Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: Tenacious on November 28, 2013, 05:06:56 AM
-
I like BetterWB, but, I like OS2.1 for ECS Amigas (Don't want to run OS3.1 in all of them ;)). I might not be the only one. What are your favorite enhancements for OS2.1?
C:?
Devs:?
L:?
Libs:?
System?
Tools?
Utilities?
Other?
-
I am just curious of the reasons you have to avoid 3.1
Yo can get 3.1 for almost nothig, burn your own rom or even softkick it, and it has a lot of enhancement and bugfixes.
-
Hi Gulliver
I'm not avoiding 3.1, most of my machines run KS3.1;). OTOH, I'm reluctant to abandon all examples of Amiga OS evolution, especially OS2.1 and 1.3.
I've read many times about how superior 3.1 is over 2.1. Being a simple user (not a degree'd computer scientist), I'm often hard pressed to confirm that it really is a huge improvement, especially on older OCS and ECS Amigas. Some off-the-cuff specifics, the Datatypes scheme is OK on a fast Amiga, but dog-slow on lower spec models. I frequently use my favorite datatype-unaware utilities for speed, even on the 060 model. Also, the palette prefs on 3.1 seem like a leap backward compared to OS2.1. Someone wrote a wonderful animated busy pointer that I cannot get working with KS3.1. Etcetera.
Frankly, I have a great respect for the one-stop compilation of updates and improvements you have organized for OS3.1. You did an excellent and thorough job! :) Whenever I reformat and reload the OS, your BetterWB is the first enhancement I install.
My intent here was to explore what updates could be applied to OS2.1. I think it is worth having a 'living' example that can read long-file-name CDs, swap icon images without renaming, etc. If there are bug-fixed libraries and device handlers for OS2.1 too, I was hoping folks would share them in this thread.
-
I am just curious of the reasons you have to avoid 3.1
Yo can get 3.1 for almost nothig, burn your own rom or even softkick it, and it has a lot of enhancement and bugfixes.
Actually improvements in OS 3 are rather small and you can save some precious memory with older versions.
-
I like BetterWB, but, I like OS2.1 for ECS Amigas (Don't want to run OS3.1 in all of them ;)). I might not be the only one. What are your favorite enhancements for OS2.1?
C:?
Devs:?
L:?
Libs:?
System?
Tools?
Utilities?
Other?
I think I get your thinking. I usually go with AGA machines and 3.1 or 3.9 but have some A600 that I tend to use just KS2 and WB2.1 on and some A500 that I keep WB1.3 on, not because I prefer the older OS but I keep them for history and want the right OS to go with that.
I guess MagicWB and Nickprefs isn't what you're thinking (talking about BetterWB). ;)
-
You could install Magic Workbench.
http://guide.abime.net/wb2.x/chap3.htm
-
I've read many times about how superior 3.1 is over 2.1. Being a simple user (not a degree'd computer scientist), I'm often hard pressed to confirm that it really is a huge improvement, especially on older OCS and ECS Amigas. Some off-the-cuff specifics, the Datatypes scheme is OK on a fast Amiga, but dog-slow on lower spec models. I frequently use my favorite datatype-unaware utilities for speed, even on the 060 model. Also, the palette prefs on 3.1 seem like a leap backward compared to OS2.1. Someone wrote a wonderful animated busy pointer that I cannot get working with KS3.1. Etcetera.
My intent here was to explore what updates could be applied to OS2.1. I think it is worth having a 'living' example that can read long-file-name CDs, swap icon images without renaming, etc. If there are bug-fixed libraries and device handlers for OS2.1 too, I was hoping folks would share them in this thread.
The way you explain it, sounds pretty reasonable.
If only I could manage to get a little more free time before Christmas I may give this concept a go.
Suggestion: Why dont you start with BetterWB as a basis and then remove/replace components that are not 2.1 compatible? It shouldnt be that hard, and I can help you if you run into trouble.
Off topic: I thought on doing an enhanced AmigaOS 1.3.x version just for the fun, hard retro feeling and simplicity it delivers. But if that happens, it will surely be next year.
