Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: OlafS3 on July 23, 2013, 10:16:21 AM
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To have a thread more related to general discussions (even if they not change anything and the companies/teams involved do not react on them) I create this thread.
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I disagree with the strategy of a-eon at the moment. As I said I do not think that two high-prized and for most users unaffordable new computers are priority at the moment. When I understand Trevor correctly it would have been possible to produce something cheaper but that would have been competition to Acube (what he wants to avoid). Cooperation is ok but cooperation against the needs and wishes of the customers (and expecially potential customers)?. I hope that they rethink the plans and offer something more affordable.
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But why would you want it? It only has a couple of expansion ports,. The CPU is 2Ghz dual core. That is almost the speed of a netbook.
ARM is becoming the No. 1 platform. They may decide to port to ARM which must be less difficult than x86/x64. It's still 32-bit too.
I also worry that by the time they do anything the boat will have already left and Amiga remain a declining hobby.
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But why would you want it? It only has a couple of expansion ports,. The CPU is 2Ghz dual core. That is almost the speed of a netbook.
ARM is becoming the No. 1 platform. They may decide to port to ARM which must be less difficult than x86/x64. It's still 32-bit too.
I also worry that by the time they do anything the boat will have already left and Amiga remain a declining hobby.
But a ARM or X86 port of AmigaOS is completely out of scope. They want to make money with it, porting would mean a huge investment (time) to do. Hyperion wants to get paid for it, who will do it? Even for Trevor it would propably be too much. Or Hyperion (Ben H.) changes his mind and pays for it. But I have never heared of that they even think about it. And that Trevor pays for new high-end and high-prized PPC hardware does not sound of a change too. So only chance if they would "upgrade" the lower to midrange systems (means better hardware for the money).
On MorphOS team it is different because they are somehow in the middle between AROS and AmigaOS, commercial/closed source but not as much as Hyperion. They will make the shift to ARM/X86/X64 somewhen.
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You are ofcourse free to start a kickstarter to get AOS4.x ported to arm or what ever, but I don't think you will be able to raise the money though.
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You are ofcourse free to start a kickstarter to get AOS4.x ported to arm or what ever, but I don't think you will be able to raise the money though.
I think you are right there. So cheaper hardware would the only chance (if you want to use AmigaOS)
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But a ARM or X86 port of AmigaOS is completely out of scope. They want to make money with it, porting would mean a huge investment (time) to do. Hyperion wants to get paid for it, who will do it? Even for Trevor it would propably be too much. Or Hyperion (Ben H.) changes his mind and pays for it. But I have never heared of that they even think about it. And that Trevor pays for new high-end and high-prized PPC hardware does not sound of a change too. So only chance if they would "upgrade" the lower to midrange systems (means better hardware for the money).
On MorphOS team it is different because they are somehow in the middle between AROS and AmigaOS, commercial/closed source but not as much as Hyperion. They will make the shift to ARM/X86/X64 somewhen.
I ll welcome and buy x86 version of MorphOS. But that is kind of on longer stick then X1000 AMP/SMP etc.
Seems Hyperion will stick with PPC at least until OS grows mature. Which is not bad at all - its the PPC users that will make transition and growth possible, as it is with MorphOS.
People should take their own decisions, and we should welcome it. But this kind of bashing puts A.org to Moo level. :mickeymouse:
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I ll welcome and buy x86 version of MorphOS. But that is kind of on longer stick then X1000 AMP/SMP etc.
Seems Hyperion will stick with PPC at least until OS grows mature. Which is not bad at all - its the PPC users that will make transition and growth possible, as it is with MorphOS.
People should take their own decisions, and we should welcome it. But this kind of bashing puts A.org to Moo level. :mickeymouse:
"Moo level"
still a long way to go :D
I disagree with you there. Not the "PPC User" make transition and growth possible but winning back people from outside for the community (ex-amigans, users and expecially developers)
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The future of AmigaOS is with ARM. Arm is everywhere. Arm is cheap. And Arm doesn't waste giant amounts of electricity like Intel/AMD do.
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"Moo level"
still a long way to go :D
I disagree with you there. Not the "PPC User" make transition and growth possible but winning back people from outside for the community (ex-amigans, users and expecially developers)
Currently PPC users makes it possible until OSs (MorphOS/OS4) are mature enough to go ARM (I prefer it to x86 even there are few ARM desktops - but they could aim tablets and smartphones like Amiga Inc planned).
Best would be to have one such OS and teams united (and it called AmigaOS 5 and hardware AmigaOnes since C-USA killed any hope of any good Amiga computer) or they will compete again just on larger market.
Even some better cooperation in current PPC markets would win more hearts and efforts, but team seems to be just too proud and stabborn.
Overall, no one has a long long term strategy, but everyone does its best in current circumstances.
Wining hearts of all ex Amigans? Hardly ever. Most were gamers. But we actually need a competitive OS in world of just 3 OSs (Win - mac OS X - Linux).
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Currently PPC users makes it possible until OSs (MorphOS/OS4) are mature enough to go ARM (I prefer it to x86 even there are few ARM desktops - but they could aim tablets and smartphones like Amiga Inc planned).
Best would be to have one such OS and teams united (and it called AmigaOS 5 and hardware AmigaOnes since C-USA killed any hope of any good Amiga computer) or they will compete again just on larger market.
Even some better cooperation in current PPC markets would win more hearts and efforts, but team seems to be just too proud and stabborn.
Overall, no one has a long long term strategy, but everyone does its best in current circumstances.
Wining hearts of all ex Amigans? Hardly ever. Most were gamers. But we actually need a competitive OS in world of just 3 OSs (Win - mac OS X - Linux).
