Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: MiAmigo on September 05, 2012, 06:29:11 PM
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It doesn't seem to be going anywhere, but appears to really annoy a lot of classic Amiga and 64 users. Their market presence and advertising are almost non-existent. (But if you've ever visited their website or Facebook page, you'd swear they were BIGGER than Commodore ever was!)
But the reality is, (outside of this forum, in the real world), you've either heard of them, or you have not, and they don't seem to be doing a thing to change that status. (Honestly, the first I ever heard of them I was actually doing a Google search for mini-ITX boards for a cluster project, and for some reason their website popped up as one of the hits.)
So, what's the deal with them? Is it just another quick buck operation, trying to make whatever they can off the brand name?
One other question: We've all seem them come and go, from Escom to CUSA. This begs the question: Why has it been so difficult to do a successful reboot of this enterprise?
Post Scriptum: My attitude towards that thing they make (all of them) is almost the same as my attitude towards emulators, and I'll say no more on that subject!
:angryfire:
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They're a fast-buck operation, and the only thing that distinguishes them from any other fast-buck operation is how inept they seem to be at it. They can't design a PC that even sounds convincing on paper (multiple people in the community had to tell them outright they picked an inadequate power supply for their announcement of the "Amiga Mini,") they have absurd delays in shipping that make it clear that Barry doesn't even keep the parts in stock for fear of not getting enough orders to clear it out, and Barry seems to spend far more time fighting with community members than actually conducting business.
The only real question is why they haven't taken the money and run, and I assume that's because they haven't made that much money yet, and are still holding out and hoping that a few more schmucks out of whoever they haven't alienated completely will take the bait. Yeah, good luck with that.
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Good points all!
Here's a short-list attempt to answer my own question as to why Amiga/Commodore reboots fail:
1. Don't call it 'Amiga'.
2. Don't call your company 'Commodore'.
3. Don't decide it was the hardware OR the software - it was both. Choosing one over the other leads to more emulators (as if we need more) or travesties where PC guts are summarily shoved into Commodore cases. Neither of these schemes has (or will ever) bring Amiga innovation back to the marketplace.
4. Don't use Intel processors, OR AMD, instead, bring back Motorola (or, really, any new, little known, or innovative CPU manufacturer). Simply because the CPU market is stagnant, and could use more innovation driven by competition. And, of course, when you use Intel/AMD you basically are consigning your creation to the hell of Point Number 3 (see above.)
5. Dont' say 'it' (whatever 'it' is) can't be done. Say 'we haven't figured it out yet, but it can and will be done'. This type of innovation drove the C64 and the Amiga.
6. Screw what the market is doing right now! Even though PCs are extremely advanced, they're little more than appliances, lacking in the 'Fun and Innovation' Department.
7. Reverse emulation, by all means: The best way to get people to buy your new creation is for them to know that they can still run their software/games on it. So, by all means, emulate the hell out of PCs for that type of compatibility, and that's all.
8. Advertise, advertise, advertise!
9. Remember that, above all, the Amiga, and the Commodore 64 before it, were both introduced into a time and marketplace where everybody knew what computers lacked, and yet few seemed to know exactly how to address the problem. Here in the year 2012, the market is much more sophisticated technologically, but still lacking in lots of areas. The bar is certainly higher, but the goal remains the same - blow Wintels out of the technological waters with innovations, advancements and improvements they can't or won't make.
10. Don't call it Amiga or Commodore - these names are doomed to failure!
:hat::hat::hat::hat::hat::hat::hat:
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Good points all!
Here's a short-list attempt to answer my own question as to why Amiga/Commodore reboots fail:
10. Don't call it Amiga or Commodore - these names are doomed to failure!
:hat::hat::hat::hat::hat::hat::hat:
What is the deal - it can hardly be one.
We tried suggesting the things, but they have their own way.
Now Amiga Mini is dead (just barebone) and yet anything can be it.
http://anticusa.wordpress.com/amiga-mini-is-dead-already-as-well-as-cos-is-non-compatibile-to-many-standard-x64-machines/
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Back in 1983, Commodore users hated IBM because Commodore put out advertising showing how much the IBM PC Jr cost and how much a Commodore 64 cost. Commodore was a competitor and set the tone for its users.
Some of the Commodore users never really learned to use a 286 or 386 back then. I used Dos in College but I wasn't an expert at it.
Since we never learned to use the IBM's Kernal, architecture or assembly language, what makes you think we would drool at Commodore USA putting a PC inside of a Commodore like case?
It is a gimmick and it may appeal to some geeks but then again, I remember when the C-64 was selling for $120 so it is kind of hard to buy an overpriced PC so that Commodore USA can use the name and sell us a case.
The product is not what we want. We want a successor to the Commodore 64 or 128 which was probably going to be a C-65, run Basic or another language, have Commodore ASCII on the keys, be 80 colums or more, run sprites, have 512K, run at 40 MHZ or more and have new hardware.
If Barry could license the ROMS, license the SID chip, the PLL's, the RAM and use a 65C812S chip, I bet they would be popular. I bet they could even find a few ex-Commodore engineers to work on it. It would sell. It would sell better than the computers they are selling. I bet they could sell half a million on the first run or more!!!
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Hopefully the end is nigh.
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Hopefully the end is nigh.
Effectivly they just abuse Linux now.
http://anticusa.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/distrowatch-analysis-vision-is-not-up-to-mint-13-maybe-fusion-will-be/
http://anticusa.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/commodoreos-beta-9-is-mint-that-you-can-download-and-install-free-at-1ghz-pc-1gb/
And how do they respect MINT dem a steal, pirates and lowlifes!
Hi,
They contacted us and we talked about a partnership initially. Then we didn’t hear from them anymore so we assumed they weren’t interested in doing anything with us.
We’re still happy to see our OS used by others and I don’t think there’s any problems in regards to licensing. It’s just a missed opportunity for them and for us to establish what would have been a very good partnership.
Regards,
Clement Lefebvre
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There has been much criticism of the company CUSA because of its hype and claims of creating a “new operating system for our computers” and then simply skinning an existing linux distribution. Critics of CUSA and several linux experts have stated that COS development time has been less than 2 weeks time to write some scripts and replace standard mint graphics files with their own
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Effectivly they just abuse Linux now.
http://anticusa.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/distrowatch-analysis-vision-is-not-up-to-mint-13-maybe-fusion-will-be/
http://anticusa.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/commodoreos-beta-9-is-mint-that-you-can-download-and-install-free-at-1ghz-pc-1gb/
And how do they respect MINT dem a steal, pirates and lowlifes!
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That's par for the course.
Linux seems to be the 'fall back' OS for everyone looking for a viable alternative to Windows, and also, a cheap one. (My personal tastes is that Linux only exists as a rebellion to the Windows regime. This in and of itself is not bad, or wrong, but when something is created solely for that type of response to something else, then real innovation suffers, since it doesn't seem to have been the original purpose for creating the thing. So, no, I am not a Linux fan for that reason, and a few others.)
"Different for difference sake" is not as good as "different because this new way is better".
Linux also has gained the somewhat dubious reputation of being the 'fast, easy, and cheap' way to go when you need an OS in your device, and you don't want to pay Billy Gates. That entire philosophy leaves a rather bad taste in my mouth, so its not surprising that CUSA would immediately jump on the bandwagon for their OS, after all. You can download it for free, do bare minimum (to no) tweaking, and voila!
Like many here, I enthusiastically sent them a slew of my best ideas, which were promptly ignored - not so much as an acknowledgement of ever having received anything from me. This small snub (not even an auto-responder?) seems to set the tone for what they want, and what they're after.
We won't have to worry about them much longer. In the immortal words of Bones, "I think he's dead, Jim." just about describes where they'll be this time next year, if not sooner.
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That's par for the course.
Like many here, I enthusiastically sent them a slew of my best ideas, which were promptly ignored - not so much as an acknowledgement of ever having received anything from me. This small snub (not even an auto-responder?) seems to set the tone for what they want, and what they're after.
We won't have to worry about them much longer. In the immortal words of Bones, "I think he's dead, Jim." just about describes where they'll be this time next year, if not sooner.
True, they will not be Millionaires unlike Trotters that at least try so hard.
Early back in the days AROS community tried to link up, everyone was entusiastic, their own community tried with forums ... and Nooo ... we just get bunch of insults in Barrons interviews, and the way they wish to go with no reality based PR ...
True example how NOT to conduct bussiness
Even criticism was intended to improve their "services" and "product" but then you face insults on national, religious, health, sexuality and faith grounds.
My example
http://anticusa.wordpress.com/2012/07/03/aussie-get-baron-stylee/
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Arguably CUSA has created a nice case for their C64 look alike. It`s hard to find a comparable box these days.
You can' t blame a company for selling Intel chips in their hardware and Linux is a good choice if you want to add branding on an otherwise free OS. So it all rational choices here.
Let' s not forget that in the world of business today, you don' t have to earn the right to use a name. You just have to pay for it and defend it. There is no real development done by CUSA, but apparently they hired some designers for the cases and don' t be mistaken:
"Skinning" a Linux distro to the extend they where doing requires dedication and a lot of work.
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Arguably CUSA has created a nice case for their C64 look alike. It`s hard to find a comparable box these days.
