Natami, classical and NG customers are that different. If we went for the whole performance ratio vs effort and price, then we would have left this platform/hobby behind long time ago.
+1
there are many interesting former commercial programs on 68k, f.e. Raytracers like Reflections, graphical programs like TV-Paint or even some office applications and countless PD or Shareware. The only area where NG is ahead at the moment is web browsing and a handful native applications. But you can certainly count them on one (or worst case) two hands.
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Well, all things considered I could get by perfectly by using Turbocalc and Amigawriter.
I have actually used TurboCalc on AmigaOS4, and it work fine, but having said that there are newer and better spreadsheet application for AmigaOS, “Ignition” its 68k but it has fewer of the limitations of TurboCalc.
Amigawriter is to out of date for my taste, thinking about supported file formats and so on, shore there tools like AntiWord to convert .doc files to text and so, and lose the text formatting, I don't like that.
“Cinnamon Writer” is my suggestion as replacement its native AmigaOS software, AbiWord that's also nice office application.
Libreoffice is not yet ported to AmigaOS, but you can use Google docs, works fine in Odyssey Web browser.
Besides every thing I can't do on AmigaOS, I need to do on Linux or Windows anyway, so sure there are some programs that used to be nice on AmigaOS3.x but most of the software is so old.
but if you have fun and actually get some productivity out of it, why not....?
Shore that's the point of any hobby.
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I have actually used TurboCalc on AmigaOS4, and it work fine, but having said that there are newer and better spreadsheet application for AmigaOS, “Ignition” its 68k but it has fewer of the limitations of TurboCalc.
Amigawriter is to out of date for my taste, thinking about supported file formats and so on, shore there tools like AntiWord to convert .doc files to text and so, and lose the text formatting, I don't like that.
“Cinnamon Writer” is my suggestion as replacement its native AmigaOS software, AbiWord that's also nice office application.
Libreoffice is not yet ported to AmigaOS, but you can use Google docs, works fine in Odyssey Web browser.
Besides every thing I can't do on AmigaOS, I need to do on Linux or Windows anyway, so sure there are some programs that used to be nice on AmigaOS3.x but most of the software is so old.
Shore that's the point of any hobby.
but there are mostly no newer ones on AmigaOS. So I see no sense to spend lots of money for it. On 68k there is lots of to look at, many programs and library (partly developed in years) are forgotten and have to be found again :-), hidden gems so to say. That is the fun to me. And there is no problem to start with it, you can use almost every hardware for it. Web Browsing is the only thing where NG really is ahead. It is a playground today, not a potential replacement for Windows/Linux/Mac like some seem to hope with Aros/AmigaOS or MorphOS.
Everybody shall have his fun, be it with new FPGA based hardware implementing 68k or X1000/X5000, and not try to explain the others do the wrong decision. Rational both are senseless.
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Raytracers like Reflections,
Not tried it, but often when you compare old programs to new programs, there big difference in details, filters and effects, water effects in Autodesk Maya for example, looks real. While we do not have Maya on AmigaOS4. We do have Blender and it can produce decent quality images.
graphical programs like TV-Paint
Works on AmigaOS4 (does not need UAE),
But it does not support PNG, and so there might be better applications for job like Gimp or Sketchblock.
countless PD or Shareware.
Maybe a few items (HippoPlayer), but rally nothing I need or most use.
More impotently nothing of this requires a NatAMI, even if HippoPlayer does not work on AmigaOS4, it work in E-UAE, so its not a issue.
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So I see no sense to spend lots of money for it
NatAmi is not going to be free, thats for shore, I don't think money is a issue, seeing how much money people have spent on hardware upgrades for Classic Amiga; acceleration cards, graphic cards, and all sort of Clock port exception upgrades. Looking at signature, it looks like some have there own private museum with all models ever created.
It is a playground today
AmigaOS has always been playground for hobbyists, shore it has been used in some commercial settings.
not a potential replacement for Windows/Linux/Mac like some seem to hope with Aros/AmigaOS or MorphOS
AmigaOS4 is a potential replacement for Windows/Linux/Mac, if it was not for Skype and Spotify and a few games, I'm shore there are people who don't need this things, and do manage with just AmigaOS.
I only recently installed Linux, for one thing only, I have managed with out Linux for years.
Most things you don't even need a computer to do this days, with Android tablet, and smart phones.
Everybody shall have his fun
Some thing for every one.
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I create my own software, if I need some thing. That my hobby.
Yes but can you name any 68k software that is worth using today?
sounds as if you need to program just everything you are using yourself. what are these incredible programs that surpass all 68k applications in quality, may i ask?
Not tried it, but often when you compare old programs to new programs, there big difference in details, filters and effects, water effects in Autodesk Maya for example, looks real. While we do not have Maya on AmigaOS4. We do have Blender and it can produce decent quality images.
since you apparently dont need amiga backwards compatibility, and claim only to write own programs or use linux ports you really might be better off with any brand of linux where your software is genuinely coming from and where it isnt limited by shortcomings of os of your choice.
well. i guess you know that yourself very well. this means there is no more reasons to use your os as to use amigas or their fpga clones, its a question of sentiment and subjective definitions, so each and every argument you used against amiga and its software may be used against the os of your choice as well.
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NatAmi is not going to be free, thats for shore, I don't think money is a issue, seeing how much money people have spent on hardware upgrades for Classic Amiga; acceleration cards, graphic cards, and all sort of Clock port exception upgrades. Looking at signature, it looks like some have there own private museum with all models ever created.