All ex-Amigians? Certainly not but would be nice of course :laugh1:
It would be enough to have say 50.000 - 100.000 users again. It is only a fraction of the former community but would be enough for commercial development (to some degree). Even then we would not compete with Windows or Linux but at least the community would be visible again. Being happy to satisfy the interest of a couple of hundred wealthy users brings no future. To support used Macs is at least offering better chances but it will not win the future either. The future can only be supporting new modern standard mass-produced hardware. Custom boards (whatever parts are used) are always much more expensive and only justifyable if they offer a real benefit. Custom for custom sake makes no sense to me.
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@thread
There is no sense is discussing all options concerning h/w or s/w strategy from the Hyperion/Amiga OS4 side.
Too many limitations exist in the stipulated judgment between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion CVBA.
(1)They have clearly stated that they do not want the advice of anyone except their own close circle. This is a fact. Part of the reason is that a firm understanding is needed as to what the lawyers will jump on and what they will not. Anyone outside that circle simply will not have that information at their disposal.
Source (http://www.amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=35809&forum=33&start=160&viewmode=flat&order=0#703022)
(2)see (1)
#6
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@thread
There is no sense is discussing all options concerning h/w or s/w strategy from the Hyperion/Amiga OS4 side.
Too many limitations exist in the stipulated judgment between Amiga Inc. and Hyperion CVBA.
(1)They have clearly stated that they do not want the advice of anyone except their own close circle. This is a fact. Part of the reason is that a firm understanding is needed as to what the lawyers will jump on and what they will not. Anyone outside that circle simply will not have that information at their disposal.
Source (http://www.amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=35809&forum=33&start=160&viewmode=flat&order=0#703022)
(2)see (1)
#6
They should at least hear on their customers...
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I disagree with the strategy of a-eon at the moment.
So just another thread to repeat the same thing for the hundried of time, (beyond) annoying.
So stop caring. You have cheaper OS4 machines from Acube. Second hand Macs with MorphOS or an old x86 machine that is not good enough anymore for Windows with AROS.
I myself won't likely buy an A-eon machine but I don't fill amiga.org with this same old crap.
This is how capitalism works:
- companies decide on a strategy
- consumers decide to buy or not
- If not enough consumers buy, company goes bankrupt.
At the moment AEon seems to have more customers then they can make machines.
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OMG, another useless thread. Olaf, really, who cares that you disagree with A-Eon's strategy? They (A-Eon, ACube, Hyperion, MorphOS-Team, AROS-Devs) do whatever they want* to do. I assume the time when those people/teams cared about you (or "customers") are long ago. Heck, even Commodore gave mostly a "sh*t" about "customers".
*: ...makes some money, fulfills personal dreams, is the most easy to code, is at least not completely boring, has an available coder at hand, makes most fun...whatever.
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I dont usually get involved in this mumbo jumbo, But I feel as though the only
real way forward is the Natami project.
I mean im not really into going forwards, only backwards.(hahaha get it!)
but all you winners who want new hardware,
Natami is the only real LOGICAL choice.
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Natami is dead in the water and that wacky next gen AGA stuff they were planning was silly, at best. Would never have been enough of the boards in users hands to support much of a scene or codebase around it.
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Holy crap olaf. You sound like a broken record. Grow up. and let those wanting to buy an x1000 buy one. And let them have fun with it.
Oh, and since all you talk about is price... why is there still life in aos4 and mos camps? Shouldn't all people have joined the superior aros, since its free?
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Holy crap olaf. You sound like a broken record. Grow up. and let those wanting to buy an x1000 buy one. And let them have fun with it.
Oh, and since all you talk about is price... why is there still life in aos4 and mos camps? Shouldn't all people have joined the superior aros, since its free?
AROS is not superior to MorphOS yet...../
When is AmiWest?
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I disagree with the strategy of a-eon at the moment. As I said I do not think that two high-prized and for most users unaffordable new computers are priority at the moment. When I understand Trevor correctly it would have been possible to produce something cheaper but that would have been competition to Acube (what he wants to avoid). Cooperation is ok but cooperation against the needs and wishes of the customers (and expecially potential customers)?. I hope that they rethink the plans and offer something more affordable.
Well Morphos and Aros do have cheap HW and still they're not getting a lot of new users so why is OS4 any different? At least Trevor do something, something really awesome if you think about it for 1sec, he is a really impressive guy. Kamelito
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Holy crap olaf. You sound like a broken record. Grow up. and let those wanting to buy an x1000 buy one. And let them have fun with it.
Oh, and since all you talk about is price... why is there still life in aos4 and mos camps? Shouldn't all people have joined the superior aros, since its free?
I am not in the "about buying X1000" thread so I can disagree or not. Regarding price... I talked to a number of former known developers (mostly AmigaOS) who left because of price. And besides I do not believe that the existing users will change their minds (whatever one of the OS offers and how superior it might be). There was no mass movement after MorphOS 3.2, there will be no new users after the next big update of AmigaOS (whenever it will be). Noone outside cares for "Amiga" anymore (it is only about number of users that means potential buyers). I am grown up, thanx, how about you? How do you think people will look at you when you try to sell your "Super"-"AmigaOS", the "true Amiga-successor" how some call it and the "only Amiga"
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Last time I checked this is a user forum where personal opinions can be freely expressed, as long as it's not libel and/or using language and demeanor that is malicious in intent.
If you feel this latest thread is yet another in a long line of "waste of time" discussions about something that cannot be changed; it is your prerogative to think that way but you should not really be upset because no one is forcing you to read them.
Also, so far no one in this thread has advised against or stopped anyone from purchasing a x1000. By all means, everyone buy as many x1000's as you can afford, have one at home and one at the holiday house. No one is questioning how you choose to spend your money.
I agree with OlafS3 in having this discussion in this forum. It's not like there's much else to talk about. You want to block your ears and go LA LA LA LA LA NOT LISTENING, again that's your prerogative.
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I do agree that Arm is the way forward for technology companies. I don't know how long it would take them to develop a motherboard, case, keyboard, mouse, and software development. On Software part I believe that things need to work. Games to keep one happy. For the business users software that they can get their work done fast and simple.
