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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: Oldsmobile_Mike on January 15, 2014, 11:55:17 PM
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Got my Picasso II yesterday. Still learning everything about it. ;) Right now I've got it hooked up to a 19" LCD monitor displaying all the PII screenmodes, and output of my Indivision ECS hooked into an identical monitor, displaying all the normal Amiga screenmodes.
Trying to figure out the monitor passthrough of the PII. As soon as I run a standard HD15 VGA cable between the output of my Indivision and the input of the PII, the screen displaying output from the PII goes black. Even if it's got a PII screenmode open and displaying correctly, just the act of plugging the Indivision output into the PII input blanks it.
I know from reading the instructions that the PII should support scandoubled input. Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? Maybe my cable is too long?
About to go out and buy this one unless anyone has any better suggestions:
http://www.neweggbusiness.com/product/product.aspx?item=9b-82-191-085
Thanks! :D
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Got my Picasso II yesterday. Still learning everything about it. ;) Right now I've got it hooked up to a 19" LCD monitor displaying all the PII screenmodes, and output of my Indivision ECS hooked into an identical monitor, displaying all the normal Amiga screenmodes.
Trying to figure out the monitor passthrough of the PII. As soon as I run a standard HD15 VGA cable between the output of my Indivision and the input of the PII, the screen displaying output from the PII goes black. Even if it's got a PII screenmode open and displaying correctly, just the act of plugging the Indivision output into the PII input blanks it.
I know from reading the instructions that the PII should support scandoubled input. Any ideas what I'm doing wrong? Maybe my cable is too long?
About to go out and buy this one unless anyone has any better suggestions:
http://www.neweggbusiness.com/product/product.aspx?item=9b-82-191-085
Thanks! :D
Yes, I would have thought that would work, too. My A3000 has a built-in FF/SD and passes straight thru.
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Thanks, yeah, that's what it seems like it should do. :( The PII seems to have no problem switching between displays using the two monitors, I can hear the relay clicking at the appropriate times and whatnot, don't understand why the display completely goes black when I plug anything into the pass through.
Is the cable you're using a standard HD15 VGA cable? How long is it? All of mine are the standard 5-6', hence why I'm thinking to order a shorter one.
I also tried changing the Indivision between 1.00 mode (60hz) and 1.25 mode (75hz output) with no difference. It's running the updated 1.10 firmware and otherwise "just works"(tm).
Am wondering what would happen if I hooked the VGA output from a laptop or PC into the input of the PII? Theoretically that should just "pass through" as well, right? (if I switched the Miggy to a non-P96 screenmode first, of course).
Bah, always something!
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Hi Mike,
That should work. I have a picasso II that has bad relay/switch. It makes a clicking noise but it doesn't hold the signal.
There were jumpers for segment/non segmented setup. I don't remember what the details were here, but you may want to make sure of the jumpers.
I hope it isn't bad like mine, mine won't display anything. Did the prior owner test it before selling it to you?
As a last resort you could run 2 screens, which is kinda cool, for your 2000. I did with my 2000 and Retina.
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I have a picasso II that has bad relay/switch. It makes a clicking noise but it doesn't hold the signal.
Oh. That doesn't sound good at all. Jumpers are already off. I'll order myself a shorter cable, cross my fingers, then get in touch with the seller. *sigh* Dual monitors is cool, it's what we use on all our PC's at the office (or three monitors, or four), but it's not what I'm intending for my Miggy. :( Thanks! Maybe I can track down a good external switch...
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Is the cable you're using a standard HD15 VGA cable? How long is it? All of mine are the standard 5-6', hence why I'm thinking to order a shorter one.
My cable is long like yours. I don't currently have this system running. But it did work fine, video-wise.
Am wondering what would happen if I hooked the VGA output from a laptop or PC into the input of the PII? Theoretically that should just "pass through" as well, right? (if I switched the Miggy to a non-P96 screenmode first, of course).
Will you be running the laptop from its battery? In other words, will its ground reference be floating (perhaps safer with no loops or currents) when you try this?
