Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => Amiga OS => Amiga OS -- Development => Topic started by: melott on February 08, 2004, 04:01:18 PM
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I'm a beginner programmer (a wanna be
programmer).
I'd like to find a few other beginners to form
a group. Work on a project togather, would all
learn more and faster that way.
I don't have any project in mind, let the group
decide.
I lean toward Blitz or AmiBlitz. I think its
probably the most advanced since its still
supported but can be flexable on which language.
Anyone else interested??
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You mean, Blitz Basic?
From what I've heard of beginning with Basic, it messes you up as programmer. Pascal is the best programming language for beginners for as far as I know
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Many people say so, but as you - if you do programming seriously - will have to go into C/C++ later, I personally would recommend going into C instead (not C++, too complicated for beginners). And probably not using all features of the language yet as this would be confusing for a beginner... instead of a - in the meanwhile - "exote" like Pascal...
My opinion at least :)
Steffen
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Delphi ("successor of Pascal") is far from uncommon as far as I know
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The reason I mention Blitz (AmiBlitz) is I'm
on the BlitzMail list. It is well supported
and answers to problems are easy to get. Just
post to the Blitz list and have an answer very
fast. (good knowledgeable answers from experts)
I'm not tring to start a major debate on which
is the best language, just tring to get a group
togather for learning programing.
Whatever language is choosen will be best for
all.
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I'm willing to help you, but I do not have any experience with Blitz (Basic?). You can come up with problems wich are specific for that language and then I do not have an answer for you.
But you can always ask me for non-specific issues.
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@melott:
yes, blitz is good for learning to code. I also started with BlitzBasic2 (today: AmiBlitz). The advantage is that you will get fast results in short time which is more fun for beginners. :-)
But when you want to code bigger projects you'll have to learn C. Period. :-)
regards,
tokai
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I feel I must speak up and voice my humble opinion here.
If you want to learn to program, you should start as you mean to go on and make the effort to learn a language such as C++ or Java.
Yes you could learn Blitz Basic for quick results but you'll then be restricted to a single platform and stuck in a procedural mind set.
In practice, programming is easy, it's design thats hard which is why I feel it's vital to learn good OO design practices and a OO language such as C++ or Java.
Another benefit of these languages is the vast amount of resources freely available online from training sites to source code.
I think you will find that C, C++ and Java isn't really that difficult to learn.
All of these languages use a small command set with a small number of rules and constructs which can be combined in a unlimited number of ways, hence the power and flexibility.
To be honest, I'm a bit out of touch on the Amiga programming side, working as a software engineer and architect on the Windows platform so I can't really voice a opinion on the best software development toolkits to use but I'd have to agree with many of the posts above and say the only way is the C, C++ and Java way to get some really useful programming and design experience.
Incidentally, having not used a Amiga for about 10 years and having just picked up a new A4000 (yes, new and still boxed...I can't believe my luck :-), I would be very interested in knowing the state of play in the Amiga community for good development IDE's, compilers and toolkits.
What C, C++ and Java development systems are people using? Specialised development systems or GCC? Any guides listing the Amiga API set and guidelines?
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@DarrenOP
Any guides listing the Amiga API set and guidelines?
Get the DevCD 2.1, it contains everything you need to program AmigaOS up to 3.5, including the RKRMs (for 2.04) and Includes and AutoDocs and examples. You also get a version of StormC included for non-commercial use.
Failing that, wait for OS4 as the APIs etc will be updated, and there will be a new NDK. I have also heard that they are planning to update the RKRMs to cover OS4.0, which will be well worth getting hold of.
There won't be any major differences between coding for 3.x and 4.0 though.
Chris
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This is getting into a debate I hadn't intended.
Anyone interested .. please EMail or PMail me.
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If you want to learn C on AmigaOS I strongly suggest to join the amiga-c mailing list on yahoo. There is quite a bit of skilled people there, I've seen a lot of people (including me) learning a lot on that list.
