Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: AmiDelf on February 02, 2004, 12:44:42 PM
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Only seriouse answeres will be taken. Please answere. Negative responces to this will be ignored.
1.
Should this project go for a normal ATX PPC motherboard with PowerVR gfx custom chips or its own motherboard?
2.
Should this new so-called Amiga, use AmigaOS v4 or MorphOS?
3.
Should this new Amiga have Zorro slots, or not?
4.
Would you like to see Amiga connectors for ZipStick compatibility and Amiga mouse comp.?
5.
What sort of Amiga keyboard connector is the best sollution? USB only support? PS/2 alike connector like on Amiga 4000? PS/2 connector?
6.
How should this Amiga keyboard be? 96 keys like before, or PC alike form?
7.
Should we go for PowerVR 2 or PowerVR 3 for the prototype?
8.
What sort of tower sollutions should we use? We want to continue Amiga 4000 T design and go further with this. Is this bad, or good?
9.
What price would you give for such Amiga?
10.
We've come up with Amiga 5200, Amiga 5600 and even Amiga 6000. What should the name be of this new Amiga?
11.
Is Amiga NeXT a bad or good name for this project?
12.
Any comment? What sort of companies would be interested in this project? How about Dreamcast game compatibility? The option to use DC controllers for this "new" entertaining Amiga?
We hope to get good answers. All negative sugestions against this project, will be ignored. We want to know what you want. We want to know how this project should go on.
I think that this is the first time ever, when a community tougether makes a new Amiga. I know that AmigaOne and PegasosII will be good alternatives. But this project aim is to give Amigans what they allways wanted. The NeXT Amiga!
Regards,
Michal, www.amigaworld.org
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I'll just answer the ones I have something vaguely useful to say for:
2. Should this new so-called Amiga, use AmigaOS v4 or MorphOS?
AROS!
4. Would you like to see Amiga connectors for ZipStick compatibility and Amiga mouse comp.?
Yes.
5. What sort of Amiga keyboard connector is the best sollution? USB only support? PS/2 alike connector like on Amiga 4000? PS/2 connector?
The more the merrier.
6. How should this Amiga keyboard be? 92 keys like before, or PC alike form?
Unless you're manufacturing keyboards too, I shouldn't have thought you need to worry about that...
8. What sort of tower sollutions should we use? We want to continue Amiga 4000 T design and go further with this. Is this bad, or good?
I'd say start fresh.
11.
Is Amiga NeXT a bad or good name for this project?
Very bad. Steve Jobs would sue your ass.
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1.
Should this project go for a normal ATX PPC motherboard with PowerVR gfx custom chips or its own motherboard?
Normal ATX PPC (to make some competition against AmigaOne to drive down prices :-)
2.
Should this new so-called Amiga, use AmigaOS v4 or MorphOS?
AmigaOS4
3.
Should this new Amiga have Zorro slots, or not?
No, time to say byebye to the past
4.
Would you like to see Amiga connectors for ZipStick compatibility and Amiga mouse comp.?
Sure
5.
What sort of Amiga keyboard connector is the best sollution? USB only support? PS/2 alike connector like on Amiga 4000? PS/2 connector?
Why not both?
6.
How should this Amiga keyboard be? 92 keys like before, or PC alike form?
92 keys amiga
8.
What sort of tower sollutions should we use? We want to continue Amiga 4000 T design and go further with this. Is this bad, or good?
Bad, start fresh, be innovative :-)
9.
What price would you give for such Amiga?
somewhere between the Peg and A1
11.
Is Amiga NeXT a bad or good name for this project?
Bad, i dont have any other suggestions though
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1. If you are refering to the form factor, it should be ATX, micro-ATX, mini-itx or what you want, but it should be standard.
2. Why not both?
3. No. They are slow, expensive and outdated.
4. No. I would prefer an Amiga usb (or ps2) mouse and keyboard. You could do them with exactly the same shape, colour,etc of the originals. That legacy ports would increase the cost with little benefits. Using only usb would make it easier for newcomers.
5. Probably usb. Although I have not anything aginst ps2.
6. 92? I guess you mean 96. It should be exactly like the old keyboards but with usb connection.
7. Go for the most modern chip. Design time is long and when you finish the prototype prices of the powervr3 (does it exist?) will have come down. Who knows a powervr4 may have appeared.
8. A tower with 3 5/15 bays would be enough, and a pair of 3 1/2 too. IMHO the A4000T (cbm or escom) look like a normal pc. I wouldn't try to make it as big as an A4kT. I have one and it takes too much space. Computers are getting smaller each day. Look at the barebones/mini-itx systems. I don't say you have to go to a really small form-factor, but very big towers are butt-ugly (a 1200 look better than my 4kT), weight a lot and give you little advantages. Make it of aluminium so it weights less and keep it as small as you can but keep space for three 5 1/4 devices and two 3 1/2 devices.
9. Under 500€ or the plain board and CPU if you want it to sell them well. You could put a G3 FX so you get altivec too. I would use an A1 or PegasosII CPU slot.
10. I don't know but as long as it's a number higher than 4000 it will be ok for me.
11. A bad one and it may lead to legal problems. What has to do NeXT with Amiga? nothing. If it was Apple at least they would have something similar...
12. Forget about using DC controllers. They are no longer manofactured. DC game compatibility is not a bad idea but remember than DCs used Gigaroms and you couldn't read with a normal CD drive. You could use pirate cds of course, but I can't see that as a good idea, so forget anything about DreamCast.
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1-The first
2-AmigaOS4 for sure. Then other OS like MorphOS and Aros wil be welcome.
3-No
4-Don't know
5-PS2+USB
6-92!!!! :-D
7-It is your choice :-)
8-Something modern?