To be on the safe side, I think I would try to resolve this with an old style CRT first. The PII and software came out before LCDs were common.
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Amusingly enough I don't have any old-style CRT's, just racks and stacks of LCD monitors, LOL. There are worse problems one could have, right? ;)
Well, I do still have a couple 1084's that I keep tripping over. They've been listed on Amibay for months. Anyone want one? ;)
I'm using the latest Picasso96 software, released May 2011, so age of software shouldn't be an issue. Leaning more toward mine maybe having the same problem as Matt's. Want to sell your PII, by any chance? :laugh1:
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Nice pic. I do like your matching dual monitors! ;)
I'm off to sleep.
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I'm using the latest Picasso96 software, released May 2011, so age of software shouldn't be an issue. Leaning more toward mine maybe having the same problem as Matt's. Want to sell your PII, by any chance? :laugh1:
Judging by the clicking sound that mine makes, they are probably simple mechanical relays, right? Was Matt suggesting the relay itself is bad? If true, couldn't you test that by jumpering the contacts? A relay should be easy to replace.
Thanks for the offer, I have hopes of resurrecting this machine.
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I would assume so. The challenge will be to find schematics and replacement parts. Here's a thread with someone else apparently looking for the same thing:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=66843
Will poke around at it a bit more, or else just try to pick up a different card. What the heck, I'm just crazy enough that I want to get this working right, and still have some holiday bonus $$ sitting around that I dedicated to spending on Amiga parts, LOL. ;)
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Trying to figure out the monitor passthrough of the PII. As soon as I run a standard HD15 VGA cable between the output of my Indivision and the input of the PII, the screen displaying output from the PII goes black. Even if it's got a PII screenmode open and displaying correctly, just the act of plugging the Indivision output into the PII input blanks it.
Hi Mike
I just had a thought, it's probably a long shot.
I recently found out that there are 2 kinds 15-pin VGA cables. Those with blue connector shells have an extra signal from the monitor back to the graphics card so the monitor can identify itself to the card (so I've heard). Those VGA cables with any other color shell do not pass this signal. Are you running blue-shelled cables in this system?
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Hi! It was worth a shot checking. I've got a tub full of cables and tried with both blue and black ones. The blue ones have all 15 pins, the black ones are missing one pin on the second row. I haven't gone so far as to do a continuity check to see if the pins are wired straight through, but wasn't having any luck with either of the types... and I tried quite a few. That's why I was wondering if there's some special wiring the PII needs, but as far as I've been able to determine that is not the case?
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Er, dumb question maybe, but are you sure the cables are connected to the right ports on the PII? Software settings for passthrough correct? Hardware connection being made with power turned off?
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Er, dumb question maybe, but are you sure the cables are connected to the right ports on the PII? Software settings for passthrough correct? Hardware connection being made with power turned off?
Yup, tried all that. I'm using the latest Picasso96 2.1c and have "Display Chain" enabled through PVS and the tooltypes (that's the only setting I could find that seems to be related to switching). Even the Early Startup screen doesn't display when hooked into the pass-through (monitor flickers for a second and says something about "cannot display this analog mode"), so I don't think it's software-related.
I normally make my connections with the hardware off, but I've noticed the following scenerio:
- Output of Indivision hooked into input on Picasso
- Output of Picasso hooked into LCD monitor
--- System boots but screen remains black, even though once booted into Workbench it should be displaying a PII mode
- If I pull the cable going between the Indivision output to the PII input, then (and only then) will the PII display the Workbench
Seems like I'm getting no love from this card if anything is plugged into it's input. Blargh. :(
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I had friend with a Picasso II in his A3000 but I never got good close look at it. I think he switched to a Retina card if memory serves. I would like to see how this comes out for you.