AmigaOS has always been playground for hobbyists, shore it has been used in some commercial settings.
AmigaOS4 is a potential replacement for Windows/Linux/Mac, if it was not for Skype and Spotify and a few games, I'm shore there are people who don't need this things, and do manage with just AmigaOS.
I only recently installed Linux, for one thing only, I have managed with out Linux for years.
Most things you don't even need a computer to do this days, with Android tablet, and smart phones.
Some thing for every one.
I would not buy any of the old accellerators or graphic cards because the prices for them are as insane as for your preferred option. I know that some use AmigaOS as replacement for Windows or Mac but I am not interested in it. "Natami" would have been too expensive too because of custom board, the accellerators Gunnar and others are working on are much cheaper because they basically use standard FPGA boards for it. His goal is around 150 EUR so that is much more affordable than X1000 I assume :-). Both are hobbies but I would not be willing to spend thousands of dollars on it. But that has everyone decide for himself. When I mention a program you always write XYZ (only available on Windows or Linux) is newer that it. Yes but most of those programs are not available on AmigaOS too. And even if, they are just ports but then I can also use the programs on Windows or Linux and do not need to buy expensive AmigaOS hardware. Only software that is not available on Windows or Linux might be a reason to use AmigaOS.
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Yes but can you name any 68k software that is worth using today?
Why are you here?
An fpga based amiga better than a minimig would be nice, the fpga arcade is closer to what I want but still misses by a bit.
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I look forward to FPS being ported. We never got that on Amiga.
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With all my respetcs to all but... some people defending vaporware, or asking to aeon to be involved into the project, some others wondering if its worth to use 68k sofware today.
I supose that this is just easy speak, if not its silly.
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But that has everyone decide for himself. When I mention a program you always write XYZ (only available on Windows or Linux) is newer that it. Yes but most of those programs are not available on AmigaOS too.
For most things there is a way, its a question of does this do what you need it to do.
and even if, they are just ports but then I can also use the programs on Windows or Linux
It depends, what the result is of doing it one way vs the other way, some commercial software we will never have for AmigaOS. But some times there are good open source alteratives.
and do not need to buy expensive AmigaOS hardware.
Well you don't need to, but AmigaOS has its advantages too, besides being notalgic about it.
Never need to reinstall applications after OS upgrade, different way of doing things that can be some times a advantage, not too bloated easy to understand what is going on, no virus and no advertisement in software, no bundled crap included, how the UI works, well there are many more things.
But more impotently its a hobby and some people like to use.
Only software that is not available on Windows or Linux might be a reason to use AmigaOS.
You can do every thing in Windows and Linux and most likely there are better programs to do it, I guess it comes down to being able to do things differently.
Besides I like writing programs for AmigaOS, hard to do that on Windows.
I guess the answers is some thing similar for a MacOS users or Linux user way not use windows, when all the best commercial software is for windows.
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Why are you here?
Comment 42, X1000 sales will be some how damaged by NatAMI sales.
I disagree with this, X1000 users like my self, I'm interested in a modern computer with modern software, we X1000 users are more interested in the OS experience.
An fpga based amiga better than a minimig would be nice, the fpga arcade is closer to what I want but still misses by a bit.
I do understand the part of people wanting the authentic experience, perfect audio and video sync, and the right sounds, etc. If I was interested in classic games I buy minimig, don't play a lot of games this days, and so it does not make sense to me.
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Comment 42, X1000 sales will be some how damaged by NatAMI sales.
I disagree with this, X1000 users like my self, I'm interested in a modern computer with modern software, we X1000 users are more interested in the OS experience.
i cant tell, but but perhaps it is the best if this is actually the case and amiga and os4 fans are two completely different separate groups of people. im fine with that.
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The X1000 is expletive yes, but you get some thing now, instead of waiting for some thing that can never be as good, and by the time NatAMI project is out there will be X9000 I'm shore.
What good is x9000 or x1000 for that matter when there is NO SOFTWARE TO USE? IMO There has beena complete waste of resources in so4 land developing os4 for alien hardware. All time has been wasted on drivers instead of games, cool apps, etc. Should have been Project Moana. If that had happened 5 years ago we would have software not new super powered awesome hardware with almost no software at all. So kind of pointless?
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Comparing Natami, or any FPGA Amiga clone, to the X1000 and AmigaOS4.1.6, or MorphOS3.6, or the latest version of any of the AROS forks, is about as useful as comparing the C64 to Windows 8 running on the latest i7 CPU. Trying to convince the users of any of these hobby platforms that they are wasting their time and that the platform they have chosen to spend their money and time supporting, and that they enjoy using and maybe developing new or ported software for, is also a waste of time. can very often lead to conflicts in these forums, when one member insults the intelligence, or sanity for another's choice of hobby/retro platform.
It would be better to just stick to the thread topic and leave out comments that attack any other platform choices. We have read those attacking comments hundreds of times over and over again anyway, so why bother repeating them again. We all know that any of the currently available Amiga and Amiga inspired OSes and hardware that they run on are far removed from any mainstream platforms, but most of us use one or more of these Amiga and/or Amiga inspired platforms, because we like to use them.
Instead, I suggest that members choose to support the Amiga and Amiga inspired platforms of their choice(s) by pointing out the positive points for each of those platforms, but do it in appropriate threads, or in a way that ties such information to any thread they are posting the information into.
Just a suggestion on how to contribute in a positive way, instead of negative alternatives.
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I just should point out that it was a different project that was cancelled. Natami was not re-started.
