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Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: haywirepc on August 19, 2013, 11:00:42 PM

Title: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: haywirepc on August 19, 2013, 11:00:42 PM
(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3351558924416&set=a.1059239377860.7710.1732190272&type=1&theater)

Thanks to an old friend, I found another old friend again... a breadbox c64.

I even got the xecable with this,to use a windows98 or dos pc as a hard drive...

Took awhile to get it working with c64hdd, and one big problem still remains...

I am using windows98, which does not support long file names. Almost all c64 disk images use long file names, so while its half working... (I have to load disk images in vice to see what the prg file names are, before loading on the c64 side) I would like to get windows 98 supporting long file names so I don't have to keep switching back and forth trying to load stuff...

Anyone know how to get windows 98 or dos to support long file names? I use the windows 98 computer for other things (fasttracker II and dos games) so I'd rather not just install freedos,(which does support long file names) but I suppose I will if I have to.

Renaming the disc images to shorter file names does not work, because the files contained within the disc image still has long file names often... so they generally just do not display when you LIST on the c64...

I'm half way to c64 heaven. The sounds of sid fill my studio... Once again!

:laugh1:

Just gotta figure this out so I can stop driving myself crazy switching back and forth between vice and the real c64...
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: commodorejohn on August 19, 2013, 11:08:51 PM
Badass :D

98 should support long filenames from the get-go...do they work elsewhere on the PC? It might be something to do with the cable software.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: paul1981 on August 19, 2013, 11:14:16 PM
Quote from: haywirepc;745341
(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3351558924416&set=a.1059239377860.7710.1732190272&type=1&theater)

Thanks to an old friend, I found another old friend again... a breadbox c64.

I even got the xecable with this,to use a windows98 or dos pc as a hard drive...

Took awhile to get it working with c64hdd, and one big problem still remains...

I am using windows98, which does not support long file names. Almost all c64 disk images use long file names, so while its half working... (I have to load disk images in vice to see what the prg file names are, before loading on the c64 side) I would like to get windows 98 supporting long file names so I don't have to keep switching back and forth trying to load stuff...

Anyone know how to get windows 98 or dos to support long file names? I use the windows 98 computer for other things (fasttracker II and dos games) so I'd rather not just install freedos,(which does support long file names) but I suppose I will if I have to.

Renaming the disc images to shorter file names does not work, because the files contained within the disc image still has long file names often... so they generally just do not display when you LIST on the c64...

I'm half way to c64 heaven. The sounds of sid fill my studio... Once again!

:laugh1:

Just gotta figure this out so I can stop driving myself crazy switching back and forth between vice and the real c64...

I love that photo! Where's the red power light though?
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: NovaCoder on August 20, 2013, 12:42:20 AM
Quote from: haywirepc;745341
(https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3351558924416&set=a.1059239377860.7710.1732190272&type=1&theater)

Thanks to an old friend, I found another old friend again... a breadbox c64.

Nice, now go pay some games and some chip tunes :)

Are you going to do the stereo SID mod on this?
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: haywirepc on August 20, 2013, 01:23:53 AM
I don't know why the power light did not show up in the photo, its red and it works...

On the stereo sid mod, yes! I even have a spare sid chip I got with this. (actually I got two c64's one with a bad keyboard and one with some video problems, from two, made one good and the rest is spare parts. Sid chip on spare machine is socketed! Bonus!

No 98 I don't believe fat hd supports long file names from the getgo...

I believe there is some kind of add on that will enable that? Anyone?

Steven
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: haywirepc on August 20, 2013, 01:45:18 AM
I forgot to mention, the photo IS great, thats a huge tv with SVideo input, so the image is really clear... for most things anyhow. I won't be doing any word processing, so I think that tv/monitor will work awesome. It also has audio amp outputs so I don't need the audio out mod on the actual c64...just run the outs from the tv... I see some sid synth sampling in my near future!
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: LoadWB on August 20, 2013, 01:46:36 AM
Quote from: haywirepc;745367
No 98 I don't believe fat hd supports long file names from the getgo...


Windows 95 started the support for long file names.  98 absolutely supports LFN.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: haywirepc on August 20, 2013, 02:08:07 AM
well this software c64hdd runs in a dos box or in dos mode. Perhaps thats the problem? Is there some way in win98 to check on or enable lfn?
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: agami on August 20, 2013, 02:17:30 AM
Windows 95/98/Me supported long file names in explorer but not in DOS. They made it work by implementing a metadata field and DOS file names were truncated to FILENA~1.EXT

In the industry we refer to this as a 'hack'.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: LoadWB on August 20, 2013, 03:28:37 AM
Quote from: agami;745373
Windows 95/98/Me supported long file names in explorer but not in DOS. They made it work by implementing a metadata field and DOS file names were truncated to FILENA~1.EXT

In the industry we refer to this as a 'hack'.


