Amiga.org
Operating System Specific Discussions => Other Operating Systems => Topic started by: SysAdmin on August 14, 2013, 06:11:40 AM
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http://www.pcworld.com/article/2046556/microsofts-surface-rt-snafu-prompts-shareholder-suit.html
http://www.zdnet.com/class-action-suit-filed-against-microsoft-over-surface-rt-7000019332/
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX7wtNOkuHo
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My brother told me his wife just brought a Surface RT, my first thought was 'why'
Q) What do you call a tablet with a keyboard attachment?
A) A laptop
:)
I'm actually starting to feel sorry for MS at this point, poor things.
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Hee :D
Of course, the question still remains: exactly how many embarassing public failures will it take before Microsoft finally get it through their heads that they can't engineer their customers to fit the product they want to make?
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The firm is seeking a lead plaintiff for the case.
That's all you really need to read. Just some lawyer douches trying to make some money. Probably have their friends and family shorting MSFT for a quick buck from all the bad publicity.
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Hee :D
Of course, the question still remains: exactly how many embarassing public failures will it take before Microsoft finally get it through their heads that they can't engineer their customers to fit the product they want to make?
Thing is, that's exactly what Apple does and they've been very successful. If you asked customers if they'd like gimped, locked down phones and tablets they'd say no, yet they sell. Same situation for the iMacs which have a severe lack of ports are practically impossible to upgrade and made with yesterdays specs, yet they roll off the assembly line and sell for a premium. You can bet their new trash can computer will be successful despite the retarded form factor and lack of upgrade options, high price tag, etc.
Apple turned their desktop environment into a Fischer Price experience and even screwed with the scroll wheel default direction, things that nobody wanted and were successful with it.
Microsoft's biggest mistake may be the opposite of what you've suggested. They tried too hard to deliver all the things people said they wanted.
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The thing is that Microsoft is not Apple, and Windows's userbase is not iOS's userbase. Any halfwit could tell you this (and plenty did tell them exactly that,) but Microsoft has got it into their heads that they can just forcibly transmogrify their customer base into entirely different people with different requirements out of a computer by sheer force of will. They keep getting hammered with evidence that this is not the case (see also: the XBone fiasco,) but they've yet to actually take any of that to heart...
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but Microsoft has got it into their heads that they can just forcibly transmogrify their customer base into entirely different people with different requirements out of a computer by sheer force of will.
+1. And bonus points for use of the word "transmogrify" in a sentence. You win all the Internets for today. :D
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What do you mean? I listen to my poop brown Zune all the time whilst talking to my friends on my Kin whilst binging some stuff on my Surface RT.
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I had the pleasure of setting up a VPN connection over Teamviewer for a customer today. Took me a while to figure out why I couldn't find anything on the damned thing: it was a Surface Pro.
It'll also be interesting to see what the ~40% price increase from Server 2012 to 2012 R2 does. The cheap-ish virtualization of 2012
seemed to be a very good selling point, but are they really 'doing a VMware' now?
@thread title: you had to, didn't you :D.
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The thing is that Microsoft is not Apple, and Windows's userbase is not iOS's userbase. Any halfwit could tell you this (and plenty did tell them exactly that,) but Microsoft has got it into their heads that they can just forcibly transmogrify their customer base into entirely different people with different requirements out of a computer by sheer force of will. They keep getting hammered with evidence that this is not the case (see also: the XBone fiasco,) but they've yet to actually take any of that to heart...
has got it into their heads that they can just forcibly transmogrify their customer base
Yet that's exactly what Apple does every time they release a new product and they're successful. People snap up iPads left and right and drone on about how great they are while complaining about all the stuff they can't do with it. Meanwhile Microsoft releases products that solve all those issues and they scoff.
When the iMac was introduced way back when, nobody would have said they wanted an all-in-one computer that comes in a half dozen girly colors. When the mini came out what people really wanted was an affordable mac tower. Apple just released a minature trash can computer when customers have been saying for years that they wanted a balls to the wall beast mac with tons of room to cram hardware into and the latest spec CPU and graphics. For years people dreamed of an Apple tablet on the fanboy forums. Everybody thought it would run OS X and be an open book.
Windows 8 and the Surface tablets was Microsoft's attempt to give the customer what he asked for by listening to the complaints people had about competing products. Surface Pro rectifies all the complaints people had about other tablets. It's actually a pretty nice product, problem is people say they want one thing but turn around and grab something else. RT is kind of lame, but hey, people said they wanted ARM.
Windows's userbase is not iOS's userbase.
They actually are, considering that most iPhone and iPad users are syncing their devices up to Windows computers. This really highlights one important thing about users these days, they have no brand loyalty, especially when it comes to mobile devices. That and mobile operating systems aren't important to average users. Dollar apps are a disposable commodity so folks don't feel like they have an "investment" to protect and the internet of things have brought the price of content down to near zero.
Microsoft's biggest mistake was in trying to give people what they thought they wanted. The latest XBox is a testament to that mentality. How many times have you hear folks bitching about all the crap shoved under their TV and the pile of remotes they have to juggle? So they've created the ultimate in your face, one super ultra mega box to rule them all and dominate your living room with an iron fist. Cameras and mics to monitor your ass 24/7 and apps to manage your fantasy football teams...
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Don't just laugh at M$, look at the junk HP is trying to foist on us with their "all in one" garbage. What a bunch of crap!
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Yet that's exactly what Apple does every time they release a new product and they're successful. People snap up iPads left and right and drone on about how great they are while complaining about all the stuff they can't do with it. Meanwhile Microsoft releases products that solve all those issues and they scoff.
Again, Apple manages to make it work because they're Apple, and Apple has spent decades crafting a user culture that wants to be coddled and told what they want and given shiny new crib toys to play with. Microsoft hasn't, they don't have that user culture, and they haven't even spent any time trying to craft one; they've just released products nobody wants and then demanded that customers adapt their expectations to fit what's being sold instead of trying to adapt what they sell to fit what customers want. And they're getting rightfully excoriated for it.
They actually are, considering that most iPhone and iPad users are syncing their devices up to Windows computers.
