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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: AmigaClassicRule on October 26, 2013, 07:30:01 PM

Title: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: AmigaClassicRule on October 26, 2013, 07:30:01 PM
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Commodore-AMIGA-1200-OVERDRIVE-External-PCMCIA-Hard-Disk-Drive-HDD-170-MB-Mo-/281194526580

Who here agrees that if someone owns an A1200 that he should never buy this? Why? Well, simply put A1200 already have an IDE port inside the motherboard....second...you lose your PCMCIA for a harddrive that could have being used for something more important than a harddrive.

Though....it does look sexy and elegant...it is a useless device. Unless people want to mimic Amiga 500 but with AGA capacity and does not mind their Amiga have no access to the internet.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: SamuraiCrow on October 26, 2013, 07:40:13 PM
It is worthless to anyone who doesn't need a second harddrive.  Although nowadays, there are better ways to do that also.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: mechy on October 26, 2013, 07:47:31 PM
More than likely this was designed for the people who had 1200's that did not come with the internal hd and who are terrified of the tools(read: screwdriver) it takes to disassemble a 1200 to install one. I wouldn't call it technology, its a simple add on.
the A1200 IDE is terrible/slow,so who knows if this was a faster solution-Likely not since pcmcia is 16bit and quite slow.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: som99 on October 26, 2013, 08:47:48 PM
Nowdays it's kinda useless, but I wouldn't say no to get my hands on a defective one just to mount permanently on my A1200 for a optical drive and a extra 3.25" hard drive and then just extend the PCMCIA to still be able to use the PCMCIA and have extra large roomy A1200 :D
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: Thorham on October 26, 2013, 08:58:24 PM
Quote from: mechy;751179
I wouldn't call it technology, its a simple add on.

Oh lord :rolleyes: Have we now arrived at the point where high tech isn't called technology anymore? Really :p
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: Iggy on October 26, 2013, 09:16:45 PM
Quote from: Thorham;751184
Oh lord :rolleyes: Have we now arrived at the point where high tech isn't called technology anymore? Really :p


...voodoo
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: foleyjo on October 26, 2013, 10:03:54 PM
If you are not wanting to use any pcmcia devices then you could benefit by using this as your os drive and your idea drive to hold your games and apps. Remember there was a 4gb limit back when this came out too
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: Darrin on October 26, 2013, 10:49:18 PM
Quote from: AmigaClassicRule;751177
Who here agrees that if someone owns an A1200 that he should never buy this?


You have to remember what computing was like when this device came out.  I had a friend who owned one and there was a good reason for it:  Price!

Back then, 2.5" hard drives were bloody expensive and this thing allowed you to add a 3.5" drive for a fraction of the cost (nobody thought about cutting shielding and bodging wires).  If I recall correctly, the 3.5" drive over the PCMCIA port also out performed slower 2.5" internal 2.5" drives (correct me if I'm wrong).

As for Internet, it was more about bulleting boards via a trusty old dial-up modem attached to your serial port.

The only other thing the PCMCIA port was good for back then was expensive RAM cards and a squirrel for adding a SCSI hard drive and/or one of those new fandagled CD ROM thingies, but that was only after the CD32 was released.  Most of us added RAM via the expansion port with a CPU card.

Yeah, today I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, but it has its place in history and was useful when it was made.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: freqmax on October 26, 2013, 11:20:46 PM
How about a cable from the motherboard thorough the plastic chassi to an external 3,5" drive?
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: Astral on October 26, 2013, 11:35:31 PM
@Darrin

+1. Nearly exactly what I was thinking.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: nicholas on October 27, 2013, 12:11:53 AM
I had a 3.5" drive inside my A1200 back in 93/94 it was my first ever hard drive. Was a Western Digital Caviar 240MB IIRC. I just ripped out the shielding and plugged it in with an adapter cable.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: AmigaClassicRule on October 27, 2013, 12:55:48 AM
Quote from: Darrin;751195
You have to remember what computing was like when this device came out.  I had a friend who owned one and there was a good reason for it:  Price!