Only partially true.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: haywirepc on August 20, 2013, 04:08:00 AM
OMG that was my windows 95 desktop... really. I remember being all groovy having the plus additions. That was science I think... I used it alot :)

So how to fix this easily?

Allright, if no easy fix presents itself, I see there is a big section on lfn in the c64hdd docs. I will have to RTFM I think...

Just thought someone here already did this and there had to be an easy fix...Otherwise I guess I'm fine just so long as I know the prg file names for the disk images to load. Its so much fun seeing a c64 running demos and games again, but like the amiga, I especially enjoy just running the demos.

What fantastic lengths people pushed this amazing little machine to. Its quite a worthy predecessor to the amiga line.

And you have to know alot of the c64 ideals went into amiga...

So Loadwb, please enlighten us all as to how you did this. I'm pretty sure alot of guys may have a c64 AND a windows 98 machine in their closet...
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: LoadWB on August 20, 2013, 04:19:22 AM
There's no special trick to what I demonstrated.  Windows 95 and up handle LFN right out of the box.  Now, the APPLICATION may not support LFN, in which case you would need to correct the file structure to reflect that.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: commodorejohn on August 20, 2013, 04:30:54 AM
Honestly what I'd do is just get a disk-imaging utility like ImageCreator (http://www.zimmers.net/anonftp/pub/cbm/c64/diskutil/transfer/index.html) and use it with your PC transfer utility to write disk images to physical 1541 media. That'll circumvent the problem entirely.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: haywirepc on August 20, 2013, 04:39:14 AM
Commodorejohn, I respect your experience but should explain :

I have just a breadbox c64 and tv/monitor. I have an cable connecting to my windows 98 machine next to it running c64hdd. I don't have a 1541 or floppy of any type, nor tape machine. This 98 machine is my only means of accessing or loading software.

I don't know what happened, but I copied files from a windows 7 pc to the windows 98 pc (c64 disk images) and they copied with the trunciation of anything past 8 characters.

They have what I had known to be the usual win98 thing something like say a filename like sidcityblasters.d64 becoming sidcityb~.d64

When I try to load the disc image on the c64, I only see the first line of the usual list command listing. (So I'm looking at winvice to see the prg file name and loading it blindly but it works in most cases)

Just another reason to hate microshaft... Can't even be a file server for a 20 year old c64 correctly! :)

Steven
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: LoadWB on August 20, 2013, 05:15:12 AM
Quote from: haywirepc;745399
Just another reason to hate microshaft... Can't even be a file server for a 20 year old c64 correctly! :)


Tons of others make it work... I don't think this is a Microsoft problem :razz:
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: commodorejohn on August 20, 2013, 05:21:29 AM
I guess I'm not 100% clear on what's going on here. The disk images having truncated filenames is just an annoyance, but if (as it sounds) the C64 isn't actually getting the full directory (when you LOAD "$") there's bigger issues at play. If VICE loads them properly, then I would assume something's screwy with either your cable or transfer software. It sounds like the transfer program is DOS software; have you tried A. running it from MS-DOS mode (i.e. rebooting into DOS rather than running it in a DOS box from Windows,) and B. double-checking the cable and any applicable port settings? (Is this a parallel-port cable? If so, check what parallel-port modes it's compatible with, and make sure your BIOS/controller supports and is set to a compatible mode.)
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: Amiga_Nut on August 20, 2013, 09:22:55 AM
Doesn't windows 98 only support LFN in certain situations? ie if a program is set to run in DOS mode then when you double click it from win98 it runs a full screen DOS window and shows the long filenames (and also loads a basic mouse drive too), as  opposed to dropping out of windows into DOS which can only show the truncated filenames? I know it works on the DOS shell program when run inside windows...can the software not be run from the DOS shell CLI whilst win98 is running?
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: Duce on August 20, 2013, 09:33:46 AM
Any reason why you are forcing yourself to use Windows 98?

Wouldn't have the issue if you were not using a 25 year old OS.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: Thorham on August 20, 2013, 01:33:16 PM
Quote from: Duce;745429
Wouldn't have the issue if you were not using a 25 year old OS.

What does that have anything to do with it? You wouldn't have the issue if you were using Amiga OS 3.0, unless you set things up improperly, and that's probably what's going on here.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: smerf on August 20, 2013, 03:09:33 PM
Hi,

@haywirepc,

Ok, I am confused here, how did you get Winblows 95 to run on a C64, I want to know how to do this magic trick since I have one, and that would really be great to see a c64 with 64k of memory running Winblows 95.

