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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: XDelusion on October 08, 2013, 02:47:24 AM

Title: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: XDelusion on October 08, 2013, 02:47:24 AM
I've seen people take SID chips and create little synth boxes to be controlled via MIDI. Seems a lot of people are willing to pay a nice amount to have such a thing.

 So I'm wondering, how come nobody seems to be doing this with the Paula chip? Also has the Paula chip been cloned?
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 08, 2013, 03:02:22 AM
Paula is a plain D/A chip with two butterworth filters. It doesn't offer anything special. The SID has custom and rare "faulty" chip die with a special sound.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: SysAdmin on October 08, 2013, 03:51:09 AM
I didn't know Mrs. Butterworth help design Paula.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CKe7uAB2ZM&sns=em
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 08, 2013, 04:04:31 AM
They have. It's called an "Amiga."
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Iggy on October 08, 2013, 04:32:41 AM
Quote from: freqmax;749566
Paula is a plain D/A chip with two butterworth filters. It doesn't offer anything special. The SID has custom and rare "faulty" chip die with a special sound.


Well, frankly neither is anything special.
If I was building a retro system today, I'd use a cheap Yamaha sound chip with wavetable capability and Midi support.

These run about $4.00 on eBay.
Paula's start at about $8.00.
And the prices people pay for SIDs (many of which are faulty or fake) is plainly stupid.

If you like some pointers to useful Yamaha designs i can show you a few.

Frankly, Commodore fanatics have always dismayed me.
I mean, get over it guys, the 6502/6510 was a pretty lousy processor.
I've always preferred Motorola's stuff.
And the Amiga is neat, but as a hardware focused system (rather than something more adaptable with drivers for varying hardware). It was doomed to fail as hardware development accelerated faster than Commodore could keep up with.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 08, 2013, 05:04:57 AM
Oh pshaw. The SID will blow any generic-ass wavetable GM box completely out of the water for sheer sonic character. Hell, even Yamaha's old FM chips would outshine the generic XG crap they poop out now, if used well. And hey, Paula as well has its own particular character (thanks to the gritty early digital sound tamed by a bit of filtering,) even if it is just a sample-playback affair.

But it's silly to think that it'd be worth the trouble trying to create a dedicated module version; for one thing, as freqmax points out, Paula itself is only DACs and filters, and requires Agnus to actually get its data. For another, you need a system to load samples into memory, interpret incoming MIDI events, assign channels, and apply effects like volume envelopes anyway. At that point, you're already halfway to an Amiga.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Thorham on October 08, 2013, 06:21:48 AM
Quote from: commodorejohn;749573
And hey, Paula as well has its own particular character (thanks to the gritty early digital sound tamed by a bit of filtering,) even if it is just a sample-playback affair.
I keep reading that, but I sure don't hear it when I playback CD audio in 14bit at 44Khertz. The only thing I hear is some noise in very soft parts of the music.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: bbond007 on October 08, 2013, 06:24:23 AM
Quote from: commodorejohn;749573
Oh pshaw. The SID will blow any generic-ass wavetable GM box completely out of the water for sheer sonic character. Hell, even Yamaha's old FM chips would outshine the generic XG crap they poop out now, if used well. And hey, Paula as well has its own particular character (thanks to the gritty early digital sound tamed by a bit of filtering,) even if it is just a sample-playback affair.

But it's silly to think that it'd be worth the trouble trying to create a dedicated module version; for one thing, as freqmax points out, Paula itself is only DACs and filters, and requires Agnus to actually get its data. For another, you need a system to load samples into memory, interpret incoming MIDI events, assign channels, and apply effects like volume envelopes anyway. At that point, you're already halfway to an Amiga.


MT32 is still the best :)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 08, 2013, 07:26:02 AM
Quote from: Thorham;749574
I keep reading that, but I sure don't hear it when I playback CD audio in 14bit at 44Khertz. The only thing I hear is some noise in very soft parts of the music.
I'd count that as a bit different, though, since the 14-bit trick is circumventing one of the chief aspects (the 8-bit sample depth) that adds that grit in the first place, and software mixing is going to resample everything to the master sample rate, possibly with interpolation, as opposed to the varying rates and lack of interpolation used when playing back samples on individual channels. (Also, if it's on an ECS/AGA machine, it's maybe running at a higher maximum sample rate, which would affect it as well.) All told, you're working around a number of things that non-AHI audio does to the signal.

It's also possible that my perception of the "Amiga sound" is affected by the speaker characteristics of the 1084, but I recall it being pretty noticeable over external speakers as well...

Quote from: bbond007;749575
MT32 is still the best :)
The MT-32's pretty great alright :) Even if I have been a bit spoiled for lesser Roland LA synths by getting to play a D-50...
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: aggro_mix on October 08, 2013, 08:41:00 AM
Why would anyone want a rompler/sample player around Paula? If the desire is to play back 8 bit samples there are easier ways.

The SID machines aren't used for replaying samples are they?
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: TCMSLP on October 08, 2013, 09:21:18 AM
I think this is a common misunderstanding;  people don't realise Paula is just a sample playback chip.  They hear it produce 'chip' music and assume it's being synthesised - it's an easy mistake to make.

If you want to recreate that 8 bit sound an old dedicated sampler like an Akai S2000 would do this 'out of the box' - one of the reasons they were used for old-school hiphop beats.   They already have the midi gear and floppy/scsi interface built around them.  Why reinvent the wheel?  

Regardless of what others may say - the SID chip is unique.  There weren't any pre-built synths that could sound anything like it;  it was worthy of development into the SidStation.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 08, 2013, 09:25:22 AM
If it ain't better than a FPGA + D/A then it's not worthwhile. Said combination can also do filters in the digital domain. And at that point the Amiga custom chip loose.

The SID 6581 might worthwhile to reimplement. And then it better be done this way to be worthwhile at all:
Quote from: enwp: MOS Technology SID
The PhoenixSID 65X81 (http://www.myhdl.org/doku.php/projects:phoenixsid_65x81) project (2006) aimed to faithfully create the SID sound using modern hardware. The workings of a SID chip were recreated on an FPGA, based on interviews with the SID's creator, original datasheets, and comparisons with real SID chips. It was distinguished from similar attempts by its use of real analog circuitry instead of emulation for the legendary SID filter. However, the project was discontinued, because George Pantazopoulos (http://www.myhdl.org/doku.php/users:george_pantazopoulos), who was the head of this project, died on April 23, 2007, at the age of 29.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Jpan1 on October 08, 2013, 11:13:06 AM
With a some tinkering and soldering the Amiga could be wedged internally into a controller midi controller keyboard, and used for sample reply via midi - although an external LCD display or monitor+mouse would still be needed to choose samples and so on through a suitable programme.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Thorham on October 08, 2013, 02:45:16 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;749579
I'd count that as a bit different, though, since the 14-bit trick is circumventing one of the chief aspects (the 8-bit sample depth) that adds that grit in the first place

Sure, but all 8bit samples, regardless of hardware, will sound like that.

Quote from: commodorejohn;749579
All told, you're working around a number of things that non-AHI audio does to the signal.

Well, I'm not using AHI (don't have it installed), and play CD audio back with Hippo player. The only non-standard thing here is the playback rate of 44Khz (using a 31Khz screen mode). It's still Paula playing a few samples with DMA however (and Paula can go much faster than DMA), so I'm still not convinced ;)

Quote from: commodorejohn;749579
It's also possible that my perception of the "Amiga sound" is affected by the speaker characteristics of the 1084, but I recall it being pretty noticeable over external speakers as well...

Perhaps it has something to do with it. My Amiga is connected to an amp with reasonable headphones, and when I listen to CD audio, I just hear sound that sounds almost the same as what my peecee produces. Back in the day they used to say the Amiga has CD quality sound. Turns out to be almost true.

Anyway, you've gotta use an amp with proper speakers or phones for your Amiga. Those internal monitor speakers do the thing justice ;)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: nicholas on October 08, 2013, 04:23:28 PM
Quote from: Jpan1;749590
With a some tinkering and soldering the Amiga could be wedged internally into a controller midi controller keyboard, and used for sample reply via midi - although an external LCD display or monitor+mouse would still be needed to choose samples and so on through a suitable programme.

I know Karlos uses an A1200 controlled by MIDI for sample playback if that counts.  Basically an AKAI sampler clone.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Linde on October 08, 2013, 05:09:06 PM
Quote from: TCMSLP;749583
I think this is a common misunderstanding;  people don't realise Paula is just a sample playback chip.  They hear it produce 'chip' music and assume it's being synthesised - it's an easy mistake to make.