Back then, 2.5" hard drives were bloody expensive and this thing allowed you to add a 3.5" drive for a fraction of the cost (nobody thought about cutting shielding and bodging wires).  If I recall correctly, the 3.5" drive over the PCMCIA port also out performed slower 2.5" internal 2.5" drives (correct me if I'm wrong).

As for Internet, it was more about bulleting boards via a trusty old dial-up modem attached to your serial port.

The only other thing the PCMCIA port was good for back then was expensive RAM cards and a squirrel for adding a SCSI hard drive and/or one of those new fandagled CD ROM thingies, but that was only after the CD32 was released.  Most of us added RAM via the expansion port with a CPU card.

Yeah, today I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, but it has its place in history and was useful when it was made.


(http://www.jekoplan.si/image/data/ashamed-ashamed-reluctant-hesitant-smiley-emoticon-000445-large.gif)
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: cgutjahr on October 27, 2013, 01:17:31 AM
External hard drives are all the rage these days - there are very good reasons to have an external drive that can easily be disconnected.

While nobody would have bought an Overdrive for backup purposes 20 years ago, the hardware would have still allowed you to easily carry all your data or even your whole workbench setup around and turn any A1200 (the one in the office, at your friend's place, at a copy party) into your A1200.

I call that a major feature.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: scuzzb494 on October 27, 2013, 01:16:56 AM
Quote from: AmigaClassicRule;751177
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Commodore-AMIGA-1200-OVERDRIVE-External-PCMCIA-Hard-Disk-Drive-HDD-170-MB-Mo-/281194526580

Who here agrees that if someone owns an A1200 that he should never buy this? Why? Well, simply put A1200 already have an IDE port inside the motherboard....second...you lose your PCMCIA for a harddrive that could have being used for something more important than a harddrive.

Though....it does look sexy and elegant...it is a useless device. Unless people want to mimic Amiga 500 but with AGA capacity and does not mind their Amiga have no access to the internet.


Why is it useless... I have one of these.

http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/overdrive/a87_aod01.jpg

Remember back in those days there were those that didn't have the technical skill to open up the Amiga and slot on the hard drive. The mags at the time were filled with sidecars for the Amiga and this followed on the tradition of sidecars for the 500.  Few people actually used the PCMCIA port anyway, given that because of the demise of Commodore there were few products that were manufactured to use it. There really was no internet in truth in the way that we have today. I think you need to draw a distinction between an enthusiast who likes collecting and playing with Amiga gadgets and someone who is trying to use an Amiga 1200 as a usable computer. I have like a gzillion Amiga 1200s [ or feels like it ] and I bought one of these.... Easy, simple to use and you can simply unplug when you don't want to use it.


http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/amiga_scuzz22.htm

http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/amiga_scuzz30.htm

PS It also gave you the option of having two hard drives on your computer. How cool was that.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: freqmax on October 27, 2013, 10:17:27 AM
Quote from: scuzzb494;751205
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/amiga_scuzz22.htm


What is that (http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/overdrive/a88_aod02.jpg) adapter for GVP-HD+ for?
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: gertsy on October 27, 2013, 10:17:30 AM
What sort of transfer rates would you get through the PCMCIA port? I guess faster than a IDE hard disk could handle.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: Fransexy_ on October 27, 2013, 04:50:27 PM
Quote from: gertsy;751219
What sort of transfer rates would you get through the PCMCIA port? I guess faster than a IDE hard disk could handle.

16 bit PCMCIA on PC has a max theorical transfer rate of 32 MB/s, on Amiga PCMCIA you get 3-5 MB/s if i remember well
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: duga on October 27, 2013, 05:26:37 PM
Quote from: freqmax;751197
How about a cable from the motherboard thorough the plastic chassi to an external 3,5" drive?


