Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: direktorn on May 02, 2013, 07:45:46 PM
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Ok,
This might be an unusual topic. But I have fell in love with my miggy again, this time it's not the real deal.
I have three A4000 so I'm a genuine Amiga lover, done a lot of work for the community in the past, so don't get me wrong.
But running WinUAE just works so perfect. My 2560x1200 screen it beutiful. Running mp3, torrents, browsers, msn, facebook all works like a charm.
Most of the times when you think about emulation you think about a crippled experience where you never actually reach the full experience - think about when you tried to run NES 8-bit emulators on your A1200 and you hope'd that most games would work and they didn't..
WinAUE even allows me to run UAE within the Amiga and watch demos at full speed but with no sound. That I'd call impressive.
Last weekend I sat up to about 4AM and forgot time and place and played with all the "new" versions of apps that had came out after I left the Amiga in the dark about 8-10 years ago. Impressive.
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congratulations
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Tried Shapeshifter in WinUAE on my laptop - it ran benchmarks 15 - 50x faster than Mac Quadra.
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I have a dedicated computer just as an emulation machine. Windows shell has been replaced with amigaOS3.X Seeing things like amigakit and Amigasys I think really gives one a look at what AmigaOS could have probably evolved into.
Too bad instead we got hyperion now keeping OS4 on 10+ year old hardware (for the most part) that costs more than modern x86 hardware.
Genius business move.
I really think if Silly Billy had instead opted to direct hyperion to go for x86 Amiga scene would be so much better off now... Too little too late now.
Its nice though to use an emulated machine and amiga os3.x, especially if you render things or actually need real horsepower. I would have killed to have such rendering power on my old A500.
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Well if you want to go back in the time machine forget mcbill and that tosser fleecy. Jim Collas. If he was allowed to do what he wanted to do with the amiga (go to a linux kernel) things would have turned out much better.
Or if Morphos had been "OS4" as it was Supposed to be things would certainly be a lot better.
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Yeah, for productivity Amiga applications (i.e. rendering, graphics, desktop publishing, audio work) WinUAE is great.
I've even enjoyed lots of games on it without a problem.
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Yeah I never understood the idiots in charge, especially in regards to morphos. Gee, we need a new os that will run on powerpc... *******S here it is.
Na, were going to pay someone else to remake the wheel instead, and get tied up in legal battles for years.
Wankers.
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At this point the whole thing is entirely ****ed, so I can't fathom why McBill is still behind the curtain demanding millions (or at least Thousands) for what is essentially a useless IP. I mean, he got what, 1 license from that guy in South Florida, and then he's got the Cloanto people but that can't be doing more than generating pizza money.
Sad to think that had C= pushed halfway hard, there would *be* no Apple - I think it was Gassee who said that for about 5 minutes, Apple was terrified when the Amiga came out. Then they realized it was Commodore's marketing behind it and were just as suddenly relieved.
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But running WinUAE just works so perfect. My 2560x1200 screen it beutiful. Running mp3, torrents, browsers, msn, facebook all works like a charm.
Yeah, but for playing classic Amiga games it sucks! For instance, the sound is not synchronous with the game.
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Yeah I never understood the idiots in charge, especially in regards to morphos. Gee, we need a new os that will run on powerpc... *******S here it is.
Na, were going to pay someone else to remake the wheel instead, and get tied up in legal battles for years.
Wankers.
Waht's there not to understand?
Bill wanted the Apple model: control the OS AND the hardware.
As a business why wouldn't you want the whole enchilada?
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if you do it wrong you get nothing...
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Yeah, but for playing classic Amiga games it sucks! For instance, the sound is not synchronous with the game.
Most people don't care, because they haven't used a real Amiga in so long that they don't notice. Eventually you get used to the way the emulator works and the real thing feels wrong.
So it's not necessarily a bad thing that it's not exactly in sync. You'll find that using an lcd monitor gives a different feel as well, because there is often some lag with those. One of the manufacturers (can't remember if it's ATI or Nvidia) has a bug in their drivers that if you just enable vsync then you get a three frame lag. It's like an enforced triple buffering.