The thing is that nobody buys Windows because they want an iPad. If they did they would buy an iPad. And yes, many of them do buy iPads - which means they already have iPads, and absolutely nobody was giving any indication that they wanted their PC to also be an iPad, or that they wanted an iPad that was made by Microsoft instead of Apple. Which is why next to nobody has reacted to this by saying "you got your iPad in my PC! TWO GREAT TASTES THAT TASTE GREAT TOGETHER!!!" Sometimes I eat tuna fish. Sometimes I eat chocolate. This does not mean that I'm looking for a happy medium between the two.
Windows 8 and the Surface tablets was Microsoft's attempt to give the customer what he asked for by listening to the complaints people had about competing products. Surface Pro rectifies all the complaints people had about other tablets. It's actually a pretty nice product, problem is people say they want one thing but turn around and grab something else. RT is kind of lame, but hey, people said they wanted ARM.
Microsoft's biggest mistake was in trying to give people what they thought they wanted. The latest XBox is a testament to that mentality. How many times have you hear folks bitching about all the crap shoved under their TV and the pile of remotes they have to juggle? So they've created the ultimate in your face, one super ultra mega box to rule them all and dominate your living room with an iron fist. Cameras and mics to monitor your ass 24/7 and apps to manage your fantasy football teams...
This is complete nonsense. Nobody wanted desktop Windows to be a tablet OS. Very few people even wanted a Microsoft-branded tablet. Windows 8 is entirely Microsoft's baby; it's their attempt to do a cargo-cult copy of the iPad, because they saw how much money Apple was raking in with those suckers. This is obvious when you look at the Windows Store - they want developers to just give them a cut of their sales for no other reason than because developers have settled for letting Apple do that to them. This is not about what Windows users want; it's about what Microsoft wants.
And that's even more true for the XBone. Every single thing about that was a middle finger to gamers and a self-service to Microsoft - requiring the Kinect, which nobody wanted, so that it would look like less of a failure (and net another $100 per unit,) locking down the used-games market so that Microsoft and their publisher friends could help themselves to the majority of used-game revenue at the cost of screwing over gamers and retailers alike, requiring always-online because...who the hell even knows, presumably they think it's some way to combat piracy? That was entirely about exploiting customers to serve their own interests. Sony basically had E3 handed to them on a silver platter because the only thing they had to do was make an announcement saying "hey, guys, we're not planning on actively screwing you over" and they automatically looked like the good guys.
Microsoft is continually banging their head against the wall with this attitude, expecting their customer base to adapt itself to what it is that Microsoft wants to be doing, rather than offering customers what they want and winning hearts and dollars thereby. It's not a mutually-beneficial customer/business relationship - it's a predatory one, and surprisingly enough it turns out that people don't like being preyed upon.
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What they need to do is develop an Android port. The Surface would be a killer Android tablet.
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Fail on prices. They keep dropping prices. It almost like the game show Shop Till you drop. Of course in the opposite direction. Starting with high prices than going to lower prices. I will wait and see what happens with lawsuit. I do believe that Microsoft had it coming.
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Don't just laugh at M$, look at the junk HP is trying to foist on us with their "all in one" garbage. What a bunch of crap!
I have to agree, I see no point at all to buy an "all in one pc" but that's just me, I don't like to buy new hardware with limited expandability, commonly subjects to heat problems and no work space inside the case, and to not forget your stuck with the display you got whether you like it or not :(
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but Microsoft has got it into their heads that they can just forcibly transmogrify their customer base into entirely different people with different requirements out of a computer by sheer force of will.
No, they offered a product that was like one of their previous products but also like a product that was selling well in the market.
I'm sick of the anti Windows 8 FUD. I've been using Windows for years, it used to be terrible but Windows 2000 onwards is fine. I prefer Windows 8 on my laptop that came with Vista than any previous OS & I haven't been brainwashed.
Word on the street is this is a sham suit.
Nobody wanted desktop Windows to be a tablet OS. Very few people even wanted a Microsoft-branded tablet.
a. Windows 8 works fine as a desktop os, I don't even know what a tablet OS is. You seem to be talking about the change from the Start Menu to the Start Screen. I rarely used the Start Menu, I never use the Start Screen as all the prior Start Menu functionality is available without using it.
b. When did you get back from asking everybody what they wanted from desktop Windows?
c. Giving people what they want is stupid, because people are stupid (which is why democracy never works). A good example of this was I recently found someone complaining that Microsoft were using standard AA batteries for the Xbox one controller, like they want to have to buy a proprietary battery from Microsoft or something. There are people vocal about taking the Start Menu away, but there was an even bigger backlash against Microsoft when they introduced the Start Menu in 1995 (according to the reports, everybody wanted it to look like Windows 3.1).
I wouldn't buy an Android tablet because I don't want to throw away a perfectly good tablet because the manufacturer doesn't want to provide security updates. Apple and Microsoft are going to become the only real options in the tablet and phone market. Apple won't compete at the low end of the market, which leaves Microsoft as the only one worth buying.
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They altered an existing product line into something different and are expecting people to switch to that (it's not like they're going to continue selling 7 indefinitely, or do the sensible thing and spin off a tablet OS,) despite the fact that basically nobody wanted it and huge numbers of people repeatedly told them so very publicly during development.
Nobody said you were brainwashed. Doesn't mean you have good taste.
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huge numbers of people repeatedly told them so very publicly during development.
Every time a few idiots start a hate campaign against Microsoft it makes the news. Once you ignore them and just get on with using it then you will have a much happier life.
Having a separate tablet OS doesn't work, they already did that with Windows XP Tablet PC edition. The only way to make the market move is to include it in the standard OS, which they did for Windows 7. Windows 8 is just a slight upgrade of that, because Windows 7 didn't persuade enough people to use a tablet.
The idea of Metro is good, maybe not the execution. However it doesn't harm you if you don't use it, I don't ever use it. Although in the long term desktop apps will disappear, so hopefully they'll have got it sorted by then. I'm not sure how all software will work being installed from an app store, but to solve the install/uninstall problem in Windows it needs to change (you get the same problems in Linux/MacOS, it just doesn't show up because of the lack of apps and the users).
I was hoping that we'd see Windows 8 laptops with Kinect bundled, so you could use hand waving gestures to control it. But then I'm not a luddite.
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@psxphil
Why do you run Windows 8?
What was so bad about Windows 7 that you had to throw it away and run out and buy Windows 8?
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Why do you run Windows 8?
What was so bad about Windows 7 that you had to throw it away and run out and buy Windows 8?