Looks silly.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: duga on October 27, 2013, 05:27:09 PM
Quote from: freqmax;751218
What is that (http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/overdrive/a88_aod02.jpg) adapter for GVP-HD+ for?


Power.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: kickstart on October 27, 2013, 05:30:54 PM
Quote from: AmigaClassicRule;751177
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Commodore-AMIGA-1200-OVERDRIVE-External-PCMCIA-Hard-Disk-Drive-HDD-170-MB-Mo-/281194526580

Who here agrees that if someone owns an A1200 that he should never buy this? Why? Well, simply put A1200 already have an IDE port inside the motherboard....second...you lose your PCMCIA for a harddrive that could have being used for something more important than a harddrive.

Though....it does look sexy and elegant...it is a useless device. Unless people want to mimic Amiga 500 but with AGA capacity and does not mind their Amiga have no access to the internet.


You can put two IDE devices into the a1200 internal IDE, its too easy... if you uses the PCMCIA port with external harddisk, sample or whatever you cant use it with another PCMCIA at the same time, your post is a bit empty.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: Thorham on October 27, 2013, 05:48:20 PM
Quote from: duga;751245
Looks silly.

Indeed, but I rather have a large 3.5 inch HD and a nice 22 speed DVD rewriter any day of the week, even if it does look silly :p
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: psxphill on October 27, 2013, 06:47:22 PM
Quote from: AmigaClassicRule;751177
and does not mind their Amiga have no access to the internet.

That is what the serial port is for.
 
There are pro's and con's to using a PCMCIA hard drive.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: ferrellsl on October 27, 2013, 07:04:50 PM
Quote from: duga;751245
Looks silly.


It looks no more silly than the A1000 Sidecar or all the other external HD and memory  enclosures for the A500 and A1000.

And it's no more silly than all the external CD-ROMs that were connected to most Amigas.  It seems that no one here thinks external CD drives are ridiculous but they want to point fingers at external hard drives.  It doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: Thorham on October 27, 2013, 07:07:51 PM
Quote from: psxphill;751254
That is what the serial port is for.

Not anymore, or where you talking about back in the day?
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: som99 on October 27, 2013, 08:22:18 PM
Quote from: Fransexy_;751243
16 bit PCMCIA on PC has a max theorical transfer rate of 32 MB/s, on Amiga PCMCIA you get 3-5 MB/s if i remember well

Depends on what hardware you put there I guess, have not speed tested a CF or hard drive there but 3-5MB/s? seems fast, ive gotten about 400KB/s at most with peripherals added to the PCMCIA.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: scuzzb494 on October 27, 2013, 10:14:14 PM
Quote from: freqmax;751218
What is that (http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/overdrive/a88_aod02.jpg) adapter for GVP-HD+ for?


The adaptor is for the Overdrive and not the GVP. The Overdrive takes its power from the diskdrive port on the back of the Amiga. Bit like the VidiAmiga and other such equipment. The GVP also needs a power supply and sadly too many are sold on Ebay without them so always check what power supply is required and whether you have both halves of it.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: scuzzb494 on October 27, 2013, 10:24:50 PM
Then came The Squirrel.

http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/car_0807/car_2708_050.jpg

Though this is way better on the 1200....

http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/a_scuzz_nov02/a_scuzz_nov02_221.jpg
http://www.commodore-amiga-retro.com/amiga/a_scuzz_nov02/a_scuzz_nov02_220.jpg
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: takemehomegrandma on October 27, 2013, 11:00:16 PM
Quote from: AmigaClassicRule;751177
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Commodore-AMIGA-1200-OVERDRIVE-External-PCMCIA-Hard-Disk-Drive-HDD-170-MB-Mo-/281194526580

Who here agrees that if someone owns an A1200 that he should never buy this? Why? Well, simply put A1200 already have an IDE port inside the motherboard....second...you lose your PCMCIA for a harddrive that could have being used for something more important than a harddrive.