It's a sample playback chip for sure, but it has some characteristics that aren't that common:

All the channels are played back at independent rates, and the possible rates are all at even divisions of the base clock, meaning that there won't be any aliasing no matter the playback frequency. This would be possible on any sound card, really, except the clock rate of the Paula dwarves the playback rates of modern sound cards, meaning much less frequency resolution for playback without aliasing (or complex algorithms to .

The second thing to consider is the modulation options on it. It lets channels modulate either the playback rate or the amplitude of eachother.

A third thing is that it has programmable volume control independent of output waveform, meaning that even at the lowest possible volume setting, you'll still have full 8-bit resolution.

Besides these things, except for setting the DMA pointers and loop lengths up, the chip is controlled much like a typical PSG of the time.

It might be a misunderstanding to say that it synthesizes sound (depending on the definition of synthesis; technically, if you go by a generic dictionary definition of the word, it does) but it's safe to say that it's a unique chip with some characteristics that distinguishes it from both earlier and later sample playback devices.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 08, 2013, 05:10:00 PM
Quote from: freqmax;749585
If it ain't better than a FPGA + D/A then it's not worthwhile. Said combination can also do filters in the digital domain. And at that point the Amiga custom chip loose.
Depends. Filters are tricky beasts that impose their own particular character on a sound, and they're rarely identical just for having the same basic specs. The 12db/oct. low-pass filters in my Matrix-6, my JX-10, and my MS-20 Mini don't sound at all the same, even when you don't have the resonance cranked up. Nothing in all the world but a Moog filter sounds like a Moog filter (except for the various naked clones of the Moog filter that were kiboshed for patent infringement!) It's probably possible to come up with a good emulation of the Amiga's filter, but it's not as simple as just "oh, digital filter, 12db, done."

Quote from: Thorham;749593
Sure, but all 8bit samples, regardless of hardware, will sound like that.
Yes, but again, it's only one part of the equation.

Quote
Well, I'm not using AHI (don't have it installed), and play CD  audio back with Hippo player. The only non-standard thing here is the  playback rate of 44Khz (using a 31Khz screen mode). It's still Paula  playing a few samples with DMA however (and Paula can go much faster  than DMA), so I'm still not convinced ;)
Well, you're still circumventing the 8-bit aspect, and you're also doing  playback at 44KHz instead of x-28KHz, both of which bring the  sound much closer in line with modern specs. Of course that's  gonna sound different than a game playing back 8-bit samples at varying,  sub-28KHz rates.

Understand, I'm not saying that the Amiga can only do  oldschool-type sounds - I'm just saying that what we may generally think  of as the "Amiga sound" has a lot to do with the way it was originally  designed to be used, whatever clever workarounds we've come up with  since then.

Quote
Perhaps it has something to do with it. My Amiga is connected to  an amp with reasonable headphones, and when I listen to CD audio, I just  hear sound that sounds almost the same as what my peecee produces. Back  in the day they used to say the Amiga has CD quality sound. Turns out  to be almost true.

Anyway, you've gotta use an amp with proper speakers or phones for your  Amiga. Those internal monitor speakers do the thing justice ;)
Oh, I have run mine through proper speakers, and it's plenty nice. I  just find that, for classic games and vintage MOD playback at least, I  kinda like the things that are done to the sound by the 1084. It sounds  right, to me.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Linde on October 08, 2013, 05:16:15 PM
Quote from: Thorham;749593
Sure, but all 8bit samples, regardless of hardware, will sound like that.


Just to be nitpicking on something I otherwise would totally agree with: The DACs in the Amiga aren't exactly linear, quite far from it. I think they do PWM, but some part of the circuitry (lack of proper signal buffering?) is making the waveform irregular, so it won't sound like any other 8-bit sample hardware (which most probably all have their own non-linearities and quirks)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Linde on October 08, 2013, 05:22:46 PM
Quote from: Iggy;749572
Well, frankly neither is anything special.
If I was building a retro system today, I'd use a cheap Yamaha sound chip with wavetable capability and Midi support.

What definition of the world "special" do you subscribe to, not to include the SID?

Quote from: Iggy;749572
Frankly, Commodore fanatics have always dismayed me.
I mean, get over it guys, the 6502/6510 was a pretty lousy processor.

I think that if the qualities of the CPU was the question for any of these people, they would have abandoned their platform a long time ago (along with the M68k series).
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 08, 2013, 05:55:24 PM
Perhaps they were coding for the  6502/m68k CPU when their best learning window (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_period_hypothesis) was open.. ;)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: minator on October 08, 2013, 08:52:56 PM
Quote from: TCMSLP;749583
I think this is a common misunderstanding;  people don't realise Paula is just a sample playback chip.  They hear it produce 'chip' music and assume it's being synthesised - it's an easy mistake to make.


It was mostly used for playing back samples but it can do far more.

Paula can do:
Sample playback.
Loop playback - it's an oscillator.
If the 68K changes the waveform it's looping you get wavetable synthesis (think PPG synths).
Modulation of channels with AM and/or FM so:
- FM synthesis.
- AM synthesis.
- FM + AM synthesis.
Non-DMA playback. The processor to produces waveforms on the fly any way it pleases - You could set up the Amiga as a soft synth before soft synths were invented!

So, it is not just a sample playback chip, it's far more sophisticated.

Quote
If you want to recreate that 8 bit sound an old dedicated sampler like an Akai S2000 would do this 'out of the box'


A big part of the Amiga sound is the variable rate sample playback.  It turns out a lot of gear used to do this but only very early on. You'd probably have to go back to something rather older to get an Amiga-like sound like a first generation Emulator or Fairlight.

Alternatively, just buy the right VST.  There is one that nailed the Amiga sound pretty much perfectly.

Quote
Regardless of what others may say - the SID chip is unique.  There weren't any pre-built synths that could sound anything like it;  it was worthy of development into the SidStation.


Indeed, I bought a C64 so I could use SID.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 08, 2013, 10:03:48 PM
Quote from: minator;749613
Paula can do:
Sample playback.
Loop playback - it's an oscillator.
If the 68K changes the waveform it's looping you get wavetable synthesis (think PPG synths).
Modulation of channels with AM and/or FM so:
- FM synthesis.
- AM synthesis.
- FM + AM synthesis.
Non-DMA playback. The processor to produces waveforms on the fly any way it pleases - You could set up the Amiga as a soft synth before soft synths were invented!


A FPGA + D/A or a x86-PC with a bus connected sound card can do the same. The Amiga was great but it can all be done with easier to get hardware now.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 08, 2013, 10:21:50 PM
Yes, but there are little idiosyncracies (variable-rate samples going to independent DACs, which are non-linear, run through an analog filter) that are going to color the sound in a distinctive way. If you want the Amiga sound, the simplest way is just going to be to use an Amiga.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Iggy on October 09, 2013, 12:16:16 AM
Quote from: commodorejohn;749573
Oh pshaw. The SID will blow any generic-ass wavetable GM box completely out of the water for sheer sonic character. Hell, even Yamaha's old FM chips would outshine the generic XG crap they poop out now, if used well. And hey, Paula as well has its own particular character (thanks to the gritty early digital sound tamed by a bit of filtering,) even if it is just a sample-playback affair.

But it's silly to think that it'd be worth the trouble trying to create a dedicated module version; for one thing, as freqmax points out, Paula itself is only DACs and filters, and requires Agnus to actually get its data. For another, you need a system to load samples into memory, interpret incoming MIDI events, assign channels, and apply effects like volume envelopes anyway. At that point, you're already halfway to an Amiga.


Actually, its the FM series I am thinking about building into a 63C09E design I am bread boarding.
And as to character, yeah SID sound is identifiable.
I don't know that that makes it more desirable.
And Midi compatibility (which the SID doesn't have) is nothing to scoff about.

BTW - I can tell you DO know what you are talking about, because I would go with an FM over an XG design myself. 2 to 4 meg wavetable in rom or ram?
Yeah, sometimes the older hardware just had more capability.
Unfortunately, as processor have become more powerful, sound chips have kind off de-evolved.
The AC'97 spec is a joke.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Iggy on October 09, 2013, 12:22:02 AM
Quote from: Linde;749605
What definition of the world "special" do you subscribe to, not to include the SID?


I think that if the qualities of the CPU was the question for any of these people, they would have abandoned their platform a long time ago (along with the M68k series).


didn't mean to piss you  off,.
At the time it was produced the SID was pretty remarkable.
Compared to the 6502 its a work of art.
The 6502 is little more than an attempt to undercut 6800 pricing.
The design holds no attraction for me.

And if we have all stopped use old processor like the 68K, how come I can still use 68K machine code under MorphOS?
And believe me, its being done. New code.
Because its still backward compatible.

We are just a really stubborn bunch.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: nicholas on October 09, 2013, 12:28:59 AM
Didn't Musicline Editor do actual realtime synthesis using Paula?

http://www.musicline.org/software.html
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 09, 2013, 01:02:32 AM
Quote from: Iggy;749620
Actually, its the FM series I am thinking about building into a 63C09E design I am bread boarding.
Ah. Good choice. (I've actually got a spare OPL3 combo chip I'd like to build a portable sequencer around one day...)

