Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Marketplace => Topic started by: sprocket on November 07, 2013, 08:05:37 PM
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FA or Buy It Now
Very Rare!
Ralph Babel's
"The Amiga Guru Book A Reference Manual"
736 pgs.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/301010814417
thanks for your interest.
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I have NO doubt someone will buy this.
But it definitely looks like a candidate for "Are we still talking about...".
Kinda reminds me of the guys on eBay selling PDF copies of the Tandy Color Computer Service Manual (which, curiously enough, can be downloaded for free on the internet).
So...is there any Amiga documentation you can NOT get on the internet?
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If you're serious about programming for the Amiga, and want a serious reference you must have this book.
I have no doubt there are many who've never seen this book (it is self published and very rare) who assume it's just 'another' Amiga reference.
Sure, you can probably find some really bad scan of this online somewhere which is why Ralph will never publish a 2nd edition (which he had been planning until he found a terrible scanned version on some torrent)....but if you're serious, that isn't going to help you much. You can't search it, and you can't flip back and forth to find anything in any way that won't have you hating the process until you give up.
Seriously, if you need a real reference, you need this book, and anyone who knows anything about it would tell you that.
The book originally sold for about $60, and routinely still sells for $120-220. That should tell you something about its rarity, and its substance.
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Sure, you can probably find some really bad scan of this online somewhere which is why Ralph will never publish a 2nd edition (which he had been planning until he found a terrible scanned version on some torrent)....but if you're serious, that isn't going to help you much. You can't search it, and you can't flip back and forth to find anything in any way that won't have you hating the process until you give up.
There is a good quality scan version of it, you can search in it and it has a chapter menu so ther is a good one out there, but as you say nothing beats the original, if I could spare the cash right now I would buy it :).
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You don't need an expensive book to do serious Amiga programming. The whole notion seems absurd.
There is a good quality scan version of it, you can search in it and it has a chapter menu so ther is a good one out there, but as you say nothing beats the original, if I could spare the cash right now I would buy it :).
Nothing beats a properly scanned version that's searchable. Much preferable to a paper version which can't be searched. Major back draw of books, IMHO.
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The fact you reference Ralph's first edition online, is why he never released a second edition. This is what happens when "copyright material is copied." Why work away on a manuscript for free, or why develops new software? Just abandon the platform and get a job you get paid for. One can't feed their family on the results of hard work that is stolen from them.
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You don't need an expensive book to do serious Amiga programming. The whole notion seems absurd.
Nothing beats a properly scanned version that's searchable. Much preferable to a paper version which can't be searched. Major back draw of books, IMHO.
You are right, But nothing beats owning the original for me even if I use the digital one more, the feeling of having the real thing is nice :)
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You don't need an expensive book to do serious Amiga programming. The whole notion seems absurd.
Nothing beats a properly scanned version that's searchable. Much preferable to a paper version which can't be searched. Major back draw of books, IMHO.
No, you don't NEED a reference to program, but it sure helps if you want to get into the guts of things!
A searchable scanned version beats a paper version? To each their own.
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The fact you reference Ralph's first edition online, is why he never released a second edition. This is what happens when "copyright material is copied." Why work away on a manuscript for free, or why develops new software? Just abandon the platform and get a job you get paid for. One can't feed their family on the results of hard work that is stolen from them.
Agreed! ...and as much a reason not to scan and post really well done, self published work like this as any!
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You don't need an expensive book to do serious Amiga programming. The whole notion seems absurd.
Nothing beats a properly scanned version that's searchable. Much preferable to a paper version which can't be searched. Major back draw of books, IMHO.
As someone that just posted a flat earther comment in favor of books, on this point I would agree.
Good, well indexed reference material, online wins hands down every time.
After all, you don't see anybody buying encyclopedias anymore, do you?
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No, you don't NEED a reference to program
I didn't say you don't need a reference manual, I said that you don't need an expensive book.
Agreed! ...and as much a reason not to scan and post really well done, self published work like this as any!
You could buy a book and scan it, or download a scanned version of it. It would be even better if technical books came with a digital version.
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Do you not understand the concept of Copyright? If AFTER YOU FIRST BOUGHT (that means PAID FOR) his book and being unable to read and reference it, you then "scanned it" for YOUR OWN USE and not to defraud the author, then you can have an opinion on whether a scanned version is better than a paper version.
I own a real and valid copy of his book and see no need in a scanned version and I also have a copy of the Encyclopedia Britannica. You know they both have this old thing called an "Index."
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@ dan
Not to sound snide (but we all should focus on what we are good at).
So, this is a property rights issue and we are costing this guy money because this was going to be a perennial best seller?
Maybe its the '60s anarchist in me, but for some reason your argument makes me think of Abbie Hoffman's book "Steal This Book".
F'k it.
Freedom of information.
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I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying; "Those who are good at stealing should do so?'
"Those who can, do; those who can't, teach; those who can't teach, defraud, cheat steal and on the side, teach gym?" Abbie Hoffman was selling himself and activism, not stealing the hard work of others, and was so happy with his life he later committed suicide. You can be like him at any time.
Not respecting copyrights has damaged this community far worse the the Gould betrayal of Tramiel and Commodore.
So time to take a stand: Be an adult and act like one, or be like an adolescent acting out in an attempt to prove you can give the finger to the rest of the world.
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I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying; "Those who are good at stealing should do so?'
"Those who can, do; those who can't, teach; those who can't teach, defraud, cheat steal and on the side, teach gym?" Abbie Hoffman was selling himself and activism, not stealing the hard work of others, and was so happy with his life he later committed suicide. You can be like him at any time.
Not respecting copyrights has damaged this community far worse the the Gould betrayal of Tramiel and Commodore.
So time to take a stand: Be an adult and act like one, or be like an adolescent acting out in an attempt to prove you can give the finger to the rest of the world.
Well, actually since stealing seems all the fashion in business and in politics, yes that actually is what I'm saying.
You don't actually think that guy was the source for any of the information in that book do you?
If that is a valid business model I'm going to go out and start collecting technical info that I have no part in producing, organize it and re-sell it.
Get over yourself.
If this was a significant issue all the author would have to do is issue take down notices to the servers this stuff is hosted on.
And, btw, are you going to start pretending now that big services like youtube aren't chock full of other people's creative property?
You know, when I was growing up, it used to be completely legal to make a copy of a album (say on cassette) so you could use it in a different device.
