Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: matt3k on August 28, 2012, 02:38:54 AM
-
I just purchased a Mercury SSD 60 GB drive and the Acard ARS-2000SUP SATA to SCSI adapter.
I get a unit is not a disk (type 3) when I read the drive in hdtoolbox.
I have it hooked up to my warp engine. I have tried turning on Parity via the acard.
Sometimes it doesn't see the drive. I have tried 3 different hd tool boxes , 3.1, 3.9, and the one that came with the warp engine.
The 3.1 version is the only one I can get into read the drive and give the error, the warp engine refuses to see it, 3.9 won't let you select the drive stating it isn't required type.
Any ideas???
-
SDD's are fairly new, Is there a firmware upgrade for the ACard adapter? it might require a firmware fix to detect the drive.
I just checked the compatibility list for SDD's the Mercury drive is not listed, it also appears that the ACard Firmware hasn't been updated since 2010.
-
Has nothing to do with the SSD, they are backward compatible (but Amy's have no trim control) with regular drives and work fine if you want to use them (for a task that is overkill). I suspect the fault lies in the Acard device. I'm not familiar with the one you have, only the 7720 SCSI to IDE. The info sheet on the ARS-2000SUP says it is an Ultra (?wide) SCSI Interface, that the firmware may need to be modified, and to check the compatibility list for supported SATA drives; under SSD's your OWC Mercury drive is not listed. Whew!
I just use a Acard 7720u/w with a $5 IDE to SATA interface and everything works. I get my Acards from Mech's site for ~ $100 and Mech can flash the correct firmware for you. Mech is an expert and either loves to help or does a fine job of pretending; give him 24-hours for an email response
As far as an SSD, I got one when NewEgg had a sale, plugged into everything, took speed ratings, decided it was better of in my Toshiba notebook and left it there.
Don't F--- with the parity, it is what helps define SCSI 1 from SCSI 2 (along with other good stuff like sync).
In summary, try emailing Mech (Mike) for his opinion, but if Acard says you drive is not compatible, you could take up the issue with them
-
Thanks for all the help. Silly, I thought it would have worked as easy as other adapters I have used for mating different technologies. Especially since mousehouse reviewed one on this site... http://www.amiga.org/forums/showthread.php?t=59096
Lesson learned.
The OWC drives auto trim in firmware, that why I have been using them.
I will try Mechware, he has been great help in the past, that is a great idea thank!
-
Here is what I have learned:
- Acard adapter has the latest bios.
- Acard and Mercury SSD work fine together in my pc via PC SCSI Card.
- Neither Warp Engine SCSI or A3000 SCSI even see the device anymore.
- Tried almost every combination on the Acard to get it recognized except The WE jumpers.
To my logic since:
- Mousehouse got this device working in his 3k
- The Acard and SSD work in a pc
It should therefore work...
Mech suggested I get the patch from aminet for optical drives and HDToolbox. I will test that.
Any ideas out there???
-
Mech would be the expert, but I just have a feeling it is your Acard device. Pick up an IDE-to-SATA adapter and try it without your Acard using an Amiga IDE interface. My OCZ 128GB SSD showed up on every interface I threw at it: the A4000's IDE (Native), the built-in A4091, the CSPPC, and a Silicon Image 3112 based controller on the Mediator in OS 4.1. I found that a real UW320 15K HDD (Atlas II with SCA 80 interface) was quick as or quicker than the SSD, which is why I put the SSD in my laptop.
Barring those options, lend it to someone you trust who can test it in a different Amiga environment (setup). If you fail to find someone you trust, you can send it to me and I'll test it (and, yes return it); I still wouldn't trust me
-
All modern drives (Just over a year) have 4k clusters instead of 512 bytes. SSDs have had this for a while, not sure which ones are 512 bytes.
I would assume this makes them incompatible with any older OS.
-
All modern drives (Just over a year) have 4k clusters instead of 512 bytes. SSDs have had this for a while, not sure which ones are 512 bytes.
I would assume this makes them incompatible with any older OS.
I've not found that to be the case, new drives are compatible with older OS's; plus you can change the cluster from 512 up 32K during the install/format process. I've hooked up an SATA 1TB hard drive to my Amiga without any problem, as well as the OCZ SSD as stated above.
