Amiga.org
Amiga News and Community Announcements => Amiga News and Community Announcements => Topic started by: SysAdmin on April 01, 2013, 02:05:56 AM
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News from Hyperion Entertainment.
You can read an update on the development status of some key components of AmigaOS 4.2 on Hyperion Entertainment's blog.
Here:
http://blog.hyperion-entertainment.biz/?p=863
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Any news on the netbook?
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Any news on the netbook?
There's an ongoing thread:
starting with post #327 (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=33223&forum=14&start=320&viewmode=flat&order=0)
Some questions are being answered by those using the Hyperion corporate account.
The question about the netbook has been asked twice, with no answer yet.
Nevertheless, there seems to be a willingness since yesterday to answer some questions posed by the members.
#6
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There's an ongoing thread:
starting with post #327 (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=33223&forum=14&start=320&viewmode=flat&order=0)
Some questions are being answered by those using the Hyperion corporate account.
The question about the netbook has been asked twice, with no answer yet.
Nevertheless, there seems to be a willingness since yesterday to answer some questions posed by the members.
#6
And who is answering the questions? Not just an account name, as we all know that account is shared. Is it the same person who said that OS4 was already running on the netbook back in 2011?
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And who is answering the questions? Not just an account name, as we all know that account is shared. Is it the same person who said that OS4 was already running on the netbook back in 2011?
AW staff has openly encouraged users of the account to sign their posts for reasons of credibility. They have obviously chosen not to.
#6
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And who is answering the questions? Not just an account name, as we all know that account is shared. Is it the same person who said that OS4 was already running on the netbook back in 2011?
I say the account was hacked. Bet it's the same password for the blog and that is why there is even an update. :rofl:
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I say the account was hacked. Bet it's the same password for the blog and that is why there is even an update. :rofl:
Well technically you could be right.
But just in case you are, it's not me! :D
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I say the account was hacked. Bet it's the same password for the blog and that is why there is even an update. :rofl:
Surely if someone hacked the account they'd make up something worth reading!
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There's an ongoing thread:
starting with post #327 (http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=33223&forum=14&start=320&viewmode=flat&order=0)
Some questions are being answered by those using the Hyperion corporate account.
The question about the netbook has been asked twice, with no answer yet.
Nevertheless, there seems to be a willingness since yesterday to answer some questions posed by the members.
#6
Ben H, assuming it's him, has always been willing to argue with those not so keen on OS4 but getting an answer about something like the netbook has never yielded an answer.
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@ commodorejohn
It`s about SW.
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Ben H, assuming it's him, has always been willing to argue with those not so keen on OS4 but getting an answer about something like the netbook has never yielded an answer.
because he has no answer that would satisfy you, man! get over with it.
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AW staff has openly encouraged users of the account to sign their posts for reasons of credibility. They have obviously chosen not to.
#6
whoever the guy is he doesnt seem to be a coder. rather a guy who knows to express himself in such a way, that it would be difficult to pin him down on something he seems to be suggesting.
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It`s about SW.
It is indeed - and they've left this absolutely huge hardware proposal unaddressed for nearly a year and a half now. If they're making announcements, I care more about knowing whether there will be an affordable OS4 machine sometime in the near future than about an update to an OS that only runs on machines I can't afford.
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(snip)..... I care more about knowing whether there will be an affordable OS4 machine sometime in the near future than about an update to an OS that only runs on machines I can't afford.
+1
Part of the reason I stopped paying attention to their updates a long time ago.
Before people troll.....
I require a PC. Everything I do, requires one. None of the software applications I use run on an Amiga (and don't start with "alternative applications.") I work in the (sadly "dying") VFX industry and that means I use what they use.
The Amiga is a hobby for me. While I would like to have one as a personal web browsing machine (preferably a laptop), I'm not willing to spend 3gs for a machine, when I can build an 8 core 4ghz machine that's decked out for half that and does all I need it to do and more.
That's one thing I've never understood about the "Red Camp" and why the "Blue Camp" makes more headway with a user base: they listen to people.
*shakes head*
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+1
Part of the reason I stopped paying attention to their updates a long time ago.
Before people troll.....
I require a PC. Everything I do, requires one. None of the software applications I use run on an Amiga (and don't start with "alternative applications.") I work in the (sadly "dying") VFX industry and that means I use what they use.
The Amiga is a hobby for me. While I would like to have one as a personal web browsing machine (preferably a laptop), I'm not willing to spend 3gs for a machine, when I can build an 8 core 4ghz machine that's decked out for half that and does all I need it to do and more.
That's one thing I've never understood about the "Red Camp" and why the "Blue Camp" makes more headway with a user base: they listen to people.
*shakes head*
Hi,
I am with you, I have been saying the exact same thing for the past 10 years and all I get is that I am a big troll.
But
You hit the nail right on the head.
smerf
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It is indeed - and they've left this absolutely huge hardware proposal unaddressed for nearly a year and a half now. If they're making announcements, I care more about knowing whether there will be an affordable OS4 machine sometime in the near future than about an update to an OS that only runs on machines I can't afford.
Given that OS4 has never made a dime and in fact is costing hundreds of thousands of Euros a year to keep afloat, I wouldn't spend a dime on this dead-end OS even if it ran on cheap PC hardware:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=35809&forum=33&start=120&viewmode=flat&order=0#702951
Development cost of roughly 100K euro per year since 2001 i.e. 12 years and running, expensive lawsuits (500K litigation cost).
Sorry but the shareholders are going to sit this one out and you can be glad that they do because they are the ones funding AmigaOS 4.x development for over a decade without any financial return.
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Jorkany : What is your point? You dont use, I use, several others use, some more doesn't. Still what is your point? You don't understand that people has hobby OS? OR you try to convice people to stop suppoting OS4? Or what?
I wouldn't run OS4 with cheap x86 hardware, I run Windows with it, I even run OS3.9 with really expensive 68k hardware.
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Given that OS4 has never made a dime and in fact is costing hundreds of thousands of Euros a year to keep afloat, I wouldn't spend a dime on this dead-end OS even if it ran on cheap PC hardware:
http://amigaworld.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=35809&forum=33&start=120&viewmode=flat&order=0#702951
I image the case is the same with MorphOS, but stupid me, I keep holding on, I guess I just enjoy it?
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Jorkany : What is your point? You dont use, I use, several others use, some more doesn't. Still what is your point? You don't understand that people has hobby OS? OR you try to convice people to stop suppoting OS4? Or what?
I wouldn't run OS4 with cheap x86 hardware, I run Windows with it, I even run OS3.9 with really expensive 68k hardware.
The point is, there's no future in it. It's been pointed out by many that there is no profit in OS4 and it's at best on life support but realistically it's dead. Up until now that's just been "opinion", but now you're getting it through the official Hyperion channel.
The title of this thread is: "Status report on AmigaOS 4.2 development". Well, there's your status report.
But by all means, keep using OS4. Keep buying behind-the-curve hardware and investing in your fantasy that this is "Amiga".
@XDelusion,
I image the case is the same with MorphOS, but stupid me, I keep holding on, I guess I just enjoy it?
Difference is, MorphOS makes or breaks it on their own - MorphOS isn't masquerading as "Amiga" to try to make it appear to be something it's not.
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So your point is based to fact that latest status update was just words and you conglusion is that there wount be OS4.2. At least you are strongly hinting so.
You are also hinting that I have some kind on fantasy about OS4, what you mean by that.
MorphOS is different thing it is Amiga if "needed" and it is not Amiga if it suits better for current situation
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Ugh, so much negativity in this thread. :-/
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well the sam440 doesnt cost that much.
I know its far from as fast as the latest wintel based puter, but that puter cost alot more than the sam. And a windows licens cost about the same as AOS4.1 licens.
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After ten years nobody wouldn't buy ten years old x86 hardware, but I'm prety sure that Sam 440/460 has still value €/$/£
OS4 is hobby OS and it future is to be hobby OS. Everything else is nonsense. Though I have to say that everyday computer stuff is done with it nicely, surfing web, watching some TV series etc.
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well the sam440 doesnt cost that much.
I know its far from as fast as the latest wintel based puter, but that puter cost alot more than the sam. And a windows licens cost about the same as AOS4.1 licens.
There's none on eBay for me to check right now, but I recall SAM boards fetching $500-800 typically (sometimes with the license, sometimes without.) The supposed price range for the netbook was going to be $300-500, which is a little closer to reasonable for a hobby purchase.
Yes, Windows machines (and Windows licenses) can cost more than that (though they can also be much cheaper,) but on the other hand they can do a whole lot more, and are much easier to use as one's daily driver. The standards for a hobby machine are different. MorphOS, utilizing used Macs that one can get for anywhere from free-off-the-curb to $200, and providing a full-fledged free trial of the OS, get that. Hyperion really doesn't seem to.