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melott wrote:
I'm a beginner programmer (a wanna be
programmer).
I'd like to find a few other beginners to form
a group. Work on a project togather, would all
learn more and faster that way.
I don't have any project in mind, let the group
decide.
I lean toward Blitz or AmiBlitz. I think its
probably the most advanced since its still
supported but can be flexable on which language.
Anyone else interested??
I am very interested in learning C programming (I have made some brief tries a couple of times, but stalled). I already know Basic!
Your thought of forming a "beginners group" is a good idea! :-) Perhaps someone with experience could volunteer as a mentor for such a sorry bunch? ;-) That would be great!
I agree with MagicSN that one should start in small scale, with the easy ways. The focus should (at least in the beginning) be on C programming techniques, compiler usage, and such, rather than advanced OS features and functions. Therefore, the "learning projects" should IMHO be quite simple, bare bone, nothing fancy, and in an "Open Amiga (http://www.openamiga.org/) spirit". By that I mean a focus on the AmigaOS 3.1 API, which at least in theory should make it possible to use all 4 flavours of the platform (at least in theory); the Amiga, the A1/OS4, the Pegasos/MorphOS and AROS. Right?
Anyone else interested in a C beginners group? Any volunteer mentors? :-)
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EDIT - removed by myself for being really off-topic.
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I'd be happy to mentor an Amiga C programming group. I have a few tutorials (http://www.liquido2.com/tutorial) that I created which some may find useful. These tutorials are works in progress. I'd certainly be willing to help anyone who is interested in learning Amiga programming. Feel free to e-mail me with any ideas or questions. Perhaps a seperate Yahoo group is in order?
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I'd be up for following some C tutorials. I did some C programming during my Physics degree, all but forgot it, then had to do a C++ module for my masters. Came top off my class but I fear its all forgotten again.
I have Borland for Windoze but don't have an AmigaDOS C package....
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Well... there are 3 of us interested in a group.
Its a good start..
Anyone else??
Its a good opportunity to get started.
PMail or EMail me
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Yup. I'm interested in C tutorials as well. I was just thinking about this yesterday. :-)
That's four.
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Start with C (or C++ if you want to get a little bit advanced)
If you start with basic, you will learn some bad habbits and probably carry some of them to C or C++ when you eventually start with them.
Starting with C or C++ will help you learn structured (or in the case of C++ OO) programming.
These languages will be of much more use in the long run, and they're (well, C anyway) not that difficult to learn :)
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I'm just beginning to learn C as well. So far written a few simple progs which compile and run :-)
BASIC is too limiting, and assembly is too processor specific, so I decided it was time to put them aside and finally learn C. I intend to get into programming MUI interfaces eventually when I learn more, so any advice about beginning with MUI would be much appreciated.
If anyone wants a little info on Amiga C compilers, email me. I picked up a copy of SAS/C with manuals, etc, 2nd hand and have used the patches from Aminet to upgrade it to the latest version. Goes OK so far.
As for learning, there are a few excellent tutorials on the web, but personally I find it easier working from a book. Picked up a couple of beginners C books cheaply as well which have been good so far.
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I tried to do something similar to this last year.
http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=431 (http://amigaworld.net/modules/news/article.php?storyid=431)
I got a lot of interest from people wanting to learn programming in C, but I couldn't get any mentors. I even had some discussions with some groups that might of been interested in helping, but it never got anywhere. It just seemed that programmers didn't feel they could spare the time to help out.
I wish you guys good luck with this, and I hope you will have more success than I did.
Working with someone else on your first project is an excellent way to learn, you really do benefit from it. I've learnt a hell of a lot working with someone, and have got much further than I ever would by myself (if not just from the extra encouragement).
My final words of experience are - Learn the basics and learn them well It's very easy to get carried away and start to run before you can walk, and skip stuff you don't think is necessary.
