Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: anglosaxonusa on October 24, 2012, 10:59:45 PM
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I've been running Amiga through emulation for ages and would like to return to hardware. I'd like to build up a 3.X-ClassicWB machine capable of running Netsurf. Would an A1200 with the recently released ACA 1232 fit the bill? If not, would one of the workstation models be better for this scenario?
I'd like to run a 500 or 1200 wedge if at all possible, but I will use one of the workstation models if that's what it will take to get a decent browsing experience. I'm fond of the old A500 chassis, but I assume it would could not be made powerful enough for something like netsurf even with an accelerator.
I have not been able to get Netsurf working through emulation without enabling Picasso so I assume any hardware solution will need to support this. Is this something that an accelerator will take care of?
Cost isn't really an option; I can afford a powerful accelerator provided it can be found.
Thanks in advance.
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Web browsing on an 030 really isn't fun unless you just visit text pages. It's nice for using IRC and such but not browsing.
You need RTG to get any enjoyment, the only option that will go inside the wedge case is the Blizzard PPC & BVision cards, I'm selling a set over at Amibay:
http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?t=36240 :banana:
The BPPC was upgraded with the latest mask 060 and this card can run up to 72mhz* on 060 and runs at 330mhz for the PPC, with the PPC you can use WarpDT to load the images from PPC and this helps again to speed things up for the WWW.
Still wont beat a £50 PC though :laugh1:
*With the BVision Graphics Card attached you will be limited to 60-66mhz from the 060 side.
Even though I'm selling this I wouldn't recommend you buy for Internet usage, even this which is the highest spec you can fit inside a wedge case will leave you disappointed. You could run AWB on OS4.1 Classic with this kit, but even that is too slow to enjoy!
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Another idea for you would be to mount a MiniITX PC inside an A1200 or A500 case and use a Keyrah (http://www.vesalia.de/e_keyrah.htm)& emulation
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What sort of web browsing?
An 030 is fine for basic forum stuff, visiting aminet, internet chat and whatnot.
Obviously, complex web sites will pretty much kill your machine :)
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I thought Netsurf requires 64MB and RTG in any case? And it recommends an 060? I'd try iBrowse or Voyager, instead.
I have an A1200 with a 50MHz 030 (before that, a 40MHz 030.) iBrowse is balky, especially with Javascript, but it's fairly solidly in the "usable" category. Voyager is better, but less featureful. I haven't tried ALynx as I couldn't get it to work, but I imagine that would be a lot more usable.
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I thought Netsurf requires 64MB and RTG in any case? And it recommends an 060? I'd try iBrowse or Voyager, instead.
I have an A1200 with a 50MHz 030 (before that, a 40MHz 030.) iBrowse is balky, especially with Javascript, but it's fairly solidly in the "usable" category. Voyager is better, but less featureful. I haven't tried ALynx as I couldn't get it to work, but I imagine that would be a lot more usable.
yeah, netsurf is likely a nogo on an 030. Stick with Ibrowse or some of the others out there.
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It might be possible to get NetSurf running with native AGA, you'll still need a powerful machine to run it though.
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What sort of web browsing?
An 030 is fine for basic forum stuff, visiting aminet, internet chat and whatnot.
Mainly reddit, amiga.org, ycombinator, slashdot, aminet, gmail in html-mode, and hopefully my bank.
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It might be possible to get NetSurf running with native AGA, you'll still need a powerful machine to run it though.
I see in your signature that you're running an A1200 @ 80Mhz. Do you browse from that machine? If so, how does the system behave with that power?
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Still wont beat a £50 PC though :laugh1:
Point taken. I'm still amazed that Amigas have held up as well as they have though. I'm sure there are a few on the forum still posting from an upgraded A500 or A1000 somewhere.
I plan to learn 68k assembly on the machine, so it will be used for more than just browsing, FYI.
Not to derail this thread, but, why haven't replacements for the A1200 *motherboard* been more popular historically? The original motherboard has a slow bus, correct? Why, then, haven't there been aftermarket replacement motherboards with broader busses, etc? It seems like the aftermarket vendors are focusing on one part of the system rather than the whole. Is it because of kickstart and other chips are hard to relocate to a new board? Many of the people frequenting the Minimig and Natami sites are owners of the classic machines, yet these vendors are targeting their products for new cases. Production of drop in upgrades for the older machines would seem to be more business savvy than producing new 68k hardware targeted for x86 cases. The price and scarcity of some of the more powerful accelerators on eBay and AmigaKit would seem to confirm that assumption, but I digress...