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You can also buy a new SAM440.
What is it that windows can do, that you miss in AOS4.x? I use both on my office, and I don't miss anything in AOS4.x, but the SAM does boot into workbench in less than half the time, that my office PC uses to boot into windows.
And on top of that AOS4.x is alot more responsive than windows, not just by margins but by miles.
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+1
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@commodorejohn
I've seen a qoupe of sam's in sweden going for about 385usd. One ep and one flex. I don't think thats an unfair price.
When i got my first sam440ep when it was still beta, i paid about 8000nok. When i later got my sam460ep i paid around 7500nok for a much better machine. So i feel that acube has given us better pricve/performance over the years. And probably will to if people support them.
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So i feel that acube has given us better pricve/performance over the years. And probably will to if people support them.
how do you want to support them to give us a better price/performance ratio? with money?
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By people buying their products offcourse. So they can make faster and better/cheaper hardware in the future.
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how do you want to support them to give us a better price/performance ratio? with money?
well if you really wanted a system capable of running AOS4.x, you ciuld always support a-cube by actually buying a SAM system.
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What is it that windows can do, that you miss in AOS4.x? I use both on my office, and I don't miss anything in AOS4.x, but the SAM does boot into workbench in less than half the time, that my office PC uses to boot into windows.
And on top of that AOS4.x is alot more responsive than windows, not just by margins but by miles.
Well, I can't really speak for OS4 as I haven't used it (see above comments re: too damn expensive,) but do remember that your use case is not necessarily everybody else's. Personally the only thing that would keep me from using an alternative platform as a daily driver is my VSTs (and that may change in the future, as I've started to get into real hardware MIDI gear,) but lots of people are dependent on Windows or Mac-specific software for different things. I, for example, could probably get along fine with a native Amiga drawing program, but for someone who really needs a new version of Photoshop or Illustrator for their workflow wouldn't find it so easy.
I've seen a qoupe of sam's in sweden going for about 385usd. One ep and one flex. I don't think thats an unfair price.
My point isn't so much that the price is unfair (that's a thorny discussion that I have no intention of starting up,) but that for a lot of us there's only so much we're willing to drop on a hobby system. The only SAM boards currently in stock at Acube are $750-870, and that's for just the board and OS4. That's simply much more than I want to spend for something I'd just be playing around with, especially when I could drop a couple hundred bucks on a MorphOS license for one of the G4 Macs I got for $10 at the recycle center and have a complete working system instead.
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Difference is, MorphOS makes or breaks it on their own - MorphOS isn't masquerading as "Amiga" to try to make it appear to be something it's not.
Personally, I only consider Amiga compatibilty a plus.
I actually run mostly native software.
And I like the 30 second boot times.
I could take a nap during the time it takes my X86 hardware to boot.
Plus, unlike some of you, if I've got a word processor and a web browser I'm pretty much good to go.
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Real Amigans don´t piss on OS4, MorphOS, AROS, UAE - yes and they even don´t piss on OS 1.0 - 3.9 and for gods sake even not vice versa. Don´t forget - we R family!
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Lots of families feature heavy infighting and mutual loathing :P
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BTW - IF they can manage to introduce these features, OS 4.2 should be pretty formidable. Better OpenGL support would be nice too.
I'm still in the blue camp, but SMP, Radeon HD graphics, etc?
Pretty nice.
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I could take a nap during the time it takes my X86 hardware to boot.
Shoddy x86 hardware.
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And I like the 30 second boot times.
I could take a nap during the time it takes my X86 hardware to boot.
Seriously? My "X86" is from 2007 and boots into a fully bloated gnome/nautilus desktop in 30 seconds or less* from a regular (mechanical) drive.
*not including the 10 second grub menu time-out.
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well if you really wanted a system capable of running AOS4.x, you ciuld always support a-cube by actually buying a SAM system.
can buying it second hand qualify as "support"? will that have an influence on their price/performance, what do you think?
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Seriously? My "X86" is from 2007 and boots into a fully bloated gnome/nautilus desktop in 30 seconds or less* from a regular (mechanical) drive.
*not including the 10 second grub menu time-out.
Well, I sold off the parts from my Phenom II X4 system, so the hardware I'm using IS dated.
But I also like being able to shut my system off when I want to (rather then having to allow the OS to do it).
And, once I upgrade my drive to the Western Digital Raptor I have sitting on my dresser I expect even better performance (although MorphOS already works pretty good with the one system I'm giving away that has a U320 drive in it).
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Well, I sold off the parts from my Phenom II X4 system, so the hardware I'm using IS dated.
But I also like being able to shut my system off when I want to (rather then having to allow the OS to do it).
And, once I upgrade my drive to the Western Digital Raptor I have sitting on my dresser I expect even better performance (although MorphOS already works pretty good with the one system I'm giving away that has a U320 drive in it).
Personally for just 300 bucks I have obtained a full blown super duper monster beast you name it AMD+ motherboard with a CPU black edition. It is an 8 core processor running at 3.50 Ghz each and the motherboard support 32 GB of RAM, 64 bit processor at that, with SUPER COOL FEATURES build into it include a GUI sweet BIOS system and security, flashing, USB 3.0, SATA 6 GB/s slot, PCI express, blah blah blah blah blah and even control your fan speed through your motherboard...I mean this is a monster for just 300 bucks.
Can anyone say you can achieve all that in a PPC AmigaOS 4 for that cheap price? SO wouldn't AmigaOS 4.x have being better off in an x86 platform? All these resources, money could have spend on improving AmigaOS 4.x with better drivers to support different motherboard platforms and perhaps it can be a Linux alternative with huge software library. But being stuck in a 6k dollar PPC hardware I doubt it will go anywhere.
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My windows machine boots much faster and is much more responsive in use than my Powerbook with MOS. It runs better software and is superior in every way except one - it doesn`t remind me of being a kid nor give me a warm glow in my belly.
It`s like drugs really - there`s no logical explanation for using them, they just make you feel nice x
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My windows machine boots much faster and is much more responsive in use than my Powerbook with MOS. It runs better software and is superior in every way except one - it doesn`t remind me of being a kid nor give me a warm glow in my belly.
It`s like drugs really - there`s no logical explanation for using them, they just make you feel nice x
That is why I spend 550 bucks for an Apollo 1260 @ 80 Mhz with 64 MB of RAM and I spend 200 bucks on an Amiga 1200 and 75 bucks on a HD.
Just for that feeling...no logical reason, no common sense, just for that....a feeling I am not finding in AmigaOS 4.x even through screenshot or PC.
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Precisely, bang on.
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Development cost of roughly 100K euro per year since 2001 i.e. 12 years and running, expensive lawsuits (500K litigation cost).
Sorry but the shareholders are going to sit this one out and you can be glad that they do because they are the ones funding AmigaOS 4.x development for over a decade without any financial return.
I don't understand how SOMEONE is not making any money considering the high cost of the hardware. I can't imagine anyone dumping 100,000 euro x12 years + 500k euro into a losing business. Makes no sense, but then welcome to amiga.
I wonder how much more money MORPHOS made than them then?
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can buying it second hand qualify as "support"? will that have an influence on their price/performance, what do you think?
Ofcourse it can, if the sellers intends to buy a newer system.
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@commodorejohn I know you have never used AOS4.x, which makes your complaining meaningless.
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I know you have never used AOS4.x, which makes your complaining meaningless.
My complaining about OS4 machines being too expensive for a lot of us is meaningless because I've never used OS4 (because it only runs on machines which are too expensive for a lot of us?)
Right.
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Can AmigaOS 4.x hardware beat this price?
http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=80960&vpn=M5A97%20R2.0%2BFD8320FRHKBOX&manufacture=Bundle%20Deals
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@John, you complaining about the price is just one thing though. You did tell me there where things that AOS4.1 can't do that windows can do, which was another complaint of yours. Again, what are those things?
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Can AmigaOS 4.x hardware beat this price?
http://www.ncix.com/products/?sku=80960&vpn=M5A97%20R2.0%2BFD8320FRHKBOX&manufacture=Bundle%20Deals
No that is where the "number of sales" thing come in, you know market and demand stuff. But I bet that the more people who actually buy AOS4.x compliant hardware, the cheaper it will get in the long run.
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By people buying their products offcourse. So they can make faster and better/cheaper hardware in the future.
I dont think your buying volume is big enough to make difference.
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Atleast i'm doing what i can to make a difference, in a positive way.
I dont think your buying volume is big enough to make difference.
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I dont think your buying volume is big enough to make difference.
Than it means buying a copy of MorphOS makes also no big difference?
