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Operating System Specific Discussions => Other Operating Systems => Topic started by: Iggy on November 20, 2012, 01:45:23 AM
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In your daily life, what things do you do, that you could do with the aid of a so called "modern PC", that you do with something else?
A legacy system, NG system, your cell phone etc.
I'm curious.
Because there seems to be some kind hubris being lloated around by others that they have a set of specifications for what your devices must have, be or do to have utility in your real life.
This is important to me, because since the '70s I've been devoted to the idea of personal computing, but just like musical styles have broadened and mixed so too have the ways or electronic devices can enrich our live.
So personal computers seem less...relevant (arrgghh!).
Heck, I know people that live without computers. And with a smartphone, that's a real option.
Give me some thoughtful feedback, not the flames I've been getting lately.
Jim
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Desktop computer's (along with their operating systems) are fast becoming obsolete.
The only major things we still do on my PC are ripping movies and coding, we mostly use our smart phones and tablets to access the Net and play games in our house.
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In your daily life, what things do you do, that you could do with the aid of a so called "modern PC", that you do with something else?
Almost nothing at all. I use my PC for everything, except for Amiga things, I do those on my A1200. My A1200 is of course a desktop machine as well.
I do have an MP3 player and a Nintendo DS, though, but the MP3 player was bought for a Japanese course, and the NDS is for games that aren't available on the PC (Advance Wars series) and for mobile gaming. Otherwise I do everything on my PC/A1200.
your cell phone etc.
My cell phone isn't a smart phone, but a 15 Euro phone. Can make calls, do SMS and has Sudoku on it :D
Because there seems to be some kind hubris being lloated around by others that they have a set of specifications for what your devices must have, be or do to have utility in your real life.
Your devices must be able to do what you want. Nothing more, nothing less.
So personal computers seem less...relevant (arrgghh!).
Not to me. No desktop? No keyboard? No mouse? No room for adding what I want and how much I want? No multiple monitors? NO FECKIN'N WAY IN BLOODY HELL!!!
Heck, I know people that live without computers. And with a smartphone, that's a real option.
They're not Computer Nerds like me :D
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Basically everything I do except VST-based music production could be done on my 1GHz TiBook without any real trouble; the only real reason it's not is because I prefer Windows XP to Mac OS X. YouTube is balky on anything above 240p, but eh, it's not that essential. Haven't made any real attempts at MorphOS yet, but who knows, that might fit the bill.
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In your daily life, what things do you do, that you could do with the aid of a so called "modern PC", that you do with something else?
A legacy system, NG system, your cell phone etc.
I'm curious.
Because there seems to be some kind hubris being lloated around by others that they have a set of specifications for what your devices must have, be or do to have utility in your real life.
This is important to me, because since the '70s I've been devoted to the idea of personal computing, but just like musical styles have broadened and mixed so too have the ways or electronic devices can enrich our live.
So personal computers seem less...relevant (arrgghh!).
Heck, I know people that live without computers. And with a smartphone, that's a real option.
Give me some thoughtful feedback, not the flames I've been getting lately.
Jim
Well, lately my smartphone has become the repository for checking email, writing some google docs, lots of web surfing, calendar management, music playing, hulu/netflix/youtube watching, some casual gaming.
My modern PC I use mainly for coding, and any projects/websurfing/emailing that is better facilitated with a keyboard.
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Most of the time, I'm trying to work on video projects, which definitely can't be done retro, at least not easily. I suppose I could go old school with a toaster system but I tried a friends and found it crazy compared to modern editing in digital... Used to have alot of old analog gear, I sold it all. Now just a tiny great quality digital video camera, a pc, and me are making cool stuff...
Unfortunately I can't afford a mac and final cut so I'm using windows so I need alot of horsepower due to the very ****ty windows video editors, not complaining, things work, just some stutter occasionally while trying to edit, even on a quad core....
For everything other than video editing, I use a dual core linux pc for general stuff like writing text docs, email, youtube, irc, facebook, I have to say I highly enjoy my time on this computer, got compiz, dosbox, amiga via EUAE, most linux games, many windows games that behave in wine, alot of sound/music stuff I still tinker with. Almost all software I have used or liked since I started with computers is on this. I also dual boot aros on it but still prefer the linux side for most of my geeky adventures... This machine also boots windows xp if I need it, which I rarely do...
Thats my "modern" setup. My retro setup, which used to consist of a c64, an amiga 1200 and a color computer 3 is now gone, in favor of virtual workalikes on the linux box. More comfortable room now. But I miss the old girls...
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The modern PC, i use for everything. With quality and fast. Except Amiga things, i use my real Amiga Classic as second main computer (i can do many things, except, watch online Videos), i dont like emulate Amiga in any PC, even i have emulators.
One of the things i like use any PC is for emulate other vintage machines, current emulators have a good level of accuracy.
The smartphone i use for everythings too, including emulation!. You know, this gadgets its a real mini real/complete Computer in your pocket. That one of the best invention ever!.
I dont think, the Desktops PCs, will disappear, becouse because they are necessary for various applications including industrial uses. I dont know, but i think will for a while more.
The thing is if the Laptops Computers will disappear. I think that these machines may disappear short-term as Desktop computers.
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I really like the idea of a nicely decked out 1200 next to your main pc but its rough to make happen. Had it for awhile but the 1200 was so hit or miss. Problems...accelerator half life. ram problems. Scan doubling troubles...
Emulation just easier...
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Basically everything I do except VST-based music production could be done on my 1GHz TiBook without any real trouble; the only real reason it's not is because I prefer Windows XP to Mac OS X. YouTube is balky on anything above 240p, but eh, it's not that essential. Haven't made any real attempts at MorphOS yet, but who knows, that might fit the bill.
I prefer Mac OSX; it has no stupid task bar, it has a menu bar at the top of the screen where I expect it and the close gadget is in the correct corner of the windows... Also my disks/USB drives appear on the desktop when I plug them in and finally, windows don't autorise to the top when I just want to drag them around...
Put simply, it has the Amiga like behaviours I like ;) x
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Good Stuff!
A spread spectrum of opinions and personal choices.
Kind of what could be expected.
Myself?
