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Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: lassie on October 19, 2012, 04:24:56 AM
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Hi i have a Apollo 1230 with 35 mhz. If i find another Apollo or someone like it, still with a 030 CPU but 50 mhz will it make my Amiga run faster and will more 3D games play better? Or does it not change so much in speed.
And what are that Overclocking someone talks about, how do they Overclock an CPU
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In the simplistic example, yes - 15mhz will make a noticeable difference in OS functions and most other day to day use. Many or most things will seem improved and snappier.
If you're hoping 3D games will play leagues (or many multiples of frames) better, I'd say you'd be disappointed.
Which 3D games are we talking about? Anything that is close to the definition of modern, you're going to want an 060 processor. Skip the 040 as it runs too hot and takes more electricity = heat, unless you land one on the cheap.
Over-clocking a board and CPU like this typically results in greater heat and less stability. Be prepared to learn about cooling - if it's even an option - which is typically NOT for the average user. See if your particular CPU stamp is even capable first... then swap an oscillator (crystal) or two if it has a discrete math co-processor. Thing is, I've found the "art" of over-clocking to be a huge mixed bag. Hardly worth the risk IMO, unless you really know what you're doing and implement all the safeguards.
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Hi i have a Apollo 1230 with 35 mhz. If i find another Apollo or someone like it, still with a 030 CPU but 50 mhz will it make my Amiga run faster and will more 3D games play better? Or does it not change so much in speed.
And what are that Overclocking someone talks about, how do they Overclock an CPU
To give you an idea... a 25mhz 040 is twice as fast as a 030-50 (the flagship 030)...
an 060 runs twice the clock speed of an 040 just for starters and has other advantages, as save2600 already mentioned, but is not to be understated for a desktop 1200... Some 040 accelerators are only designed for a towered 1200...
if you wanted 50mhz 030 its probably better to sell the Apollo and buy a Blizzard. I don't think MOT ever made a 35mhz 030, so its probably already overclocked :/
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In the simplistic example, yes - 15mhz will make a noticeable difference in OS functions and most other day to day use. Many or most things will seem improved and snappier.
If you're hoping 3D games will play leagues (or many multiples of frames) better, I'd say you'd be disappointed.
Which 3D games are we talking about? Anything that is close to the definition of modern, you're going to want an 060 processor. Skip the 040 as it runs too hot and takes more electricity = heat, unless you land one on the cheap.
Over-clocking a board and CPU like this typically results in greater heat and less stability. Be prepared to learn about cooling - if it's even an option - which is typically NOT for the average user. See if your particular CPU stamp is even capable first... then swap an oscillator (crystal) or two if it has a discrete math co-processor. Thing is, I've found the "art" of over-clocking to be a huge mixed bag. Hardly worth the risk IMO, unless you really know what you're doing and implement all the safeguards.
Hi it was game like Doom and Genetic species and Alien Breed 3D 2 i was thinking about, it could be cool if i could play them in full screen with fast speed :) but mayby it will be better with a 040 CPU.
I have tried Quake on my Apollo 1230 and it could not even run that in small screen, it was so so slow. I think i need a 060 for that game :)
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To give you an idea... a 25mhz 040 is twice as fast as a 030-50 (the flagship 030)...
an 060 runs twice the clock speed of an 040 just for starters and has other advantages, as save2600 already mentioned, but is not to be understated for a desktop 1200... Some 040 accelerators are only designed for a towered 1200...
if you wanted 50mhz 030 its probably better to sell the Apollo and buy a Blizzard. I don't think MOT ever made a 35mhz 030, so its probably already overclocked :/
Thanks for your answer :) Yes maybe it is overclocked now, they have used glue on the RAM the one who had it before me, to put the RAM in place i think. I find it strange that someone will use glue on it :) But it runs quite fine now. Workbench loads up in seconds, and the first Doom game runs quite good, but Doom 2 is very slow with this Apollo
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To give you an idea... a 25mhz 040 is twice as fast as a 030-50 (the flagship 030)...
an 060 runs twice the clock speed of an 040 just for starters and has other advantages, as save2600 already mentioned, but is not to be understated for a desktop 1200... Some 040 accelerators are only designed for a towered 1200...
if you wanted 50mhz 030 its probably better to sell the Apollo and buy a Blizzard. I don't think MOT ever made a 35mhz 030, so its probably already overclocked :/
HI
Are there even made 060 for Desktop Amiga 1200?
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All other things being equal, more megahertz is faster. Problem is, how much faster isn't exactly a linear function of clock speed. The system can burn through instructions on a 50MHz 030 42% faster than it can on a 35MHz 030, yes, but the instructions and their associated data have to get to the CPU first. Unfortunately, most Amiga accelerators were built at a time when main memory just couldn't keep up with even 35MHz, let alone 50MHz (at least not cost-effectively,) so the CPU can be kept waiting for memory to respond, and since the memory speed is relatively constant for that era, the number of cycles it wastes spinning its wheels actually increases as the clock speed goes up.
There are mitigating factors, thankfully - the 68k architecture has always tended towards longer cycle-counts for instructions anyway, so even a fast CPU isn't always going to be running up against the memory bottleneck for every instruction (especially not math-heavy stuff.) And the 030 does include a little bit of high-speed cache memory (holds frequently-accessed instructions & data, and serves as a buffer between a fast CPU and slow memory.) Still, the 030's cache is small, and very few Amiga accelerators include any additional cache, so it only helps somewhat. (This is part of why an 040 can make such a big difference, it has much more cache memory.)