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Well, crap. Last effort, I hooked up the 23-to-15 pin silver C= adapter and plugged that into the input on the Picasso II, and switched to Multiscan mode. Display came right up. So that solves it, the PII input and switcher work fine, but don't play nice with the output of the Indivision ECS. Wonder how the heck I'm supposed to fix that? :(
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Well, crap. Last effort, I hooked up the 23-to-15 pin silver C= adapter and plugged that into the input on the Picasso II, and switched to Multiscan mode. Display came right up. So that solves it, the PII input and switcher work fine, but don't play nice with the output of the Indivision ECS. Wonder how the heck I'm supposed to fix that? :(
Aren't there options for controlling the Indi ECS output freqs..?
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Tried them all.
"Mode" changes from 1.00 (60Hz) to 1.25 (75Hz), and toggles the built-in Graffiti emulation.
"Video Output" lets you toggle normal, scanlines, or TV emulation.
If you toggle the Display Config from "Internal" to "User" it allows you to flip the Hsync and Vsync from negative to positive. Tried all combinations.
Screen Timing and Screen Position don't seem to do anything on my monitors.
This is with the latest version of the config tool that I'm aware of.
In all cases as soon as I plug the output of the Indi into the PII the screen just goes black. :(
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Even the Early Startup screen doesn't display when hooked into the pass-through (monitor flickers for a second and says something about "cannot display this analog mode"), so I don't think it's software-related.
- If I pull the cable going between the Indivision output to the PII input, then (and only then) will the PII display the Workbench.
...I hooked up the 23-to-15 pin silver C= adapter and plugged that into the input on the Picasso II, and switched to Multiscan mode. Display came right up. So that solves it, the PII input and switcher work fine, but don't play nice with the output of the Indivision ECS...
:(
I also haven't had the best luck replacing CRTs with LCDs. The LCDs seem to clock differently and are more particular about the input. I have often seen that message "cannot display this analog mode". With much more modern graphic cards, those Blue-shelled monitor cables have saved the day with Debian. ;) They are probably a problem for Picasso era cards, though.
I know you don't have any old style CRTs. Right now, they are plentiful in Thrift stores for next to nothing. Next year, they might be hard to find (There is a panic on to recycle them). I'd be interested how your experiments come along with a CRT, even if you don't intend to ultimately keep it in this system.
You have tried other (different spec'd) LCDs?
On the bright side, lots of folks have jumped thru hoops for the novelty of having dual monitors with their computer. :)
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@Oldsmobile_Mike
What make and model of LCD monitor are using with your Indivision ECS? I have a Sony Trinitron I plan to use at first with the Indivision but later I want to replace it with a LCD screen.
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What make and model of LCD monitor are using with your Indivision ECS? I have a Sony Trinitron I plan to use at first with the Indivision but later I want to replace it with a LCD screen.
Hi! My office is primarily a Dell shop, but I've had no problems using about a half-dozen different models of generic Dell business monitors with the Indivision ECS. Mostly I stick to 19" 4:3 models since the Miggy doesn't like widescreen so much, but I did once briefly use a widescreen setup with a super-high res screenmode. Haven't had a chance to try out "HD720" screenmode yet.
I've got an old 1906FP and a 1907FP hooked up right now, on the Indivision and PII, respectively, with no issues. (well, aside from my issue that the PII input pass-through doesn't seem to work with the Indivision output, blargh) I've also hooked up our office projector to my A2000 and used it to play Battlesquadron projected up on the wall, LOL. ;)
At home my A500 is hooked up to a 37" Vizio LCD TV, but I've hooked it to a few other monitors as well. Again, no issues. If you're looking at Dell monitors look for models labeled "Ultrasharp" for best display, and also if you're planning on playing games look for one with a fast refresh rate (<5ms).
IMHO the Indivision is a rock-solid piece of kit for a great price. All these nay-sayers that say an Amiga needs to be hooked up to a CRT monitor to look good need to come visit my office, LOL. ;)
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@Oldsmobile_Mike
OK thanks for the information. I figured the 4:3 would still be the best choice for the Amiga even with the Indivision.
