Amiga.org
The "Not Quite Amiga but still computer related category" => Alternative Operating Systems => Topic started by: Iggy on December 21, 2013, 03:37:48 AM
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I have Cortex M3 and M4 devices, but I've never bought a Pi.
I think tonight it occurred to me why.
Its too expensive.
Crazy?
Not really.
I'm typing this on a Sun Ultra 20 workstation I purchased recently for $19.95.
Its processor runs about three times faster than the Pi (and if I want, I can run Solaris).
I have also arranged to buy a 650MHz Sun Blade 150 system for $8.99.
Its only slightly slower than the Pi and gives me a chance to check out a new ISA.
So, what good buys have you guys made lately?
Jim
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Well, if you compare to those Suns or general PCs you get for free, I prefer Pi because its low (close to nil) power consumption and noise free operation. I don't feel bad having it running 24/7 :) And it's enough for my server needs... although you have to make compromises and restrict writes, but I'm happy to run it for web/file/irc server. And as a bonus it shows movies nicely.
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Hey guys do u know of any Arm-based puters that have a lot of SATA ports? Like 10 or more?
I would like to have a cheapo Arm-based server that uses little electricity, can handle a lot of connected drives, and could also watch 1080P movies and so forth.
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ARM with SATA still is not that common.
And the few boards I have seen only control two devices.
If we had ARM systems with an expansion bus, then adding additional controllers would be easy.
As to the issue of power draw, one Sun system I have has an Athlon mobile processor in it and is relatively low draw.
And I am not anti-ARM.
I am typing this on a Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 tablet.
I also have some PPC processors I am working with that are low power, but the economic argument goes right out the window with those.
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ARM with SATA still is not that common.
And the few boards I have seen only control two devices.
If we had ARM systems with an expansion bus, then adding additional controllers would be easy.
As to the issue of power draw, one Sun system I have has an Athlon mobile processor in it and is relatively low draw.
And I am not anti-ARM.
I am typing this on a Samsung Galaxy Tab 2 tablet.
I also have some PPC processors I am working with that are low power, but the economic argument goes right out the window with those.
I can find computers in skips more powerful than the Raspberry Pi... But if all you want in a computer is CPU power, then I don't know watch attracted you to the Amiga :-?
For some of us the usefulness equation is more complex:
(software support + performance + smallness+ quietness + modern connectivity) / (power consumption + price + limit of available replacement units)
For personal reasons smallness can refer to several physical quantities, as weight is also a factor for my projects.
And one of my Pis was made in the UK, which is my first computer to be built here since my Sinclair ZX81!
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Raspberry Pi is cute small computer but it is getting old. I dont know if Raspberry Pi 2 is in making but there are better (faster and cheaper) Arm based alternatives you can buy.
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@ bloodline
It was, and still is, the 68K processor.
Although the graphics definately get a nod.
My company's products could match the colors and resolution (and were 68K based -with a better OS I might add), but the Amiga had a much larger software base as well.
That is probably vital to the sucess of any device, software.
Oh, and on cheap ARM systems, I won a Chinese built Rocketchip based 4 core 1.8 GHz A9 set top box for $51 a couple of weeks ago.
So what does the UK built Pi bring to the table that my Chinese device can't wipe off it?
And I wouldn't brag to much about the Sinclair, it had all the reliability of a British automobile or motorcycle (which might explain why the British don't make any of these products anymore).
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I have Cortex M3 and M4 devices, but I've never bought a Pi.
I think tonight it occurred to me why.
Its too expensive.
Crazy?
Not really.
I'm typing this on a Sun Ultra 20 workstation I purchased recently for $19.95.
Its processor runs about three times faster than the Pi (and if I want, I can run Solaris).
I have also arranged to buy a 650MHz Sun Blade 150 system for $8.99.
Its only slightly slower than the Pi and gives me a chance to check out a new ISA.
So, what good buys have you guys made lately?
Jim
I am in the process of buying a $12000 motorbike. Hopefully i can pick it up next week :razz:
@ bloodline
It was, and still is, the 68K processor.
Although the graphics definately get a nod.
My company's products could match the colors and resolution (and were 68K based -with a better OS I might add), but the Amiga had a much larger software base as well.
That is probably vital to the sucess of any device, software.
Oh, and on cheap ARM systems, I won a Chinese built Rocketchip based 4 core 1.8 GHz A9 set top box for $51 a couple of weeks ago.