So legal, that my local library used to loan out copies they made.
Now that's illegal.
Frankly, somewhere along in our country's history personal freedoms and got tangled up with some poorly thought out ideas about property rights.
And it was not greatly to anyone's benefit.
Do not preach to me son, about growing up. For one thing I'm probably old enough to be your father.
And for another, I remember when young people had more sense than to run around like little Alex P. Keaton clones pulling there hair out going "Oh my God, you're violating the law".
Personally, while I don't smoke pot anymore, people like you make me want to light up a joint and then put it out in your eye.
And yes moderators, that statement IS meant to offend.
Because, sometimes it isn't reasonable to expect someone to respond politely when they have a punk questioning their maturity.
Edit - Ah, screw it. I'm putting myself in the time out corner.
You guys are beginning to get on my last nerve.
You know I can not presume to talk for them, but I think the people that left, did so because there are a significant number of idiots in the remaining community.
And there are time like this, when just being exposed to this kind of trite rubbish makes me feel like the exposure to it is making me dumber through its very contact.
So, to the more pathogenic of you, I bid goodnight.
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@ dan
Not to sound snide (but we all should focus on what we are good at).
So, this is a property rights issue and we are costing this guy money because this was going to be a perennial best seller?
Maybe its the '60s anarchist in me, but for some reason your argument makes me think of Abbie Hoffman's book "Steal This Book".
F'k it.
Freedom of information.
Dude! This is an important book in Amiga programming circles.
Ralph self published it. He didn't make a fortune. No publishing company made anything.
Ralph had publicly talked about a 2nd edition revision as late as 7-8 years ago, but as soon as the scans showed up, it made it easy for him to decide not to bother since he had no reason to believe it wouldn't immediately be scanned too.
Wouldn't it be great if all information were free, sure, but someone has to know enough to put something of substance together, and their time and expertise should be worth enough to make it worth their while.
It's fine for Abbie Hoffman to tell people to steal HIS book, to inflict financial loss on a publishing corporation as a statement that's consistent with his political goals.
When someone is self publishing and supporting a niche platform that needs all the help it can get, it might be nice if others using that platform supported the effort by not pirating his book. It's the same as pirating software. If you want to the Amiga to die, keep encouraging piracy.
It makes me tired when some encourage piracy as a political statement about freedom when one of the main impacts of that action is destroying the community they claim to be part of.
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Do you not understand the concept of Copyright?
Sure I do, and I don't have scanned books that I don't have a physical copy of. I use other reference material: http://amigadev.elowar.com/. This would've been taken down very fast if Vesalia had a problem with it. Has been on-line for years now. Also, the autodocs are usually quite sufficient for many things.
then you can have an opinion on whether a scanned version is better than a paper version.
I can, and am legally able in my country, to have ANY opinion I want. No need for YOU to tell me what I may and may not do, thank you very much.
I own a real and valid copy of his book and see no need in a scanned version and I also have a copy of the Encyclopedia Britannica. You know they both have this old thing called an "Index."
It's great for you that you prefer physical copies, and they're great. I wish I had The Art of Computer Programming, but can't afford it right now. However, for reference manuals it's certainly a good thing to have a digital copy for getting to the information you're looking for faster. Don't see how that's so hard to understand.
I'm not advocating theft here. Buy a copy and get a digital version somehow. Or just buy the digital copy instead if available. Both options are obviously better than buying second hand, because the author won't see a dime then.
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Dear Sir Iggy,
Have a good nights sleep, and when that middle finger gets tired, grandpa, try to find a useful purpose to create things you will be remember for, not the deeds that you regret. I believe the saying they use up North is, "Be a Mench."
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1. Go to Google.com
2. Enter "bookname filetype:pdf
3. Click search
4. Profit!
ps I own a printed copy of The Guru Book but the searchable scanned copy is much more convenient at times.
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Dude! This is an important book in Amiga programming circles.
Ralph self published it. He didn't make a fortune. No publishing company made anything.
Ralph had publicly talked about a 2nd edition revision as late as 7-8 years ago, but as soon as the scans showed up, it made it easy for him to decide not to bother since he had no reason to believe it wouldn't immediately be scanned too.
While I can understand that it annoyed him, his response is/was out of all proportion: the book is by most accounts finished. He's had several offers to get it published which would cost him nothing, including questions about whether a bounty could convince him. Whichever option would certainly net him some money, with little to no further work on it, but he's refused our of some combination of principle and insistence of only letting it be offset printed.
His choice of course, but not very rational - he's pretty much thrown away a huge amount of work he's already done while people are *still* regularly begging him to take their money. Even an unfinished draft copy released as a PDF only would get a decent amount of sales.
It's particularly ridiculous because the success of the Amiga is deeply intertwined with piracy - without it, his potential market for his first book would have been far smaller. And as many says here: For reference works, while it's great to have a scanned copy, having a paper copy too is fantastic.
I had the German edition of his first book, and I cherished it (unfortunately it got lost in a move at some point) - it was fantastic. And it probably vastly improved my German... I'd buy the second edition in a heartbeat if he chose to publish it just of out of nostalgia. Even if only a PDF.
Wouldn't it be great if all information were free, sure, but someone has to know enough to put something of substance together, and their time and expertise should be worth enough to make it worth their while.
There are any number of possible business models we choose to not enable because we need to strike a balance. Yet all our experience is that a lot of people put something of substance together even without the guarantee or even chance of an income. And *the vast majority* of authors of books - *especially* technical books - never make a profit on their work even if you account for their time at minimum wage.
If you write for the royalties, you'd be far better off taking a second job working minimum wage and putting your extra income in shares. If you write fiction or certain very specific genre non-fiction books (like self-help books, though a lot of those ought to qualify as fiction) you stand a chance, though extremely tiny, of making it big. If you write technical books, you pretty much don't. If you write technical books for niche systems and do it for the money, you're not very bright.
Most people writing technical books understands this: They write because they care about the subjects, or to create a reputation for themselves. In that case piracy is no big deal, or often helpful.
In Babel's case he seems to have expected to make much more than he did *and* taken personal offence at the thought that his book is not read only from his precious offset-printed paper-book. That's ok. It's his "baby" and his choice. But his expectations appears to have been and be completely out of whack with reality. That substantially diminishes my sympathy.