Windows 8 is better than Windows 7, it's quicker & has more functionality.
There are some machines that can run Windows 7 but not Windows 8, from around the Pentium 3 timeframe. Unless you a really old machine then the only reason I can think of to stick with Windows 7 is an attachment to the Start Menu, Aero or XP Mode.
I don't have an emotional attachment to any of the "contentious" changes, so I don't have any reason to deprive myself of Windows 8's benefits.
FWIW I quite liked Vista as well, it was the first viable version of 64 bit windows. I couldn't see why I should deprive myself of that and stick to XP either.
I do tend to upgrade early and I'm not saying you all have to upgrade, I wouldn't actually persuade anyone to upgrade any software at all unless they could easily embrace change, even if the software they were used to and happy with was a steaming pile of excrement.
People who hate change will always hate change, whether the change is good or not. Hating on Windows 8 when you don't like change is dumb, it's only purpose is to legitimise their feelings by influencing less informed people (it's like starting your own religion).
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Every time a few idiots start a hate campaign against Microsoft it makes the news. Once you ignore them and just get on with using it then you will have a much happier life.
Yes, once you discount all the people who object to a thing, there cannot be any dissent! Clearly! (And the fact that nobody has any objection to Windows 8 fits perfectly with the way its rate of adoption has only just recently surpassed that of Vista.)
Having a separate tablet OS doesn't work, they already did that with Windows XP Tablet PC edition. The only way to make the market move is to include it in the standard OS, which they did for Windows 7. Windows 8 is just a slight upgrade of that, because Windows 7 didn't persuade enough people to use a tablet.
First off, XP Tablet failed for a multitude of reasons: its UI sucked, the hardware sucked and was also x86 at a time before x86 was any good for sub-laptop mobile hardware, and there was essentially no software tailored for a good tablet user experience other than the pack-ins. None of those had anything to do with its status as a spin-off.
Second, I'm curious as to how you think Windows 7, with its megalithic GPU-intensive Aero UI, was in any way intended as a tablet OS...
The idea of Metro is good, maybe not the execution. However it doesn't harm you if you don't use it, I don't ever use it.
"This new product totally isn't a failure if you simply avoid exactly the thing that most differentiates it from its own predecessor!"
Although in the long term desktop apps will disappear, so hopefully they'll have got it sorted by then.
Right, because everybody's developing all that great new Metro software that will totally fill all the gaps left by 17+ years of quality Win32 software. No worries there!
I'm not sure how all software will work being installed from an app store, but to solve the install/uninstall problem in Windows it needs to change
I fail to see how "developers give Microsoft 30% of their revenue" is a necessary part of a solution to wonky installation issues.
I was hoping that we'd see Windows 8 laptops with Kinect bundled, so you could use hand waving gestures to control it. But then I'm not a luddite.
You know, some people don't object to Kinect because they're Luddites. Some people object to Kinect because A. controlling things by waving your arms around is a hell of a lot more work than controlling them with a mouse and keyboard, B. it makes you look like a total spaz, and C. it will likely cause the person sitting next to you on the plane to bash your head in with your own laptop.
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Yes, once you discount all the people who object to a thing, there cannot be any dissent! Clearly! (And the fact that nobody has any objection to Windows 8 fits perfectly with the way its rate of adoption has only just recently surpassed that of Vista.)
You're a hypocrite, you discount all the people who don't object to it all the time.
Windows sales figures are generally tied in with new PC sales, which we know aren't selling because everybody is currently buying tablets instead. Which is why Microsoft are trying to enter the tablet market again. Your argument shows that Microsoft should have made Windows 8 more like an ipad or android tablet.
Second, I'm curious as to how you think Windows 7, with its megalithic GPU-intensive Aero UI, was in any way intended as a tablet OS...
You could get Windows 7 tablets, which were controllable with pens and gestures. Microsoft rolled the Windows XP tablet features rolled into Windows 7, so you can enable them on Windows 7. How is that not intended as a tablet OS?
I was tempted by a Windows 7 tablet.
http://szinnovation588.en.made-in-china.com/product/RoXEajAdLKWO/China-10-2-Touch-LCD-160G-Hardware-With-Windows-7-Tablet-PC-M-01-.html
"This new product totally isn't a failure if you simply avoid exactly the thing that most differentiates it from its own predecessor!"
The thing that most differentiates Windows 8 from Windows 7 for me is the performance enhancements and the extra functionality. I don't see how something that is optional and can be ignored can be seen as the major differentiation.
Right, because everybody's developing all that great new Metro software that will totally fill all the gaps left by 17+ years of quality Win32 software. No worries there!
The problem is that most Win32 software is written by idiots, so Microsoft needs to push managed apps that have a standard structure so the idiots can stop messing up peoples computers.
I fail to see how "developers give Microsoft 30% of their revenue" is a necessary part of a solution to wonky installation issues.
Those are two different issues, an app store doesn't require developers to give Microsoft 30% of revenue. There are benefits to having the apps tested by Microsoft before being unleashed on PC's. Having to clean up friends and family's computers for years when they installed software they got tricked into installing on some web page, I actually quite like the idea of only allowing them to install software that has been verified by Microsoft.
You know, some people don't object to Kinect because they're Luddites. Some people object to Kinect because A. controlling things by waving your arms around is a hell of a lot more work than controlling them with a mouse and keyboard, B. it makes you look like a total spaz, and C. it will likely cause the person sitting next to you on the plane to bash your head in with your own laptop.
People mainly don't like Kinect because they are scared the camera is being used to spy on them. I was hoping for Microsoft to actually push Kinect and makes something better than a keyboard and mouse, assuming that it's impossible for it to be done better than a keyboard or mouse is proof you are a luddite. For instance the Kinect could track your hand, duplicating the functionality of a mouse without having to hold something or have a flat surface. The camera doesn't necessarily have to be pointing at your face.
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You're a hypocrite, you discount all the people who don't object to it all the time.
No I don't, I just don't care what they think.
Windows sales figures are generally tied in with new PC sales, which we know aren't selling because everybody is currently buying tablets instead. Which is why Microsoft are trying to enter the tablet market again. Your argument shows that Microsoft should have made Windows 8 more like an ipad or android tablet.
I won't dispute that Microsoft should've handled their tablet OS better if they really want to get into the tablet market (though in my opinion it's far, far too late for another major player to enter that game.) What I'm saying is that it was a terrible idea to try and make the desktop OS and the tablet OS the same thing.
