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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: SirGraham on December 18, 2012, 06:56:55 PM
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Hello!!!
I have an SCSI-II 74 Gb Seagate HDD ready to be set up on my Amiga. It's now plugged and has SCSI ID = 3
SCSIConfig detects that the HDD is bigger that 4Gb, says that I need TD64>= 44.4 FFS patch and asks me whether I want to limit the HDD size to 4 Gb. I answer no. As far as I see, I can perform a low level format I haven't done, though.
On the other hand, I've installed PFS3 (http://viglink.pgpartner.com/rd.php?r=402&m=759795959&q=n&rdgt=1355756239&it=1355929039&et=1356361039&priceret=212.49&pg=%7E%7E3&k=8d054d70e1df1c6be3e804c8dd9083ab&source=feed&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eamazon%2Ecom%2Fdp%2FB000C5HR36%2Fref%3Dasc%5Fdf%5FB000C5HR362308955%3Fsmid%3DATVPDKIKX0DER%26tag%3Dpg%2D93%2D01%2D20%26linkCode%3Dasn%26creative%3D395097%26creativeASIN%3DB000C5HR36&st=feed&mt=%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7En%7E%7E%7E) 5.3 but HDInstTools says 'No devices found' once and again. Please, is PFS3 (http://viglink.pgpartner.com/rd.php?r=402&m=759795959&q=n&rdgt=1355756239&it=1355929039&et=1356361039&priceret=212.49&pg=%7E%7E3&k=8d054d70e1df1c6be3e804c8dd9083ab&source=feed&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eamazon%2Ecom%2Fdp%2FB000C5HR36%2Fref%3Dasc%5Fdf%5FB000C5HR362308955%3Fsmid%3DATVPDKIKX0DER%26tag%3Dpg%2D93%2D01%2D20%26linkCode%3Dasn%26creative%3D395097%26creativeASIN%3DB000C5HR36&st=feed&mt=%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7En%7E%7E%7E) working on my system?
PFS3 should govern SCSI data movement over Workbench, I think, but what I have now is that Workbench recognizes the HDD in a limited way and PFS3 (http://viglink.pgpartner.com/rd.php?r=402&m=759795959&q=n&rdgt=1355756239&it=1355929039&et=1356361039&priceret=212.49&pg=%7E%7E3&k=8d054d70e1df1c6be3e804c8dd9083ab&source=feed&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eamazon%2Ecom%2Fdp%2FB000C5HR36%2Fref%3Dasc%5Fdf%5FB000C5HR362308955%3Fsmid%3DATVPDKIKX0DER%26tag%3Dpg%2D93%2D01%2D20%26linkCode%3Dasn%26creative%3D395097%26creativeASIN%3DB000C5HR36&st=feed&mt=%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7En%7E%7E%7E) doesn't even that.
Thank you.
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Hello!!!
I have an SCSI-II 74 Gb Seagate HDD ready to be set up on my Amiga. It's now plugged and has SCSI ID = 3
SCSIConfig detects that the HDD is bigger that 4Gb, says that I need TD64>= 44.4 FFS patch and asks me whether I want to limit the HDD size to 4 Gb. I answer no. As far as I see, I can perform a low level format I haven't done, though.
On the other hand, I've installed PFS3 (http://viglink.pgpartner.com/rd.php?r=402&m=759795959&q=n&rdgt=1355756239&it=1355929039&et=1356361039&priceret=212.49&pg=%7E%7E3&k=8d054d70e1df1c6be3e804c8dd9083ab&source=feed&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eamazon%2Ecom%2Fdp%2FB000C5HR36%2Fref%3Dasc%5Fdf%5FB000C5HR362308955%3Fsmid%3DATVPDKIKX0DER%26tag%3Dpg%2D93%2D01%2D20%26linkCode%3Dasn%26creative%3D395097%26creativeASIN%3DB000C5HR36&st=feed&mt=%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7En%7E%7E%7E) 5.3 but HDInstTools says 'No devices found' once and again. Please, is PFS3 (http://viglink.pgpartner.com/rd.php?r=402&m=759795959&q=n&rdgt=1355756239&it=1355929039&et=1356361039&priceret=212.49&pg=%7E%7E3&k=8d054d70e1df1c6be3e804c8dd9083ab&source=feed&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eamazon%2Ecom%2Fdp%2FB000C5HR36%2Fref%3Dasc%5Fdf%5FB000C5HR362308955%3Fsmid%3DATVPDKIKX0DER%26tag%3Dpg%2D93%2D01%2D20%26linkCode%3Dasn%26creative%3D395097%26creativeASIN%3DB000C5HR36&st=feed&mt=%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7En%7E%7E%7E) working on my system?