When someone is self publishing and supporting a niche platform that needs all the help it can get, it might be nice if others using that platform supported the effort by not pirating his book. It's the same as pirating software. If you want to the Amiga to die, keep encouraging piracy.
I agree it would be nice. But at the same time, the Amiga would never have reached the heights it did without piracy. While many lost out because of piracy, a huge proportion of the sales people *did* make in the Amiga market would never have happened if the Amiga market did not reach the size it did either. I doubt I'd have bought one without ready access to pirated games and programs, for example, as there's no way I could have afforded enough originals to make it worthwhile.
These days I'm a lot more willing to spend the cash, but then again my salary today is roughly 1000 times my pocket money back then....
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While I can understand that it annoyed him, his response is/was out of all proportion: the book is by most accounts finished. He's had several offers to get it published which would cost him nothing, including questions about whether a bounty could convince him. Whichever option would certainly net him some money, with little to no further work on it, but he's refused our of some combination of principle and insistence of only letting it be offset printed.
Uh oh, so it is all Babel's fault?
His choice of course, but not very rational - he's pretty much thrown away a huge amount of work he's already done while people are *still* regularly begging him to take their money. Even an unfinished draft copy released as a PDF only would get a decent amount of sales.
Uh oh, so it is all Babel's fault?
It's particularly ridiculous because the success of the Amiga is deeply intertwined with piracy - without it, his potential market for his first book would have been far smaller. And as many says here: For reference works, while it's great to have a scanned copy, having a paper copy too is fantastic.
Uh oh, so it is all Babel's fault?
I had the German edition of his first book, and I cherished it (unfortunately it got lost in a move at some point) - it was fantastic. And it probably vastly improved my German... I'd buy the second edition in a heartbeat if he chose to publish it just of out of nostalgia. Even if only a PDF.
But do you actually write software for Amiga anymore? Is this just about nostalgia to you?
There are any number of possible business models we choose to not enable because we need to strike a balance. Yet all our experience is that a lot of people put something of substance together even without the guarantee or even chance of an income. And *the vast majority* of authors of books - *especially* technical books - never make a profit on their work even if you account for their time at minimum wage.
If you write for the royalties, you'd be far better off taking a second job working minimum wage and putting your extra income in shares. If you write fiction or certain very specific genre non-fiction books (like self-help books, though a lot of those ought to qualify as fiction) you stand a chance, though extremely tiny, of making it big. If you write technical books, you pretty much don't. If you write technical books for niche systems and do it for the money, you're not very bright.
Uh oh, so it is all Babel's fault?
Most people writing technical books understands this: They write because they care about the subjects, or to create a reputation for themselves. In that case piracy is no big deal, or often helpful.
Uh oh, so it is all Babel's fault?
In Babel's case he seems to have expected to make much more than he did *and* taken personal offence at the thought that his book is not read only from his precious offset-printed paper-book. That's ok. It's his "baby" and his choice. But his expectations appears to have been and be completely out of whack with reality. That substantially diminishes my sympathy.
It is his own work and he can do whatever he wants with it. I would like to buy his book too. But there is no book to buy and I cant demand anyone to publish book because I would like to see that happen.
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@ dan
Not to sound snide (but we all should focus on what we are good at).
So, this is a property rights issue and we are costing this guy money because this was going to be a perennial best seller?
Maybe its the '60s anarchist in me, but for some reason your argument makes me think of Abbie Hoffman's book "Steal This Book".
F'k it.
Freedom of information.
As a programming resource wikis are more useful these days. PDF books are really out of date if you want information to be available to everyone.
Unfortunately on Amiga online programming resource are very scarce. There is amigacoding.de and that is it.
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Unfortunately on Amiga online programming resource are very scarce. There is amigacoding.de and that is it.
Oh lord, what a nonsense. Really, one minuscule site is all there is? :roflmao:
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My understanding is that this book is intended to Amiga "Classic" computers and is not relevant to NG ones.
Am I right?
Kamelito
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My understanding is that this book is intended to Amiga "Classic" computers and is not relevant to NG ones.
Am I right?
Kamelito
Yes it's for real Amigas.
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Support the artisitis/producers/writers not the companies abusing the work of others. Support the small indie publishers of books and music. Dont steal it, buy it.
%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@!%&$#?@! EMI and Amazon and Universal, but do this by not buying things from them, not stealing things. Buy direct where possible.
So there :)
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You have to love those who blame the victim, "You were raped because you deserve it."
Still Ralph's book is amazing and any Amiga programmer should BUY one.
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There is a good quality scan version of it, you can search in it and it has a chapter menu so ther is a good one out there, but as you say nothing beats the original, if I could spare the cash right now I would buy it :).
Fun fact: the existance of the scans permanently turned Ralph off the Amiga market. We are the poorer for it, as he was working on a revised edition of his book (which is still very, very relevant today).
Well done, Internet! :-(
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My understanding is that this book is intended to Amiga "Classic" computers and is not relevant to NG ones.
Am I right?
No, the book is still relevant. It is not a historic artefact.
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Yes ! It should be DONATED to one of the Amiga programmers who can and will use it :banana:
Ah, I remember programming, sitting behind the monochrome screen typing up a bunch of code in Clipper and ending up with a major headache when it was time to go home, typing pages of code on my MSX-1 and saving it to tape .. those were the days :crazy:
Never again .. *hats off and bow* to programmers :)
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You have to love those who blame the victim, "You were raped because you deserve it."
Yeah, that's vile indeed :(
Still Ralph's book is amazing and any Amiga programmer should BUY one.
Not me, because I see no need. And no, I'm not downloading it, either. Most of what you need to know to write AmigaOS software is in the autodocs. Of course, they're not ideal, and certainly can't beat 700+ pages worth of in-depth explanations, but they're sufficient.
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Uh oh, so it is all Babel's fault?
No, it isn't nor did I write that, or imply that. Did you actually read what you replied to?
But while holding it back is not all his fault - that he felt burned by the piracy of the first book is clear, and the piracy certainly has part of the blame - he is a grown up and needs to take some of the responsibility for the choice he made himself. The piracy gave him a reason not to *want* to release the second version, it did not force him to hold it back.
To be clear: He does not owe us anything. But that doesn't mean I need to fawn over his choice or reasoning. Just as he is free to withhold the book, it is also my right to point out why I believe his expectations seems to have been out of whack with reality if he actually expected to make more than a token sum of money - piracy or not.