You can' t blame a company for selling Intel chips in their hardware and Linux is a good choice if you want to add branding on an otherwise free OS. So it all rational choices here.
"Skinning" a Linux distro to the extend they where doing requires dedication and a lot of work.
a) Yes, they have made ONE case. Nothing more than that.
b) We can blame them for selling them as most expensive (-highest profit margin) with no real commercial software or added value of any kind
c) There is nothing really new in COS that is not part of the MINT, in fact MINT is way more advanced and compatibile now. So its outdated, incompatibile Linux for general Linux use and great fakerism of developing anything
Please provide any arguments that tell the opossite.
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Arguably CUSA has created a nice case for their C64 look alike. It`s hard to find a comparable box these days.
You can' t blame a company for selling Intel chips in their hardware and Linux is a good choice if you want to add branding on an otherwise free OS. So it all rational choices here.
Let' s not forget that in the world of business today, you don' t have to earn the right to use a name. You just have to pay for it and defend it. There is no real development done by CUSA, but apparently they hired some designers for the cases and don' t be mistaken:
"Skinning" a Linux distro to the extend they where doing requires dedication and a lot of work.
True, I like the cases, what original C64 user wouldn't? But, truthfully, there are a lot of C64 cases out there, I have a few myself.
And, I don't need to pay XXXX amount of dollars to have somebody else shove PC guts into one, I can do that myself, too. If a person were unsure just how to do this, Maximum PC already told how: (http://www.scribd.com/doc/101965893/Maximum-PC-Magazine-August-2012)
I can and do blame them for using Intel processors. :python:
I'm sure preparing the Linux distro was difficult - as a matter of fact, it was so hard, they seems to have half-a$$ed it, and screwed it all up!
In effect, this thing is something of a monstrosity.
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True, I like the cases, what original C64 user wouldn't? But, truthfully, there are a lot of C64 cases out there, I have a few myself.
I can and do blame them for using Intel processors. :python:
I'm sure preparing the Linux distro was difficult - as a matter of fact, it was so hard, they seems to have half-a$$ed it, and screwed it all up!
In effect, this thing is something of a monstrosity.
OK if they intended to do it for dummies they should surely charge less, go with Win7 starter and Linux with AmigaForever and AROS (as promised here)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzsmiuEYUQY
as well as AMD ATI solution would be way greater performant than ATOM and integrated nVIDIA. Same goes for i7.
Again, see AresOne prices and learn
http://www.vesalia.de/e_aresone.htm
There is even less CUSA offers for much more.
Beside engravement.
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Arguably CUSA has created a nice case for their C64 look alike. It`s hard to find a comparable box these days.
Yes, the one case. It is indeed quite pretty. However, it's not exactly enough to earn absolution for everything else they've ever done, pretty or no. And anyway everything they've done since has been prefab cases badly emblazoned with rented trademarks.
You can' t blame a company for selling Intel chips in their hardware and Linux is a good choice if you want to add branding on an otherwise free OS. So it all rational choices here.
Rational or no, it still means that they offer exactly nothing not offered by every other PC manufacturer in existence, not to mention having exactly zilch in common with either the C64 or the Amiga.
Let' s not forget that in the world of business today, you don' t have to earn the right to use a name. You just have to pay for it and defend it.
This is correct. However, the mere fact that something is legal does not make it automatically admirable or ethical, and charging massive markup on commodity hardware and free software in an attempt to exploit nostalgia is not something that can be called either admirable or ethical on its own merits.
There is no real development done by CUSA, but apparently they hired some designers for the cases and don' t be mistaken:
"Skinning" a Linux distro to the extend they where doing requires dedication and a lot of work.
No it doesn't.
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"Skinning" a Linux distro to the extend they where doing requires dedication and a lot of work.
I've been a linux user since 1996...
I disagree. If you really look at what they've done, they've given you some wallpapers, compiz panoramic graphics, made a system sound theme and a few other things.
They have also installed a bunch of things for you from the ubuntu repos.
But thats about it. Thats not development, thats simply customizing it a bit.
Development requires actual work.
Steven
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"Skinning" a Linux distro to the extend they where doing requires dedication and a lot of work.
I've been a linux user since 1996...
I disagree. If you really look at what they've done, they've given you some wallpapers, compiz panoramic graphics, made a system sound theme and a few other things.
They have also installed a bunch of things for you from the ubuntu repos.
But thats about it. Thats not development, thats simply customizing it a bit.
Development requires actual work.
Steven
Not to mention Leo pretends to be the only IT litterate person around there, beside some PR, lawliar and a dog. If that is so much of development ... I never get why do they get any followers.
Our small enthusiasts and companies kind of sound PRO and RELIABLE when compared ... as well as INNOVATIVE.
AresOne is much better and cheaper jampack if needing an x64
http://www.vesalia.de/e_aresone.htm
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I disagree. If you really look at what they've done, they've given you some wallpapers, compiz panoramic graphics, made a system sound theme and a few other things.
Yes. This is about the same work effort as the effort spent by a 13yo kid making an X-Files theme for Microsoft Plus! back in 1996 and uploading it to his AOL homepage. And the result is of about the same quality.
Only this time they needed to hire a "Chief Technology Officer" to manage that and told people they were "developing" an "OS". Big business...
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Yes.
Only this time they needed to hire a "Chief Technology Officer" to manage that and told people they were "developing" an "OS". Big business...
Wanna be. Sometimes I am amazed by number of PROs
New forum has introcuded few new "developers"
CTO
http://forums.commodore.net/member.php?31-Amigatek
CEO
http://forums.commodore.net/member.php?2-digitex
Staff
http://forums.commodore.net/member.php?4-Harry-Cusa
Admin
http://forums.commodore.net/member.php?1-syntek%20http://forums.commodore.net/showthread.php?26-The-man-behind-the-curtain
And there is one moderator (admins and mods are probably unpaid).
That makes 3 maybe employed persons. Now you do understand why sometimes Hyperion looks pro.
I mean, they do admit skinning other distros
http://forums.commodore.net/showthread.php?37-First-Screenshots-of-COS2-F&p=1085#post1085
COS Vision 1 is Ubuntu circa 2010 at least, as it was based on Mint 10 which was a Ubuntu 10.10 remix.
COS Vision 2 is a Mint 13 MATE remix, with the same interface as COS Vision 1. (Which IMHO is still the best UI)
You know, before the rather unneccesary(IMHO) interface schism between the Gnome and Canonical groups.
COS Fusion which is a different Commodore linux flavour looks like it is Gnome 3 based.
If you need to be more bleeding edge, then you will probably find that the ticket.
Welcome to our forums Haywirepc.
As well as AROS story should not be forgotten
http://anticusa.wordpress.com/2012/07/01/commodoreos-beta-9-uses-aros-kickstart/
http://anticusa.wordpress.com/2012/07/20/same-chaper-innovative-by-community-aresone/
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Our small enthusiasts and companies kind of sound PRO and RELIABLE when compared ... as well as INNOVATIVE.
Indeed...hell, even Hyperion looks like the peak of technical wizardry compared to these slackjaws.
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The product is not what we want. We want a successor to the Commodore 64 or 128 which was probably going to be a C-65, run Basic or another language, have Commodore ASCII on the keys, be 80 colums or more, run sprites, have 512K, run at 40 MHZ or more and have new hardware.
We could probably build something like what you're suggesting ourselves.
I have 14 MHz WDC65C812S chips sitting here right now.
SIDs can be emulated (the code only takes up one cog in a Parallax Propeller).
The video generator would be the toughest task to design.
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Doesn't this troll fest belong in a basement subboard?
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Doesn't this troll fest belong in a basement subboard?
Yes, as well as all future of C-USA many, many, many innovations and promises belongs under ground not in rebel sense of words ...
As you do know trolls of trolls fest have all been listed ...
http://anticusa.wordpress.com/commodoreusa-fanboys-n-spammers-list-block-em/
Because anything can be Amiga, and nothing at same time.
http://anticusa.wordpress.com/with-cusa-anything-can-be-amiga/
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Doesn't this troll fest belong in a basement subboard?
Hey Dammy,
Didn't Leo just make a post where he got the name of his company's product wrong?
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I have to agree with Dammy that this thread really belongs in the sub forum for Cusa related stuff.
But just to get my nose in. Their recent business model at the moment seems to be to get people to get into this reseller model. This was confirmed by the guy who did the weak podcast and from stuff on their forums.
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I have to agree with Dammy that this thread really belongs in the sub forum for Cusa related stuff.
But just to get my nose in. Their recent business model at the moment seems to be to get people to get into this reseller model. This was confirmed by the guy who dud the weak podcast and from stuff on their forums.
I agree C-USA spam does belong there. That includes any of their PR too.
There are no listed resellers so far at the website.
http://www.commodoreusa.net/CUSA_Dealers.aspx
Great MLM scheme, just if Barry was Billy Maze ...
Guy that DUD ... nice ... like a French policeman from Allo Allo :-)
Franko did great reinterpretation of that licence
http://anticusa.wordpress.com/2012/06/27/cusa-custom-configurator-programme/
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lol I have been up ages with my newborn. I have corrected the spelling mistake now ;)
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lol I have been up ages with my newborn. I have corrected the spelling mistake now ;)
Congrats on your new born! I hope its better looking than your avatar ;)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haywirepc
I disagree. If you really look at what they've done, they've given you some wallpapers, compiz panoramic graphics, made a system sound theme and a few other things.