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You'd have a heck of a job getting an ARM as powerful an SOC as the ones on the PowerPC boards we have now. It's a fantastic embedded processor but it's not designed for the same systems as PowerPC.
Re the thread:
I think Olaf has every right to argue about the X1000 and OS4 in this thread. This is where it should be.
Contrary to popular belief, most OS4 users are willing to discuss OS4, their NG Amigas in a constructive way. We're not just sheep going for the brand name, we just happen to prefer OS 4 (and what's so wrong with that?). If Olaf thinks that AmigaOS is going the wrong way, then as this is a discussion forum about Amigas, what better place for it?
What OS4 users are sick of is incorrect information being thrown about the place (like incomplete drivers. For goodness' sake - so you have to use an ethernet card for now? So what? It's hardly a show-stopper! And as for the 3D graphics, you can happily use a non HD Radeon for now. It's really not an issue - ask anyone who actually owns one). We're also sick of being lumped into one group of people who apparently don't know what they're talking about, and who are obviously stupid because they didn't choose whatever flavour someone else did.
Maybe - just maybe - this can be a thread where things start to change for the better, where AmigaOS4 users can respect and be respected by the people who believe for whatever reason that AmigaOS 4 isn't for them.
Use this thread to discuss the pro's and con's of the NG Amigas, NOT threads announcing the arrival of more stock (which is emphatically not the place for such discussion).
If we can get people to respect each other's choices on this forum, more people will come back and maybe it'll stop being such a hostile place for people who happen to use AmigaOS 4.
End of preaching :)
(I count myself an AmigaOS 4 user for the purpose of simplifying this thread, though I use others too)
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I don't know why nobody made AmigaOS for Xbox 360, it is PowerPC afterall! And very common hardware.
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Maybe - just maybe - this can be a thread where things start to change for the better, where AmigaOS4 users can respect and be respected by the people who believe for whatever reason that AmigaOS 4 isn't for them.
OK, here goes:
a) The stated development direction of AmigaOS (Gallium, SM... er multicore support, etc) will require a huge amount of work, ie money, to accomplish.
b) The current strategy of producing custom hardware also requires huge amounts of money to accomplish.
To buy one of the top-end AmigaOS systems costs ~£2200 (iirc). Of this large investment, most of it is going into hardware development (paying back development costs for current generation, providing development funds for future ones). Only the AmigaOS license fee (amount unknown) goes to Hyperion for OS development, plus any further amounts that A-Eon chooses to invest seperately into Hyperion/3rd party development.
If A-Eon sells 500 boards at £2200, of that £1,100,000 spent by the community only around £50,000 (at £100 per OEM copy) goes to Hyperion for software development.
That's not enough to pay for Gallium, multiprocessing, etc.
It doesn't increase the user base.
It taxes out a lot of money from those Amigans willing to pay, but only diverts a small amount of it to developing the OS.
Of the £2200 spent, only a very small portion is invested into advance the OS - the rest is spent in hardware development costs.
Once the current generation of hardware is done, that 'investment' is without any value, and the whole spending cycle starts again.
I have all the respect in the world for Trevor and a great deal of sympathy (having been in a similar situation this year where the hard work offered voluntarily was met with suspicion, agression and constant hectoring), and support A-Eon's business aspirations for hardware development.
I just don't think Hyperion/AmigaOS have any realistic strategy to keep up without finding a way to further milk the community in advance of any of the promised advanced features. Not to mention failing to learn the lessons of the past wrt bull****ting about timescales and features.
Sadly, this seems to be quietly not mentioned when any new blood attracted to the X1000.
An example of this is the recent thread on Amigaworld.
A user asked "what is the current status of AOS4 SMP?"
I replied "It (AmigaOS 4.1 update 6 + Amiupdates to date) doesn't have any support for using multiple cores."
SSolie states that "That is incorrect"
wtf?
I reiterate my claim: If AmigaOS 4.2 is released before the end orf 2014 (including Gallium, OpenGL and SMP as stated for many years now) then I'll eat my socks (or possibly a suitably shaped and decorated fruitcake), acknowledge my error, wave a boing-ball flag, and post the vid on Youtube. Hell, I'll even post some dancing bananas.
If we can get people to respect each other's choices on this forum, more people will come back and maybe it'll stop being such a hostile place for people who happen to use AmigaOS 4.
+1
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The suspicion might come from (one) hoax system, disappointing projects that ended up with bugs, several abandoned projects (most of those because the company had no money).
I personally never thought they wouldn't deliver, but I was sure they wouldn't keep even close to the planned release (hardware and software). It might be different with the next release.
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@Boot_WB
Thank you. That's exactly the sort of thing we need. Healthy discussion - not bitter sniping and carping.
I completely understand what you mean about the price of the X1000, but I think you misunderstand the reason for its existence.
Yes, it exists to help AmigaOS develop by feeding it cash via sales, but that's not the real issue. The real issue is simply one of market forces.
There is a market for the X1000. This has been proven by its success, and the repeated production runs. That's what it's sold.
It also has the benefit that because it's a very powerful (for an Amiga) machine, productivity of users developing on it will go up slightly. Not a lot, but when you're recompiling MAME for the 10th time, believe me it helps!
It's unfortunate that there's not more money from sales of the X1000 going into the OS4 development, but that wasn't really the purpose.
As concerns multi-processing, there are the foundations of multi-processor code in 4.1.6, but no - not really multi-processing yet. I think there may be beta testing going on, but that's really a 4.2 thing I think.
If AmigaOS 4.2 does get released by the end of 2014, I'll quote you on this. :)
And again - thanks for the post. It's good to have healthy discussions, and criticism.
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You'd have a heck of a job getting an ARM as powerful an SOC as the ones on the PowerPC boards we have now. It's a fantastic embedded processor but it's not designed for the same systems as PowerPC.