Nor do I need to avoid mentioning that in my opinion he made a silly and irrational choice in withholding a second version when people have been prepared to put in a lot of work to ensure he'd get paid properly for it, which frankly would put him in a far better position than most tech writers can hope for.
But do you actually write software for Amiga anymore? Is this just about nostalgia to you?
Now and again. But yes, even when I do get time, it is mostly about nostalgia to me. I would very much like more to come of it, e.g. with AROS, as there are many things I miss day to day from AmigaOS. But again you miss the point, which was to praise his books influence as great enough that there are at least some of us willing to pay for it - and over the odds - if here were to allow someone to release it, *even if* we don't actually *need* the content any more.
It is his own work and he can do whatever he wants with it. I would like to buy his book too. But there is no book to buy and I cant demand anyone to publish book because I would like to see that happen.
Which is why I expressed my wish for it rather than demand anything.
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That Commodore book by Brian Bagnell (A company on the edge?) has not been scanned so I see no reason why something even more niche as a 2nd revision of this book would be scanned and uploaded. And look what happened to that book, the Amiga revision of that book has been cancelled so you have to find a 1st release where the 16bit stuff wasn't removed to split the book into 8bit and the 'coming soon' Amiga years........which are now not going to be released.
However things like Computer & Video Games magazines missing supplements or one off yearbooks I paid through the nose for over the years if I scanned them you can bet your ass they would be on piratebay pretty quickly lol which is why I never released the scans of certain things.
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Yes ! It should be DONATED to one of the Amiga programmers who can and will use it :banana:
Ah, I remember programming, sitting behind the monochrome screen typing up a bunch of code in Clipper and ending up with a major headache when it was time to go home, typing pages of code on my MSX-1 and saving it to tape .. those were the days :crazy:
Never again .. *hats off and bow* to programmers :)
Really? For my first three years of programming, I typed hand written code into punch cards and then picked a ream of green and white striped paper to see if it worked. If the computer was powered down by accident (air conditioning went out), the OS was reloaded from a reel of paper tape; that's when that row of off/on toggle switches became important.
Still Ralph's book is well worth the money ♥
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fyi, after a 1 1/2 days of a 3 day listing,
this listing has 255 views and 12 watching.
The 255 views shows a better than average level of interest for most Amiga related items.
Some of those watching may be checking to see what it brings because they have one they might sell, but some are also likely interested in buying a 20 yr old book of actual paper!
Imagine that!
That should tell you something.
(No matter how many encourage piracy and copyright infringement and don't care about the platform, there will always be those who've put time in and made things worth having. It's sad that the Amiga platform suffered not only from poor management & promotion, but more than its share in a niche community who thought it okay to not only crack & scan, but post and remove any potential for authors and developers to benefit from their efforts. These people helped to drive the best from adding more value to the Amiga.)
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@sprocket
I don't know you...I'm in a different camp when it comes to a second hand sale.
IF you bought this book at retail for $60, sell it for that and Ralph gets no money.
Sell it at your starting bid and double your money 60 back plus 60 = 120...
and Ralph still gets no money.
IF someone pays you buy now of $200...GREAT for you, Ralph still gets no money.
IF you really want to show us something. Promise at the least 50% to Ralph.
Just MHO,
M
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IF you really want to show us something. Promise at the least 50% to Ralph.
You're absolutely right. If I wanted this book, I'd contact Ralph and ask him what he wants for me using a scanned version. That way he'd get cash for his work.
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@sprocket
I don't know you...I'm in a different camp when it comes to a second hand sale.
IF you bought this book at retail for $60, sell it for that and Ralph gets no money.
Sell it at your starting bid and double your money 60 back plus 60 = 120...
and Ralph still gets no money.
IF someone pays you buy now of $200...GREAT for you, Ralph still gets no money.
IF you really want to show us something. Promise at the least 50% to Ralph.
Just MHO,
M
Does that work with the used cars salesman, too?
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@vidarh
I think I read it and understood. Maybe not in a way you tried to make your point but I think we both have got message through now.
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@itix
Used or new car salesmen get paid by commision. (usually)
Ebay sellers can sell what they want at any price thay want...
I did state I'm in a different camp. I have never sold on ebay or other such things.
I have bought stuff for prices that I consider okay. In fact I like finding amiga stuff I missed.
My point is that a lot of talk about Ralph not getting his due when in fact the seller is just trying to make the most money for himself he can.
Okay! But just don't try to make about some other ideal. (ie authors getting their due.)
If someone agreeds to pay what the seller wants...fine
Then that seller can dance up a storm over his profit...
but, it wasn't about Ralph. btw, I don't know Ralph, never saw his book to buy.
Point made!
M
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If I'm not mistaken I believe Ralph sold all of the copies of this book that he had printed. If he wanted to sell more he should have printed more and I am sure they would have sold just as the first printing did. He is the one that put people in the position of wanting a scanned copy. So yes, I believe Ralph created this monster and then didn't like what he had created and chose to blame the community. It would be a whole different story if he was sitting on a stack of unsold books but that is not the reality. How can you complain about illegal copies when there are no legal copies to be had?
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Simples, it's his material. If it is available or not is irrelevant.
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If I'm not mistaken I believe Ralph sold all of the copies of this book that he had printed. If he wanted to sell more he should have printed more and I am sure they would have sold just as the first printing did. He is the one that put people in the position of wanting a scanned copy. So yes, I believe Ralph created this monster and then didn't like what he had created and chose to blame the community. It would be a whole different story if he was sitting on a stack of unsold books but that is not the reality. How can you complain about illegal copies when there are no legal copies to be had?
Ah, back to blaming the victim, sad really.
So copyright laws only exist when they are convenient to you morals; a copy for sale is right in front of you, so there is no reason to steal one!
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@sprocket
I don't know you...I'm in a different camp when it comes to a second hand sale.
IF you bought this book at retail for $60, sell it for that and Ralph gets no money.
Sell it at your starting bid and double your money 60 back plus 60 = 120...
and Ralph still gets no money.
IF someone pays you buy now of $200...GREAT for you, Ralph still gets no money.
IF you really want to show us something. Promise at the least 50% to Ralph.
Just MHO,
M
The farmer who sells his crop for pennies of what it sells for in the market is not on commision; do you pay the grocer half-price and send the rest to the farmer?