I have real hardware and don't tend to use winuae, but then I don't often use the real hardware these days as it's much more inconvenient. I would use my c128 more, but the power supply needs repairing and I haven't gotten round to that.
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Not sure what lag people are having, have setup a WinUAE box and it is bang on. The exact same experience I get when using my A1200 with an Indivision.
Except on the WinUAE box hardware limits are no longer an issue, especially on a modern PC.
I have it setup on a core 2 duo box which handles it really well. Super quick.
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Yeah, but for playing classic Amiga games it sucks! For instance, the sound is not synchronous with the game.
I do not play games but I have watched all my top demos where timing is even more critical than on games and they have so far not failed. Can you point me to a game that does not work?
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Yeah, but for playing classic Amiga games it sucks! For instance, the sound is not synchronous with the game.
Depends on your hardware. I have low latency audio hardware, which has has lag down at between 5ms and 12ms for OctaMED in WinUAE. If you claim to be able to hear that... You are deluding yourself.
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Yeah, but for playing classic Amiga games it sucks! For instance, the sound is not synchronous with the game.
Seriously? I 've heard this complaint for years, but I've NEVER experienced it (and I have both real Amigas and UAE). I think it's just a matter of people not configuring (or at least tweaking) their UAE setup properly. I get no controller or sound latency. In fact, I think if I hid the PC somewhere and set up a real Amiga in front of the monitor, I could fool a real Amigan into thinking I was running from the actual hardware (the new WinUAE can even do scan-lines and CRT blur like a real 1084).
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I get no controller or sound latency.
You may believe that, but it is impossible.
On an Amiga you can change the display in realtime, so you could change one of the palette colours or play a sound and then read the joystick on every scan line and instantly change another palette colour or play another sound.
With usb the default polling rate is 125hz, you can increase it but I'm not aware that winuae reads the state more often than every screen refresh anyway.
It is very difficult to keep the sound and video synchronised because of latency in the drivers and lcd monitor. You only present an entire frame of video or audio at a time, so there will always be some form of latency.
You might not notice, but it is there. Some people perceive it stronger than others.
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You may believe that, but it is impossible.
On an Amiga you can change the display in realtime, so you could change one of the palette colours or play a sound and then read the joystick on every scan line and instantly change another palette colour or play another sound.
With usb the default polling rate is 125hz, you can increase it but I'm not aware that winuae reads the state more often than every screen refresh anyway.
It is very difficult to keep the sound and video synchronised because of latency in the drivers and lcd monitor. You only present an entire frame of video or audio at a time, so there will always be some form of latency.
You might not notice, but it is there. Some people perceive it stronger than others.
True. Outperform is one thing, but lag and performance are different concepts, often mixed up by people. You can have a program running 50x times faster and even then it can be several frames behind. In fact, less than one frame delay is enough to modify how a game control feels. I can only stand the real thing and FPGA implementations, wich have zero added delay.
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I can only stand the real thing and FPGA implementations, wich have zero added delay.
While I accept that there are limitations to emulation in terms of latency, I don't get the view point that the latency is actually so detrimental that it's impossible to use them.
I think the look of the graphics on an LCD is far more distracting, although most LCD TV's have latency as well. Unless you're using an FPGA on a 1084 then it's going to spoil the experience far more.
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I'm using FPGA on a CRT monitor (not a 1084 as mine died years ago, but the Minimig supports 15Hz modes and I have an SCART cable for it so I can connect it to CRT tv). The Minimig includes optional scanlines, so I don't think I could tell it from a 1084 image.
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While I accept that there are limitations to emulation in terms of latency, I don't get the view point that the latency is actually so detrimental that it's impossible to use them.
I think the look of the graphics on an LCD is far more distracting, although most LCD TV's have latency as well. Unless you're using an FPGA on a 1084 then it's going to spoil the experience far more.
We are talking 6ms or less on a modern LCD screen, an eye would never be able to spot that, I'd like to se someone with an reaction time of less than 6ms, most will not be able to respond quicker then 600ms.