Quote
And as to character, yeah SID sound is identifiable.
I don't know that that makes it more desirable.
And Midi compatibility (which the SID doesn't have) is nothing to scoff about.
Well, the SID may not be to your taste, but it certainly is to a lot of people's. It's the closest home computers ever got to a classic subtractive analog synthesizer, even if it's very limited by comparison to those. And it's perfectly possible to add MIDI capability to a C64, or use one of the various SID-based module designs.

(If you mean General MIDI compatibility...feh. No, you're not easily going to get 16 voices of SID sound, but who cares? A lot of classic synthesizers only have one voice. Use it as a lead or a bass or something and employ something else - a Yamaha FM chip, say - for your chords, if you really need a big huge arrangement - interoperability between disparate devices with different strengths in a single setup is the whole point of MIDI to begin with.)

Quote
BTW - I can tell you DO know what you are talking about, because I would go with an FM over an XG design myself. 2 to 4 meg wavetable in rom or ram?
Yeah, sometimes the older hardware just had more capability.
Unfortunately, as processor have become more powerful, sound chips have kind off de-evolved.
The AC'97 spec is a joke.
Oy, tell me about it. It's shocking how the best stuff currently on the market is the stuff that either dedicatedly emulates or simply goes back entirely to the technology of the '70s and '80s. I got my Korg MS-20 Mini (a direct recreation of an old analog monosynth) the week before last and I've spent damn near every free moment since playing with it (even while in the middle of a move!) But I tried the whiz-bang Jupiter-80 (an "advanced" modern digital wavetable/modelling keyboard gussied up like the classic JP8, which it doesn't sound a thing like) at my local music store and got bored of it after three minutes. Somehow things went terribly, terribly wrong when ROMplers became the dominant species of synthesizer...

Quote from: nicholas;749622
Didn't Musicline Editor do actual realtime synthesis using Paula?

http://www.musicline.org/software.html
If that featurelist is accurate, yes. For a 68k-based softsynth, that's  impressive - resonant filters and effects? Hell, a lot of hardware  ROMplers didn't even have that.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Iggy on October 09, 2013, 04:28:27 AM
Yeah John,
When I first thought about building a simple HD63C09E based system I was considering something simpler like the old single channel YM2149 (which is really just yamaha's knock off of the old General Instruments AY-3-8910).
But the FMs can be had at exactly the same price.
Sure I've got to add some circuits, but when you can get an eight bit PIC MCU with four ten bit A to D converters for $1.99 is that really an issue?

I always envied the chips used in later MSX machines and their add ons thanks to all the capabilities that Yamaha squeezed into these devices.

While the SID may hold a special place in the heart of commodore fanatics, i'd take the OPL3 over the SID or Paula any day.

There was a big mistake made by both the Commodore camp and those of us focusing on 68K OS-9.
We were fixated on the hardware instead of making sure that the drivers added enough of an abstraction layer that we could support variations in hardware.

I still dread thinking about those horrible OS-9 based CD-I players and their dreadful Signetics 68070 processor (and the attendant chipset).
They could have standardized around a disc standard, but no Phillips had to specify the entire hardware platform.

That's why when so of you are so insistent that specific hardware makes an Amiga i get dismayed.

If Amiga OS had forced programmers to work via drivers rather than allowing direct hardware banging, the entire platform would have been able to evolve quicker.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 09, 2013, 05:40:42 AM
@Iggy, What's so bad about the AC97 spec? and what makes OPL3 so good?

@commodorejohn, What's wrong with ROMplers?

Btw, I feel that it weren't until the 90's that artists learnt to make good use of synthezisers.

Wonder what the 63C09E (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitachi_6309) is. Seems to be a3 MHz CPU with 8/16/32-bit registers.

Oh and if Amiga OS had forced programmers to work via drivers it would been so slow it hadn't taken of ;)
30 minutes to decode 100 kB jpeg image, sirup-slow interpretation of a C-coded C-code comment parser I coded etc. Guess the chip-ram + low-ram combo did it's part..


Is there anything one can make these days that would make a huge difference?
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 09, 2013, 06:55:37 AM
Quote from: freqmax;749627
What's so bad about the AC97 spec?
It's provided a mediocre standard for computer audio to uniformly adhere to and never bother with striving to improve on or add interesting new facets to. (At least until you get into overpriced pro-audio gear.)

Quote
and what makes OPL3 so good?
It's a versatile synthesizer chip capable of a wide variety of rich, interesting sounds, and has the distinctive Yamaha FM character. You'd never mistake it for anything else.

Quote
What's wrong with ROMplers?
Nothing's inherently wrong with ROMplers, but by the mid-'90s they had, kudzu-like, almost completely overtaken the landscape, from the bottom-end cheap Casio crap to high-end digital pianos and "workstation" keyboards. This is a problem because ROMplers are just plain not in the slightest bit organic; you press a note at a given velocity with a given patch, you get the same damn sound every time. Whereas even the DX7, while just as purely digital, lets you add subtle touches (like the capability for any of the six oscillators to be free-running) that differentiate each note from the next in an analog kind of way. ROMplers have their uses, but as the be-all and end-all of sound synthesis that they've become, it's Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, Baked Beans, Spam, Spam, Spam and Spam. Just way the hell too much Spam.

Quote
Btw, I feel that it weren't until the 90's that artists learnt to make good use of synthezisers.
Allow (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yar10vUjcc&t=7m45s) me (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Q00HQwO2Sg) to (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fFjtxDfrjB0) prove (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpWNimba344) you (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmzDUYR90O8) completely, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NPJ6GMXM3E) utterly (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1oaXqBJRRQ) wrong. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYprIlvoJy4&hd=1&t=5m22s)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 09, 2013, 08:20:31 AM
What demands do you think a sufficient computer audio standard should place?

There might been a minority artists that knew their stuff but perhaps not the music industry at large.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 09, 2013, 08:47:42 AM
The music industry at large has never known its ass from its elbow, man. When Chuck Berry was ripping it up on the crazy new distorted guitar and Little Richard was shrieking like a maniac, the music industry was employing Pat Boone to make that music safe for easily-frightened old white grannies. Nowadays the music industry thinks that you can make a singer by grabbing some skank off the street and running her through auto-tune. "The music industry at large" is the last place you look for actual talent in music.

A sufficient computer audio standard shouldn't be a standard at all, basically. There should be some basic standard capabilities, but manufacturers should be encouraged to color the results in interesting ways, with interesting (optional) effects, and we should bring back MIDI as a default method for music delivery. Back in the day, when each sound card had its own way of rendering MIDI, you could actually get different sounds out of them. If you didn't like the sound of an OPL2 sound card, you could get a GUS, or an IBM Music Feature Card, or hook up to an MT-32 through an external MIDI connection. Each of those would sound very different, and you could pick one that you liked. Now it's all the exact same stuff in MP3 recordings, and where there is MIDI, it's that same wretched Roland soundfont that comes with Windows. Yuck.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: nicholas on October 09, 2013, 09:40:40 AM
Quote from: commodorejohn;749624
If that featurelist is accurate, yes. For a 68k-based softsynth, that's  impressive - resonant filters and effects? Hell, a lot of hardware  ROMplers didn't even have that.

Its modules are supported by the UADE replay engine (For *nix, MorphOS and Haiku) that emulates the 68k CPU + Agnus + Paula to (almost) recreate the authentic sound.  The Droidsound player in the Android Play Store plays them nicely for when I'm on a journey.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: XDelusion on October 09, 2013, 02:00:34 PM
+1 Very true, very true!

Quote from: commodorejohn;749632
The music industry at large has never known its ass from its elbow, man. When Chuck Berry was ripping it up on the crazy new distorted guitar and Little Richard was shrieking like a maniac, the music industry was employing Pat Boone to make that music safe for easily-frightened old white grannies. Nowadays the music industry thinks that you can make a singer by grabbing some skank off the street and running her through auto-tune. "The music industry at large" is the last place you look for actual talent in music.

A sufficient computer audio standard shouldn't be a standard at all, basically. There should be some basic standard capabilities, but manufacturers should be encouraged to color the results in interesting ways, with interesting (optional) effects, and we should bring back MIDI as a default method for music delivery. Back in the day, when each sound card had its own way of rendering MIDI, you could actually get different sounds out of them. If you didn't like the sound of an OPL2 sound card, you could get a GUS, or an IBM Music Feature Card, or hook up to an MT-32 through an external MIDI connection. Each of those would sound very different, and you could pick one that you liked. Now it's all the exact same stuff in MP3 recordings, and where there is MIDI, it's that same wretched Roland soundfont that comes with Windows. Yuck.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Linde on October 09, 2013, 08:09:11 PM
Quote from: Iggy;749621
didn't mean to piss you  off,.