-
I've not found that to be the case, new drives are compatible with older OS's; plus you can change the cluster from 512 up 32K during the install/format process. I've hooked up an SATA 1TB hard drive to my Amiga without any problem, as well as the OCZ SSD as stated above.
I've had reports from a good few people that they simply cannot get some SSD's to work, Unfortunately i dont have a list of what does and what does not. I am guessing its a firmware on some SSD's and i doubt the issue can be fixed. Regular HD's dont seem to ever have this problem.
I've been talking with matt and he's been through all the normal stuff of changing scsi cables etc to eliminate most trouble.
Last thing i suggested was to plug in a regular ide hd into the acard setup and verify it on the amiga. that should tell if its a compatibility problem.
-
Here is what I have learned:
- Acard adapter has the latest bios.
- Acard and Mercury SSD work fine together in my pc via PC SCSI Card.
- Neither Warp Engine SCSI or A3000 SCSI even see the device anymore.
- Tried almost every combination on the Acard to get it recognized except The WE jumpers.
To my logic since:
- Mousehouse got this device working in his 3k
- The Acard and SSD work in a pc
It should therefore work...
Mech suggested I get the patch from aminet for optical drives and HDToolbox. I will test that.
Any ideas out there???
Mfgs change firmwares in stuff constantly,so it may be why his ssd works and yours does not. You can barely count on getting 2 devices that are identical even if the part numbers match these days firmware wise-case in point see how many flash versions there were for the Acard.
You say the amiga recognized it before but not now? Smacks of a bad scsi cable. Do you have term power(not the same as termination) enabled on the Acard? its a long shot but maybe your A3000 has the term power diode backwards-many had this problem from the factory(pin 25 on the external scsi connector should have +5v).Enabling term power on the acard might help. Be sure the acard has termination on also.
The patch for optical disks will most likely do no good, since you dont have the same error(iirc its type7 for removables ?) it was just a shot in the dark.
test a regular ide HD or cf adapter and cf on it to verify the combo works.
-
Or send it to someone who can check it out fully from an Amiga perspective
-
Never had an issue with a SSD in any of my Amiga systems, which include a MOS Mini, an A1200 (both IDE SSD drives), and dual 32 GB SATA SSD's in my SAM.
-
Never thought this would have been an issue since mousehouse reviewed it and since the work perfect together in a pc. If a pc SCSI card can read the disk through the Acard perfectly, I really would have thought it would work perfect in the Amiga...
Doesn't make sense, everytime I got a drive to work in a pc in the past it always would work in an Amiga... But it doesn't work so go figure...
I'm not sure sending the duo to anyone will bring different results, if someone can give me a reason why there Amiga SCSI or Warp Engine SCSI is different then mine, I'm game...
I have another mercury SSD in my powerbook running MOS and she is fine. The other drive is a PATA not a SATA though. Perhaps Amiga based SCSI isn't compatible with Acards conversion of this particular drive???
-
I'd go with Mech in this case; i believe that he is an expert in these things. He can also sell you an Acard 7720 as well as put new firmware in them. Maybe you can convince him to pin down the problem between the card and the drive.
-
Quick update...
I tried a Sata hard disk to see if would be recognized on either controller without any luck.
The cables work with good old fashion scsi hd's so I know they work.
I can put my ide controller in to see if I can read a ide drive but I don't see a point in it.
Anyone out there have a sata ssd drive in an Amiga 3000 or warp engine out there?
-
Late reply warning!
Yes I had the Acard running in my 3000D, worked fine. However, there are some drives that do not work I found out. Presumably there is a drive compatibility list at the Acard website. I have an 160GB 7200rpm Seagate that works fine, and an 80G which doesn't (found out after swapping them).
The Acard works fine on my A4060DT... as I also have a WE I can give it a go. Have not tested any SSD's, don't have them either.
I need to get my 3000D sorted anyway, will give it a go.
-
@mousehouse
Thanks for the reply and the great review.
The drives you tested and didn't work, did they even show on the SCSI bus? I have tried only one SATA Hard disk and my mercury SATA SSD, neither show up in the SCSI inquiry.