Yes. This is about the same work effort as the effort spent by a 13yo kid making an X-Files theme for Microsoft Plus! back in 1996 and uploading it to his AOL homepage. And the result is of about the same quality.
Only this time they needed to hire a "Chief Technology Officer" to manage that and told people they were "developing" an "OS". Big business...
:p
Now that made me laugh out loud.
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And here I was expecting a Seinfeld bit.
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I do like the look of that mini. I just don't think its worth the money. I keep saying if they give me a free one I'll use it though.
I could use a media station, or a video game machine right now.
It would be good for that at least...
And regardless of what anyone thinks, whatever they make with linux is still a hell of alot more useful than an aos4 machine.
Maybe thats why people hate them alot, with little or no actual development effort their offerings far outperform anything AOS has to offer.
Steven
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Maybe thats why people hate them alot, with little or no actual development effort their offerings far outperform anything AOS has to offer.
The reason people hate them is because they don't have any offerings. They just take the credit for other people's work and drag the name of those people through the mud and give them a bad reputation.
They can outperform my Amigas as much as they like, I still get more enjoyment just from turning my Amiga on than their PC will ever give me.
Even in the 90s, the PC far outperformed the Amigas we were using, but it's not performance that matters, is it?
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I don't understand why people keep on comparing Amigaos to Linux. I use Morphos because i want to use an Amiga and vice versa i use Ubuntu because i want to fiddle with Linux (currently having lots of fun figuring out Gnome3). At the end of the day i appreciate both. Why do people keep on trying to merge them together? It's apples to oranges.
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It doesn't seem to be going anywhere, but appears to really annoy a lot of classic Amiga and 64 users. Their market presence and advertising are almost non-existent. (But if you've ever visited their website or Facebook page, you'd swear they were BIGGER than Commodore ever was!)
But the reality is, (outside of this forum, in the real world), you've either heard of them, or you have not, and they don't seem to be doing a thing to change that status. (Honestly, the first I ever heard of them I was actually doing a Google search for mini-ITX boards for a cluster project, and for some reason their website popped up as one of the hits.)
So, what's the deal with them? Is it just another quick buck operation, trying to make whatever they can off the brand name?
One other question: We've all seem them come and go, from Escom to CUSA. This begs the question: Why has it been so difficult to do a successful reboot of this enterprise?
Post Scriptum: My attitude towards that thing they make (all of them) is almost the same as my attitude towards emulators, and I'll say no more on that subject!
:angryfire:
The seem to be doing okay well good on them if they do nothing wrong with that
I like the look the mini and like idea of computer and keyboard combined like the 1200
yes i know there pcs but hell least bit diffrent to what everone esle is floging these days
I whouldint mind buying something from them mind you i rather buy x 1000 or lap top first
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The seem to be doing okay well good on them if they do nothing wrong with that
I like the look the mini and like idea of computer and keyboard combined like the 1200
yes i know there pcs but hell least bit diffrent to what everone esle is floging these days
I whouldint mind buying something from them mind you i rather buy x 1000 or lap top first
Why do you think they're doing ok? I'd say the quite the opposite, actually; they don't seem to be shipping anything at all! The forums are dead, many of the customers are dissatisfied and the "products" are just rebadged products from other companies. They can't be different to what other companies are flogging for the simple reason that they are what other companies are flogging, if you see what I mean. The "mini" is a case made by another company and readily available for about $80 I believe. The AIO machines are also rebadged Chinese makers' machines.
Why would anyone buy from them when you can get identical systems for a quarter the price?
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Amiga 1000 was REVOLUTIONARY in hardware AND OS over anything for a decade FACT, 500 was ugly but bought you the 1000's technology for half the price, 2000 was a monster but still only 8mhz but hey better than EGA PC with crappy sound blaster card or those crappy Apple Macs for £2000 *bletch*
Commodore USA makes pure sh1t full stop, ugly 'Amiga' machines with crippled built in graphics that won't run 2004 'cutting edge' games and well not much better than a £200 netbook. All running on a mildly breathed over copy of Linux Mint distro (which does less for the machine than a copy of XP running a Amiga OS 4 skin in reality and all the inconvenience of using Linux today over Windows gives you) Oh and apart from the C64x all their machines look FA like a the machine they are supposed to be resurrecting too.
You decide where they went wrong? ;)
In fact you can decide with your PayPal accounts when the Amiga 1200PC machines launch from my website.
(and if anybody doesn't like the C= logos on them tough sh1t I won't remove them. FU :) )
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We could probably build something like what you're suggesting ourselves.
I have 14 MHz WDC65C812S chips sitting here right now.
SIDs can be emulated (the code only takes up one cog in a Parallax Propeller).
The video generator would be the toughest task to design.
Can your Parallax Propeller do this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5eU8pHpy-c
The Xmos chip has more power. There are other boards and chips that have more power.
If you guys want to make a computer, help me petition Amiga.org for a forum.
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Can your Parallax Propeller do this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5eU8pHpy-c
The Xmos chip has more power. There are other boards and chips that have more power.
If you guys want to make a computer, help me petition Amiga.org for a forum.
Actually, YES, that's doable AND higher resolutions that can't be done with an Xmos processor because each cog in a Propeller is equipped for video generation.
But I was only suggesting doing I/O, sound, and glue circuits w/o a Prop.
And unless you used multiple chips, I don't think either could handle the kind of video we're talking about.
So why don't we try to build a faster C65?
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Actually, YES, that's doable AND higher resolutions that can't be done with an Xmos processor because each cog in a Propeller is equipped for video generation.
But I was only suggesting doing I/O, sound, and glue circuits w/o a Prop.
And unless you used multiple chips, I don't think either could handle the kind of video we're talking about.
So why don't we try to build a faster C65?
I haven't seen good graphics on the Prop without a CPLD and then it pales in comparison.
The Omap processor in the Beagleboard and Beaglebone from TI is more powerful and can do HDMI video. VGA only has a couple of years more to live before computers go to DVI or HDMI.
Both the Beagleboard and the Raspberri Pi have more power than the Parallax Propeller but don't expect the Raspberri Pi to do the same things as your $800 desktop computer.
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To shorten the story, there is nothing unavail that C-USA offers apart C64x case I would not buy just because of way they conduct bussiness.
And everything is massivly overpriced.
Sadly, instead of lowering the sys price, Linux is abused as faked added value.
An example of anti open source behav.
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So why don't we try to build a faster C65?
So we can run all our favourite C65 software?
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I don't understand why people keep on comparing Amigaos to Linux. I use Morphos because i want to use an Amiga and vice versa i use Ubuntu because i want to fiddle with Linux (currently having lots of fun figuring out Gnome3). At the end of the day i appreciate both. Why do people keep on trying to merge them together? It's apples to oranges.
Part of it's because some people in this community have latched onto Linux as the Last Best Hope for Commodore, because it's A. not related to either of the Mortal Enemies, Microsoft and Apple, B. semi-modernish (really it's a '70s mainframe OS that's been hacked into modernity, as is glaringly obvious anytime you peek under the hood, but don't tell them that,) and C. free. The fact that it has nothing at all to do with the original Amiga OS is apparently less important than those considerations.
The other part is because there's a certain kind of Linux user who takes it for granted that Linux is basically the Platonic ideal of operating systems that other OSes must still be struggling to reach, and that it's only natural for any other OS (like the Amiga OS) to become Linux in its quest for enlightenment. There seem to be fewer of those around here than the first group, but they're still present. (There's a number of them in the Haiku community, too.)
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Ive said before and people got mad, but a linux /base/ for an Amiga os is the only sane option left.
You have access to extremely wide base of hardware, with drivers available, you have access into modern applications etc.
Develop a desktop environment that genuinely feels and functions like a fully featured amiga environment and go from there. Heck, amithlon proved what could have been.
Yeah, it wont satisfy the purists but neither does anything else. So **** 'em.
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Develop a desktop environment that genuinely feels and functions like a fully featured amiga environment and go from there.
Develop a desktop environment that genuinely feels and functions like a fully-featured Amiga environment, and then you'll only be left with all of the underlying structure that feels absolutely nothing like it and also it doesn't run any Amiga software. Yeah, sounds like a plan.
Heck, amithlon proved what could have been.
Except for the part where Amithlon was nothing at all like Linux, sure.
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Develop a desktop environment that genuinely feels and functions like a fully-featured Amiga environment, and then you'll only be left with all of the underlying structure that feels absolutely nothing like it and also it doesn't run any Amiga software. Yeah, sounds like a plan.
I guess this is one of those nebulous "what makes it an amiga" things.
On my end, I don't really care what this or that folder is called, what the file system happens to be called or whether the kernel does this or that.
The user interface and experience on the other hand, is what you engage with every moment you use the machine.
As far as amiga applications, port or emulate. Not really different from the OS4 people. Or build in some sort of compatibility layer like the Mac people did with their switch to Intel. Who knows?
Except for the part where Amithlon was nothing at all like Linux, sure.
It runs on a linux kernel, so I'd say it is entirely like linux. In fact, Im not sure if we're talking about two different things here?