Well, I'm not pissed off, just curiously arguing as usual :)

Quote from: Iggy;749621
At the time it was produced the SID was pretty remarkable.
Compared to the 6502 its a work of art.

I think that it's still remarkable in that there hasn't been a sound chip like it since.

Quote from: Iggy;749621
The 6502 is little more than an attempt to undercut 6800 pricing.
The design holds no attraction for me.

Fair enough, but my point is that to most C64 programmers, the CPU is more or less just a means to an end. The fun stuff is the VIC-II and the SID. The amiga community seems to have been very CPU-centric, in comparison.

Quote from: Iggy;749621
And if we have all stopped use old processor like the 68K, how come I can still use 68K machine code under MorphOS?
And believe me, its being done. New code.
Because its still backward compatible.

I never questioned that, but you have to agree that if performance or particularly interesting designs were the reason people keep using these CPUs, they would have been long forgotten.

Quote from: Iggy;749621
We are just a really stubborn bunch.

Indeed!
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: hairy on October 09, 2013, 11:21:26 PM
Quote from: XDelusion;749563
I've seen people take SID chips and create little synth boxes to be controlled via MIDI. Seems a lot of people are willing to pay a nice amount to have such a thing.

 So I'm wondering, how come nobody seems to be doing this with the Paula chip? Also has the Paula chip been cloned?


Unless you're one of those purists who can tell the value of the 8580 external caps in a blind test, then you could try strapping a Parallax Propeller chip to the serial port of your Amiga :)

Demonstration videos:
http://youtu.be/w_GTOvkdM5Q
http://youtu.be/bawJFT3hSLw

consider that removing the video and SD parts from that demo, the audio generation only takes 1/8 of the processing power of the chip.

So putting aside some 2/8 for serial port and routing, up to 6 SID chips could be emulated with a single $8 chip.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 10, 2013, 02:17:30 AM
Quote from: commodorejohn;749632
The music industry at large has never known its ass from its elbow, man. /../
A sufficient computer audio standard shouldn't be a standard at all, basically. There should be some basic standard capabilities,

Lets put it this way, any music you could access by listening to radio or buying records. There were even special shops for those weird "imported records" for people that wasn't satisfied with the industry marketed and spoon fed stuff. It took until the 90s before they presented synthesizer music that was good. Internet = many ribbons of red tape and capacity measured in kbit/s .. ;)

When I think audio standard, I think more in terms of S/P-dif with at least 96 ksp/s 20-bit. Otoh, via USB one can connect any audio stuff one can think of. But USB is in my opinion half-duplex singled ended over complicated piece-of-crap.

The nice thing is that nowadays it's economically possible to bring one's one hardware to do more or less anything one can imagine. I had some ideas along pick-and-place and analog hardware that would make chips not manufactured possible and avoid the whole ASIC deal.


As for the 6502, it certainly lacks many features and is slow. But it was delivered 7 times cheaper than 6800 and changed the market. Delivered by ûbergeek Peddle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Peddle) and hand drawings ;)
Seems also that both the VIC-II and SID were created with the mantra "everything good that is on the market into our chip", and it succeeded.

Dunnu why Amiga fans are CPU focused. Perhaps it's because the instruction set stays but the peripherals vary?

@hairy, Silicon is cheap these days..
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 10, 2013, 04:48:19 AM
Quote from: freqmax;749688
Lets put it this way, any music you could access by listening to radio or buying records. There were even special shops for those weird "imported records" for people that wasn't satisfied with the industry marketed and spoon fed stuff. It took until the 90s before they presented synthesizer music that was good.

Dude, every single one of those except the Doctor Who theme was off a record that was either on a major label (Relayer and Selling England by the Pound, both by bands that were very popular at the time,) otherwise a significant hit (Oxygène sold 15 million copies and hit #2 in the UK charts, Équinoxe hit #11,) or both (friggin' The Dark Side of the Moon is only the second best-selling album of all time.) These were not obscure little indie records or something.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 10, 2013, 07:01:13 AM
There are still some geographical areas that are retarded .. You seem to have been spared ;)

Oxygène, Équinoxe, etc.. could be found if you asked the broadcasters what did you play at time X on channel Y to even find the artist, and then went around to record shops praying for luck.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 10, 2013, 07:49:55 AM
I'll admit that, being as I was still close to a decade out from being born in 1976, I can't say firsthand, but...seriously? Oxygène was a smash hit. People who aren't even into electronic music (i.e. my dad) knew about it.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: takemehomegrandma on October 10, 2013, 08:50:26 AM
@Iggy

You are talking tech specs and comparing those to others like the discussion would be about computers. It's not, it's about musical instruments. Like it or not, but the SID gives a very unique sound. There are many big musicians/groups that has used a Sidstation in their productions (Madonna, Trent Reznor, Nine Inch Nails, Timbaland, Daft Punk, RedOne, Robyn, David Guetta, Depeche Mode, Psy, No Doubt, Machinae Supremacy, to name *a few*), and it's quite easy to spot when they do. The reason has nothing to do with tech specs compared to other solutions or price of SID chips on e-bay.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: nicholas on October 10, 2013, 01:06:01 PM
Cubase 64 :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDrqBYkco-Y
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 10, 2013, 05:12:49 PM
Quote from: nicholas;749710
Cubase 64 :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDrqBYkco-Y
Amazing :D
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Amiga_Nut on October 11, 2013, 12:24:47 AM
The only thing from the world of SID I want for Amiga and Paula is a dual Paula adaptor board like the SID2SID mod for Commodore 64s.

Amiga's sound hardware was an ingenious design decision at the time (I mean what other 1985 home/small business/artist's computer could recreate ANY sound. Exactly ;)

But as others have said it is pretty much just the most basic implementation of a very basic 8bit DAC so I don't see a market for Paula based stand alone products myself.

As for the 6510 being crap, well the only other mass market alternative was the Z80 and as the 65xx series pretty much executed 200% instructions per mhz compared to the Z80 you get the idea. I agree 1mhz was slow for the C64 CPU but ultimately there was enough DMA and very advanced audio visual custom chip wizardry that it hardly mattered excepted for 3D wireframe/polygon games and let's face ALL of those looked like crap on ALL 8bit computers. IMO even on the Amiga 500 and Atari ST 3D games looked crap, the only exception being Zarch (AKA Virus) on an Archimedes in 256 colours. I wouldn't bother with anything else before that except for probably Stunt Car Racer on Amiga (ST version is noticeably smoother but without all those creaking wooden plank samples the game is a bit boring)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 11, 2013, 12:51:06 AM
SID was an real good synthesizer and perhaps something Amiga missed. And Paula was perhaps just a D/A but it had DMA to add and beat the competition like 286 with single square oscillator...... ;)

Jay Miner knew his stuff and made good design decisions. That Commodore management lacked the insight to build a long feature on this platform is another story.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: magnetic on October 11, 2013, 01:01:39 AM
Cool thread guys, I saw reference to Yamaha stuff so wanted to tell you guys I have one of these boxes "The Amiga Project XG"

Id also like to say that anyone here that is saying they can get the "amiga sound" through emulation on a pc is full of CRAP. They must be tone deaf. Sure you can "prove" it with technical theories and whatever else, but take it from me djng for over 20 years the Amiga Paula HAS A SUPER PHAT SOUND hook it up to a good mixer and speakers and feel the base. Perfect for electronic/hip hop. The low end bass is out of sight.

Quote
CU Amiga Magazine announces 'Project XG'

CU Amiga Magazine continues its proactive assault on bringing the best products and technology to the Amiga market, backing up its reputation as the World's Best Amiga Magazine.

Announcing Project XG, a DIY feature to build an 18-bit 48Khz external sound card based on the Yamaha DB50XG. It will cost under £130 pounds Sterling (GBP); a full parts list, suppliers and detailed instructions on construction will be provided. Even stylish artwork for the box is included!

Project XG will offer extremely high quality audio with real time DSP effects on any or all of the 32 instruments it can play at the same time. Project XG is a MIDI module with some 676 ultra high quality instruments and some 21 drum kits built in. The DSPs manage 11 types of Reverve, 11 types of Chorus and 42 types of Variation. The lack of being able to play custom samples is solved by mixing the Amiga's audio into that of the Yamaha's.

Whether full MIDI sequencing or straightforward playback of General MIDI and XG MIDI files is desired, Project X will cope better and sound better than any PC sound card in common use. To say the least.

Naturally the corresponding cover CD-ROM will be loaded to the brim with General MIDI and XG MIDI songs, MIDI sequencers and a wealth of other support software. It will also contain audio tracks to demonstrate the quality of the output compared to Amiga output. (A/B comparisons) CU Online will soon also host some MPEG Audio Layer III files.