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aCube manufactures PPC bords for industrial purpose, if they could manufacture bords just for just for Amiga user, I would say that price would lower. Lots of useless thing could be removed and make boards more cheaper.
So I would say that it is possible to make a diffrence.
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Is that actually happening though or was it just the original plan? I guess only Acube knows but given the (understandably) high price, I`m not sure they have industrial customers yet.
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In a shocking totally unexpected turn of events, an Amiga Os annoucement turns into argument about the best NG Os and hardware prices
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The reason this happens (which I think is fairly obvious to be honest) is that people click on a thread, read the last page and respond to the last few posts, not the original post. It`s like Chinese whispers.
edit: Real conversations do this as well don`t they?
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aCube manufactures PPC bords for industrial purpose, if they could manufacture bords just for just for Amiga user, I would say that price would lower. Lots of useless thing could be removed and make boards more cheaper.
So I would say that it is possible to make a diffrence.
AOS4 compatibility? That's 1/4 of the price right there. :P
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In a shocking totally unexpected turn of events, an Amiga Os annoucement turns into argument about the best NG Os and hardware prices
That's because everyone knows Windows for Workgroups 3.11 is the best. >.<
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You did tell me there where things that AOS4.1 can't do that windows can do, which was another complaint of yours. Again, what are those things?
Are you serious?
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I dont think your buying volume is big enough to make difference.
Than it means buying a copy of MorphOS makes also no big difference?
If there were thousands of new customers every day then price of the hardware would skyrocket due to limited supply.
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John, you complaining about the price is just one thing though. You did tell me there where things that AOS4.1 can't do that windows can do, which was another complaint of yours. Again, what are those things?
What I said was that there are people dependent on specific Windows software who would not find it so easy to switch to OS4-native alternatives. But you know what, you want an example? Here: MusicLab RealLPC. (http://www.musiclab.com/products/reallpc/info.html) It doesn't even run on PowerPC Macs, to say nothing of something like a SAM board, and good luck getting anything like usable performance out of it in emulation on a <=1GHz CPU - to say nothing of running additional VSTs alongside it. If I were a guitarist with an actual Les Paul, that'd be one thing - but I'm not. So if I want to use this plugin to add some sweet, sweet Gibson sounds to my music, there is simply no way I can do that on OS4.
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@thread
i go on vacation and look what happens. :lol:
anyhoo this thread has gotten seriously derailed. would anyone object if i moved some of the off-topic posts to a new thread? i'd like to keep everyone's thoughts around, but the argument over the merits of this OS vs that OS should be continued elsewhere. that is, if we want to rehash the same arguments over again for the 3,597th time. ;)
-- eliyahu
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You did tell me there where things that AOS4.1 can't do that windows can do, which was another complaint of yours. Again, what are those things?
I was gonna leave this alone, but:
Maya, 3DStudio, Photoshop, Illustrator, Premiere, After Effects, Nuke, Toxik, Mari, Painter, Animation Studio Pro, Mudbox, ZBrush, Reason and those are just a few examples of applications I use on a daily basis.
So, tell me, why would *I* spend a grand or more on a computer that for all intents and purposes will only do two things for me: web browsing and playing legacy games. Even in that the web browsing is still below what I could do on a PC and any legacy games I wished to run, I could do faster and cheaper on a PC with WinUAE, not to mention, I have a fully working A500 sitting in my closet collecting dust, 'cos I just don't have the TIME to play "legacy games."
It's the laws of supply and demand. Sure there are people that are willing to spend that money on an OS4 system and that's great for them, but for someone, like myself, whom is RELIANT on the system they use for work, how is getting a machine that does nothing I need it to do, for the price of a machine that WILL, justifiable? A fully working machine at around 300$ is justifiable to many of us, 'cos that's the price of a decent motherboard and at minimum, quad-core processor. That doesn't meet the demand.
It's why so many of us are pissing and moaning about the "netbook" they were bragging about 2 years ago, but never saw the light of day. I love the Amiga OS and wish I could use it on a daily basis, but it doesn't meet my needs or demands. It's just that simple and tell me, is that really fair to ME, as an Amiga user?
BTW, you're Alien Attack game rocks. I've been playing the sh!t out of it, for a few weeks now. Even got my fiancee playing it. Good work! :laugh1:
-M
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@thread
i go on vacation and look what happens. :lol:
anyhoo this thread has gotten seriously derailed. would anyone object if i moved some of the off-topic posts to a new thread? i'd like to keep everyone's thoughts around, but the argument over the merits of this OS vs that OS should be continued elsewhere. that is, if we want to rehash the same arguments over again for the 3,597th time. ;)
-- eliyahu
Didn't you know, Eliyahu? As a Mod, you're expected to be chained to your desktop with a neural interface directly tied to Amiga.org at all times. Why do you think we've been trying to find a way to get Karlos to ban himself, for years? ;)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by utri007
aCube manufactures PPC bords for industrial purpose, if they could manufacture bords just for just for Amiga user, I would say that price would lower. Lots of useless thing could be removed and make boards more cheaper.
So I would say that it is possible to make a diffrence.
AOS4 compatibility? That's 1/4 of the price right there. :P
If you read specs of Sam Flex or any other Sam boards, you find out that there ar lots of weird features, wich doesn't have any use with average Amiga hobbyist.
Sam Flex :
•2 integrated Ethernet 10/100 ports
•Up to 4 serial ports
•2 I2C interfaces
•SPI interfaces
•64 pin for I/O General Purpose
•FPGA Lattice XP with 80 pin I/O expansion connector
Sam 460 is even more weird.
If ACube could make mobo just for Amiga hobbyists, it could be much cheaper.
So every buyer matters.
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The list of things a OS4 or MOS rig cannot do that many people require out of a daily driver PC is too big to even start, lol. They are hobby machines - if I tried to use my SAM or my MOS PPC Mac for my daily tasks I'd starve to death and be out of business within a week.
I love MOS and OS4, but if you are using one as a commodity PC replacement your requirements out of a PC are far, far less than many people. Love them for what they are.
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If you read specs of Sam Flex or any other Sam boards, you find out that there ar lots of weird features, wich doesn't have any use with average Amiga hobbyist.
Sam Flex :
•2 integrated Ethernet 10/100 ports
•Up to 4 serial ports
•2 I2C interfaces
•SPI interfaces
•64 pin for I/O General Purpose
•FPGA Lattice XP with 80 pin I/O expansion connector
Sam 460 is even more weird.
If ACube could make mobo just for Amiga hobbyists, it could be much cheaper.
i agree, with the whole post, only the actually sane conclusion looks flawed in context of what actually happens. this, because there is apparently a motherboard made entirely for amiga hobbyists and not only is it much more expensive, but also contains a number of unsupported or not necessary devices, most prominently the x-mos part. that aside, it doesnt seem that the raw computing power scales along the price here, so sorry, i dont trust that we can do anything about the price/performance factor, whether we find ways of support or not.
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@thread
anyhoo this thread has gotten seriously derailed. would anyone object if i moved some of the off-topic posts to a new thread?
I am for anything that can in the future prevent OS4 threads being hijacked.
Staf.
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I was gonna leave this alone, but:
Maya, 3DStudio, Photoshop, Illustrator, Premiere, After Effects, Nuke, Toxik, Mari, Painter, Animation Studio Pro, Mudbox, ZBrush, Reason and those are just a few examples of applications I use on a daily basis.
So, tell me, why would *I* spend a grand or more on a computer that for all intents and purposes will only do two things for me: web browsing and playing legacy games. Even in that the web browsing is still below what I could do on a PC and any legacy games I wished to run, I could do faster and cheaper on a PC with WinUAE, not to mention, I have a fully working A500 sitting in my closet collecting dust, 'cos I just don't have the TIME to play "legacy games."
It's the laws of supply and demand. Sure there are people that are willing to spend that money on an OS4 system and that's great for them, but for someone, like myself, whom is RELIANT on the system they use for work, how is getting a machine that does nothing I need it to do, for the price of a machine that WILL, justifiable? A fully working machine at around 300$ is justifiable to many of us, 'cos that's the price of a decent motherboard and at minimum, quad-core processor. That doesn't meet the demand.
It's why so many of us are pissing and moaning about the "netbook" they were bragging about 2 years ago, but never saw the light of day. I love the Amiga OS and wish I could use it on a daily basis, but it doesn't meet my needs or demands. It's just that simple and tell me, is that really fair to ME, as an Amiga user?