"Linux" is the kernel. People glue all sorts of stuff on top of that, to make the typical desktop experience you get from the various distro's but those are specific examples, not the only possible answer.
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On my end, I don't really care what this or that folder is called, what the file system happens to be called or whether the kernel does this or that.
The user interface and experience on the other hand, is what you engage with every moment you use the machine.
I suppose this is a matter of perspective - if you think BSD with an Apple-designed desktop environment is essentially the same as classic Mac OS, I suppose a similar approach for the Amiga would make sense. The way I see it, though, there's already very little variety in operating systems - there doesn't need to be less, and certainly not by ditching the fundamentals of a perfectly decent existing OS.
As far as amiga applications, port or emulate. Not really different from the OS4 people. Or build in some sort of compatibility layer like the Mac people did with their switch to Intel. Who knows?
Porting isn't that simple, though. Software can be ported between NG Amiga projects fairly easily because they're all based on the same API. Porting to/from a completely different OS like Linux requires quite a bit more work for the same result. A compatibility layer would be peachy, but doing one on Linux would mean reimplementing the whole AmigaOS API anyway.
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I suppose this is a matter of perspective - if you think BSD with an Apple-designed desktop environment is essentially the same as classic Mac OS, I suppose a similar approach for the Amiga would make sense. The way I see it, though, there's already very little variety in operating systems - there doesn't need to be less, and certainly not by ditching the fundamentals of a perfectly decent existing OS.
I agree that more homogeneity (Im pretty sure I spelled that wrong) isn't desirable. The problem is that nothing is moving anywhere. AROS is the furthest ahead and only supports a tiny portion of aging hardware.
If the key to getting /anything/ happening, is to switch to where there's a path ahead, then I think that's the better option today.
Porting isn't that simple, though. Software can be ported between NG Amiga projects fairly easily because they're all based on the same API. Porting to/from a completely different OS like Linux requires quite a bit more work for the same result. A compatibility layer would be peachy, but doing one on Linux would mean reimplementing the whole AmigaOS API anyway.
It might be a ton of work for little gain, compared to simply having a relatively seamless emulation, I suppose.
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Ive said before and people got mad, but a linux /base/ for an Amiga os is the only sane option left.
You have access to extremely wide base of hardware, with drivers available, you have access into modern applications etc.
Develop a desktop environment that genuinely feels and functions like a fully featured amiga environment and go from there. Heck, amithlon proved what could have been.
Yeah, it wont satisfy the purists but neither does anything else. So **** 'em.
It doesnt have to change AmigaOS completely. Some easier porting and components are avail. A better support of PPC Linuxes for Peg2, Efika, AmigaOne, SAMS and X1000 is needed. Dual boot is OK.Some Linux virtual machine for DEB Linux PPC would be nice.
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If I had the money to set up a small computer business, I'd buy the same cases and peripherals that CUSA uses and resell them at far lower prices under the brand name Commode.
I'd offer a choice of OS including AROS, PC Linux OS, PC-BSD, Windows, and maybe Haiku.
I can't imagine it would be any less successful than CUSA.
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If I had the money to set up a small computer business, I'd buy the same cases and peripherals that CUSA uses and resell them at far lower prices under the brand name Commode.
I'd offer a choice of OS including AROS, PC Linux OS, PC-BSD, Windows, and maybe Haiku.
I can't imagine it would be any less successful than CUSA.
Do you have someone you can hire to verbally abuse any parties that might otherwise be interested in your products?
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It seems appropriate to repost something I posted a long time ago, when CUSA showed up first. (based on my old PC :) )
I am now offering a unique offer: The Amitendo64 for only 400 dollars!
Since there have been much talk and fuss about various competing retro computer brands lately, I thought I'd point out the various ways the amitendo64 is superior.
1: Hardware
No atom processors here. You get a good, old fashioned 2.4 ghz dual core, with 4 gigs of RAM.
We even toss in an optical drive, and a mouse!
2: Software
While the competition expects you to install linux yourself, the amitendo64 has it included already!
3: Run all the awesome games
Our competition only includes emulation of commodore machines. We boldly include Nintendo as well. So even if you grew up outside europe, you can still play games from when you were a kid
4: No dubious license questions
Many people feel concerned that competing retro computer offers may take advantage of licenses that have a complicated history. No worries! The Amitendo64 has NO licenses with anybody so you don't have to feel bad about anything!
5: Support of a trusted player in the commodore market
The amitendo64 comes with a full 20 year warranty. Just drive to the Commodore Amiga Iran office and we'll give you a full refund.
6: Doesn't look too new
Many people feel that the competing offers are too shiny, and don't "feel retro".
To insure against this, the amitendo64 is pretty dusty. We even made sure the fan is kind of grimey, so you'll have an authentic experience!
7: More advanced software.
Our unique brand of operating software (codenamed Kubuntu) is actually workbench 5.01 making it far superior than the unreleased alternatives from competing brands!
8: No pre orders
We will ship the amitendo64 to its eager recipient immediately upon payment.
9: Branding
Since we know branding is very important to people, the case will have "COMMODORE AMIGA IRAN" scrawled with a sharpie. No impersonal stickers here!
For mass orders (more than one), there is a 20 minute delay, as that's long it takes me to run over to best buy to restock.
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Heck, amithlon proved what could have been.
Yeah, I've always thought that if I win the lottery (means I have to start playing tho..), I'd be sorely tempted to buy what I needed to and revive Amithlon.
Not because I would expect it to make any money, but just because.. ;-)
Can you imagine a "new" CommodoreUSA (assuming I bought them too; I'm planning on a Powerball huge win for this!!) selling machines in cases that actually looked like Amigas (and I mean LIKE them, not "kind of resembling" them) with a decent motherboard and a fully supported Amithlon OS?
I still think it would lose money, but what a way to lose money!!!!! ;-)
desiv
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I haven't seen good graphics on the Prop without a CPLD and then it pales in comparison.
From one Prop developer board:
"VGA support, build time option for 64 color Parallax compatible mode or extended 256 color mode
working 1024×768 4 color driver, I am adding individual palette entries for each scan line
COMING SOON: 256×192 256 color per pixel gaming mode (expected in 1-2 weeks)
Sprites will be added after initial gaming driver release - 16×16 pixels, 256 color palette"
Remember - This is an $8 chip.
Then there's this:
http://obex.parallax.com/objects/177/
A 1600x1200 VGA tile driver (only uses six out of eight cogs).
So, what resolution can you get with Xmos?
I left the ARM comparisons out because that an apple and oranges situation unless you want to discuss something like the M4 (which I'm will to discuss as I have one on order).
What bug got up your ass?
Two Props could generate VGA, emulate dual SIDs, interface a PS2 keyboard and mouse, generate other I/O and still have the ability to run code.
Yeah, I can get an ARM board that will do more then that, but not one based on about $30 worth of components.
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We're still talking about C-USA?
Man, they shot their wad years ago. Picking nits with C-USA is like beating a cripple.
No press is good press with these vultures - though I did enjoy the death threats I got from them when I "spoke out" about them.
Very Scientology-like, for a Computer Industry Powerhouse (running out of a strip mall, sharing a phone number with a furniture company and massage parlor or something), I must say though.
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Ive said before and people got mad, but a linux /base/ for an Amiga os is the only sane option left.
You have access to extremely wide base of hardware, with drivers available, you have access into modern applications etc.
Develop a desktop environment that genuinely feels and functions like a fully featured amiga environment and go from there. Heck, amithlon proved what could have been.
Yeah, it wont satisfy the purists but neither does anything else. So fuk 'em.
I have to disagree here because i7 is the tip of the smelly dog poo that is humans have run out of talent to make truly faster processors and all we're going to get is more cores on a chip. Linux will soon be left behind as benchmarks with Win 8 beta on the latest 8 core AMD CPUs shows.
There is no solution because nobody has the money to throw down the drain that is making a bespoke ground up x86 Amiga OS. The hardware and the OS have to be designed hand in hand and by the same company. This is never going to happen so no point getting angry, that's just how it turned out. The two most pathetic machines out of 6 incompatible architectures won out, and Apple is only here today due to sales of iBollox otherwise they would have folded by 2000 :)
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The last thing the next gen of Amiga computers needs is a hand-me-down OS like Linux. It also could do without hand-me-down hardware. All innovative and new, from the motherboard up! THAT'S the only way to go.
As far as OSes go, Linux is quite possibly the first (or the last?) refuge of the lazy and unimaginative.
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"As far as OSes go, Linux is quite possibly the first (or the last?) refuge of the lazy and unimaginative."
I don't know man, you have like a bunch of different guis/themes and window managers to choose from, you can run amiga,atari-st, c64,dos, most windows, and linux programs pretty seamlessly with some tweaking....
The ability to run software from a bunch of different systems is nice, and integrating those apps to run point and click with launchers is a nice experience, makes I suppose, the os the program was written for irrevelant,
just point, click, enjoy. It runs everything...
Also, it runs on almost all hardware... Thats nice!
Its only an os for the lazy if you install it as is, you can tweak everything to your liking, (look, feel interface, behavior)
Unimaginative? I've seen some incredibly imaginative linux rigs...
Steven
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I was just thinking that, actually, the system could have a core OS (or really, none at all), allowing the customer to decide what he/she/it wanted to run. That's one possible solution - quite possibly, the best one of all, even if I do say so myself, and I do!
