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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Software Issues and Discussion => Topic started by: rabindranath72 on April 23, 2013, 10:45:00 AM
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Hi all,
Amiga newbie here (or rather, potential newbie as I haven't bought an A1200 yet!)
My main interest would be in OS software development (that is, creating an OS from scratch,) but before I plunge and buy the machine, I'd want to know if there is documentation specific to the A1200. I have seen there is an Amiga Hardware book, but it seems the latest version deals at most with Amiga 3000s and ECS. Did Commodore or third party ever release A1200 specific documentation and software development tools/libraries? I am used to DevPac on the Atari ST, is the Amiga version as good?
Thanks in advance,
Antonio
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Hi all,
Amiga newbie here (or rather, potential newbie as I haven't bought an A1200 yet!)
My main interest would be in OS software development (that is, creating an OS from scratch,) but before I plunge and buy the machine, I'd want to know if there is documentation specific to the A1200. I have seen there is an Amiga Hardware book, but it seems the latest version deals at most with Amiga 3000s and ECS. Did Commodore or third party ever release A1200 specific documentation and software development? I am used to DevPac on the Atari ST, is the Amiga version as good?
Thanks in advance,
Antonio
Hi
Ni specific AGA book, but there is document and coders to help.
One is included in Asmpro.
Devpac is not as good if you use the Atari monochrome monitor but in Amiga you can multitask :)
Kamelito
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Thanks!
So no official documentation to speak of. That's a pity :(
Indeed I use a mono monitor on my Atari. And MiNT (so I too have multitasking) :D
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ROM Kernel Manuals,
Amiga Technologies/H and P used to sell documentation on a CD (Amiga Developer CD)
There was a Geek Gadgets CD that also contained documentation.
I'm not a coder, but I remember these things.
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ROM Kernel Manuals,
Amiga Technologies/H and P used to sell documentation on a CD (Amiga Developer CD)
There was a Geek Gadgets CD that also contained documentation.
I'm not a coder, but I remember these things.
+1
I have the "Developer CD 2.1." which contains documentation up to 3.5.
I would recommend to get it from somewhere (propably f.e. it is still available from Vesalia)
here is the link with description:
http://www.vesalia.de/d_developer2.htm
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+1
I have the "Developer CD 2.1." which contains documentation up to 3.5.
I would recommend to get it from somewhere (propably f.e. it is still available from Vesalia)
here is the link with description:
http://www.vesalia.de/d_developer2.htm
Thanks for the info.
But is that only OS information? While that's nice, I am more interested in the actual hardware information (e.g. registers, architecture etc.)
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Thanks for the info.
But is that only OS information? While that's nice, I am more interested in the actual hardware information (e.g. registers, architecture etc.)
"Revised Amiga ROM Kernel Reference Manuals in AmigaGuide format"
that should include "hardware reference" but i am not sure here at the moment because I am personally more on the "software-side". Perhaps someone here knows it or I could look at it.
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You might want to consider the fact that every Amiga OS version up to 3.9 was not AGA-specific, but could be run from every Amiga model in existence (properly expanded in some cases).. ;)
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"Revised Amiga ROM Kernel Reference Manuals in AmigaGuide format"
that should include "hardware reference" but i am not sure here at the moment because I am personally more on the "software-side". Perhaps someone here knows it or I could look at it.
That would be a huge help, thanks! (only if it's not too much of an hassle, of course!)
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That would be a huge help, thanks! (only if it's not too much of an hassle, of course!)
No problem. i will look at it and send you a PM
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I have PM you, perhaps you can look at the link and say if it is good for you
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"Revised Amiga ROM Kernel Reference Manuals in AmigaGuide format"
that should include "hardware reference" but i am not sure here at the moment because I am personally more on the "software-side". Perhaps someone here knows it or I could look at it.
http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/amiga-books.htm
https://www.google.com/search?q=Amiga+guru+book+filetype%3Atorrent
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Elowar's Amiga programming doc site: http://amigadev.elowar.com/
Hardware programming part: http://amigadev.elowar.com/read/ADCD_2.1/Hardware_Manual_guide/node0000.html
The hardware programming part is OCS and ECS only, but you have to know that stuff anyway to program for AGA.
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That would be a huge help, thanks! (only if it's not too much of an hassle, of course!)
I found this:
"IIRC there was never an AGA-updated revision of HRM or similar from official sources? Or am I mistaken?
That's correct. Reasons for that were rather silly IMHO, they didn't give out updated HRM's because they wanted "hardware hacking to die"."