BTW, you're Alien Attack game rocks. I've been playing the sh!t out of it, for a few weeks now. Even got my fiancee playing it. Good work! :laugh1:
-M
My turn! Things I use in Windows and gives me so much pleasure that I cannot find in AmigaOS 4.? OK:
- Unity3D
- UDK
- Game Maker 8.1
- Engine001
- Visual Studio
- Movie editing programs that allow me to convert videos to run on classic Amiga
- MMORPG games (every single MMORPG game in the market and new ones coming out)
- Sweet up to date current games and I mean thousands of games here to be listed plus old games
Pretty much if the above list is available in AmigaOS 4.1 then we can talk.
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Let's be honest....some of the forum members here, including myself, have spent thousands of dollars or Euros, and in many cases a lot more than the cost of a PPC based Amiga OS computer, just to enable our classic hardware to do still a fraction of what one of these machines can do, right out of the box.
We all now that they do not compare to modern computers ( own quite a few of those too), but after all, we all share something in common...we like retro-computing and are willing to spend money and time tinkering with them regardless of the origin of our hardware.
In case you haven't heard the news, Commodore-Amiga went out of business more than 20 years ago, and whatever we do today to recreate the experience, is entirely up to us...it's our own money!
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I was gonna leave this alone, but:
Maya, 3DStudio, Photoshop, Illustrator, Premiere, After Effects, Nuke, Toxik, Mari, Painter, Animation Studio Pro, Mudbox, ZBrush, Reason and those are just a few examples of applications I use on a daily basis.
-M
I don't know half of those programs, but we do have gimp, I only use gimp at work any ways. Blender for 3D.
We could use inkScape on AOS4.x I prefer that over Illustrator
It's why so many of us are pissing and moaning about the "netbook" they were bragging about 2 years ago, but never saw the light of day. I love the Amiga OS and wish I could use it on a daily basis, but it doesn't meet my needs or demands. It's just that simple and tell me, is that really fair to ME, as an Amiga user?
-M
I would like the netbook as well, but for now I can use my SAM
And thanks for your kind words on Alien Air Attack, I was not the only one involved in it, Krister made the great music and Kevin made most of the graphics, the good looking any way.
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Eclipse, Git, Subversion, Steam, Netbeans, Java, Python, Chrome, Flash, Silverlight, Ruby...
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I'm perfectly happy with my 800mhz Sam, it much more than 060, Workbench is fast, wb surfing is flawless, I can watch my favorite tv series with it etc. So CPU power is more than OK for me.
Flex would be at least 200€ cheaper without those "industrial" features. Talking about x1000 is different thing, it designed with different way, to offer max CPU power for Amiga and money is not a issue.
ACube might make Amiga only mobo, if there would be enough demand to it. I would say that it is possible to make and sell Flex level mobo about 100€, IF it has only needed features. Just 3x PCI, 2-4 USB, and CPU.
ACube is not exactly BIG player in computer market, so several thousands mobos to sell would be enough to desing and manufacture Amiga only mobo, to get price low as 100€ it would need manufacture in China and at least 10 000 mobos.
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I'm perfectly happy with my 800mhz Sam, it much more than 060, Workbench is fast, wb surfing is flawless, I can watch my favorite tv series with it etc. So CPU power is more than OK for me.
Flex would be at least 200€ cheaper without those "industrial" features. Talking about x1000 is different thing, it designed with different way, to offer max CPU power for Amiga and money is not a issue.
ACube might make Amiga only mobo, if there would be enough demand to it. I would say that it is possible to make and sell Flex level mobo about 100€, IF it has only needed features. Just 3x PCI, 2-4 USB, and CPU.
I am thinking honestly here that the physical manufacturing of hardware and selling them for even cheap price is not the issue here. It is the software that makes the computer run, when we lack in this area the demand for the hardware decreases unfathomably rendering the prices to go up, manufacturing hardware to be slow and hard to find and it end up nothing more than a hobby for the rich or the insane.
Why is it worth it for me to spend 600 bucks in a classic Amiga than say 800 bucks in a modern AmigaOS 4.x? Well because it is fun squeezing and making the classic Amiga do things it was not intended to do...but also because it's software library exceed that of OS 4.x and it is native and for it! AmigaOS 4.x software library are imports that can be done with Linux for free!
To me..the only time I think it is worth getting an overprice, super expensive, no longer used PPC hardware to run AmigaOS 4.x when AmigaOS 4.x have equivalent amount of software library as Linux and should we say almost 98% the same. Then to me I would rather own an AmigaOS 4.x and then perhaps..other companies may consider AmigaOS 4.x as a suitable business OS due to the user friendliness, lack of viruses, blah, blah that even Ubunutu unfortunately still lacks on.
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If you read specs of Sam Flex or any other Sam boards, you find out that there ar lots of weird features, wich doesn't have any use with average Amiga hobbyist.
Sam Flex :
•2 integrated Ethernet 10/100 ports
•Up to 4 serial ports
•2 I2C interfaces
•SPI interfaces
•64 pin for I/O General Purpose
•FPGA Lattice XP with 80 pin I/O expansion connector
Sam 460 is even more weird.
If ACube could make mobo just for Amiga hobbyists, it could be much cheaper.
So every buyer matters.
I know the Sam460 very well I have one on my desk. :)
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I know the Sam460 very well I have one on my desk. :)
•2 integrated Ethernet 10/100 ports
Would you get double internet speed if you hook them at the same time into the router?
•Up to 4 serial ports
In computer history from the beginning of the very first personal computer have anyone used more than serial port to benefit home users or business alike?
•2 I2C interfaces
Can someone explain to me what is that and what is used for?
•SPI interfaces
Can someone explain to me what is that and what is used for?
•64 pin for I/O General Purpose
Is this even a feature? Can someone explain to me what is that and what is used for?
•FPGA Lattice XP with 80 pin I/O expansion connector
Huh?! Can someone explain to me what is that and what is used for?
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The extra parts don't add much to the cost, its all cheap stuff. FPGA would be the most expensive, at around $10-$20 depending on which model it is. (product specs aren't very specific).
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I don't know half of those programs, but we do have gimp, I only use gimp at work any ways. Blender for 3D.
We could use inkScape on AOS4.x I prefer that over Illustrator
Once again, I run into the problem of software compatibility.
For example. If I'm doing contract work for a game company, I'm using 3DStudio. If I'm doing film or television work, it's typically Maya (or Lightwave, but I stopped using LW a while ago.)
Now, if I'm working on game models that are of the environment type, I *COULD* use Blender and import them into max for my client, but that's extra work on my part and I have applications on the PC side that allow me to cut UVs in seconds, rather than hours. Sure, I can paint my textures in GIMP, but I can instead use Mari, which allows me to paint seamlessly, on the fly, without having to paint, load into my 3D app, check for seams and paint again.
Now, if I am modeling and rigging a character model, I run into serious problems, as most game companies use 3DStudio's CAT plugin (Character Animation Toolkit.) Sure, I could model my character in Blender, then texture it in GIMP (running into the same problems I'd have with seam issues), but I'd still have to load it into 3DStudio to use CAT, 'cos there's no bone compatibility in Blender with CAT. That means, I'd do all my weight painting and binding in 3DStudio, anyway. That's counter-productive for my workload and pipeline, using two, separate machines to do the job one will do, faster and more efficiently.
Also, many of these applications I use, have linux ports, but they're still X86 based, not PPC, which would require a complete re-write of the application, most companies AREN'T willing to do for such a small userbase or run them through emulation, which would choke an already slow processor by comparison.
You see the conundrum? It's not that I DON'T want to use OS4. It's the fact that it's just not capable of what I NEED it to do, on a daily basis and for me, it's simply isn't justifiable to spend over a grand on a computer that I'm only going to turn on, very rarely, as a hobby. That being said, why am I being punished for not wanting to spend the money to purchase a machine I won't get much use out of, if at all?
Hyperion would be smart, if right now, they focused solely on porting OpenGL and getting it fixed, working and up-to-date with current standards, than anything else. When they got that done, they donate a machine or two to companies like ID, Steam, Blizzard, etc in the hopes they *MAY* (*MAY*, mind you) have a former Amiga coder willing to port a game, in his own time to the Amiga standard so Amigan's could download DRM copies of current games they wanted. (You'd be surprised how many digital artists in the game industries, like myself, that actually got their knuckles bloody on Amiga systems.) Sure, you're not going to get a CD/DVD copy with printed manuals and what not, but at least you'd be getting current games.
And thanks for your kind words on Alien Air Attack, I was not the only one involved in it, Krister made the great music and Kevin made most of the graphics, the good looking any way.
No worries. I wouldn't have said it, if I didn't mean it. I have it bookmarked now, so when I need a quick break. I just go play that for a few minutes to release my frustrations (though, as of late it seems to be making me more frustrated. Some of those levels are HARD! :rofl:)
[EDIT] - And for those griping about all the extra fluff on the SAM's, remember these boards were designed for KIOSKs first, not OS4. Hyperion ported OS4 to an already designed, tested and commercial board. All those "Extra" parts, from a KIOSK standpoint, are quite useable.