When I stopped using software the required real horsepower (for video editing), I simplified and got rid of most of the modern stuff.
I kept a netbook and a laptop for convenient Windows use (and because its an easier platform to rip movies in).
I use my MorphOS stuff (primarily my Powerbook now) for web browsing and e-mail. .
And I'm beginning to find a smartphone an essential part of my gear.
Tried tablets and other larger carry abouts, but they weren't convenient.
So PC are not obsolete, but we're all using other stuff as well?
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I actually like the taskbar. It's logical and convenient. Osx dockbar to me is irrelevant.
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I prefer Mac OSX; it has no stupid task bar, it has a menu bar at the top of the screen where I expect it and the close gadget is in the correct corner of the windows... Also my disks/USB drives appear on the desktop when I plug them in and finally, windows don't autorise to the top when I just want to drag them around...
Put simply, it has the Amiga like behaviours I like ;) x
I personally hate all the things you mentioned. I also hate the way all Mac windows look the same and the fact they dont 'stick' to the edges means your screen looks like a mess most of the time. same goes for the desktop. I work for a big publishing company so I know what Im talking about. Im really glad they gave me a pc.
Dont get me wrong there is lots of stuff I dont like about Windows, but at least you can get it to look real tidy and its very stable, too. Much more stable than a Mac or Amiga, tbh.
Personally I also cant understand why people think desktop computers are going to disappear. Sure, for some 'light' users I understand the move to a tablet or notebook. But people that need to do productivity stuff, the occasional game or in general do more than just a Facebook update now and then are much better off with a proper keyboard, mouse, and big / dual screen.
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I personally hate all the things you mentioned.
Really? I was just listing the Amiga like behaviour that one finds in MacOS X and not in Windows... Was AmigaOS really such a pain for you? :(
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To be honest, back in the days it was an amazing OS. But times have changed and it is no longer as flawless or modern. Ofcourse you are entitled to prefer MacOS over Windows. As much as I am entitled to disagree :) Sure enough, some things in MacOS sure do resemble AmigaOS, (the same can be said for Windows and every other operating system) but that doesnt make it the better OS.
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I find so little difference between the two that the argument seems pointless.
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Personally I also cant understand why people think desktop computers are going to disappear. Sure, for some 'light' users I understand the move to a tablet or notebook. But people that need to do productivity stuff, the occasional game or in general do more than just a Facebook update now and then are much better off with a proper keyboard, mouse, and big / dual screen.
You answered your own question buddy. The "But people that need to do..." bit says it all. Most people are light users and just don't need to do more than an FB update or collect email. They play games on console/ pad/ phone and they communicate via phone/ pad/ console too....
..yup, love it or hate it, you can't deny it.
As for me, my phone is a Sony 610i, it's ancient. It plays MP3's fine with it's 2GB card and does SMS etc..
That's about all I need from a phone to be honest.
My netbook gets used for a bit of video playback on the move as well as some word proccessing.
Games... ..I play them on console at home (Wii, PS3, CD32 etc.) ...and yes, on PC too.
I don't own a pad yet but I would very much like one. One with a good digital paint app and a long battery life as it would be for digital art and ebooks mostly.
As for the question of doing without my main PC, no chance! It does seem to be shrinking into a quieter more solid state beastie as time goes on however. I remember the times when I needed huge cases for all my drives and cards. Now I think of NAS and USB instead.
As for Amiga, I do Amiga stuff for fun, don't we all?
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In your daily life, what things do you do, that you could do with the aid of a so called "modern PC", that you do with something else?
A legacy system, NG system, your cell phone etc.
I think right now, people who only consume content (i.e. play games, watch video, listen to music, talk/converse with others) can totally fulfill their needs with an iPad, smart phone, gaming sytem or other non-desktop PC device.
For those who need to create content (i.e. do video editing, programming, electronics interfacing, AUTOCAD design, multitrack music, 3d rendering, graphics work) the desktop PC is still very relevant. This is because the desktop PC still offers the most CPU power for the buck and also is highly configurable (i.e. with a musician you might need to have several pro-level sound cards installed for multiple-ins and outs plus a MIDI interface).
This will probably change as things like iPads become closer and closer to being just as powerful to desktop computers.
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I have a mixed bag when it comes to the whole "modern pc" thing. I have Windows for playing games on and Mint for doing all my day to day work orientated stuff. I then carry an iPad for playing random crap on when I am on my break or want to brows somethign on the internet.
However I do use my 600 on a daily basis for playing games on. I am also learning AMOS and doing stuff with Backbone.
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I will answer very quickly: people who buy a tablet already have a PC. Stop dot.
Those devices are complementary but, in the fields where they are interchangeable, tablets allow to do the same while moving.
That's exactly why the netbook market has died: people who bought a netbook, already had a PC. And that's why the notebooks are struggling too, reinventing themselves as lighter, more powerful and cool ultrabooks: people who bought a notebook because they already had a PC, moved to tablets, but people who still need a laptop because they can't do without, now buy a cheap $499 one or a more glamorous ultrabook.
PCs will never really die: there will always be the need for them, after all.
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I will answer very quickly: people who buy a tablet already have a PC. Stop dot.
Those devices are complementary but, in the fields where they are interchangeable, tablets allow to do the same while moving.
That's exactly why the netbook market has died: people who bought a netbook, already had a PC. And that's why the notebooks are struggling too, reinventing themselves as lighter, more powerful and cool ultrabooks: people who bought a notebook because they already had a PC, moved to tablets, but people who still need a laptop because they can't do without, now buy a cheap $499 one or a more glamorous ultrabook.
PCs will never really die: there will always be the need for them, after all.
There are two groups of people that will insure desktops will remain viable market segment, gamers and business. Business like desktops because management doesn't get a late evening call from employees stating they left their desktop in a bar or someone one a bus stole their desktop or they left their desktop in a cab. Gamers will have desktops because there is just so much you can squeeze out of console systems vs the latest and greatest GPUs demanding games that have associated bragging rights on how many FPS they are getting out of their beast system.
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You answered your own question buddy. The "But people that need to do..." bit says it all. Most people are light users and just don't need to do more than an FB update or collect email. They play games on console/ pad/ phone and they communicate via phone/ pad/ console too....