I checked out some videos of OS4 and MorphOS. Both are okay, but not worth the price yet.
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The remainders of the Natami-Team is basically the team behind apollo core, then one of the former members is now creating a new core on its own (you can read discussions on amigacoding.de), I was member of the team too and have concentrated on Aros Vision after the Natami project ended, some others like Samurai Crow are around and he has said he would help me to improve Aros 68k to make it a perfect replacement for 3.1.).
Natami was a combination of custom hardware and specific core done by one developer and this developer had all rights to it. After this developer officially left I had a couple of email contacts with him and I asked him if he could think about opensourcing it, a couple of weeks later there was the last thing I officially read from him that he would continue with his project on his own with a new name and that was the last thing I have heard of it. Nobody of the team could do anything about it. Today the hardware would be very very old and the Natami board (as every custom solution) would have been very expensive if ever finished. What Gunnar now plans is much promising, affordable and based on new hardware. I was very interested in Natami at that time (in fact it was the reason why I started to be interested in Amiga again) but 2014 I think Natami is past. How Gunnar said, we have everything available now, ECS and AGA implementations (Minimig and the core of FPGA Arcade), free OS and Roms (Aros 68k) and also components that were done at first for Natami (Apollo core and SAGA) so if the persons responsible act together something good could come out of it.
I'd like to see a motherboard in some standard ATX format with Gunnar's Apollo core as the CPU and PCI Express slots with openpci.library support.
Basically a PC with a 68k CPU. :)
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I just should point out that it was a different project that was cancelled. Natami was not re-started.
I checked out some videos of OS4 and MorphOS. Both are okay, but not worth the price yet.
MorphOS is very much worth the price.
I registered MorphOS v3.1 for 100 quid and then received FIVE major updates free of charge to bring me up to v3.6 currently.
I will continue to receive free updates to major versions of the 3.x series.
What other OS give you that much?
Buy Windows XP and then updates to Vista, then to Win7, Win8, Win 8.1. how much would that cost you?
Plus MorphOS is free to use for unlimted amount of time for those who are too tight fisted to pay for it, you just have to reboot every 30 minutes.
As for OS4, then I agree with you that the costs is too much. I run it on a Pegasos II but your only option if you don't want second hand hardware seems to be the $3000 X1000 or various models of low performing SAM mobos.
Project Moana should have been a proper release from Hyperion years ago.
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...Should have been Project Moana. If that had happened 5 years ago we would have software not new super powered awesome hardware with almost no software at all...
MorphOS started years before AOS4. And they desided to use apple HW because no-one was producing usable PPC motherboards.
But does MorphOS have more SW than AOS4?
I think the "lack of SW" is the same for all Amiga flavours.
For AOS4 there was third parties willing to do HW + finance SW porting, so they have been mainly supporting their HW partners.
And we do not have more affordable HW yet because we have not had enough HW tinkerers to do those cheaper boards.
For 68k flavour: I think it nicely complements the community. If powerfull enoughj 68k cores are made, I think it could be possible to see some NG things ported back to 68k etc. And at the same time, experience in 68k HW designs can one day help to produce those affordable PPC boards as well.
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As for OS4, then I agree with you that the costs is too much.
The price of the OS is not that bad considering all the updates that I have gotten for that price.
I run it on a Pegasos II
It was not free when it came first came out, I belive it was priced around the same value as a AmigaONE-XE, when it came out.
Shore you can argue that X1000 hardware is expective, but we don't see it that way, we like to there to be hardware in the future as well, and the only way to do that is support the people who make hardware, that goes for any hardware being made, that also includes NatAMI, MiniMigs, and hardware upgrades for classic Amiga computers.
The fact that El-Box and INDIVIDUAL COMPUTERS, exists today is mostly down to fact that some one buys there products. It does not matter if its classic Amiga we are taking about or NG, in this context. I'm happy Amiga is as live as it is today, I'm happy I can go and buy new stuff from AmigaKIT, and I hope this is will be possible in the future as well.
I see you have donated to support Amiga.org, I'm shore you don't disagree with me.
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The price of the OS is not that bad considering all the updates that I have gotten for that price.
It was not free when it came first came out, I belive it was priced around the same value as a AmigaONE-XE, when it came out.
Shore you can argue that X1000 hardware is expective, but we don't see it that way, we like to there to be hardware in the future as well, and the only way to do that is support the people who make hardware, that goes for any hardware being made, that also includes NatAMI, MiniMigs, and hardware upgrades for classic Amiga computers.
The fact that El-Box and INDIVIDUAL COMPUTERS, exists today is mostly down to fact that some one buys there products. It does not matter if its classic Amiga we are taking about or NG, in this context. I'm happy Amiga is as live as it is today, I'm happy I can go and buy new stuff from AmigaKIT, and I hope this is will be possible in the future as well.
I see you have donated to support Amiga.org, I'm shore you don't disagree with me.
I have only a problem with your view 68=old/retro and X1000 is new/modern. In fact the FPGA solutions that will be used are very modern (to be precise used in the industry). And Aros 68k includes a number of patches already too, in fact I have not added very much in my distribution. Most changes are desktop-related (Magellan) and replacing Zune with MUI 3.8. So your black/white picture is not true anymore. And in the last three years I really got a good overview of the software base and 68k is by far the biggest (and I do not talk about commercial software that is almost not existing on NG). There are lots of libraries written in assembler for gaming and graphics that are long forgotten and I hope to make them known again. And the huge number of compilers available that not exist as PPC native versions. All successor OSs tried to give life back by making it easier to port applications and games, but after now 20 years (or 10 years MorphOS/AmigaOS) we see that this vastly failed. A new generation of 68k devices directly build on the 68k base offer a much higher chance. That does not mean that people cannot have their fun with their X1000 or used Macs but I prefer a different route and think the "we are the innovative and modern" and there are the "retros, just playing old games" attitude totally wrong.