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Not to derail this thread, but, why haven't replacements for the A1200 *motherboard* been more popular historically? The original motherboard has a slow bus, correct? Why, then, haven't there been aftermarket replacement motherboards with broader busses, etc? It seems like the aftermarket vendors are focusing on one part of the system rather than the whole. Is it because of kickstart and other chips are hard to relocate to a new board?
It's because the entire chipset is designed around that bus, and if you wanted to change that, you'd basically have to implement an entire new computer. Which is what projects like the SAM boards and NatAmi have done - but for those who can't afford a SAM, or want to stick with their 1200, it's a lot more practical to just get upgrades for the parts of the system that can practically be upgraded.
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I see in your signature that you're running an A1200 @ 80Mhz. Do you browse from that machine? If so, how does the system behave with that power?
I'll do a video for you when I get it up and running online.
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OS 4.1 speed (browsing and most other things) is fine; I only notice "stuff" because of my ISP speed and with programs written for AmigaNG machines. Granted I am running OS 4.1 on a CSPPC at 200/50 and there is a difference between a BPPC and a CSPPC (603 vs 604).
As for browsing speed in OS 4, Ibrowse is quick; AWeb, OWB & NetSurf use more memory but are more "modern" in they way they handle current pages. In OS 3.x, none of the browsers -- to the best of my knowledge -- use the PPC for rendering, but Ibrowse and Voyager work well. An RTG helps not just with colors and resolution, but also with rendering speed.
If my opinions are wrong, feel free to comment, but please to call me an "idiot" or otherwise embarrass me in the forums.
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I found my old PPC/040 powered BVision A1200 absolutely unusable for browsing anything, tbh.
Spoiled by other modern platforms maybe, I guess. But more times than not I'd get pissed off at waiting for a page to load on it and just grab my phone, which brought the same page up immediately, displayed as intended.
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yeah, but browsing the web on your phone isn't as cool :)
Besides, unless your amiga has USB, it's no use for getting aminet stuff to the miggy.
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I've been running Amiga through emulation for ages and would like to return to hardware.
That is a wise decision :)
I'm fond of the old A500 chassis, but I assume it would could not be made powerful enough for something like netsurf even with an accelerator.
That is correct
I have not been able to get Netsurf working through emulation without enabling Picasso so I assume any hardware solution will need to support this. Is this something that an accelerator will take care of?
Yes, but it still will be a very slow experience. Ive tried, on my a1200 + 060 + rtg, but I wouldnt call it usable.
Cost isn't really an option; I can afford a powerful accelerator provided it can be found.
In that case, get the a1200 + ppc + 060 + bvision. It will fit the 'wedge' case, but its not recommended (heating and power issues). If you are concerned about that, take the a4000 + ppc + 060 + cvision route.
like I said, those setups will give you the fastest classic Amiga experience, but it still wont get you a modern, stable, fast webbrowser. Although Timberwolf comes closest. You know about Timberwolf, right?
So if that is still not what you're after, you might be better off with a cheaper solution: a1200 + 030/50 and just use Ibrowse. It is a fast, stable browser. But it doesnt support any of the modern web standards like CSS, Flash etc. Basically it will look like it's 1996 again. Not sure if that is a bad thing.. ;)
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You could use Remote Desktop (http://www.hd-zone.com/remote-desktop/) on your miggy. Haven't tried it myself though...
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Current version of 68k Netsurf is crap :( It SDL port of Framebuffer version of Netsurf wich is meant to be debugging and no gui systems.
Originally Netsurf requires ARM6 and 16mb ram, wich quite near of 030
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I found my old PPC/040 powered BVision A1200 absolutely unusable for browsing anything, tbh.
Too bad. MorphOS1.4.5+MUI4+updated ambient+IBrowse would work nicely on that setup :-) you could even launch OWB for some webpages.
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Yes, but it still will be a very slow experience. Ive tried, on my a1200 + 060 + rtg, but I wouldnt call it usable.
We're trying to do something about that.
As utri007 says, NetSurf should be usable on a 68030 with 16MB and AGA. That'll be the absolute minimum, it might need a bit more than that, but it should be doable. The current 68k version, however, is rubbish.
This is the Atari 68k version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obDYaWp0wPo
I'm not convinced that is actually an '030 but the uploader hasn't posted a counter-comment saying it isn't. If it is, there's no reason why an AmigaOS 3 version should be slower.