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Does the Indivision ECS have analogue and digital output? I know on the AGA model it can be toggled; I'm wondering if your Indivision may be set to digital, or if set to analgoue+digital if the digital 'noise' is effecting the analogue sync signals (there is some crosstalk/interference on the AGA model). Perhaps the Picasso is particularly fussy?
Of course, this may all be irrelevant for the ECS model...
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Does the Indivision ECS have analogue and digital output? I know on the AGA model it can be toggled; I'm wondering if your Indivision may be set to digital, or if set to analgoue+digital if the digital 'noise' is effecting the analogue sync signals (there is some crosstalk/interference on the AGA model). Perhaps the Picasso is particularly fussy?
Of course, this may all be irrelevant for the ECS model...
Good ideas, AFAIK the Indi ECS only does analog (HD15 VGA output), it doesn't have a digital mode or DVI connector option. The config program for the ECS model seems to have many less options than the AGA version so I don't really know about that stuff. I've got another PII on the way (a Rev. 1.6, my current one is Rev. 1.4), maybe I'll have better luck with a newer model?
Not having much luck with google searching, I vaguely recall seeing someone say they had a PII+ that worked with an Indi, but now I can't find the link for it any more. :( Wonder if I'd have any luck asking Jens?
On the bright side I was showing the system off the other day and people were pretty impressed by my "dual monitor" Amiga, LOL. :crazy:
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I had forgotten the Picasso II came in a + version, A former Amiga user I knew I think had that version in his A3000 but later replaced with a Retina card. Or was it the other way around, Ah it's been over 10 years ago. I would'nt mind having either one of those.
As far as the Indivision ECS, I assume you need a VGA to DVI adapter to use it even with the older Dell Ultrasharp 4:3 ratio monitors?
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All of the monitors we have have HD15 VGA inputs, most also have DVI and either DisplayPort or HDMI connections. Business class products don't eff around. ;) Only thing I wish they had was internal speakers (not for our office users, but for my Miggy, LOL).
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OK that makes sense since those monitors came out ealier (well I assume they older unless they still make 4:3 types) the industry was in a transition stage so they icluded both connector types the same way graphic cards had both VGA and DVI for a while. Some cards still do I think but less and less.
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I"ll take look on Ebay and Craiglist for the Ultrasharp Dell monitors. They should be pretty inexspensive. Hopefully there won't be any dead pixels!
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I found this Dell pc with the monitor, it might be worth buying and installing Linux on it. Then again I would be using the LCD on the Amiga and sticking the old CRT with the Dell if I went that route.
http://tucson.craigslist.org/sys/4285938194.html
On the other hand I found this Ultrasharp monitor in phoenix. I would have to drive 120 miles out of my way but I have family there anyway.
http://phoenix.craigslist.org/nph/sys/4249089056.html
I am really getting ahead of myself here, I do that sometimes when I plan on Amiga and PC upgrades. I need the PSU and adapter cable first, and of course the Indivision ECS. :)
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don't forget the +5V pin resistor
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don't forget the +5V pin resistor
First thing I did. ;)
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First thing I did. ;)
Is that a pin setting/jumper on the Picasso II?
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Is that a pin setting/jumper on the Picasso II?
Resistor on PII needs to be removed for it to work with modern LCD monitors. See this thread for more details:
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=51133
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Just to follow up on this old thread, I've now bought a second PII, this one a Rev. 1.6, still no dice. Neither a 1.4 or 1.6 PII will work at all when Indivision output is plugged into its input port. The screen stays black until the Indivision is unplugged. Both PII's otherwise work fine.
I'm beginning to think there is a fundamental incompatibility between the output on the Indivision and the input/pass-through port on the PII.
I can't really be the only one who's ever tried this, can I?
Should I just keep throwing money at graphics cards and hope one works? Maybe I'd have better luck if I can find a PII+ or a Spectrum? Or should I just give up and buy some kind of external monitor switch, dashing my dreams of the perfect A2000? LOL.