Re the thread:
I think Olaf has every right to argue about the X1000 and OS4 in this thread. This is where it should be.
Contrary to popular belief, most OS4 users are willing to discuss OS4, their NG Amigas in a constructive way. We're not just sheep going for the brand name, we just happen to prefer OS 4 (and what's so wrong with that?). If Olaf thinks that AmigaOS is going the wrong way, then as this is a discussion forum about Amigas, what better place for it?
What OS4 users are sick of is incorrect information being thrown about the place (like incomplete drivers. For goodness' sake - so you have to use an ethernet card for now? So what? It's hardly a show-stopper! And as for the 3D graphics, you can happily use a non HD Radeon for now. It's really not an issue - ask anyone who actually owns one). We're also sick of being lumped into one group of people who apparently don't know what they're talking about, and who are obviously stupid because they didn't choose whatever flavour someone else did.
Maybe - just maybe - this can be a thread where things start to change for the better, where AmigaOS4 users can respect and be respected by the people who believe for whatever reason that AmigaOS 4 isn't for them.
Use this thread to discuss the pro's and con's of the NG Amigas, NOT threads announcing the arrival of more stock (which is emphatically not the place for such discussion).
If we can get people to respect each other's choices on this forum, more people will come back and maybe it'll stop being such a hostile place for people who happen to use AmigaOS 4.
End of preaching :)
(I count myself an AmigaOS 4 user for the purpose of simplifying this thread, though I use others too)
+1
it should be possible for "grown ups" to discuss (and even disagree) without all the time using "stereotypes" and start to bash each other when you talk about facts and not insult others and their choices.
@Mrs_Beanbag
I think I read a discussion about that already (here or on amigaworld I cannot remember). I think there are legal problems and (how always) who will pay it? Hyperion wants every port be financed by the hardware producer, so no pay no port (in opposite to f.e. MorphOS who do a update and then request money after being done).
@Boot_WB
"SMP" is a wide area with lots of definitions and concepts. I read a discussion on aros-exec on it (I think it was called AMP or ASMP I cannot remember) that could be used without breaking compatibility (I think it is similar to PowerUP). The disadvantage is that only special adapted software benefits from it. Other concepts would create lots of problems with existing software. So if Hyperion really implements "SMP" with a concept that every software benefits of (without adaption) then I will make a deep bow to them. But I do not believe that.
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@ElPolloDiablo
Not sure what you mean by "hoax system"...? Do you mean the netbook? That wasn't their fault, they were caught between a rock and a hard place there (the price went up massively so if they delivered, they got yelled at and nobody would buy it because of the price - if they didn't deliver, they got yelled at and nobody could buy it, but at least they wouldn't go bankrupt).
I know what you mean about due dates - they're never accurate. That's not a Hyperion thing, that's a general industry thing. That's why these days they just say "When it's done" (sensible).
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@Boot_WB
Thank you. That's exactly the sort of thing we need. Healthy discussion - not bitter sniping and carping.
I completely understand what you mean about the price of the X1000, but I think you misunderstand the reason for its existence.
Yes, it exists to help AmigaOS develop by feeding it cash via sales, but that's not the real issue. The real issue is simply one of market forces.
There is a market for the X1000. This has been proven by its success, and the repeated production runs. That's what it's sold.
It also has the benefit that because it's a very powerful (for an Amiga) machine, productivity of users developing on it will go up slightly. Not a lot, but when you're recompiling MAME for the 10th time, believe me it helps!
It's unfortunate that there's not more money from sales of the X1000 going into the OS4 development, but that wasn't really the purpose.
As concerns multi-processing, there are the foundations of multi-processor code in 4.1.6, but no - not really multi-processing yet. I think there may be beta testing going on, but that's really a 4.2 thing I think.
If AmigaOS 4.2 does get released by the end of 2014, I'll quote you on this. :)
And again - thanks for the post. It's good to have healthy discussions, and criticism.
I understood Trevor when he started the X1000 project (he wanted to create a super geek AmigaOS system for his personal pleasure). I still think that the time of "custom hardware" is long over but to a certain degree I understand his motivation. I do not understand his motivation for the two new systems he is now doing. One is replacing X1000 and (as I understand it) will be similar priced as the X1000. So all people who think X1000 is too expensive for them and the Acube hardware too weak will be very propably disappointed. New users from outside? No chance. All is left is the existing AmigaOS community but those who can afford (and were willing to) already own a X1000. Perhaps some will buy everything what is offered at any price but develop new hardware for such a small wealthy group? What sense make it? To offer new cheap options and a mobile solution might have made sense but this? I do not understand him... He will not stop it now because there is already money invested in the project but it is very strange to me.
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I understood Trevor when he started the X1000 project (he wanted to create a super geek AmigaOS system for his personal pleasure). I still think that the time of "custom hardware" is long over but to a certain degree I understand his motivation. I do not understand his motivation for the two new systems he is now doing. One is replacing X1000 and (as I understand it) will be similar priced as the X1000. So all people who think X1000 is too expensive for them and the Acube hardware too weak will be very propably disappointed. New users from outside? No chance. All is left is the existing AmigaOS community but those who can afford (and were willing to) already own a X1000. Perhaps some will buy everything what is offered at any price but develop new hardware for such a small wealthy group? What sense make it? To offer new cheap options and a mobile solution might have made sense but this? I do not understand him... He will not stop it now because there is already money invested in the project but it is very strange to me.
My understanding is that he wants to concentrate on the higher end of the market, leaving Acube to do the lower end. I think that's a perfectly reasonable business plan.
The aim of the Cyrus is obvious - to replace the X1000. As the PA6T is so elusive and expensive, he needs a replacement - that's what the Cyrus is.