9-The price will be high, everybody want low prices, but often it is impossibile. It an your issue :-)
10-The number model taste.....too "classic". I prefear someting like AMigaOne, Pegasos.... something new. AmigaPhoenix?
11-I like it
12-Dreamcast (or others game console compatibility) is very good, but it will take a lot of resource (time and money for you). Game Cube is a PPC machine :-D
Good luck AmiDelf ;-)
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1. Own motherboard? Sure why not.
2. Let the user decide.
3. No Zorro slots.
4. Include USB, and let the user decide what they want to plug in to it. maybe include an Amiga Mouse/Joysitck to USB adaptor.
5. USB.
6. Why not have the option for both. Since you have USB then the user can decide if they want to buy your custom "Amiga" keybord or use a standard one.
7. Let the user decide on the GFX chipset. For Prototype simply use the cheapest you can get docs for.
8. I like the Original commodore A4KT (Not the Amiga Tech one). But you should let the user decide.
9. If you expect it to sell, the basic MOBO should not be more than £100... a complete "ready to run" system for £500 to £600 is reasonable.
10. You can't use the name Amiga, since Amiga Inc. own it. Call it the 5k :-)
11. bad... a nice chap caleld Steve will hunt you down and hurt you.
12. I refuse to comment.
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1.
Should this project go for a normal ATX PPC motherboard with PowerVR gfx custom chips or its own motherboard?
The cheapest option :-)
2.
Should this new so-called Amiga, use AmigaOS v4 or MorphOS?
OS4
3.
Should this new Amiga have Zorro slots, or not?
Nope.
4.
Would you like to see Amiga connectors for ZipStick compatibility and Amiga mouse comp.?
Yeah why not :-) Also PS2 mouse support for compatibility.
5.
What sort of Amiga keyboard connector is the best sollution? USB only support? PS/2 alike connector like on Amiga 4000? PS/2 connector?
PS/2 works well for me.
6.
How should this Amiga keyboard be? 96 keys like before, or PC alike form?
Amiga standard.
7.
Should we go for PowerVR 2 or PowerVR 3 for the prototype?
Dont know the difference, just no nvidia please.
8.
What sort of tower sollutions should we use? We want to continue Amiga 4000 T design and go further with this. Is this bad, or good?
New design. Amiga's tend to look old IMHO..
9.
What price would you give for such Amiga?
Depends on the quality and spec's
10.
We've come up with Amiga 5200, Amiga 5600 and even Amiga 6000. What should the name be of this new Amiga?
Amiga 6000 sounds nice :-)
11.
Is Amiga NeXT a bad or good name for this project?
Real bad.
12.
Any comment? What sort of companies would be interested in this project? How about Dreamcast game compatibility? The option to use DC controllers for this "new" entertaining Amiga?
Hmm dunno sorry.
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ikir wrote:
6-92!!!! :-D
Bzzzt! Wrong. As far as I'm aware, this:
(http://www.pgordon.clara.net/175.jpg)
is the Amiga keyboard layout with the fewest keys (excluding Amiga 1000), and it clearly has 94. There is another layout with smaller enter and left-shift keys allowing an extra two keys to make 96.
The american & english versions of the Amiga 1000 keyboard had 89 keys:
(http://www.pgordon.clara.net/a1key.jpg)
And a google image search for "Amiga 1000 Keyboard" produces a european version, again with 2 extra keys making 91.
So, the keyboard most people know and love has 94 or 96 keys, and the original short-lived a1000 keyboard has 89 or 91.
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xeron wrote:
ikir wrote:
6-92!!!! :-D
Bzzzt! Wrong. As far as I'm aware, this:
(http://www.pgordon.clara.net/175.jpg)
is the Amiga keyboard layout with the fewest keys (excluding Amiga 1000), and it clearly has 94. There is another layout with smaller enter and left-shift keys allowing an extra two keys to make 96.
The american & english versions of the Amiga 1000 keyboard had 89 keys:
(http://www.pgordon.clara.net/a1key.jpg)
And a google image search for "Amiga 1000 Keyboard" produces a european version, again with 2 extra keys making 91.
So, the keyboard most people know and love has 94 or 96 keys, and the original short-lived a1000 keyboard has 89 or 91.
So what are you trying to say?
:lol:
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bloodline wrote:
So what are you trying to say?
...that i'm very bored right now :-)
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1.Should this project go for a normal ATX PPC motherboard with PowerVR gfx custom chips or its own motherboard?
I dont know, but it if it had its own motherboard it would need a custom case which makes it much more expensive. So (micro) atx seems to be the only option.
2.Should this new so-called Amiga, use AmigaOS v4 or MorphOS?
I fear you will have to ignore a lot on this thread ;-) The best option for this project might be Aros because it doesnt cost anything. But if you plan to name it Amiga6000/5200/etc then it must (also) run AmigaOS imho.
3.Should this new Amiga have Zorro slots, or not?
No its obsolete. Everything other than pci is insane. Commodore planned to replace the zorro slots with pci, too.
6.How should this Amiga keyboard be? 96 keys like before, or PC alike form?
Amiga Keyboard of course.
8.What sort of tower sollutions should we use? We want to continue Amiga 4000 T design and go further with this. Is this bad, or good?
Tower? If you have a custom board why not make an 1200 style case? It would be an altervative to the existing AmigaOne solutions.
9.What price would you give for such Amiga?
I dont know, but I fear most people (including me) wont be able to afford it.
11.Is Amiga NeXT a bad or good name for this project?
I dont think its a good name. It sounds even more stupid than amiga one.
12.Any comment? What sort of companies would be interested in this project? How about Dreamcast game compatibility? The option to use DC controllers for this "new" entertaining Amiga?