On that note, anyone want to buy a couple Picasso II's? :p (j/k until I can get this resolved)
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Thanks for letting us know. My 2000 is taking the same path as yours(ind ecs), so I was thinking of trying a PII before you posted.
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Bumping this thread of mine since I had a few minutes to play around with my Miggy tonight. Anyone successfully gotten an Indivision ECS to work with any sort of monitor switcher? I got one response in another thread that even external switchers don't work. I'm looking for any confirmation that someone has gotten Indivision ECS output to work with the internal monitor switcher in a Picasso II, PII+, GVP Spectrum, Domino, or Piccolo SD64.
...Probably not applicable to the monitor switches built into the CV64/3D or PIV, since they have their own scan doubler modules, and even if I could afford one I wouldn't want to "break" one of these cards by separating it for ZII.
I don't mind my unique dual monitor Amiga, but, you know, being able to use just one monitor would be nice. ;)
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Know it's of no help, but if you've got space for two monitors that's gotta be the way to go. That's what I'd do.
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Know it's of no help, but if you've got space for two monitors that's gotta be the way to go. That's what I'd do.
At my office I do, but I'm thinking eventually I'd like to take this system home, hook it up to my TV, maybe take it to user group meetings, etc.
Meh, maybe I'll just get one of these, like we have for all our work computers:
http://www.neweggbusiness.com/product/product.aspx?item=9b-24-995-006
I gotta admit, that would look pretty swank sitting on top of an A2000. ;)
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For the heck of it, just tried opening a 320x200x16 color screen on the Indivision and seeing if that would pass-through the PII. No overscan, no nothing. Still no luck, as soon as the cable is connected between the two the screen goes black.
In other words, even if I have a PII screenmode selected and displayed, and nothing coming from the Indivision output, just making that physical connection between Indi output and PII input blanks the PII screen. *sigh*
Need to try ordering that shorter cable. Someone over on Amibay reports that their GVP Spectrum works fine. Anybody have one of those they want to sell, or loan me for testing? Haha. ;)
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All of the monitors we have have HD15 VGA inputs, most also have DVI and either DisplayPort or HDMI connections. Business class products don't eff around. ;) Only thing I wish they had was internal speakers (not for our office users, but for my Miggy, LOL).
I think the sound bars for most dell monitors are cheap on ebay and clip on the monitor(i was given a monitor with one is how i know). anyway,too bad on the gfx card, is that resistor there for the older vesa modes on the pII?
might remove it or snip one leg and see if that has any effect on the pass thru problem- it should'nt but...never know.
Mech
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I already clipped the resistor on both PII's, it was the first thing I did before installing so don't know if it would've made a difference. Thinking about a sound bar too, low priority, LOL. ;)
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Makes me wonder if there are some video pins swapped at one end, wrong polarity. It should work in theory.
Chris
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Since you are still struggling with this, it might be an idea to take into consideration the differences between the old style scandoublers and the Indivision.
It is my understanding that old scandoublers did nothing more than double the output frequency from the Amiga, something which worked fine on crt monitors. Modern lcd monitors on the other hand, are more problematic since they are a bit more picky regarding the frequency. As a result of this, I belive the Indidvision is made to output a little more than just the double of the Amigas frequency, this in order to make it more compatible with modern monitors.
My theory is that the reason for your problems might be because the Picasso II pass-through expects a signal with the same frequency as old style scandoublers. But have in mind that this is just a theory I have, for I'm no expert on this matter.
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My theory is that the reason for your problems might be because the Picasso II pass-through expects a signal with the same frequency as old style scandoublers. But have in mind that this is just a theory I have, for I'm no expert on this matter.
I've tried this. Indivision has a "1.00" mode and a "1.25" mode. In 1.00 mode it outputs a 60Hz (NTSC) signal. 1.25 mode is a multiplier, and outputs at 75Hz. Same thing happens with PAL (50Hz and whatever 1.25 of that is, LOL). Tinkered with the output settings of the Indi for a while, couldn't find anything that worked.