You could get Windows 7 tablets, which were controllable with pens and gestures. Microsoft rolled the Windows XP tablet features rolled into Windows 7, so you can enable them on Windows 7. How is that not intended as a tablet OS?
Huh, hadn't heard of those, which I suppose is an indicator of how big a splash they made. I'd still maintain that there's a big difference between including optional tablet-adaptation features and actually being full-fledged geared toward tablet use.
The thing that most differentiates Windows 8 from Windows 7 for me is the performance enhancements and the extra functionality. I don't see how something that is optional and can be ignored can be seen as the major differentiation.
It can be seen that way because it is the immediate, public face of Windows 8 and the biggest thing they've been promoting about it...
The problem is that most Win32 software is written by idiots, so Microsoft needs to push managed apps that have a standard structure so the idiots can stop messing up peoples computers.
And you think that Metro software isn't going to be written by idiots? Or that "standard structure" will help? Tell me again, how much crap shovelware is there on the iOS App Store?
Those are two different issues, an app store doesn't require developers to give Microsoft 30% of revenue.
The Windows Store does. Maybe some hypothetical app store wouldn't, but that's hardly relevant to a discussion of Windows 8.
Also, I'm curious about this notion that a centralized software repository will solve all installation woes forever. Because, uh, it sure hasn't seemed to work for Linux.
People mainly don't like Kinect because they are scared the camera is being used to spy on them. I was hoping for Microsoft to actually push Kinect and makes something better than a keyboard and mouse, assuming that it's impossible for it to be done better than a keyboard or mouse is proof you are a luddite. For instance the Kinect could track your hand, duplicating the functionality of a mouse without having to hold something or have a flat surface. The camera doesn't necessarily have to be pointing at your face.
Yeah, the spy-camera potential is another good reason to avoid it, but seriously: even just as a mouse replacement, it's at least as much work for negligible advantage. Suggesting it would be a better keyboard than a keyboard is frankly imbecilic.
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Why does this Ad look like it could totally be updated to sell the Surface?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk
:)
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Ye gods. The man has looked identical over the course of my entire lifetime.
Now I'm curious to see what the portrait in his attic looks like.
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Why does this Ad look like it could totally be updated to sell the Surface?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGvHNNOLnCk
:)
Hahaha, made me smile :)
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At first, I couldn't see how "bad news" regarding M$ products was bad - but I get it now. Bad news surfaces... I see what you did there. :lol:
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http://a0.twimg.com/profile_images/2456708024/cttvdewmkx3d1srwvgdc.jpeg
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You actually tried Win 8 yet, John?
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You actually tried Win 8 yet, John?
Nope. Has it become not a catastrophically stupid idea while I wasn't looking?
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Then every word you shout from the mountaintops about it carries no weight at all. You're that guy every city in RL has, underneath the bridge on the freeway, wearing a tinfoil hat shouting doom and gloom about something you admittedly *haven't even tried*.
People that have used it will be happy to tell you what is wrong with it. I'm one of them. Many will also tell you that it's absolutely rock stable, faster than Windows 7, and how the Metro interface you spew vehemence about can be entirely disabled with a few simple clicks.
I'm no apologist for MS, or Windows 8. I'm a MCSE/MSCA that only got into Windows 8 because I was forced to support it and be familiar with it if I want to pay my bills and put food on my table. I will be the first guy to tell you what an unmitigated train wreck Windows RT is/was. I'll be the first guy to tell you that the whole "2 OS's in one" idea was a bad one in regards to W8 x86 having a full touch (Metro) interface in addition to a full (and improved compared to W7) traditional desktop interface. It confused the common man something terrible, and MS are now back pedaling with 8.1, which is due out (for free, upgrade wise) in October. I still use Windows 7 as my main OS, for the record. But I imagine 8.1 will change that some. I have no doubts 10 years from now, Windows 8 initial version will be viewed as more of an unmitigated, confusing mess than Vista ever was. But I've also used 8.1, and it is leaps and bounds better. Your opinions are in no way wrong, infact you are spot on when you point out what is wrong with it, but the point to make is anything you say about it wasn't gained by the slightest bit of personal trial of W8 at all.
For a very intelligent, well spoken fellow John - the fact you go off the rails at any given opportunity about something you have not even laid hands on is, well - a bit embarrassing at worst, and hysterical at best. Nothing personal, man. Hell, half the reason I stick around A.org is to read posts from guys like you, but surely you can see the gross irony in all of it, no?
The least you owe yourself is to be educated in why you vehemently hate something so fiercely, and not ever trying it while hard lining against in on some holy war basis without even trying it is just weird. I'd love for you to try it even for 10 minutes and write up a 4 page "why I hate Windows 8" post, but it's hard to take when you haven't even tried it, you know? I'd relish every bad (or good) word you have to say about it - if you had even tried it. Otherwise, you're just that weird dude that every city has that shouts at moving traffic about invisible aliens.
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But I've also used 8.1, and it is leaps and bounds better.
I disagree that it's leaps and bounds better. The amount that Windows 8.1 is better than Windows 8 by, isn't as big as the amount that Windows 8 is better than Windows 7 by.
I've got 8.1 on my netbook, but haven't gotten round to install it on my main laptop yet. While the benefits of Windows 8 persuaded me to install it immediately.
Nope. Has it become not a catastrophically stupid idea while I wasn't looking?
Who told you it ever was? Why did you believe them? I wouldn't let people manipulate you like that, their motives are unlikely to be good. Some people would get a kick out of winding you up like this.
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I unwisely made the jump to windows 8 with my new PC, I thought I'd give the befit of the doubt because some users say its not that bad, but it is just DOG SH#T!
Ok eventually you can set it up to be very much like Win7 and have just the desktop like experiences but until you do, expect productivity and easy of use to be cut down in half. Plus put it this way I've had three blue screens of death and not waking from sleep mode issues where as with win7 I dont recall ever having any crash or issue.
I also have ubuntu on my PC and I'm finding myself booting into that more often because of the issue and of course my AmigaONE x1000 so in a way I'm glad it so bad as I might now give up on Microsoft and literally only use for the odd exclusive game.
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Ok eventually you can set it up to be very much like Win7 and have just the desktop like experiences but until you do, expect productivity and easy of use to be cut down in half.