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@dan
No I buy my food at the farmers market. At whatever they charge if I can afford it.
You can make lots of samples of making money... and I don't begrudge profit to grow and invest, etc
I try to live a balanced life and not make any "killings" in the market (of any sort)
If I wanted to sell this book, I would ask no more than I paid, but most likey half as it would be used (read)
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Ah, back to blaming the victim, sad really.
So copyright laws only exist when they are convenient to you morals; a copy for sale is right in front of you, so there is no reason to steal one!
You lose all respect from me the moment you equate copyright infringement and theft. Copyright law exists explicitly because theft by definition can not have occurred if the victim still has the the supposedly stolen item in their possession.
As such, in its modern form, copyright is explicitly an *exchange*: Society grants certain additional protections that does not follow from any concept of natural law. These additional protections are granted temporarily as part of a bargain to encourage the creation of more works. These restrictions are directly and intentionally limitations on free speech, on the assumption that these temporary restrictions will enrich society as a whole.
If a work is withdrawn from the market, society gets no benefits from maintaining that bargain - on the contrary, in that case enforcing copyright impoverishes society.
It is certainly "convenient" morally to believe that if someone is not acting in accordance with the goal of copyright, we should not care all that much about being bound by it either. And indeed, in many jurisdictions, this is recognized by copyright law implicitly or explicitly: Non-commercial copying in cases where the original work is unavailable is most places treated very lightly exactly because there can not realistically be said to be a commercial loss if the work is not available for sale.
The US is the most notable exception with its massive punishments for statutory infringement.
But there is thus no universal agreement that copying a work that has been taken off the market is bad.
(Note: I still, as I've pointed out, believe Babel was in his right to make the decisions he did, and I don't know whether or not it is correct that the book was sold out and that he refused further printings of the original version or not; but I also won't condemn anyone for copying his works *now* when he has shown a total disinterest in trying to make any further money from the work)
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First-sale doctrine or no, if you support Ralph's position, don't buy secondhand copies of his book. He prefers to see his work--and whatever knowledge it might have contained--lost to time.
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If I'm not mistaken I believe Ralph sold all of the copies of this book that he had printed. If he wanted to sell more he should have printed more and I am sure they would have sold just as the first printing did. He is the one that put people in the position of wanting a scanned copy. So yes, I believe Ralph created this monster and then didn't like what he had created and chose to blame the community. It would be a whole different story if he was sitting on a stack of unsold books but that is not the reality. How can you complain about illegal copies when there are no legal copies to be had?
we have work at a new version and reprint of the book. this info was public. some days before the book-release spread the users a scanned version of the old book and damaged with that the new release.
i think i dont must say any more...
about to sell a original book, second hand. i dont see here the problem.
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You lose all respect from me the moment you equate copyright infringement and theft. Copyright law exists explicitly because theft by definition can not have occurred if the victim still has the the supposedly stolen item in their possession.
You make an interesting point for sure. Perhaps people are 'breaking the [copyright] law' by copying currently protected material. They are not stealing it by your argument since it is still possessed by the owner. Perhaps 'don't steal music/movies' sounds more forceful than 'don't break copyright law'. I'm not saying you're either wrong or right, though I would like to examine this a bit further as an intellectual exercise.
The point is that the law still bears force even if the owner decides to never release his material (unless he/she himself indicates so otherwise, or the legally specified number of years of copyright protection has passed).
As such, there is no justification to break the protection granted to Ralph at this point in time. You may not cause pecuniary damages to him, though you have broken the law, and in doing so, disenfranchised Ralph from his legally provided right to keep possession of his work. Whether this possession is morally correct or not, is not a question of legality. If Ralph discovers a cure for cancer, writes it up in a book, and never publishes the book, keeping a copy for himself that gets stolen and posted somewhere, then the only thing to save face that can be done is for the *laws to change*, perhaps making an exception that certain life-enriching works must be distributed by the author or granted free to society if such distribution is non-existent. I'm not sure this applies to a technical book about a vintage system :)
As you mention, some countries take non-commercial copying of unavailable works lightly. This may seem harmless, until we realize that in the case of Ralph, you are basically going against the wishes of the owner, who had stressed his position about his out-of-print work being copied freely. Remember that he is a *living author* who has/had the intention of building on his earlier works to provide a new commercially available product (the new edition).
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@sprocket
I don't know you...I'm in a different camp when it comes to a second hand sale.
IF you bought this book at retail for $60, sell it for that and Ralph gets no money.
Sell it at your starting bid and double your money 60 back plus 60 = 120...
and Ralph still gets no money.
IF someone pays you buy now of $200...GREAT for you, Ralph still gets no money.
IF you really want to show us something. Promise at the least 50% to Ralph.
Just MHO,
M
So you expect those who've collected and maintained hardware since the eighties or nineties to sell their stuff for what they paid for it?
So you expect those who have worthwhile software with registration keys and any documentation to pass it along for what they paid for it?
Yes, this is a book. The author made what he could, and I'm not currently in touch with him. I have, like many, contacted him in the past to encourage a new edition, but found him to be less than receptive to any new edition or the old edition.
As a book, it is both an informational resource, and a hard asset.
I paid more than cover price when I acquired this second hand. The reason this book has a higher than cover price is both because the content is substantial, AND because as time has passed the book is more rare as copies have gone to recycle or trash or were otherwise lost or destroyed. As with anything of this kind, some few are saved and cared for by some few who know their worth.
I have no need to "show you something" or to show anyone anything.
I'm giving you the same chance I had at acquiring something of value, and the price will be determined by who values it the most.
...and I have no interest in letting it go to someone who sees it as something to use forced logic to get it for a minimal price. It's not a collectible or something to sit on a shelf as a prize someone managed to get by promoting some socialized benefit that really amounts to a personal benefit.
I'm hopeful it will go to someone who values it, will care for it, and may eventually either never let it go or pass it along for whatever reasonable value it has at that time to another who values it. ..and by value, I mean will put their money up to prove their interest and valuation.
As for Ralph, I've owned 2 copies of this book over the years, this being the second and last one I've had. At some point, Ralph got the percentage of each that he had calculated based on his original printing. Do I owe him something now? I owe him precisely what he stipulated in publishing a copyright book... that I won't copy it and reduce his ability to sell or revise it for his benefit. I have no intention of infringing on his copyright.