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I always found Ibrowse x.x to be reasonably fast on an '030 and up. In 1995 you had a 56k modem and was roughly in sync with the decoding speed of the images on native graphics, so it didn't appear to be that slow.
As I expanded to broadband later and also expanded to RTG/060 (1200T), ~ year 1999 I found that again, Ibrowse latest version, SSL plugin, up to date image decoding, Miami Deluxe, 060/X-surf/ Picasso IV was the fastest I've seen as far as web browsing experience on the amiga.
I realize much has changed in the landscape of web content, so of course much of this doesn't hold true today, but as far as "real hardware" was concerned, this was very spiffy indeed and was roughly the same, responsive-wise as say win98/Mozilla.
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With a 1200 (B1260 50 MHz and AGA) it is not bad surfing amiga boards or plain html websites such as aminet or whdload.de with Ibrowse 2.4. It is a bit better with an A2000 (B2060 50Mhz and RTG) and this one can also use Netsurf for more advanced websites.
Actually, this is still better on the amiga than surfing from a mid-2000's Palm OS device such as the Clié UX50 with Netsurf 3.1. And it is definitly cooler than surfing from an Android or Apple device.
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We're trying to do something about that.
As utri007 says, NetSurf should be usable on a 68030 with 16MB and AGA. That'll be the absolute minimum, it might need a bit more than that, but it should be doable. The current 68k version, however, is rubbish.
This is the Atari 68k version: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obDYaWp0wPo
I'm not convinced that is actually an '030 but the uploader hasn't posted a counter-comment saying it isn't. If it is, there's no reason why an AmigaOS 3 version should be slower.
Hi Chris, I have no idea who you are, probably one of the Netsurf guys? :) Anyway it looks really, really fast on that Falcon machine. If an Amiga 030 even had half of that speed it would be perfect on my 060. Hope this will happen some day!
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Hi Chris, I have no idea who you are, probably one of the Netsurf guys? :) Anyway it looks really, really fast on that Falcon machine. If an Amiga 030 even had half of that speed it would be perfect on my 060. Hope this will happen some day!
I, too, have seen the video and agree, what was shown is exactly what would be desired for browsing from a classic Amiga. Is there a bounty set up for porting NetSurf to AGA? If so, I would gladly contribute.
Also, would an A1200 with an ACA 1232 accelerator perform similar to the Falcon in the video, assuming NetSurf is ported to AGA from SDL?
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I, too, have seen the video and agree, what was shown is exactly what would be desired for browsing from a classic Amiga. Is there a bounty set up for porting NetSurf to AGA? If so, I would gladly contribute.
Also, would an A1200 with an ACA 1232 accelerator perform similar to the Falcon in the video, assuming NetSurf is ported to AGA from SDL?
I'm looking into doing a native AGA/RTG port, just don't hold your breath.
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A lot depends on the setup what performance you can get out of A1200. The more you overclock the chances are its going to be unstable.
Stability is key to enjoying any computer,and this is what I worked on for some time now and can enjoy web browsing on a very high speed A1200 with no stability issues whatsoever in a standard A1200 desktop.
The bus speed is a important factor here,but a increase in bus speed normally makes the computer unstable, fix this and you have a very fast stable computer.
Here I have 75Mhz bus as standard,but expect for sure a new world record for dram bandwidth on classic amiga, but also expect blizzard card to close the gap to 100Mhz users of apollo card from its current 96Mhz when overclocking is allowed in second half of 2013.
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I'm looking into doing a native AGA/RTG port, just don't hold your breath.
>I'm looking into doing a native AGA/RTG port, just don't hold your breath.
this sound good, i hope you have enough time and you can add more than 10 good working lines of code average per month. ;-). to motivate you more there are good news about netsurf.
netsurf is now go to 3.0 in christmas und there is some jave support in too.
http://vincentsanders.blogspot.de/2012/11/another-netsurf-developer-workshop.html
The MUI Version from itix is still very out of date. maybe he get motivate again, when he see working java in netsurf. libnsfb in netsurf have code for 1 bitplane and 8 bitplanes. maybe you test with that on AGA if this can get usefull speed
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Ok I'll take a look, thanks for that.
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I'm looking into doing a native AGA/RTG port, just don't hold your breath.
Where do we donate?
Seriously, that would be so awesome.