Can you explain what halved your productivity? And what you did to increase your productivity to Windows 7 levels.
When I first installed Windows 8 beta I missed the Start Menu & did all the hacks that brought it back. As I reinstalled each time I realised I was spending more time putting the hacks back to make myself comfortable than I actually ever did using them. Especially when I bothered to learn where everything had moved to.
Forcing people to accept change is not a bad thing. Even if it makes them temporarily uncomfortable.
About the only thing I ever change in the UI, which I've been doing for years now, is to enable single click in explorer. It really messes people up if they aren't used to it, but it's so much more productive. I think Microsoft toyed with making it the default and it's unfortunate they didn't have the balls to go through with it.
I also have ubuntu on my PC and I'm finding myself booting into that more often because of the issue and of course my AmigaONE x1000 so in a way I'm glad it so bad as I might now give up on Microsoft and literally only use for the odd exclusive game.
I don't get how you can say you can easily cope with the differences between Windows 7, Ubuntu and AmigaOS4, but say that the Windows 7 to Windows 8 changes halve your productivity. It makes it sound like you found an excuse to bash Microsoft than you have an actual problem.
For example I left my mum's computer on Vista because she has the clock and calendar on the sidebar and Windows 7 doesn't come with that & I really don't need the hassle of trying to make her comfortable with the change. She wouldn't be able to cope with switching to Ubuntu or AmigaOS though, but you can. Seems kinda odd that.
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That's all you really need to read. Just some lawyer douches trying to make some money. Probably have their friends and family shorting MSFT for a quick buck from all the bad publicity.
And the high probability that the same most likely promoted the story to the tech media in order to drum up potential litigants. And the media follows that insider source without checking or verification.
I have a Surface RT which I replaced my iPad 2 with last xmas. The iPad is my wife's now and I don't miss it at all. But I stopped listening to hype a while back. It's outcomes and productivity that I use to determine successful products. The MS surface adverts make me cringe too. But that's marketing. We all know how great Commodore's marketing was. U keeping up with me?
BTW: What's the first thing people with and iPad do when they want to type on it?....Buy a 3rd party keyboard.
BTBTW: @Duce save your energy, it's not worth the effort. It's clear aliens are invisible otherwise we'd all see them.
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People resist change. The Windows ball hasn't had start on it since 2007, yet people still call it the "Start Menu." It's back in 8.1 and it basically does the same thing the Windows key does, it brings you to the Windows 8 Desktop. What is wrong with the Windows 8 desktop? Basically it doesn't look like the Windows 7 flop up menu, that's the bottom line. People attacked the flop up "Start" button in Windows 95 when it first came out, for very valid reasons, but people have grown used to it and they now cling to it. Face it, the flop up Windows ball was a dumb idea in 1994 and is even dumber 2 decades later. I, for one, am happy to see it gone.
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People resist change. The Windows ball hasn't had start on it since 2007, yet people still call it the "Start Menu." It's back in 8.1 and it basically does the same thing the Windows key does, it brings you to the Windows 8 Desktop. What is wrong with the Windows 8 desktop? Basically it doesn't look like the Windows 7 flop up menu, that's the bottom line. People attacked the flop up "Start" button in Windows 95 when it first came out, for very valid reasons, but people have grown used to it and they now cling to it. Face it, the flop up Windows ball was a dumb idea in 1994 and is even dumber 2 decades later. I, for one, am happy to see it gone.
"Start me up! If you start me up I never stop." How prophetic were those words. 18 years ago.
The start screen is the start menu. But it's an invisible alien at the moment.
The reality that we all think we know is based on context, knowledge and experience(scepticism and doubt can lead us into traps just as quickly as belief and fad) . Point of fact: https://www.facebook.com/ChristiansAgainstSlipknot?directed_target_id=0
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People resist change. The Windows ball hasn't had start on it since 2007, yet people still call it the "Start Menu." It's back in 8.1 and it basically does the same thing the Windows key does, it brings you to the Windows 8 Desktop. What is wrong with the Windows 8 desktop? Basically it doesn't look like the Windows 7 flop up menu, that's the bottom line.
I don't think thats all of it. I installed 8 on a Tablet PC. It took longer using the touch interface with a touch pen to find and start the apps I wanted IMO it comes down the inefficient use of screen size: massive tiles mean larger hand movements, more hand movements, less information within easy reach. It slows the user down, it creates an obstacle that just doesn't need to be there.
I installed a 3rd part start menu, 1 week later, and made 8 boot straight into the desktop. But it still *felt* cumbersome: it takes more clicks to get to the control panel for example.
And the default theme windows just looks bad.
I eventually took it off after 1 month and went back to Windows 7.
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I don't think thats all of it. I installed 8 on a Tablet PC. It took longer using the touch interface with a touch pen to find and start the apps I wanted IMO it comes down the inefficient use of screen size: massive tiles mean larger hand movements, more hand movements, less information within easy reach. It slows the user down, it creates an obstacle that just doesn't need to be there.
I installed a 3rd part start menu, 1 week later, and made 8 boot straight into the desktop. But it still *felt* cumbersome: it takes more clicks to get to the control panel for example.
And the default theme windows just looks bad.
I eventually took it off after 1 month and went back to Windows 7.
Hi stefcep2. What tablet PC did you install it on?
Did you try showing the control panel icon on the desktop?
Right click or hold your finger/stylus on the desktop. Select "personalise" select "change desktop icons" check "control panel". Now you have control panel on the desktop just below my computer and network. No change from windows 7.
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I'd rather they just do away with the desktop and start in the Windows 8 tiles. You can put anything you want in the tiles and arrange them any way you want. So if you wanted a Control Panel tile you can have one.
Scrolling the panels isn't bad either, just swipe to the left or right on the touchpad. Most people have a tablet in addition to a desktop or laptop so the swipe gesture is within their comfort level. Indeed in a smartphone and tablet world the flop up button is the odd one out, it's not "natural" in the sense you won't see it on other devices.
Windows 8 was a mis-step. The folks at Apple realise that even though the gestures are similar the interfaces need to be different on laptops/desktops versus tablets/smartphones.
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Then every word you shout from the mountaintops about it carries no weight at all. You're that guy every city in RL has, underneath the bridge on the freeway, wearing a tinfoil hat shouting doom and gloom about something you admittedly *haven't even tried*.