Good Luck guys, and happy coding :-D
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I would be interested to participate. I have studied a wee little
C++, but no Amiga-specific programming whatsoever. A
Yahoo! Group on the subject sounds like a good idea.
.
SlimJim
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@Sidewinder
Btw, I glanced through your tutorials, and they look great!
Very clear and precise. Certainly more of that caliber is
needed in the community to help kicking the hobby
programming scene into living again.
Here's hoping you find the time to continue creating further
tutorials.
Certainly a place I will start from when I've got AOS4 in my
hand!
.
SlimJim
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You must of course be modern and code for the AmigaOS 3.9 API, not 3.1! What is the point of an advanced operating system such as OS3.9 if nothing is written to take advantage of it!?
I have done some example programs to help beginners; they are dev/src/GadgetExample.lha (demonstrates OS1.x, OS2.x, and OS3.5+ buttons) and dev/src/TextEditorExample.lha (demonstrates ReAction text editor gadget). There are also other good resources on Aminet which will be of assistance to you, and of course the ADCD2.1 is a must. I have made a superior front end: docs/hyper/Companion.lha.
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There are a lot of sentiments expressed in this thread from people who (actually like myself) prefer one language over another.
I think we need to take a small step backwards and consider how languages appear to the absolute beginner.
I agree that BASIC is largely an unstructured language (that can teach bad habits), but if it helps an absolute beginner grasp concepts such as variables, constants, looping, decision making, subroutines, etc. it isn't a bad foundation.
My feelings are, if you know these from basic, go on and move to C. If you don't know, then BASIC is an easier language than C for learning these concepts. Then move to C.
It's all too easy for those of us who use languages like C/C++ to forget that at some distant point in the past we also used basic on our Spectrums, C64's and even amigas, so even if we did forget the bad habits of BASIC, it still gave us some advantage when we began with C.
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OK .. things are looking good....
Looks like there are 5 of us now.
Remember.. we are all beginners
Anyone else want to join ??
Send me a PMail or EMail
Mel
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Exactly, wise words worth heeding.
Pick a language, ideally a well supported and flexible language and learn it well.
C is C is C on any platform and the same applies to C++ and Java.
All these languages in their pure form are relatively simple to learn and use with lots of generic guides and tutorials which apply equally well to any platform.
The complexity comes from large scale projects but this will apply to any language....besides, as a rule, if it looks complex, it's probably wrong.
By the way, thanks for the information about the developer kits and resources, I'll look at getting hold of them.
I had a look at the AmigaOS API's last night, almost itching to experiment now :-)
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Some kind of infrastructure would be necessary for this, don't you agree?
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E anyone?
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Well, at least noone has suggested ASM yet! So, I think we're safe. :-D
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BASIC teaches you how to write algorythms without knowing anything about types. Perl is decent for that, although it's a real pain to debug, and completely innappropriate for large programs, like the awful BBS I have to maintain. I don't even know if Perl is available for Amiga.
I'd recommend starting off with plain ANSI C. There's lots of books availabe, it compiles everywhere, and just about any ANSI C book starts you right off with how computers compile programs, treat datatypes properly, and produce modular code, which is nearly impossible in BASIC. Also, ANSI C is a rock-bottom standard, so many books treat you like a beginner and don't bowl you over with technical information. C also has tons of libraries that make jumping into graphics and sound very easy, like SDL and Allegro. They're not very efficient or fast, but you can do cool stuff very quickly. I really wish I hadn't relied so much on AMOS early on.
Most importantly of all, GET A DECENT IDE!!! Notepad and Emacs drive me insane. I need something that color-codes commands, checks syntax, and matches brackets. I use TextPad or EditPlus. Later on, you can move on to a real editor. On the PC, High-end compilers like MS Visual C tend to put a lot of C++ stuff in their IDE, and are wicked expensive. If you're talking about *only* producing code on the Amiga, I have no clue.