The work just dandy with the Acard in a pc though...
-
Never thought this would have been an issue since mousehouse reviewed it and since the work perfect together in a pc. If a pc SCSI card can read the disk through the Acard perfectly, I really would have thought it would work perfect in the Amiga...
Doesn't make sense, everytime I got a drive to work in a pc in the past it always would work in an Amiga... But it doesn't work so go figure...
I'm not sure sending the duo to anyone will bring different results, if someone can give me a reason why there Amiga SCSI or Warp Engine SCSI is different then mine, I'm game...
I have another mercury SSD in my powerbook running MOS and she is fine. The other drive is a PATA not a SATA though. Perhaps Amiga based SCSI isn't compatible with Acards conversion of this particular drive???
Its not a scsi issue, its a acard firmware issue more than likely, as stated the acard scsi to ide bridges are not compatible with everything out there and the firmwares came out long before many pata SSD's.
mech
-
@mechy
I don't think it is a firmware issue since my PC with a PCI SCSI card recognized my mercury SATA SSD without any problems. So I know the combination works. So the issue has to be with the Amiga's.
Windows Vista could see the full capacity and I could have formatted it. I can't think what the difference would be from my PCI LSI SCSI card and the ones on the Amiga, but that is where the issue has to be to my thinking...
-
I'm afraid not all SCSI controllers use the same Integrated Circuit controller chips nor the same firmware. This exists outside the Amiga world to that of the PC and Mac. Others in this forum have different hardware, and might be able to pin down your issue. But there are two reasons to accept that you cannot use your Mercury SSD on your A3000D and your Warp Engine: an SSD is overkill for the Amiga, the speed doesn't matter because the interface will always limit it, CF cards are just as quiet and cheaper, and the amount of storage is more than any Amiga setup will ever use. Secondly, the Amiga is a 20+ year old machine and very few other 20+ year old computers can still keep up with what the Amiga can still handle at her age: USB, Internet/Web access, PCI graphic cards, and others.
Find a good use for your hardware and try to enjoy it. Many people just trash old computers and move on.
-
I'm afraid not all SCSI controllers use the same Integrated Circuit controller chips nor the same firmware. This exists outside the Amiga world to that of the PC and Mac. Others in this forum have different hardware, and might be able to pin down your issue. But there are two reasons to accept that you cannot use your Mercury SSD on your A3000D and your Warp Engine: an SSD is overkill for the Amiga, the speed doesn't matter because the interface will always limit it, CF cards are just as quiet and cheaper, and the amount of storage is more than any Amiga setup will ever use. Secondly, the Amiga is a 20+ year old machine and very few other 20+ year old computers can still keep up with what the Amiga can still handle at her age: USB, Internet/Web access, PCI graphic cards, and others.
Find a good use for your hardware and try to enjoy it. Many people just trash old computers and move on.
Thanks for the nice advice... I already use my Amiga for many functions and enjoy it...
I agree with the overkill, but anything except CF will be overkill for my amiga. I had a quantum atlas 10k drive, not because it was overkill but because I could buy it brand new and it would provide years of trouble free operation. The atlas lastest for 10 years and was on for most of it's life and most importantly gave the most speed that my controller could handle...
I have old scsi drive lying around but they are all 20 years old and are bound to be problems many of than give almost 8mb/second for throughput but I don't want headaches.
The only reason I didn't go with CF is that they can't give me 8mb/s and I enjoy the speed of the WE SCSI. If anyone can point me to CF that gives that kind of speed, I will give it a try.
To you last point I must agree, this device seems to have broken the SCSI standard. I will contact the manufacturer to see what might be done. This is the first time in history that I have every found the scsi standard broken. Goes to show what a great standard it is...
I will try locating older sata drives to see if they can be detect on the scsi bus, but I have a feeling that even a incompatible drive would still be listed with a scsi inquiry...
Regards,
-
Its not a scsi issue, its a acard firmware issue more than likely, as stated the acard scsi to ide bridges are not compatible with everything out there and the firmwares came out long before many pata SSD's.
mech
Thanks Mech! I have to agree at this point that is must be firmware. Really strange though that a scsi inquiry doesn't list anything on the amiga...