1' cable arrived today. Still no difference. I noticed on boot-up that Workbench displayed for a split-second (using a PII screenmode) then went black and the monitor entered powersaving mode, until I removed the cable going between the Indi and the PII passthrough, at which point Workbench immediately shows up.
Might swap the other PII back in and try with this cable also, just to make sure I'm not losing my mind. Next step might be... I don't know. Pull the Indi ECS from my A500 and test with that one? I've heard GVP Spectrum works, if anyone has one the want to loan me? :roflmao:
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Sure you can take my GVP Spectrum to try it out. I will even swap the GVP for the Picasso II if it works for you...
The GVP is a 2 meg card and works great...
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Well, damn. So I started recording a video to try to explain the issue I was having better, and it seems like I may have figured it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fO4z18HBy0&list=UUf87dyQP0Q50Tmy-H7zqqIQ
It looks like when the Amiga is using the PII to display an image, the Indivision is still outputing some kind of signal. So that's why my screen when black when I plugged in the pass-through - it was trying to display whatever minimal signal the Indi was sending.
I found one thread that mentions this sort of, here: http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=65148
Possible solutions:
- find some sort of software to completely disable Indi output when the PII is on. Maybe a setting in P96, or something in CGX (as mentioned in the above thread). Don't really want to switch to CGX now that I've got P96 working...
- find a video card that ignores this non-signal the Indi is sending out (possibly @matt3k's GVP Spectrum?)
Any other ideas? I'm getting there, I think, sorry for the long rambling video, LOL. ;)
Edit - On second thought, I don't think that is the case, because then when I have an Amiga screenmode displaying through the Indi, if I plug it into the PII it should pass it though. Gaah, this is getting way more complicated than it needs to be. :(
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I may be off base, but wouldn't the RGB signal always be there and PII chooses to pass on? My vote is for frequency/refresh issue? no logs to check?
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OMG.
VICTORY.
How do I make that font size bigger? ;)
After struggling with this for what feels like months, I finally have it working. With significant help form Matt3k and even an email from Jens, I now have my Indivision ECS working with the pass-through connector on a GVP Spectrum. It is everything I'd hoped it would be, and feels great to finally have completed the project. I think now I'm finally "done" with my A2000. I was just browsing the web, looking up articles on Wikipedia, then jumped right into a game of Turrican II, smooth and flawless.
Maybe I can finally close the case up? I think it's been months since I last put its lid on. Although I would like to replace my 4MB GVP simm's with 16MB modules, and I'm sure there's a few more things I can add... hehe. :lol:
I think I will just go to sleep now before I break something or come up with any other crazy ideas. :)
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OMG.
VICTORY.
How do I make that font size bigger? ;)
After struggling with this for what feels like months, it looks as though I finally have it working. With significant help form Matt3k and even an email from Jens, I now have my Indivision ECS working with the pass-through connector on a GVP Spectrum. It is everything I'd hoped it would be, and feels great to finally have completed the project. I think now I'm finally "done" with my A2000. I was just browsing the web, looking up articles on Wikipedia, then jumped right into a game of Turrican II, smooth and flawless.
Maybe I can finally close the case up? I think it's been months since I last put its lid on. Although I would like to replace my 4MB GVP simm's with 16MB modules, and I'm sure there's a few more things I can add... hehe. :lol:
I think I will just go to sleep now before I break something or come up with any other crazy ideas. :)
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So Picasso II was collateral damage then? Sad.
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Something like $500 worth of Picasso II's shipped to the States from Europe, yeah, pretty much. Waiting to hear back from Matt3K if he wants one to complete our deal. I just got tired of beating my head against the wall with them. They work fine, just not in conjunction with the Indivision. That being said: The email I got from Jens suggested connecting a couple pins together on the PII to make it work. It was pretty technical stuff but it looks like the Spectrum already included this fix, so once I got that working I didn't investigate further. Maybe someone more daring than me will try it in the future? ;)
Amiga. What can I say? It's a labor of love. Including all the head-beatings against the wall. :D