As for pricing, though - honestly nobody knows the pricing yet. We've heard vague suggestions and possibilities but when it comes down to it everybody here knows the same amount - i.e. nothing. A heck of a lot can change between now and when the Cyrus hits the market. I don't think it's fair to attack anyone on what the price might be.
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@Mrs_Beanbag
I think I read a discussion about that already (here or on amigaworld I cannot remember). I think there are legal problems and (how always) who will pay it? Hyperion wants every port be financed by the hardware producer, so no pay no port (in opposite to f.e. MorphOS who do a update and then request money after being done).
Well I don't really understand any of Hyperion's business decisions but it seems like the perfect platform (and already existing).
Any reason not to port AROS to it?
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Well I don't really understand any of Hyperion's business decisions but it seems like the perfect platform (and already existing).
Any reason not to port AROS to it?
You must ask Jason for it. He is maintaining the PPC branch. And of course you need the drivers for it (I have no clue how the hardware looks like, what graphic chip is used and so on). If drivers are available it might be possible.
At the moment most priority is on the ARM branch to get cheap devices.
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If you feel this latest thread is yet another in a long line of "waste of time" discussions about something that cannot be changed; it is your prerogative to think that way but you should not really be upset because no one is forcing you to read them.
I could agree if the thread was properly named as "Another OS4 bashing attempt" or "For those who have been living under a rock: I don't like AEon's strategy".
I think Olaf has every right to argue about the X1000 and OS4 in this thread. This is where it should be.
Contrary to popular belief, most OS4 users are willing to discuss OS4, their NG Amigas in a constructive way.
Problem is that currently any constructive OS4 discussion is almost impossible on aorg as a handful of posters fill all these threads with how wrong the OS4 strategy is. I would be very happy if this thread could in the end change that situation. Reason I still read OS4 threads is just in the hope for once an actual discussion could take place and not a repetition of the theme of the cost of OS4 hardware; or how evil Ben Hermans is; or how much better MOS is; ...
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Some people are claiming Hyperion should follow the same strategy as the MorphOS team and port OS4 to Macs. I feel it is just good that Hyperion and MorphOS team have different strategies so people who like new hardware can choose the OS4 route, the ones who don't mind running an Amiga OS on second hand and cheaper hardware can go the MOS route (or even AROS).
If both teams would follow the same strategy I think the direct competition would be more harmful than advantageous in such a small community.
Or is there something the Mac with MOS users are missing ?
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Some people are claiming Hyperion should follow the same strategy as the MorphOS team and port OS4 to Macs. I feel it is just good that Hyperion and MorphOS team have different strategies so people who like new hardware can choose the OS4 route, the ones who don't mind running an Amiga OS on second hand and cheaper hardware can go the MOS route (or even AROS).
If both teams would follow the same strategy I think the direct competition would be more harmful than advantageous in such a small community.
Or is there something the Mac with MOS users are missing ?
i have sent the link to this thread to Trevor in the hope that he explains his ideas. Perhaps we (or at least I) just do not understand the big picture or concept.
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i have sent the link to this thread to Trevor in the hope that he explains his ideas. Perhaps we (or at least I) just do not understand the big picture or concept.
I'm sure Trevor would be more than happy for other players to enter this booming market with more enlightened business strategies for a product that 'aint got a speakable market. "Bring on the competition" I'm sure he'd agree.
Let me know when you've got your business plan together Olaf. Post it here, we'll all have a read of it, and I'm sure we'll all be happy to help sponsor your strategy.
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I think I read a discussion about that already (here or on amigaworld I cannot remember). I think there are legal problems and (how always) who will pay it? Hyperion wants every port be financed by the hardware producer, so no pay no port (in opposite to f.e. MorphOS who do a update and then request money after being done).
Hyperion can release AmigaOS4 for whatever platform they want after winning the trial. E.g.: nobody paid for the Pegasos2 and Classic ports.
They probably killed Moana because they couldn't have huge profits on each unit like they do selling boards with embedded cpus (slower than the ones used 10 years ago) for premium prices. They didn't note that selling 3000 units for 100€ produces both more users and profits than selling 100 units for 3000€ (specially if you discount the real costs of producing the hardware). The difference is that if 1% of that buyers are developers you end up with 30 developers instead of only one, thus increasing the software base and the value of the platform.
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I'm sure Trevor would be more than happy for other players to enter this booming market with more enlightened business strategies for a product that 'aint got a speakable market. "Bring on the competition" I'm sure he'd agree.
Let me know when you've got your business plan together Olaf. Post it here, we'll all have a read of it, and I'm sure we'll all be happy to help sponsor your strategy.
Thank you. You will be the first I will inform :-)
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They probably killed Moana because they couldn't have huge profits on each unit like they do selling boards with embedded cpus (slower than the ones used 10 years ago) for premium prices. They didn't note that selling 3000 units for 100€ produces both more users and profits than selling 100 units for 3000€ (specially if you discount the real costs of producing the hardware). The difference is that if 1% of that buyers are developers you end up with 30 developers instead of only one, thus increasing the software base and the value of the platform.
I'm fairly certain they killed Moana because it would have destroyed the market for new hardware, and would have limited us to old PowerMacs.
It's as a result of their killing Moana that we have machines that support PCI-E, multi-core, USB 3 etc. (even if we can't use their potential fully yet, we have the hardware for it).
If Moana was still around, we'd all be strongly limited to small Macs instead of the good, expandable hardware we have now.
Supporting Moana would have been tying AmigaOS 4 down to the past, and that's what they're trying to get away from.
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I'm fairly certain they killed Moana because it would have destroyed the market for new hardware, and would have limited us to old PowerMacs.
It's as a result of their killing Moana that we have machines that support PCI-E, multi-core, USB 3 etc. (even if we can't use their potential fully yet, we have the hardware for it).
If Moana was still around, we'd all be strongly limited to small Macs instead of the good, expandable hardware we have now.
Supporting Moana would have been tying AmigaOS 4 down to the past, and that's what they're trying to get away from.