PFS3 should govern SCSI data movement over Workbench, I think, but what I have now is that Workbench recognizes the HDD in a limited way and PFS3 (http://viglink.pgpartner.com/rd.php?r=402&m=759795959&q=n&rdgt=1355756239&it=1355929039&et=1356361039&priceret=212.49&pg=%7E%7E3&k=8d054d70e1df1c6be3e804c8dd9083ab&source=feed&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eamazon%2Ecom%2Fdp%2FB000C5HR36%2Fref%3Dasc%5Fdf%5FB000C5HR362308955%3Fsmid%3DATVPDKIKX0DER%26tag%3Dpg%2D93%2D01%2D20%26linkCode%3Dasn%26creative%3D395097%26creativeASIN%3DB000C5HR36&st=feed&mt=%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7E%7En%7E%7E%7E) doesn't even that.
Thank you.
You never need to low level any HD. dont confuse this with a regular workbench format. Modern drives dont need low leveling.
I also dont recommend you use HDinsttools, it does weird things to the RDB and is not exactly compatible if memory serves me right.
Use Hdtoolbox(or the one with os3.9) (os3.9 has patches for big drives). You need to go into the icon info and edit it for the scsi.device you are using so it finds the drive. You dont mention what hardware you are using,so a bit hard to help.
In any case, keep the first partition small, say 1GB or so and you can make the others bigger. pfs3 direct scsi should do for you.
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This is my machine:
A4000T
Motherboard: Micronik 6960 Rev 4.0
Phase 5 digital Products CyberStorm Mk2 68060 50 mHz
Phase 5 digital Products CyberSCSI MK2
RAM: 64 mb FAST and 2 mb Chip
CyberVision 64/3D with scandoubler
ImpactVision 24
HDD: IBM OEM SCSI-2 2150 mb
CD-ROM: ultraplex 40max
Workbench 3.1
Trying to install: Seagate 74 gb HDD with PFS3
Directory L has several PFS3's filesystems like PFS3, PFS3-020, PFS3-060 and several more, most of them copied by hand by me.
I've edited HDToolBox.info and tried several SCSI device names with no success. Please, do you know the name of the device I should use? It was scsi.device, for which, by the way, I have found no file at all. With scsi.device, HDToolBox founds no drives, not even my 2 gb HDD. What can I do?
Thanks.
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I Think you need to set it to CybScsi.device in order to see your drives,
Are you familiar with installing file systems etc?
Robert.
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I'll try that. I have never installed a hard disk into an Amiga. Several weeks ago I did'nt even know PFS3 existed.
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With cybscsi.device the system recognizes the HDD. :)
Now, I have to choose drive type but none of them seems to be the best. For example, with SEAGATE ST51080N I have only 1 gb with two partitions. I can create a new type but I don't know its parameters. I also clicked the 'Read Configuration' button but says the size can't be read.
PFS3 is NOT in the list of file systems so I've added it (PFS3-060) with DosType= 0x444f5303 but it says 'International (FFS)' in the file system name.:eek:
Any ideas?
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Now, I have to choose drive type but none of them seems to be the best. For example, with SEAGATE ST51080N I have only 1 gb with two partitions.
If you had an original WB 3.1 install disk, there should be no models in the list. What you see is the list of harddrives the previous owner(s) of the disk installed. Surely none of those match your specific harddrive. This list is completely useless. Nobody ever installs the same model of harddrives twice in his life.
I can create a new type but I don't know its parameters. I also clicked the 'Read Configuration' button but says the size can't be read.
What are the parameters HDToolbox uses after Read Config?
And what is the exact model number of your HDD so that one can search for documentation on the net?
PFS3 is NOT in the list of file systems so I've added it (PFS3-060) with DosType= 0x444f5303 but it says 'International (FFS)' in the file system name.
444f5303 is the identifier for FFS International. Why did you enter it? Please read the documentation which comes with PFS3. It describes very detailed how the file system is installed correctly.
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Thank you, Thomas.
HDD is Seagate ST373207LW. I have the PDF manual I used in order to set SCSI ID to 3.
I didn't type 444f530. It was the value by default, I guess.
I'll check the rest tomorrow.
Thank you again.
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The PDF says that the drive has a total number of blocks of 143,374,744. So you should select values for cylinders, heads and sectors (per track) so that cylinders * heads * sectors becomes next to 143,374,744 but not bigger than that.
Also make sure that heads * sectors is next to 2000, otherwise not enough space will be reserved for the partition table. heads * sectors (per track) is the value for sectors per cylinder.
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You never need to low level any HD.
In the old days you bought an ST506 hard drive, which acted like a big floppy disk drive and then you had to buy a controller to go along with it. Like floppy disks they then needed to be formatted and the controller defines the format of the data. Each manufacturer could do things differently, so if you swapped controllers you needed to format it again.