If any of those whining for lower prices on valuable older Amiga items really want something, perhaps standing against piracy and infringement and actually valuing things enough to give something for them when they want them would result in a dynamic Amiga market with lots of users again and that volume would lower all prices.
I won't hold my breath.
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Fill yer boots pirates! ;)
http://amiga-manuals.xiik.net/amiga.php
http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/
http://amigadev.elowar.com/
http://magnet:?xt=urn:btih:9090d859dec515cc81de9e17454d26866ac74579&dn=Amiga+Guru+Book+Ralph+Babel+English+PDF&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.openbittorrent.com%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.publicbt.com%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.istole.it%3A6969&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Ftracker.ccc.de%3A80&tr=udp%3A%2F%2Fopen.demonii.com%3A1337
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Fill yer boots pirates! ;)
How much is your time worth?
How much is your education worth?
If you develop, and acquire your references through any means other than paying for them, or being given them by those who have paid for them, or by those who've published them and chosen to make them freely available for their own reasons, what expectation can you have anyone will value your work, your time or your effort?
If your preference is to use a physical book, how much is it worth to you to find one, and acquire it?
If someone else keeps something in fair shape, and makes it available to you when the item is scarce, is that worth something?
It's 2013 and the there's almost no one making anything for the Amiga community.
Why is that? Because those that have been abused, and, with dwindling active numbers of
users the few who are left are increasingly newbies, and those looking for freebies.
What this tells me is:
- there is likely to be some quality stuff available to those really interested & willing to pay for it.
- and those of us who really used Amigas in the mid eighties and those who have hardware and software shouldn't bother having discussions concerning piracy, and infringement with those who's motives seem more likely simply a casual personal amusement, with no real interest in any sort of vibrant, active community that produces new stuff.
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All property is theft.
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All property is theft.
..and those who say such things and offer no workable, pragmatic alternative are wasting everyone's time and making sure nothing gets done.
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read the author's own response to what's happened to his original work at:
http://babel.de/amiga.html#doc
Without incentive, nothing happens and no one needs to own anything because there's nothing worth anything.
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..and those who say such things and offer no workable, pragmatic alternative are wasting everyone's time and making sure nothing gets done.
..and you selling a second hand copy of Ralph's work benefits who exactly?
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..and you selling a second hand copy of Ralph's work benefits who exactly?
Considering how much has been said above I would have thought that was made clear already, but I will summarize:
- selling good quality used/2nd hand goods of any sort demonstrates their continued value to those unfamiliar with them
- provides the initial purchasers with some recovery of their investment, and in the case of 3rd or 4th hand buyers, recovery of their investment and perhaps some benefit for their maintenance of and care of increasingly rare items. (this includes me) Without this, many things would become impossible to find much quicker.
- provides the developer community with some indication of what subjects are of interest to the community, and where they might put new effort if they're interested in producing something within that community.
There are additional and tangential benefits to an active used marketplace including encouraging an active primary developer community and market.
Yes, there are plenty of examples of the corrosive ways capitalism can manifest itself, but those are not typically obvious, or relevant to the open secondary market. ..and not a relevant pretense for proposing socialism or open access to everything without any pragmatic description of how that would work or support the community.
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Considering how much has been said above I would have thought that was made clear already, but I will summarize:
- selling good quality used/2nd hand goods of any sort demonstrates their continued value to those unfamiliar with them
- provides the initial purchasers with some recovery of their investment, and in the case of 3rd or 4th hand buyers, recovery of their investment and perhaps some benefit for their maintenance of and care of increasingly rare items. (this includes me) Without this, many things would become impossible to find much quicker.
- provides the developer community with some indication of what subjects are of interest to the community, and where they might put new effort if they're interested in producing something within that community.
There are additional and tangential benefits to an active used marketplace including encouraging an active primary developer community and market.
Yes, there are plenty of examples of the corrosive ways capitalism can manifest itself, but those are not typically obvious, or relevant to the open secondary market. ..and not a relevant pretense for proposing socialism or open access to everything without any pragmatic description of how that would work or support the community.
..and me posting links to free copies of Amiga programming reference manuals benefits the wider community tenfold.
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..and me posting links to free copies of Amiga programming reference manuals benefits the wider community tenfold.
Here we disagree.
Posting such links further demonstrates to authors including Ralph, that there are plenty who will promote and use digital versions that infringe on their copyright so there is no incentive for them to revise or author new works of value.
If there were a new, updated edition of such volumes I guarantee the market for the first edition would evaporate immediately, but not when there would likely also be a scanned digital version online of the new edition!
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Here we disagree.
Posting such links further demonstrates to authors including Ralph, that there are plenty who will promote and use digital versions that infringe on their copyright so there is no incentive for them to revise or author new works of value.
If there were a new, updated edition of such volumes I guarantee the market for the first edition would evaporate immediately, but not when there would likely also be a scanned digital version online of the new edition!
100% of the books I posted links to are now out of print.
If you want people to learn how to code for Amigas there is no better way than to give them free documentation.
I could sell my RKRM's, Guru Book and various other Amiga coding books but the main benificary of those sales would be me; certainly not the wider community nor the original authors.
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100% of the books I posted links to are now out of print.
If you want people to learn how to code for Amigas there is no better way than to give them free documentation.
I could sell my RKRM's, Guru Book and various other Amiga coding books but the main benificary of those sales would be me; certainly not the wider community nor the original authors.
..and when you "give away" your own personal copies when you're done with them, especially if the works is 'out of print', and you would benefit the community, and the person you gave them to would likely appreciate them as they were not easy to come by.
..but when you encourage free access to infringed digital copies, you make certain no one will ever do a reprint, and inhibit the necessity for a new edition.
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..and when you "give away" your own personal copies when you're done with them, especially if the works is 'out of print', and you would benefit the community, and the person you gave them to would likely appreciate them as they were not easy to come by.
..but when you encourage free access to infringed digital copies, you make certain no one will ever do a reprint, and inhibit the necessity for a new edition.
Bollox.
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http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=amiga+filetype:[b][/b]pdf
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http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=amiga+filetype:[b][/b]pdf
How many of those authors expressly stated displeasure with their works being published on the Internet as Ralph Babel did?
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but when you encourage free access to infringed digital copies, you make certain no one will ever do a reprint, and inhibit the necessity for a new edition.
He has already stated he will not be doing a reprint or a new edition. So whether digital copies are available is completely irrelevant.