CU Amiga Magazine hopes to aid the establishment of XG MIDI in Amiga software such as music applications, games and such forth. Initially with this economical DIY project and then following commercial efforts; Project XG is a campaign to bring this high quality audio standard to the Amiga. Project XG will put the Amiga back on the music map!

References: Yamaha's XG home page http://www.yamaha.co.uk
            Christian Bauer's GMPlay General MIDI and XG Player.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Amiga_Nut on October 11, 2013, 01:04:04 AM
Amiga can do pretty nice sounding SID renditions (Per Hakan Sundell's C64 Demo for Amiga OCS and his SIDPlay app sound excellent...he also wrote C64S DOS emulator).

The problem with having a traditional soundchip is they have a distinct sound. The SID suffers a lot less from this than the Yamaha AY/YM Amstrad/Atari ST chips but designing tunes for games on Amiga you forget how spoilt you are when you then have to do the C64 version as well. All AY/YM tunes from the Amstrad/ST are instantly recognisable (as are the TI chips in Coleco/MSX machines too) but there are a lot of instances where the SID is not recognisable (compare the soundtrack to Rambo for example with the soundtrack to Sanxion's loading music to the electric guitar solo in the game Wizball. You can guess the author but the layman in the street would not know they are on the same computer).

Having said that SID is a genuine analogue synth on a chip and that is the key to why it is such an awesome piece of kit to design things for. If you look how much 1980 mono synths with similar technology cost you will not call a $20 6581 chip over priced ever again IMO :)

Biggest problem with SIDs IMO are that no two even from the same revision sound exactly the same ie two 6581 revision 3 chips may sound different even in the same machine...a subtle difference but with games that use complex filtering effects it can be noticeably different.

Any way if you really want to see what all the fuss is about you need to get a silver label original 1982 C64 with ceramic VIC-II chip and take it from there, later models of the C64 produce a much less basey sound which makes SFX in games sound a bit weedy lol

Avoid the white 64C with the 8580, totally useless machine unless all you want to do is run Cynthcart/Prophet 64 for basic music work.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: magnetic on October 11, 2013, 01:05:39 AM
Im gonna say it again and this applies to SID as well. YOU CANNOT GET THE SAME SOUND OF THESE OLD SKOOL CHIPS WITH EMULATION. PERIOD END OF STORY. There are many factors to this.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 11, 2013, 01:12:48 AM
That means there's more than plain D/A and standard analog filter. So could anyone describe what's special in technical terms?

(oh and what technically made C64 ceramic SID special would be interesting too)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: magnetic on October 11, 2013, 01:16:56 AM
freqmax
thats just my point you arent go to justify it in "technical terms" its the Sound. Unique for both SID, and Paula. This is why musicians still use these things..
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Amiga_Nut on October 11, 2013, 01:18:44 AM
Quote from: magnetic;749761
Cool thread guys, I saw reference to Yamaha stuff so wanted to tell you guys I have one of these boxes "The Amiga Project XG"

Id also like to say that anyone here that is saying they can get the "amiga sound" through emulation on a pc is full of CRAP. They must be tone deaf. Sure you can "prove" it with technical theories and whatever else, but take it from me djng for over 20 years the Amiga Paula HAS A SUPER PHAT SOUND hook it up to a good mixer and speakers and feel the base. Perfect for electronic/hip hop. The low end bass is out of sight.


Not the same sound, BETTER sound using any old Win XP laptop costing $50 and a copy XMPlay. The only unusual thing about my setup is it's sitting in my home cinema and the music is sent digitally to the amp so it is the purest possible sound of what the MOD is supposed to sound like before the cheap ass components on the A500 motherboard destroy the quality even more.

People who think a real Amiga playing a MOD sounds as good as XMPlay on a PC are tone deaf (usually in the tones from about 8khz to 20khz deaf actually lol). Signal to noise ratio on a real Amiga is terrible, total harmonic distortion is about the same as a 1978 Alba/Binatone clock radio and the hard separation of channels 1,3 and 2,4 with no possibility for even 1% cross fading all go to making MODs sound worse on a real Amiga....and that's before you even talk about pre-amp tweaks to the frequency spectrum and smoothing of 8bit samples to pseudo 16bit samples (which is actually what the Ensoniq 8bit sample keyboards of the late 80s did...and as they were all designed by Bob Yannes the designer of the SID and the IIGS awesome synth chips you can bet your ass there is a good reason for this upscaling of 8bit samples).

A simple test is either the Level 1 music for Super Stardust or the intro on It Came from the Desert, play it on a real Amiga linked to the line input on the same amp and again on any old Win XP PC playing the same MODs attached to the same amp via a coax/TOSlink cable to the digital input line.

Emulation of the computer as a whole will never come close to the frame accurate code running on Daphne/Agnus I agree but MOD playback is something PCs were doing better since the start of the century with standalone players so Paula IS technically nothing special at all, only the creative talents of the people who used it well and the genius decision by Jay/RJ/Dave to stick a 4 channel DAC on the motherboard of Lorraine :)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: magnetic on October 11, 2013, 01:24:02 AM
amiganut

I highly doubt that setup you describe is "better" than the original. The gritty dirty low end paula sound is the point not some bs pc hi res setup lmao Dont you understand the "low quality" amiga sound chips is what gives it the "sound" ?

i'm not talking about playing games, i'm talking about making music
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: nicholas on October 11, 2013, 02:22:09 AM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;749770
Not the same sound, BETTER sound using any old Win XP laptop costing $50 and a copy XMPlay. The only unusual thing about my setup is it's sitting in my home cinema and the music is sent digitally to the amp so it is the purest possible sound of what the MOD is supposed to sound like before the cheap ass components on the A500 motherboard destroy the quality even more.

People who think a real Amiga playing a MOD sounds as good as XMPlay on a PC are tone deaf (usually in the tones from about 8khz to 20khz deaf actually lol). Signal to noise ratio on a real Amiga is terrible, total harmonic distortion is about the same as a 1978 Alba/Binatone clock radio and the hard separation of channels 1,3 and 2,4 with no possibility for even 1% cross fading all go to making MODs sound worse on a real Amiga....and that's before you even talk about pre-amp tweaks to the frequency spectrum and smoothing of 8bit samples to pseudo 16bit samples (which is actually what the Ensoniq 8bit sample keyboards of the late 80s did...and as they were all designed by Bob Yannes the designer of the SID and the IIGS awesome synth chips you can bet your ass there is a good reason for this upscaling of 8bit samples).

A simple test is either the Level 1 music for Super Stardust or the intro on It Came from the Desert, play it on a real Amiga linked to the line input on the same amp and again on any old Win XP PC playing the same MODs attached to the same amp via a coax/TOSlink cable to the digital input line.

Emulation of the computer as a whole will never come close to the frame accurate code running on Daphne/Agnus I agree but MOD playback is something PCs were doing better since the start of the century with standalone players so Paula IS technically nothing special at all, only the creative talents of the people who used it well and the genius decision by Jay/RJ/Dave to stick a 4 channel DAC on the motherboard of Lorraine :)

Play the Super Stardust Level 1 module with XMPlay then play it again with UADE and compare the difference. :)

Then play it on an A500 and hear the dirt that makes it all the more delightful. ;)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 11, 2013, 02:35:52 AM
@Amiga_Nut, What did the ES5503 chip cost in 1986?

I think @magnetic is on the spot. It's the distortion that makes the music. It's not a bug, it's a feature.. as they say. It reminds of the VICE emulator for C64 implementing analog PAL distortion to make the colours look alright.

So the question becomes. What is the technical quantification of the distortion?

Perhaps someone could feed a digital test stream from a PC into the Amiga-Paula chip and sample the output with a precision A/D to measure the distortion.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 11, 2013, 03:10:11 AM
Quote from: magnetic;749761
Cool thread guys, I saw reference to Yamaha stuff so wanted to tell you guys I have one of these boxes "The Amiga Project XG"
Eh. Unfortunately, by the time Yamaha developed their XG standard, they'd gone entirely into ROMpler territory, playing the same sets of samples from ROM (downsampled to lower rates on the cheaper instruments) on basically everything, sacrificing pretty much any potential for sound creation in the name of "realism." Bleah. Their FM synths (or even their ROMpler/FM hybrid synths like the SY77) were much more interesting.

Quote from: Amiga_Nut;749763
Amiga can do pretty nice sounding SID renditions  (Per Hakan Sundell's C64 Demo for Amiga OCS and his SIDPlay app sound  excellent...he also wrote C64S DOS emulator).
The renditions I've heard on the Amiga are nice in the sense that  they sound good, but they're only kind of reminiscent of the SID, and  nothing you'd ever mistake for the real deal. Then again, I haven't kept  up on the Amiga side of SID emulation for a while...