So what does the UK built Pi bring to the table that my Chinese device can't wipe off it?
And I wouldn't brag to much about the Sinclair, it had all the reliability of a British automobile or motorcycle (which might explain why the British don't make any of these products anymore).
But the British made the Vincent Black Shadow - the best motorbike of all time!
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Raspberry Pi is cute small computer but it is getting old. I dont know if Raspberry Pi 2 is in making but there are better (faster and cheaper) Arm based alternatives you can buy.
Apparently, there is a road map advancing the platform... No idea where that is going though.
I would prefer a Cortex based platform, but I haven't found any of the other SBC ARM platforms which have the feature set at the price of the RaspPi... Yet :)
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@ bloodline
It was, and still is, the 68K processor.
Although the graphics definately get a nod.
My company's products could match the colors and resolution (and were 68K based -with a better OS I might add), but the Amiga had a much larger software base as well.
Shame we never heard of it then..
That is probably vital to the sucess of any device, software.
Of course it is, all new platforms start with nothing... And it doesn't matter how singing and dancing the new one is, find you can't convince developers to use it... It's dead.
Oh, and on cheap ARM systems, I won a Chinese built Rocketchip based 4 core 1.8 GHz A9 set top box for $51 a couple of weeks ago.
Brilliant! I'm in the market for one like that. Link me up!
So what does the UK built Pi bring to the table that my Chinese device can't wipe off it?
If I'm buying a hobby computer for my own pleasure, it's nice to know it was built in the UK. I'm not going to get into a moral discussion here, let's just say I would prefer it if we built more stuff here.
And I wouldn't brag to much about the Sinclair, it had all the reliability of a British automobile or motorcycle (which might explain why the British don't make any of these products anymore).
I'm not bragging about the build quality of British products, I'm well aware of the systematic failure of British industry from the mismanagement of late '60s through the '70s and the keen effort of the successive governments to kill off our manufacturing base. I just happen to like seeing one thing in my flat that doesn't have a "Made in China" sticker on it...
Just as I rather like seeing the "Made in the USA" etching on the back of new iMacs and Mac Pros.
You figure it out ;)
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Where it was made depends on where and when you bought it. Many of them were made in China.
I like the Raspberry Pi because it's a dirt cheap new computer with low power requirements and no noise. I use one as a server for my personal website and for a long running IRC client session. It easily meets the requirements for this and in the long term it's a better option than a throw-away second hand PC.
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bloodline...
I apologize for the entire tone of that post you responded to.
Its far to arrogant.
As to my past endeavors, a few may have seen them. Delmar Company gets brief mention at the end of the Wikipedia listing on the Tandy Color Computer.
And the systems were based on Peripheral Technologies' PT68K4 and PT68K5 boards (which may be a little better known), the former was part of a long series by Peter Stark on construction and then use under Star DOS.
Our systems were either set up for four or more terminals or as a console system with a keyboard and mouse (via the addition of an ET4000 based video card) and ran on Microware OS-9. We also had a X-Windows based windowing system (at a time when Win 3.1 was new).
The Amiga had some neat hardware, but we could support four to five users on our base systems which started at under $1000.
But, as to hobbyist computing, you never have to justify it.
One system I'm building right now uses a 33 MHz Z80 offshoot the Z8S180.
Why, eh, I wanted one.
The Rocketchip box?
I just lucked out on a low bid (that's been happening a lot lately) and those chip have somewhat dodgy wifi.
And why in the world am I so fascinated with RISC?
I don't completely agree that PPC have died out, withered back quite a bit, but they are still being developed.
ARM is just fascinating.
And I really want to try Sparc.
And while I still have and use them, X64 boxes continue to underwhelm me.
As to the Pi, I like the expansion options on some versions.
I have a fondness for small mcu boards with similar expansion capabilities.
Why else would I have both a Cortex M3 and an M4 based board?
I think one of the MorphOS developers recently refereed to all this as "recreational computing".
Good term.
Oh and as unreliable as my old GT-6 was, I'd take it in a heartbeat over a Ford Pinto (hey, both hatchbacks).
Edit - OK...I just used wubi to install Precise Pangolin.
We are giving Ubuntu another shot!
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I am in the process of buying a $12000 motorbike. Hopefully i can pick it up next week :razz:
But the British made the Vincent Black Shadow - the best motorbike of all time!
Um, not to burst your bubble Kesa, but....