..yup, love it or hate it, you can't deny it.
What's sad about it is that in the glory days of personal computing, instead of computers dropping capability to fit with lowest-common-denominator use patterns, as tablets do, you had people who would ordinarily have been "light users" branching out into new areas that they might otherwise never have tried, because hey, the capability was there. Now everybody just settles for mediocre...
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What's sad about it is that in the glory days of personal computing, instead of computers dropping capability to fit with lowest-common-denominator use patterns, as tablets do, you had people who would ordinarily have been "light users" branching out into new areas that they might otherwise never have tried, because hey, the capability was there. Now everybody just settles for mediocre...
In general, that feature probably limited access. Most people just want computer functionality without any computer-y issues (think your hatred of configuring linux) these days. Press button - get Facebook, or Charlie the Unicorn. But that sort of mediocre approach has opened the floodgates to people who would have never touched a computing device otherwise. The tablet is truly the "computer for the masses".
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Look at it this way, back in the '80s only a small section of the population had desktops, those that had them needed them. The the revolution came and desktops became ubiquitous, but the vast majority of people didn't really need a computer, so as the tablet revolution came those people began switching to tablets and the desktop is returning to just those that need a desktop.
Personally I have all three formats (a Mac Pro desktop, an iPhone 5 and a bunch of tablets, including an iPad Mini).
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There are two groups of people that will insure desktops will remain viable market segment, gamers and business.
And what about the hobbyist? I for one want a desktop, and certainly not a tablet.
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In general, that feature probably limited access. Most people just want computer functionality without any computer-y issues (think your hatred of configuring linux) these days. Press button - get Facebook, or Charlie the Unicorn.
That's a load of crap. People didn't "just want" those things, because they didn't even exist until a few years ago. They wanted to avoid technical nitty-gritty, sure, but the Mac let them do that - but now Apple's the one leading the push towards the new "bovine content consumption" paradigm. Back in the day, even ordinary users were exploring the creative potential of the PC - then somewhere along the way some people started telling them that what they really wanted was to do nothing but consume content on company-controlled services and use company-controlled communications channels to conduct exchanges that the existing uncontrolled channels were entirely sufficient for. And, for some reason, they decided that those people must know what they were talking about and they'd better start accustoming themselves to this new model and give up everything they were learning how to do...
Time was that the personal computer was supposed be the thing that freed the minds of the ordinary people - now it's becoming the thing that cages them in.
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"now it's becoming the thing that cages them in."
I disagree. If you need to create digital content, you want a desktop. It enables you to create digital art, music, video, 3d, and more...
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I disagree. If you need to create digital content, you want a desktop. It enables you to create digital art, music, video, 3d, and more...
It does, still, at present. What worries me is the push (and it is a push) towards making the "unthinking consumer of content" model the norm on desktops as well as tablets. Somebody in the industry wants this to happen, and a disturbing number of people seem to be pretty much willing to go along with it. They started by clipping the wings of the people who were, hitherto, just branching out into new areas, and now they're trying to push this on everyone...
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That's a load of crap. People didn't "just want" those things, because they didn't even exist until a few years ago. They wanted to avoid technical nitty-gritty, sure, but the Mac let them do that - but now Apple's the one leading the push towards the new "bovine content consumption" paradigm. Back in the day, even ordinary users were exploring the creative potential of the PC - then somewhere along the way some people started telling them that what they really wanted was to do nothing but consume content on company-controlled services and use company-controlled communications channels to conduct exchanges that the existing uncontrolled channels were entirely sufficient for. And, for some reason, they decided that those people must know what they were talking about and they'd better start accustoming themselves to this new model and give up everything they were learning how to do...
Time was that the personal computer was supposed be the thing that freed the minds of the ordinary people - now it's becoming the thing that cages them in.
Your optimism for the creative potential of humanity is refreshing, but I think a little too overarching. Look at television, or radio, or video games, or even books. Mass market and profit = lowest common denominator. The people who want to create still can, and joe six-pack can twitter about his huge BM. There's room in there for everyone in their hierarchy.
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ou can't compare computer users of the '80s with users of today. Back in the '80s computer users were a self selected minority, maybe 10% of the population of Australia or the US. Out of those a minority, maybe 10% of those, were doing creative things, but even if you say half of them that's still only 5% of the total populace. Creative use of computers was never the norm and never will be the norm.
Add to that the fact that you can do creative video, pictures and music on a mobile phone or tablet. Creativity is an innate ability, I've seen gorgeous photos taken and edited only on an iPhone and I've seen absolute cr@p photos taken with a USD 1000 DSLR and photoshopped. There are professional photographers out there who only use an iPhone. The tool is less important than the person wielding the tool.
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Your optimism for the creative potential of humanity is refreshing, but I think a little too overarching. Look at television, or radio, or video games, or even books. Mass market and profit = lowest common denominator. The people who want to create still can, and joe six-pack can twitter about his huge BM. There's room in there for everyone in their hierarchy.
See, frankly, I just don't accept this classist bullcrap. A lot of people in the tech world like to think of themselves as some sort of higher order apart from the Masses, as if the ability to think and work in a creative capacity is a difference in kind between themselves and the "Joe Sixpack" cattle. It's not. It's a fundamental human capacity, and the only reason it's languishing in a lot of the masses is because it hasn't been given any encouragement to grow, thanks to an increasingly consumption-oriented economy that only needs creators as a source for content (and they replace creative individuals with formula processes at every opportunity, because formula processes are much more predictable and they've been steadily training the masses not to know the difference, anyway.)
The idea that "Joe Sixpack" is fundamentally lacking in a capacity that the creative elite possess, and therefore he can't make use of complex creative facilities, shouldn't be encouraged to try or given the tools to do so because his simple peasant brain wouldn't understand them, and wouldn't be happy doing any of that anyway, is false. Completely false. It is a lie; it started as a lie that creative people told themselves to make themselves feel special, and it's a lie that's been increasingly propagated by companies and organizations that like to use it as a rationalization for stifling the nascent creative urges of the masses to make them into good little consumers.