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Comparing Natami, or any FPGA Amiga clone, to the X1000 and AmigaOS4.1.6, or MorphOS3.6, or the latest version of any of the AROS forks, is about as useful as comparing the C64 to Windows 8 running on the latest i7 CPU. Trying to convince the users of any of these hobby platforms that they are wasting their time and that the platform they have chosen to spend their money and time supporting, and that they enjoy using and maybe developing new or ported software for, is also a waste of time. can very often lead to conflicts in these forums, when one member insults the intelligence, or sanity for another's choice of hobby/retro platform.
It would be better to just stick to the thread topic and leave out comments that attack any other platform choices. We have read those attacking comments hundreds of times over and over again anyway, so why bother repeating them again. We all know that any of the currently available Amiga and Amiga inspired OSes and hardware that they run on are far removed from any mainstream platforms, but most of us use one or more of these Amiga and/or Amiga inspired platforms, because we like to use them.
Instead, I suggest that members choose to support the Amiga and Amiga inspired platforms of their choice(s) by pointing out the positive points for each of those platforms, but do it in appropriate threads, or in a way that ties such information to any thread they are posting the information into.
Just a suggestion on how to contribute in a positive way, instead of negative alternatives.
a small correction... Aros 68k (that is base of Aros Vision) is using the newest Aros fork. It is inheriting all the features of Aros (and sometimes also its errors)
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I have only a problem with your view 68=old/retro and X1000 is new/modern. In fact the FPGA solutions that will be used are very modern (to be precise used in the industry).
A FPGA can be programmed to do different things, but if you program it to be a Amiga1200 it is a Amiga1200, shore you can add some new features. And sure you can make a better Amiga then what existed back then, but even so you can't make better graphic card then what ATI have for sale.
But the NatAMI is not for people like me who wants a a new ATI graphic card, instead of some kind of AGA graphics.
I think we might be drifting a bit off topic here, I hope no one minds.
the software base and 68k is by far the biggest (and I do not talk about commercial software...
That might be, when I first got my AmigaONE-XE, I spent days digging into old Amiga Cover CD's and Disks.
If we talk about internet software, besides the more known Aweb/IBrowse/Voyager, there is few BBS and News Group reader programs, this days I wont dream of using today.
It might well be that there are some gems I don't know about as I whet from Amiga500 to AmigaONE-XE, and skipped, only used A1200 when vising one of my friends. And he did not have internet connection at the time.
I know of one Arexx RSS/Podcast reader I like to get working gain, the trick is to install the correct versions of MUI classes or else it does not run, I have pretty much given up on it. (Anyway it might be this is a potential future software project for me, so I don't mind)
The point being there is lot of crap out there, and while there might be few gems its really hard to find this, when you do find some thing it is normally a disappointment because software is not exactly bug free, as you might think.
Shore there are some programs that are not totally outdated.
There are lots of libraries written in assembler for gaming and graphics that are long forgotten and I hope to make them known again.
Looking foreword to knowing more about this.
And the huge number of compilers available that not exist as PPC native versions.
There is a few compilers that don't work anymore, but most software is written in C, sure there might nice to have a good Pascal compiler, but then again no one writes programs in Pascal anymore. Looking back at things I made in AMOS there is absolutely nothing I like to bring back to life. (Even if was possible to bring back something, I really hate having to work with a program language that is not well structured today.) The start menu Excalibur started its life as a BlitzBasic2 program, and was rewritten for GCC, I'm not shore it be supporting Composition and window transparency if was not ported from BlitzBasic2 to GCC, AsmOne might not work, but VBCC 680x0 assembler and linker do, there is nothing I really miss.
we see that this vastly failed.
most of the software is not open source, reverse engineering is not that easy, and writing some thing that looks like some thing old, seams meaning less as more then likely it does make sense to do it the same way as in 80's and 90's.
But on the bright side, there as been a few nice ports, AWeb, Dopus4, Opus5 and Personal Paint, Yam, SimpleMail, AmigaAMP. It maybe not a lot but many of this programs are nice programs.
There are slot of new programs that kind fills the gap.
I can also easy admit that there are some 68k programs that do work.
In any case most of big 68k software base is mix some good and lots of not so good programs, navigating and finding some thing that is worth using is not always easy, if you don't know what your looking for.
For the people how use classic MacOS, there is system7today.com, some thing like that might be nice idea for AmigaOS3.x, to help guide people to good gems.
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A FPGA can be programmed to do different things, but if you program it to be a Amiga1200 it is a Amiga1200, shore you can add some new features. And sure you can make a better Amiga then what existed back then, but even so you can't make better graphic card then what ATI have for sale.
But the NatAMI is not for people like me who wants a a new ATI graphic card, instead of some kind of AGA graphics.
I think we might be drifting a bit off topic here, I hope no one minds.
That might be, when I first got my AmigaONE-XE, I spent days digging into old Amiga Cover CD's and Disks.
If we talk about internet software, besides the more known Aweb/IBrowse/Voyager, there is few BBS and News Group reader programs, this days I wont dream of using today.