It would be a nice feature. But to be honest the DC is as dead as the amiga so there wont be new games either.:-(
Btw you havent said/asked anything about the cpu, why?
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AmiDelf wrote:
Only seriouse answeres will be taken. Please answere. Negative responces to this will be ignored. [... questions snipped ...] We hope to get good answers. All negative sugestions against this project, will be ignored. We want to know what you want. We want to know how this project should go on.
How nice. I'm sure the project is in good hands with an attitude like that.
I think that this is the first time ever, when a community tougether makes a new Amiga. I know that AmigaOne and PegasosII will be good alternatives. But this project aim is to give Amigans what they allways wanted. The NeXT Amiga!
If you could explain in somewhat greater detail what this 'NeXT Amiga' is supposed to do, or why the AmigaOne or Pegasos II are not 'NeXT Amigas', I can write down serious and non-negative answers to your questionnaire. Unfortunately I have a nagging feeling I am not going to get an answer, ever. I should probably stop responding altogether.
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If you are aiming for a Amiga clone with the feel of the classic Amigas you should do the following.
1. The board should fit in a standard ATX box with a ATX power supply I think. Otherwise do as you like!
(This is simply a way to keep the cost down)
2. AmigaOS 4.0
3. Zorro slots are not needed since there is cheap PCI cards available that do the job better. However if you find some odd custom hardware that there would still be an interrest to use, then maybe add one or two if there is space left.
4. Don't know what ZipStick is!
5. Go for USB! PS2 is on it's way out.
6. Keep the 96 key style, but don't neccesarily restrict it to 96 keys. Be prepared that there are quite many national key sets to take care of and that the US keyboards lack 2 keys.
7. Don't know PowerVR!
8. If you wan't to make cases I think it's a good idea to get inspired by the Commodore designs, since they afterall made all the classic Amigas. It would be cool if someone made a desktop modell like A3000D but with a DVD recorder instead of a secondary floppy.
9. Oh, that's the tough part. We wan't it all but preferably we don't want to pay.
10. If it's a true clone that would fit into the standard line, A5000 would be OK. That would ofcourse require an agreement with Amiga Inc.
11. Stay away from trademarks. OK for Amiga but drop NeXT.
12. It would be great to see a continuation of the classic Amiga line with the hardware of the future. Would be nice with custom chip emulation. Either hardware or software.
Good luck! ;-)
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Cymric wrote:
AmiDelf wrote:
Only seriouse answeres will be taken. Please answere. Negative responces to this will be ignored. [... questions snipped ...] We hope to get good answers. All negative sugestions against this project, will be ignored. We want to know what you want. We want to know how this project should go on.
How nice. I'm sure the project is in good hands with an attitude like that.
I think that this is the first time ever, when a community tougether makes a new Amiga. I know that AmigaOne and PegasosII will be good alternatives. But this project aim is to give Amigans what they allways wanted. The NeXT Amiga!
If you could explain in somewhat greater detail what this 'NeXT Amiga' is supposed to do, or why the AmigaOne or Pegasos II are not 'NeXT Amigas', I can write down serious and non-negative answers to your questionnaire. Unfortunately I have a nagging feeling I am not going to get an answer, ever. I should probably stop responding altogether.
While I have similar feelings, I think you should give serious answeres to this thread. If nothing else it will allow us to disscuss the relative merits of each others thoughts :-)
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well :-)
1. atx and why not a direct replacement form factor for A1200 and A4000?
2. AmigaOS v4!
3. PCI + Zorro III / IV slots
4. connectors for ZipStick compatibility and Amiga mouse comp.?
Yes, BTW what is zipstick? (sorry for dumb question ;-)
5. USB and A4000 like
6. exactly the same as ever, 96 keys Amiga but usb, I hate PeeCee keyboards (even with rebadged win keys)
7. go for the best, it's price will drop.
BTW if the vr2 is pin/commands compatible with the other, prototyping would cost less with the older one ;-)
8. personally, I love the A3K and A4K tower styles, but why not a new custom one ? with plenty room in it!
BTW, we need a cheap A1200 shaped replacement too ...
9. around 250 (A12K style) and 5-600 Euros (A4K style)
10. Amiga 1200+ and Amiga 5000 and up :-) or PowerAmiga :-?
11.›VERY BAD!
12. Would definitelly appeal some compagny :-)
About dreamcast compatibility : no.
About paddles, perhaps.
13 : another important ports to have on board : serial/parallel (at least one of each), UWSCSI and ATA, amiga mouse/joystick, RVB 50/60 Hz video outpout, firewire.
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1. ATX
2.MorphOS or AmigaOS4 doesn´t make much difference if zou don´t have any hardware yet ...
3.Zorro slots ?? If Elbox can make a Mediator that creates pci slots from Zorro slots, then why can´t anybody create a Zorro slot from a standard pci slot ???
4. the more connectors the better but also the more expensive ...
5.a pc keyboard connector to drop the price ... usb will also do ...
6.pc keyboard with Amiga logo on Windows key :)
7.Power VR2 or 3 ??? Both are good, but what is the least expensive ???
8.ATX pc towers, lower price
9.price ?? What can it do ?? How fast ???
10. the name is not important yet if you don´t have anything ready yet
11.Next: bad name ... boring name ...
12.why include DreamCast compatibility if they don´t make them anymore ??? Only for the existing games ??
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11.
Is Amiga NeXT a bad or good name for this project?
Bad, VERY bad and quite stupid.
NeXT sucked.
NeXT still sucks.
Don't use words with negative connotations.
How about Dreamcast game compatibility?
Uhhh... dude, ur on drugs. It uses the wrong processor.