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Unimaginative? I've seen some incredibly imaginative linux rigs...
I agree. Linux can be very interesting if you go beyond the base installs. However I wouldn't call COS Vision and Fusion, they are two competing distros that they are "working" on, imaginative.
I was just thinking that, actually, the system could have a core OS (or really, none at all), allowing the customer to decide what he/she/it wanted to run. That's one possible solution - quite possibly, the best one of all, even if I do say so myself, and I do!
Been bog standard PC's you can run pretty much any OS you wish on there for x86/64 architecture. They even admitted that they couldn't give a rats fuzzy backside about what goes on them once they leave the "factory" and into someone's home.
CUSA are just like your local hardware shop. Except your local hardware store has more choice and doesn't have a brand license to rip you off.
Also, just for the hell of it, someone did post on their forums a better build they did for the "amiga" mini resolving heat issues that CUSA would have run into.
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5R...lJ0YnJYS1laNTg
It's MHT format so you may need a plugin for your browser.
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Iggy,
This is great but it goes against my methodology. How much memory does a cog hold? I don't want my computer have to act like a Gamecube where the disk is constantly spinning to feed the processor. I want all the major memory on the chip. These drivers are great but how much memory are you left over with?
I'm not planning on using the Xmos chip. I looked into it though.
I'm also not planning on using the ARM Cortex chip for video. The ARM Cortex is a chip by chip designers who did real CPU work. There are other video engines for that.
Suppose I want the prop to drive an LCD. You have to transfer 40K:
http://dangerousprototypes.com/2012/09/06/new-prototype-usb-1-8-tft-backpack/
How much memory is left over? That is why ARM looks a lot better in my book.
I would rather use a video engine like the Gameduino:
256 Sprites
512 Colors
12-bit frequency synthesizer
I suppose you could put it on a bigger FPGA and do more stuff.
http://excamera.com/sphinx/gameduino/
I don't want the memory of a Vic-20 or a C-64. I want more memory which is why ARM looks better and I have some help on the internet. When you hook the Prop up to a Nokia or Iphone LCD, I would love to see that.
Chuck
From one Prop developer board:
"VGA support, build time option for 64 color Parallax compatible mode or extended 256 color mode
working 1024×768 4 color driver, I am adding individual palette entries for each scan line
COMING SOON: 256×192 256 color per pixel gaming mode (expected in 1-2 weeks)
Sprites will be added after initial gaming driver release - 16×16 pixels, 256 color palette"
Remember - This is an $8 chip.
Then there's this:
http://obex.parallax.com/objects/177/
A 1600x1200 VGA tile driver (only uses six out of eight cogs).
So, what resolution can you get with Xmos?
I left the ARM comparisons out because that an apple and oranges situation unless you want to discuss something like the M4 (which I'm will to discuss as I have one on order).
What bug got up your ass?
Two Props could generate VGA, emulate dual SIDs, interface a PS2 keyboard and mouse, generate other I/O and still have the ability to run code.
Yeah, I can get an ARM board that will do more then that, but not one based on about $30 worth of components.
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Hi Chuck,
The Prop is very limited when it comes to built in memory.
But I' ve seen it connected to 512K of external memory, SD cards, etc.
And it can be connected to more.
ARM does look more difficult to work with.
The Prop comes in a 40 pin DIP package making it easy to mount.
And there are existing code examples, including LCD drivers.
Of course, there are other choices as well. There are plenty of MCUs other then ARM. Even Coldfire based products.
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The last thing the next gen of Amiga computers needs is a hand-me-down OS like Linux. It also could do without hand-me-down hardware. All innovative and new, from the motherboard up! THAT'S the only way to go.
As far as OSes go, Linux is quite possibly the first (or the last?) refuge of the lazy and unimaginative.
in a world where "custom" means "i changed the wallpaper" and the response to a software crash is to buy a new machine, I'm not sure how your statement makes any lick of sense.
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Re - Gameduino:
I'm confused as to the specs
"video output is 400x300 pixels in 512 colors"
later
"background graphics
512x512 pixel character background"
Huh?
What's the resolution again?
BTW - Pretty neat.
Edit - Just found an Arduino shield to Propeller adapter. Could potentially be used to drive Gameduino.
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This video shows the Gameduino on an Arduino and another Gameduino on a Maple microcontroller which is basically an ARM chip running at 72 MHZ. The DNA is made up of 250 Sprites and you can see the difference between microcontrollers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DhYCXpEgCVs
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Re - Gameduino:
Huh?
What's the resolution again?
BTW - Pretty neat.
Edit - Just found an Arduino shield to Propeller adapter. Could potentially be used to drive Gameduino.
You would have to clarify with James who hasn't been answering his mail.
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in a world where "custom" means "i changed the wallpaper" and the response to a software crash is to buy a new machine, I'm not sure how your statement makes any lick of sense.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If you're suggesting that variety in OSes doesn't matter because people are boring and lazy and have no taste these days, I don't think that's the kind of behavior one ought to make decisions based off of...
I'm confused as to the specs
"video output is 400x300 pixels in 512 colors"
later
"background graphics
512x512 pixel character background"
Haven't looked into the Gameduino much myself, but given its console inspirations, I presume the 512x512 pixel background is a larger playfield out of which the 400x300 actual display is framed?
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This video shows the Gameduino on an Arduino and another Gameduino on a Maple microcontroller which is basically an ARM chip running at 72 MHZ. The DNA is made up of 250 Sprites and you can see the difference between microcontrollers.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=DhYCXpEgCVs
Nice, yet another MCU to look at.
Thanks Chuck.
Your posts and your PMs have been really enlightening.
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I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. If you're suggesting that variety in OSes doesn't matter because people are boring and lazy and have no taste these days, I don't think that's the kind of behavior one ought to make decisions based off of...
We've built entire industries around people having no taste. Why sir, you are almost downright un-american!
Joking aside, what I was getting at, and I do have the linux zealot hat on here for a moment, is that in a market where the two mainstream options (windows and os x) are basically locked down ecosystems with very little possibility for user input, complaining that Linux is the choice of the unimaginative and lazy seems very weird to me.
In the end though, I think there's sort of two different things at stake here.
1: What the hobby community is doing right now
2: Theoretical ideas of how to get a sort of Amiga experience that has any resemblance to the success of the 80's and 90's.
Im not sure those two points converge at all. Of course, maybe they don't have to.
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Joking aside, what I was getting at, and I do have the linux zealot hat on here for a moment, is that in a market where the two mainstream options (windows and os x) are basically locked down ecosystems with very little possibility for user input, complaining that Linux is the choice of the unimaginative and lazy seems very weird to me.
Nah, it isn't an OS for the lazy, it is an OS for the cheap. That's why C-USA picked it, it was free! :p
One thing that puzzles me is whether they have a legal obligation to provide support for their Linux OS in the same way that HP, Dell, etc have to support Windows.
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As far as emulating everything else Windows is now top of the heap IMO.
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As near as I can tell, they tell people to contact mint or ubuntu with problems. Another reason they chose they, no tech support required.
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Nah, it isn't an OS for the lazy, it is an OS for the cheap. That's why C-USA picked it, it was free! :p
One thing that puzzles me is whether they have a legal obligation to provide support for their Linux OS in the same way that HP, Dell, etc have to support Windows.
I...would tend to agree 100% Many here go on about 'how good Linux looks' and how much you can 'tweak it' with wallpapers, screen-savers, and such. That's actually pretty shallow, like putting expensive make-up on a pig!
I'm more interested in INNOVATION, PERFORMANCE, and GROUND-BREAKING TECHNOLOGY, among a few things...
That's why I think that an ideal solution would actually provide maybe 2 or more platforms:
1. Pure Amiga Hardware and OS.
2. Amiga hardware, no OS.
That way, the Linux-havers can have their precious OS, while the rest of us can build a truly astonishing machine! :p
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As near as I can tell, they tell people to contact mint or ubuntu with problems. Another reason they chose they, no tech support required.
I wonder what the Mint people think..
C-USA User: I have a problem with my Commodore OS.
Mint: Your what?
C-USA User: My Commodore OS. I have a problem with it and need help.
Mint: What's that then?
C-USA User: You know, the OS on my new Commodore Amiga.
Mint: Oh, you mean Workbench! I remember that! Just hold down CTRL and the 2 Amiga keys.
C-USA User: I don't have any Amiga keys!
Mint: Why not?
C-USA User: Because I'm running it on Commodore Amiga.
Mint: You're using a PC keyboard with an adapter?
C-USA User: I have a PC keyboard, but I don't need an adapter because this is an Intel PC.
Mint: That's why Workbench won't run on it you dill! Go and buy a copy of Windows and stop bugging us!
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1. Pure Amiga Hardware and OS.
2. Amiga hardware, no OS.
That way, the Linux-havers can have their precious OS, while the rest of us can build a truly astonishing machine! :p
That's kind of the thing though. Nobody is in a position to provide this on anything other than a hobby level and that doesn't seem to be changing.
Morph OS (the one I have the most experience with) is great... if you are coming to it with an Amiga experience in mind. It's hopeless for a mainstream computer user, for a whole host of reasons I won't go into here.