It might well be that there are some gems I don't know about as I whet from Amiga500 to AmigaONE-XE, and skipped, only used A1200 when vising one of my friends. And he did not have internet connection at the time.
I know of one Arexx RSS/Podcast reader I like to get working gain, the trick is to install the correct versions of MUI classes or else it does not run, I have pretty much given up on it. (Anyway it might be this is a potential future software project for me, so I don't mind)
The point being there is lot of crap out there, and while there might be few gems its really hard to find this, when you do find some thing it is normally a disappointment because software is not exactly bug free, as you might think.
Shore there are some programs that are not totally outdated.
Looking foreword to knowing more about this.
There is a few compilers that don't work anymore, but most software is written in C, sure there might nice to have a good Pascal compiler, but then again no one writes programs in Pascal anymore. Looking back at things I made in AMOS there is absolutely nothing I like to bring back to life. (Even if was possible to bring back something, I really hate having to work with a program language that is not well structured today.) The start menu Excalibur started its life as a BlitzBasic2 program, and was rewritten for GCC, I'm not shore it be supporting Composition and window transparency if was not ported from BlitzBasic2 to GCC, AsmOne might not work, but VBCC 680x0 assembler and linker do, there is nothing I really miss.
most of the software is not open source, reverse engineering is not that easy, and writing some thing that looks like some thing old, seams meaning less as more then likely it does make sense to do it the same way as in 80's and 90's.
But on the bright side, there as been a few nice ports, AWeb, Dopus4, Opus5 and Personal Paint, Yam, SimpleMail, AmigaAMP. It maybe not a lot but many of this programs are nice programs.
There are slot of new programs that kind fills the gap.
I can also easy admit that there are some 68k programs that do work.
In any case most of big 68k software base is mix some good and lots of not so good programs, navigating and finding some thing that is worth using is not always easy, if you don't know what your looking for.
For the people how use classic MacOS, there is system7today.com, some thing like that might be nice idea for AmigaOS3.x, to help guide people to good gems.
Examples are Raystorm and game master system (two of many) that come to my mind and I recently added to Aros Vision. There are many more (both with years of work invested in it).
And Pascal is just one example, there are different versions of Amiga-E, Oberon, Modula, several Basic-Compilers and even when using AMOS there are plenty of AMOS extensions available. C is available too, I think I saw a official page for Actek-C somewhere and there are VBCC, Dice and of course you still get commercial or former commercial compilers on ebay (bought lots of software there in the past).
http://aminet.net/package/dev/misc/gms_dev
http://aminet.net/package/gfx/3d/raystorm_881
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The remainders of the Natami-Team is basically the team behind apollo core.
When can we see some pictures of the apollo core boards. ?
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As for OS4, then I agree with you that the costs is too much. I run it on a Pegasos II but your only option if you don't want second hand hardware seems to be the $3000 X1000 or various models of low performing SAM mobos.
Project Moana should have been a proper release from Hyperion years ago.
I agree totally, but ......................
I don't remember who started the work on project Moana. Seems that I read it might have been the guys at ACube, or it might have been someone else, but I don't think it was Hyperion's developers. Who ever it was, they got it to boot, but didn't go any further with driver development for Mac hardware. I suppose you can ask the MorphOS Dev. Team about how hard it was (and still is) for them to write all the drivers to handle Mac hardware, as there is no documentation for any of the Mac hardware available freely, outside of Apple.
I agree that completing project Moana would have been great for AmigaOS4.x users. I think it would have converted many more AmigaOS3.x users, if they had been able to purchase cheap but high performance used G4 Mac hardware to run AmigaOS4.x, and I don't really understand why Hyperion has not pursued this idea by dedicating some of their programming resources to complete a port of AmigaOS4.x to PPC Mac hardware, so they could increase the size of their user base. Of course there are many Classic Amiga users who will never convert to any NG Amiga platform, but I think that there are many who watch what is going on with AmigaOS4.x that would try it out if it were available on $100 to $300 used hardware and the OS price were around $50 to $100 per license.
In my opinion, each day that Hyperion wastes in not porting AmigaOS4.x to some kind of cheaper hardware that most Classic Amiga users can afford, is another day where more users leave the Amiga community behind completely. We were once a community of 10's of thousands, and now we are only a few thousand (I am counting all people in our combined community of Classic, OS4, MorphOS, Emulation, FPGA clones, & AROS), and if the decline in number of users is not reversed soon, we will only have a few hundred die hard users left in the near future. Not that such a port of AmigaOS4.x to cheap Mac PPC hardware will make much of a difference, but it certainly won't hurt and it might slow the exodus of users who finally give up on anything Amiga related.
Some will say that if any Classic users wanted a NG Amiga system that runs on PPC Mac hardware, they would have already started using MorphOS. That is true for some users, but unfortunately, there are a few users in the MorphOS community that have behaved in a way that has "turned off" some of the Classic Amiga users so much so, that no matter how good MorphOS becomes, they will never choose to use it as an alternative to Classic AmigaOS, but they might consider moving to AmigaOS4.x. I say this from a perspective of a "die hard" MorphOS user and promoter. But I also use and hope for the success of AmigaOS4.x, which is why I would wish for them to complete the Moana project and get some new users and interest.
It is a real shame that the Natami team fell apart after one or two of its members pissed off the man with the original idea, who has since gone into hiding and is now working alone on his ideas, probably to be released under a different name (if he is ever able to complete any of it). The Natami project captured the imagination of a large segment of our community (including myself) and I think that it could have generated a large amount of enthusiasm and renewed programming interest on 68k Amiga. Hopefully the Apollo boards will have a similar effect and besides being just FPGA accelerators, they will be expanded some time in the future, to include much of what the Natami had aimed for.