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1. MikroATX, FlexATX, MiniITX, make mine a small one mommy ;-)
2. Put an OF on it, and refuse to bundle ANY commercial OS (we''ll see where thats gonna head)
3. No.
4. Better make a simple USB-9PIN-adapter that you could also sell outside the A5k.
5. USB, or REAL PS/2
6. Again something you could sell outside the A5k if you make it standard USB or PS/2 one.
(actually I would even advice that you do these before you embark into the big project,
just like the Amiga-JoyBoard).
7. Start with a PCI or AGP-card for the proto.
8. None, towers (escpecially big ones) suck. An A3000D-case with internal
CD-ROM ...............
9. Fivepence ? :-D I would spend up to 800Euro for a (full) usefull system, and up to
400 for something like the C=One.
10. Names are just farts in the wind, get something going before you start thinking about that.
11. Next idea please :-P
12. Only suicidal companies would be interested in such a project, unless you allready
got $$$$$$$$$$ (and I am serious bout it). The DC-design was available for use in
STBs or similar shortly after it was pulled by Nintendo, but I somehow doubt that it would
be sensible to incoperate it in a PC-like system.
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xeron wrote:
bloodline wrote:
So what are you trying to say?
...that i'm very bored right now :-)
*Sigh* all my wasted effort. Here was my attempt ;-)
(http://homepage.ntlworld.com/christopher.sheffield/96 amiga keys.jpg)
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:-x Why does everybody have more time than me?
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bloodline wrote:
:-x Why does everybody have more time than me?
We don't, we just have a lot of things we're putting off... ;-)
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Hi !
Just a comment/question:
Where do you find the money and the people to do that ???
Bye
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NicoPPC wrote:
Hi !
Just a comment/question:
Where do you find the money and the people to do that ???
Bye
Carefull Now that is a negative question, AmiDelf doesn't answer those...
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1: I don't know. I bet it all depend on the OS that will support the PowerVR. If it doesn't. then what point of doing it. If it does. I would says go for it. as long I'll able to add other gfx card down the road with out messing up the system.
2: At this point. it shouild work with all amiga OS that comming out. If it had to be one at a time on OS for this system. Just pick what ever is ready and less buggy. You can't sell if very buggy system.
3 Life must go on and price have to come down. So add another non-standard just add up the cost and may not be used.
4 I'm not so sure about it. Forget about the amiga mouse. Newer mouse are better and price are dropping as time go by.
5 Just use the USB and PS/2. Forget about the amiga 4000 connector. Keyboard are cheap.
6 If your thinking about building the whole system, not just the motherboard. I says what ever you can find to keep the price down. I don't mean you rebuilt the keysboard If something are already done.
7 If the OS support the PowerVR 2 or PowerVR 3, I would says go for the PowerVR 3 to be on par with times when it ready to release. If the OS doesn't then don't bother. Keep the price down.
8 Many user are mostly customs case. I'm sure many rather just get the motherboard it-self. For me, keep the price down and use the standard lay out to fix in standard case.
9 I really can't say. I prefer try to keep the price like the Peg and A1. but keep try to keep it low as possable.
10 I really don't care about the name. I just want a working system.
11 Look at number 10
12 I really dont know what your planning in the market. that would depend what your plainning to do.
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bloodline wrote:
While I have similar feelings, I think you should give serious answeres to this thread. If nothing else it will allow us to disscuss the relative merits of each others thoughts :-)
Yeah, true. But it all feels very silly, doesn't it? Nevertheless, since AmiDelf insists on serious answers, I'll present him with mine in my next post.
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1.
Should this project go for a normal ATX PPC motherboard with PowerVR gfx custom chips or its own motherboard?
ATX or Mini-Itx
2.
Should this new so-called Amiga, use AmigaOS v4 or MorphOS?
AmigaOS 4
3.
Should this new Amiga have Zorro slots, or not?
No
4.
Would you like to see Amiga connectors for ZipStick compatibility and Amiga mouse comp.?
No
5.
What sort of Amiga keyboard connector is the best sollution? USB only support? PS/2 alike connector like on Amiga 4000? PS/2 connector?
PS/2 and USB
6.
How should this Amiga keyboard be? 96 keys like before, or PC alike form?
Don't mind
7.
Should we go for PowerVR 2 or PowerVR 3 for the prototype?
?
8.
What sort of tower sollutions should we use? We want to continue Amiga 4000 T design and go further with this. Is this bad, or good?
BAD! make it nice and simple to look at
9.
What price would you give for such Amiga?
Motherboard: less than 300£
System: less than pegasos 2
10.
We've come up with Amiga 5200, Amiga 5600 and even Amiga 6000. What should the name be of this new Amiga?
a number is not bad
11.
Is Amiga NeXT a bad or good name for this project?
Bad
12.
How about Dreamcast game compatibility? The option to use DC controllers for this "new" entertaining Amiga?
Forget it
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Keeping in mind that I have no idea as to what the 'new Amiga' is supposed to be good or excel at, here is my own serious reply:
1. Given the choice between the two, I'd probably go for ATX + custom PowerVR graphics chipset. It's less complex to design, and has well-known form factors. Personally I'd want a micro-ATX form factor. Small, lean and mean.
2. For now, AOS4, by a small margin. Personally, I'd opt for AROS: the project is community-driven meaning that the use of closed-source, proprietary software would be difficult to say the least.
3. No Zorro-slots, not even as an option. Zorro is woefully inadequate and outdated. It served its purpose at the time, and should now be allowed an honorable retirement.
4. No special-purpose connectors whatsoever for common input peripherals. I want to use stuff which doesn't give me RSI, and I want to have a healthy choice in models too.