Quote
The problem with having a traditional soundchip is they have a distinct sound.
Whether that's a problem or not largely depends on what you want out of  an audio device. If you want flawless reproduction of a pre-defined  sound, then yeah, you're not going to want a synthesizer chip - what  you'd want is the highest-quality DAC/aliasing filter combo you can get  and enough memory to store a good recording of the sound. But for those  of us who want an instrument, that's a silly complaint to make.  You wouldn't gripe if you bought an acoustic piano and found that it was  incapable of sounding like a Hammond organ; that would be silly. The AY  chips didn't suck because they had a distinct character, they sucked  because they were capable of exactly two kinds of sound (square waves  and noise,) and there's just only so much you can do with that.  Whereas the SID is much more capable, but still distinctive and full of  character.

Quote
Having said that SID is a genuine analogue synth on a chip and  that is the key to why it is such an awesome piece of kit to design  things for. If you look how much 1980 mono synths with similar  technology cost you will not call a $20 6581 chip over priced ever again  IMO :)
Well, I wouldn't stack the SID up against higher-priced monosynths - it  doesn't get quite the full organic, analog feel because its oscillators  are digital, the ring mod and oscillator sync are rather lackluster, and  the filter resonance doesn't even get close to self-oscillation.  (Though it has its own advantages - there's surprisingly few synths that  can do PWM with a center point other than pure square, or provide anything like  the noise + pulse combo waveform. It'd certainly be a lot closer contest  against single-oscillator budget monosynths like the SH-101, where it  could compete on sound and deliver polyphony.) But yeah, it is  pretty dang incredible how much Bob Yannes delivered in one little chip  for a low-cost home computer :)

Quote
Biggest problem with SIDs IMO are that no two even from the same  revision sound exactly the same ie two 6581 revision 3 chips may sound  different even in the same machine...a subtle difference but with games  that use complex filtering effects it can be noticeably  different.
Au contraire, that's part of the beauty of analog gear ;)

Quote from: Amiga_Nut;749770
Not the same sound, BETTER sound using any old  Win XP laptop costing $50 and a copy XMPlay. The only unusual thing  about my setup is it's sitting in my home cinema and the music is sent  digitally to the amp so it is the purest possible sound of what the MOD  is supposed to sound like before the cheap ass components on the A500  motherboard destroy the quality even more.
All depends on what you define as "better." A lot of us like that sound, however much it might make audio snobs shudder.

Quote from: freqmax;749766
That means there's more than plain D/A and  standard analog filter. So could anyone describe what's special in  technical terms?
"More than" a DAC and filter, no. But again, even a system with just a DAC and filter can have its own distinct character, because those components color the sound in their own ways. No electronic component, especially no analogue electronic component, is actually a mathematically ideal implementation of its nominal function. As has been noted, the Amiga's DACs aren't even close to linear - that's going to distort the output. Also, samples are fed in at varying rates and played back without interpolation, which means that any aliasing noise is going to come out at a different frequency, likely well within the range of human hearing, which is also going to color the sound.

And finally, there is not a single analog filter in existence that has a mathematically ideal, linear frequency roll-off. (Which virtually every emulator in existence gets wrong; even reSID was wrongly doing linear roll-off until very recently.) Even the cleaner filters have a curved roll-off, and a lot of them will have different ranges roll off at different curves. Additionally, real-world filters don't just attenuate frequency components, they change their phase relationships. All of this varies wildly from filter to filter, with the result that just about every design is at least subtly different. (A good place to go for further reading on this subject would be installments 4 (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/aug99/articles/synthsecrets.htm) and 5 (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep99/articles/synthsecrets.htm) of Gordon Reid's excellent Synth Secrets (http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/allsynthsecrets.htm) series for Sound on Sound. The man knows his stuff.)

So, really, even with a very simple DAC + filter system, there's any number of factors that can give a distinct character to the sound. It's probably not impossible to emulate them properly, but I don't know of an emulator that does. Many get things basically right, but I'm not surprised that folks like magnetic feel that only the real deal provides the same sound. It's complex.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 11, 2013, 03:53:45 AM
Alright so we have:
 * Aliasiing artifacts (high frequency and ringing?)
 * Non-linear frequency cut off
 * Different phase displacement per frequency

I guess one has to settle for a good enough simulation.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 11, 2013, 03:59:39 AM
Or use the real thing ;P
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 11, 2013, 04:12:58 AM
As long as there exist a real thing to begin with..

Designs usually survives the hardware ;)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Linde on October 11, 2013, 08:10:47 AM
Quote from: freqmax;749766
That means there's more than plain D/A and standard analog filter. So could anyone describe what's special in technical terms?

(oh and what technically made C64 ceramic SID special would be interesting too)


From http://sid.kubarth.com/articles/interview_bob_yannes.html:

Quote from: BOB YANNES
It's pretty brute-force, I didn't have time to be elegant. Each "voice" consisted of an Oscillator, a Waveform Generator, a Waveform Selector, a Waveform D/A converter, a Multiplying D/A converter for amplitude control and an Envelope Generator for modulation. The analog output of each voice could be sent through a Multimode Analog Filter or bypass the filter and a final Multiplying D/A converter provided overall manual volume control.

As I recall, the Oscillator is a 24-bit phase-accumulating design of which the lower 16-bits are programmable for pitch control. The output of the accumulator goes directly to a D/A converter through a waveform selector. Normally, the output of a phase-accumulating oscillator would be used as an address into memory which contained a wavetable, but SID had to be entirely self-contained and there was no room at all for a wavetable on the chip.

The Sawtooth waveform was created by sending the upper 12-bits of the accumulator to the 12-bit Waveform D/A.

The Triangle waveform was created by using the MSB of the accumulator to invert the remaining upper 11 accumulator bits using EXOR gates. These 11 bits were then left-shifted (throwing away the MSB) and sent to the Waveform D/A (so the resolution of the triangle waveform was half that of the sawtooth, but the amplitude and frequency were the same).

The Pulse waveform was created by sending the upper 12-bits of the accumulator to a 12-bit digital comparator. The output of the comparator was either a one or a zero. This single output was then sent to all 12 bits of the Waveform D/A.

The Noise waveform was created using a 23-bit pseudo-random sequence generator (i.e., a shift register with specific outputs fed back to the input through combinatorial logic).The shift register was clocked by one of the intermediate bits of the accumulator to keep the frequency content of the noise waveform relatively the same as the pitched waveforms. The upper 12-bits of the shift register were sent to the Waveform D/A.

Since all of the waveforms were just digital bits, the Waveform Selector consisted of multiplexers that selected which waveform bits would be sent to the Waveform D/A. The multiplexers were single transistors and did not provide a "lock-out", allowing combinations of the waveforms to be selected. The combination was actually a logical ANDing of the bits of each waveform, which produced unpredictable results, so I didn't encourage this, especially since it could lock up the pseudo-random sequence generator by filling it with zeroes.

The output of the Waveform D/A (which was an analog voltage at this point) was fed into the reference input of an 8-bit multiplying D/A, creating a DCA (digitally-controlled-amplifier). The digital control word which modulated the amplitude of the waveform came from the Envelope Generator.

The Envelope Generator was simply an 8-bit up/down counter which, when triggered by the Gate bit, counted from 0 to 255 at the Attack rate, from 255 down to the programmed Sustain value at the Decay rate, remained at the Sustain value until the Gate bit was cleared then counted down from the Sustain value to 0 at the Release rate.

A programmable frequency divider was used to set the various rates (unfortunately I don't remember how many bits the divider was, either 12 or 16 bits). A small look-up table translated the 16 register-programmable values to the appropriate number to load into the frequency divider. Depending on what state the Envelope Generator was in (i.e. ADS or R), the appropriate register would be selected and that number would be translated and loaded into the divider. Obviously it would have been better to have individual bit control of the divider which would have provided great resolution for each rate, however I did not have enough silicon area for a lot of register bits. Using this approach, I was able to cram a wide range of rates into 4 bits, allowing the ADSR to be defined in two bytes instead of eight. The actual numbers in the look-up table were arrived at subjectively by setting up typical patches on a Sequential Circuits Pro-1 and measuring the envelope times by ear (which is why the available rates seem strange)!

In order to more closely model the exponential decay of sounds, another look-up table on the output of the Envelope Generator would sequentially divide the clock to the Envelope Generator by two at specific counts in the Decay and Release cycles. This created a piece-wise linear approximation of an exponential. I was particularly happy how well this worked considering the simplicity of the circuitry. The Attack, however, was linear, but this sounded fine.

