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Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: ElPolloDiabl on June 11, 2013, 08:06:01 AM
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Hi,
Which would you like have. A follow on AAA chipset A5000/A3500 and A1400. A boxer system (A4000 with PCI slots).
Or stick with FPGA path, plus all the extras like USB and ethernet.
I could add redo Amithlon, instead just select other.
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I voted FPGA, since its already there, thinking of the minimig and chameleon 64.
The FPGAarcade is close to being finished, and once the daugther board is finished, then that combo would have everything we need.
Then there is the MiST and the TiNA projects.
Sure it would be nice with some PCI-e/pci extensions as well, but one thing at the time.
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FPGA 060 @ 100-500MHz+ based, PCI, AGP(?), Not fussed about PCI-E, 512MB+ RAM, NIC, USB, RTG, WPA2 wireless,PCMCIA/PCARD in micro atx size would be me.
Maybe PowerPC... AmigaOS 4.. but can live without.
Don't even need a case, I'd sell my classic A1200 for that :-)
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FPGA for the win! Why reinvent the wheel when there is a nice, up to date practical solution? Couldn't ask for more. Bundle it with OS4 or even with an updated 3.9 (no boing bags for whatever reason, just a ready to run updated OS) and off you go.
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Voted "other" for "none of the above".
While I can see a point in resembling or doing remakes of old Amigas in an FPGA (or even in silicon), most prominently the A500 but perhaps also the A1200 (there might even be a small commercial gift-market for a Clone-A based "Amiga in a Joystick" bundled with a few games), I see no point whatsoever in creating "new" hardware that would be a museum object the moment it was born.
It wouldn't be an Amiga (it would probably even be incompatible to some degree) so it fails in the "Retro Amiga" genre, and it would at the same time be laughably behind in all technological aspects today, so it fails in the "New Amiga" genre as well.
Fail, fail.
Sorry!
;)
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It wouldn't be an Amiga (it would probably even be incompatible to some degree)
Try to find a single ECS app or game that doesn't work on the Minimig V1.1 board with the latest core. You have never touched an FPGA Amiga, I believe.
Good to see people is going for FPGA at last!
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An up to date, runs on most modern hardware Amithlon would suit me the best.
Even the hardware purists that have tried my Amithlon machine have been left speechless, especially when I tell them it's running on PC hardware with the physical box hidden away :)
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Try to find a single ECS app or game that doesn't work on the Minimig V1.1 board with the latest core. You have never touched an FPGA Amiga, I believe.
There are ECS games?
I know of plenty OCS games and AGA games.
Do you mean OCS games that are also compatible with ECS?
I'd say that minimig would have to be compatible with everything a 1.3 a500 can run to be worth using. As you can easily drop kickstart to 1.0/1.2 to run the rest as well.
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If implementing a new chipset - why use FPGA which limits performance from the get -go? I appreciate fabbing a new chipset would be expensive , so why not use off the shelf parts?
Lets face it - no software was ever written to support either the AAA chipset or the Hombre chipset - so why go there?
Why not use existing DSP's , GPU's along with a modern processor etc.
What might be really interesting is to have such a machine but include an amiga SOC design to provide legacy compatibility.
N
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Why not use existing DSP's , GPU's along with a modern processor etc.
Good idea IMHO, and this is called MorphOS (or OS4)... ;)
What might be really interesting is to have such a machine but include an amiga SOC design to provide legacy compatibility.
In practice, this would result in some hardware based UAE solution. The question "what's the point" comes to mind.
No, I'll stick to what I said earlier: Make it either "Retro", or "NG". Don't get stuck in the middle!
:)
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I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents as well.
All of our awesome Amiga hardware is going to die someday no matter how well we take care of it. What would be awesome is a system that can emulate all of the Amigas actually produced and sold. IMO I'd like to own a system with:
1. Hardware emulation of stock platforms via config file, with appropriate kickstarts stored in flash or selectable at boot.
(proper speed as well, no 300mhz A1000's)
2. The ability to use CF or SD as the HDD and FD out of the box (So IDE, or SATA for SCSI emulation). Can run .ADF
2. The ability to use actual Amiga keyboards and mice. Maybe have 2 usb for ppl that like newer mice/kb
4. Dip switch or Some way to toggle on and off RTG hardware emulation (picasso or spectrum).
5. HDMI output for video.
6. Small enough to fit in a classic case (for when our beloved hardware is all gone.
7. easy ways to hook up LED's for retro LED indicator goodness.
No PPC or MorphOS as those weren't officially released products. While they are fine and people are free to like them, they are guesses in the general direction that the hardware / software may have gone (yes I am aware that C= was working on the PPC version, but it was never FINALIZED and therefore we can't say what changes would've been made.)
From what I've seen (only seen), morph and all those seem too much like OSX or linux with skins. There is still a lot of cheap apple hardware that can run that stuff, not so much good Amiga stuff left.