-
Actually improvements in OS 3 are rather small and you can save some precious memory with older versions.
I dont think the 2.x to 3.x update is minor.
Just take a look at this:
http://www.gregdonner.org/workbench/wb_30chg.lha
and add
http://www.gregdonner.org/workbench/wb_31chg.lha
-
I dont think the 2.x to 3.x update is minor.
Just take a look at this:
http://www.gregdonner.org/workbench/wb_30chg.lha
and add
http://www.gregdonner.org/workbench/wb_31chg.lha
There are very little bug fixes and even less new features relevant to users. Developers may be happy that there are new functions to reduce code size. Commodore had very small team working on the software.
-
Just for the heck of it I made one of my A600 with ACA630, kickswitch (2.05 and 3.1) and several other hardware upgrades into a mix of AmigaOS having WB1.3, WB2.1, OS3.1 and OS3.9 installed on seperat partitions and a custom Startup-Seq to highlight best compatible OS depending on CPU/KS in use. Still haven't installed my Kickswitch supporting 3 ROM's as I have to get my custom 1.3 ROM with A600 scsi.dev Image splitted and burnt to two ROMs for the KS switch so currently WB1.3 runs under KS2 and have included a temporary softkick option for KS1.3.
Anyway to make it more divert I chuse to run WB2.1 in 4 colors, OS3.1 in 8 colors MagicWB and OS3.9 with GlowIcons. It uses the standard Icons for the respective system partitions and for the shared Work and Games partitions I use custom Icons based on MagicWB but palette edited so the colors don't get all screwed up in 4 colors (meening light gray and brown have to go), I then converted 3.9 glowicons to newicons and added that tooltype to the edited icons. With WB1.3's inverted palette there's nothing much to do about the look, it will get messed up but the result under WB2.1 is a 4 color MagicWB look, almost normal MagicWB look under OS3.1 and GlowIcons look under OS3.9. :D
-
Classic Workbench has an Amiga OS2.1 build with updates: classicwb.abime.net
It has a standard blue color scheme or custom "Green Alien" color scheme. It was designed for a Hi-Res (non-interlaced) screen. Besides 2.0/2.1 updates, it also has an unregistered WHLoad installed on it. Could be a good base for a OS2.1 build.
I like BetterWB, but, I like OS2.1 for ECS Amigas (Don't want to run OS3.1 in all of them ;)). I might not be the only one. What are your favorite enhancements for OS2.1?
C:?
Devs:?
L:?
Libs:?
System?
Tools?
Utilities?
Other?
-
If only I could manage to get a little more free time before Christmas I may give this concept a go.
Suggestion: Why dont you start with BetterWB as a basis and then remove/replace components that are not 2.1 compatible? It shouldnt be that hard, and I can help you if you run into trouble.
It's exciting to think what the results of this might be. Right now, I'm in the same boat as you, this next month is a very busy time. However, I have an A2000 with nothing more than OS2.1 on the HD, ready to go.
Perhaps the most obvious addition to 3.1 for the average user is Multiview. Commodore apparently promoted it as the default viewer using datatypes (instead of MuchMore, Viewtek, etc). There are a handful of 2.1-compatible multiview clones on Aminet. I'm going to begin by trying each of those.
I have another empty A2000 with 3.1 and BetterWB installed. It shouldn't be hard to pull various BetterWB components and try them under 2.1. ;)
-
I guess MagicWB and Nickprefs isn't what you're thinking (talking about BetterWB). ;)
Ultimately, I do want MagicWB and Nickprefs compatibility and the option to use them in my Amiga.
I'm simply wanting to explore ways to make everything 'under the hood' the best it can be (bug-fixed), a living version of 2.1 that will be viable into the future. An alternative to the 3.1 path (datatypes, etc) for OCS and ECS Amigas.
In the end, OS2.1 might be the preferred 'leaner' OS for modest 500s and 600s.
-
I did a clean hard drive install of both AmigaOS 2.1 and 3.1.