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Joking aside, what I was getting at, and I do have the linux zealot hat on here for a moment, is that in a market where the two mainstream options (windows and os x) are basically locked down ecosystems with very little possibility for user input, complaining that Linux is the choice of the unimaginative and lazy seems very weird to me.
Well, if you compare it to settling for Windows or OSX, I suppose that's true, but I don't know of anybody who does that; people who want a Windows box just buy a Windows box. Whereas Linux is basically the inevitable, omnipresent fallback OS for pretty much any 32-bit hardware project that isn't x86, which is I think where the perception comes from.
(Again, it also has to do with that class of Linux users who think that every OS secretly wants to be Linux and spend their time kibitzing around places like the Haiku forums and perpetually suggesting that it become less like the OS it intends to be like and more like the OS they think it should be. It's easy to see Linux as a sort of ominous, all-engulfing Borg project when you get stuck in a conversation with these people for too long.)
In the end though, I think there's sort of two different things at stake here.
1: What the hobby community is doing right now
2: Theoretical ideas of how to get a sort of Amiga experience that has any resemblance to the success of the 80's and 90's.
Im not sure those two points converge at all. Of course, maybe they don't have to.
I don't think they have to, which is where I differ from a lot of people in the community. I'm all for improving the Amiga experience, but I really don't get and don't at all agree with the notion that this is so important that it means it's worthwhile to abandon anything and everything that made the Amiga interesting in pursuit of it.
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That's kind of the thing though. Nobody is in a position to provide this on anything other than a hobby level and that doesn't seem to be changing.
Morph OS (the one I have the most experience with) is great... if you are coming to it with an Amiga experience in mind. It's hopeless for a mainstream computer user, for a whole host of reasons I won't go into here.
I come from a mainstream background and I have no problem with it.
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I come from a mainstream background and I have no problem with it.
Seems like most claims of "normal people won't get this" just boil down to "people who are expecting Windows and don't want to hear any different won't get this," in my observation...
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This bi-level scheme I propose (currently used by PCs, of course) would serve many purposes:
1. It would allow the new machine (I'm really trying to avoid calling it 'Amiga') to return to the market place, and, more importantly, to a lucrative niche, since buying a 'blank' one would allow the user to do whatever the heck he/she wanted to do with it.
2. This would generate income for...
3. A full return to the sustained development for the platform into the next level of its severely delayed evolution, resuming the same culture of extreme innovation that created it in the first place.
4. The culture can be niche, while the brand could go mainstream. There could be people who buy this thing who honestly never considering doing anything else on it but run Linux (or even Windows), or play old legacy games. This would keep the brand and the name in the market place, and also eventually make it possible...
5. ...for all the innovations in hardware, software, and general use to continue lucratively, and not fall over dead, like all the other attempted reboots. In some crucial way (which I'll save for another thread!) they've all made the same fatal mistakes, one of being forgetting what the Commodore experience was all about in the first place. (The C64 remains the best-selling computer of all time for a reason. If anyone with money who wants to start it up again can't remember why they will surely fail.)
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Seems like most claims of "normal people won't get this" just boil down to "people who are expecting Windows and don't want to hear any different won't get this," in my observation...
Colour me jaded, but I have seen tons of people "switch" to OS X or Linux expecting "windows except minus the bad parts" and switched back promptly because of course that was a path for disaster.
Advocates do a tremendously poor job at setting realistic expectations about what you are getting yourself into.
I'd not feel very comfortable sending something from windows XP to hunting down MUI classes for a 20 year old email app to work ;)
On your previous note, I agree with you that "amiga" in 2012 doesn't have to be a "mainstream" computer thing to be worthwhile. There's a significant faction that feels it should be or can be, and I don't think that's at all plausible given the situation right now. None of the current players have that ability.
That's kinda the point I was getting at earlier, and I think I screwed up explaining it.
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Seems like most claims of "normal people won't get this" just boil down to "people who are expecting Windows and don't want to hear any different won't get this," in my observation...
Ah. That makes a lot of sense. I pre-date GUIs so I don't have too many preconceptions.
The only Windows feature I really like in MorphOS is the right mouse button click.
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I'd not feel very comfortable sending something from windows XP to hunting down MUI classes for a 20 year old email app to work ;)
Why would you want to use a 20 year olde-mail app? don't use an e-mail app?
Actually, Fab toldme how to get Comcast's e-mail working under OWB, so I don't use an e-mail app.
Thanks Fab (you're fab).
Most of the rest of the 68K software I use just works.
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Why would you want to use a 20 year olde-mail app? don't use an e-mail app?
Actually, Fab toldme how to get Comcast's e-mail working under OWB, so I don't use an e-mail app.
Thanks Fab (you're fab).
Most of the rest of the 68K software I use just works.
Fab is pretty wicked.
I happen to really like YAM, so I use it on MOS. My email is a gmail account which works decently (if sometimes a bit quirky) under MOS.
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I'd not feel very comfortable sending something from windows XP to hunting down MUI classes for a 20 year old email app to work ;)
That's true enough, though I'dve thought the NG projects would integrate some of that stuff the way ClassicWB does...
On your previous note, I agree with you that "amiga" in 2012 doesn't have to be a "mainstream" computer thing to be worthwhile. There's a significant faction that feels it should be or can be, and I don't think that's at all plausible given the situation right now. None of the current players have that ability.
Exactly. It seems like a lot of hope and enthusiasm is wasted on pie-in-the-sky dreams of world conquest, which is a shame when there's so much humble but genuinely neat stuff going on right here in the actual real-world present-day Amiga community...
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That's par for the course.
Linux seems to be the 'fall back' OS for everyone looking for a viable alternative to Windows, and also, a cheap one. (My personal tastes is that Linux only exists as a rebellion to the Windows regime. This in and of itself is not bad, or wrong, but when something is created solely for that type of response to something else, then real innovation suffers, since it doesn't seem to have been the original purpose for creating the thing. So, no, I am not a Linux fan for that reason, and a few others.)
"Different for difference sake" is not as good as "different because this new way is better".
Linux also has gained the somewhat dubious reputation of being the 'fast, easy, and cheap' way to go when you need an OS in your device, and you don't want to pay Billy Gates. That entire philosophy leaves a rather bad taste in my mouth, so its not surprising that CUSA would immediately jump on the bandwagon for their OS, after all. You can download it for free, do bare minimum (to no) tweaking, and voila!
Like many here, I enthusiastically sent them a slew of my best ideas, which were promptly ignored - not so much as an acknowledgement of ever having received anything from me. This small snub (not even an auto-responder?) seems to set the tone for what they want, and what they're after.
We won't have to worry about them much longer. In the immortal words of Bones, "I think he's dead, Jim." just about describes where they'll be this time next year, if not sooner.
You forgot that Linux is much more stable than Windows, and is what most of the servers in the world use everyday. I work for a telephone company, and we are also an internet company, and do digital video over ethernet via fiber to the home. This provides a 1 gb connection to each home. Every server we use (many) runs Linux. I see how stable it is everyday at work, that is why I run it at home as well. I am submitting this reply from my Linux PC. Windows has its place, and I run XP under Virtualbox on my Linux PC. I like Windows XP, which is why I still use it from time to time. At one time, I ran W7 and put XP on a VirtualBox machine under W7, and it did nothing but crash. I am not dissing Windows, like I said, it has its place, but Linux is superior IMHO, which is why most people use it on their servers. Don't even get me started on W8. :)
But, to get back on subject, I have used Commodore OS Vision, under VirtualBox on my machine, and I like it. I wouldn't buy from them, as they are way overpriced. You could get a heck of a nice machine for what they are asking for their hardware. I don't really care for how they are doing things, as I cut my teeth on Commodore hardware years ago. I have only been using Amigas for around a year or less, simply because I couldn't afford one back in the day. I was really excited when I heard that Commodore was coming back, but, this is not my Commodore...that company is long gone. These people have no interest in us, or any of the Commodore/Amiga geeks. That, I think will be one of their downfalls.
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Let's just forget about Linux for the sake of this conversation. I am one of many that feel that the OS actually has no place on a 'real' Amiga-style platform.
A proper reboot and re-introduction of this technology practically DEMANDS its own OS for the flagship machine. (The so-called 'blank' machines of the line, however, can run whatever or nothing, anything from full-blown Windows, to even a 32-64 bit version of DOS).
Let's agree to drag Linux, (its merits and/or lack thereof) out of the conversation simply because its not what most of us want - which is a native Amiga hardware platform (no Intel guts!) running a native Amiga OS.
This is, of course, exactly opposite of what CUSA offers, Intel guts running Linux.
How is that an Amiga? Its not, its an expensive emulator, which, actually, either one of us could build ourselves a whole lot cheaper than what they're asking for. (Again, reference the link from my very first post that started this thread - the Maximum PC article on doing your own pc-in-a-commodore 64 chasis.)
I'll forget everything I currently feel about that venerable OS, and pretend that its the best OS in the world! (That was hard for me!) I would still have to say it has no place on a new Amiga platform.
I refuse to believe that the Human Race can't come up with another third OS solution to compete with Linux and Windows.
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The original OS for the A1000 didn't start out as an OS for Amiga.
I don't see why we should hold anything new to a higher standard.
QNX is perfectly adequate.
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The original OS for the A1000 didn't start out as an OS for Amiga.