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You see the conundrum? It's not that I DON'T want to use OS4. It's the fact that it's just not capable of what I NEED it to do, on a daily basis and for me, it's simply isn't justifiable to spend over a grand on a computer that I'm only going to turn on, very rarely, as a hobby. That being said, why am I being punished for not wanting to spend the money to purchase a machine I won't get much use out of, if at all?
Hyperion would be smart, if right now, they focused solely on porting OpenGL and getting it fixed, working and up-to-date with current standards, than anything else. When they got that done, they donate a machine or two to companies like ID, Steam, Blizzard, etc in the hopes they *MAY* (*MAY*, mind you) have a former Amiga coder willing to port a game, in his own time to the Amiga standard so Amigan's could download DRM copies of current games they wanted. (You'd be surprised how many digital artists in the game industries, like myself, that actually got their knuckles bloody on Amiga systems.) Sure, you're not going to get a CD/DVD copy with printed manuals and what not, but at least you'd be getting current games.
the software issue has been around since the late-90s. OS3, OS4, MOS, and AROS all suffer from a lack of software which is compatible with software used on mainstream platforms, like windows or linux. it's not just OS4, but OS4 gets the accusation most often because it's commercial.
in any case the good news is that hyperion are indeed working on a current OGL stack. they have been for some time, actually. the warp3D drivers A-EON commissioned are taking time away from that, but hey, money talks. lots of little things are happening behind the scenes to make the platform more attractive to developers, and OGL is just one of them. developer tools, documentation, etc., are also very important. and hardware that is performant enough to be able to even run some of the CPU-intensive applications now normal on PCs. oh, and it has to be at least somewhat affordable as well.
i don't imagine the amiga will 'return' per se, but i think it will become much better than it is today. i enjoy my NG systems because not only do they run workbench, not only do they run my classic amiga applications seamlessly, but they run them much faster. they run new, native software, some of which is terrific. and they let me do what i normally do on my PCs, but in the environment i prefer. if we could get 'em faster and cheaper, hey, that would be awesome. but when you're a hobbyist and have a passion for something, sometimes dollars aren't the most important thing. :)
-- eliyahu
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I wouldn't even imagine to us Amiga as a work machine, thats why it is callt a hobby machine ;)
Though it is perfctly possible to use it as a home office and do some "serious" stuff with it. Everything with Amiga requires more or less tinkering, wich I love :) still havent make printing to work, because I really doesn't need it, but it would be fun.
Some basic stuff works out of the box. It was actually surprice for me, I waited that situation is much worse.
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the software issue has been around since the late-90s. OS3, OS4, MOS, and AROS all suffer from a lack of software which is compatible with software used on mainstream platforms, like windows or linux. it's not just OS4, but OS4 gets the accusation most often because it's commercial.
Oh, I'm not blaming them for anything, I'm just stating an obvious point. AROS has a much better chance of app ports, 'cos it's x86 (though, with Olaf's AROS 68k, I'm tempted to hound Bernie about picking up Umilator again, since it bypasses all his legal and licensing issues. :P) MorphOS has a better chance of a bigger user base, due to cheaper, readily available hardware, via Macs, but that kinda leaves OS4 out in the cold, which is why I don't understand why they don't donate machines to current software companies hoping they'll port their applications to OS4. A good example would be Corel. The Corel Suite is BEAUTIFUL. I love using Painter and the other apps that come with it. It's also less processor and ram intensive than Adobe products. That's a good starting point for getting commercial apps to Amiga. The Corel Suite is EXTREMELY cheap, compared to the Adobe Master Collection and I won't even mention how much I had to spend just to UPGRADE that from CS4 to 6. Yeah, sure they may not port it, but if these people are willing to lose 100k a year in "development" 6 or 7 grand for two working X1000's to an established software company, hoping they'll port their graphics suite to OS4 isn't anything. If I had Corel's suite, plus Open Office (which they claim is on the way, already), dropping a grand on a machine that I could use for storyboard, concept art, office work, browsing the web, along with minor things like watching TV shows, listening to mp3s while I work, etc, would be more feasible for me. Not to mention, Corel wouldn't require any hardware GL components. That's all software based.
in any case the good news is that hyperion are indeed working on a current OGL stack. they have been for some time, actually. the warp3D drivers A-EON commissioned are taking time away from that, but hey, money talks. lots of little things are happening behind the scenes to make the platform more attractive to developers, and OGL is just one of them. developer tools, documentation, etc., are also very important. and hardware that is performant enough to be able to even run some of the CPU-intensive applications now normal on PCs. oh, and it has to be at least somewhat affordable as well.
Yeah, that's the primary killer, right now, is Open GL. As soon as that becomes an Amiga standard, it's going to help people to start taking notice of it again, 'cos at least from a graphics stand point, it's up to modern standards. GL is also something that needs to be continually updated. Hell, send a box for free to NVidia. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't start writing OS4 drivers, since they're now doing Unix drivers for Macs and Linux boxes. They are a company, first and foremost. They care about numbers.
i don't imagine the amiga will 'return' per se, but i think it will become much better than it is today. i enjoy my NG systems because not only do they run workbench, not only do they run my classic amiga applications seamlessly, but they run them much faster. they run new, native software, some of which is terrific. and they let me do what i normally do on my PCs, but in the environment i prefer. if we could get 'em faster and cheaper, hey, that would be awesome. but when you're a hobbyist and have a passion for something, sometimes dollars aren't the most important thing. :)
-- eliyahu
Amiga could make a comeback, more along the lines of Linux, if they'd stop dropping the ball, all the time. They need to start LISTENING to their users, but mostly, their potential user BASE. I don't know how many people complained, back in the day, "Cheaper hardware!" or "X86 hardware!" The MorphOS people listened, out of necessity and ported to old Mac hardware. It's cheap and readily available, so their numbers swelled, in a short amount of time.
I really dislike Windows. Windows 7 is great, but XP was by far better, IMHO. My Win8 laptop is atrocious. I hate the interface, it's even more kludgy to me, than Win7, but it's what came with my lappy. I miss the Amiga OS. It was so good for what it was, in the 90s and I'm still spoiled about that. I would give anything to boot my PC into OS4 and double click a Maya icon to start doing work.
But, I'm a realist. ;)
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If we are dreaming tiny 0,001% change that Amiga makes a comback, it is not because of Amiga it will be because of Windows. Windows 8 sucks. Early 2000-centry they were blamed to trying to push workstation OS to phones, now they have good phone/table OS and they trying to push it to desktops...
Windows 7 was great.
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the software issue has been around since the late-90s. OS3, OS4, MOS, and AROS all suffer from a lack of software which is compatible with software used on mainstream platforms, like windows or linux. it's not just OS4, but OS4 gets the accusation most often because it's commercial.
-- eliyahu
My point exactly.
The only thing I can think of that windows can do, is domain and multiuser, but I have never used that on any of my home computers any way.
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Windows 7 was great.
What do you mean was it is STILL great....please!!! It is not DEAD yet my friend! It is still can be bought from NCIX and other computer stores and by the way I have upgraded my entire hardware and software part of my compute rand I bought Windows 7 Professional 64 Bit here and I am using it now to post in this website.
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Well going x86 does not mean that software starts magically appearing. It still needs to be ported. Yes there could to some extend be some sort of wine implementation, but AFAIK aros does not have that, yet(?)
"They" are listening to their users, their users are using AOS4.x already. The users who wants an x86, are not really AOS4.x users, but they have the option of aros. Personally I beleiver more in AOS4.x than any of the other amiga like OS's. I would however really like to buy me one of those sweet aros boxes vesalia sold.
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aCube manufactures PPC bords for industrial purpose, if they could manu. Lots of useless thing could be removed and make boards more cheaper.facture bords just for just for Amiga user, I would say that price would lower.
Everyone keeps saying that, but everyone has yet to find ONE person or company who bought one of those boards for any purpose other than amiga
os4...
No really, if people are using them for industrial purposes, where?
There are 150 boards for embedded applications that are 1/10th of the price. No one in their right mind would buy these for a manufacturing business, factory,automation, or any other industrial purpose. I CALL BULL**** on these being for anything other than running os4.
And nothing personal, I just call bull**** because people keep saying this but no one in how many years has been able to show me or anyone else
any company or even individual who used one of these boards for industrial applications. Sure maybe someone did, but its not a volume larger
then the volume they sold for os4 users. They won't release sales figures... or even any examples of people using them for their "so called" main purpose.
Why is that?
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Why is that?