You only save a little bit less than 5KB memory with 2.1 but you will loose all bugfixes and enhancements I mentioned before.
It seems it is definately not worth the downgrade.
-
I did a clean hard drive install of both AmigaOS 2.1 and 3.1.
You only save a little bit less than 5KB memory with 2.1 but you will loose all bugfixes and enhancements I mentioned before.
It seems it is definately not worth the downgrade.
I'm still up to my butt in alligators, :)
If I understand you correctly, you simply installed a fresh copy of OS2.1 and loaded BetterWB on top (the same proceedure as if it was OS3.1)? If true, that's very easy. Sadly, I haven't had time to even try this yet. Next month looks better.
-
I'm still up to my butt in alligators, :)
If I understand you correctly, you simply installed a fresh copy of OS2.1 and loaded BetterWB on top (the same proceedure as if it was OS3.1)? If true, that's very easy. Sadly, I haven't had time to even try this yet. Next month looks better.
No, maybe I didnt explain it correctly.
All I did was a clean install with no extra software on the same hardware, first with 3.1 and then after formating, with 2.1. This was just to test the actual benefits of using 2.1 over 3.1.
The thing is that 3.1 only uses about 4KB more of memory than 2.1 and has a lot of bugfixes and enhancements. So despite what others said, there is clearly no reason to stick with 2.1.
-
Unless you don't want to pay for a 3.1-ROM.
-
Unless you don't want to pay for a 3.1-ROM.
They're $17 at AmigaKit or Ebay. Killing me man, you guys are killing me. :destroy:
LOL. ;)
-
Buy the ROMS and install 3.1.
-
I'm also interested. Nobody has answered to actual question :(
I have installed NewIcons, but not icons itself, just to be able to display new icons of whdload games. It was bit a difficult to found wb2.1 compatiable installer. Seems that some whdload games doesn't have that tiny 1mmx1mm icon, wich causes graphic corruption when folder window opens. New Icons requires classact? and it was also difficult to found.
MagicWB for better lookin icons, though I don't thing that magicwb icons look nice, but couldn't found any other icon set for wb2.1
Some wb menu editing tools and icon border remover from aminet
-
There's a lot of enhancements in OS3.1 compared to OS2.1. Eg. RTG. And a lot of software that requires OS3.0 or better. Personally I'd suggest upgrading to OS3.9, I never regretted it.
-
Maybe, but it doesn't offer any upgrades over 2.1. With my A500 I just play with whdload games.
I have several A1200 amigas with 3.1 and I like to have one with OS2.1
-
The way you explain it, sounds pretty reasonable.
If only I could manage to get a little more free time before Christmas I may give this concept a go.
Suggestion: Why dont you start with BetterWB as a basis and then remove/replace components that are not 2.1 compatible? It shouldnt be that hard, and I can help you if you run into trouble.
.
Gulliver, I finally got some free time to look at the enhancements included in BetterWB and filter those that are compatible with OS2.1. It turns out that the majority of the programs that you assembled into BWB are also 2.1 compatible. In fact, it is much simpler to instead list those that require OS3.x. Naturally, the improved Data types are useless in OS2.1. So, here's the list of 3.1 specific stuff:
Finder 2.06
Fullpalette (IMHO, the Palette.prefs from OS2.1 is superior to the one supplied with OS3.1. I'm not sure a palette locker is needed.)
IconAppearer
ILBM data type
JFifDT data type
PCX data type
PNG data type
Speak-handler (Apparently, this is NOT the last Speak-handler that Commodore included with OS2.04)
Targa data type
TextDT data type
TIFF data type
UnixDirs3
Visage39.22 (I will miss this one!)
WaveDT data type
A surprisingly short list, especially if the data types are excluded. Those above were the enhancements that clearly stated in their docs that OS3.x IS required.
The following is a list whose docs did not specify any OS requirement.
Avail (command replacement)
Boards
CX
Fat95
Mathtrans (originally Quicktrans on Aminet)
Monitor drivers
Next (text reader, I like this one. TextView is also very good!)