5. PS/2 and USB. PS/2 is considered to be 'legacy' but I can live with such a small connector (or two).
6. No special-purpose input peripherals whatsoever, save for, perhaps, a game pad or game controller. Stuff breaks down, and there's a far better choice in PC-style keyboards (My mouse and keyboard are wireless, for example. That's bliss---no more cables messing up my desktop.)
7. I don't know what the merits of each chip are, so I'm going to pass. Personally, I feel that a graphics chip(set) should be backed by a manufacturer who doesn't require you to sign an NDA in order to get developer documents. This is not because I'm an open software proponent; it's just far less hassle in a community project.
8. Puh-lease. The Real Next Amiga is going to be fitted in the custom designed shell of an Imperial Destroyer (see here (http://www.overclockers.com.au/~bluesmurf)) or, for those with less time on their hands (like poor Bloodline) a Millennium Falcon (see here (http://www.xkill.net/rcaslis/computers/Falcon-making/index.html)). Now that is a case I'd love to have on my desk!
9. 500 dollars max.
10. You can't use the name 'Amiga' for obvious legal reasons. That's a sad fact of life. So instead choose something new and snazzy. I don't know a good alternative, but let me ponder for a while.
11. Bad idea, see 10.
12. The kind of company with way too much cash to spare, a soft spot for the old Amiga, and a desire to do something completely whacky.
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7. Go for the most modern chip. Design time is long and when you finish the prototype prices of the powervr3 (does it exist?) will have come down. Who knows a powervr4 may have appeared.
Um... PowerVR 3 came out in 2000, that's what the Kyro/Kyro II are. PowerVR 4 was canned and PowerVR have focused efforts on their embedded designs, like MBX.
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Actually I you like to go for a tower, I think you should consider a simple motherboard with minimal amount of peripherals as these can be added via cheap PCI boards. As for the graphics add a AGP slot instead. Instead concentrate on the CPU(s) and the memory bus. Make the board attractive for the Linux people that want to build their own killer machine.
What you need is a short lead time from idea to product, since what you consider hot today will be old fasioned next year. And that means to use minimal amount of integrated hardware.
As for keyboards and mouse. Amiga style USB devices would be nice. They should preferably also work on a PC system.
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Not negative....just asking a few questions which may sound like it.
#2: Using AOS or MOS...
What is the purpose of using MOS ? The Pegasos IMHO would be a better choice of hardware. Why use OS4? Are you trying to make a cheaper alternative to the A1?
I still do not understand the purpose of this new system. The Pegasos I, II and A1 are truly great pieces of hardware.
Why not be a software development group? Port a web browser, some games etc?
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1. Should this project go for a normal ATX PPC motherboard with PowerVR gfx custom chips or its own motherboard?
Adding a slot for Gfx cards does give the advantage of using different tech, or upgrades.
2. Should this new so-called Amiga, use AmigaOS v4 or MorphOS?
I'd talk to the developers first.
3. Should this new Amiga have Zorro slots, or not?
No.
4. Would you like to see Amiga connectors for ZipStick compatibility and Amiga mouse comp.?
What is ZipStick?
5. What sort of Amiga keyboard connector is the best sollution? USB only support? PS/2 alike connector like on Amiga 4000? PS/2 connector?
USB, PS/2 is obsolete.
6. How should this Amiga keyboard be? 96 keys like before, or PC alike form?
Just use a PC keyboard.
7. Should we go for PowerVR 2 or PowerVR 3 for the prototype?
I'm still wondering about the PowerVR, there were screenshots in the other thread but my first generation Radeon is vastly better quality and it's nearly 3 generations behind!
8. What sort of tower sollutions should we use? We want to continue Amiga 4000 T design and go further with this. Is this bad, or good?
I wouldn't copy anyone elses design.
9. What price would you give for such Amiga?
I'd put good money on the average desired price beign several times lower than the manufacturing cost.
10. We've come up with Amiga 5200, Amiga 5600 and even Amiga 6000. What should the name be of this new Amiga?
Omega O 5000
11. Is Amiga NeXT a bad or good name for this project?
I think there's a few answers to this one already...
12. Any comment? What sort of companies would be interested in this project?
Probably not many.
12.(B) How about Dreamcast game compatibility? The option to use DC controllers for this "new" entertaining Amiga?
Expensive, difficult and er, Why?
Why not add Amiga games compatibility? You'll need a big CPU and a license to Amiga Forever, you might actually sell a few of those...
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Damit! Double post. (Should not use the back button)
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>1. Should this project go for a normal ATX PPC motherboard with PowerVR gfx custom chips or its own motherboard?
Go ATX, cases and power supplies are thus cheap and plentiful.
>2. Should this new so-called Amiga, use AmigaOS v4 or MorphOS?
Either, or both. I'm personally more interested in AmigaOS4.
>3. Should this new Amiga have Zorro slots, or not?
No Zorro. Compared to other things you can get today, Zorro is OLD, SLOW, EXPENSIVE, and "available" cards are few today and most cards people have laying around are likely aging and will need replaced soonish anyway. It's not worth the expense or trouble.
>4. Would you like to see Amiga connectors for ZipStick compatibility and Amiga mouse comp.?
Don't particularly care about Amiga Mouse connector, PS/2 or USB should be fine. Have no idea what ZipStick is, so I guess I won't miss it if it's missing.
>5. What sort of Amiga keyboard connector is the best sollution? USB only support? PS/2 alike connector like on Amiga 4000? PS/2 connector?
Either USB or true PS/2, as such keyboards are cheap and plentiful. Don't use the A4000 style, it's just a different connector with the standard Amiga signaling which uses the CIAs to talk to the computer. All the recent PC keyboards I have bought in the last few years are all USB native but come with a USB->PS/2 adaptor. I use them as PS/2 with the adaptor.