I really must be forgetting a lot in my old age, because this is one trick I would like to see. By the way, why do you call it a bread box 64?   Am I missing something here.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: LoadWB on August 20, 2013, 05:13:06 PM
Quote from: Amiga_Nut;745427
Doesn't windows 98 only support LFN in certain situations? ie if a program is set to run in DOS mode then when you double click it from win98 it runs a full screen DOS window and shows the long filenames (and also loads a basic mouse drive too), as  opposed to dropping out of windows into DOS which can only show the truncated filenames? I know it works on the DOS shell program when run inside windows...can the software not be run from the DOS shell CLI whilst win98 is running?


This.  If you restart in DOS mode, LFNs are not recognized.  So long as you're running the program from within Windows, LFNs are supported.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: koaftder on August 20, 2013, 05:26:24 PM
Quote from: haywirepc;745392
OMG that was my windows 95 desktop... really. I remember being all groovy having the plus additions. That was science I think... I used it alot :)


lulz, I thought the same thing. I used the nature theme and my dad used the science theme on his pc.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: commodorejohn on August 20, 2013, 06:00:37 PM
Quote from: Duce;745429
Any reason why you are forcing yourself to use Windows 98?

Wouldn't have the issue if you were not using a 25 year old OS.
Not entirely true. DOS software with no LFN support will have no LFN support no matter what version of Windows it's run on. As for 98, it's actually the last really good choice for esoteric hardware hacks like this cable; XP supports that kind of stuff better than 2000 did, but 98 is far and away the most liberal-minded modern-ish Windows for that purpose.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: haywirepc on August 23, 2013, 03:50:20 AM
To be clear I'm not running windows on a c64 doh.

I'm using c64hdd as a virtual floppy of sorts or file server for the c64...
http://www.64hdd.com/64hdd.html

I have yet to get the lfn support working. Still using vice to view the contents of a disk image (The disk image contents won't display on the c64, just the first line for some reason, probably related to the lfn problem)

c64hdd is a dos program that won't run in winnt,2k,xp,vista,7,8 etc. I also happen to just be using a win98 machine for fast tracker II and dos games so I thought that would be okay...

If I can't get it working soon I'm just going to buy one of the cf card readers... that supports lfn... But I'd rather get this working since the windows 98 pc next to the c64 is here to stay. Have to try and recopy all my c64 disk images with the lfn tools... grrr...
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: commodorejohn on August 23, 2013, 05:07:54 AM
Hmm, okay. The LFN issue should not affect anything on the C64 end of things at all, unless you're using the program's option to mount a DOS filesystem directly as a virtual drive. If you're not doing that and only using disk images, there should be no reason the LFN issue would affect it, which leaves either the disk image, an issue with the program, or an issue with the hardware. The disk images ought to be good if they work in VICE, so we can probably rule that out. If you haven't already, try rebooting into DOS mode (either by pressing F5/F8 just when the BIOS starts booting Windows, or using a separate MS-DOS boot disk) and see if the program gives better results that way (a lot of hardware-hacky software really prefers vanilla DOS, and the C64HDD manual says it can be very timing-sensitive.) Also, as mentioned, check the parallel-port mode in the BIOS; it sounds like the program is more compatible with older parallel ports, so try setting it to SPP.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: Britelite on August 23, 2013, 06:46:11 AM
Quote from: haywirepc;745919
If I can't get it working soon I'm just going to buy one of the cf card readers... that supports lfn... But I'd rather get this working since the windows 98 pc next to the c64 is here to stay. Have to try and recopy all my c64 disk images with the lfn tools... grrr...

The 64HDD is pretty outdated and doesn't work that well. Even if you get it to work, it won't cope with fast loaders used in some games and pretty much all multiload demos.

If you can afford it, I seriously recommend getting either a 1541-ultimate or Chameleon (both work as diskdrive-emulators with images on SD-cards). Both can fully emulate the 1541 diskdrive, and can even cope with fast loaders.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: commodorejohn on August 23, 2013, 07:21:43 AM
Even just a 1581 + 1541 combo (or a single 1571, if you can get a 5.25" drive for your PC) would simplify things enormously.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: danwood on August 23, 2013, 09:21:39 AM
Quote from: Duce;745429
Any reason why you are forcing yourself to use Windows 98?

Wouldn't have the issue if you were not using a 25 year old OS.

1998 = 25 years ago?... I think your maths are off a bit there.