It's done at the factory now, low level formatting hasn't been required for 20 years. i.e. since the drive controller was shrunk and stuck to the bottom of the drive.
You usually don't swap controllers between drives these days, apart from data recovery. In which case you have to swap it with an identical one. Partly because the formatting is different, but also because now there is no need for a standardised connection to the hard drive and lastly because the controller firmware is stored on a hidden part of the drive.
If you could low level format the entire drive, then you'd wipe out the controller firmware. At the factory they can bootstrap a drive from scratch, but they keep that secret.
Hard drives also do transparent remapping of bad sectors now & the bad block map is also stored on a hidden part of the drive. In the old days the drive would come with a sticker that listed the bad areas and after a low level format you would be prompted to type it in. Now they don't advertise how many bad blocks there are and low level formatting would lose the hidden copy on the disk.
The SCSI command for low level formatting these days probably just writes a pattern to the good data sectors on the drive and doesn't actually do a low level format.
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At the factory they can bootstrap a drive from scratch
Can you explain that? ;)
Especially if it helps to start a drive with a controller from another drive.
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You may be better off using PFS-060ds (Direct SCSI) If you're running Workbench 3.1, otherwise you'll be limited to just under 4gb of Hard disk space :-
When adding the filesystem to the RDB, if you're not using the standard FastFileSystem, you have to change the identifier number to suit the selected filesystem,
If you are running OS 3.1 or earlier, you may be better off using 'HDInstTools' From Aminet as 3.1's HDToolbox doesn't always recognise large drives, and may read them as a totally different size.
Let us know if you're using 3.1 or above and we can go from there :-)
Robert.
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Just use PFS3-All-In-One (http://aminet.net/package/disk/misc/pfs3aio) and be done with it :).
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You may be better off using PFS-060ds (Direct SCSI) If you're running Workbench 3.1, otherwise you'll be limited to just under 4gb of Hard disk space :-
This is not true. He is running his SCSI drive on a Phase5 controller which supports TD64. Together with PFS3 this is the ideal combination without limits. The DS version wil work, too, though.
If you are running OS 3.1 or earlier, you may be better off using 'HDInstTools' From Aminet
This is not true, either. HDInstTools is incompatible to all other partitioning programs. It should not be used.
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If you use HdInstTools from the beginning and remember to only use it then compatibility with other programs isn't an issue, I think it is correct that you will have problems reading the size of and partitioning larger drives with HDToolbox from Workbench 3.1.
I was working on the assumption that TD64 Wasn't yet installed so thought that using SCSI Direct from the start would be easier and give the same desired results.
Robert.
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TD64 is nothing you can "install". It is either built in the driver or not. And for Phase5 drivers it is built in. Phase5 is one of the parties who invented TD64 and agreed to it as standard.
What you can install the the patch for FastFileSystem to support TD64. But if you use PFS you don't need to patch FFS because you don't use it anyway.
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Ah, I thought TD64 was something to install, similar to NSDPatch, but am I correct in saying this chap won't be able to fully partition his 74gb drive using an older HDToolbox?
Robert.
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TD64 is then the API definition of the driver? that makes it possible to write a drive oneself.
Which leaves the SCSI controller chip. Does the chip limit the length of the SCSI commands in a way that larger drives will be limited?
(read6 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SCSI_Read_Commands#Read_.286.29) - 1 GB, read10 - 2 TB, read16 - 8 388 608 PiB)
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Ah, I thought TD64 was something to install, similar to NSDPatch, but am I correct in saying this chap won't be able to fully partition his 74gb drive using an older HDToolbox?
Robert.
No, HDToolbox works correctly. It only tries to calculate capacities with 32bit numbers which certainly overflows above 4GB. But this only affects the sizes which are displayed in the GUI. Internally it works with cylinder numbers and this works correctly.
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What is the free partitioning tool of choice?
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Personally I like the HDToolbox from OS 3.9 the most, But I reckon HDInstTools is pretty decent - I tend to stick with drives 4gb or less on OS 3.1 or lower so usually just use the standard HDToolbox.
Robert.
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I use HDToolBox under WorkBench 3.1.
I'm here right now trying to figure out how to set this HDD up. In a manual I've read it has 90773 cylinders and 2 heads. I would need blocks per track and blocks per cylinder. As Thomas said, we have 143,374,744 blocks (sectors). Besides, at the end of this link http://discountechnology.com/Seagate-ST373207LW-SCSI-Hard-Drive we can see: 181,548 tracks
Blocks per track = 143.374.744/181.584 = 789
Blocks per cylinder = 143.374.744/90773 = 1580
With these parameters HDToolBox reports the HDD has 397 mb :eek:
It's not difficult to get negative sizes. If those parameters were correct, the size should be less than 0, isn't it? Because we are talking about more than 4 gb.