1st - I actually sold a $15,000 motorcycle this Spring
2nd - The Vincent would get its fanny dusted by the bike I sold, a 1990 Honda RC30.
edit - Precise Pangolin is not bad.
And it fully supports all the geda tools I need for board layouts.
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Comparing the price of new and second hand hardware is like comparing apples and oranges
How would have cost you these machines when new?
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bloodline...
I apologize for the entire tone of that post you responded to.
Its far to arrogant.
I appreciate your apology, and hope my response was not to acerbic.
As to my past endeavors, a few may have seen them. Delmar Company gets brief mention at the end of the Wikipedia listing on the Tandy Color Computer.
And the systems were based on Peripheral Technologies' PT68K4 and PT68K5 boards (which may be a little better known), the former was part of a long series by Peter Stark on construction and then use under Star DOS.
Our systems were either set up for four or more terminals or as a console system with a keyboard and mouse (via the addition of an ET4000 based video card) and ran on Microware OS-9. We also had a X-Windows based windowing system (at a time when Win 3.1 was new).
The Amiga had some neat hardware, but we could support four to five users on our base systems which started at under $1000.
What made the Amiga special was really the feature set at the price point, in 1987 is was the sweet spot. I feel the raspberry Pi also manage to get the feature set at the price point sweet spot. No one minds spending $25 on a fully featured computer they can plug into their TV...
But, as to hobbyist computing, you never have to justify it.
One system I'm building right now uses a 33 MHz Z80 offshoot the Z8S180.
Why, eh, I wanted one.
The Rocketchip box?
I just lucked out on a low bid (that's been happening a lot lately) and those chip have somewhat dodgy wifi.
And why in the world am I so fascinated with RISC?
I don't completely agree that PPC have died out, withered back quite a bit, but they are still being developed.
ARM is just fascinating.
And I really want to try Sparc.
And while I still have and use them, X64 boxes continue to underwhelm me.
As to the Pi, I like the expansion options on some versions.
I have a fondness for small mcu boards with similar expansion capabilities.
Why else would I have both a Cortex M3 and an M4 based board?
I love the Cortex M series of chips for microcontroller work, they are great... I'm looking at using the M0 based LPC812 to replace my old 8bit ATMega328 designs!
The raspberry Pi has a nice set of GPIO (and no unnecessary devices) and that is appealing to my hobby projects.
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Comparing the price of new and second hand hardware is like comparing apples and oranges
How would have cost you these machines when new?
Oh so true.
The Ultra 20 I'm typing on was a few thousand.
My price?
$19.95 (with a hefty shipping cost - only G5 Apples weigh more than Sun hardware).
Then again, will there be a used market for the Pi (or any ARM device)?
I've always been a hacker, originally by necessity, so building from scratch or modifying used equipment is nothing new to me.
When I was in High School, if you wanted a computer, you built it.
So even now, when the hardware is pretty much ready to go, I mod stuff, its entertaining for me.
My first MorphOS computer? A Quicksilver Power mac the owner thought was dead, $19.95.
I re-seated the cpu card and it was fine.
My latest?
A G5 PCI-E 2.3 model that isn't supported yet (but will be), About $100 and all I need to do is add an ATI video card (I just won that on eBay for 99 cents - no I'm not kidding). this should easily best an X1000.
But in a testament to my truly split personality, I probably will buy one of Trevor's next machines.
Its a system that was somewhat outlined to me by Paul Gentle several years ago (before I knew for sure he had designed the Nemo board).
Its something Andreas Wolfe and I have been waiting for for a long time.
It WILL be cool.
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FCLjLccU2To
I disliked the pi from the beginning but it is the ideal dev target. If it works there it works everywhere else better ; )
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http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FCLjLccU2To
I disliked the pi from the beginning but it is the ideal dev target. If it works there it works everywhere else better ; )
Good point.
Xdelusion does MorphOS program development with an Efika with much the same logic.
The problem is its not 100% true.
The Pi has a really nice, and quite powerful GPU and video decoding section..
In some ways that part is better than many other Socs with more powerful cpus.
If only the Pi was just slightly more powerful.
Even Chinese A7 cores dust an ARM11.
And personally, with the way pricing is going, I'm not going to consider anything less than an A9 dual core.
And next year when ARM goes 64 bit, expect to see these older designs scramble over each other for sales.
Again, I won't complain, its a testament to the superiority of the RISC cpu.
Even Acorn couldn't kill ARM.