There's many reasons C hasn't changed much since it was introduced. It's the language to learn. ;-)
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Hi Melott.
I'm interested in joining the group too and learn C.
Saluditos,
Ferrán.
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The OS4, MOS & AROS definately need more programmers to work on apps so it's good to see that there is some interest.
Anybody learning to program should forget C, and focus on C++ instead. Some of the comments have suggested the opposite, because C++ is more complex. This is true, but the complicated language features aren't going to be even remotely touched upon by a beginner anyway.
The C++ features that a beginner will learn, such as I/O and the string class, are far simpler than C's equivalents anyway, and C, for the most part, is compilable in a C compiler.
As to the people who suggested learning Java - how is that going to benefit Amiga-ish systems?! If you know C++ you can learn any other language in no time, as it's the big beast of programming languages, but it wouldn't be the case with Java which is far simpler.
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As for mentors, I'm not sure they are needed either. There is no point in people writing C++ tutorials when there are hundreds of excellent textbooks that do the same thing.
For Amiga programming, the ROM Kernel Manuals and tonnes of examples and articles on the Amiga developer CD 2.1 is more than enough too.
There are the "Developers" forums here on amiga.org that new developers can use to ask questions. I will pay more attention to these in future and help where I can.
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I'd like to join the C group as well. I have some
limited programming experience in C and I have been
involved in a small and simple project (a small
shootemup using allegro with my sister, it was
never really finished). I'd like to get deeper:)
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Well, I started off with C it personally suits my mindset far more
than the OO languages.
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So is "C" going to be the language you'all are going to use? That would be great... btw, there are GREAT books on C programming, even for a BEGINNER!! :) I have a old one which is still made called "Teach Yourself C Programming in 21 days". Get it. Trust me, you WILL be coding in 21 days or less!!!
If you do C, I want to join, that way I can learn this damn MUI thing. :-)
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I'd really like to learn C++, which I have been doing slowly for a while now, but doing a project in C with a group of other people sounds like an excellent way to learn. I'd like in if it's OK.
I haven't got an Amiga at the moment, A1 + OS4 being saved for, so will you be starting with simple , cross platform programs?
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I'd love to join in on C++ to help reinforce my knowledge of pointers. I also don't have an Amiga but would be willing to use UAE for development. I've already got quite a few languages I know but something like this would help fine tune my abilities.
:pint:
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I would like to use SAS/C all over again--god, I haven't that in ages! I'm currently using BlitzBasic2 ATM. :-)
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Well guys ......
Those who wanted to join a 'C' group nows the
chance.
I had origonally wanted to start a 'Basic' group
but those that said they were interested,, well
who knows what happened. I didn't get any
feed back " so 'C' it is."
My reasons for not wanting 'C' is LACK of support.
I have seen many 'C' questions asked here and
beg for answers and not get them. My concern is
all this supposed support just disappears when
you NEED it.
Anyone interested .. PMail or EMail me
By the way .. does anyone know of a good EMail
handler?? (Yahoo doesn't seem to work)
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smithy wrote:
As for mentors, I'm not sure they are needed either. There is no point in people writing C++ tutorials when there are hundreds of excellent textbooks that do the same thing.
Mentors really would be there for guidance and helping with problems more than writing tutorials I'd think. Books are good, but being able to talk to a real-life person about the specific problem you are having, is much better.
For Amiga programming, the ROM Kernel Manuals and tonnes of examples and articles on the Amiga developer CD 2.1 is more than enough too.
the Dev CD is a good source of info, however the quality and quantity of information (particularly more recent stuff) varies quite considerably.
Also AmigaGuide is not the ideal format for the RKMs. The RKMs are an amazing source of info, The Amiga "Bible" almost, but they're best in hardcopy (which is unfortunately difficult to find), and this electronic version seriously hinders usefulness IMO.