Oh, I was always going to be that guy. It's been my lifelong destiny.
And again, we come to this notion that you can't say something which plainly makes no sense (sticking a tablet UI on a desktop OS, positioning tablet UI as the future of desktop PCs) is stupid unless you've actually used it, because there's some kind of mystical property incommunicable in mortal tongues that makes it totally brilliant, and also the emperor isn't naked, you're just not refined enough to see his magnificent threads.
People that have used it will be happy to tell you what is wrong with it. I'm one of them. Many will also tell you that it's absolutely rock stable, faster than Windows 7, and how the Metro interface you spew vehemence about can be entirely disabled with a few simple clicks.
Yes, that is my understanding - but you know what? The fact that you can batter the stupidity into submission does not make it not stupid. You still have to set it to boot into desktop mode on a damn desktop PC (where it ought to be doing it by default,) you still have to resort to third-party hacks to get the Start menu back, you still have to employ a workaround to get to a whole assload of settings that used to be available right from the Control Panel, etc. All the snazzy technical underpinnings in the world won't make that not idiotic. I'll stop judging Microsoft on this crap when they stop pushing it.
Your opinions are in no way wrong, infact you are spot on when you point out what is wrong with it, but the point to make is anything you say about it wasn't gained by the slightest bit of personal trial of W8 at all.
This is absolutely the most baffling thing. You yourself agree with me, you say that nothing I'm saying is wrong, yet because my opinions were formed from observation and discussion rather than direct hands-on experience, they're missing the "magic something" required to make them meaningful?
Also, as regards 8.1, have they actually put the real Start Menu back yet? Last I heard (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2013/06/28) they were still sticking you with the Metro screen...
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Who told you it ever was? Why did you believe them? I wouldn't let people manipulate you like that, their motives are unlikely to be good. Some people would get a kick out of winding you up like this.
I like how you jump to the conclusion that some Svengali has been feeding sinister anti-Win8 lies into my brain. Because of course I couldn't have used my own powers of communication, observation, and deduction to figure this out myself or something.
Forcing people to accept change is not a bad thing. Even if it makes them temporarily uncomfortable.
Right you are. So I'm going to chop off your legs and replace them with a fish tail. I know it's not what you're used to or want, but if you just try it you'll find that you're ever so much better a swimmer!
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This is absolutely the most baffling thing. You yourself agree with me, you say that nothing I'm saying is wrong, yet because my opinions were formed from observation and discussion rather than direct hands-on experience, they're missing the "magic something" required to make them meaningful?
He's telling you that you can't criticize anything unless you vote for it 100 times first. At 1 vote = $1. Then realize you were wrong for voting that way.
Then you can criticize it.
This is like saying you can't criticize Obama for attacking Civil Rights, Snowden, etc. unless you voted for him.
This is like saying you can't criticize the locked-down stupidity of the iphone unless you first buy one and spend 20 hours using it and trying to figure out how to unlock it.
This is like saying you can't criticize lawyers for filing fake lawsuits unless you have actually been a lawyer and filed fake lawsuits yourself.
This is like saying you can't criticize the cops for beating up an unarmed person laying on the ground unless you have actually been a cop before.
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If you are comparing serious social and political issues that effect us all, regardless of our respective races, color, creed or similar - to ones opinion on the latest operating system to hit the market, we're really on two different planets here, lol.
What I am saying is armchair quarterbacking on something you've never even used is just about the most self defeating thing one can do. There's errors absolutely EVERYWHERE in the posts. Information culled off various halfwit news services that simply isn't true, lol. Someone that spent 10 minutes with it would know better. People with such vehemence to actually call things outright awful or refer to things as "failures" should at least take the time to experience it and dislike something based on their own experiences.
8.1 is a free download. Gonna hate something, at least be able to say "yeah, I tried it, and here's 100 reasons why I dislike it!".
You're right - we do agree on many of the bad things about Windows 8. Difference is, I know why I don't care for them due to hands on experience rather than via whatever.
You wouldn't pay much mind nor have much use for a movie critic in the local newspaper if every review he writes starts out with:
"I didn't bother seeing the film, but I think I got a good idea what it's like from watching trailers on TV for it. My brother says it sucks, my paperboy says it sucks, so it obviously sucks - 2 thumbs down!!!!"
would you? No, you wouldn't.
Re: Phil. I've found 8.1 offers far better gaming performance over 8.0, so that's leaps and bounds to me, as I'm a pretty big gamer.
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You wouldn't pay much mind nor have much use for a movie critic in the local newspaper if every review he writes starts out with:
"I didn't bother seeing the film, but I think I got a good idea what it's like from watching trailers on TV for it. My brother says it sucks, my paperboy says it sucks, so it obviously sucks - 2 thumbs down!!!!"
I trust what the brother and paperboy say over what any film critic says. :D
Seriously, I have found that professional movie reviewers have warped tastes and they are completely out of touch with regular ppl.
I have read many surveys that confirm this.
Ok, back to the W8 topic: I am a little bit surprised that you like W8 for gaming. The other day my brother was reading over a list of games to try out and a lot of the games said "Does not work on Windows 8". So it would seem to me that, overall, Windows7 would be better for gaming.
I haven't yet seen any Windows8 games that said "Does not work on Windows7". I am sure they exist but I think they far fewer in number.
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There's errors absolutely EVERYWHERE in the posts.
Then correct it, don't just stand around smarming about it. If you have better information that you're withholding, you don't get to act smug about it.
8.1 is a free download. Gonna hate something, at least be able to say "yeah, I tried it, and here's 100 reasons why I dislike it!".
Donate a computer that can run it, and I will. I'm not screwing around with my existing systems just for this.
You wouldn't pay much mind nor have much use for a movie critic in the local newspaper if every review he writes starts out with:
"I didn't bother seeing the film, but I think I got a good idea what it's like from watching trailers on TV for it. My brother says it sucks, my paperboy says it sucks, so it obviously sucks - 2 thumbs down!!!!"
This isn't like judging the quality of a movie based on trailers. This is like judging the quality of a movie based on the fact that it's actually a flipbook with a companion 8-track.
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Me not correcting people for posting blatantly false information dredged off various websites is being smug, lol? Come on, man. You can do better than that. If people are going to post "facts", it isn't my job to ensure what you say is the truth. I assume people wouldn't post FUD without actual experience to back it up, that's all.