Is it harder and riskier to make good movies than crap movies? Well, train moviegoers to not expect good movies, and that's not a problem anymore! Want to cripple a computer into a glorified content-consumption device? Just tell people that that's all they ever wanted anyway, over and over, until they start believing it! And all the tech journalists and all the futurist writers will gladly help you spread this lie, because it feeds their ego.
But you know what? Repetition can make a lie seem true; it can never make it true. People still have the capability to be more than passive consumers, even if it's never been given any nurture; they still have creative urges, even if they're deeply sublimated. All the mantra repetition of "ordinary users don't want or need this" in the world will not change that. The question isn't whether these people can be more than the lowest common denominator; the question is whether anybody will come along and help them wake up from dead-eyed consumer slumber.
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And what about the hobbyist? I for one want a desktop, and certainly not a tablet.
I don't think there really are that many "hobbyist" out there that would be significant enough sales to keep desktop sales in the 1/3 of total market, which is the going rate that the business and gamers are currently purchasing desktops. Back in the 1980s and maybe 1990s, sure. Today, computer is simply a tool and while you do have OCers out there via for titles of who can out OC whom, it's not enough to maintain the current desktop sales rates. Even more so that most folk's phones are more powerful then what desktops were ten or so years ago. Now you may have a hardware hacker here and there that needs direct access to the desktop mobo for whatever reason, but it's not a significant number that would affect desktop sales. Even more so when you have such fast data links for external hardware to talk to a given computer, be it desktop or smartphone.
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You can't compare computer users of the '80s with users of today. Back in the '80s computer users were a self selected minority, maybe 10% of the population of Australia or the US. Out of those a minority, maybe 10% of those, were doing creative things, but even if you say half of them that's still only 5% of the total populace. Creative use of computers was never the norm and never will be the norm.
I'm not talking about the '80s; I'm talking about the mid-'90s, when the Internet was exploding, computers were more accessible than ever, and even ordinary people were getting in on this. I watched it happen; I watched my parents, who have never been technical people, take up playing around with MIDI sequencing and other such stuff on our old Mac. I saw people I knew dabble with programming at the same time I was. And I was the only techie I knew anywhere except on the Internet. People were branching out and trying new things, and the software to do it was becoming increasingly varied and more available. This continued for quite a while; it wasn't until the not-at-all-coincidental rise of "social networking" in the mid-2000s that it began to collapse.
Add to that the fact that you can do creative video, pictures and music on a mobile phone or tablet. Creativity is an innate ability, I've seen gorgeous photos taken and edited only on an iPhone and I've seen absolute cr@p photos taken with a USD 1000 DSLR and photoshopped. There are professional photographers out there who only use an iPhone. The tool is less important than the person wielding the tool.
You can, yes, but it's not designed for it (as tablet advocates will loudly proclaim any time you criticize the tablet's poor suitability for productivity applications.) It's entirely true that you can create in an environment that's unconducive or openly hostile to creation. Political prisoners have written on prison walls using their own feces; that doesn't make poop a good medium to work in.
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See, frankly, I just don't accept this classist bullcrap. A lot of people in the tech world like to think of themselves as some sort of higher order apart from the Masses, as if the ability to think and work in a creative capacity is a difference in kind between themselves and the "Joe Sixpack" cattle. It's not. It's a fundamental human capacity, and the only reason it's languishing in a lot of the masses is because it hasn't been given any encouragement to grow, thanks to an increasingly consumption-oriented economy that only needs creators as a source for content (and they replace creative individuals with formula processes at every opportunity, because formula processes are much more predictable and they've been steadily training the masses not to know the difference, anyway.)
The idea that "Joe Sixpack" is fundamentally lacking in a capacity that the creative elite possess, and therefore he can't make use of complex creative facilities, shouldn't be encouraged to try or given the tools to do so because his simple peasant brain wouldn't understand them, and wouldn't be happy doing any of that anyway, is false. Completely false. It is a lie; it started as a lie that creative people told themselves to make themselves feel special, and it's a lie that's been increasingly propagated by companies and organizations that like to use it as a rationalization for stifling the nascent creative urges of the masses to make them into good little consumers.
Is it harder and riskier to make good movies than crap movies? Well, train moviegoers to not expect good movies, and that's not a problem anymore! Want to cripple a computer into a glorified content-consumption device? Just tell people that that's all they ever wanted anyway, over and over, until they start believing it! And all the tech journalists and all the futurist writers will gladly help you spread this lie, because it feeds their ego.
But you know what? Repetition can make a lie seem true; it can never make it true. People still have the capability to be more than passive consumers, even if it's never been given any nurture; they still have creative urges, even if they're deeply sublimated. All the mantra repetition of "ordinary users don't want or need this" in the world will not change that. The question isn't whether these people can be more than the lowest common denominator; the question is whether anybody will come along and help them wake up from dead-eyed consumer slumber.
I think people would say the market decides these things. Take the classist line out, and what you get is that sales of tablets and smartphones are spiking while desktops are flatlining or declining somewhat. Its not just opinion its fact.
What it sounds like you are saying is that there is some sort of conspiracy to dumb down the creative people with modern software and tablets. I disagree. I think it comes down to simple marketing and focus groups and what is actually selling on the ground. If I didn't like graphically intense games and didn't code for a living, a smartphone is all I really need for modern internet usage. This doesn't discount or render invalid my ability to enjoy amigas or the linux command line. Heck, with my droid I can even write apps using this:
http://androidandme.com/2012/03/applications/mit-launches-android-app-inventor-to-all-with-a-google-account/
Its awesome, and visual, and accessible. In fact, I believe the bar for accessibility to be creative is far lower than it ever has been. I love hand coding python with vim and running my progs from the command line, but I also love having IDEs that makes sharing and collaboration so easy, as well as on the fly compiling and error checking.
My Galaxy S3 is damn near a tricorder! Portables are freaking awesome!
Last edit, and it sucks but is true: Some people are honestly stupid. Some people are smart. It is what it is.
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I think people would say the market decides these things. Take the classist line out, and what you get is that sales of tablets and smartphones are spiking while desktops are flatlining or declining somewhat. Its not just opinion its fact.
What it sounds like you are saying is that there is some sort of conspiracy to dumb down the creative people with modern software and tablets. I disagree. I think it comes down to simple marketing and focus groups and what is actually selling on the ground.