About the filesystem, I've seen this somewhere:
Custom file system PFS3-060ds
Mask 0x7ffffffe
mas transfer 0x00ffffff (UPDATE - now set at 0x0001FE00)
block size 512
buffers 300
Is really possible install this HDD with workbench 3.1 or I need a higher version?
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You could try HDInstTools... It will detect the drive size and allow you to partition the drive without entering your own numbers for size, cylinders etc.
Robert.
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I like these web pages to help under stand installing large hard drives.
http://thomas-rapp.homepage.t-online.de/filesyslimits.html
http://thomas-rapp.homepage.t-online.de/4gb_faq.html
http://www.youngmonkey.ca/nose/articles/NewTekniques_9810/AmigaInMotion.html
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I use HDToolBox under WorkBench 3.1.
I'm here right now trying to figure out how to set this HDD up. In a manual I've read it has 90773 cylinders and 2 heads. I would need blocks per track and blocks per cylinder. As Thomas said, we have 143,374,744 blocks (sectors). Besides, at the end of this link http://discountechnology.com/Seagate-ST373207LW-SCSI-Hard-Drive we can see: 181,548 tracks
Blocks per track = 143.374.744/181.584 = 789
Blocks per cylinder = 143.374.744/90773 = 1580
You make it far too complicated. The values for cylinders / heads / sectors are logical values needed by dos.library. They are in no way related to the real physical geometry of the disk. You can choose them freely.
I already told you that the formula is
cylinders * blocks per track * heads = total number of blocks
and
blocks per track * heads = blocks per cylinder
and that blocks per cylinder should be next to 1 MB (2048 blocks). Also no value should exeed 32768 too much.
So we know that the drive has 143,374,744 blocks. This is a difficult number for calculating nice cylinder sizes because it is only divisible by 8 and 17921843 which is a prime number.
Well, if I just ignore that I would choose
Cylinders = 70007
Heads = 8
Blocks per Track = 256
Blocks per Cylinder = 2048
This wastes 408 sectors in the end of the drive (204 KB).
Or if I made cylinders more near to 32768 I would use
Cylinders = 35003
Heads = 16
Blocks per Track = 256
Blocks per Cylinder = 4096
This wastes 2456 sectors in the end of the drive (1228 KB).
With these parameters HDToolBox reports the HDD has 397 mb :eek:
It's not difficult to get negative sizes. If those parameters were correct, the size should be less than 0, isn't it? Because we are talking about more than 4 gb.
We know that the drive has 143,374,744 sectors of 512 bytes each. This means that the real capacity of the drive is 73,407,868,928 Bytes. If you divide this by 4GB (4,294,967,296 Bytes) you get 17 times 4GB plus a remainder of 393,424,896 Bytes. The remainder, i.e. a number less than 4GB, is the only part of the capacity which can be stored in 32bits. Thus this is the value HDToolbox displays as size. Only if the remainder is larger then 2GB, it will be displayed as a negative number. In your case a display of 375 MB is correct.
About the filesystem, I've seen this somewhere:
Custom file system PFS3-060ds
Mask 0x7ffffffe
mas transfer 0x00ffffff (UPDATE - now set at 0x0001FE00)
block size 512
buffers 300
Please don't read "somewhere". Please read the documentation of PFS3!
Is really possible install this HDD with workbench 3.1 or I need a higher version?
Yes, it is possible. The question is whether you really want such a big drive with AmigaOS. Once the drive has been installed successfully, you might want to fill it with files and install software on it. There are many software titles which also have problems with numbers bigger than 2GB or 4GB. These titles may refuse to install themselves to partitions with more than 2GB free space or may later refuse to save data to these partitions because they think that there is no enough free space.
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You could try HDInstTools... It will detect the drive size and allow you to partition the drive without entering your own numbers for size, cylinders etc.
Robert.
HDToolBox FTW! You have been warned... ;)
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Just use PFS3-All-In-One (http://aminet.net/package/disk/misc/pfs3aio) and be done with it :).
Could this be installed on the RDB replacing ANY previous PFS3 version without having to reformat? For example, over the top of the directscsi kickstart1.3 version?
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It's true I don't NEED 72 gb on my Amiga. I owned that hard disk because I found it on the internet very cheap (11 €, about 15 $, everything included).
I don't know whether PFS3 is running on my system. However, cybscsi.devices does. PFS3 HDInstTool doesn't even recognize the HDD so I haven't been able to set the RDB.
HDToolBox allows me to make changes to the drive but, surprisingly, I can't save them. I've tried to set it as a couple of 2 gb partitions with no success.
This is really breaking my head. I think 4 gb will be enough for me. How can I do that o what can I do? Nothing seems to work.
Thanks!!!