As for hardware, I'm running W8 on an old AMD X2 machine with an nVidia 7800 in it. Runs it just fine by my standards.
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Hi stefcep2. What tablet PC did you install it on?
An old Toshiba Toshiba Portege M400. Dual Core 1.8 Ghz 2 Gb Ram.
Did you try showing the control panel icon on the desktop?
Right click or hold your finger/stylus on the desktop. Select "personalise" select "change desktop icons" check "control panel". Now you have control panel on the desktop just below my computer and network. No change from windows 7.
I didn't know this. But why take it away to begin with?
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People who are not using WIN8 should know its MANY,MANY times faster then win7, MANY times faster than Ubuntu, MANY times faster than latest OSX... AND i run them all at home... Ive used a wide variety of leading OSses and WIN8 aint half bad. And if MS first atemt on a WIN/NOTEpad failed... who cares, there's plenty fish in the sea... :sealed:
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I don't think Windows 8 is the 'worst' Windows. I think it is a 'step back' or downgrade from Windows 7.
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People who are not using WIN8 should know its MANY,MANY times faster then win7, MANY times faster than Ubuntu, MANY times faster than latest OSX... AND i run them all at home... Ive used a wide variety of leading OSses and WIN8 aint half bad. And if MS first atemt on a WIN/NOTEpad failed... who cares, there's plenty fish in the sea... :sealed:
I disagree with you. Faster speeds don't mean it stable. Microsoft and their security leaks. How long does it take windows to fix a security leak? A long time. Windows slows down over time. Back doors in windows. Don't get me started. All one needs to know is Command prompt.
I will never own a Mac system. I hate the User-interface. You rent the software on Mac. You don't own it. That info can be found on the User agreement.
Linux is more of being stable and secure verse being the fast operation system out there. Linux when there is security leak. The Linux programmers go and fix it in couple days. Linux saves the environment. It gives old laptops and desktops new life.
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Linux saves the environment. It gives old laptops and desktops new life.
Okay, I'll put up with a lot of dubious claims, but this is quite frankly just horseshít. The endlessly-perpetuated myth of Linux the Featherweight Champion derives what truth it ever had from nerds' stripped-down custom distros that ran with barely more than a tiling window manager with a bare desktop and a bunch of shell sessions in XTerm - yeah, you can do that plenty easy on a 486, let's see you do something impressive on it. Modern distros with modern desktop environments are hardly lighter than their Windows and Mac contemporaries and (in my experience) generally perform worse on low-end systems than "the leading brand." Certainly they're nothing at all like a rejuvenation of an aging machine. (And that's not even getting into the issue of whether the hardware in your old laptop or desktop is even supported...) Windows XP would be a better choice for low-end computing than modern Linux.
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Amiga - The featherweight OS!
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Damn straight!
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XP simply isn't an option for most people in such usage cases, not for much longer anyways. I go through a fair number of PC's. Often end up working on some older machine a friend, customer or family had, they decide they would rather just buy a whole new machine than throw even $50 into an old one if it needs a new HD. I get stuck with the old hardware.
Often, they will come with a copy of XP in some form. I usually get the machines working and pass them onto someone who can use them, even if they are a bit older, they still make for decent enough email machines and good for word processing and such. I'd rather see it in the room of an elderly lady at a nursing home, her playing Solitaire on it, rather than put it in a landfill, you know?
Problem we are facing now is XP lifecycle is coming to an end. In April, it won't be supported in the least. Even the most critical of security problems in XP, after April 8, 2014 - they aren't getting fixed. Presents a real problem for me if I install XP on such systems now, cause sure as hell come April, someone will be shouting at me that their machine is broken and wouldn't you know, I can't even patch XP if that's the issue. I've taken to installing Ubuntu on such machines and it works just fine for re-purposing older machines.
Annoys me a heck of a lot, because XP is such a tried and true OS - but I can't expect them to support it forever. Considering XP launched in late 2001, and all. If a guy gets 13 years out of an OS, consider it a good investment I suppose, eh.
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Oh, I won't dispute that that's an issue - I'm just arguing on the basis of low-end performance.
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Can you explain what halved your productivity? And what you did to increase your productivity to Windows 7 levels.
I can give you a perfect example that just god dam happen today, my pc had a windows update last night and now my mouse scroll wheel is no longer working, in anything, spent the last hour messing with settings and reading forums for whats happened. Again never had this kind of issue on Win7 it very annoying when you go from a virually problem free OS back to one with so many little issues.
Also one thing I hate is the full screen apps, why!, certain programs is fine but things like just playing music should not need the full screen, it easy to tell it to use another program on the desktop and that is what you have to do for many of the defult apps, becuase the defult one are rubbish and so unproductive!
if you enjoy it then thats great, but so far win8 is defentally not for me.
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And again, we come to this notion that you can't say something which plainly makes no sense (sticking a tablet UI on a desktop OS, positioning tablet UI as the future of desktop PCs) is stupid unless you've actually used it, because there's some kind of mystical property incommunicable in mortal tongues that makes it totally brilliant, and also the emperor isn't naked, you're just not refined enough to see his magnificent threads.
The "emperor isn't naked" is a perfect argument against your logic.
These people who communicated to you that Windows 8 deserves your anger are also saying that the emperor isn't naked.
You chose to believe them without looking for yourself & repeat it to anyone who will listen.
All I'm saying is that anyone who tries Windows 8 with an open mind actually likes it. You can tell anyone who hasn't tried it or goes in with a closed mind, the reasons they come up for hating it are laughable.
I can give you a perfect example that just god dam happen today, my pc had a windows update last night and now my mouse scroll wheel is no longer working
I've had driver updates that have been buggy on all operating systems. Including Linux. Revert each update until it starts working and then report it, or tell Windows to not install that update. Windows 7 & 8 generally use the same drivers, so it might have affected Windows 7 as well.
Also one thing I hate is the full screen apps, why!, certain programs is fine but things like just playing music should not need the full screen, it easy to tell it to use another program on the desktop and that is what you have to do for many of the defult apps, becuase the defult one are rubbish and so unproductive!
Wasn't Media Centre the default in Windows 7 Ultimate? That was pretty crappy, but after you told Windows 7 not to use it then you didn't have to worry about it anymore.