There are the "Developers" forums here on amiga.org that new developers can use to ask questions. I will pay more attention to these in future and help where I can.
Thats good to know, I'll also give a hand where I can (but I'm not very advanced myself). it would be best though if they had a couple of people on thier yahoogroup/ML that could answer questions directly.
Finally, here is a link that I've found useful in the past (about MUI and GCC) - http://www.ezcyberspace.com/gcc/ (http://www.ezcyberspace.com/gcc/)
Happy Coding :-)
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I wouldn't mind offering advice on C or C++ programming problems or advice on software design or identifying design patterns etc, its just having the time.
It may be worth setting up some form of web based forum where people can post questions, work together on projects and share experiences or advice.
That wouldn't take too much of anyone's time and would help to build some form of small community of beginners.
As mentioned above, theres loads of great training material freely available online already and lots of good books so you don't really need tutors.
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I'm interested in the group.
I've got a computer science degree so I have some experience in C and C++ but I want to get into for the Amiga.
So count me in.
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Woah, I just checked out that MUI tutorial code. Thanks a lot... It really opened my eyes.
First the good part. There was a lot of functionality in the examples. And I wasn't as frightened off as I thought I would be.
The bad part. There were no comments in the code, which are absolutely essential in tutorials, and I didn't know what the hell was going on beyond realising that there was some sort of structure getting populated. At least I think it was a structure. And I have no idea of what that structure is. Hell, it looked greek.
It could just be that this is just not the way I am used to programming. I come from a windows .NET and Java background and I've used C/C++ on simple pc text based applications at various banks. You may scoff at the high level languages I just mentioned but they are a zillion times more user friendly and productive and clearer to understand than the code I just saw. They have to be.
What I can't believe is that people actually program this way. WTF!!! No wonder beginners have no idea where to start.
The first thing I think I'm going to do, unless someone tells me it already exists, for the entire Amiga community, and especially the beginners, is encapsulate the library into C++ classes that are friendly to highlevel windows coders. Not the windows C++ programmers, who are just too clever. It just seems like too much low level gobbledy gook C code. I can understand for a game, but for standard UI development this is just too much.
I must, I simply must, create things like form object classes and various user control classes with all the relevant properties easily accessible. And I'll have to figure out an event driven kind of model somehow rather than just rely on a running loop. Yeah, I'll probably have to write a GUI builder too, maybe even automate the event handling. Looking at the code I can already see how I could do that. And Gosh, I'll have to dig up that String object manipulation code I wrote like 10 or more years ago.
This is just too bizzare. I really can't believe people are still programming this way. No really, is this some sort of joke? Is this really the way you're expecting people to program? What is the easiest to use application development environment/libraries on the Amiga at the moment? Is it what I just saw? GeekGadgets?
If this is the state of Amiga programming then expect an infusion of different ideas from the other established platforms, because this way of programming is just not going to sit well with us. We gotta bring the Amiga programming community into the 21st century.
Sorry if I sounded adversarial, I'm just a little disappointed as I just realised I've got a lot more work to do than I thought to port what I've been building for the last couple of months and I've got to get cracking.
I guess I musn't be surprised as event driven programming came out around the mid nineties and probably never existed in the Amiga's heydey. I guess it could have been worse.
Are you sure there isn't anything that does event driven programming? Because really the newbies are gonna love it. I don't care what language it is.
Man, this just brings it home that we need java on Amiga, if only to use something like JBuilder to program on a different platform. It'll practically build the entire app for you, with all the event handlers. I probably could have built the examples visually faster than it took to read them. We really are missing out otherwise.
Please, let me know. No really. I mean, I'll clean this whole thing up I will, for the good of everyone. It doesn't look that hard to do. Maybe a couple of months of work and I'll probably have to do it anyway to port my app. I tinkered with building an XML DOM parser, that works, and a simple SQL developer database a little while ago that I could include. Hell.... I could really do this.