A digital comparator was used for the Sustain function. The upper four bits of the Up/Down counter were compared to the programmed Sustain value and would stop the clock to the Envelope Generator when the counter counted down to the Sustain value. This created 16 linearly spaced sustain levels without having to go through a look-up table translation between the 4-bit register value and the 8-bit Envelope Generator output. It also meant that sustain levels were adjustable in steps of 16. Again, more register bits would have provided higher resolution.

When the Gate bit was cleared, the clock would again be enabled, allowing the counter to count down to zero. Like an analog envelope generator, the SID Envelope Generator would track the Sustain level if it was changed to a lower value during the Sustain portion of the envelope, however, it would not count UP if the Sustain level were set higher.

The 8-bit output of the Envelope Generator was then sent to the Multiplying D/A converter to modulate the amplitude of the selected Oscillator Waveform (to be technically accurate, actually the waveform was modulating the output of the Envelope Generator, but the result is the same).

Hard Sync was accomplished by clearing the accumulator of an Oscillator based on the accumulator MSB of the previous oscillator.

Ring Modulation was accomplished by substituting the accumulator MSB of an oscillator in the EXOR function of the triangle waveform generator with the accumulator MSB of the previous oscillator. That is why the triangle waveform must be selected to use Ring Modulation.

The Filter was a classic multi-mode (state variable) VCF design. There was no way to create a variable transconductance amplifier in our NMOS process, so I simply used FETs as voltage-controlled resistors to control the cutoff frequency. An 11-bit D/A converter generates the control voltage for the FETs (it's actually a 12-bit D/A, but the LSB had no audible affect so I disconnected it!).

Filter resonance was controlled by a 4-bit weighted resistor ladder. Each bit would turn on one of the weighted resistors and allow a portion of the output to feed back to the input. The state-variable design provided simultaneous low-pass, band-pass and high-pass outputs. Analog switches selected which combination of outputs were sent to the final amplifier (a notch filter was created by enabling both the high and low-pass outputs simultaneously).

The filter is the worst part of SID because I could not create high-gain op-amps in NMOS, which were essential to a resonant filter. In addition, the resistance of the FETs varied considerably with processing, so different lots of SID chips had different cutoff frequency characteristics. I knew it wouldn't work very well, but it was better than nothing and I didn't have time to make it better.

Analog switches were also used to either route an Oscillator output through or around the filter to the final amplifier. The final amp was a 4-bit multiplying D/A converter which allowed the volume of the output signal to be controlled. By stopping an Oscillator, it was possible to apply a DC voltage to this D/A. Audio could then be created by having the microprocessor write the Final Volume register in real-time. Game programs often used this method to synthesize speech or play "sampled" sounds. An external audio input could also be mixed in at the final amp or processed through the filter.

The Modulation registers were probably never used since they could easily be simulated in software without having to give up a voice. For novice programmers they provided a way to create vibrato or filter sweeps without having to write much code (just read the value from the modulation register and write it back to the frequency register). These registers just give microprocessor access to the upper 8 bits of the instantaneous value of the waveform and envelope of Voice 3. Since you probably wouldn't want to hear the modulation source in the audio output, an analog switch was provided to turn off the audio output of Voice 3.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Iggy on October 11, 2013, 12:38:58 PM
Quote from: Linde;749656
Fair enough, but my point is that to most C64 programmers, the CPU is more or less just a means to an end. The fun stuff is the VIC-II and the SID. The Amiga community seems to have been very CPU-centric, in comparison.

Well, the 68K was a pretty cool processor during a period when X86s were dreadful, and I've gotten a big kick out of the 6809 and the superset in the Hitachi 6309, but I must admit that with its video and sound capability the C64 would have been successful with just about any processor.

It was probably the only machine of its time that you could write good video games with using BASIC.

And while I've mentioned some MSX sound chips, I didn't really care for the Z-80 either.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 11, 2013, 03:44:27 PM
I like the Z80 for having an astonishingly large register complement for an 8-bitter, but it just chews up so many cycles per instruction...

Wish the 8086 had evolved from it instead of the 8080, that's for sure.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Linde on October 11, 2013, 05:10:45 PM
Quote from: Iggy;749818
Well, the 68K was a pretty cool processor during a period when X86s were dreadful, and I've gotten a big kick out of the 6809 and the superset in the Hitachi 6309, but I must admit that with its video and sound capability the C64 would have been successful with just about any processor.


A Hitachi 6309 would have been awesome!
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Linde on October 11, 2013, 05:15:26 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;749780
Eh. Unfortunately, by the time Yamaha developed their XG standard, they'd gone entirely into ROMpler territory, playing the same sets of samples from ROM (downsampled to lower rates on the cheaper instruments) on basically everything, sacrificing pretty much any potential for sound creation in the name of "realism." Bleah. Their FM synths (or even their ROMpler/FM hybrid synths like the SY77) were much more interesting.

Again, just to nitpick, this is not entirely true, as there are XG implementations based on OPL3 (look at YMF719). XG is no more of a particular sound than General MIDI is, and implementations vary, although I recognize that most were boring romplers.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 11, 2013, 06:01:48 PM
Quote from: Linde;749836
Again, just to nitpick, this is not entirely true, as there are XG implementations based on OPL3 (look at YMF719). XG is no more of a particular sound than General MIDI is, and implementations vary, although I recognize that most were boring romplers.
Not really. The YMF719 is a sound-card-in-a-chip combo deal; it only includes the OPL3 for legacy purposes. For its "XG" implementation it's actually got wavetable synthesis capabilities (though I don't know that every YMF719-based sound card used them, since it required external sample memory, and that would've cost money.) By the time the XG standard came around, all of Yamaha's synthesizers were "AWM" (their name for PCM.)

XG isn't an exact particular sound set, yes, but in practice it's even more narrowly confined to certain sounds than GM, which at least sees variation from manufacturer to manufacturer. About the only variation in XG instruments is in overall sound quality (rather than significant differences in actual sound design,) plus a few sounds unique to particular models that they throw in for variety.

(And frankly, GM was really the start of the problem to begin with - while I understand the motives behind it, it turned out to be a disastrous move from MIDI-as-instrument-control to MIDI-as-sound-reproduction, which was never what it was intended to be in the first place.)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 11, 2013, 07:08:56 PM
And again, for the record: I don't think all ROMplers are boring crap, or that there's anything inherently wrong with the concept. Some of them I quite like; I just got the keyboard version of my E-mu Proteus/1, and I'm on the lookout for a good deal on a Korg X5D to replace the 05/RW I had to sell a while back. But they live or die by the sounds the manufacturer puts in 'em, and more often than not (especially in the age of GM, GS, and XG) that's a collection of maybe technically-quality but character-free samples covering a set of generic bases, and there's rarely much you can do to make that very interesting aside from experimenting with whether or not they sound less bland when layered together. And with the way they've completely dominated the synth landscape for the last 19-20 years, it's been extremely disheartening to realize that the vast majority of the good synths are about as old as I am, or older. (Though we've finally started to see an analog revival gathering steam in the last decade, thank God.)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 11, 2013, 09:24:23 PM
Build your own synth(tm) ? ;)

(and run circles around the commercial ones..)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 11, 2013, 09:27:17 PM
I want to, but I've got a lot of brushing up on low-level electronics to do before I'm ready to try my hand at that ;)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Iggy on October 13, 2013, 01:38:06 PM
Quote from: Linde;749835
A Hitachi 6309 would have been awesome!

They are still around.
There is even a PLCC 44 pin square version.
The 3 Mhz version can be clocked anywhere between 3.58 to 5 Mhz.

And there are 20MHz versions of the Z-80 and 8MHz (or higher) 6502 and 6502 derivatives.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: nicholas on October 13, 2013, 01:43:04 PM
Quote from: Iggy;749983
They are still around.
There is even a PLCC 44 pin square version.
The 3 Mhz version can be clocked anywhere between 3.58 to 5 Mhz.

And there are 20MHz versions of the Z-80 and 8MHz (or higher) 6502 and 6502 derivatives.

The eZ80 is very fast and the 32bit Z380 looks rather nice too. Shame it was only ever used in washing machines.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 13, 2013, 01:47:10 PM
Usually it's a lot of propietary mess for such applications..

Otoh, one could remove the MCU and wire the I/O pads to the Amiga for that cool gadget function. Different .mod music depending on the washing phase ;)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Iggy on October 13, 2013, 02:25:31 PM
Quote from: nicholas;749985
The eZ80 is very fast and the 32bit Z380 looks rather nice too. Shame it was only ever used in washing machines.

Z-380, huh?
Never saw that one before.
Neat.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Linde on October 13, 2013, 03:14:15 PM
I've worked with the eZ80 professionally, and I say avoid it like the plague if you're planning to use the compiler toolchain.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: nicholas on October 13, 2013, 03:24:58 PM
Quote from: Linde;750000
I've worked with the eZ80 professionally, and I say avoid it like the plague if you're planning to use the compiler toolchain.