You know, they are out to get you. They have special machines with mind-rays or something.
In reality, none of us knows why they don't want to release any numbers, but there could be a number of valid explanations.
That does not mean comspiracy
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Well going x86 does not mean that software starts magically appearing. It still needs to be ported. Yes there could to some extend be some sort of wine implementation, but AFAIK aros does not have that, yet(?)
"They" are listening to their users, their users are using AOS4.x already. The users who wants an x86, are not really AOS4.x users, but they have the option of aros. Personally I beleiver more in AOS4.x than any of the other amiga like OS's. I would however really like to buy me one of those sweet aros boxes vesalia sold.
Once again, you're missing the point. What are they actually doing to promote companies into porting their software to OS4? I've seen people complaining about not having an updated SDK. If there's no current SDK, there's no porting of modern software. No commercial company has any incentive to buy a SAM or an X1000 to port their software to a user base of a few thousand. It's just not economically feasible. ESPECIALLY without a current SDK. Therefore, you *GIVE* these companies working machines and HOPE they decide to to it. You *PAY* companies to port software. Like I mentioned before, if these people are losing 100k a year in development dropping a few machines to a company in the hopes they'll port software isn't anything. However, taking 20 grand of that 100k and ASKING them to port say OpenOffice, is a BIG difference.
And while "they" are listening to their users, "they" are NOT listening to their user base, which is ANYONE that still has and uses a classic Amiga or peruses ANY OS4 related website, including Amiga.org. Hey, it's great they're working on SMP for the X1000 users, but that doesn't do anyone any good that doesn't have one. Sure, it's great they're updating OS4.1 Classic, but it's still not doing any good to anyone whom owns a SAM. Insofar, there are 3 types of Next-Gen OS4 machines: Classic PPC, SAM and X1000s, but yet they're all plagued with the same problem and that's they don't have any modern software. That alienates potential USERS from the user base, like myself, as we have no need for purchasing an OS4 machine. I don't need to spend a grand or more on a machine just to go, "Wow.... I'd forgotten how much I loved Workbench. Welp. Time to turn this off and turn on my PC, so I can actually do some work."
If they want to bring in more users, fact is, they need to start focusing on getting 3rd Party software development back to the scene and they're failing miserably in that aspect, with the exception of OpenGL, but that's only going to go so far, as most modern games require a coreDuo at least, to even run.
Following me now?
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aCube manufactures PPC bords for industrial purpose, if they could manu. Lots of useless thing could be removed and make boards more cheaper.facture bords just for just for Amiga user, I would say that price would lower.
Everyone keeps saying that, but everyone has yet to find ONE person or company who bought one of those boards for any purpose other than amiga
os4...
No really, if people are using them for industrial purposes, where?
There are 150 boards for embedded applications that are 1/10th of the price. No one in their right mind would buy these for a manufacturing business, factory,automation, or any other industrial purpose. I CALL BULL**** on these being for anything other than running os4.
And nothing personal, I just call bull**** because people keep saying this but no one in how many years has been able to show me or anyone else
any company or even individual who used one of these boards for industrial applications. Sure maybe someone did, but its not a volume larger
then the volume they sold for os4 users. They won't release sales figures... or even any examples of people using them for their "so called" main purpose.
Why is that?
They're probably keeping their real business separated from the Amiga related crap. If they do consulting, they could be selling their kit along with their services and you'd never hear about it. They have to be making money somewhere, I don't see how they could survive just from servicing the HyperionOS crowd.
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They're probably keeping their real business separated from the Amiga related crap. If they do consulting, they could be selling their kit along with their services and you'd never hear about it. They have to be making money somewhere, I don't see how they could survive just from servicing the HyperionOS crowd.
Of course they do that :) I can imagine what would happend if they would say that "our biggest customer is XXX"
1000x mails per day to that customer from OS4 haters and moon bunny nuts, who would tell that customer representatives how stupid they are if they use ACube expensive products.
I would also say that those customers hasn't ever heard name ACube
As for industrial use customer don't actually pay for products, they pay for services and/or support. So it is prety much same, if price 10€ or 10 000€. Stopping factory can cost millions of euros per minit, wich makes prices under millions meaningless.
Industrial use, is how ever only answer why Sam boards are like they are, full of useless/weird expansions and features as for Amiga user point of view.
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They're probably keeping their real business separated from the Amiga related crap. If they do consulting, they could be selling their kit along with their services and you'd never hear about it. They have to be making money somewhere, I don't see how they could survive just from servicing the HyperionOS crowd.
Of course they do that I can imagine what would happend if they would say that "our biggest customer is XXX"
Oh come on, thats a bunch of bull****. Not one person in the amiga community has in how many years now seen of or heard of any of these boards in any company, project or place in the world besides for running amiga OS?
I hate to be cynical but I think that story is just a bull**** story to justify charging so much for them. The whole thing makes no sense. "This boards are primarily for embedded applications" Yet no one I know, in the computer world,electronics world, robotics world, manufacturing world,(besides even the amiga community) has ever seen one, heard of one, or used one?
I STILL call bull**** on that story until someone shows me someone besides an
amiga fan using one for any other reason than to run AOS4 on it.
Yep, I STILL call bull****.
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Don't like the product, don't buy it. Pretty simple really. I personally recommend everyone tries the NG Amiga platforms. They really are a lot of fun to use, assuming you have your head screwed on right.
This place would be a lot easier if the dedicated wingnuts of each given camp would just have red or blue themed avatars.
IT'S AN AMIGA LIKE OS, ANY OF THESE. The functional, usable equivalent of pissing into an oncoming wind when it comes to real world usage these days. Fun. A hobby. Nothing more. Love it for what it is, and support it - but man, be realistic. If you think ANYONE is running Blender for full time rendering on a SAM or MOS rig vs. the $100 PC beside them that will outperform said "Amiga" by 100x, you're on glue. No one is encoding MP3's on one. That's stupid, and so are the benchmarks proving superiority one camp vs. the next. Enjoy them for what they are, eh? Support the community as a whole, don't be a factionalist turd.
A hobby.
That's AROS. That's MOS. That's OS4. There will be no "comeuppance". Windows 8 sucking won't bring us to the big leagues. We're bush league.
I have a lot of fun in said "bush league" these days.
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Don't like the product, don't buy it. Pretty simple really. I personally recommend everyone tries the NG Amiga platforms. They really are a lot of fun to use, assuming you have your head screwed on right.
Again, though, how exactly are we supposed to do that? MorphOS I can try by picking up a used Mac at the local recycle center or public school for beer money (one that will, if I turn out not to like MorphOS, serve perfectly well for running OS9 and old MECC games) and burning a live CD; there's no such comparable option for OS4. (Correct me if I'm missing something, but) In order to give OS4 a shot, I'd have to drop $500-900 on a board (which does at least tend to come with the OS,) more for a PSU, hard drive, RAM, mouse, and keyboard at least (that's assuming OS4 supports the onboard Silicon Motion audio/video?) That's an investment of up to $1100 just to try the thing! See the problem here?
I would honestly be 100% open to giving OS4 a shot if there were any reasonably accessible way to give it a try and find out if I like it before blowing that kind of money on a system, but there's just not.
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They're probably keeping their real business separated from the Amiga related crap. If they do consulting, they could be selling their kit along with their services and you'd never hear about it. They have to be making money somewhere, I don't see how they could survive just from servicing the HyperionOS crowd.
Of course they do that I can imagine what would happend if they would say that "our biggest customer is XXX"
Oh come on, thats a bunch of bull****. Not one person in the amiga community has in how many years now seen of or heard of any of these boards in any company, project or place in the world besides for running amiga OS?
I hate to be cynical but I think that story is just a bull**** story to justify charging so much for them. The whole thing makes no sense. "This boards are primarily for embedded applications" Yet no one I know, in the computer world,electronics world, robotics world, manufacturing world,(besides even the amiga community) has ever seen one, heard of one, or used one?
I STILL call bull**** on that story until someone shows me someone besides an
amiga fan using one for any other reason than to run AOS4 on it.
Yep, I STILL call bull****.
Strong statement.
Might be partially true, who knows. Undeniable fact is that those mobos are designed to embedded use, another fact is that several companies sell them to that use. Seems also that there are Sam variants wich hasn't sold to Amiga use.
But I wouldn't wondwer if anyone in this community doesn't know any other purpose those boards, that just not unbeliable.
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Again, though, how exactly are we supposed to do that? MorphOS I can try by picking up a used Mac at the local recycle center or public school for beer money (one that will, if I turn out not to like MorphOS, serve perfectly well for running OS9 and old MECC games) and burning a live CD; there's no such comparable option for OS4. (Correct me if I'm missing something, but) In order to give OS4 a shot, I'd have to drop $500-900 on a board (which does at least tend to come with the OS,) more for a PSU, hard drive, RAM, mouse, and keyboard at least (that's assuming OS4 supports the onboard Silicon Motion audio/video?) That's an investment of up to $1100 just to try the thing! See the problem here?