Apple may have dealt the PPC a blow, but it was funny to see what everyone used in the last generation of game consoles.
And with Sparc being opened to public development...
Well, X64 will survive, but its still not going to totally dominate, which is fine with me.
The last thing I want to see is the distant descendant of a calculator cpu gaining total control of the computer market.
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Of course your RC30 would wipe the pants off the Vincent the same way my gaming laptop would roll over my A500. I'm disapointed in you Iggy for making that kind of comparison - you should know better ;)
I'm buying a 600cc Yamaha RZ6n.
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Of course your RC30 would wipe the pants off the Vincent the same way my gaming laptop would roll over my A500. I'm disapointed in you Iggy for making that kind of comparison - you should know better ;)
I'm buying a 600cc Yamaha RZ6n.
Don't kill yourself.
The RC30 was actually very easy to ride.
2 strokes, they scare me (although I am considering an RZ350 or an old Road Dog).
There was a guy in New Jersey a few years ago that was selling a 500cc Gamma.
Lovely hardware, but I am not talented enough to ride something like that.
And I sold the RC because I wanted to see it back on the road.
It has to be the neatest bike I have ever been on.
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So, what good buys have you guys made lately?
Jim
Ritter Sport chocolate for 0.59 EUR/100g (IMHO the best normally priced chocolate in Germany, in the higher price domain there are of course other choices like Hachez or Caillers to stay with normal consumer brands). Heck, what is a running computer worth if there's no chocolate within reach?
Have no clue why the dentist sends me season greeting-cards each year though...
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Ritter Sport chocolate for 0.59 EUR/100g (IMHO the best normally priced chocolate in Germany, in the higher price domain there are of course other choices like Hachez or Caillers to stay with normal consumer brands). Heck, what is a running computer worth if there's no chocolate within reach?
Have no clue why the dentist sends me season greeting-cards each year though...
So 0.59 Euros for about a 1/4 lb. of decent quality chocolate.
Yes, that's a good buy (he types while hunched over a cup of chocolate ice cream he suddenly got a mysterious urge to consume).
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Good luck playing 1080p movies using hardware decoding in your shi-tty SPARC stuff, Iggy :D
Or emulating a SEGA CD system at a rock-solid 60FPS with shaders and zero input lag (running X-less, using native Dispmanx+EGL/GLES, and linuxraw as input method, thanks to a properly compiled RetroArch + core).
I prefer my Pis any day of the week over your noisy and power-hungry junk workstation. And my caps won't give the ghost anytime soon, either :D
It's not about raw CPU power. A self-called Amiga user should know it well.
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Good luck playing 1080p movies using hardware decoding in your shi-tty SPARC stuff, Iggy :D
Or emulating a SEGA CD system at a rock-solid 60FPS with shaders and zero input lag (running X-less, using native Dispmanx+EGL/GLES, and linuxraw as input method, thanks to a properly compiled RetroArch + core).
I prefer my Pis any day of the week over your noisy and power-hungry junk workstation. And my caps won't give the ghost anytime soon, either :D
It's not about raw CPU power. A self-called Amiga user should know it well.
I do believe I've been flamed!
Don't sweat it. I've got this.
If the Pi didn't have a really strong GPU and decoding section, that pathetic ARM 11 processor wouldn't be able to handle that either.
And I can do the video without any hardware assist on my G5 under MorphOS thank you.
As to Sparc, you apparently are not that all experienced with this ISA.
Its not designed for that kind of use.
Its designed for threading.
The two older processors that are now open source the UltraSparc T1 and T2 are eight core 64 bit processors that support four threads per core.
Work that out, its 32 concurrent threads.
These are several years old and AMD and Intel still can not match that.
And the T2+?
Supports multiple processors (as does the T3, T4, T5, each successively faster, you get where I'm going with this?).
As far as video decoding goes, I'm pretty sure a Sparc could handle that much better than any ARM processor (especially a single core ARM11) AND still handle 31 other concurrent tasks.
Now, the cheapest Sparc I have on hand cost me $8.99 and runs only about 100 MHz slower than your Pi.
And, its got a real expansion bus, and external video card, a DVD drive, you know real computer accessories.
I've thought about a T2 system, but really those aren't suited to single user functions (I'd never be able to really load it down). AND, the video card support on servers frankly sucks.
Also, my main system is X64 Opteron based.