Hmmmmm. If there is a need for such a thing I think I could do it. If I'm gonna spend all that time though, I might really go for it and make it a marketable product.
Do you think it is something you would be interested in purchasing?
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I've got all the basics of C++ set, but I could need some more C/Amiga experience so I'd like to join... Are there any one i control of this then?
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BigBenAussie wrote:
Do you think it is something you would be interested in purchasing?
Mate, if you can do all that, I'll buy it :-D
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BigBen: I agree with you on MUI. And yes, a SQL db, jbuilder etc
would be very useful!
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The Amiga API hasn't really been changed from its original design which was developed in the mid 80s. Back then C was the language of choice and C++ wasn't really in the picture. The Amiga OS (even the 1985 version 1.0) uses the concept of BOOPSI (Basic Object Oriented Programming System for Intuition) for GUI design and the idea of Messages and Ports to facilitate event driven programming. MUI too was developed prior to the rush to C++ and maintained the original, basic OOP concepts that Amiga programmers were familiar with. These concepts really aren't that strange. Many of the same concepts are found in the Microsoft Windows API. But the problem is that the Amiga API development stopped back in 1994 with the death of Commodore. This was a time period just before C++ became the real standard in application programming. Later revisions of the AmigaOS by third parties did not bother to update the API because it really would take a lot of time and effort. In contrast, the Microsoft developed the Microsoft Foundataion Classes (MFC) to wrap around its API in the late 1990s. These classes allow the developer to forget much of what is going on behind the scenes with the API and see only an Object Oriented environment. If you were able to develop something like "Amiga Foundation Classes" I'm sure that many Amiga programmers would purchase it. I know that I would.
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Yeah, just as I thought.
IMHO MFC or AFC would still be a little too complex for beginners but would still be worthwhile.
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@Sidewinder
BOOPSI in AOS1.0 ? How did I miss that ????? :-P
BOOPSI was (along with taglists) THE major shift in the 1.3 to 2.0 upgrade, allowing for stuff like custom-gadgets done in a somewhat
sane way, and later on datatypes.
But I must admit that looking back, useing it for GUIs embeeded into the app pretty much seems like a design-error.
Another "feature" that makes securing AmigaOS with MP and suchlike impossible.
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@Kronos
Oops, now that I think about it a bit more you're right. :oops: I cracked open the old Intuition manual and 2.0 was the introduction of BOOPSI. :rtfm: My bad. Anyway, the event driven concepts have always been there through ports and messages. I think I will just go back to coding now... :nervous:
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What I can't believe is that people actually program this way
One word: power.
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Woah...I just came accross this.
Amiga Foundation Classes.
http://afc.sourceforge.net/
I haven't had a good read.
Whaddayathink?
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I am joining this thread rather late, so, please excuse me if I repeat anything that has been said before.
Let me start by saying that I think this is a wonderful idea.
Referring back to an earlier post from DarrenOP I believe, I have to say that I agree with the concept that if you are going to embark on this you should do so with your end goal in mind. If the goal is to learn C++, for example, you might want to start with C++. The ramp-up time might be a bit difficult, but, in the end you will be better for it, in my very humble opinion.
Also, if I may suggest this, you might want to immediately look into getting a copy of the Amiga Rom Kernel Manual - Libraries. This RKM is very well written, with lots of example code and explanations. I think that it also would be helpful in the sense that the Libraries RKM has information in it pertaining to the kind of "instant gratification" items that a beginner might want right away. Such as opening windows and the like. Also, since the Amiga is mostly based in the C space, you can pick up any decent ANSI C book for a desk reference.
If it would be helpful, I would be glad to assist in any way that I can. I am a senior software developer and also do some work with architecture and design. All that I ask is that my involvement be strictly in the scope of the Amiga. I spend my days battling with Microsoft's brain dead API's and I would rather spend my off time working on a platform that was done right ther first time.
Thanks,
Mike