I'm a gamer, one of the best in Battlefield2/3 and I had my share on Counter-Strike and I'd challenge anyone saying you can notice lag on my WinUAE rig.
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It's all just electrons moving through silicon, the silicon used is irrelevant if it does the job.
(http://www2.jogjabelajar.org/modul/how/d/diode/diode-periodic.gif)
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I'm using FPGA on a CRT monitor (not a 1084 as mine died years ago, but the Minimig supports 15Hz modes and I have an SCART cable for it so I can connect it to CRT tv). The Minimig includes optional scanlines, so I don't think I could tell it from a 1084 image.
Screen curvature, black level, upscaling blur, lack of interlace flicker, dot mask.
Scanlines on it's own doesn't really cut it, it hides the blockiness of the image but it's far from an lcd.
We are talking 6ms or less on a modern LCD screen, an eye would never be able to spot that, I'd like to se someone with an reaction time of less than 6ms, most will not be able to respond quicker then 600ms.
The upscaler of alot of TV's adds lag of a few frames, which is why rythym games on modern platforms (guitar hero etc) have calibration screens so that you can reverse the effect. Even without that alot of LCD monitors will take a few frames for pixels to go from full white to full black (regardless of what the ms actually claims).
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Screen curvature, black level, upscaling blur, lack of interlace flicker, dot mask.
Scanlines on it's own doesn't really cut it, it hides the blockiness of the image but it's far from an lcd.
The upscaler of alot of TV's adds lag of a few frames, which is why rythym games on modern platforms (guitar hero etc) have calibration screens so that you can reverse the effect. Even without that alot of LCD monitors will take a few frames for pixels to go from full white to full black (regardless of what the ms actually claims).
Thats why a native Amiga with LCD is just nothing more than en Emulator :)
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I do not upscale when I'm running Amiga games, I run them in a window.
You rarley see a game that goes from white/black instantlly and LCD has simular effects as the phosphor takes some time to change.
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You may believe that, but it is impossible.
Well, yes. Of course I understand that absolute zero latency is physically impossible, but there is a point where it become perceptually negligible (i.e. not perceivable) to humans. Heck, even the human nervous system has a level of latency built in (eg. for an electro-chemical signal to travel from one's brain to one's hand for a joystick push, and then for the incoming signal to the eye to be reprocessed by the brain, for instance). In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the "human nervous system latency" was the slowest link in the whole USB-emulator-LCD chain.
I don't notice any perceivable latency in my WinUAE system as compared to my real Amiga use - even when doing timing critical tasks such as MIDI music recording in Bars & Pipes where screen updates must occur when the music notes scroll by. And I went into this whole UAE thing very skeptical that it would be able to perform like a real Amiga in this regard - search for some of my old posts from pre-2008 and you will see I was anti-emulation and pro real hardware (heck, I still love real hardware, I've just been convinced that UAE is also up to the task if tweaked properly).
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I still prefer CRT's. Anyone with me on this? Yeah... CRT's don't work well with the modern OS's or the internet these days due to graphic/font anti-aliasing being on absolutely everything (which is to cater for non CRT displays of course) but I still feel they're the best for gaming. There's no latency, and the colour and contrast of CRT's still appeal to my eyes. The circuitry in CRT's drifts with age though and without adjustment ends up looking like crap, which doesn't help my case does it. LOL.
Nice to have both is what I say. We're living in an age where we're spoilt for choice... and we really shouldn't complain about choice. If we don't like modern computing then buy an old computer and download old software, or use UAE, or don't use UAE. I use both. :knuddel:
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I still prefer CRT's. Anyone with me on this? Yeah... CRT's don't work well with the modern OS's or the internet these days due to graphic/font anti-aliasing being on absolutely everything (which is to cater for non CRT displays of course) but I still feel they're the best for gaming. There's no latency, and the colour and contrast of CRT's still appeal to my eyes. The circuitry in CRT's drifts with age though and without adjustment ends up looking like crap, which doesn't help my case does it. LOL.