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The latter sounds exactly like my Xotac Mini ITX box with a Lyra tacked on for real Amiga keyboard functionality.
Boots right into WB 3.1, never see the windows side at all. Can use whatever Miggy config you like, from mild to wild.
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I've voted "other" for the following reasons:
1. there was never any AAA chipset produced, and it wasn't going to be backwards compatible with OCS/AGA so that would be pretty pointless.
2. I'd much prefer a wedge/keyboard case than a big box.
3. FPGA for the CPU and AGA chipset maybe, but then it would just be another Minimig so why bother.
So here's my "other" suggestion. Use FPGA for the graphics but make it reprogrammable from software. Initialise it with AGA core from ROM, but allow the user to change it.
Also add a standard PCIe graphics set from nVidia or some other vendor, so we can have the latest OpenGL graphics. Pipe the output of this through the FPGA graphics core so it can process the image including "GenLOCK" the AGA on top of it.
The CPU could be FPGA-based 68060-like (special Amiga friendly version!) or I suppose it could be an ARM or PowerPC chip with software emulation. But I like the idea of an FPGA at the moment because I'm thinking of making my own core.
I guess this is really a combination of 1 & 3.
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With FPGA Arcade and TiNA we have two very good proofen concepts already, I do not see much sense doing anything different. TiNA is not a special retro development so it could be really affordable and I am already looking forward to it. Something nice (additionally) would be a cheap mobile device in future and of course we have emulated environments already including Android. So I think already a pretty nice list :-). At least in the near future FPGA is the way to go...
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I've voted "other" for the following reasons:
1. there was never any AAA chipset produced, and it wasn't going to be backwards compatible with OCS/AGA so that would be pretty pointless.
+5
2. I'd much prefer a wedge/keyboard case than a big box.
-5
Detached FTW!
So here's my "other" suggestion. Use FPGA for the graphics but make it reprogrammable from software. Initialise it with AGA core from ROM, but allow the user to change it.
Also add a standard PCIe graphics set from nVidia or some other vendor, so we can have the latest OpenGL graphics. Pipe the output of this through the FPGA graphics core so it can process the image including "GenLOCK" the AGA on top of it.
The CPU could be FPGA-based 68060-like (special Amiga friendly version!) or I suppose it could be an ARM or PowerPC chip with software emulation. But I like the idea of an FPGA at the moment because I'm thinking of making my own core.
+12
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I'm quite happy with the FPGA path.
On the off chance anyone wanted to resurrect the boxer, that would probably be doable without reaching $100 million+ in development.
It would be an upgraded big box Amiga which you could add 24-bit gfx.
Have it also in Mini-itx for a wedge system.
I never got to play with an Amithlon machine, but I assume it would be like WinUAE only better.
I should do this poll in another year. This was more of a quiz than a serious poll.
P.S. I should have added the GBA 1000 option, where you redo the ageing hardware chip for chip.
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The latter sounds exactly like my Xotac Mini ITX box with a Lyra tacked on for real Amiga keyboard functionality.
Boots right into WB 3.1, never see the windows side at all. Can use whatever Miggy config you like, from mild to wild.
Sure, but I like one off hardware, so the idea of dedicated hardware and selectable system via dip switch or flash ram sounds cool vs winuae auto booting.
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I respect your opinion, but wedges belong with cheesecake and not computers...computers do not need aerodynamics :razz:
I've voted "other" for the following reasons:
1. there was never any AAA chipset produced, and it wasn't going to be backwards compatible with OCS/AGA so that would be pretty pointless.
2. I'd much prefer a wedge/keyboard case than a big box.
3. FPGA for the CPU and AGA chipset maybe, but then it would just be another Minimig so why bother.
So here's my "other" suggestion. Use FPGA for the graphics but make it reprogrammable from software. Initialise it with AGA core from ROM, but allow the user to change it.
Also add a standard PCIe graphics set from nVidia or some other vendor, so we can have the latest OpenGL graphics. Pipe the output of this through the FPGA graphics core so it can process the image including "GenLOCK" the AGA on top of it.
The CPU could be FPGA-based 68060-like (special Amiga friendly version!) or I suppose it could be an ARM or PowerPC chip with software emulation. But I like the idea of an FPGA at the moment because I'm thinking of making my own core.
I guess this is really a combination of 1 & 3.
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Then there is the MiST and the TiNA projects.
Too lazy to Google, what the heck are MiST and TiNA? Really would be nice if some of these projects would actually make it through to completion (I'm still a bit bummed that Natami was canceled, especially). :-/
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I chose A5000, A3500, A1400 with AAA chipset but looking at the survey I doubt I will see it into reality.