It seems there is no updated official reference for AGA
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That would be a huge help, thanks! (only if it's not too much of an hassle, of course!)
perhaps this:
http://aminet.net/package/docs/help/aga_guide
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Comrade J's How to Code has AGA docs.
http://www.mways.co.uk/amiga/howtocode/
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Thanks for the info guys!
Is AGA the only relevant piece of hardware different from the rest? I'd say, for example, that PCMCIA hardware is also new w.r.t. the other Amiga models. And what about the DMA, blitter, copper etc.?
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Thanks for the info guys!
Is AGA the only relevant piece of hardware different from the rest? I'd say, for example, that PCMCIA hardware is also new w.r.t. the other Amiga models. And what about the DMA, blitter, copper etc.?
The AGA chipset is mostly backwards compatible to OCS/ECS as it was a minor evolution of the hardware.
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Thanks for the info guys!
Is AGA the only relevant piece of hardware different from the rest? I'd say, for example, that PCMCIA hardware is also new w.r.t. the other Amiga models. And what about the DMA, blitter, copper etc.?
I found another nice page:
http://www.bombjack.org/commodore/amiga/amiga-commodore/
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Yeah I have got those documents, too; but nothing really specific about the A1200 :(
I suppose if Amiga experts like you guys here know nothing about these documents, I suppose they never existed. It reminds me the policy Apple had about its Macintosh machines; the first models up to the Plus were well documented, both from a hardware and software point of view. But if you try to get info on later models...good luck.
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Yeah I have got those documents, too; but nothing really specific about the A1200 :(
I suppose if Amiga experts like you guys here know nothing about these documents, I suppose they never existed. It reminds me the policy Apple had about its Macintosh machines; the first models up to the Plus were well documented, both from a hardware and software point of view. But if you try to get info on later models...good luck.
and this?
http://amiga-manuals.xiik.net/amiga.php
nice design btw :-)
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there is schematics with the hardware layout of A1200
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Yeah I have got those documents, too; but nothing really specific about the A1200 :(
I suppose if Amiga experts like you guys here know nothing about these documents, I suppose they never existed. It reminds me the policy Apple had about its Macintosh machines; the first models up to the Plus were well documented, both from a hardware and software point of view. But if you try to get info on later models...good luck.
and here is another reference:
http://www.ianstedman.co.uk/downloads/A1200FuncSpec.txt
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Found this list in my bookmarks.
http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=21516
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I suppose if Amiga experts like you guys here know nothing about these documents, I suppose they never existed. It reminds me the policy Apple had about its Macintosh machines; the first models up to the Plus were well documented, both from a hardware and software point of view. But if you try to get info on later models...good luck.
I think Commodore introduced this policy as they did not want people to access hardware directly and use only OS provided interfaces (likely same reason for the Mac).
greets,
Staf.
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and here is another reference:
http://www.ianstedman.co.uk/downloads/A1200FuncSpec.txt
Very useful, thanks!
That's the kind of information I'd need, but it should be somewhat more detailed. I think I am going to contact Vesalia and aks whether they have any specific books or tools.
Thanks,
Antonio
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I think Commodore introduced this policy as they did not want people to access hardware directly and use only OS provided interfaces (likely same reason for the Mac).
I think this may have been part of it. The documentation existed though and games were using AGA functionality.
Commodore may just not have had the money to publish the HRM. The OS3.0 documentation came on floppy disks, I can't remember if there was any AGA documentation on them.
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A1200 as a Development Platform
Pro's
- OCS / ECS and AGA graphic chip sets are available
- Internal IDE (cheap inexpensive mass storage)
- 020@14Mhz provides 1.1MIPS of processing power
- 2MB of RAM
Cons
I cannot see any, arguably you may come across some compiler issues when compiling for lesser 68k machines, however if you have your environment setup correctly I can not see that being a problem.
I would suggest the purchase of an 030 or higher CPU to assist in compile times - alternatively there is cross - compiling, but that defeats the purpose of this thread.
In regards to resources, get yourself a hard copy of the latest ROM Kernal Reference Libraries and a good quality compiler / IDE suite - perhaps Storm C4.0 or similar would suit you well for your endeavours.
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I've just remembered that Asm-one has AGA hardware docs in Amigaguide format bundled with it.
Send me a PM with your email address if you want it. I'd post links here but the self-appointed copyright police are very active on this forum. ;)
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Nicholas,
thanks for the files, got them :)
Indeed I was interested in an Amiga 1200 due to the pros listed above; in particular having a small footprint (I don't have much space) is important, and the fact that it can be easily connected to monitors and TVs (I have a Samsung TV/monitor so I should be able to run all resolutions.)