I don't see why we should hold anything new to a higher standard.
QNX is perfectly adequate.
Wow. I totally and very civilly disagree, for more reason than I can list here! :python:
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The original OS for the A1000 didn't start out as an OS for Amiga.
Correct me if I'm wrong, someone, but yes it did. The original version of AmigaDOS was based on TripOS, but the other components (Exec and the other libraries, not to mention Workbench) were developed specifically for the Amiga. Certainly the project as a whole wasn't designed for some other computer and then hacked to support the Amiga because Commodore just happened to need something to run on it.
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RJ Mical coded Intuition.library specifically for the Amiga.
Graphics.library was coded specifically for the Amiga.
Diskfont.library was coded specifically for the Amiga.
OFS was coded specifically for the Amiga.
Carl Sassenrath coded Exec.library specifically for the Amiga.
etc. etc. etc. (I leave it to others to type other examples)
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What needs to be done is to build a new AmigaOS on top of a Linux or BSD foundation à la OS X.
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What needs to be done is to build a new AmigaOS on top of a Linux or BSD foundation à la OS X.
For the life of me, I still don't understand why Linux 'needs' to be a part of the core system at all.
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Because if you want mainstream penetration, 800 dollar machines barely cracking 1 ghz, or 10 year old mac's aren't going to cut it.
And that's the biggest barrier to anything except "pretty neat hobby": hardware.
Sure, someone could come along, whip up a range of good, supported hardware with a supported OS and applications but by then, our robot overlords will have harvested all our brains anyways.
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5. ...for all the innovations in hardware, software, and general use to continue lucratively, and not fall over dead, like all the other attempted reboots. In some crucial way (which I'll save for another thread!) they've all made the same fatal mistakes, one of being forgetting what the Commodore experience was all about in the first place. (The C64 remains the best-selling computer of all time for a reason. If anyone with money who wants to start it up again can't remember why they will surely fail.)
The Raspberri Pi is taking off where Amiga users won't. The Raspberri Pi has its own magazine and is being kited by people in England who remember BBC Basic and want to teach their own kids computers. Now if some company produces a computer for you, you have to compete against the Raspberri Pi crowd. They already have a head start and you will be hard pressed to pull users away from their machines.
You all want a big company to come along and take care of you. It hasn't happened. I regret buying the Amiga. I felt that Commodore would always be here and take care of us and I couldn't compete against Commodore. I had the opportunity to buy eprom programmers and build my own 6502 computer back then but I didn't have money for both Amiga and development and now some books and parts are scarce and more expensive.
You seem to forget that Commodore was a hobby interest of a few engineers at Commodore before they bought MOS. When the users here want to start a hobby initiative and have a product, maybe you can get a company interested in it or you can start your own company.
Why is a company going to invest in the computer you want? You have no track record of interest. You don't generate any sales. Why would a company choose to build for you? Maybe what non-engineers can build for you is not what you are willing to buy or tinker with.
You have to support an open hardware initiative and show people you are serious. The reason you aren't going to buy a new computer is because you aren't willing to play with microcontrollers, chips, hardware and other devices today. If you won't play with them today then how can you consider yourself the programmer of yesterday who used peek and poke?
You need to petition Amiga dot org for a forum for this purpose. Call it "New Hardware Initiative".
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'Can't', 'won't', and 'don't' are delimiters, which I almost never use when discussing possible future projects, especially theoretical ones. If you start limiting yourself before you even start, what happens is you never start.
Another mistake is letting current market trends dictate innovation. That's not innovation that's emulation. And the market, of course, is fickle.
I get the impression that most people who participate in blogs like these are not your average users. Most of us build our own, program our own, and repair our own, not only these 20+ year old machines, but also our PCs, whatever OS they run.
I would also venture to guess that most of us don't wait for the vendors or computer companies to add new features to our machines - we do it ourselves whenever and where ever possible.
If enough of the right people can do that for their own machines, why would they limit themselves to 'what the mass market will allow' when considering a new project?
Consider: The Commodore family of computers is over 20 years old. Yet dozens of forums just like this one exist, and have existed continuously for all that time, with new members being added to each one everyday. Almost all of them are comprised of PCs users also running Windows and/or Linux. There's your target market right there, if anyone would care to look.
Why talk about 'competing' with Raspberry Pi? I actually have a number of them, and at no time since pre-ordering mine way back in February or March did I even consider that this device would compete with my existing home network to the point where it would supplant them. (By the way, its nothing but a really small PC.) I instead added it to my general interest and hardware pool. I didn't stop spending money on PCs, or stop using them. Why would I? Its 'and', not 'either or'. The 'market' is not one mass, homogeneous entity, it consists of a conglomeration of various types of users who often overlap with their interests and their dollars.
Pretending that Linux is the only way a new machine (or company built around it) can survive is like saying a). That no new OSes will ever exist after Windows and Linux, and we're basically stuck with them forever, and that b). Without Linux any and every new venture is totally lost (so thank God somebody created it, and finally, c). Nobody is smart enough, creative enough, or intuitive enough to create a totally new OS from scratch. I think the original founding fathers of the Amiga and the Commodore 64 would vehemently disagree.
Finally, I feel like I'm beating a dead (fill in your favorite punchline here!). In a previous post, I already pointed out that, to take full advantage of pre-concieved notions of 'market dollars', there could be a blank machine which would feed off of that market (and basically running whatever the customer wanted, be it Windows or Linux or DOS), along with the core Amiga machine, which would run pure Amiga-style hardware and OS software.
If its not against the forum rules, I'll quote one of my own previous posts:
This bi-level scheme I propose (currently used by PCs, of course) would serve many purposes:
1. It would allow the new machine (I'm really trying to avoid calling it 'Amiga') to return to the market place, and, more importantly, to a lucrative niche, since buying a 'blank' one would allow the user to do whatever the heck he/she wanted to do with it.
2. This would generate income for...
3. A full return to the sustained development for the platform into the next level of its severely delayed evolution, resuming the same culture of extreme innovation that created it in the first place.
4. The culture can be niche, while the brand could go mainstream. There could be people who buy this thing who honestly never considering doing anything else on it but run Linux (or even Windows), or play old legacy games. This would keep the brand and the name in the market place, and also eventually make it possible...
5. ...for all the innovations in hardware, software, and general use to continue lucratively, and not fall over dead, like all the other attempted reboots. In some crucial way (which I'll save for another thread!) they've all made the same fatal mistakes, one of being forgetting what the Commodore experience was all about in the first place. (The C64 remains the best-selling computer of all time for a reason. If anyone with money who wants to start it up again can't remember why they will surely fail.)
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While Linux is my operating system of choice, not for my Amiga. I wonder why someone doesn't just continue where Commodore left off. Develop AmigaOS to a modern operating system. If this is AROS or MOS, great, I have to say, I have never used either, so I know nothing about them. Are they based on the old AmigaOS? I am not smart enough to do any of this, but I know based on reading posts on this board that there are people on here that are smart enough. Like I said, I am a Linux man, but, why does everything have to be Linux or Windows, or even Mac? I love my Amiga, but, I don't want to run Linux on it. If I did, I don't need it, I already have several modern PC's running that OS. I like the Amiga because it is unique. I do like the Commodore OS Vision, but not as an operating system for an Amiga, but, as a Linux theme that has a cool look related to something I love, Commodore. But, not for my Amiga. Like I said, I know nothing about AROS or MOS, but, if these ARE OSes that are based on Amiga, I want learn about them. I am a newbie here, but have come to love everything Amiga, and have always loved my 8 bit Commodore stuff. There are already people on here that have come up with great looking retro cases, which is basically all CUSA is doing. I guess maybe there just isn't enough people willing to buy a PC that isn't based on the OSes that have become mainstream. This is sad. There are a lot of us, that if given a chance, would buy a new REAL Amiga, if anyone made one. But when compared to the numbers who buy "mainstream" PCs for surfing, email, and such, I just don't think anyone will because of money. It is going to have to be done, by people like the ones on this forum, in the way Linux was developed. It would be a great thing.
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What you'd need is:
A hardware platform (this means chips, processors, video, audio, all the junk that goes into it)
(made by who ? What chips? What manufacturers?)
An operating system to run it on.
(by who? What kernel? What will set it apart?)
A software/application framework around it.
(from who? Which companies will invest?)
Interoperability with various established standards to permit the machine to actually be usable in todays world.
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. There are a lot of us, that if given a chance, would buy a new REAL Amiga, if anyone made one. But when compared to the numbers who buy "mainstream" PCs for surfing, email, and such, I just don't think anyone will because of money.
Problem is everyone has their own definition on what an "Amiga" is. If it's exotic closed source chip designs that beats the current market leaders, it's not going to see the light of day, too much has changed in nearly 30 years of hardware evolution. What is the past with 68K systems belong in the past, we need to look to the future with what reasonable technology that has a reasonable price tag. As far as the OS is concern, we need a basically new one that still has the flavor of our beloved Amiga used but fully capable to survive and thrive in the modern market place.
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Right now the market is stagnant - every new release is just a re-invention of a very old wheel.
We're stuck with 2 video card manufacturers, 2 processor makers (there's some overlap there with ATI/AMD), and two, maybe three OSes, if you count Apple stuff.