PSort
Serial (ArtSer) (There are other (faster?) serial replacements, like New8N1 on Aminet)
SmartWin
SwazInfo
XPKmaster
Another short list that needs to be checked for 2.1 compatibility.
Since 2.1 did not include Multiview, there are a number 3rd party substitutions that simulate its functionality. I have yet to evaluate those. The one written in E looks interesting.
-
@Tenacious
Well done!
Now I will play a bit with your findings and report back :)
-
You're the originator of this excellent package. Thank You!
-
Gulliver, I finally got some free time to look at the enhancements included in BetterWB and filter those that are compatible with OS2.1. It turns out that the majority of the programs that you assembled into BWB are also 2.1 compatible. In fact, it is much simpler to instead list those that require OS3.x. Naturally, the improved Data types are useless in OS2.1. So, here's the list of 3.1 specific stuff:
Finder 2.06
Fullpalette (IMHO, the Palette.prefs from OS2.1 is superior to the one supplied with OS3.1. I'm not sure a palette locker is needed.)
IconAppearer
ILBM data type
JFifDT data type
PCX data type
PNG data type
Speak-handler (Apparently, this is NOT the last Speak-handler that Commodore included with OS2.04)
Targa data type
TextDT data type
TIFF data type
UnixDirs3
Visage39.22 (I will miss this one!)
WaveDT data type
A surprisingly short list, especially if the data types are excluded. Those above were the enhancements that clearly stated in their docs that OS3.x IS required.
The following is a list whose docs did not specify any OS requirement.
Avail (command replacement)
Boards
CX
Fat95
Mathtrans (originally Quicktrans on Aminet)
Monitor drivers
Next (text reader, I like this one. TextView is also very good!)
PSort
Serial (ArtSer) (There are other (faster?) serial replacements, like New8N1 on Aminet)
SmartWin
SwazInfo
XPKmaster
Another short list that needs to be checked for 2.1 compatibility.
Since 2.1 did not include Multiview, there are a number 3rd party substitutions that simulate its functionality. I have yet to evaluate those. The one written in E looks interesting.
Okay, I played a bit with your information:
Finder 2.06 could be replaced by FindMe 1.3 (Aminet)
To be able to display JPG, GIF and ILBM files you could use ViewTek (Aminet)
To play WAV files you could use the old Play16 v1.8 which works on 68000 (http://cd.textfiles.com/amigaplus/lesercd16/CD_System/Play16/)
UnixDirs3 can be replaced by UnixDirsII (Aminet)
New8N1 is a rather incomplete but faster serial.device. It will work depending both on the configuration of your device and the application you are using. I recommend you keep artser unless you really know what you are doing, because New8N1 will fail under some circumstamces.
The list you mentioned that the docs have no specific requirements stated, should work (I havent tested your Next/Textview propositions though!)
And as you mentioned, mv2_x.lha seems a reasonable multiview replacement if you get it compiled and linked. You could even adjust it to use both Play16 and ViewTek.
-
Okay, I played a bit with your information:
Finder 2.06 could be replaced by FindMe 1.3 (Aminet)
To be able to display JPG, GIF and ILBM files you could use ViewTek (Aminet)
To play WAV files you could use the old Play16 v1.8 which works on 68000 (http://cd.textfiles.com/amigaplus/lesercd16/CD_System/Play16/)
UnixDirs3 can be replaced by UnixDirsII (Aminet)
New8N1 is a rather incomplete but faster serial.device. It will work depending both on the configuration of your device and the application you are using. I recommend you keep artser unless you really know what you are doing, because New8N1 will fail under some circumstamces.
The list you mentioned that the docs have no specific requirements stated, should work (I havent tested your Next/Textview propositions though!)
And as you mentioned, mv2_x.lha seems a reasonable multiview replacement if you get it compiled and linked. You could even adjust it to use both Play16 and ViewTek.
Thanks for the quick feedback.