Nice to have both is what I say. We're living in an age where we're spoilt for choice... and we really shouldn't complain about choice. If we don't like modern computing then buy an old computer and download old software, or use UAE, or don't use UAE. I use both. :knuddel:
I bet you prefer vinyl over CD's or download to? ;-)
I guess this could be a battle between "warm" and "sharp". Analog has a tendency of being seen as a "warm" way, it goes back to analog amplifiers, vinyl etc. Digital is the nasty thing that converts everything to ugly 1's and 0's ;-)
But I'd prefer to use my full HD+3D projector over any CRT one, I'd prefer my warm Apple Cinema 30" display over anything analog. For me It's not about being "retro" it's about trying to a combination of old and new tech - and that combination for me is priceless.
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Not sure what lag people are having, have setup a WinUAE box and it is bang on. The exact same experience I get when using my A1200 with an Indivision.
Except on the WinUAE box hardware limits are no longer an issue, especially on a modern PC.
I have it setup on a core 2 duo box which handles it really well. Super quick.
OK, can you explain which WinUae (sound) configuration you have, please?
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Seriously? I 've heard this complaint for years, but I've NEVER experienced it (and I have both real Amigas and UAE). I think it's just a matter of people not configuring (or at least tweaking) their UAE setup properly. I get no controller or sound latency. In fact, I think if I hid the PC somewhere and set up a real Amiga in front of the monitor, I could fool a real Amigan into thinking I was running from the actual hardware (the new WinUAE can even do scan-lines and CRT blur like a real 1084).
The same counts for you:
Can you explain which WinUae (sound) configuration you have, please?
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Depends on your hardware. I have low latency audio hardware, which has has lag down at between 5ms and 12ms for OctaMED in WinUAE. If you claim to be able to hear that... You are deluding yourself.
And the same counts for you:
Can you explain which WinUae (sound) configuration you have, please?
Oh and I'm really not deluting myself... ;)
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I bet you prefer vinyl over CD's or download to?
Yes, music prefers vinyl as well. ;)
Like you say, it's about personal choice and freedom...for which we should all be grateful.
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We are talking 6ms or less on a modern LCD screen, an eye would never be able to spot that, I'd like to se someone with an reaction time of less than 6ms, most will not be able to respond quicker then 600ms.
I'm a gamer, one of the best in Battlefield2/3 and I had my share on Counter-Strike and I'd challenge anyone saying you can notice lag on my WinUAE rig.
600ms? That's 0.6 seconds...I think all of us here (being Amiga fans) have quicker responses than that. :laugh1:
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600ms? That's 0.6 seconds...I think all of us here (being Amiga fans) have quicker responses than that. :laugh1:
Indeed. Most people are twice as fast as that, with a maximum of about 0.2 seconds.
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I like both the real deal and Emulation both have issues when it comes to compatibility as some programs weren't written for 2.0 or 1.3 or 3.1 or whatever the case maybe. It's all good.
But I especially like Amidude's b0ing Avatar :-) Puts a smile on my dial
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Emulation, especially winuae is excellent these days. BUT, in my opinion it's just doesn't give the same feeling as doing it on old hardware.
I showed a friend who used to have miggy's, Jesus Christ Motocross the other week on my A4k. He was amazed! Had I done that via emulation on a PC, it wouldn't have had the same impact.
I value emulation but it will never replace any of my hardware.
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emulation, especially winuae is excellent these days. But, in my opinion it's just doesn't give the same feeling as doing it on old hardware.
I showed a friend who used to have miggy's, jesus christ motocross the other week on my a4k. He was amazed! Had i done that via emulation on a pc, it wouldn't have had the same impact.
I value emulation but it will never replace any of my hardware.
thank you!!
Every time I grin when I go online in my real A1200 and chat using WookieChat or go Aweb or even use the javascript in the browser. But I do not grin when I do it in my WinUAE. Also I do not care what anyone else says, I believe that PPC AmigaOS 4.1 is a real Amiga and I have complete intention of getting that. I will have the best of two "things". I will have the Amiga 1200 classic 68k Apollo 1260 @ 80 Mhz as the best 68k Amiga out there and I will have either SAM or whatever new hardware PPC for AmigaOS 4.1 as the newest and latest PPC Amiga system.