I would honestly be 100% open to giving OS4 a shot if there were any reasonably accessible way to give it a try and find out if I like it before blowing that kind of money on a system, but there's just not.
that might exactly be a reason not to provide a demo version and not support any cheaply available hardware. if you need to invest considerable amount of money beforehand you will not easily give up, even if what you get wouldnt live to your expectations. a customer in such a situation tries to sit it through, convince himself that the product is not so bad and hope for the future improvements. especially if there is no return option, or it means even more stress and investments, like for instance high postal risks and costs.
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I would honestly be 100% open to giving OS4 a shot if there were any reasonably accessible way to give it a try and find out if I like it before blowing that kind of money on a system, but there's just not.
you're right. it's a serious barrier to entry. when i was interested in purchasing a next-generation amiga back in 2010, i looked around for anyone nearby with one, to no avail. the closest i could get to 'trying' one of the machines out was youtube videos, reviews online, and reading people's experiences on the fora.
in the end i took the plunge on the least expensive system out there, a SAM440ep-flex. i'm really glad i did, because i loved it and have been hooked since. but i would have been out of a few hundred smackers otherwise. the same holds true for MOS, but there you'd be hard pressed not to find someone with a compatible machine, and if you still couldn't, the lowest-cost system is a darn sight cheaper.
it really is a shame because these machines are a great amiga experience. i think they're losing out on a bunch of potential customers.
-- eliyahu
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I would honestly be 100% open to giving OS4 a shot if there were any reasonably accessible way to give it a try and find out if I like it before blowing that kind of money on a system, but there's just not.[/QUOTE]
You can try MOS on a Mac - thats quite cheap and easy - if You really want to try. You can be assured AOS 4 (if that is your preferred taste) is for sure not lightyears different from that experience.
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Aren't there any amiga clubs/meetings not far away from shere you live? Or any os4 users not far away so you can test it first?
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John - I'm sure most OS4 guys wouldn't mind letting you VNC into their machines. I know I've done it for a few guys that wanted to try it.
The hardware is expensive when new, but since the 460's came out the old 440's have come on the market used at reasonable (relative to their brand new, initial launch prices) prices. Guy not far from me recently sold his 440 flex mobo and OS4 license for $200. Still not as cheap as a Mac Mini (I got mine for free, essentially) and MOS, though.
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@John, you complaining about the price is just one thing though. You did tell me there where things that AOS4.1 can't do that windows can do, which was another complaint of yours. Again, what are those things?
We've been there before...
Steam comes to mind...
Eclipse...
Silverlight...
Visual Studio...
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After some years Sam boards price will rise again, as every unique hardware does, so 200 is very good price for mobo and licence.
Sam 440 Flex has a best software support currently and it is surpricingly fast.
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After some years Sam boards price will rise again, as every unique hardware does, so 200 is very good price for mobo and licence.
Sam 440 Flex has a best software support currently and it is surpricingly fast.
But isn't it when SAM 440 Flex have best software support these same software can run on AmigaOne X1000 too without importing them or every AmigaOS 4.x hardware is different?
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Guy not far from me recently sold his 440 flex mobo and OS4 license for $200. Still not as cheap as a Mac Mini (I got mine for free, essentially) and MOS, though.
The 440's are no longer produced and quite frankly for as underpowered as it is, 200$ should be the NEW, purchase price, not used.
I remember when the Efika first came out. I was REALLY tempted to buy one, 'cos it was 99$. I stopped short when people said they were having problems due to the limited ram, but that's a GOOD entry level price and you got a 30 minute time limit with MorphOS. You can even still by Efika's from Directron.
This is what completely baffles me about Hyperion and how over the years, I've gradually stopped being a "Red Camp" cheerleader. Please explain this logic to me, 'cos I really don't get it. I buy a SAM for 500$. Then, I have to get a hard drive, gfx card, case, power supply. I'll say I'm using an old dell keyboard and USB IR mouse I have ('cos I have spares.) I get all this for a total of 750$. After 2 or 3 weeks, I decide that OS4 isn't for me. Well, there's no 30 day warranty. I can't "return my product for a full refund", therefore I'm stuck with it. Even if I could return it, odds are, I'm stuck paying for shipping, which is just more money out of my pocket. Only I don't want it. So, my only option is to sell it on eBay or Amibay or via Craigslist. *BUT*, I have to sell it at a loss, 'cos regardless of the fact I only used it 2 or 3 weeks, it's still *USED* and there's always a risk when you buy used. This is Amigaland, remember?
Then, there's the subject of a warranty. While I am of the 100% opinion that Amigakit would honor this: "Hey. I bought [Name]'s SAM as he didn't want it anymore. I have his original receipt, all the boxes, manuals, etc., but it seems to not be working, yet it's still under the original warranty. Can I return it?"
However, my experiences with companies like SoftHut, VisionTek and Anti-Gravity made me skeptical with Amiga Businesses. In fact, the only reason I hold Amigakit in such high regard is a) I've seen how they package their shipments b) I've seen nothing but praise about them and c) when there IS a problem, ChrisF or someone else jumps on it as quickly as possible to fix it and typically doesn't rest until they do.
I'm NOT trolling, I'm making astute observations. I've wanted to buy an OS4 system for years, but short of the SAMs (which are still overpriced in my eyes, for what I get and I'm entitled to MY opinion), not a single piece of kit for OS4 has pushed me to go, "Oh WoW! I've just GOTTA have that!"
That is NOT fair to the end consumer and it's actually poor business logic. As I said before, there's absolutely ZERO incentive to purchase an OS4 machine, unless you just have the money to burn and are a zealot.
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The 440's are no longer produced and quite frankly for as underpowered as it is, 200$ should be the NEW, purchase price, not used.
I remember when the Efika first came out. I was REALLY tempted to buy one, 'cos it was 99$. I stopped short when people said they were having problems due to the limited ram, but that's a GOOD entry level price and you got a 30 minute time limit with MorphOS. You can even still by Efika's from Directron.
they are still produced, actually. acube just did another run a few months ago and they sold out quickly. if any were available (!) you could pick them up new, with warranty, for under $350. but... that doesn't include the OS license.
This is what completely baffles me about Hyperion and how over the years, I've gradually stopped being a "Red Camp" cheerleader. Please explain this logic to me, 'cos I really don't get it. I buy a SAM for 500$. Then, I have to get a hard drive, gfx card, case, power supply. I'll say I'm using an old dell keyboard and USB IR mouse I have ('cos I have spares.) I get all this for a total of 750$. After 2 or 3 weeks, I decide that OS4 isn't for me. Well, there's no 30 day warranty. I can't "return my product for a full refund", therefore I'm stuck with it. Even if I could return it, odds are, I'm stuck paying for shipping, which is just more money out of my pocket. Only I don't want it. So, my only option is to sell it on eBay or Amibay or via Craigslist. *BUT*, I have to sell it at a loss, 'cos regardless of the fact I only used it 2 or 3 weeks, it's still *USED* and there's always a risk when you buy used. This is Amigaland, remember?
Then, there's the subject of a warranty. While I am of the 100% opinion that Amigakit would honor this: "Hey. I bought [Name]'s SAM as he didn't want it anymore. I have his original receipt, all the boxes, manuals, etc., but it seems to not be working, yet it's still under the original warranty. Can I return it?"
However, my experiences with companies like SoftHut, VisionTek and Anti-Gravity made me skeptical with Amiga Businesses. In fact, the only reason I hold Amigakit in such high regard is a) I've seen how they package their shipments b) I've seen nothing but praise about them and c) when there IS a problem, ChrisF or someone else jumps on it as quickly as possible to fix it and typically doesn't rest until they do.
i can only say that i and others have had occasion to return hardware to either acube or amigakit, and the items were repaired or replaced. acube is/was selling SAM440ep-flex systems complete with graphics card, storage, DVD drive, etc., fully assembled for around $700USD. and with a two-year warranty. i believe they also allow the systems to be returned. but, yes, you would have to pay for return shipping.
I'm NOT trolling, I'm making astute observations. I've wanted to buy an OS4 system for years, but short of the SAMs (which are still overpriced in my eyes, for what I get and I'm entitled to MY opinion), not a single piece of kit for OS4 has pushed me to go, "Oh WoW! I've just GOTTA have that!"