If I really wanted a Linux monster, I'd buy a relatively cheap eight core AMD processor a lot of memory and some fast drives.
BTW - What is the maximum a Pi can access a drive at?
Can it do RAID?
I have a cheap SCSI Ultra320 RAID array in the Sun I'm typing on now.
Care to compare benchmarks on drive throughput with your Pi?
Why not? This system was about $20 before I added memory (and the drive array and controller I had lying around).
I can buy the extra electricity with the cash left over.
And I'm never going to misplace these bulky monsters.
Honestly, don't tax me comparing toys with business machines.
Its silly.
Jim
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Oh, and the $8.99 system?
I added a PCI expansion card to it for about $39.95 that has 1GB of its own memory and an Athlon Mobile processor running at 1400MHz to run Windows. Is your Pi capable of running Windows under its main OS?
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It's not about raw CPU power. A self-called Amiga user should know it well.
Um, about this last part...
When it was new, the Amiga's 68K processor was a powerhouse compared to other systems.
In fact, until Intel released the 386, Intel cpus could not run some of the more complex code a 68K was capable of.
So yes, it is about the CPU.
And the Amiga had one of the best.
How do you think the Atari ST managed without all the custom chips?
The cpu dude...duh!
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pi can run XBMC media center, San Ultra cannot. Enough for me.
I have Cortex M3 and M4 devices, but I've never bought a Pi.
I think tonight it occurred to me why.
Its too expensive.
Crazy?
Not really.
I'm typing this on a Sun Ultra 20 workstation I purchased recently for $19.95.
Its processor runs about three times faster than the Pi (and if I want, I can run Solaris).
I have also arranged to buy a 650MHz Sun Blade 150 system for $8.99.
Its only slightly slower than the Pi and gives me a chance to check out a new ISA.
So, what good buys have you guys made lately?
Jim
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pi can run XBMC media center, San Ultra cannot. Enough for me.
of coarse an Ultra 20 can run XBMC, its only a PC in a Sun frock!
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I have Cortex M3 and M4 devices, but I've never bought a Pi.
I think tonight it occurred to me why.
Its too expensive.
Crazy?
Not really.
I'm typing this on a Sun Ultra 20 workstation I purchased recently for $19.95.
Its processor runs about three times faster than the Pi (and if I want, I can run Solaris).
I have also arranged to buy a 650MHz Sun Blade 150 system for $8.99.
Its only slightly slower than the Pi and gives me a chance to check out a new ISA.
So, what good buys have you guys made lately?
Jim
IMHO, the Efika MX was a much better buy than the Pi. I have both the "Smarttop" and the "Smartbook". Costed a bit more than the Pi (not that much though), but it offered *considerably* more in terms of performance, features, maturity and functionality.
:)
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Yep i agree but it is a discontinued product. Cubieboard is fine (on par with efika) and brings sata with it.
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Yep i agree but it is a discontinued product. Cubieboard is fine (on par with efika) and brings sata with it.
Interesting piece, the number of options for low cost ARM systems of these kind seems to be increasing all the time! Interesting times ahead!
:)
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Of course your RC30 would wipe the pants off the Vincent the same way my gaming laptop would roll over my A500. I'm disapointed in you Iggy for making that kind of comparison - you should know better ;)
So when you wrote:
"But the British made the Vincent Black Shadow - the best motorbike of all time! "
You really meant:
"But the British made the Vincent Black Shadow - the best motorbike of it's time! "
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of coarse an Ultra 20 can run XBMC, its only a PC in a Sun frock!
Alright!
Somebody with some knowledge. Yes, its a Sun case that is almost identical to its Sparc driven brethren with an off the shelf Tyan server motherboard inside.
Never shipped with Windows, mine is running XP and Ubuntu (because Solaris does not have good browser support - I want Firefox or Chrome).
If you update to a Tyan bios, you even get overclocking options the Sun bios doesn't have (and Opterons overclock really well).
Except for an an above par build quality (right down to having every cable and lead routed and strapped in place) its pure PC.
The Sparc hardware I have is older and pre-dates the really good stuff (which in my opinion starts with the UltraSparc T1).
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So when you wrote:
"But the British made the Vincent Black Shadow - the best motorbike of all time! "
You really meant:
"But the British made the Vincent Black Shadow - the best motorbike of it's time! "
Father!
Yes, and an RC30 is very easy to ride hard, and spanks its 1990 competition.
But today's rides would out distance it when pushed.