Erm...AmiDude..your avatar is a little uh..should we see Rate A+. Uh...ok.
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I use WinUAE to support my real Amiga's - Prep drives, test out software etc etc. I agree, emulation just isn't the same thing... but it has its uses, and for some it's all they'll have, and one day a few decades down the line it'll be all that is left of the Amiga as nearly all units of hardware will eventually be destroyed. This is where replicators from Star Trek will come in handy. :)
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I don't notice any perceivable latency in my WinUAE system as compared to my real Amiga use - even when doing timing critical tasks such as MIDI music recording in Bars & Pipes where screen updates must occur when the music notes scroll by.
MIDI has it's own latency on real hardware, so you're probably not going to notice much difference.
I use both real hardware and emulators & have my name down for an fpga replay. I know the pro's and con's of each and tbh I'm not bothered with the latency of emulators on a PC. Besides, I find that using a keyboard to emulate a joystick has a lower physical latency than wrestling with a competition pro joystick.
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The same counts for you:
Can you explain which WinUae (sound) configuration you have, please?
As I have explained it many times before on Amiga.org, I don't feel like re-typing it all again. Here is one of my old posts:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=728120&postcount=23
Read the whole thread. I was able to solve this guy's latency problems.
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one day a few decades down the line it'll be all that is left of the Amiga as nearly all units of hardware will eventually be destroyed. This is where replicators from Star Trek will come in handy. :)
I dunno, personally I'm still hoping that one day a few decades down the line all these people who've hoarded up all the A4000's will kick it, and that I'll still be alive to be able to afford one, LOL. ;)
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As I have explained it many times before on Amiga.org, I don't feel like re-typing it all again. Here is one of my old posts:
http://www.amiga.org/forums/showpost.php?p=728120&postcount=23
Read the whole thread. I was able to solve this guy's latency problems.
Thanks ral-clan. I'll try these settings and see if it solves my problems.
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But I especially like Amidude's b0ing Avatar :-) Puts a smile on my dial
I know what you mean! She has a really nice *ss! :D
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I know what you mean! She has a really nice *ss! :D
I dunno we allowed XXX in amiga.org forum! What about the children?
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I use WinUAE to support my real Amiga's - Prep drives, test out software etc etc. I agree, emulation just isn't the same thing... but it has its uses, and for some it's all they'll have, and one day a few decades down the line it'll be all that is left of the Amiga as nearly all units of hardware will eventually be destroyed. This is where replicators from Star Trek will come in handy. :)
Why would Amiga hardware be destroyed? I don't understand. Who goes smashing these hardware?
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600ms? That's 0.6 seconds...I think all of us here (being Amiga fans) have quicker responses than that. :laugh1:
yes over half a sec, If we met in person I'd like to challenge you for a duel ;)
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Yes, music prefers vinyl as well. ;)
Like you say, it's about personal choice and freedom...for which we should all be grateful.
True, we are not the same. I love my audio gears and I have worked in a HiFi store many, many years ago and had the pleasure to got introduced to Rotel, Alpine, JBL, Klipsch, Kef and even my friends at B&O. I never got stuck on Analog as I'm 36 and my vinyl collection is more or less 10 albums until I switched. Now I'm more into home chinema spent over €10.000 on these things.
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I dunno we allowed XXX in amiga.org forum! What about the children?
To put your mind at ease: There are no children here. Only adult lurkers. :p
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Why would Amiga hardware be destroyed? I don't understand. Who goes smashing these hardware?
Every time you turn your amiga on, you use up what is remaining of its functional existence :(
These machines have a finite life.
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Every time you turn your amiga on, you use up what is remaining of its functional existence :(
These machines have a finite life.