That is NOT fair to the end consumer and it's actually poor business logic. As I said before, there's absolutely ZERO incentive to purchase an OS4 machine, unless you just have the money to burn and are a zealot.
i don't think you are trolling. i think you are an example of several people i have talked with since being an active 'next-gen' amigan. lots of people would love to try an AOS4-based computer, but the cost of entry is too high. as for things being 'overpriced,' that's in the eye of the beholder. i was very worried my SAM would be too underpowered for much of anything, but in reality it was much more performant than i expected. the X1000 did say 'gotta have it' to me, but i ended up spending the money on something else after waiting so long to get an order link.
the good news is that the systems that are coming should be both more performant and cheaper than what we have now. but, as always in amiga-land, we're waiting. if you were in the tri-state area, i'd drive over with one of my machines so you could check it out. but that's not really something people should have to do. the VNC idea mentioned earlier seems something they should offer on request for interested parties.
if you do go for it, i think you'll be pleased with your purchase. it's just a shame there isn't a way for you to try before you buy. i don't suppose i could tempt you into joining us at amiwest this fall? there are tons of next-gen and classic amigas on display, with lots of nice people to chat with, including some of the principal movers and shakers these days. just something to keep in the back of your mind. :)
-- eliyahu
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that might exactly be a reason not to provide a demo version and not support any cheaply available hardware. if you need to invest considerable amount of money beforehand you will not easily give up, even if what you get wouldnt live to your expectations. a customer in such a situation tries to sit it through, convince himself that the product is not so bad and hope for the future improvements. especially if there is no return option, or it means even more stress and investments, like for instance high postal risks and costs.
You realize that you're describing Customer's Stockholm Syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-purchase_rationalization) here? It's certainly true that someone who invests a lot of money in something that doesn't live up to their expectations won't as easily give up and admit that it may not have been the best purchase, but that doesn't make the purchase any better. All it means is you're going to have among your userbase a certain class of user who really doesn't like the product as much as they say they do, but refuses to admit that, to themselves or anybody else. And there's still going to be that barrier to entry for everybody else who might otherwise be interested.
You can try MOS on a Mac - thats quite cheap and easy - if You really want to try. You can be assured AOS 4 (if that is your preferred taste) is for sure not lightyears different from that experience.
Probably not a whole lot different, but it still tells me nothing definite about whether I'd have problems with OS4 specifically, and when looking at a purchase in the hundreds-to-a-thousand range, definite is something I really, really want. When I bought a synthesizer (http://www.vintagesynth.com/oberheim/mat6.php) from a guy in Superior yesterday, for example, I didn't just hand him money and then take it sight-unseen; I went over to his house, spent a couple hours testing it, getting a feel for the sound, the keyboard, and the interface, and making sure all the keys worked and were responsive. I dropped $300 on that thing, but I can feel sure that it was worth it, because I was able to make sure I liked it and that it didn't have any problems before I bought it. OS4 does not make that kind of demoing easy, or often even possible.
John - I'm sure most OS4 guys wouldn't mind letting you VNC into their machines. I know I've done it for a few guys that wanted to try it.
Really? That's big of you. I'm not going to be actually looking at an OS4 system-caliber purchase any time soon, but I would be interested in getting a feel for it.
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they are still produced, actually. acube just did another run a few months ago and they sold out quickly. if any were available (!) you could pick them up new, with warranty, for under $350. but... that doesn't include the OS license.
Yeah, but with the license, the 733mhz SAM440 mobo is still over 500$. I can build a low-end PC for that. Once again, it's all about demand. The demand is for CHEAPER hardware. I get the X1000 and it was a great system, but I truly feel that A-EON's money, not to mention the 100k a year for "development" would have been more cost-effective to reduce the price of the entry level boards. My gigabyte board with my 8 core 4 Ghz AM3+ 8350 cost less than the sole price of the SAM mobo. Since I can't demo OS4, I HAVE to buy the license with the board to get any use. Otherwise, it's just wasted silicon. I'm starting to wonder if we should start hounding Hyperion about making downloadable demo ISOs of OS4, but I'm pretty sure it will fall on deaf ears.
i can only say that i and others have had occasion to return hardware to either acube or amigakit, and the items were repaired or replaced. acube is/was selling SAM440ep-flex systems complete with graphics card, storage, DVD drive, etc., fully assembled for around $700USD. and with a two-year warranty. i believe they also allow the systems to be returned. but, yes, you would have to pay for return shipping.
That does make me feel better. I never got reimbursed for the 50$ coupon I purchased for the early bird scheme. I bought into Big Mac's "buy Amiga" back in 2000 and purchased a NOS A1200 from SoftHut, to get stuck with shoddy workbench disks and it took near two months, finally emailing Big Mac himself about it, to even get replacement copies sent. I was one of the fools that pre-ordered a Boxer back in 1997 from Anti-Gravity. That's not even the tip of my Amiga troubles in the past.
i don't think you are trolling. i think you are an example of several people i have talked with since being an active 'next-gen' amigan. lots of people would love to try an AOS4-based computer, but the cost of entry is too high. as for things being 'overpriced,' that's in the eye of the beholder. i was very worried my SAM would be too underpowered for much of anything, but in reality it was much more performant than i expected. the X1000 did say 'gotta have it' to me, but i ended up spending the money on something else after waiting so long to get an order link.
the good news is that the systems that are coming should be both more performant and cheaper than what we have now. but, as always in amiga-land, we're waiting. if you were in the tri-state area, i'd drive over with one of my machines so you could check it out. but that's not really something people should have to do. the VNC idea mentioned earlier seems something they should offer on request for interested parties.
if you do go for it, i think you'll be pleased with your purchase. it's just a shame there isn't a way for you to try before you buy. i don't suppose i could tempt you into joining us at amiwest this fall? there are tons of next-gen and classic amigas on display, with lots of nice people to chat with, including some of the principal movers and shakers these days. just something to keep in the back of your mind. :)
-- eliyahu
It's not that it's "overpriced." It's more price comparison. I'm trying to rationalize and justify the expenditure, especially in the current economy. Here's a simple analogy to sum up my issues.
If you could buy your favorite car maker's new automobile, but it was only available with bicycle pedals, meaning you had to do all the work, or would you buy a generic, new automobile that had an automatic transmission, 40mpg city, power everything, when they both cost the same price?
Unfortunately, I won't be to Amiwest any time soon, much to my dismay. Have a fiancee and a step-kid now, so my traveling isn't like what it used to be. :knuddel:
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If you could buy your favorite car maker's new automobile, but it was only available with bicycle pedals, meaning you had to do all the work, or would you buy a generic, new automobile that had an automatic transmission, 40mpg city, power everything, when they both cost the same price?
You can't possible compare car and computer, or at least you should compare hobby car, like Mini Cooper and "practical" car, like Toyota. Still it wouldn't be same, I don't have room for third car, but I have room for 21 computers, 5 of them are used dayli, 3 Amigas and 2 Win 7 machines.
Price of Sam is not much for working adult, it is hobby machine. I could easily imagine much more stupid hobby, I even know some people how have stupid hobby. ;) BUT I wouldn't say that to them.
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I'll second that.
I spend more on my motorcycles.
And a SAM won't get me killed.
Once MorphOS is released for the SAM460, I might have to buy one.
It would be nice to have a machine that could boot both AOS4.1 and MorphOS (without hunting down a Pegasos).
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You realize that you're describing Customer's Stockholm Syndrome here?
i knew it must have a name. i didnt know it to be a manifestation of stockholm syndrome, but it is widely taken advantage in marketing, that for sure. which is probably legitimate, but doasnt make it any more sympathetic. i must say also in this respect morphos team has choosen much more credible strategy.
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The 440's are no longer produced and quite frankly for as underpowered as it is, 200$ should be the NEW, purchase price, not used.
440 is not under powered, or at least you woun't get that feeling if you use one. Web surfing is fluent experience and watching PAL/NTSC avis without problems. I bought 440 Flex, I waited it to be "underpowered" prety much for every use, but that is not a situation. Though, no matter how much CPU power you have, it always possible get it to limits. For me it has been positive surprice, mostly because negative feedback from users wich hasn't ever used one.
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So 420p/720p videos on Youtube are perfectly playable on 440 and Quake3 runs >25 fps on FullHD resolution? If not, Sam 440 is underpowered (like most neoAmiga machines)
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Utri and Iggy,
Obviously the term "analogy" is lost on the two of you. ;P
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Dude, not sure when you said that but I'm totally with you, everything I do is pc/mac based of which I have both, my wife can't understand why I would need another computer, much less, one that is 20 years old (yes this debate is going on right as I type). The amiga for me is to satisfy my need to modify an iconic peice of computing history to make is useable in today's world, but I draw the line when I can purchase a 12 core Mac Pro for the price of what they want for a power pc running amiga os.