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ARM with SATA still is not that common.
And the few boards I have seen only control two devices.
Not a very big problem IMHO, as long as there is a big enough SSD on board and optionally a memory card slot. I have removed the HDD's on my PC, instead I have a big and fast SSD and all the bulk data (music, movies, photos, work stuff, etc) on a mirror-raid NAS that can be reached from all my computers. Works like a charm! :)
If we had ARM systems with an expansion bus, then adding additional controllers would be easy.
Let's see what comes out of this new "Hierofalcon" ARM CPU from AMD (to be sold under the AMD Opteron brand):
- Up to eight 64-bit Cortex-A57 cores (28nm)
- Up to 2GHz
- Dual channel DDR3/4 memory
- a cryptographic co-processor
- 10Gbit/sec Ethernet network connections
- PCI-Express 3
:)
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How do you think the Atari ST managed without all the custom chips?
The cpu dude...duh!
On the other hand, something obviously gave the Amiga edge over the ST. Saying that it's all about the CPU, when talking about Amiga, seems like an under-appreciation of the work they did on the custom chips. To me, it's what gives the Amiga most of its character, and it's definitely why I still use it.
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Yes, and an Amiga is very easy to ride hard, and spanks its 1990 competition.
But today's computers would out distance it when pushed.
;)
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I can find computers in skips more powerful than the Raspberry Pi... But if all you want in a computer is CPU power, then I don't know watch attracted you to the Amiga :-?
For some of us the usefulness equation is more complex:
(software support + performance + smallness+ quietness + modern connectivity) / (power consumption + price + limit of available replacement units)
GPU's can (if you want) boost general performance considerably in all applications where parallel computing makes sense through CUDA / OpenCL.
A lot is happening on the ARM/GPU front currently. Here is "Logan" (Quad ARM Cortex-A15 + low power companion core) with the "Kepler" GPU:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx0t-WJFXzo
[youtube]Vx0t-WJFXzo[/youtube]
Nobody can say that this isn't impressive! :)
It would be cool if someone made a non-handheld system based on this. All ARM, all highly integrated, cool, silent, low watt etc.
:)
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;)
"Amiga is very easy to ride hard, and spanks its 1990 competition.
But today's computers would out distance it when pushed."
Very clever.
And true.
And no one should assume that I am anti-ARM.
I am really looking forward to the quad core A9 device I ordered.
Its under powered ARM devices I am not in favor of.
I have to check out the Soc Grandma mentioned (and yeah, the new Opterons will be very cool).
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On the other hand, something obviously gave the Amiga edge over the ST. Saying that it's all about the CPU, when talking about Amiga, seems like an under-appreciation of the work they did on the custom chips. To me, it's what gives the Amiga most of its character, and it's definitely why I still use it.
Not really.
I still own an Amiga, I sold the ST (although I would like to have a Mega STE).
I think Jay Miner was a genius (Dave Haynie on the other hand, definitely not so much).
As to its character, the 68K is at its core.
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Why not like Dave Haynie? I thought he did a lot for the Amiga. He made the A3000. He must have done something i'm not aware of.
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Why not like Dave Haynie? I thought he did a lot for the Amiga. He made the A3000. He must have done something i'm not aware of.
Dave had a lot of influence on the 2000 as well.
But he has been a little too free with his opinions and misconceptions, and he's no Jay Miner.
Then there is that dreadful C128 that people keep mentioning. A 2 MHz Z-80?
You do realize that that is outperformed by a 1 MHz 6502 (which in itself is not that hot a cpu) don't you?
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Dave had a lot of influence on the 2000 as well.
But he has been a little too free with his opinions and misconceptions, and he's no Jay Miner.
Then there is that dreadful C128 that people keep mentioning. A 2 MHz Z-80?
You do realize that that is outperformed by a 1 MHz 6502 (which in itself is not that hot a cpu) don't you?