I don't use any full screen apps, but the existence of full screen apps doesn't make me upset. What if they put out a Windows 7 SP2 that allowed the new full screen apps to run, would you hate that too?
I disagree with you. Faster speeds don't mean it stable. Microsoft and their security leaks. How long does it take windows to fix a security leak? A long time. Windows slows down over time. Back doors in windows. Don't get me started. All one needs to know is Command prompt.
I will never own a Mac system. I hate the User-interface. You rent the software on Mac. You don't own it. That info can be found on the User agreement.
Linux is more of being stable and secure verse being the fast operation system out there. Linux when there is security leak. The Linux programmers go and fix it in couple days. Linux saves the environment. It gives old laptops and desktops new life.
MacOS is the least secure, because Apple spent so long saying they were more secure because nobody was targeting them that they weren't prepared for being targeted and it would also look bad on them if they made a big deal out of it.
Linux isn't inherently secure, even when there is a fix then each distribution has to push out the update. You could run a bleeding edge kernel, but you're more likely to have down time due to untested code than an exploit. Linux dominates the web server market, whenever you hear about sites being compromised and user details stolen it's another insecure Linux site. I wouldn't trust a volunteer to write secure code, what are you going to do if they mess up - sack them?
Microsoft are better at fixing security holes than anyone because they have the most practise. They do a lot of testing before putting out updates, so they don't usually rush them out. But there are times when they have.
I know you have to love Linux and bash Microsoft when you're indoctrinated as a tech geek, but it doesn't make sense. I wonder how many people actually believe it and how many are putting on a front to be accepted. I find Windows 7 & 8 run really well on old hardware too, the latest Linux distros have similar hardware requirements.
Google throws up some interesting reading on Linux security
http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/05/critical-linux-vulnerability-imperils-users-even-after-silent-fix/ (http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/05/critical-linux-vulnerability-imperils-users-even-after-silent-fix/)
The only reason for choosing Linux as a desktop operating system is that it's market share is so low you aren't likely to be attacked as people looking for Linux exploits are going after servers. I'd rather go for an operating system that is regularly attacked, because you at least know it's likely to get noticed and fixed (I always install the latest version of software first for the same reason).
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There is some functionality removed from the start screen that I'd like them to add back. I've tried Win 8 and found it less efficient and functional.
Would like to be able to resize the start screen so it doesn't cover the desktop, or access the 'real' desktop context menu, etc. for example.
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All I'm saying is that anyone who tries Windows 8 with an open mind actually likes it. You can tell anyone who hasn't tried it or goes in with a closed mind, the reasons they come up for hating it are laughable.
Actually there are multiple people who have tried it and hated it in this very thread. But hey, as long as you define the terms of the argument as "reasonable, open-minded person = agrees with me" and "doesn't agree with me = unreasonable hater," you automatically win, right? Score!
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Okay, I'll put up with a lot of dubious claims, but this is quite frankly just horseshít.
You made a remark about linux whilst commodorejohn was in the room! Thats like hitting the red-button for him to unload his own horseshít.
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Yeah, you install Ubuntu Micturating Manatee or whatever the new one is on a P3 and then get back to me on how usable it is.
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Ooh look another "My dick is bigger than your dick" thread on amiga.org!
Whoever would have thought it possible?
FFS people. Use and abuse whatever floats your boat but give it a rest with barking orders at others as to what they should or should not be doing.
Light up a blunt/drink a pint/batter a punchbag/write some music/code/gfx or whatever else it is that calms you down and then accept that everyone is different, everyone has different needs and everyone has different ideas about what is "more betterer".
/Me closes browser and goes back to Scribble and my RKM's.
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If we got rid of the threads arguing about OS merits/demerits, this forum basically wouldn't exist.
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What is one of the more annoying things of 8.1 versus 8 is that the old non-'app' version of the Skype client is refusing to run on 8.1. You're stuck using the Skype 'app' which is an atrocity and basically turns your computer in the equivalent of a single tasking MS-DOS machine.
In general the entire *?#@**?#@**?#@**?#@*ing metro interface always gets in your way, it never helps you or makes things easier.
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Ooh look another "My dick is bigger than your dick" thread on amiga.org!
Whoever would have thought it possible?
FFS people. Use and abuse whatever floats your boat but give it a rest with barking orders at others as to what they should or should not be doing.
Light up a blunt/drink a pint/batter a punchbag/write some music/code/gfx or whatever else it is that calms you down and then accept that everyone is different, everyone has different needs and everyone has different ideas about what is "more betterer".
/Me closes browser and goes back to Scribble and my RKM's.
I've marked the orders in red. :biglaugh::biglaugh::biglaugh:
(runs)
*All in fun.
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If we are going to continue the Linux debate:
I don't mind if Linux is bloated. I like the UI. It installs 9/10 times without any trouble.
I run Windows XP with a few third party utilities. Windows 7 is a nice stable platform to play games from.
Windows 8 okay for some, but not for me. It's like having a 15 gigabyte phone OS.
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If we are going to continue the Linux debate:
I don't mind if Linux is bloated. I like the UI. It installs 9/10 times without any trouble.
Fair enough - as long as you're not trying to pretend that it makes sweet wizardly love to old hardware when it really doesn't.
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sweet wizardly love
:roflmao:
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Here are some of my suggestions I'd like MS to add to 8.1 to make it more functional for desktop users.
Yes I agree the 'metro file associations by default' is annoying and it's a hassle to change them all. Not to mention all the privacy and 'metrics' settings you have to opt-out of so that your Win 8 isn't constantly sending data to MS.
1. Resizable start screen, so it doesn't cover the entire desktop.
2. True context menu access from the start screen. Renaming and deleting shortcuts, etc.
3. All Apps sorted in even columns with nesting. Currently All Apps view folders and shortcuts are stacked on top of each other in uneven columns.
4. Nested control panel, network, favorites, recent documents/programs, restart/shutdown, etc. and other removed accessibility features.
5. Metro apps should be able to run in a window on the desktop.
6. Traditional search from the start screen.
7. Fix the new explorer ribbon, networks sidebar, notifications, newly metro-ized dialogue boxes, etc.
8. (superficial) Restore title bar transparency, allow tile color changing from Metro defaults, more display customization, etc.
Live tiles and resizable shortcut tiles isn't a bad idea, but not at the expense of all the other removed functionality.