Though....it does look sexy and elegant...it is a useless device. Unless people want to mimic Amiga 500 but with AGA capacity and does not mind their Amiga have no access to the internet.


I had one of these back in the days, and it was far from useless to me back then. I bought my A1200 without HDD and added an internal 2.5" some time later on. Back then 2.5" drives were insane expensive and had very limited capacity compared to the bigger ones. If I remember correctly, I got myself a 60MB drive (yes MB, not GB) for a lot of money. When I had outgrown it, I had the option of either replacing it with a bigger one at a huge cost, or buy this product and use a cheaper and much bigger 3.5" HDD that could be used at the same time as my 2.5" internal one. I found the latter option the most preferable.

The only use for it today though, is probably if you need an external/portable HDD for some reason.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: freqmax on October 27, 2013, 11:10:19 PM
Quote from: scuzzb494;751268
The adaptor is for the Overdrive and not the GVP. The Overdrive takes its power from the diskdrive port on the back of the Amiga.

What is the Overdrive?

Quote from: psxphill;751254
That is what the serial port is for.
 
There are pro's and con's to using a PCMCIA hard drive.
Considering the amount of data used for internet, I think serial port on Amiga (max 19 200 bit/s) is simple not good enough. A side effect is higher CPU demand.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: Linde on October 27, 2013, 11:37:29 PM
Quote from: freqmax;751275
Considering the amount of data used for internet, I think serial port on Amiga (max 19 200 bit/s) is simple not good enough. A side effect is higher CPU demand.

Do you think that the serial port speed would usually have been an internet connectivity bottleneck in the early 90s? 19200 bps is not the limit, by the way. I guess it depends on the CPU/DMA load, but I can for example use stable MIDI (38400 bps) on my 8 MB fast RAM A1200. I'm sure you can on a stock 500 too.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: Tripitaka on October 28, 2013, 12:43:56 AM
Quote from: Astral;751199
@Darrin

+1. Nearly exactly what I was thinking.


+2

I remember well weighing up the choice between a sidecar drive and an internal 2.5 inch with a third of the capacity (or three times the price). Then I read a magazine article in which some clever bugger had squeezed a 3.5 inch drive into his A1200 internals (maybe hacked would be more accurate than squeezed XD ). Great idea, thought I..... If only I could do that without voiding my warranty.

In the end the choice was made for me by someone giving me a 20Mb 2.5" drive.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: freqmax on October 28, 2013, 01:04:11 AM
Asfair 19 200 bit/s was max on the A500 (if not 9600 bit/s) and there were modems above that quite soon. Then there were people with university network access via (C)SLIP etc.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: ungatonipon on October 28, 2013, 04:40:39 AM
Quote from: Tripitaka;751279
Then I read a magazine article in which some clever bugger had squeezed a 3.5 inch drive into his A1200 internals (maybe hacked would be more accurate than squeezed XD ). Great idea, thought I..... If only I could do that without voiding my warranty.


I actually did that. I had a 250 MB drive sitting in a drawer because I could not find a 2.5" to 3.5" adapter back then. Tired of waiting I decided to solder the 40 pin cable directly to the motherboard. Then plugged it into the drive and miraculously it worked fine. Then closed the A1200 with the drive inside, including the metal shield. It was a little bit forced, but just a little bit - actually the keyboard pressure helped to keep the drive fixed inside the computer.

It still works 19 years later. Some of this days I have to un-solder all those cables and change that drive with a CF card, it's one of my pending Amiga projects... but yes, it is possible to fit a 3.5" drive without much hassle into a A1200, I wouldn't call that hacking at all ;)
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: Amiga_Nut on October 28, 2013, 10:55:00 AM
This was on sale when new A1200s from C= were being sold so people who didn't want to void the warranty had no choice as shops were not allowed to open them up and upgrade them. You had to buy an overpriced 1200HD from day one or one of these so if you remember that then it obviously is not useless.

Today it is redundant given that you can pick up 2.5 inch IDE drives of 4gb capacity for pennies I agree.