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, but unfortunately, there are a few users in the MorphOS community that have behaved in a way that has "turned off" some of the Classic Amiga users
what i frankly am not sure about is when on an amiga site amiga is considered equal to c64 and its users as subject to being "converted"..
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MorphOS is very much worth the price.
If you want to get my two cents: It's probably not more worth than the two cents I just gave you... The reason is quite simple: There is no reasonably modern and reasonably large software library, and there is no reasonable hardware either. Most certainly, you can say the same for Os 4.0, which is basically the reason why I do not care much about either. Sorry for that, but that's simply as it is. For anything modern, I have Linux. For anything old, I have the 68K. But I have no use of an Operating system for exotic hardware and no software basis. I registered MorphOS v3.1 for 100 quid and then received FIVE major updates free of charge to bring me up to v3.6 currently.
I will continue to receive free updates to major versions of the 3.x series.
What other OS give you that much?
Linux. Yes, really. You pay nothing, you get updates forever, it runs on modern hardware, and has a huge software library, does everything I want. Buy Windows XP and then updates to Vista, then to Win7, Win8, Win 8.1. how much would that cost you?
To be frank, it would also cost me nothing, but that's because our university has a Dreamspark contract with M$. But anyways - it's not the Os of my choice, Win8 even less so. It's consistently unusable. As for OS4, then I agree with you that the costs is too much. I run it on a Pegasos II but your only option if you don't want second hand hardware seems to be the $3000 X1000 or various models of low performing SAM mobos.
Somebody has to earn some money for all the time spend developing it. For both "PPC branches". That's all appreciated and understood. However, that still does not make me understand the business model behind it. It is basically a model from 30 years ago: Create a custom hardware ("home computer") with its own software and user basis, and hope that it creates enough attraction. Basically, you sold a hardware and hope that the users care for the software. However, this type of business died a long time ago. Hardware does not count anymore. Today, you provide a software for free, or no software at all, and provide a service around it, or around a web-service, and charge for that. Hardware is unimportant. HTML is important, browsers are important.
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I think it would have converted many more AmigaOS3.x users
Not me. It's all about the hardware for me (AGA+68k), and I only use AOS3 because I have to. In fact, I would get rid of AOS completely if I could (linux and Aros are NOT valid options for me).
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You've got a small amount of apps that should be covered by each platform:
Internet browser, music player.
Depending each persons needs: also an office suite, CD/DVD recording etc.
I pick the one that is fun to use. A quality that other OSes never had.
Here's a nice one that got finished:
http://boards.openpandora.org/page/homepage.html (http://boards.openpandora.org/page/homepage.html)
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If you want to get my two cents: It's probably not more worth than the two cents I just gave you... The reason is quite simple: There is no reasonably modern and reasonably large software library, and there is no reasonable hardware either. Most certainly, you can say the same for Os 4.0, which is basically the reason why I do not care much about either. Sorry for that, but that's simply as it is. For anything modern, I have Linux. For anything old, I have the 68K. But I have no use of an Operating system for exotic hardware and no software basis.
agreed. paying for these products is an act of support and should be clearly seen as such, and therefore im perfectly fine with my amigas and what they are capable of, but i will always need an contemporary computing solution and since no amigalike system offers me that, they do not count as an option.
Linux. Yes, really. You pay nothing, you get updates forever, it runs on modern hardware, and has a huge software library, does everything I want.
aros, if you want an amiga inspired system, but nicolas of course knows that;) on the other hand i must admit aros is not a complete solution, like linux, its more like work in progress and a playground for programmers, but this very much applies to every amiga like system.
To be frank, it would also cost me nothing, but that's because our university has a Dreamspark contract with M$. But anyways - it's not the Os of my choice, Win8 even less so. It's consistently unusable.
this is not a valid argument, windows is not free for general public. but i must beg to differ about 8.x usability. i used to think like that prior to purchase, but it is as good as xp or better. its a little inconsistant concept i agree, but who cares..
Somebody has to earn some money for all the time spend developing it. For both "PPC branches". That's all appreciated and understood. However, that still does not make me understand the business model behind it. It is basically a model from 30 years ago: Create a custom hardware ("home computer") with its own software and user basis, and hope that it creates enough attraction. Basically, you sold a hardware and hope that the users care for the software. However, this type of business died a long time ago. Hardware does not count anymore. Today, you provide a software for free, or no software at all, and provide a service around it, or around a web-service, and charge for that. Hardware is unimportant. HTML is important, browsers are important.
again im not a fan of microsoft, but the surface i am typing now from has saved my bottom at the beginning of the year when i was going to italy for three months of scolarship. it is a tablet but with features of a full blown notebook, it has wacom preasure sensitive pen to draw freely, it has reasonable connectivity and didnt cost more than a mid range notebook. i think it is an example that hardware counts even today. probably even the life cycle is similar as in the last millenium, just you cannot develop it in cellar anymore.
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It is a real shame that the Natami team fell apart after one or two of its members pissed off the man with the original idea, who has since gone into hiding and is now working alone on his ideas, probably to be released under a different name (if he is ever able to complete any of it). The Natami project captured the imagination of a large segment of our community (including myself) and I think that it could have generated a large amount of enthusiasm and renewed programming interest on 68k Amiga. Hopefully the Apollo boards will have a similar effect and besides being just FPGA accelerators, they will be expanded some time in the future, to include much of what the Natami had aimed for.