A C compiler or do you mean a cross assembler? I can't imagine compiled C code would be much fun running on such a weak CPU.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Iggy on October 13, 2013, 03:33:06 PM
http://hackaday.com/2012/10/18/creating-a-midi-synth-from-a-commodore-sid/

The address says it all.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: bbond007 on October 13, 2013, 05:01:08 PM
I had bought one of these things:

CMS / Game Blaster.

Perhaps the worst sound card ever.... man did SID really blow that thing away...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlPJcWf1DeA

fortunately I returned it and got Adlib :)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 13, 2013, 05:24:17 PM
How was the soundchip "Philips SAA1099" btw?
(speaking of OPL..)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: bbond007 on October 13, 2013, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: freqmax;750020
How was the soundchip "Philips SAA1099" btw?
(speaking of OPL..)

it was not OPL but early competition for it(Adlib).

Anyway, it was horrible and really sounded like just more PC speakers separated into right and left channels. Stereo sound was the only real advantage it had over the Adib(OPL).

Creative knew the chip was truly horrible which is why they probably transitioned to OPL.

What you see in the video is a hybrid sound blaster with game blaster backwards compatibility.  I had the actual game blaster which only had the Philips SAA1099 and no additional digital or analog sound sound channels.

haha, from wikipedia : "The chip could produce several different waveforms by locking the volume envelope generator to the frequency generator, and also had a noise generator with 3 pre-set frequencies which could also be locked to the frequency generator for greater range. Its outstanding feature was that it could output in fully independent stereo."
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 13, 2013, 05:54:28 PM
AdLib missed the PCM.
Soundblaster missed the syntheziser quality, but got a second chance due PCM.

Funny thing is that the Canadian state bought AdLib to prevent Creative/SB to do it. That's little unusual.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: nicholas on October 13, 2013, 05:56:48 PM
Quote from: bbond007;750017
I had bought one of these things:

CMS / Game Blaster.

Perhaps the worst sound card ever.... man did SID really blow that thing away...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlPJcWf1DeA

fortunately I returned it and got Adlib :)

Oh I had suppressed the evil ear bleeding memories of that abomination!

When I got a GUS to replace mine I was in comparative heaven. :)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: nicholas on October 13, 2013, 06:14:01 PM
Speaking of Adlib and YM there are some cracking tunes to download here:

http://chiptune.de
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: bbond007 on October 13, 2013, 06:20:43 PM
Back then I had an A500 and was getting into PCs and had a lot of the early sound cards.

To me the real thing about Amiga Paula sound is that it sounded crisp (for 8 bit sound), not like you are talking to someone on the phone long distance like the Creative Sandblaster 1.0. It offered multiple sound channels in stereo, low CPU overhead... It was hard to beat, for a long time, but there is nothing really that much distinctive about it. Its more down to the sound samples and talent of the people that wrote the software and composed the tunes...

I would not be able to tell the difference between my Minimig 1.1 and my A1200 as far as sound, so if I really wanted a Paula Midi synth, using the real chip(like SidStation) would be foolish.

I'd simply do a new PCB based on Mimimig with a built-in midi port. Perhaps you could do it as an expansion to Chameleon 64, although I know less about that device.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: bbond007 on October 13, 2013, 06:33:18 PM
Quote from: nicholas;750026
Oh I had suppressed the evil ear bleeding memories of that abomination!

When I got a GUS to replace mine I was in comparative heaven. :)


I had GUS too.

It was one of those products you just wanted to keep trying to convince yourself how awesome it was because of the raw capabilities and specs and demos, yet the TSR that have it SB/Adlib compatibility was a huge disappointment at a time were native support was extremely lacking.

I ended up selling that card and got the SoundScape 2000. Much better backwards compatibility and even GM :) Also it featured a 68000 CPU which we all know spec-wise, make it totally bada$$ :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoniq_Soundscape_S-2000
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: nicholas on October 13, 2013, 06:53:19 PM
Quote from: bbond007;750033
I had GUS too.

It was one of those products you just wanted to keep trying to convince yourself how awesome it was because of the raw capabilities and specs and demos, yet the TSR that have it SB/Adlib compatibility was a huge disappointment at a time were native support was extremely lacking.

I ended up selling that card and got the SoundScape 2000. Much better backwards compatibility and even GM :) Also it featured a 68000 CPU which we all know spec-wise, make it totally bada$$ :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ensoniq_Soundscape_S-2000

Phwoar that looks like a lovely piece of kit indeed. I must scour eBay immediately! :)

I loved my first revision GUS so much. It was hardly supported in games but that didn't bother me really as it was a joy to code for and all the best demos were written for it.

Many years later I bought a GUS PnP which was a major disappointment.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: XDelusion on October 22, 2013, 09:16:24 PM
Two other audio chips of interest that I'd love to see in a midi box would be the POKEY, and perhaps the one in the Sega Genesis.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 22, 2013, 09:33:24 PM
The Sega Genesis uses one of Yamaha's many four-operator FM chips, so there are actually a number of MIDI modules/keyboards that are essentially the same. The Yamaha FB-01 in particular is pretty much identical in terms of capabilities (minus the ability to play samples and the PSG carried over from the Master System,) with a couple more channels to boot.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: XDelusion on October 22, 2013, 09:44:13 PM
Quote from: commodorejohn;750830
The Sega Genesis uses one of Yamaha's many four-operator FM chips, so there are actually a number of MIDI modules/keyboards that are essentially the same. The Yamaha FB-01 in particular is pretty much identical in terms of capabilities (minus the ability to play samples and the PSG carried over from the Master System,) with a couple more channels to boot.

Awesome, and they are cheap too!
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: commodorejohn on October 22, 2013, 09:53:45 PM
Quite. It was basically a competitor to the MT-32 back in the day (and also formed the guts of the IBM Music Feature Card.)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: freqmax on October 22, 2013, 10:45:20 PM
I see two options:
 * A card with a PCB-2-PCB connection such that small chip specific PCB:s can be made and inserted into a generic MIDI-PCB. Chip types and channels can be added as desired.
 * Big MIDI circuit that features sockets for different synthesizer chips. If you need different or more channels than the designer thought of - bad luck.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Karlos on October 22, 2013, 10:48:04 PM
Quote from: nicholas;749622
Didn't Musicline Editor do actual realtime synthesis using Paula?

http://www.musicline.org/software.html


Nah, that's software synthesis, made all the more impressive by being able to run well on a basic A1200. IIRC it uses looped wave segments (always powers of 2) as a starting point, much like a chip tune does, though samples are also supported. Instruments are defined using sets of these waveforms that are blended in a variety of real-time controllable ways. On top of that there are software effects such as phasing, low pass resonant filters and so forth. It even has an OctaMED-style 8 channel mode, but you need a bit more horsepower than a stock A1200 can provide to get the best out of it.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Karlos on October 22, 2013, 10:52:45 PM
Quote from: nicholas;749597
I know Karlos uses an A1200 controlled by MIDI for sample playback if that counts.  Basically an AKAI sampler clone.


Yeah. It's a MIDI triggered sampler I found years ago on AmiNET called "MidiIn". On a reasonably accelerated system it is capable of some serious polyphony too.

http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=3232
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: nicholas on October 22, 2013, 11:17:19 PM
Quote from: Karlos;750851
Nah, that's software synthesis, made all the more impressive by being able to run well on a basic A1200. IIRC it uses looped wave segments (always powers of 2) as a starting point, much like a chip tune does, though samples are also supported. Instruments are defined using sets of these waveforms that are blended in a variety of real-time controllable ways. On top of that there are software effects such as phasing, low pass resonant filters and so forth. It even has an OctaMED-style 8 channel mode, but you need a bit more horsepower than a stock A1200 can provide to get the best out of it.

Interesting indeed. VST 10yrs before Steinberg. :)
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: Karlos on October 23, 2013, 09:56:07 AM
Quote from: nicholas;750855
Interesting indeed. VST 10yrs before Steinberg. :)


Not sure I'd go that far but it definitely has a sound all of it's own. Not a million miles from the SID, really.
Title: Re: PAULA MIDI SYNTH BOX Like SID BOX?
Post by: skolman on October 23, 2013, 07:27:15 PM
Quote from: Thorham;749593


Well, I'm not using AHI (don't have it installed), and play CD audio back with Hippo player. The only non-standard thing here is the playback rate of 44Khz (using a 31Khz screen mode). It's still Paula playing a few samples with DMA however (and Paula can go much faster than DMA), so I'm still not convinced ;)


Are you sure you native 14-bit calibrated on Paula plays sound with DMA?

BTW. I use the native 14-bit Paula use SongPlayer 1.53 click here (http://skolman-mws.w.interia.pl/amiga/adp4/)