>6. How should this Amiga keyboard be? 96 keys like before, or PC alike form?
Just find a good PC keyboard out there and get special keycaps printed if you want. A custom made keyboard won't be worth the money probably. I currently share my PC keyboard with my 4000T via a PS/2 adaptor, and the extra keys from PC land are convenient to have. Besides, I only ever saw one or two programs actually use the Help key, so don't miss that at all.
>7. Should we go for PowerVR 2 or PowerVR 3 for the prototype?
I thought you wanted make some custom chips, that you did NOT have any interest whatsoever to use off the shelf PC parts?! What does a Kyro (II) give you that a more modern and with more features Radeon or NVidia chip doesn't?? How does a Kyro have more of your "Amiga feeling" than any other PC graphics chip?? I've had my PicassoIV with the Cirrus 5446 for q number of years now, and don't miss the AGA look at all. Whatever, go with the newest/better feature set.
>8. What sort of tower sollutions should we use? We want to continue Amiga 4000 T design and go further with this. Is this bad, or good?
I have an A4000T built by Quikpak. I **HATE** this tower case. It's a pain to take apart and put back together, you have to lay it on its side when open, you have to lay it on its side to do the opening... My PC case by Antec lets me leave the thing where it is, just pop the side off and tinker inside, it's much easier to deal with. If you want to pick a particular case, please make it one that is easy to get in and out of, make sure that an expansion card packed with connectors is easy to get in and out (A different PC case forced me to unscrew and slide back the motherboard to put my Radeon AllInWonder 8500DV in and out as the connectors on it hit part of the case if the motherboard wasn't moved, VERY BAD case design there too)
>9. What price would you give for such Amiga?
Depending on if you choose OS4 or MorphOS, don't price significantly higher than the current AmigaOne or Pegasos that your OS of choice runs on. If you go too much higher than that, people will buy the AmigaOne/Pegasos instead. Even though you want to put a middle-aged chip on your motherboard, I'd probably disable it and use my spare Radeon card anyway, which recently came out of my PC in favor of a newer/faster Radeon for Final Fantasy XI's use, as I don't understand why I would think PowerVR is better or more "Amiga like feeling" than my Radeon 8500DV card.
>10. We've come up with Amiga 5200, Amiga 5600 and even Amiga 6000. What should the name be of this new Amiga?
It's your product, get a license for the Amiga name and it's your decision what number to put next to it.
>11. Is Amiga NeXT a bad or good name for this project?
You've got two tradmarks there to sort out... I personally don't like it, it'll eventually be replaced by something, what will that be called, Amiga NeXT 2, NeXT NeXT, ??? I also do not like year-based names such as Windows95/98/2000, Picasso96, etc. so please don't make an Amiga 2004...
>12. Any comment? What sort of companies would be interested in this project? How about Dreamcast game compatibility? The option to use DC controllers for this "new" entertaining Amiga?
If I wanted Dreamcast game compatibility, I'd buy a Dreamcast. Making your computer DC compatible would take longer and be more expensive than to check if there's already a software emulator out there that you could port, and wouldn't be useful to most Amiga users. DC controllers, I don't see much DC stuff in stores these days for me to buy them. I'd rather be able to use a nice easy to get PC USB pad, or perhaps Playstation pad. Personally, I'm very weary of the good old Amiga way of having to pay literally 10 times the price for anything at all compared to the equivalent PC product, that's an Amiga "feel" I won't miss. I'll pay 10x for the motherboard, but then hopefully everything else will be a reasoable comparison to PC stuff, price-wise. I'm not going to pay tons for a special Amiga keyboard when a perfectly suitable PC keyboard only costs US$15 or so. I'm not going to pay lots and lots and lots for a special custom graphics chip (made from an off-the-shelf PC PowerVR chip??) that's already middle-aged in computer time, when a newer and faster and more featured chip costs less. (Compare current Radeon prices to the US$550 I paid for PicassoIV) I'm sure as heck not going to pay big bucks for a custom case or power supply, I'd probably want a different case anyway, and an easy/inexpensive to replace power supply for when the original fails. And I like the nice Logitec cordless mouse withthe extra buttons, which only comes in USB/PS/2 (native USB with PS/2 adaptor again) and not in Amiga mouse connector form, though I do seem to have a spare PS/2->Amiga mouse adaptor laying around, but why not just have that built into the motherboard at this point??
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OT:
Worryingly few people in this thread know what a Zipstick is. It is the Amiga joystick, ladies and gentlemen!
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that_punk_guy wrote:
OT:
Worryingly few people in this thread know what a Zipstick is. It is the Amiga joystick, ladies and gentlemen!
Nah... I had a Cheetah 123... and then a Jet fighter thingie.
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AmiDelf wrote:
Negative responces to this will be ignored.
Why?? not listening to criticism has been the downfall of many companies and lead to many bad products.
Don`t dismiss them just because you don`t like what is said.
Anyway, onto the answers.
1. Stick to a standard form factor, it gives end users more choices of case. But why does the Power VR chip have to be on the motherboard? Integrated gfx chips share system memory which always limits their performance.
2. OS4 or MOS?? Depends if you can get a licence for either..
3. Ditch Zorro slots, far too slow and outdated. Fast enought for a 68k machine, but not a PPC one.
4.Amiga gameports..why?? Since there`s no amiga chipset, many old games etc won`t run on this machine anyway.
But maybe an adapter to plug them into an analogue gameport.
5. USB and PS2.
6. Hate to say this, but use a standard PC keyboard..
Let the end users have a choice in case/keyboard and mouse..
7. Why stick to PowerVR? whats wrong with an OEM AGP card..or at a push a PCI one?
8. The A4000T case is probably waaaaaaay too big for the average user. See the answer to Q6.
9.