The C128 was actually quite cool IMHO, and it was very complex. It was "three computers in one", and it was a dual CPU system that had both a Z-80 @ 4MHz (its 2MHz effective speed was because it had to pause and let the VIC-II chip get access to the system bus) *and* a 8502 (an improved 6502 that ran in either 1MHz or 2MHz depending on the current mode the computer operated in). The 128D had even a 6502 present (in its disk drive, which actually was a computer by itself just like the external 1541/1581).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_128
http://hackaday.com/2013/12/09/guest-post-the-real-story-of-hacking-together-the-commodore-c128/
:)
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The C128 was actually quite cool IMHO, and it was very complex. It was "three computers in one", and it was a dual CPU system that had both a Z-80 @ 4MHz (its 2MHz effective speed was because it had to pause and let the VIC-II chip get access to the system bus) *and* a 8502 (an improved 6502 that ran in either 1MHz or 2MHz depending on the current mode the computer operated in). The 128D had even a 6502 present (in its disk drive, which actually was a computer by itself just like the external 1541/1581).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_128
http://hackaday.com/2013/12/09/guest-post-the-real-story-of-hacking-together-the-commodore-c128/
:)
At what point did either of us ever become humble?
And I just do not like this things design.
Instead of three crappy cpus, why not use one decent one?
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Instead of three crappy cpus, why not use one decent one?
Because that was NOT the point of the C128 project ?
You know C= did have some plans for a "16Bit" computer, that was canned when the purchased Amiga, the 128 was meant to the last&best of all 8Bits.
As such it needed compability with the C64 and it's massive SW pool, the Z80 was added to add "pro" level CPM-SW. The 3rd CPU was in the diskdrive, cos thats how all C= 8Bit floppies flew.
Was the whole concept smart ? Or maybe just a few years late ?
Doubt that was a decision Dave and the engeneering team could make, but for what was demaned/allowed by managment they sure came along with a hell of a puter.
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the best motorbike of it's time! "
Das beste Motorrad aus es ist Zeit!
(he - his, she - her, it - its. it's = it is)
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If we are going to go off topic: The main drawback was a lack of hard drive and to a lesser extent the 880k floppies. Too much hassle for software companies. That was pre cd-rom era.
Also wouldn't you want to have jumped on the PowerPC bandwagon, but I think that was when C= was almost bankrupt.
@above The Amiga uses co-processors. Printers will have a cpu in them too.
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Instead of three crappy cpus, why not use one decent one?
Well, it was going to be an 8-bit computer, and it was going to have full C64 compatibility which certainly limited the CPU options, but it was also to be a sequel to the C64 (bigger, better, more) so a CPU with double clock frequency was developed (with a "slow mode" for C64 and VIC compatibility) and the CP/M needed the Z-80.
Sure, it was a hack, and the specs was never something the market had demanded/wanted (but neither something that was decided by the developers). The whole computer is improbable, it shouldn't exist. But it does and they got it together pretty well under rather extreme conditions, and it's working (although it was supposed to be able to run CP/M with the VDC chip as well, which would enable the full 4MHz of the Z-80). It's something highly unique, and IMHO it was sort of a suitable end for the 8-bit home computer era, the C128 ended it (some time overdue) with a big bang of extravaganza.
A Commodore 65 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_65) shortly after the first Amiga models should probably have made better sense than the C128, and it could possibly have sustained the 8-bit home computing platform a bit longer (1990 was too late IMHO), but this is in retrospect, and it's easy to be "wise" when looking back with all the answers at hand.
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There we agree tmhgm, the C65 would have been an excellent machine.
The two show entirely different approaches.
The C128 was full of kludged add ons, where as the C65 was an nice evolution of the original.
And CP/M, why?
It was pretty much dead by then anyway.
And it doesn't use graphics or sound.
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Because that was NOT the point of the C128 project ?
You know C= did have some plans for a "16Bit" computer, that was canned when the purchased Amiga, the 128 was meant to the last&best of all 8Bits.
As such it needed compability with the C64 and it's massive SW pool, the Z80 was added to add "pro" level CPM-SW. The 3rd CPU was in the diskdrive, cos thats how all C= 8Bit floppies flew.
Was the whole concept smart ? Or maybe just a few years late ?
Doubt that was a decision Dave and the engeneering team could make, but for what was demaned/allowed by managment they sure came along with a hell of a puter.
Gee Dad, hell is the only word were are in agreement on for this device.
And Commodore had a 16 bit machine, which they didn't develop that well either.
I mean, why is AGA so slow?
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So when you wrote:
"But the British made the Vincent Black Shadow - the best motorbike of all time! "
You really meant:
"But the British made the Vincent Black Shadow - the best motorbike of it's time! "
Now you are assuming i am a rational human being...
Ps - red bikes go faster!
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Now you are assuming i am a rational human being...
Ps - red bikes go faster!
"red bikes go faster!"...than blue light in a vacuum.
And most ARM devices go faster than a Pi.