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in the meantime aros owb (not osyssey by fab but the previous fork) loads already on 68k. on my a4000/060 it currently takes 2 minutes to load. it has taken ages but i removed all ttf font sets from fonts save for one. it doesn display any pages yet thoug , since there are apparently several endiannes problems (one located for what i know).
http://aros-exec.org/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=7724&forum=4&post_id=75523#forumpost75523
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Where do we donate?
Seriously, that would be so awesome.
Thanks but it's not money I need but spare time ;)
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Really good news
Thanks Chris and NovaCoder this descent new browser will give a new breath for our Amiga.
Personnaly i use my Amiga to read my mail, speaking friends with SabreMsn, surfing amiga sites not only for Games.
I love "your challenge", i understand that's a lot of work though, keep us informed please.
Good Luck.
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Novacoder, I think some bounty money for asian hookers, liquor, meth and coke would help alot. Whatever it takes you keep you happy and coding.
Looks damn fast on that atari... Dammit an atari really can do something better than an amiga after all?
NO!
:laugh1:
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NovaCoder...you are one of my heros! ;) Keep on and accept some donations!
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I've been running Amiga through emulation for ages and would like to return to hardware. I'd like to build up a 3.X-ClassicWB machine capable of running Netsurf. Would an A1200 with the recently released ACA 1232 fit the bill? If not, would one of the workstation models be better for this scenario?
I'd like to run a 500 or 1200 wedge if at all possible, but I will use one of the workstation models if that's what it will take to get a decent browsing experience. I'm fond of the old A500 chassis, but I assume it would could not be made powerful enough for something like netsurf even with an accelerator.
I have not been able to get Netsurf working through emulation without enabling Picasso so I assume any hardware solution will need to support this. Is this something that an accelerator will take care of?
Cost isn't really an option; I can afford a powerful accelerator provided it can be found.
Thanks in advance.
I used my A4000T 060 with dial-up back in the day for web surfing and sniping Ebay auctions but that was when Ebay had pretty much first started and High Speed internet wasn't really the norm in most if not all households yet. But with todays web content I would be interested in how a classic holds up to current web pages. 060 minimum if you are using a 1200. I honestly wouldn't even bother with the 500 unless you just want to see
if it can be done..
just my opinion..
Rich
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I used internet with my 50mhz 68030 1200 with ibrowse. Browsing was painfully slow on most websites even with a high speed internet connection, but it was still so useful for emailing myself files, modarchive,aminet, irc, telnet bbs systems and more...
Eventually, I set up a file dump for myself on my webspace, so I could easily transfer files to and from the amiga. I suppose if I had usb capability on my 1200, I could have just used a thumb drive, but I didn't so hey this worked...
The internet is a vast and huge resource and can still be taken advantage of by amiga computers, even if it means no watching youtube videos or really
high resource demanding pages...
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OS 4.1 speed (browsing and most other things) is fine; I only notice "stuff" because of my ISP speed and with programs written for AmigaNG machines. Granted I am running OS 4.1 on a CSPPC at 200/50 and there is a difference between a BPPC and a CSPPC (603 vs 604).
As for browsing speed in OS 4, Ibrowse is quick; AWeb, OWB & NetSurf use more memory but are more "modern" in they way they handle current pages. In OS 3.x, none of the browsers -- to the best of my knowledge -- use the PPC for rendering, but Ibrowse and Voyager work well. An RTG helps not just with colors and resolution, but also with rendering speed.
If my opinions are wrong, feel free to comment, but please to call me an "idiot" or otherwise embarrass me in the forums.
BPPC V CSPPC
BPPC overall has the upper hand here. CSPPC has CPU power,but BPPC has 256MB of very high speed memory access which can match or outperform CSPPC.
BPPC PCI bus standard has also changed along with Bvision sgram.
If timberwolf memory is kept low expect this to work on BPPC.
NOTE: you are going to need very high speed memory access and meet the minimum specification set out below,but some or all modifications is not available as some modification has not been tested on OS4.x due to software support.
CPU power minimum specification is also set to change no overclocking and its not a 603e.
I can confirm BPPC has already set a world record on classic amiga for dram bandwidth to further increase its memory performance over CSPPC.
http://www.amiga.org/gallery/index.php?n=3692
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Who is this masked man NovaCoder, who can leap the AGA chipset in a single bound, who can consume terabytes of data in a split second.
Some say he codes with his eye's shut, others say he has mind control over the infamous guru.