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MiST : http://harbaum.org/till/mist/index.shtml
tina: http://www.tinaproject.it/about.html
happy reading :)
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Mist looks to be an AMIGA / Atari ST FPGA emulator. Since Commodore and Atari don't mix, it will probably fight itself to the death and explode when switched on ! :quickdraw:
The name is an amalgum of Miggy and ST.
Tina = 68020 in fpga at ridiculous speeds:
http://www.tinaproject.it/about.html
I believe the goal is to speed up apps and games as to make them utterly unusable/unplayable
Too lazy to Google, what the heck are MiST and TiNA? Really would be nice if some of these projects would actually make it through to completion (I'm still a bit bummed that Natami was canceled, especially). :-/
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Tina = 68020 in fpga at ridiculous speeds:
http://www.tinaproject.it/about.html
I believe the goal is to speed up apps and games as to make them utterly unusable/unplayable
It looks like the goal is to emulate the natami project.
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It looks like the goal is to emulate the natami project.
Sorry forgot my "/ sarcasm" switch or "(_*_) smart ass" switch :D
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Tina = 68020 in fpga at ridiculous speeds:
http://www.tinaproject.it/about.html
I believe the goal is to speed up apps and games as to make them utterly unusable/unplayable
After looking at their site, I believe they don't know what they're doing.
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its a pointless exercise.
like mentioned above any new hardware will fail and any new hardware emulating will fail the retro amiga scene.
Everyone just stick to your old Amiga.
and start CODING!
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Other -> FPGA for system chips and 68k plus a PPC for OS4 support OR a new amithlon
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11 votes for carrying on where C= left off and rolling out the next model. You can guestimate that 100 people (casual non-voters) would back this. Unfortunately not enough.
If you did manage to get enough $ to redo a classic Amiga, it would just be the motherboard upgraded and be able to fit in an A1200, 3000 or 4000 case.
I'm sure that the FPGA route also includes remakes of the original chips if it is ever viable. Hard to say if it will ever happen.
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Sorry whats the point of this?
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It has to be an Amiga OCS 1mb chipram machine built into a joystick like the C64DTV thing and sold for $30 or less. Also to include 30 iconic Amiga games in the flash rom. Just like the 64DTV you can add register compatible enhancements to the chipset too like a proper byte per pixel 256 colour mode (and therefore a 3 byte per pixel 24bit mode etc) and triple Paula emulation for 12 sound channels (or 6 14bit sound channels).
Anything else would be doomed to obscurity IMO
Yes an Amithlon machine running properly on an 8 core version of the Intel i7 and the hottest GPU currently in development would make an amazing machine but would anyone buy it to cover the development cost of rewriting 0S 3.x to run properly on it and even 1 game of Playstation 4/Xbox One quality (without a PS4 quality game the system is useless, games prove in seconds who has the most powerful hardware today and ultimately why Doom not being as good on mhz per mhz with cheap PCs is why AGA died a quick death....and took C= with it IMO).
(I have no interest in PPC, neither Morph or OS4 have a future running on such a CPU once all the bespoke/old Mac host hardware disappears)
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Sorry whats the point of this?
I'm just asking if anyone wanted to resurrect old projects. Although it is not a serious poll, so we don't go off on a tangent.
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People are simply voting for what is most likely to achieve results, several projects are currently working with fpga whereas no-one is trying to design a AAA chipset, and if they were they would also need to design a 68k compatible processor.
Best to do it all in fpga since you can correct your mistakes much easier and cheaper then with full custom silicon.
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whereas no-one is trying to design a AAA chipset,
AAA was a horrible design, you wouldn't do it anything like that now.
FPGA is the way to go. I'd like to see elements of AGA+ and Hombre in one of them.
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Good idea IMHO, and this is called MorphOS (or OS4)... ;)
In practice, this would result in some hardware based UAE solution. The question "what's the point" comes to mind.
No, I'll stick to what I said earlier: Make it either "Retro", or "NG". Don't get stuck in the middle!
:)
Why have another Retro Amiga? IMHO emulators such as UAE do the job well enough. OK it may not be perfect but for me it does the job well enough. The way should be NG probably requiring a rewrite of AmigaOS for either Intel or ARM processors,most likely the latter.
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Why have another Retro Amiga? IMHO emulators such as UAE do the job well enough. OK it may not be perfect but for me it does the job well enough. The way should be NG probably requiring a rewrite of AmigaOS for either Intel or ARM processors,most likely the latter.
That already exists. It is called "AROS"
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That already exists. It is called "AROS"
Already had a look at AROS through AmigaForever. I will have another look.