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So you expect those who've collected and maintained hardware since the eighties or nineties to sell their stuff for what they paid for it?
M- Yes, I would hope so.
So you expect those who have worthwhile software with registration keys and any documentation to pass it along for what they paid for it?
M- Yes, as I would.
I have no need to "show you something" or to show anyone anything.
M- Yes, You're quite right.
As for Ralph, I've owned 2 copies of this book over the years, this being the second and last one I've had. At some point, Ralph got the percentage of each that he had calculated based on his original printing. Do I owe him something now? I owe him precisely what he stipulated in publishing a copyright book... that I won't copy it and reduce his ability to sell or revise it for his benefit. I have no intention of infringing on his copyright.
M- Very correct!
If any of those whining for lower prices on valuable older Amiga items really want something, perhaps standing against piracy and infringement and actually valuing things enough to give something for them when they want them would result in a dynamic Amiga market with lots of users again and that volume would lower all prices.
You're mistaken, I not whining.
I have a different view from you as to pricing.
Remember, it's people like me that allow you to "buy low, sell high"
or maybe it's just the age of ebay...
M
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So you expect those who've collected and maintained hardware since the eighties or nineties to sell their stuff for what they paid for it?
M- Yes, I would hope so.
So you expect those who have worthwhile software with registration keys and any documentation to pass it along for what they paid for it?
M- Yes, as I would.
I have no need to "show you something" or to show anyone anything.
M- Yes, You're quite right.
As for Ralph, I've owned 2 copies of this book over the years, this being the second and last one I've had. At some point, Ralph got the percentage of each that he had calculated based on his original printing. Do I owe him something now? I owe him precisely what he stipulated in publishing a copyright book... that I won't copy it and reduce his ability to sell or revise it for his benefit. I have no intention of infringing on his copyright.
M- Very correct!
If any of those whining for lower prices on valuable older Amiga items really want something, perhaps standing against piracy and infringement and actually valuing things enough to give something for them when they want them would result in a dynamic Amiga market with lots of users again and that volume would lower all prices.
You're mistaken, I not whining.
I have a different view from you as to pricing.
Remember, it's people like me that allow you to "buy low, sell high"
or maybe it's just the age of ebay...
M
you expect people to sell their items for what they paid for it?
Well, in many cases that would mean prices far higher for many items than what anyone would pay!
There are those with differing opinions, yes.
..and my use of the word "whining" doesn't apply to everyone with an opinion differing from my own, but only those who seem to think simply repeating their want for free or infringed stuff is going to make it happen.
As for buying low and selling high, if you've checked the listing you'll know it has ended and I got just about what I expect, and within a few dollars of what I had in it (as it is the 2nd copy I bought used myself some time ago, as I mentioned).
I don't sell things to make a killing. I can't believe anyone makes a killing selling Amiga items.
I'll say this. For those times when I've made an high margin above what I paid for something, I've dumped, given or gotten a fraction for so much more! That's what happens when a community shrinks, developers leave and items lose their value because a few think it's okay to copy, scan, crack, or otherwise dupe without regard.
On balance, no one really "sells high". Everyone loses.
Sometimes it seems to me many see ebay listings with a high 'buy it now' price, or what they consider a high starting bid price, and assume you're trying to gouge others.
Do a search for the item in closed listings and find out what that same item sold for within the last 2 yrs and the going price may be precisely what someone else paid for it.
I've had Amiga stuff since 1987, have been a member of multiple users groups and chair of one for a short period, I've given, swapped, sold and donated stuff, and assisted in organizing one commercial show for Amiga vendors. I've put my time in. I have no patience for so many of these folks who had no idea what an Amiga was before 2000.
While I've met many interesting and wonderful folks and learned a lot in this community, I've also found several folks who've gone out of their way to make it a tiring experience as they illustrated frustrating, short sighted and damaging behavior to the community and the platform as it has struggled over the last 15 yrs.
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Sadly, this is THE forum to meet such a group as you have described; those adolescents still fingering everybody who grew up and became responsible adults striving to support their families and THIS community in a nurturing and positive way.
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you expect people to sell their items for what they paid for it?
M- No, At most what they paid, usually half, it is used and maybe twenty years old.
Well, in many cases that would mean prices far higher for many items than what anyone would pay!
M- So it won't sell, that's okay.
There are those with differing opinions, yes.
M- Great
..and my use of the word "whining" doesn't apply to everyone with an opinion differing from my own, but only those who seem to think simply repeating their want for free or infringed stuff is going to make it happen.
M- Can't speak to that...
I don't sell things to make a killing. I can't believe anyone makes a killing selling Amiga items.
M- Oh, yes, lots.
I'll say this. For those times when I've made an high margin above what I paid for something, I've dumped, given or gotten a fraction for so much more! That's what happens when a community shrinks, developers leave and items lose their value because a few think it's okay to copy, scan, crack, or otherwise dupe without regard.
On balance, no one really "sells high". Everyone loses.
M- so in order to balance, one must maximize return?
Sometimes it seems to me many see ebay listings with a high 'buy it now' price, or what they consider a high starting bid price, and assume you're trying to gouge others.
Do a search for the item in closed listings and find out what that same item sold for within the last 2 yrs and the going price may be precisely what someone else paid for it.
M- I don't consider this the "going" price, as you know.
I've had Amiga stuff since 1987, have been a member of multiple users groups and chair of one for a short period, I've given, swapped, sold and donated stuff, and assisted in organizing one commercial show for Amiga vendors. I've put my time in.
M- Me too, my first A1000 was Jan1986
I have no patience for so many of these folks who had no idea what an Amiga was before 2000.
M- Not good, we must include all the generations (as we were included)
While I've met many interesting and wonderful folks and learned a lot in this community, I've also found several folks who've gone out of their way to make it a tiring experience as they illustrated frustrating, short sighted and damaging behavior to the community and the platform as it has struggled over the last 15 yrs.
The net is not a good place to really understand people... words don't seen to send how we mean them.
For all we know, everyone is a 70 year old day trader...
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On balance, no one really "sells high". Everyone loses.
M- so in order to balance, one must maximize return?
Sometimes it seems to me many see ebay listings with a high 'buy it now' price, or what they consider a high starting bid price, and assume you're trying to gouge others.
Do a search for the item in closed listings and find out what that same item sold for within the last 2 yrs and the going price may be precisely what someone else paid for it.