Someone said (when I remember right) connecting the OS to exotic hardware is a kind of natural copy-protection (in opposite to what could have happened with Moana). And I do not know how fast and compatible emulated environments are. On the other hand more user and sold licenses (even if some would be illegal copies)
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Someone said (when I remember right) connecting the OS to exotic hardware is a kind of natural copy-protection (in opposite to what could have happened with Moana). And I do not know how fast and compatible emulated environments are. On the other hand more user and sold licenses (even if some would be illegal copies)
Don`t forget Moana was a stop gap solution BEFORE SAM 440 arrived at times of OS 4.0 Classic, and that it would harm ACube too.
Once in wagon with hardware partners, no matter how
On natural protection of rare hardware, I see Apple still takes the same logic when limiting its MacOS X only to its hardware, even its x86.
While counting on wild numbers seems good, as well as cheap hardware, you must understand that interest in Amiga like OSs is also just on old warriors and holds no meaning to overall world. Also, MorphOS team has reverted to PPC Macs when left by Genesi as only route.
Preferably flourishing solution would be building a new Acube system as middle, while lowering price of SAM 460 Lite and having 3D drivers for RadeonHD. That would be quite reasonable, fast and a bit modern OS4 system.
Surely, as indicated, MorphOS support for all Macs have gradually brought interest and grownth, but not beyond some 1500-2000 licences. So its a small bunch of people after all.
And nothing brings developers per se, except bounties (money). I don`t see way much development on AROS file depots (not at least more then on Morph and OS4 and file depots) even its free and can be run on almost anything. So there is no easy way out.
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Don`t forget Moana was a stop gap solution BEFORE SAM 440 arrived at times of OS 4.0 Classic, and that it would harm ACube too.
Once in wagon with hardware partners, no matter how
On natural protection of rare hardware, I see Apple still takes the same logic when limiting its MacOS X only to its hardware, even its x86.
While counting on wild numbers seems good, as well as cheap hardware, you must understand that interest in Amiga like OSs is also just on old warriors and holds no meaning to overall world. Also, MorphOS team has reverted to PPC Macs when left by Genesi as only route.
Preferably flourishing solution would be building a new Acube system as middle, while lowering price of SAM 460 Lite and having 3D drivers for RadeonHD. That would be quite reasonable, fast and a bit modern OS4 system.
Surely, as indicated, MorphOS support for all Macs have gradually brought interest and grownth, but not beyond some 1500-2000 licences. So its a small bunch of people after all.
And nothing brings developers per se, except bounties (money). I don`t see way much development on AROS file depots (not at least more then on Morph and OS4 and file depots) even its free and can be run on almost anything. So there is no easy way out.
Application development is a problem because you need much more users to justify commercial applications. There is only the chance to get some ports or have idealists doing it without too high expectations. For games there is a bigger chance if at least opensource 3D engines are ported because these are used nowadays for many indy games. I am also looking forward to see Antyriad Gx engine on AROS. Another idea is to get more tools support for Amiga game development (and thus making it more professional). The idea is to use professional tools from Windows/Linux to create level design, graphic, sound and so on and use it for Amiga game development. Example from someone is the developer who is creating a Hollywood plugin to use graphics from his tool. So a lot of things can be done.
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Last generation of G5 include PCIe (not that it matters much) and some models 4 cpu cores.
As long as "new hardware" doesn't provide the same performance as nearly 10 year old hardware I don't see the point in "new hardware". If I was concerned about that I would buy a brand new Efika fron Directron but I prefer more performance.
Surely, as indicated, MorphOS support for all Macs have gradually brought interest and grownth, but not beyond some 1500-2000 licences. So its a small bunch of people after all.
That would still be 10 times more than the number of x1000 sold and zero investment in hardware development costs. In case you haven't noticed yet "Amiga" word could increase the interest so you could expect more sales.
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I don't know why nobody made AmigaOS for Xbox 360, it is PowerPC afterall! And very common hardware.
I think PS3 would be better! It's got the OtherOS, well, at least mine still has.
If someone makes a port, I'll test it.
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Last generation of G5 include PCIe (not that it matters much) and some models 4 cpu cores.
True - but that's where it ends. Once you've got there there's nowhere to go.
As long as "new hardware" doesn't provide the same performance as nearly 10 year old hardware I don't see the point in "new hardware". If I was concerned about that I would buy a brand new Efika fron Directron but I prefer more performance.
Effectively we're playing catch-up in real performance, yes... but you've got to catch up before you can overtake something. At the current rate of progress, Cyrus will be effectively up to or surpassing the G5 (which I believe isn't very fast per MHz, and rather inefficient), which means that whatever comes next should be better than the opt-of-the-range PowerPC Mac.
As a small company, A-Eon have a large disadvantage for up-to-G5 levels (as Apple had a million times the R&D budget of A-Eon), but after that Apple stopped so it's all forward.
That would still be 10 times more than the number of x1000 sold and zero investment in hardware development costs. In case you haven't noticed yet "Amiga" word could increase the interest so you could expect more sales.
The x1000 isn't the only Amiga being sold, though - nobody expects it to outsell the low-end machines.
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True - but that's where it ends. Once you've got there there's nowhere to go.
Funny to hear that taking into account that PA*Semi cpus are dead end.
The point of releasing AmigaOS for G5 would be gaining time to release it for x86-64.
Effectively we're playing catch-up in real performance, yes... but you've got to catch up before you can overtake something. At the current rate of progress, Cyrus will be effectively up to or surpassing the G5 (which I believe isn't very fast per MHz, and rather inefficient), which means that whatever comes next should be better than the opt-of-the-range PowerPC Mac.
I heard that before with x1000 PA Semi cpu and all in all it's slower than a G5 at the same frequency.