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All other things being equal, more megahertz is faster. Problem is, how much faster isn't exactly a linear function of clock speed. The system can burn through instructions on a 50MHz 030 42% faster than it can on a 35MHz 030, yes, but the instructions and their associated data have to get to the CPU first. Unfortunately, most Amiga accelerators were built at a time when main memory just couldn't keep up with even 35MHz, let alone 50MHz (at least not cost-effectively,) so the CPU can be kept waiting for memory to respond, and since the memory speed is relatively constant for that era, the number of cycles it wastes spinning its wheels actually increases as the clock speed goes up.
There are mitigating factors, thankfully - the 68k architecture has always tended towards longer cycle-counts for instructions anyway, so even a fast CPU isn't always going to be running up against the memory bottleneck for every instruction (especially not math-heavy stuff.) And the 030 does include a little bit of high-speed cache memory (holds frequently-accessed instructions & data, and serves as a buffer between a fast CPU and slow memory.) Still, the 030's cache is small, and very few Amiga accelerators include any additional cache, so it only helps somewhat. (This is part of why an 040 can make such a big difference, it has much more cache memory.)
Hi then i know why the 040 is so much faster than the 030.
I can see you have a 030 with 50 mhz :) Have you tried the first Doom on yours? and if so how fast was it
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I can see you have a 030 with 50 mhz :) Have you tried the first Doom on yours? and if so how fast was it
I haven't, at least not yet.
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I had DOOM on my Blizzard IV 68030 @ 50 MHz. It is like playing Wing Commander on Amiga 500. It is playable but not very smooth and sometimes it just crawls.
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I had DOOM on my Blizzard IV 68030 @ 50 MHz. It is like playing Wing Commander on Amiga 500. It is playable but not very smooth and sometimes it just crawls.
Hi if it could get so smooth as on the PC do you think that it will take a 060 to do that?
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On my 030/56, Alien Breed 3D, Gloom Deluxe and Genetic Species are all very playable.
Doom works but it's a bit pokey.
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There are mitigating factors, thankfully - the 68k architecture has always tended towards longer cycle-counts for instructions anyway, so even a fast CPU isn't always going to be running up against the memory bottleneck for every instruction (especially not math-heavy stuff.) And the 030 does include a little bit of high-speed cache memory (holds frequently-accessed instructions & data, and serves as a buffer between a fast CPU and slow memory.) Still, the 030's cache is small, and very few Amiga accelerators include any additional cache, so it only helps somewhat. (This is part of why an 040 can make such a big difference, it has much more cache memory.)
Chip ram is not cached and accessing slow custom chip registers wastes most of 040's potential. Depending on application more MHz is not helping at all. For CPU intensive applications 040 is better but sometimes 030 is more performant on Amiga.
When I upgraded my Blizzard IV 030 to BlizzardPPC with 040 disk performance downgraded (using internal IDE on A1200) but viewing JPEGs was much much faster.
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On my 030/56, Alien Breed 3D, Gloom Deluxe and Genetic Species are all very playable.
Doom works but it's a bit pokey.
Okay cool :) i think Genetic Species is a very good looking game.
I know that Amiga is not a 3D monster but it could be nice to show my friends that it can play some old 3D games smootly :) But i will have to save up for a bigger CPU. But those damn Amigas takes all my money as it is now :shocked:
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Hi if it could get so smooth as on the PC do you think that it will take a 060 to do that?
Perhaps 040 @ 40 MHz would do it but if at all possible go for 68060.
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Hi,
The cache memory does make a big difference. I once turned off the Level 1 cache on a Pentium 200mhz and everything just slowed to a crawl.
If you turn off the cache on an 040, there is a slow down, but most things still run normal.
If the game is CPU intensive then that is what you need to upgrade. If it is graphics dependant then you are limited by the graphics chips.
Try the game on WinUAE or other UAE and see if it is worth upgrading the Amiga.
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The cache memory does make a big difference. I once turned off the Level 1 cache on a Pentium 200mhz and everything just slowed to a crawl.
If you turn off the cache on an 040, there is a slow down, but most things still run normal.
That's what amazes me, looking back at the mid-'90s - 200MHz clock speeds, and everybody was still using RAM that wasn't fast enough for 33MHz CPUs...yikes.
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Hi if it could get so smooth as on the PC do you think that it will take a 060 to do that?
If I were you lassie, I'd save up for an 060 card. If you buy an 040 card at 40MHz (as great as they are) you'll always want more speed eventually. Especially if you expect to play AB3DII TKG at full screen, or Quake in any form.
Have you tried Gloom Deluxe?
http://hol.abime.net/2741/screenshot
It's a brilliant game, and it runs very nicely on an 040 at 40MHz. With a reduced screen size it might run okay on your 030 as well.
Even Gloom 1 (just called "Gloom") is a great game, and that will run very smooth on your current system. ;)
http://hol.abime.net/2739/screenshot
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I agree with Paul... Save up and buy the best accelerator available.
I would view utube videos of those systems running the games first or use winuae.
The biggest limit your fighting against is the chipset so speed increases are never linear. But they certainly help.
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That's what amazes me, looking back at the mid-'90s - 200MHz clock speeds, and everybody was still using RAM that wasn't fast enough for 33MHz CPUs...yikes.
You say that like it's a thing of the past! Memory still can't keep up with the CPU.
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You say that like it's a thing of the past! Memory still can't keep up with the CPU.
Oh, quite true. But not by quite so wide a margin, these days...
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You say that like it's a thing of the past! Memory still can't keep up with the CPU.
With EDO memory at this speed who needs SDRAM
http://hwbot.org/competition/team_cup_2012_sc3/stage/623_edo_dram
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Hah! Where do I get some of that for my Amiga?