Maybe...but the finite "life" of these machines are in hundreds of years...by that time I would care less what happens to it as I will be dead. Also I am sure...somewhere along the line...someone out there will make a brand new spanking 68k hardware that out beats the classic anyways. To me...since it is here...I might as well use my Amiga 68k hardware till smoke comes from it.......don't go jumping at me...it is a figure of speaking here. What use is my classic Amiga if I am going to be so scared to use it..because it dies out every time it is used? No...I will use it...I want to play hours and hours and hours on my A1200 with Quake 2....I want to enjoy the new games NovaCoder is porting and I would like to try netsurf...I want to enjoy SDL AGA........I am not fretting on this in any shape or form. What I hate are the Amiga hoarders! Does a person really need 30 Amiga computers? What are you running here...an IT lab? No...these people should "share" by selling their excessive Amiga to other people who wish to own a real Amiga hardware for full blast experience. That is where I am pissed off..not the fact that for each use the Amiga hardware dies out.
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Ok,
WinAUE even allows me to run UAE within the Amiga and watch demos at full speed but with no sound. That I'd call impressive.
LMAO yeah "impressive" watching demos with no sound lulz. You CANNOT replicate watching an Amiga scene demo on Real Hardware with an RGB monitor with the Real Amigas analogue sound output. Period. End of story. Sure you can mimick the look on a lcd or crt with scanlines and crap but its not the same, the colors arent as rich for one. And there is no pc hardware out there that has the low end phat analogue amiga sound.
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Thanks ral-clan. I'll try these settings and see if it solves my problems.
Also be sure you're using a recent version of WinUAE.
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LMAO yeah "impressive" watching demos with no sound lulz. You CANNOT replicate watching an Amiga scene demo on Real Hardware with an RGB monitor with the Real Amigas analogue sound output. Period. End of story. Sure you can mimick the look on a lcd or crt with scanlines and crap but its not the same, the colors arent as rich for one. And there is no pc hardware out there that has the low end phat analogue amiga sound.
I think he's actually running Amiga demos on Amiga UAE from within the WinUAE emulation - which is pretty impressive...
WinUAE itself will run Amiga demos just fine - with sound...
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Posted twice, sorry: please remove.
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Why would Amiga hardware be destroyed? I don't understand. Who goes smashing these hardware?
Just like old cars, they get old... and unless you repair them, replace parts,... they are destroyed.
Anyway, UAE clearly outperforms real hardware, and have been since a long time. There's no need to argue. Of course, display is a little different than on the real thing, timing may have tiny differences. But seeing what you gain in exchange (speed, flexibility: in a single click you may be running any OS version/rom you want, any hardware: 68000 up to 68060) I have no problem saying that UAE replaced the Amiga for me. I'd be happy to play with the real thing for some time though, but having to have one expensive one myself, no way...
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With 3D Printing technology it will only be a matter of time before we could just print out a new classic Amiga.
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Maybe...but the finite "life" of these machines are in hundreds of years...by that time I would care less what happens to it as I will be dead.
Nor will anyone else care....they'll all get slung in the bin! Your 060 and Picasso and PPC cards...the lot! :(
Hundreds of years is a very optimistic view. IC's fail eventually under normal use. These "hoarders" are probably doing Amiga preservation a very large favour. ;)
Regarding hoarding, there's more than enough unwanted Amiga's out there anyway, so I can't say I have anything against them. Also, how do you define a hoarder? Is a person who owns every Amiga model (13 I think?) a hoarder? I'd call those people collectors not hoarders. There's more than enough Amiga's out there for everyone, so I don't see why you should have such strong negative feelings against them.
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Every time you turn your amiga on, you use up what is remaining of its functional existence :(
These machines have a finite life.
Naa, Classic Amigas are like Chuck Norris, both have successfully counted to infinity....
..Twice.
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Nor will anyone else care....they'll all get slung in the bin! Your 060 and Picasso and PPC cards...the lot! :(
Hundreds of years is a very optimistic view. IC's fail eventually under normal use. These "hoarders" are probably doing Amiga preservation a very large favour. ;)
Regarding hoarding, there's more than enough unwanted Amiga's out there anyway, so I can't say I have anything against them. Also, how do you define a hoarder? Is a person who owns every Amiga model (13 I think?) a hoarder? I'd call those people collectors not hoarders. There's more than enough Amiga's out there for everyone, so I don't see why you should have such strong negative feelings against them.