I should have mentioned that I loaded BWB some months ago (it's not your very latest) and then added some of my favorites (Ordering?, ViewTek?, Play16?, TextView?, Next?, not very many) on top. Then I lost track if some of them were part of your package or if I added them. :) Sorry. To get the lists, I simply went thru my Help directory and read every doc (this took some time).
I think the packages I most need to test are Fat95, QuickTrans, Next, SwazInfo, and XPXmaster.
I remember abandoning AmiCDFS years ago because I could not get it to read CDs with long filenames. I went to AsimCDFS. Since then, I have read that you and others (Camy?) did get AmiCDFS to read longfile names. I need to check into this. Asim is a really large package with more than I want.
If you have the info handy, do you remember what would cause New8N1 to fail?
-
If you have the info handy, do you remember what would cause New8N1 to fail?
No problem. The thing is that New8N1 will only work if the serial port is configured this way:
8 data bits
No parity
1 stop bit
RTS/CTS handshaking
No handshaking
EOFMODE
It also supports sending breaks, but not receiving them.
It works most of the time because this configuration is very common.
-
I think the packages I most need to test are Fat95, QuickTrans, Next, SwazInfo, and XPXmaster.
Fat95 and XPKmaster will work, I can confirm it.
Next requires 3.x so it wont cut it, but TextView will work.
-
Well, having a list of what does not work with OS2.1 is not nearly as useful as its inverse, a list of compatible software. So, here is a preliminary list of compatible OS2.1 enhancements, mostly from Gulliver's BetterWB.
ABackup
ACDplay
AddTools
AltTab
AmiCDFS 2.40
AssignWedge
Avail
Boards
Break
ClickNot
CopyRelace
CX
DiskValid
DirWork1.62
Fat95
FFS w/TD64
FindMe1.3
GrabIFF
HDinstTools
Info
Installer v43
JazTools
Join
LHA
MathTrans (QuickTrans)
MinStack
MyFormat
Ordrering (my favorite DirUtil)
PatchRam
PFS3
Play16 (v1.8 for 68000 processors)
Port-Handler
Queue-Handler
ReqTools v2.9
SCSImounter
Serial (ArtSer v37.6)
SerialPrefs
SetJoyPort
ShowConfigENH
SnoopDos
SuperDuper
TextEngine
TextView v1.25
ToolAlias
TotalCalc
UnixDirs2
Version
ViewTek
WBgauge v1.2
WBrun
XPKmaster
Untested Multiview substitutes:
2B_mv_OS2 (usesFIDlib80 - the latest can ID 600 filetypes)
DropAct20
MV2_X
These 3 claim 2.1 compatibility. I used MV2_X years ago. IIRC, it must be compiled with the users preferred viewers and their paths, it's not difficult. The other 2 boast a prefs editor.
Other viewers:
FastView (untested, on Aminet)
Dyna-Show
Shazam (also for Dynamic Hi-Res, untested)
Other small enhansements:
Snap and PowerSnap
SpeechToy2 (needs the Speak files last included with OS1.3 and 2.04)
BusyPointer (eyecandy, untested)
MultiDos (a free CrossDos-like package, on Aminet)
XDME (Text editor, an old favorite)
Redit (recently mentioned here, untested, looks interesting)
Most of the first list is available in BetterWB, everything else should be on Aminet.
-
Other viewers:
FastView (untested, on Aminet)
Dyna-Show
Shazam (also for Dynamic Hi-Res, untested)
From this list I would only choose FastView (and even discard Viewtek) as this app is the one that supports more image types. Remember you should include multipic.library which enables even more types (grab multipic.library from Aminet´s WBView094.lha
Other small enhansements:
Snap and PowerSnap
SpeechToy2 (needs the Speak files last included with OS1.3 and 2.04)
BusyPointer (eyecandy, untested)
MultiDos (a free CrossDos-like package, on Aminet)
XDME (Text editor, an old favorite)
Redit (recently mentioned here, untested, looks interesting)
I would use PowerSnap instead of Snap, as it is much easier to use and configure. Snap is very powerful but difficult to figure it out.
Redit seems a nice choice.
I may probably try to include this last two on a future BetterWB release.