M- I don't consider this the "going" price, as you know.
I'm not personally aiming at any sort of balance. When you list an item on ebay you take your best guess at how to position it.
The market decides. The value is based on what the buyers think it's worth, not the seller.
The "going price" is what any given sale turns out to be. I've seen this particular book sell for more than $220 in years past. At present, it seems like that demand has been diminished by the availability of the digital versions. Some seem to still want an actual paper book.
The benefit to the community is that anything continues to have any value.
The net is not a good place to really understand people... words don't seen to send how we mean them.
For all we know, everyone is a 70 year old day trader...
If it were common that used Amiga items were bringing huge speculative returns on the scale of securities speculators you'd be seeing a lot more stuff listed on ebay.
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I'm not personally aiming at any sort of balance. When you list an item on ebay you take your best guess at how to position it.
The market decides. The value is based on what the buyers think it's worth, not the seller.
M- Only if It starts at $1. You can't bid lower than the seller sets... but you know that.
The "going price" is what any given sale turns out to be. I've seen this particular book sell for more than $220 in years past. At present, it seems like that demand has been diminished by the availability of the digital versions. Some seem to still want an actual paper book.
M- This still isn't the price as I see it. But you already know that too.
The benefit to the community is that anything continues to have any value.
If it were common that used Amiga items were bringing huge speculative returns on the scale of securities speculators you'd be seeing a lot more stuff listed on ebay.
M- see that last line was meant to have a grin... but I didn't make it clear...
I think it's fine to see what the buyers will run up to and enjoy your return.
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The net is not a good place to really understand people... words don't seen [sic] to send how [sic] we mean them.
For all we know, everyone is a 70 year old day trader...
This thread began as a notification of a sale of an intellectually valuable and rare book for sale to the Amiga community; it quickly degraded into the merits of ignoring intellectual property rights, whether an author has any rights at all after the end of a publication run, whether the loss of those rights can hurt the community at large, and if the second sale of an item has value to the owner or the author. Several individuals showed contempt of not only establish "rules of behavior" meant to lessen the effects the financial but also intellectual loss of property, and scorned those who adopted the "rules" as "laws." Several individuals with secondary agenda's in their bylines, lost credibility of their proposed values, and others made flat inflammatory comments.
Reams of paper and electrons have been utilized for exactly the purpose of elucidating what one means in their writing over the past four millennia, and suffice it to say that this forum or the internet at large removes ones ability to be clear and concise is disconcerting.
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Sadly, this is THE forum to meet such a group as you have described; those adolescents still fingering everybody who grew up and became responsible adults striving to support their families and THIS community in a nurturing and positive way.
Providing free documentation of books that will never be printed again benefits the community in a much more "nurturing and positive way" than selling second hand copies of these books will ever do.
The fact that you can't see this says more about you than it does we "adolescents".
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I'm not personally aiming at any sort of balance. When you list an item on ebay you take your best guess at how to position it.
The market decides. The value is based on what the buyers think it's worth, not the seller.
M- Only if It starts at $1. You can't bid lower than the seller sets... but you know that.
No, you can't open by bidding lower than the seller's set starting price, BUT you CAN simply not bid at all.
I've seen and listed MANY auctions or 'buy it now' listings where the item ultimately didn't sell. Sellers have the option of relisting and lowering their price, waiting and listing later, or simply deciding the market isn't there for that item.
There is no requirement for anyone to bid at all.
That some do demonstrates the rarity of the item, and/or how much the buyer wants the item. That's the reason ebay exists.
You can argue with the market's perception, or that you've been outbid, or that the person who has it thinks it's worth more than you do, but THAT doesn't change the fact that until all of our property becomes community property none of that matters and that isn't how it works.
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Providing free documentation of books that will never be printed again benefits the community in a much more "nurturing and positive way" than selling second hand copies of these books will ever do.
The fact that you can't see this says more about you than it does we "adolescents".
I don't object to product documentation that has been abandoned and has no real intrinsic value, but was only originally intended to help you use software or some add on hardware.
Anyone who does this is still taking a chance, and the original publisher has the right to police their copyright and come after you.
When someone was considering releasing a revised version of THEIR work (Babel) as late as a few years ago, and some self indulgent nit decides their opinion to post a digital version online, and cheats everyone out of a new version by removing the incentive to the author is okay and they delude themselves into thinking they're doing a public service.... well, that's just perverse thinking.
If these tactics you're so fond of worked so well, why isn't the Amiga platform the current dominant platform? Why isn't the community a vibrant, creative mix of hundreds of thousands of people? Why is it a muddy mix of very few without any clear direction for the platform to recover the position it once had?
pffft!
Be serious. You're not doing a public service. You're telling yourself what you're doing is of value when no one will remember what you did. If you crack and post you've broken a contract with every author and developer who has ever published anything. If you simply point people at digital versions, you're encouraging that behavior. If you use infringed work, you're encouraging that behavior.
The people who are likely to be remembered are the original authors, the original designers, those who put time in and ran users groups, those who put time & resources in to stage conventions. ...and those people are not likely to ever return to a market where their time and expertise is no longer respected by the market honoring the contract of their copyright.
I'm done with this thread.
My listing is over and I hope the person who bought the book gets a lot out of it.
Until next time... If I have something to list again I'm sure there will be plenty more people questioning my starting price, or if I'm even entitled to ANY monies for something I actually paid for (used or new), as well as my motives and how selling used items isn't supportive of the market.
Guess what? I could care less what you think, and you're not persuading anyone to your point of view.
Anyone who owns or has owned hardware, software or reference deserves, at least, some level of consideration for not simply tossing it in the recycle.
That they also get to enjoy these sorts of wonderful exchanges (tongue firmly in cheek) questioning their intentions (which seem mostly to be interested in getting something for nothing and not nearly as morally superior as they are framed) is tiring, insulting, tedious and damaging to the community and anyone who might want a good selection of used items to be available, as well as any potential new items.
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@Sprocket Next time just put in on Ebay those interested will find it, no needs to post on Amiga sites. If one day I sell mine I'll do this. Kamelito
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@Sprocket Next time just put in on Ebay those interested will find it, no needs to post on Amiga sites. If one day I sell mine I'll do this. Kamelito
The point of the MarketPlace is to notify people of items for sale, not, as it has become, a haven for trolls and flamers.