Saying that "the market decides this stuff" is like saying that plate tectonics decides when and where there will be earthquakes. It's true, in a strictly observational sense, but it says nothing whatsoever about whether or not that's a good thing. And anyway, it's overlooking the fact that market forces are not the only factor in what sells. If the industry hadn't spent the last couple years in a mad push for tablets, and spent billions on marketing to tell people that tablets are the New Hotness that they really really need to have, tablets wouldn't be selling like they are. It's not just some passive reaction; the industry wants this to happen. Tablets are cheap to make but sell for a bundle, are inherently disposable because they can't be upgraded, and the app-store model brings in a steady post-purchase revenue stream; of course the industry likes that. Of course they're going to push for it.
Last edit, and it sucks but is true: Some people are honestly stupid. Some people are smart. It is what it is.
The more I observe people, the less I buy that - at least not in the sense that you're meaning here. Plenty of people are mentally lazy and/or have not had their faculties nurtured (*cough*crapeducationsystem*cough*) and of course any given person doesn't necessarily have the same aptitude for X as the next guy might, but I've never met a person who was inherently stupid, and certainly not someone who was inherently geared towards being the kind of brainless Facebook cattle that tablet advocates seem to think average users are. Hell, I know mentally handicapped people (and we're talking serious developmental handicaps, not Rain Man socially-awkward savantism) who show more spark and creative inclination than you're ascribing to the healthy, un-handicapped common man.
"Some people are just naturally better than other people" is a nice thing for people to tell themselves when they want to feel special. It's a philosophy that lets technologists and futurists feel Very Benevolent when they push for platforms that will let the poor witless Normals have a taste of what it's like to be Enlightened without taxing their poor little brains. But it's something that I just don't see borne out in real life.
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Saying that "the market decides this stuff" is like saying that plate tectonics decides when and where there will be earthquakes. It's true, in a strictly observational sense, but it says nothing whatsoever about whether or not that's a good thing. And anyway, it's overlooking the fact that market forces are not the only factor in what sells. If the industry hadn't spent the last couple years in a mad push for tablets, and spent billions on marketing to tell people that tablets are the New Hotness that they really really need to have, tablets wouldn't be selling like they are. It's not just some passive reaction; the industry wants this to happen. Tablets are cheap to make but sell for a bundle, are inherently disposable because they can't be upgraded, and the app-store model brings in a steady post-purchase revenue stream; of course the industry likes that. Of course they're going to push for it.
I think your desire to see this discrepancy colors your analysis of it. There is no "Them". If there was no inherent value in a 300 dollar tablet or smartphone, there are a gazillion alternatives, to include NOT BUYING ONE. You vote with your dollar/yuan/euro. No one puts a gun to your head to buy.
The more I observe people, the less I buy that - at least not in the sense that you're meaning here. Plenty of people are mentally lazy and/or have not had their faculties nurtured (*cough*crapeducationsystem*cough*) and of course any given person doesn't necessarily have the same aptitude for X as the next guy might, but I've never met a person who was inherently stupid, and certainly not someone who was inherently geared towards being the kind of brainless Facebook cattle that tablet advocates seem to think average users are. Hell, I know mentally handicapped people (and we're talking serious developmental handicaps, not Rain Man socially-awkward savantism) who show more spark and creative inclination than you're ascribing to the healthy, un-handicapped common man.
"Some people are just naturally better than other people" is a nice thing for people to tell themselves when they want to feel special. It's a philosophy that lets technologists and futurists feel Very Benevolent when they push for platforms that will let the poor witless Normals have a taste of what it's like to be Enlightened without taxing their poor little brains. But it's something that I just don't see borne out in real life.
The sense I am meaning is exactly what I said. Some people are stupid and slow and retarded and unable of abstract thought. Some people aren't. Not everyone is Picasso or even have the capacity to be if only we could reach them somehow, and to suggest otherwise is sweet, but untrue. It isn't philosophy, its straight up biology, medicine, and genetics. Spend some time in the Army and your youthful naivete concerning the goodness of all will be permanently fixed. I have met plenty of people who were inherently stupid. At some stage of your life you will as well. I have met people who are mental giants. Equality is a cute philosophy. The mistake is equating being in the middle or tail end of the bell curve with societal worth. I am not suggesting that, but that your argument is actually the one bordering on elitist by suggesting that the tablet apps are for morons, where I see the explosion of those devices as well thought out design and not some illuminati conspiracy.
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ou can't compare computer users of the '80s with users of today. Back in the '80s computer users were a self selected minority, maybe 10% of the population of Australia or the US. Out of those a minority, maybe 10% of those, were doing creative things, but even if you say half of them that's still only 5% of the total populace. Creative use of computers was never the norm and never will be the norm.
I have to agree... back in the 80's and for some of us, the 70's, owning a home computer was an end in itself. The ability to do something useful was unimportant or an excuse to justify it to the significant other. ;-)
As for the original question.... if you discount things that have microprocessors in them... cars,microwaves,tvs... well just about anything electronic now... the only things I use outside of the desktop are an MP3 player and Kobo ebook. But I still need the desktop to manage those. My TV is also in my desktop pc, so i guess that makes my VCR on it as well. And then there's digital cameras... unless you plan to keep a whole pile of flash cards around, some time you need a desktop machine to store your pictures long term. I suppose someone could build some kind of stand alone or networked device for that, but it's handy to have them on a desktop for editing.
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I have to agree... back in the 80's and for some of us, the 70's, owning a home computer was an end in itself. The ability to do something useful was unimportant or an excuse to justify it to the significant other. ;-)
As for the original question.... if you discount things that have microprocessors in them... cars,microwaves,tvs... well just about anything electronic now... the only things I use outside of the desktop are an MP3 player and Kobo ebook. But I still need the desktop to manage those. My TV is also in my desktop pc, so i guess that makes my VCR on it as well.
Oh, man! I totally forgot about my kindle. That thing is awesome.
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I use my PC for pretty much everything that involves data.
The only exceptions are phone calls and text messages.
I don't have or need a smartphone, a tablet, or a television.