What price would you give for such Amiga?
Dunno.. everything you suggest just screams "custom made,small production run" which means bloody expensive.
For a motherboard+CPU bundle, I wouldn`t pay much more than the price of a Peg II.
10.What should the name be of this new Amiga?
The Amiga 1/2 ;-)
11. Bad..
12. Leave the DC controller to an add-on adapter.
Forget about direct DC game compatibility..that`s what emulators are for.
Make the motherboard as simple as possible, don`t go adding stuff that only a few users will want, you can always make it an optional add-on module.
Try and keep the custom stuff to a minimum, and use "off the shelf" parts wherever possible, it`ll lower development time, and lower the end price too.
Otherwise by the time it`s released, it`ll be as outdated as a A500 is now, and the cost will drive people away.
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Hmm about the DC compatibility: Good luck getting the Proprietary Yamaha GD-ROM disks to read in standard CD-ROM drives or DVD-ROM drives, since the GD disks are not compatible with either format. I wish I could back up my DC games, though. :-( :-(
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I currently don't have time to read the whole thread but if you're serious about this then you should try to get the AAA design. There was much stuff already done, and this would make a lot of democoders happy. I'm not into electronics at all but he design of the AAAchipset could be used on a PCI card from what I recall from old discussions about this. The demoscene and retro lovers alone would be the only market for it in my opinion. Maybe some other very little niche stuff... The Amiga's copper is unique and would allow stuff like dgraggable screens. Maybe some future AOS4, MOS users want that feature. Maybe there are also very interesting gfx effects that are more easily achieved with the Amiga chipset also...
By the way, I think AAA was to be compatible with ECS only and not AGA, but after all time that has passed so many demos use AGA and coders learned to bang AGA directly that I think it should be AGA compatible.
Best of luck to you, if you're serious you'll have a hard time.
By the way, let me also suggest that you don't give up important stuff in your life to do this, I've done similar things and it's stuuuupiddd......do it in part time just for the pleasure, and we'll talk in ten years... :-D Unless you can convince Dave Haynie to help you... 8-)
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1. Custom, small. ITX?
2. AROS.
3. No. How about mini PCI?
4. Yes, but can be done thru USB with an adaptor.
5. USB (& PS/2?).
6. Why waste of time & resources for a custom keyboard? Except for a drop in A1200 mobo. :-D
7. If PowerPC is the processor why not choose a graphics chipset that is already compatable? Or use a processor that is compatible with this chipset.
8. I would prefer an ITX or an A1200 drop in.
9. Make it as cheap as possible. Make it small :-D
10. Why use Amiga name? Those who will buy it will know its an Amiga incantation. Something cool & unique!
11. Bad - could get you sued, besides its already been used.
12. Stick with as much off the shelf stuff as possible for ease of developement, support and cost saving. Remember, The OS will make or break any hardware you make in regards to that Amiga feel.
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WOW....
Certinly an impressive ammount of replies.
So, here's my 2 cents!
As for the name, Amiga is copyrighted, so call it something original like:
The Miggy 6000?
Or just call it Agnus?
We all know what they mean, and it would be a cool inside joke!
As for Dreamcast compatibility, that would of been cool a few years ago, but aim higher- the Gamecube would be a more realistic goal. The disks can be read (with a little tweeking) on any DVD ROM drive.....
Best of luck on the new project, I wish you nothing but the best, my friend!
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Only some questions of myselves:
What is the point of using a PowerVR 1 ? It is oooold. Why not use a current 3D Chip ? Well, anyways, if it would be a recent chip based on the PowerVR that would of course be preferred.
Did you check if Hardware documentation for the PowerVR is available anywhere ? If not I'd go for a different chipset (Radeon comes to my mind, as
to whatever you want to go - OS 4 or MOS - both
are supporting Radeon). At least for 3D new Drivers
would need to be developed... not sure if SNAP supports the later versions of PowerVR (and I think the first one is pointless) or not, did you check this ?
You should better check this before limiting yourselves to a specific 3D Hardware.
I do not think using A4000T Tower-case is a good
idea. There are tower-systems (ATX-based) which
are much more professional (as how easy it is
to exchange hardware). A special-boing-ball-wielding
tower :) would of course be an idea... but I am sure you could work something out with a tower-case-maker...
BTW: Basically all 3D Chips are "Custom Chips" :) If you look at how to access them from the "low level" - without standard drivers - there is nothing "standard" in them. Custom Chips means just "Chip produced for a specific purpose", there is absolutely no "Magic" in it.
I think Zorro should be scrapped. Even Dave Haynie
told this some while ago...
Steffen
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1. Stay with a standard size for the motherboard... Unless, you're thinking of making some sort of drop-in replacements for Amiga cases. However, this would mean different form factors and cost increases. It might be best to just stick to standard ATX, or possibly MiniITX. ;)
2. Whatever OS is more complete and stable. If possible, add compatibility to both. ;)
3. It would be "neat", but I don't see much use of Zorro slots. There is not much hardware that aren't available in PCI format. The Video Toaster requires a video slot and the Amiga custom chipsets, so that's out of the question.
It might be best to look at a way to implement Zorro slots as a seperate expansion. (PCI Card?)
4. Would be nice to be able to use my CD32 joysticks... ;) I'm not sure about Amiga Mice, since I tend to be partial to optical mice now-a-days.