I will try to acquire a 68030 accelerator, since I need an MMU and FPU for my projects. Apparently no card with 68882 FPU+separate 68851 MMU was ever produced; that would have been enough, and perhaps cheaper than the 68030 boards.
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Well there is always the CBM A2620 - while this is an A2000 accelerator card - I am sure a crazy moment with a soldering iron and 30awg wire could produce something interesting =)
Personally I think the A2620 is a beautiful card - don't know why.... it just looks delicious
(http://amiga.resource.cx/photos/photos/a2620.jpg)
(stock photo thanks to amiga.resource.cx) (http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/search.pl)
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Ah yes, lovely! I had seen that, but the chances of having it work with an A1200 are slim at best I suppose? Apart from the form factor, are the signals on the A2000 and A1200 bus the same?
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@rabindranath72
Sadly it would be very unlikely - the CPU card has a 16bit connector - this just wouldn't work with an A1200 without some logic in between - this will likely slow-down any operation requiring the use of the motherboard resources - which is most of them LOL (however hacking it into an A500..... well now.... thats very possible!)
To be honest.... I only really wanted to post the A2620 picture.... its a lovely card to look at ;)
Now a serious Alternative is -
The ACA1232/25 Accelerator £109.99 (inc VAT) + Postage (www.amigakit.com)
(http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/images/aca1232_accelerator.JPG) (http://amigakit.leamancomputing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=43&products_id=1131)
(Stock Photo - thanks to AmigaKit.com)
It provides an MMU, but no FPU - however interesting FPU instructions are transparent - so it wont matter if you program directly for it or not - it will make use of the FPU, if it is available.
Personally I think for the price of £109.99 this card does offer good value for money, with 128MB of RAM and a 25Mhz PGA 68030 - y'know, I am sure I could build a PGA interface board to allow for an FPU - however not knowing the timings of these cards - I doubt I could get the FPU to work reliably.
I will most likely get one of these cards in the near future - not because I need it..... because I want one... yeah I know..... bad me =/
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Yes I saw that, the price is really good, but the lack of FPU is annoying (I am an FPU freak :D )
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If a 68881 were fitted inside the a1200, would that accelerator be able to use it?
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If a 68881 were fitted inside the a1200, would that accelerator be able to use it?
I was wondering that :confused:
But then, how would you fit a 68882 inside the A1200? As far as I know there is no socket.
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There are pads to solder a 68881 to but I do not know if the 68882 will work there.
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Actually, there was someone who was trying that..
He soldered in a socket and added the FPU.
He was able to get it to work with no accelerator, but unfortunately, it wouldn't work with the ACA plugged in..
Looks like the ACA disables the FPU if it's there...
Not sure if he got any farther than that...
desiv
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Are you referring to this guy?
https://www.facebook.com/AppysAmigaPage
no, it doesn't seem to work :(
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Yes I saw that, the price is really good, but the lack of FPU is annoying (I am an FPU freak :D )
If u r an FPU freak then you need to get a 68040 card or 68060 card as their built-in FPUs are massively faster than the lame old slow creaky external 68882 FPUs from the 80s.
You would need to buy a used one from someone. They come up for sale on a regular basis.
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If u r an FPU freak then you need to get a 68040 card or 68060 card as their built-in FPUs are massively faster than the lame old slow creaky external 68882 FPUs from the 80s.
You would need to buy a used one from someone. They come up for sale on a regular basis.
I don't know about the 68060, but the FPU core in the 68040 is quite lame compared to the functionality provided in hardware by the 68882; and many of the software libraries to compensate all those holes are quite slow (and buggy.) A similar situation happens with the core MMU in the 68030 and the 68851 MMU.
I am not after (much) speed, but "completeness" of options. That's why I mentioned that I would be really happy if I found a 68020/68851/68882 board.
Finally there is the price. There is no way in hell I am going to pay £300 for an accelerator card :insane:
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I have added on my forum site links and informations regarding amiga programming. Perhaps it is interesting for one or another
http://www.amigacoding.de/index.php
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Well there is always the CBM A2620 - while this is an A2000 accelerator card - I am sure a crazy moment with a soldering iron and 30awg wire could produce something interesting =)
Personally I think the A2620 is a beautiful card - don't know why.... it just looks delicious
(http://amiga.resource.cx/photos/photos/a2620.jpg)
(stock photo thanks to amiga.resource.cx) (http://amiga.resource.cx/exp/search.pl)
That is pretty.
Anyone know where I can get one?
I always had a soft spot for the '020 because the last systems shipped by Delmar Company used these processors (and they were a huge jump in performance when compared to the 68000).