Definition of collectors are owning a single different module of the Amiga for the purpose of history or collectible reason. Definition of a hoarder are owning 30 of the same Amiga module and never using them..just for the purpose of...hoarding or keeping.
For example when ever I have fever of owning Commodore 64 again...I go to eBay and think hard if I want the C64s, C64, C128 or C128D module. When I am satisfied with my pick...I buy ONE SINGLE module of the Commodore 64 and that is that. It is what I did with the Apple IIgs for example. I bought only ONE Apple IIgs...not went and bought 50 Apple IIgs nor went and bought 10 Apple IIgs, 20 Apple IIc, 15 Apple II e, first I have no space...second one Apple II is more than enough...I wouldn't be able to use the other ones..and they do the same thing anyways...so why should I keep them? Someone out there would like to own one...
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Nor will anyone else care....they'll all get slung in the bin! Your 060 and Picasso and PPC cards...the lot! :(
............
I still don't understand why no one out there (by the time that happens) would be making a new modern 68k Amiga? Natami proofs it is possible. I am sure there will be a new Amiga 68k out there with better custom chip than AGA and that suppor these expansion cards.
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With 3D Printing technology it will only be a matter of time before we could just print out a new classic Amiga.
:laughing:
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Every time you turn your amiga on, you use up what is remaining of its functional existence :(
These machines have a finite life.
True, but we are not there yet..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KETi6FO565s&feature=player_embedded
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True, but we are not there yet..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KETi6FO565s&feature=player_embedded
Exactly...that is a 37 year old computer and still running like a horse...so I am not losing sleep for my A1200 :)
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For me, sometimes its not always all about performance. For some of these older machines there's appeal is seeing what results you can get on them. The almost, "instant on" nature, plus some other quirks of the physical device are some charateristics that cant be emulated as well.
Now having said that there's definately things I like about emulation too. As some here probably know Im a big amithlon fan. Having the sorts of raw grunt available to emulation on x86 systems can really freshen up OS3.x. making it not far removed from the NG options.
I love my a1200, but theyre just different kettles of fish.
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You CANNOT replicate watching an Amiga scene demo on Real Hardware with an RGB monitor with the Real Amigas analogue sound output. Period. End of story. Sure you can mimick the look on a lcd or crt with scanlines and crap but its not the same, the colors arent as rich for one. And there is no pc hardware out there that has the low end phat analogue amiga sound.
Richer colours are just a factor of the chroma signal strength (i.e. saturation setting). If you want richer colours in WinUAE, increase the saturation of the emulator's video output, or the colour setting of the monitor. Heck, there's nothing stopping you from using a CRT monitor with WinUAE....you could even use a TV card to output straight to a 1084 if you really wanted to.
As for the Paula's "phat analogue amiga sound"...the Paula is a digital chip, NOT analogue like the SID is. It operates in the digital realm then has an digital to analogue converter to feed audio signals out to the real world, just like any PC sound card or PC motherboard sound chip does (except the PC's A/D converter can operate in 8, 16 or 24 bits instead of just 8 bits).
I'm not saying that hardware Amigas are bad -- they're fantastic -- but I just think your arguments about why emulation cannot match the real thing are not based on sound information.
The only thing that emulation will never be able to match is the feeling of a real Amiga keyboard, sliding in a disk, the real Amiga mouse feel - i.e. the physical, tactile elements. But I'd bet that if you put a PC motherboard in an A500 case and ran WinUAE outputting to a CRT monitor, with a Keyrah adapter to the original keyboard, and some sort of adapter to allow you to use a real Amiga mouse, you could trick many people into believing that the hardware (i.e. circuits) inside was original.