Not having SIMM slots or a slot with a caddy for users to install their own hard drives was very short sighted of Commodore and only made it look like a toy to people who were considering an A1200 vs a low end 286. CPU/VIDEO/ZORRO slots we could all do without but not making the HD and memory easily (ie same cost as a PC) user upgradeable with cheap off the shelf PC/notebook parts was a terrible design idea.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: amiga1260 on October 28, 2013, 01:00:13 PM
Back in the days I almost bought this Overdrive HD, but I liked the Squirrel SCSI controller better, because you could connect up to 7 SCSI devices.

My first HD I bought is an IBM 2,5" 360 MB HD. It still working.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: AmigaClassicRule on October 28, 2013, 09:23:47 PM
Quote from: ferrellsl;751255
It looks no more silly than the A1000 Sidecar or all the other external HD and memory  enclosures for the A500 and A1000.

And it's no more silly than all the external CD-ROMs that were connected to most Amigas.  It seems that no one here thinks external CD drives are ridiculous but they want to point fingers at external hard drives.  It doesn't make sense.

Yeah it makes sense.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: ferrellsl on October 28, 2013, 09:59:35 PM
Quote from: AmigaClassicRule;751322
Yeah it makes sense.


That was my point.  I think the enclosure is just fine and it served a valuable purpose in its day.  When this was introduced there were very few if any PCMCIA cards available for use in an A1200, and with the price of RAM and hard drives at the time, no one was very worried about PCMCIA cards causing memory location problems.  It looks no better or worse than the countless other HD/RAM enclosures for other Amigas.    

Knowing what we do today and having so many other expansion options available at low cost, at first it does appear impractical, but in the proper historical context, it makes/made perfect sense.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: freqmax on October 29, 2013, 01:06:44 AM
In the Amiga haydays. Hardware in any form was expensive and thus you made the effort to save bucks.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: darksun9210 on November 04, 2013, 04:51:34 PM
yup yup. ever the cash strapped amiga users looking to get more for their money.

mate of mine had one of these, 470Mb IIRC. managed a stonking 2.7Mb/s! so cheaper and faster than the 2.5" drives of the time.

then someone else managed to shoehorn a slimline 1Gb 3.5" drive into their blizz030 powered 1200... like a mini arms race those days ;)
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: Iggy on November 04, 2013, 05:19:11 PM
Worst technology?
Nope, that either has to be the original IBM PC or any CDi player.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: Tripitaka on November 04, 2013, 05:50:01 PM
Quote from: ungatonipon;751290
I actually did that. I wouldn't call that hacking at all ;)


That's the attitude I like. I salute you sir.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: Tripitaka on November 04, 2013, 05:56:01 PM
Quote from: Iggy;751795
Worst technology?
Nope, that either has to be the original IBM PC or any CDi player.


I think you have a point but honestly, how about this?

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/geekstuff4u-microsd-ssd-converter,24512.html

Now if it was half the price it may be worthwhile.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: Iggy on November 04, 2013, 06:15:29 PM
Quote from: Tripitaka;751801
I think you have a point but honestly, how about this?

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/geekstuff4u-microsd-ssd-converter,24512.html

Now if it was half the price it may be worthwhile.


What a strange idea. I can understand Compact Flash being used for that, but SD cards?
Hey, if I didn't know that the intense use writing and re-writing to these would result in early failure...I might be dumb enough to buy one.
Title: Re: Who here agrees this is the worst technology...
Post by: freqmax on November 05, 2013, 03:03:32 AM
Quote from: Iggy;751795
Worst technology?
Nope, that either has to be the original IBM PC or any CDi player.


Th IBM PC is a prime example of "suits" being unable to proper technical decisions. Beep-beep, monochrome graphics, no hardware acceleration, ISA bus in comparision to the Amiga.. even the C64 would make a dent....

But it had the IBM logo, the most valuable item for people without a clue at the time.