Sure, I could use a collection of gadgets and CE devices to accomplish most of what my PC does, but why replace one all-powerful box with several that, combined, can only do a fraction of the work?
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that doesn't make poop a good medium to work in.
Dooh! Not? Well, I'll go to a stationary store tomorrow and buy a pencil then...
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You vote with your dollar/yuan/euro. No one puts a gun to your head to buy.
No, but they do everything they damn well can to talk you into buying.
Some people are stupid and slow and retarded and unable of abstract thought.
Provided we're not talking about actual mental handicaps, I'm going to have to say that's bullshít. People can be less apt at something than most, don't get me wrong, and they can certainly never have developed their ability for something, but they are not inherently cattle.
Not everyone is Picasso or even have the capacity to be if only we could reach them somehow, and to suggest otherwise is sweet, but untrue.
Don't mistake me: I'm not saying that natural talent doesn't exist and everybody is capable of being as good as everybody else at everything. All I'm saying is that this idea that the masses are just inherently incapable of complex thought or even the fundamental human creative urge is a crock.
Spend some time in the Army and your youthful naivete concerning the goodness of all will be permanently fixed.
Goodness? Who said anything about goodness? I was talking about creative drive, not morality.
The mistake is equating being in the middle or tail end of the bell curve with societal worth.
I'm glad to hear that that's not where you're coming from; certainly it isn't what I was implying. But all the same, there's an awfully uncomfortable egoist bent to a lot of these arguments; and even when they're made in sincere benevolence, they're still predicated on the false assumption that "the masses" are lacking in the fundamental capacity to be more than the lowest common denominator, or even to want to.
but that your argument is actually the one bordering on elitist by suggesting that the tablet apps are for morons
Well what am I supposed to think? Everything I'm told by tablet advocates says that "it's not meant for productivity, it's meant for passively consuming content!" and "it's dumbed down because normal people just can't understand computers!" and "the most important thing is to protect users from themselves!" Is it or isn't it designed on the assumption that users are stupid?
not some illuminati conspiracy.
Don't get me wrong: I don't think that Dr. Claw is sitting in a darkened room somewhere and stroking his cat as he plans the destruction of general-purpose computing. I do, however, see this as the industry quite transparently pushing models that put overall financial gain ahead of a healthy mutually-beneficial relationship with customers, and then justifying it by telling them, via billions of dollars' worth of marketing, that they probably don't really need or want what's being taken away, and wouldn't they rather just sit around on sites where their communications are dredged for advertising potential like good little consumers? Honestly I'd prefer a Legion of Doom behind this, because then people might be less unwisely trusting and unquestioning of the motives behind this.
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Most people who buy cars don't work on them, don't modify them, don't do anything with them except drive them. It's a utilitarian relationship. Same with tablets. Technology ever advances.
Also the App store Apple created has inspired a whole generation of programmers.
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Most people who buy cars don't work on them, don't modify them, don't do anything with them except drive them. It's a utilitarian relationship. Same with tablets. Technology ever advances.
We're not just talking about programming, though.
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[youtube]l-d-rRkV4fo[/youtube]
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Is this a thread championing things like the low power SAM boards? Or older Macs and MOS? Or just some thread about how tablets and smartphones will replace a powerful multi-gigahertz i7 PC/Mac?
Well firstly all those little games on iOS or Android devices are pretty crap, if I want to play a game it will be of the minimum quality achievable via 360 or PS3 for a start if not better via a top end gaming PC. I have no interest in all this flash game rubbish shoved in front of me as some sort of replacement for things like even Battlefield 2 from 2005 *puke* If I want to play simple games there are 100,000 FREE games to play on emulators, and these games written in the 80s and 90s on various Commodore branded machines are better than crap like Angry Birds FACT.
So you can watch HD video on an iPad....so what? It's like saying you can get a BMW 1 series with the super powerful M engine and specification. Just because it is possible doesn't mean it's not full of FAIL. If I want to watch HD it will be via a 17" laptop screen/TV/projector via the PC. The bitrate for HD movies on these new devices is atrocious....only a hobo would think it looked OK on a 42" TV even when you can connect these devices in such a way.
Downloading....do I want to download the entire CD32 TOSEC via some ass raping contract on a crappy 3G connection OR dump it all straight onto a 5TB drive on a PC connected to a 120mb broadband connection hmmm. Also if you have ever tried to download a torrent with 1000s of files onto SD media you will know how full of fail this is too.
Anything creative, editing photos or even making a simple 2002 flavour website is not possible on such devices. And the tools are not available anyway even if you did want to code up a website on a tablet.
Whilst you can certainly use an iPhone/Android device to bid on a Ferrari on ebay using the net on such small devices is awkward clumsy and hamfisted thing again only idiots would argue is as good as using even a basic 1280x720 14" laptop. Convenient on the go sure, use it exclusively on such devices? Erm no.
The list goes on, it will be a long time before Microsoft suffer huge drops in sales due to tablets/phones making PCs obsolete. We had all this crap before when everyone was saying netbooks are the second coming, maybe a few idiots came in their pants over them but the reality was netbooks were barely useable hunks of s.hit to be honest. What's the screen size on the latest Macbook slimline model...oh yes exactly the same as slim and light laptops from last decade like the Toshiba Portege models with their 1.8" IDE drives.
So yes if I want to play oldskool games I have a C64 and Amiga (and 20 other machine formats) to play them on, if I want to watch videos I do it on a 150" screen powered by a laptop to feed it A/V data and if I want to make a phone call I have something called a phone. I could have played Doom on my phone in 2003....but why would I want to do that? If I was that desperate to play Doom on the train I would have purchased a Libretto 120CT 6" laptop the size of a Nintendo DS Lite :)
Obviously though there are plenty of fashionistas buying these things and conning themselves into believing this is the second coming, as radical and life changing as the Atari 2600 or Commodore 64. Whatever....marketing dept wet dream is all this stuff is.
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If I could edit video as powerfully and quickly as I can on my iMac, and do the type of multitrack simultaneous audio editing as powerfully and quickly as I do on my iMac, also if I could Skype call and listen to spotify music and so many other things I take for granted on my iMac, and do them all without compromise on AmigaOS4.1 or MorphOS machine, then I would make that my daily use machine and not my iMac, but sadly this is not the case.