This must change. This will change. May as well be Amiga. If not Amiga, it will still happen, and it won't be more of the same. That defies the definition of the word 'change'.
The Amiga line was originally defined from that need for change and innovation. It can be so again.
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If it's exotic closed source chip designs that beats the current market leaders,
then amiga with ECS or AGA are not amiga because ECS and AGA were outdated and far behind mac in 1990 and mac,pc in 1992.
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then amiga with ECS or AGA are not amiga because ECS and AGA were outdated and far behind mac in 1990 and mac,pc in 1992.
Every computer/console that commodore made with an Amiga logo is an Amiga. The Amiga Technologies 1200 & 4000T are also Amiga's because they were pretty much the same as the commodore ones as they were made from left over parts and the old designs.
AmigaOS 4 can run on Amiga's with a PPC board, but it can also run on non Amiga hardware. For example the X1000 is an AmigaOne, not an Amiga. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AmigaOS_4#Compatible_hardware
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then amiga with ECS or AGA are not amiga because ECS and AGA were outdated and far behind mac in 1990 and mac,pc in 1992.
With AGA's release, we were way behind the power curve by then. ECS wasn't too far off from the rest of what was considered consumer gfx capabilities in that price range.
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I think AGA was less the issue than sheer processing power, honestly.
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The raspberry pi's success shows that a small, low resource computer with different architecture than the mainstream can be very profitable.
The problem is, designing, prototyping and manufacturing costs a great deal, in
both time and resources. CUSA isn't going to actually invest a great deal of
time or resources into such a venture.
Dumping linux on a standard pc with CUSA wallpapers is alot easier. But go
try and source parts to build 100's of pcs the same way. Even that is not easy.
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The raspberry pi's success shows that a small, low resource computer with different architecture than the mainstream can be very profitable.
The problem is, designing, prototyping and manufacturing costs a great deal, in
both time and resources. CUSA isn't going to actually invest a great deal of
time or resources into such a venture.
Dumping linux on a standard pc with CUSA wallpapers is alot easier. But go
try and source parts to build 100's of pcs the same way. Even that is not easy.
I...wouldn't call it a success just yet, more time is needed. They had some serious launch problems, and shipping was nightmarish. If these types of trends continue, they could go the way of the do-do bird...or Commodore.
And, again, its just a PC, a really small PC.
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And, again, its just a PC, a really small PC.
No it isn't. It's an ARM SoC-based system, look it up. It is running Linux, but there is at least a RISC OS port underway, efforts to get AROS running are in progress (though last I checked it's still running it from a Linux base,) and who knows what else will happen in the future...
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I think they really underestimated the level of demand too. Happens to a lot of kickstarter projects too.
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No it isn't. It's an ARM SoC-based system, look it up. It is running Linux, but there is at least a RISC OS port underway, efforts to get AROS running are in progress (though last I checked it's still running it from a Linux base,) and who knows what else will happen in the future...
I actually have a couple sitting underneath my 'Next Project' pile. I was one of the first to sign up for pre-shipping at the beginning of the year. Who knows? If I ever get done repairing and tweaking my various PCs, notebooks, A2000s, A500s and 64s, I may even get to it. :hammer:
ON THE OTHER HAND, I still think that its possible to do a completely new roll-out of an alternative system, based on new hardware and software. Its going to happen, whether its an Amiga reboot, or not.
For every 10 people who say 'It can't be done', there are always a few who somehow make the impossible possible and they make it work. Most successful companies start out that way - by creating their own niche and then creating the demand.
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ON THE OTHER HAND, I still think that its possible to do a completely new roll-out of an alternative system, based on new hardware and software.
I'm not arguing that - I'm just saying that calling the Pi a "small PC" is doing a disservice to the scope, direction, and goals of the whole project.
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I'm not arguing that - I'm just saying that calling the Pi a "small PC" is doing a disservice to the scope, direction, and goals of the whole project.
Point taken.
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What you'd need is:
A hardware platform (this means chips, processors, video, audio, all the junk that goes into it)
(made by who ? What chips? What manufacturers?)
There are a number of chip manufactuers. All you really need to design a chip is some cad software. Parallax uses a program called Laker and the license for it is something like $45K or so but the program has its limits and needs to be upgraded.
Here are a list of chip makers:
http://www.edn-europe.com/microdirectory.asp
Western Design Center is still in business but Amiga users can't really prove they're interested because you don't have dedicated users towards building a new machine, you don't have a forum or forum resources devoted to building a new machine, etc.
There are a lot of foundries overseas where companies like Microchip and Ti make their chips. You all just don't know off the top of your heads because you haven't spent enough time looking for them. Cars have 23 computers in them or more so someone overseas is making them and if you found out who they are, they could make your chips for you.
Any mods want to have a discussion?
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There are a number of chip manufactuers. All you really need to design a chip is some cad software. Parallax uses a program called Laker and the license for it is something like $45K or so but the program has its limits and needs to be upgraded.
Here are a list of chip makers:
http://www.edn-europe.com/microdirectory.asp
Western Design Center is still in business but Amiga users can't really prove they're interested because you don't have dedicated users towards building a new machine, you don't have a forum or forum resources devoted to building a new machine, etc.
There are a lot of foundries overseas where companies like Microchip and Ti make their chips. You all just don't know off the top of your heads because you haven't spent enough time looking for them. Cars have 23 computers in them or more so someone overseas is making them and if you found out who they are, they could make your chips for you.
Any mods want to have a discussion?
That's very interesting! I've often wanted to design my own chips - in software of course - and run simulations of executions. I've also toyed with the idea of designing my own motherboards in the same fashion. I even came up with what I thought was a viable dual-motherboard system. I'd like to know more about this software, for sure!
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Correct me if I'm wrong, someone, but yes it did. The original version of AmigaDOS was based on TripOS
Exactly.
I never said the OS wasn't developed for Amiga, just that it didn't start out that way.
The whole argument is ridiculous though, as the machine itself was originally supposed to be a game console.
It was never some idealistic crusade to create the perfect computer.
It's a footnote in the history of computing, and it will never be anything more than a hobby for the nostalgic.
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Exactly.
I never said the OS wasn't developed for Amiga, just that it didn't start out that way.
Except that every part of it other than the filesystem/CLI most certainly did...
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Sure, but it all had to start somewhere. Are you saying that the stuff that was brought in from outside the project came after they developed the components you mentioned?
I thought it was the other way around, but of course my memory of these things is fuzzy.
If someone wanted to make an Amiga-inspired system today, what would they have to do to be true to the 'spirit' of the platform?
The hardware obviously has to be a combination of a capable and cheap off-the-shelf CPU and a custom chipset that is a multimedia powerhouse.
The OS has to be built from the ground up for that specific hardware and be very efficient and responsive, giving the UI the highest priority.
But how much would it resemble the original Amiga? Would the same design choices that made sense in the early 80s be appropriate today?
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Chuck had a good point.
And not only is WDC still around, but they promoting FPGA use (they have a design based on one that supercedes the 65C816).
I don't know that FPGAs are fast enough for the main processor (they could aid in an accurate emulation of the 68K), but FPGAs and other programmable logic could be used for video, I/O, and glue circuitry.
Its quite possible for an individual (or a group) to design a powerful new system without custom chips.
We could set up a forum right here for proposals, interaction, and cooperative development. If its not a commercial product, no one claiming IP property rights could stop us from developing it.
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What makes me laugh is people think the Great Wall original, which is rebranded as Vic Slim, is been ripped-off in other places and by Ubuntu.
http://forums.commodore.net/showthread.php?780-vic-slim-rippoff-on-omg-ubuntu
vic slim rippoff on omg ubuntu
I was going throught my daily linux reads and I found this http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/09/m...tu-keyboard-pc (http://www.omgubuntu.co.uk/2012/09/meet-the-ubuntu-keyboard-pc) I almost fell off the couch(http://forums.commodore.net/images/smilies/eek.png)
Made me laugh that they buy into the crap so much that they are willing to beleive that CUSA are the only one's able to sell this.
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Its quite possible for an individual (or a group) to design a powerful new system without custom chips.
We could set up a forum right here for proposals, interaction, and cooperative development. If its not a commercial product, no one claiming IP property rights could stop us from developing it.
The other option that occurred to me was to ask Great Valley Products. Just look at the board in that photo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Valley_Products
Anyone with the talent to build a 40 MHZ accelerator certainly has the ability to build a computer that is worth our time. Amiga users should have the moxy to sign a petition and ask them!!!
They are still in business, they make an impressive product and here is their website:
http://www.gvp-m.com/
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I'm all for new custom chips and boards, and technologies. Opens up an entire new world of capabilities.
On another note: Didn't know that GVP was still around! Glad to hear it! I wonder what other third-party hardware providers for the Amiga are still kicking? I know Newtek is still in existence, but who else?
And what of the Amiga's original developers and system programmers?
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The other option that occurred to me was to ask Great Valley Products. Just look at the board in that photo:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Valley_Products
Anyone with the talent to build a 40 MHZ accelerator certainly has the ability to build a computer that is worth our time. Amiga users should have the moxy to sign a petition and ask them!!!
They are still in business, they make an impressive product and here is their website:
http://www.gvp-m.com/
GVP-M is not the same company.
They just hold the right to the hardware.