But yeah, depending on the specs of the machine, upgrade it to 2000 or XP, they don't run on top of DOS so you shouldn't have the issue any more.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: commodorejohn on August 23, 2013, 09:42:46 AM
No: they don't run on top of DOS, so you will have even more issues. I like 2000 and XP just fine, but they're not OSes you want to do anything DOS-based and hacky on - 2000 especially. They don't give DOS programs the relatively free reign that 95-98 do, and while that's not too big an issue for something like ZZT, it's a big problem for the kind of program that hacks up a CBM serial-port emulation by manually bit-banging a cable attached to the parallel port. Kids, do not try this at home.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: danwood on August 23, 2013, 10:52:01 AM
Quote from: commodorejohn;745943
No: they don't run on top of DOS, so you will have even more issues. I like 2000 and XP just fine, but they're not OSes you want to do anything DOS-based and hacky on - 2000 especially. They don't give DOS programs the relatively free reign that 95-98 do, and while that's not too big an issue for something like ZZT, it's a big problem for the kind of program that hacks up a CBM serial-port emulation by manually bit-banging a cable attached to the parallel port. Kids, do not try this at home.


Ah I stand corrected then.

I just use an X1541 cable hooked up to a 1541 floppy drive to write disk images, doesn't take long at all and works great.

You can get a 1541 for pennies on ebay these days.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: Oldsmobile_Mike on August 23, 2013, 05:56:47 PM
Totally unrelated, but have you considered one of these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330919501256?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

I've had it on my ebay watch list for forever, looks super-cute and a really easy way to transfer files.  Just a thought!


Also, who asked that question about "why are you calling it a 'breadbox' C64"?  Ugh, facepalm!  Maybe it's just a North American expression or something.  *sigh*
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: CritAnime on August 23, 2013, 08:09:51 PM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;745989
Totally unrelated, but have you considered one of these?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330919501256?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649

I've had it on my ebay watch list for forever, looks super-cute and a really easy way to transfer files.  Just a thought!


Also, who asked that question about "why are you calling it a 'breadbox' C64"?  Ugh, facepalm!  Maybe it's just a North American expression or something.  *sigh*


I was considering buying one of those. But got a 1541 U2 instead.

(http://i.imgur.com/ApYz1Sml.jpg)

Awesome device. Worth the wait for it.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: haywirepc on September 01, 2013, 05:52:26 AM
Still messing around with the win98 machine trying to get it to work better as a file server for the c64...

Also, still looking for an amiga for the studio... ANYONE? - :razz:

Oh how I long to hear dirty drums through paula again and use some of that on my new audio project...
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: Zac67 on September 01, 2013, 01:56:12 PM
The 64HDD software needs to be made to support LFN - have you noticed there's a plugin for that: http://www.64hdd.com/64hdd/details/c64-64hdd.html ?

btw: I'd make sure it's Win98SE I'm running. The initial Win98 was a pita.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: haywirepc on September 01, 2013, 02:55:21 PM
I don't have a copy of win98se, not sure but I think this is original win98. I am aware of the lfn stuff. I think the problem is I need to install that and recopy the files with that lfn hack. I'm going to give that a go tonight...
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: LoadWB on September 01, 2013, 05:34:06 PM
Quote from: haywirepc;746769
I don't have a copy of win98se, not sure but I think this is original win98. I am aware of the lfn stuff. I think the problem is I need to install that and recopy the files with that lfn hack. I'm going to give that a go tonight...


START:Run... "winver" (no quotes) will tell you very quickly what OS you're running.
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: som99 on September 01, 2013, 09:37:41 PM
Quote from: Oldsmobile_Mike;745989
Also, who asked that question about "why are you calling it a 'breadbox' C64"?  Ugh, facepalm!  Maybe it's just a North American expression or something.  *sigh*

We here in Sweden also call it Breadbox (so not a NA thing), well in Swedish breadbox is "Brödlåda" and that's what we say :) Guess it 's because some thinks the early C64's resembles one?
(http://cdn1.cdnme.se/cdn/8-2/177001/images/2009/24081_pe054597_s4_54968648.jpg)

Edit: Not to be confused with Ensemble Breadbox
(http://www.guidebookgallery.org/pics/gui/desktop/full/bbel4.png)
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: persia on September 02, 2013, 01:36:35 AM
Nothing running a decade and a half old OS is bad arse,

(http://cd2.styleanddesign.netdna-cdn.com/forum/customavatars/avatar9_6.gif)
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: commodorejohn on September 02, 2013, 01:38:46 AM
With an attitude like that, why are you even here? Aren't there a billion and a half forums dedicated to rabid noophiles on the Internet that you could hang out on?
Title: Re: c64 - its back and its badass!
Post by: psxphill on September 02, 2013, 01:43:16 AM
Quote from: CritAnime;746003
I was considering buying one of those. But got a 1541 U2 instead.

Yes, not only can it emulate a disk drive it will also emulate a tape drive.
 
The disk drive emulation is complete in the 1541u2, but isn't in the sd2iec.
 
http://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/sd2iec_(firmware)#Are_fastloaders_supported.3F
 
If you just want to transfer files to real 5.25" disks then http://store.go4retro.com/zoomfloppy/ is pretty good for that.