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I use my Amiga for the retro feeling! Like some people use their 50-60th old chevy instead of brand new BMW´s.
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Also the App store Apple created has inspired a whole generation of programmers.
I'm not sure it has inspired them to do anything good.
The app store is full of 'me too' crap and monetizing schemes.
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There's a whole series of computing devices - Mobile Phone, Tablet, Laptop Desktop, that consumers can choose from. I have all four but for many one or two will do....
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I have all four but for many one or two will do....
Indeed! For me one is fine: Desktop :D
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Indeed! For me one is fine: Desktop :D
Not so easy to use on the toilet though is it....
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eeek! I'm not coming to your house!
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Not so easy to use on the toilet though is it....
It's all a matter of having the right bathroom furniture.
Also, remind me never to touch your mobile devices.
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Not so easy to use on the toilet though is it....
I read old computer magazines on the toilet :D
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Thorham, I can build you this, so you can use your desktop on the go!
If you buy now it cost you only 999.99$! If you call now I also give you a free color radio! ;)
(PS: Battery not included)
(http://www.underground-gamer.com/imagebucket/ultraportable.jpeg)
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:)
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Thanks som99, but my PC is already mobile (using it at work here):
(http://s9.postimage.org/3jt0l07vz/image.jpg)
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Picture unavailable :( repost please :)
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Picture unavailable :( repost please :)
Image reposted :)
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(http://www.jabulela.com/files/media/toilet-computer-symptoms-dependence.jpg)
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(http://cf.chucklesnetwork.agj.co/items/4/2/8/3/9/sitting-on-toilet-forgot-to-bring-tablet-computer.jpg)
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Image reposted :)
Hahaha nice one :) then I understand why you didn't want mine ;)
(http://www.jabulela.com/files/media/toilet-computer-symptoms-dependence.jpg)
Hah looks like someone really use that setup :)
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I read old computer magazines on the toilet :D
Enjoying two activities at the same time, I can verify the pleasure ;)
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The implication of this thread is you can't do creative or even useful work on a Tablet or phone.
This is complete nonsense.
Not only can you use a phone for art I know people who have published books and got prestigious awards for exclusively using an iPhone.
Ever seen the audio apps available on the iPad? There's some seriously impressive synths available Wavegenerator, iMS20, Animoog and more.
There's even a big multi-channel recording app - a DAW on a iPad.
Granted the first iPads or Android tablets weren't very powerful but the latest ones are now at G5 performance level. Next year they'll be even faster.
Games are also getting good. They surprisingly close to console level even on current phones.
The need for any type of desktop is rapidly dying out. Computers have long since becomes fast enough for the vast majority of needs.
There will always be a need for faster machines but they're uses are limited. I have a high end laptop because I do high megapixel imaging, video and record music. That said maxing out the machine is actually quite difficult, most of these apps are bound by the speed of the disc drive (even the fast SSD it has isn't fast enough).
Note I say it's a laptop - I haven't used a desktop as a main machine at home for 10 years now.
PC sales have recently fallen. Tablets and phones are selling like hot cakes and are already hitting the PC market, unlike the PC market they are growing rapidly. A new release of Windows is always a big earner for PC vendors, not this time though, Windows 8 doesn't seem to have much of an impact.
There is a bit of irony about discussing this on an Amiga site though. Amiga's were never about raw CPU speed, they were about the clever use of hardware to do the heavy lifting - exactly what phones and tablets do.
In any case OS4 or MorphOS have never run on high-end hardware. If speed was important everyone would have switched to AROS years ago.
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Yeah, speed has very little to do with it, but a proper workstation offers I/O connections and a technical openness that current tablets just can't match.
I'm sure some day there will be tablets or tablet accessories that will make desktops entirely obsolete, but at the end of the day, it'll just be another form factor, rather than a different class of device.
I could see having a docking station that connects to external monitors, a proper keyboard and mouse, or any sort of standard peripheral, as well as an OS that's open enough to do any sort of general purpose computing, but the big sellers today are nothing like that.
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Keyboards and printers aren't wired devices anymore. My iPad plays through my Apple TV connection without wires, and mice, well, they're sort of old school, but if you want a bluetooth mouse they are available.
I fail to see this fascination with wires.
Yeah, speed has very little to do with it, but a proper workstation offers I/O connections and a technical openness that current tablets just can't match.
I'm sure some day there will be tablets or tablet accessories that will make desktops entirely obsolete, but at the end of the day, it'll just be another form factor, rather than a different class of device.
I could see having a docking station that connects to external monitors, a proper keyboard and mouse, or any sort of standard peripheral, as well as an OS that's open enough to do any sort of general purpose computing, but the big sellers today are nothing like that.
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/01/05/cables.article.jpg)
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I fail to see this fascination with wires.
My Steelseries mouse and mechanical keyboard have wires, and that's fine with me.
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The implication of this thread is you can't do creative or even useful work on a Tablet or phone.
This is complete nonsense.
Games are also getting good. They surprisingly close to console level even on current phones.
PC sales have recently fallen. Tablets and phones are selling like hot cakes and are already hitting the PC market, unlike the PC market they are growing rapidly. A new release of Windows is always a big earner for PC vendors, not this time though, Windows 8 doesn't seem to have much of an impact.
Yes tablet games are getting very good, almost up to current gen console quality now.
I downloaded Rayman (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWeviUXIRjY) for my Nexus 7 last night and was very impressed with the graphics and game play.
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The implication of this thread is you can't do creative or even useful work on a Tablet or phone.
This is complete nonsense.
Not only can you use a phone for art I know people who have published books and got prestigious awards for exclusively using an iPhone.
Ever seen the audio apps available on the iPad? There's some seriously impressive synths available Wavegenerator, iMS20, Animoog and more.
There's even a big multi-channel recording app - a DAW on a iPad.
Granted the first iPads or Android tablets weren't very powerful but the latest ones are now at G5 performance level. Next year they'll be even faster.
Games are also getting good. They surprisingly close to console level even on current phones.
The need for any type of desktop is rapidly dying out. Computers have long since becomes fast enough for the vast majority of needs.