As a small company, A-Eon have a large disadvantage for up-to-G5 levels (as Apple had a million times the R&D budget of A-Eon), but after that Apple stopped so it's all forward.
In case you didn't notice we are talking about machines released 8-10 years ago, not even about competing with nowadays hardware
If you want to look forward to the future the final solution is switching cpu architecture instead of relying on low end embedded cpus. Freescale has always been poor acomplishing their roadmaps.
The x1000 isn't the only Amiga being sold, though - nobody expects it to outsell the low-end machines.
Care to explain how selling OS4 for powerbook g4 would decrease the number of x1000 sold?
Sams have performance similar (or worse) than antique Pegasos boards sold almost 10 years ago in our little market (and higher price, something pretty sad).
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Funny to hear that taking into account that PA*Semi cpus are dead end.
Yes, hence Cyrus using Freescale. But without the X1000 development of things like multi-processor support would be years behind what it is today.
The point of releasing AmigaOS for G5 would be gaining time to release it for x86-64.
Only if AmigaOS is going to get ported to x64 - and the jury's still out on that one.
I heard that before with x1000 PA Semi cpu and all in all it's slower than a G5 at the same frequency.
Maybe, I'm not sure to be honest. But I do know that the PA6T is more or less equivalent power-wise but does it at a fraction of the power consumption. I believe also the memory bus is faster on the PA6T but I could be wrong there.
In case you didn't notice we are talking about machines released 8-10 years ago, not even about competing with nowadays hardware
As I said - the Amiga is playing catch up to the Mac. It's not surprising when you consider the size of Apple compared to the size of A-Eon. Apple could go to Freescale and ask for 100,000 G5s. A-Eon can't. It's a whole different ball-game when you're small company.
If you want to look forward to the future the final solution is switching cpu architecture instead of relying on low end embedded cpus. Freescale has always been poor acomplishing their roadmaps.
I see where you're coming from, but switching architecture just isn't practical. For one thing, I'm not certain they legally can switch architecture, and even if they did they'd need to do a heck of a lot of work (and who's going to pay for that?) AND all the OS4 software would need to be re-compiled.
Care to explain how selling OS4 for powerbook g4 would decrease the number of x1000 sold?
Easy. There wouldn't be an X1000. If you want proof of that just look at the amount of new hardware that's been made for MorphOS since the Pegasos II.
Sams have performance similar (or worse) than antique Pegasos boards sold almost 10 years ago in our little market (and higher price, something pretty sad).
You can get a brand new Sam440 flex motherboard for 667MHz for 270 Euros, that's cheaper than the Peg II was isn't it? I believe launch price for the Peg-II was 299 Euros for the G3 (which is slower at 600MHz, but not far off the same) or 499 Euros for the G4.
You have to remember, though, that the availability of G3 and G4 CPUs back then was way higher than the availability of PPC SOC CPUs these days, so it's understandable there will be a difference.
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Funny to hear that taking into account that PA*Semi cpus are dead end.
Yes they are. We exhausted almost only stock of them for X1000 at heavy price.
But its interesting CPU arhitecture, somewhat kind of laptop version of G5 with some enhancements.
Sadly it never lived beyond 1.8Ghz and two cores, because Apple was not interested. If it lived
its full frequency range and up to 16 cores (this one was lowest model) it might have better name.
But yet X1000 is and will be only desktop machine to ever use it.
The point of releasing AmigaOS for G5 would be gaining time to release it for x86-64.
There are no current G5 hardware avail at all (as well as G4) so Freescale is natural choice. Plans you speak of are MorphOS plans, not AmigaOS 4 plans - which is OS 4.2 and X2000/4000 as X1000 replacement board.
I heard that before with x1000 PA Semi cpu and all in all it's slower than a G5 at the same frequency.
Yes,that is true, CPU performs about G4 level performance, just at higher clock + Altivec but with faster memory, disk speed, PCI-E and second core. Once all its abilities are used it will surely outperform G4, in some aspects like memory and disk speed as well as GFX cards you can put to it, it might be better then G5 Mac. We`ll post some Linux test once I get the machine, and everyone will be free to compare it to Linux results on G5.
In case you didn't notice we are talking about machines released 8-10 years ago, not even about competing with nowadays hardware
Thats normal as we are stuck in Amiga world.
If you want to look forward to the future the final solution is switching cpu architecture instead of relying on low end embedded cpus. Freescale has always been poor acomplishing their roadmaps.
Ah, now we spit on beloved Motorola continuation. Well ,it wasn`t the PPC leader, but kind of like them more then AMCC CPU`s Acube has chosen.
Care to explain how selling OS4 for powerbook g4 would decrease the number of x1000 sold?
While it would make AmigaOne laptop (as it makes MorphOS laptop) there would be no room for A-EON systems.
[QUOTESams have performance similar (or worse) than antique Pegasos boards sold almost 10 years ago in our little market (and higher price, something pretty sad).][/QUOTE]
G4 Mac, AmigaOne or Mac outperfor SAM 460, but since it has faster RAM, disk speed and PCI-E GFX it might at least offer comparable overall performance.
We have very few choices in little market, but having some choice is better to none. I well remember dark ages when there was AmigaOS 4.0 out with no hardware to get to run it.
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Here's my analysis:
Every new business playing in an existing market, or creating a new market, and the Distribution of Innovation follow the same curve. They all invariably face what is referred to as The Chasm; A point at which the ideology and the business practices that got it off the ground need to change in order to gain a firm foothold for continued growth. This is also sometimes referred to as The Tipping Point.
(http://www.innthink.com/images/amiga-market.png)
The Hi-Toro guys got past The Chasm by having Commodore acquire them.
For Escom it made sense to buy into the Amiga market even though the Amiga business was flawed. Through it's wholly owned subsidiary Amiga Technologies they had their own plans to change this. Alas Escom had its own troubles and eventually went belly-up.
Escom/Amiga Technologies were continuing an existing business with an existing line of products so there was no Chasm to face.