-
I did a clean hard drive install of both AmigaOS 2.1 and 3.1.
You only save a little bit less than 5KB memory with 2.1 but you will loose all bugfixes and enhancements I mentioned before.
It seems it is definately not worth the downgrade.
I'm not sure there is much enhancements for ECS Amigas, 3.x main enhancements was the support of AGA chipset.
I've never seen the point of upgrading my A600 to 3.1, it does everything fine on 2.1.
This pack is good enhancement for 2.1:
http://classicwb.abime.net/classicweb/gaae.htm
-
From this list I would only choose FastView (and even discard Viewtek) as this app is the one that supports more image types. Remember you should include multipic.library which enables even more types (grab multipic.library from Aminet´s WBView094.lha
Good Morning Gulliver
If I'm reading you correctly, FastView will make use of the MultiPic.library to display even more image types? This would be good. I couldn't find any docs on FastView and only the one archive (WBView094) that seems utilizes this library. I agree it would be great to have a fast, small, comprehensive image viewer for OCS and ECS 68000 Amigas. ;)
I would use PowerSnap instead of Snap, as it is much easier to use and configure. Snap is very powerful but difficult to figure it out.
Redit seems a nice choice.
I may probably try to include this last two on a future BetterWB release.
I haven't had the chance to play with Redit yet. It looks promising.
I have an A600HD with 4MB of PCMCIA fast memory. This may be a better test platform than the A2000 (68030) for some of the packages.
-
I'm not sure there is much enhancements for ECS Amigas, 3.x main enhancements was the support of AGA chipset.
I've never seen the point of upgrading my A600 to 3.1, it does everything fine on 2.1.
This pack is good enhancement for 2.1:
http://classicwb.abime.net/classicweb/gaae.htm
I haven't tried this package yet. While scanning over the website months ago, I got the impression that the focus was primarily about improving the appearance of WB (a good thing!). Are bugfixes and extensions of the OS's abilities included as well?
-
I haven't tried this package yet. While scanning over the website months ago, I got the impression that the focus was primarily about improving the appearance of WB (a good thing!). Are bugfixes and extensions of the OS's abilities included as well?
Good afternoon Tenacious:
Yep, the focus is on eye candy and adding some applications which of course make it a little bit more memory hungry.
-
Good Morning Gulliver
If I'm reading you correctly, FastView will make use of the MultiPic.library to display even more image types? This would be good. I couldn't find any docs on FastView and only the one archive (WBView094) that seems utilizes this library. I agree it would be great to have a fast, small, comprehensive image viewer for OCS and ECS 68000 Amigas. ;)
Yes you are correct. FastView looks very good featurewise. I havent tested it properly yet.
And it seems there is no PNG support at all for low end 68000 Amigas :(
-
Latest Update. I got it working!
I installed a fresh OS2.1 on an A600HD with 4 MB of PCMCIA fast memory. My last disk (Fonts) had an error, so the install script didn't finish. Fortunately, this is an Amiga, and all is well. ;) Had it been a Mac, the OS would not have validated and never have been allowed to work from the HD.
Next, I commented all the original OS files (in C:, Libs:, etc) as "Original OS2.1" for my own tracking purposes. In the future, any files without this comment are obviously new.
I then added empty directories to my 2.1 partition that mimic those locations on an OS3.1 install.
Classes/Datatypes/ & Gadgets/
Devs/DataTypes/
Locale/Help/
Storage/DataTypes
Next, I installed BWB 3.4 (The last version I wrote to floppies. I should have used the last release). The install script executed without a hitch.
The following BWB additions need to be removed/replaced, since they are NOT 2.1 compatible:
Finder, FullPallett, IconAppearer, and UnixDirs3. The Speak-Handler needs to be replaced with the last one Commodore included with OS1.3 or 2.05. The new Prefs/WBPattern needs to be replaced with the original from OS2.1.
Finally, I think HELP: needs an assignment in the SS since it didn't exist before.
Everything I have tested works beautifully so far. I am pleased. Thank you Gulliver!