There will always be a need for faster machines but they're uses are limited. I have a high end laptop because I do high megapixel imaging, video and record music. That said maxing out the machine is actually quite difficult, most of these apps are bound by the speed of the disc drive (even the fast SSD it has isn't fast enough).
Note I say it's a laptop - I haven't used a desktop as a main machine at home for 10 years now.
PC sales have recently fallen. Tablets and phones are selling like hot cakes and are already hitting the PC market, unlike the PC market they are growing rapidly. A new release of Windows is always a big earner for PC vendors, not this time though, Windows 8 doesn't seem to have much of an impact.
There is a bit of irony about discussing this on an Amiga site though. Amiga's were never about raw CPU speed, they were about the clever use of hardware to do the heavy lifting - exactly what phones and tablets do.
In any case OS4 or MorphOS have never run on high-end hardware. If speed was important everyone would have switched to AROS years ago.
[youtube]nRB8Jor8tPs[/youtube]
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Not only can you use a phone for art I know people who have published books and got prestigious awards for exclusively using an iPhone.
They got awards for using an iPhone? That's just sad. What kind of trend-junkie Wired-reading my-farts-smell-trendier-than-yours ninnies give out an award for that?
Again, it's not that you can't do work on a tablet - it's just that, as tablet advocates like to repeat any time you criticize tablets, "they're not designed to be useful for work!" (They seem to think this is a selling point.) You can do it, sure. You can also do ice sculpture with your fingernails; that doesn't mean it's any kind of ideal solution.
Ever seen the audio apps available on the iPad? There's some seriously impressive synths available Wavegenerator, iMS20, Animoog and more.
There's even a big multi-channel recording app - a DAW on a iPad.
Yes, there's audio apps available on the iPhone. There's also several orders of magnitude more audio apps available on the PC. Even the free VSTs outweigh iOS virtual instruments by a huge margin. Get back to me when you can do this (http://archive.org/details/RemnantOfTheUniversalVeil) on an iPad, and then I'll be impressed.
There is a bit of irony about discussing this on an Amiga site though. Amiga's were never about raw CPU speed, they were about the clever use of hardware to do the heavy lifting - exactly what phones and tablets do.
That's quite a bit of a stretch. Tablets use one of a handful of prefabbed CPU/GPU solutions; it's nothing like the Amiga, where the OS and the hardware were designed for each other.
I fail to see this fascination with wires.
Well, they're quite handy - they carry power for stuff, so you don't have to be changing batteries all the damn time! Quite nice.
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That's quite a bit of a stretch. Tablets use one of a handful of prefabbed CPU/GPU solutions; it's nothing like the Amiga, where the OS and the hardware were designed for each other.
To be fair to Apple, they do design their own silicon (their A series application processors) and operating system...
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Yeah, that's true - though do you know whether they did any design work on the non-CPU components, or are they just synthesizing a system out of other people's parts?
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Yeah, that's true - though do you know whether they did any design work on the non-CPU components, or are they just synthesizing a system out of other people's parts?
As far as is publicly known, Apple hand designed the CPU and integrated 4 PowerVR GPU cores on to a single chip connected via a custom designed bus...
I don't see that as much different to the Amiga, where the engineers hand designed the "GPU" and integrated it into a single system with a Motorola CPU :)
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I could see having a docking station that connects to external monitors, a proper keyboard and mouse, or any sort of standard peripheral, as well as an OS that's open enough to do any sort of general purpose computing, but the big sellers today are nothing like that.
My ~80 GBP 7" tablet has full HD HDMI out and support for USB keyboards and mice, as well as USB support for mass storage. Most low end Chinese tablets do... And most of the Allwinner A10 ones (the bulk of the low end Android tablet market) can run "full" Linux instead of Android and also tend to come already rooted and with unlocked bootloaders, taking care of the "open" part for the most part (only downside is lack of open source driver for the hardware acceleration on the Mali GPU).
The may not be the biggest sellers, but there are *dozens* of models of them, and they pretty much make up all of the low end of the tablet market.
It's certainly no speed daemon - about as fast as my 2 years old HTC Desire HD, other than for 3D where it knocks the pants of the HTC phone, but for that price it's pretty impressive. You can also get "Mini PC's" based on the same SoC that just does away with the screen / touch and are about as large as the Raspberry Pi - I plan on taping one to the back of my TV's.
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Tablets have pretty much wiped out netbooks, which to be frank, were cr@p devices anyway.
The main disadvantage to tablets is that you can't develop software on them, at least not yet. iOS will likely never allow that, but if you have a Mac you can develop your own software and download it to your tablet/phone without the Apple Store, but you can't distribute it to the world.
Now when Micro$oft comes out with it's intel Surface it would be possible to develop directly on it....
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Wow. Even without getting personal I can create a thread that keeps you guys making polarized contentious statements for days!
Cool!
BTW - I don't really like tablets.
Still using laptops and netbooks.
Moving over to the Coffee House for a few indirect jibs.
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Wow. Even without getting personal I can create a thread that keeps you guys making polarized contentious statements for days!
Cool!
BTW - I don't really like tablets.
Still using laptops and netbooks.
Moving over to the Coffee House for a few indirect jibs.
haha.. welcome to the forum age.. trolololo..
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haha.. welcome to the forum age.. trolololo..
Nah, I just think its something to do with Amigans.
They just really like to argue.
Even when there's no clear cut answer.
If they shared ancestors I'd say it was genetic.
If they lived near each other, something in the water.
Maybe legacy Amigas give off low level radiation or some kind of rfi that screws up the mental processes. ;)
Who knows.
But it remind me of what my wife said about why they don't use Akitas as sled dogs.
Get them all harnessed up, shout "mush", and they turn into a whirling ball chewing at one another without moving forward.
As Franko would have said, ta.
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@rvo_nl
xp more stable than mac os x? Since when?.
lol
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That statement would sound better if said by Faerytale...
@rvo_nl
xp more stable than mac os x? Since when?.
lol
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To be fair to Apple, they do design their own silicon (their A series application processors) and operating system...
And then make claims that they are so much more powerful than the competition. And then go all quiet when the competition asks them to prove it ;)