Gateway also no doubt considered the deal they got was a good one. A diminished but still substantial Amiga market mostly carried by the 3rd parties and the loyal community, and a business that had some nice IP that would fit into their Multimedia strategy. Piggy-backing on top of the Amiga market time meant that they would not need to face the Chasm, or at least when they did it would be easy to traverse as they are not starting from the ground. In the late '90s you could still sell the Amiga as a turn-key business.
This brings me to today and the issues I have with A-Eon's strategy or, dare I say, the apparent lack there of.
Unfortunately things are not so simple for A-Eon. Most of the 3rd parties are gone, most of the development community is gone and therefore most of the users are gone. The market has also fragmented itself with the rise of MorphOS and AROS.
All the signals they have been sending out since their inception is that of a business that believes it is building atop an existing market and therefore can avoid The Chasm. In reality, A-Eon are starting from the ground and are building up a new business and will inevitably face The Chasm. What concerns me is that there is nothing in their displayed behaviour, both direct and indirect, that leads me to believe that they will be able to traverse it. A couple of thousand Amiga loyalists with large sums of discretionary income may get them up to The Chasm, but it's going to take a lot more than that, even if it just modest growth.
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@Boot_WB
Thank you. That's exactly the sort of thing we need. Healthy discussion - not bitter sniping and carping.
\o/ It is possible!
Choosing a suitable place helps a lot (ie not within a 'Good news' hardware announcement thread - I've made that mistake myself in the past, and it's understandable that criticism/discussion isn't kindly received at that point. It's the forum equivalent of the morose guy at someone's 40th Birthday party saying "It's all donwnhill from here..."
I completely understand what you mean about the price of the X1000, but I think you misunderstand the reason for its existence.
Yes, it exists to help AmigaOS develop by feeding it cash via sales, but that's not the real issue. The real issue is simply one of market forces.
There is a market for the X1000. This has been proven by its success, and the repeated production runs. That's what it's sold.
It also has the benefit that because it's a very powerful (for an Amiga) machine, productivity of users developing on it will go up slightly. Not a lot, but when you're recompiling MAME for the 10th time, believe me it helps!
And in that sense it's a complete success. I do take my hat off to Trevor for perservering through what sounds like an agonising set of hardware revisions with costs spiralling (hence the increased sales price and delayed release vs initial plans).
It's unfortunate that there's not more money from sales of the X1000 going into the OS4 development, but that wasn't really the purpose.
If its purpose was simply 'to exist' as the top AmigaOne model, then again it has succeeded. The fact that this was the vehicle of the MAP, and Hyperion themselves chose the multicore hardware, suggests that Hyperions expected to develop the OS alongside the hardware to utilise this.
As concerns multi-processing, there are the foundations of multi-processor code in 4.1.6, but no - not really multi-processing yet. I think there may be beta testing going on, but that's really a 4.2 thing I think.
I'd love to see 4.2 come out with a good multiprocessor implementation (Hell, even offloading HD video decoding to a second CPU would be cool), OpenGL, Gallium, etc - but from Hyperion's track record on announcements that don't pan out, or are just never mentioned again, or turn out to be cripplingly slow, or years later than suggested (this is consistent behaviour over a decade) - I just don't trust them to deliver even as a bystander, and I'm most certainly not going to hand over money on the 'gentlemanly understanding' that seems to somehow exist between Hyperion and their customers atm.
If AmigaOS 4.2 does get released by the end of 2014, I'll quote you on this. :)
Please do. :-) I love fruit cake, and it's be a fun video to make.
EDIT: Just to be claer about timescales, you'll have to allow me a few days lead-time to prepare - the dried fruit needs soaking for at least 48 hours in advance of cake-making. :-)
And again - thanks for the post. It's good to have healthy discussions, and criticism.
Thanks for the constructive engagement - it's nice to be able to discuss things without being labelled a troll, and interesting to gain insight into the 'happy customer's interpretation.
For me (not sure about others) I think I stopped seeing Hyperion/AmigaOS as a desirable option for my own use once I could no longer bring myself to swallow any doubts over ambguous statemtents and 'have faith' in their chosen direction. If they did ever release a product that is desirable in price point and features I'd consider buying it. But that would have to be features included in the current release, not 'promised' for a future one.
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Here's my analysis:
Every new business playing in an existing market, or creating a new market, and the Distribution of Innovation follow the same curve. They all invariably face what is referred to as The Chasm;
Isn't it amazing how if you squint, and make a line of best-fit, you can retrofit most any business theory onto past data (and especially future trend projections!).
Such theories can be a useful (if very crude) tool to promote discussion in boardrooms full of out-of-touch executives. The rest of the world outside the administrative reality-distortion field usually recognises these inane attempts to define the blatantly obvious as a 'theory' for what they are.
"Companies face challenges and have to adapt to engage with a changing market, changing opportunities and changing threats as time goes on."
No graph needed for that though, so wouldn't go down as well during a Powerpoint presentation. If you start proletysing about Sales Funnels I'm getting my coat. :-)
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@Boot_WB
I think it sounds more like you're mistrusting of Hyperion than that you have a real problem with OS 4.
I can understand that, to be honest. From an outsider's point of view, there have been problems, to be sure.
As a developer who spends a fair amount of time reading Autodocs, though, I can see some of the changes that have been made that nobody else sees. I get to see some of the reasoning behind their choices. I get to see the progress that has been made towards things like multi-processing.
As a small business owner, I understand the problems that they face in the real world. What I see them do mirrors my own experiences.
I guess, therefore, I have a somewhat more charitable attitude towards Hyperion.
What I'm really hoping for now is that 4.2 comes out with working multi-processor support, and proper 3D support. It's quite do-able, and it's the only way to prove people wrong.
Until then, though, any amount of talk is worth nothing. But don't let that get in the way of healthy, mature discussion :)