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Richer colours are just a factor of the chroma signal strength (i.e. saturation setting). If you want richer colours in WinUAE, increase the saturation of the emulator's video output, or the colour setting of the monitor. Heck, there's nothing stopping you from using a CRT monitor with WinUAE....you could even use a TV card to output straight to a 1084 if you really wanted to.
As for the Paula's "phat analogue amiga sound"...the Paula is a digital chip, NOT analogue like the SID is. It operates in the digital realm then has an digital to analogue converter to feed audio signals out to the real world, just like any PC sound card or PC motherboard sound chip does (except the PC's A/D converter can operate in 8, 16 or 24 bits instead of just 8 bits).
I'm not saying that hardware Amigas are bad -- they're fantastic -- but I just think your arguments about why emulation cannot match the real thing are not based on sound information.
The only thing that emulation will never be able to match is the feeling of a real Amiga keyboard, sliding in a disk, the real Amiga mouse feel - i.e. the physical, tactile elements. But I'd bet that if you put a PC motherboard in an A500 case and ran WinUAE outputting to a CRT monitor, with a Keyrah adapter to the original keyboard, and some sort of adapter to allow you to use a real Amiga mouse, you could trick many people into believing that the hardware (i.e. circuits) inside was original.
Only problem here you have to boot through Windows first...that destroyed everything in there by itself. Making the desire for the real thing out beats your argument...at least for me it did.
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Only problem here you have to boot through Windows first...that destroyed everything in there by itself. Making the desire for the real thing out beats your argument...at least for me it did.
Yes you have to boot through Windows....or Linux to start UAE, but you can always make a minimal, stripped down installation where you don't even see the host OS. Other than the BIOS screen which displays when your computer turns on, you will be booting straight into AmigaOS. Maybe on some motherboards you can even disable the BIOS display screen - so straight from power-on you will only see AmigaOS booting. The Cloanto Amiga Forever CD can boot like this (just put it straight into your DVD drive, turn on the computer and you're straight into Amiga OS) and I'm sure it wouldn't be hard for people to hide the little linux boot screen that shows for a few seconds even with that setup.
Anyway, my point wasn't about the booting process, it was about the actual feel of the emulation when it was running as compared to an actual hardware Amiga when it was running. I'll bet if you had both a real A500 and an A500 empty case with PC/WinUAE inside it running the same game and outputting to identical monitors, set up side by side, then you sat a person in front to play both, few would be able to tell which was real hardware inside the case and which was emulation.
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For me, sometimes its not always all about performance. For some of these older machines there's appeal is seeing what results you can get on them. The almost, "instant on" nature, plus some other quirks of the physical device are some charateristics that cant be emulated as well.
Now having said that there's definately things I like about emulation too. As some here probably know Im a big amithlon fan. Having the sorts of raw grunt available to emulation on x86 systems can really freshen up OS3.x. making it not far removed from the NG options.
I love my a1200, but theyre just different kettles of fish.
I think you said it well. It seems we have to different kind of miggy-friendes here:
1.) The retro type that want to play and watch demos/games as it used to be 20 years ago, preferably on a TV with a RF-modulator or a RGB-cable. They are not any speedfreaks and had never owned a accelrator card in their lives.
2.) The kind I belongs to, that still insists and try to make my amiga a real-day-to-day workhorse. We love PPC and AmigaOS 4.1 and try to use AmigaOS for surfing the web, play games, mp3, listen to webradio. We never gave up and had faith for a long time and still thinks AmigaOS has a place beyond gaming.
My initial reason for creating this thread where not to create a blame war about how one should exerience the amiga platform, rather a post to say "hey Amiga still rocks!".
The real thing is still the real thing but not everyone has unlimited space in their homes to have unlimited computers. My PC is already hooked up to my amplifier and so to my flatscreen and my projector and with digital audio from HDMI.
For me it's the same with NES emulators, for two weeks ago I played Kid Icarus from start on my Windows box using a Wireless USB gamepad together with my projector, wow that worked great. Sure I could have hooked up NES to my amp and that would have worked to but would have taken me some time to setup, this was more a click-n-run thing.