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In Amigaforever is only a nightly build. I have created a 68k distribution called "AROS Vision"
http://www.aros-platform.de/html/distribution_download.html
Then there is Icaros Desktop for X86:
http://vmwaros.blogspot.de/
Description (expecially regarding 68k distribution) is here:
http://www.aros-platform.de/html/icaros.html
On the Icaros site is a good manual (PDF)
if your hardware is not supported you can install and test it in a virtual environment like VMWare (installed native on supported hardware is of course better and faster)
Raspberry native port is in preparation (but at the start there will be not much software what will certainly change)
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It has to be an Amiga OCS 1mb chipram machine built into a joystick like the C64DTV thing and sold for $30 or less. Also to include 30 iconic Amiga games in the flash rom. Just like the 64DTV
This was tried, didn't happen (unfinished, really, like a zillion other post-Commodore Amiga-like projects), and the market has moved on. See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uaDzF99a80
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I'm quite happy with the FPGA path.
On the off chance anyone wanted to resurrect the boxer, that would probably be doable without reaching $100 million+ in development.
It would be an upgraded big box Amiga which you could add 24-bit gfx.
Have it also in Mini-itx for a wedge system.
I never got to play with an Amithlon machine, but I assume it would be like WinUAE only better.
I should do this poll in another year. This was more of a quiz than a serious poll.
P.S. I should have added the GBA 1000 option, where you redo the ageing hardware chip for chip.
I like the option of new boards / components the best. Fix some of the inadequacies of the hardware, like faster hard drive controllers (maybe even implement SATA on the board), have built in EEPROMS so we could have upgrades like modern BIOS/UEFI systems, where we can upgrade the libraries in rom instead of having to dink around with setpatch and loadmodules.
To me the Amiga is hardware and operating system. If it were just the operating system, I would use AROS. But if I can replace AROS on an M68k (which looks like it's either getting there, or is already there?) then I probably would! I've always loved the 68k processors. And AmigaOS really takes advantage of it, but I think the closed source nature of AmigaOS is part of why, after Commodore died off, that it didn't remain a very viable option for most people, and quickly turned into a hobby system.
With AROS being ported to 68k, we could replace the closed source system with an open sourced one and finally integrate a lot of the patches that people have been working on, like PeterK's icon.library.
So I would vote for something like Natami (which I think had the best goals in mind) and get AROS to support it 100%.
slaapliedje
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This was tried, didn't happen (unfinished, really, like a zillion other post-Commodore Amiga-like projects), and the market has moved on. See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uaDzF99a80
The C64DTV is one of the biggest selling most successful reboot though, if it is not possible technically then there is something wrong because they can squeeze megadrives into something smaller than the size of a Nintendo game and watch.
It's not my ideal machine don't get me wrong but it would sell close to a million if it was possible :)
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The way should be NG probably requiring a rewrite of AmigaOS for either Intel or ARM processors,most likely the latter.
I would love to see an NG Amiga on ARM - I have a pcDuino which has a Cortex A8 ARM at 1GHz, 1GB RAM and 2GB Flash built in. Specs that should be able to run an Amiga OS at speed. Plus it only costs about £50. I am watching for the native AROS for Raspberry PI as well. Not to mention they are low powered enough to easily installed in a wedge case for those who like that (me included!) or even battery powered.... A pipe dream I know, still a nice one :)
I am with the guys who feel that 'New' Classics should be left to the emulators. My old WinUAE installation used to fly compared to my trusty of A1200, obviously.
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FPGA has a great advantage with non-amigans if it be flashed as an atari, Sinclair, BBC, MSX etc.. even N64 is getting FPGA treatment these days. The way I see it, the more machines it can be flashed as, the bigger the market. Why build a retro machine any other way?
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FPGA has a great advantage with non-amigans if it be flashed as an atari, Sinclair, BBC, MSX etc.. even N64 is getting FPGA treatment these days. The way I see it, the more machines it can be flashed as, the bigger the market. Why build a retro machine any other way?
That is true, especially if it was easy to use the actual controllers. Even an FPGA recreation beats pure software emu for ease of use once set up, and it can fit in the original hardware (for those of us that prefer original plastic).
Maybe ALL the groups should get together and do the "MAME" of all FPGA emulators...hmmmm.
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I'm with you on that one buddy.
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If there was some sort of MUltiple Logic Emulator (M.U.L.E *wink wink*) that emulated all the old school stuff 2600 - 7800, Nintendo, Sega) that:
1.Lets me load images and allowed use of actual controllers via usb adapter
2 hooks up to the tv,
3.and stays configured via flash or SD card config, so as to just turn it on and play
I'll buy on for myself and 2 more for my kids !
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Good idea IMHO, and this is called MorphOS (or OS4)... ;)
In practice, this would result in some hardware based UAE solution. The question "what's the point" comes to mind.
No, I'll stick to what I said earlier: Make it either "Retro", or "NG". Don't get stuck in the middle!
:)
Or AROS.
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I voted Boxer, 'cause that's what I'm interested in. A new motherboard that can help the custom chips live on. We have plenty of broken A1200s in the world that no-one bothers to fix. :-)