It was more than one or two. I balked too when I found out the NatAmi MX might cost as much as a SAM. That said, I've learned second-hand that Thomas Hirsch is still working on a new NatAmi.
About the Apollo accelerators, there's a locked thread about them on EAB. Gunnar posted there that the accelerator boards will have FPGA usable HDMI and Ethernet ports on them. The idea that some Amiga chipset core with graphics card features will use the HDMI port is very likely.
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If you want to get my two cents: It's probably not more worth than the two cents I just gave you... The reason is quite simple: There is no reasonably modern and reasonably large software library, and there is no reasonable hardware either. Most certainly, you can say the same for Os 4.0, which is basically the reason why I do not care much about either. Sorry for that, but that's simply as it is. For anything modern, I have Linux. For anything old, I have the 68K. But I have no use of an Operating system for exotic hardware and no software basis. Linux. Yes, really. You pay nothing, you get updates forever, it runs on modern hardware, and has a huge software library, does everything I want. To be frank, it would also cost me nothing, but that's because our university has a Dreamspark contract with M$. But anyways - it's not the Os of my choice, Win8 even less so. It's consistently unusable. Somebody has to earn some money for all the time spend developing it. For both "PPC branches". That's all appreciated and understood. However, that still does not make me understand the business model behind it. It is basically a model from 30 years ago: Create a custom hardware ("home computer") with its own software and user basis, and hope that it creates enough attraction. Basically, you sold a hardware and hope that the users care for the software. However, this type of business died a long time ago. Hardware does not count anymore. Today, you provide a software for free, or no software at all, and provide a service around it, or around a web-service, and charge for that. Hardware is unimportant. HTML is important, browsers are important.
I agree with Thomas here, even if one of the NG options would offer 64bit/SMP/MP and run on modern hardware (Arix could be propably nearest to that) it would not offer more than Windows/Linux/Mac but minus the software base of these. And this would not magically change in future.
For me FPGA based new solutions would offer some geek factor, be modern based on new boards and would directly build up on the huge 68k base. All NG OSs (AmigaOS, MorphOS, AROS) tried to convince user and developer to change the hardware but in reality most left (the big drop was around 1998), when AmigaOS and MorphOS became reality it was already too late. And even then (for different reasons) more and more people left (sadly including many devs). AROS has finally at least get a 68k version and ROM replacements so there is a chance to create something new based on 68k independent of history with all the legal problems regarding Amiga Inc. and Hyperion. Will that solutions beat modern hardware? No. Will they outperform PPC? No (but who knows what comes :-) ). Is that necessary? No because it will certainly be a fun platform and not the workhorse. Has any of the NG options a chance to become workhorses like some seem to dream? In my view No because of the lack of software.
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"NG options a chance to become workhorses "
And some "Just want my personal workhorse to be an Amiga."
For me, addition to that, a way to survive as a (niche) platform must be secured.
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"NG options a chance to become workhorses "
And some "Just want my personal workhorse to be an Amiga."
For me, addition to that, a way to survive as a (niche) platform must be secured.
Surviving in case of NG means a couple of hundred (perhaps thousand +) user and that you can buy hardware (even if overpriced). My personal hope is to win much more user and I do not see that with NG because they have vastly failed because not enough software was ported, most devs left (partly even before MorphOS and AmigaOS became real). Affordable FPGA based solutions will offer more attraction because they are different to standard hardware and are based on the much bigger 68k software base. I do not say anything against the NG platforms, I think they will survive (at last as long some people are alive and using it) but I do not see a big chance to get outside the existing community (except AROS with ARM/X86/X64 but it has the problem of the propably smallest software base compared to AmigaOS/MorphOS). I am very grateful for the 68k branch of AROS though :-)
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Dear Moderator,
This thread should be moved to CH. It has gone a little off-topic.
Anyone else agree?
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Dear Moderator,
This thread should be moved to CH. It has gone a little off-topic.
Anyone else agree?
No
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It was more than one or two. I balked too when I found out the NatAmi MX might cost as much as a SAM. That said, I've learned second-hand that Thomas Hirsch is still working on a new NatAmi.
That is incredible news I am willing to wait to see what he can come up with.
When comes to price I is willing to pay as much as a playstation 4 or good tv for fpga (natami like board). so in the price range 1000-2000 USD.
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That is incredible news I am willing to wait to see what he can come up with.
When comes to price I is willing to pay as much as a playstation 4 or good tv for fpga (natami like board). so in the price range 1000-2000 USD.
but im not sure he is really about to be marketing this. i think the natami case should be treated as closed for good.
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but im not sure he is really about to be marketing this. i think the natami case should be treated as closed for good.
hope he makes it a consumer product.
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hope he makes it a consumer product.
ok, but "hoping" is exactly what i would avoid. it leads to expectations that may not be in accordance with what the project is intended to be. thats what likely happened to natami, and why the project has been removed from the spotlight again. if thomas did it, he did it for a reason, he obviously doesnt want the people to put their hopes in him and his project and prefers to be left in peace.
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hope he makes it a consumer product.
I am not sure if he wanted it in public now at all. No speculations please, Thomas will announce something (or not) if he wants that.
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I am not sure if he wanted it in public now at all. No speculations please, Thomas will announce something (or not) if he wants that.
Why isnt natami.net removed or updated with the information so people like me can stop hoping that something will happen to it. ?