5. I'm using a PC adapter keyboard on my Amiga anyway. I would state that PS2 might be best. However if not available, then go with USB. ;)
6. PC keyboard works for me. Perhaps bundle some stickers to relabel PC keyboards keys to Amiga equivalents.
7. Depends on cost. Is PowerVR3 that much more powerful?
8. The A4000T is quite big. I think it would be nice to be able to offer various solutions from full, mid towers down to something like a desktop computer. The problem with tower-setups is that monitors never seem to be high enough. With desktop machines with a monitor on top, the screen is generally a good height. ;)
9. Price? That's a bit difficult to say. What is your target audience? What are the targetted specs?
10. I don't know about name. Are you planning on getting licensing for the name?
11. Iffy.
12. Dreamcast compatibility would be nice, especially with the homebrew development happening on the Dreamcast. Yet, I don't know how well that can work if you're going for PowerPC CPU? Using Dreamcast Joysticks would be neat, but many people complained about the DC JoyPads. (I tend to like them myself). I don't know how you can use the Analogue stick though? Would VMU's do anything?
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After reading through all the answers given in this thread I have come to the conclusion that the 'NeXT Amiga' AmiDelf is looking for is in fact an AmigaOne or Pegasos with a PowerVR-based graphics card. All given answers are remarkably similar; differences are easily resolved.
Privately, I think that the whole idea was about creating a machine which allowed people to take explicit control of the hardware again. I would consider that experience part of the vaunted 'Amiga feeling' which was supposed to be recreated. The funny thing is that it is still possible: nothing is stopping you from hacking up your own fully customised OS on stock PC hardware, and 'taking over the machine' whenever you feel like doing so. It would mean you learn i386- or PPC-assembly (which in my opinion look quirky compared to m68k-code), but that is a small price to pay. Of course, much of the hardware would be undocumented, but that never stopped demo and game programmers from mucking about with AGA.
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1. ATX, micro/mini/femto/whateverATX. BTX. Whatever standard formfactor(s) you think people want.
2. Whatever the user chooses to install.
3. No. Zorro is a deprecated antique custom interface which costs extra money only for the "benefit" of using deprecated antique custom hardware. If you want Zorro, use an Amiga or build a PCI-to-Zorro adapter instead.
4. No. See 3. Use an Amiga or a Catweasel if you're not happy with PS/2/USB peripherals.
5. Current keyboards use USB and/or PS/2. So, USB and PS/2.
6. Whatever the stores sell and the user chooses.
7. Huh? An AGP and/or PCI-X slot should take care of that. If you must have onboard graphics, pick something mid-range from ATI or nVIDIA.
8. Whatever case the user chooses.
9. If it's much more than $1000 for a complete computer comparable to an up to date PC, then don't bother.
10. Who cares? Blazemonger? Trogdor? If you're gonna call your motherboard/computer/whatever something with "Amiga" in it, you need to own the trademark or get permission (license) from whoever the owners will be in 2104 when the project is finished...
11. Two existing and unrelated trademarks from two different companies? Not the brightest idea.
12. The Amiga is dead. If you're not planning something innovative and brand new (Zorro? Amiga mice?? PowerVR??? Sheesh.) that will offer any advantages to and STAY ahead of the rest of the hardware market, then let nVIDIA, ATI, Apple, Asus, et c. run the hardware race and sit back and enjoy the ride.
If I had a couple of hundred million $ laying around, I'd spend it on vintage cars, a collection of experimental WW2 German armour and airplanes, and a moderately sized island in the Pacific instead. :)
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I thank you all for your contribution to this project. Let the answeres roll inn.
At this time, I am creating a team. If your interested in this project and wants to help out, send me a PM here on www.amiga.org
We need people who/wich knows hardware very well, people with contacts, people who would love to give this project a hand.
And again. Thanks for your contribution. In the end. On Sunday evening, this questions will be taken tougether and reveal what this project is aiming at.
Regards,
Michal, www.amigaworld.org
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@AmiDelf
Nice intro page on your website AmiDelf, but looking at it the Amiga NeXT does look a bit.. off..
How about Amiga Lorraine ? Or just Lorraine :-D
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@Amidelf
I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but what's the obsession with the PowerVR chipset? It's yesterdays news dude. Sure the tile rendering was a neat idea, but hardware has moved on and the memory bandwidth issue that tile rendering addressed (quite neatly) is no longer an issue.
Go for an AGP solution, IMHO.
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@Karlos
Actually it still is an issue, as ATI and nVidia have spent a lot of silicon trying to by-pass PowerVR's patents on the process. nVidia bought 3Dfx just for 3Dfx's patent for a similar process, which is used in today's 5900FX.
But none of them are as good as PVR's technique, well worth investigating as the PVR just lacks a few functions to be turned into a modern day competitor. (you're comparing 4-pipeline solutions running at 300Mhz+ with a 1-pipeline solution running at 133Mhz, imagine if you superscale the PVR and ramped up the clock speed)
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While I think it would be cool to see another Amiga out I fail to see why we would need or wand yet another Amiga like system released at a time like this. Why split into a third group? Why not just design a card for the AmigaOne with the PVR chip and write some good working drivers?
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AmiDelf wrote:
I thank you all for your contribution to this project. Let the answeres roll inn.
At this time, I am creating a team. If your interested in this project and wants to help out, send me a PM here on www.amiga.org
We need people who/wich knows hardware very well, people with contacts, people who would love to give this project a hand.
And again. Thanks for your contribution. In the end. On Sunday evening, this questions will be taken tougether and reveal what this project is aiming at.
Regards,
Michal, www.amigaworld.org
There are two ways to look at AmiDelf's ideas...
1. He wants an upagraded Clasic Amiga.
2. He wants to build a NextGen machine.
But:-
1. No point, Amiga Hardware is dead, and we have two PPC solutions already (not to mention the countless x86 systems one could use with AROS or emualtion.)
2. That's cool, but then why is he looking at old hardware? He should be thiking about Cell based architectures, ie future technologies. And he would need pots of cash for that or a really good idea.
Which is it?