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Why isnt natami.net removed or updated with the information so people like me can stop hoping that something will happen to it. ?
I am not the moderator there and not a member anymore there too so do not ask me. The accellerators based on FPGA Cyclone 5 are promised for the near future, everything else is in dark so to say :-)
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The idea that linux is an option is ridiculous.
Yes it serves its purpose, but that purpose in no way shape or form scratches an amiga itch.
MorphOS is a much better option, and worth the money if you enjoy amiga paradigms in your OS (as is AROS or OS4).
A thousand bananas for $1 isnt as interesting as 50 oranges for $10 if a person dislikes bananas and enjoys oranges. That's just the way it is.
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The idea that linux is an option is ridiculous.
Yes it serves its purpose, but that purpose in no way shape or form scratches an amiga itch.
MorphOS is a much better option, and worth the money if you enjoy amiga paradigms in your OS (as is AROS or OS4).
A thousand bananas for $1 isnt as interesting as 50 oranges for $10 if a person dislikes bananas and enjoys oranges. That's just the way it is.
I think he meant that different... for modern software he uses Linux, for the rest 68k and he sees no sense in a modernized NG OS (AmigaOS/MorphOS) that runs on obscure hardware and has no software. He did not say Linux is AmigaOS.
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Yeah, I get that, Im just saying its moot.
Things only have value to people that are interested in them.
To an amiga os (or related) fan Linux' being free has no baring on the value of amiga related system, ergo questioning MorphOS' value because of what hardware and/or software is available to Linux is ridiculous.
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Yeah, I get that, Im just saying its moot.
Things only have value to people that are interested in them.
To an amiga os (or related) fan Linux' being free has no baring on the value of amiga related system, ergo questioning MorphOS' value because of what hardware and/or software is available to Linux is ridiculous.
I do not care. Who wants to use MorphOS (or AmigaOS and AROS X86/ARM and so on) should do that. I am not interested in it (only in 68k including Aros 68k)
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i think thomas has just explained which are his personal interests in amiga and which are not. i think his standpoint is very reasonable and does not depreciate personal sentiments or choices, it explains why he does not develop for os4 anymore while he supports the amiga user community within limits.
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For the record Im not even a MorphOS user. My interest is mostly 68k, and to a lesser extent x86 AROS, but that doesnt make my comments any less valid.
A person pays what they think something is worth. Its completely moot how much another system costs, what hardware it runs on or what software it has if its of no interest.
Ironically the fact that Linux and its distros are predominantely free speaks volumes ;)
Now in regards toMorphOS updates (cant recall who mentioned it), its a bit of an imaginitive stretch isnt it?
Is it free to update from MOS 1.x to 3.6? That'd be the more accurate parallel with Windows updates.
WinXP updates were free for over 10 years. Vista updates have been free for about 7 years, Win7 updates free since its release and so on.
Also, and again a different point that was touched on in this thread, but Im really not surprised there's been no interest in aros for x1000. AROS already runs on hardware 5x as powerful for %10 of the price :).
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So Natami.net has disappeared. No great loss imo, too much hot air is bad for the ozone layer...:laugh1:
Still; I guess this means that everyone involved gave up waiting for Thomas's new Amiga system; as implied by the new name and new website banners that appeared on natami.net about 6 months ago? Or should we expect a new website?
At this point I am waiting to see if Gunnar can pull off the apollo board for my a500; if not then no biggie; something else will materialise sooner or later. At least gunnars board looks close to being ready and I hope he can do it.
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It was more than one or two. I balked too when I found out the NatAmi MX might cost as much as a SAM. That said, I've learned second-hand that Thomas Hirsch is still working on a new NatAmi.
About the Apollo accelerators, there's a locked thread about them on EAB. Gunnar posted there that the accelerator boards will have FPGA usable HDMI and Ethernet ports on them. The idea that some Amiga chipset core with graphics card features will use the HDMI port is very likely.
This is the first I have read about anyone with direct knowledge of what Thomas Hirsch is working on right now, so thanks for that bit of info. I can understand how many people became worried about the cost of the NatAmi MX board, if it could not be cost reduced by increasing the volume of boards to be produced and it looked like it was going to cost as much as the SAM boards, but there were probably hundreds, if not thousands of users who would have gladly paid that price to get a working NatAmi MX system. If some new design can incorporate all, or most of the features of the NatAmi MX board at a much cheaper price, and that is what Thomas Hirsch is working on, he will surely be able to sell many boards to all the former NatAmi hopefuls, if most or all of the features that were announced previously for the NatAmi are implemented. The same should happen for the soon to be released Apollo accelerator boards, as there still seems to be strong interest in Amiga 68k.
It is too bad that the Apollo developers and Thomas Hirsch aren't working together any longer, as they could probably get things done faster if they were working on one project, instead of two different ones that appear to be very similar.
I am waiting to hear from Gunnar on the progress for the Apollo boards and I wonder how the production costs are going to be funded to get those boards manufactured and into the hands of us buyers. Maybe a Kickstarter project would work?
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Perhaps a kickstarter or even a simple pre-order system could work for the opollo boards.
Apparently Majista had 400 orders for the vampire 600 board. He was not able to fulfill these.
Gunnars board should surely do the same or better in numbers.
Natami.net is gone and yet to be replaced with the mooted new website; perhaps the new site will appear soon. It would be nice to think so but I am not investing in the idea this time around. I will observe and wait to see the outcome. I think there is much to be proven and alot of people who got burned by the previous Natami hyperbole will not be so easily convinced this time.