I will contact the manufacturer and see what happens... Funny that an old LSI scsi controller reads it find and the Amiga's won't. To my logic a scsi inquiry is universal and is impossible to break, apprarently they broke it if an amiga's attached to it... wierd...
-
I am a poor reference I'm afraid because I've used an older 80GB and a current 1TB SATA on every thing from a GVP-II in my A2000, to my A4000T's A4091, IDE, and Sii3114IDE device (on the PCI Mediator) under OS 4.1; mind you I used an Acard 7720 & IDE->SATA as adapters to try this. And they work. Throughput is limited to the interface, but they work.
I'm sorry about you previous Quantum (Maxtor) Atlas 10K drive, I love that model and currently use an Atlas 15K U320 (146GB) on my CSPPC bus -- the drive cost 32 USD used. You can find the Atlas series new, but I bought four 146GB 10K drives for $25 off *Bay two months ago. They are taking these old servers off-line and replacing them, so everything is going for pennies-on-the-dollar. If you want, I'll send you an Atlas 36GB 10k I have no use for, it has been formatted and partitioned on my Amy.
-
I also love the Quantum drives. I have a 146GB drive on my CSPPC myself. True SCSI drive sound as in the good'ol days. But for all other Amiga's I prefer another solution as these drives are noisy and create a lot of heat. In the tower it's OK, but in an A3/4000D it's too much for me now.
I have best experiences with regular laptop SATA drives in the Acard. I'll check the drives I used in the next days... need to get my 3000D out of the storage plastic as I only use my 3000T and 4000D for playing and UltimatePPC development...
-
@Danbeaver
Thanks for the generous offer. I'm going to see if I can get an ssd solution working first. If I want I'll take the drive. Again thanks...
@Mousehouse
Do you remember if the drives that didnt work came up on a scsi inquiry?
Thank you for you efforts. I really appreciate the help.
Good luck with your ultimate ppc project.
-
Update:
Put Acard w/ssd in Peg II via LSI PCI Card. I was recognized instantly, I selected RDB and installed PFS 3 Direct SCSI.
It was now readable on my stock 3000 via Amiga SCSI.
My Warp Engine still can't see it. I wonder if the NCR scsi is the issue? I will try a new cable just to make sure, but other devices on that ribbon cable have worked just fine...
Will keep you posted...
Seem like a RDB has to be setup first, not sure why that would effect a scsi inquiry but at this point not sure it matters...
-
If the drive was either meant for or used in a server there can be a big issue with them (usually IBM & FUJI drives). It is hard to explain, but there is a post under Classic Amigas on the Hyperion forum site about hard to clear/rewrite RBDs. With some good searching there were posted a few suggestions, one of which is called, "KillRDB." it worked well for me. A new SSD ought not to have this problem.
Oh, there is no speed difference on my CSPPC bus between a CF card rated X233 and X600. There is a big cost difference.
-
ssd detection issues are known to me. i have two ssds i use on amigas. one, a 2,5 inch piese works only on usb behind deneb, the other i use on cybppc device behind an accard adapter, on internal ide it doesnt show up. both pata devices.
-
Would you please mention the Brand and model name of the SSD? That way we will be able to collect a list of working SSD's and how they work. I have a very compliant OCZ 120GB but will have to search for model
-
Update:
The SSD is recognized with my stock 3000 with BB4 with the scsi.device 43.45.
HDToolBox sees it perfectly, but will not install with a error is description 4 message.
HDToolInst that came with PFS3 let's me partition and load a RDB on to it, all perfectly. Upon reboot it loses the setting and the RDB and it's like starting over.
It's progress with it being recognized, but still not there yet...
Any ideas???
-
Yes, the Hard Disk Media Toolbox that comes with OS 4.1 is the most complete Program for dealing with hard drives I have ever used, on and off the Amiga, especially with its "Expert" mode. Find someone who can give it a try with your SSD.
If someone starts a new Thread with what SSD's work on what controllers: OCZ Vertex III, 120GB, VTX3-25SAT3-120G on A4000T IDE, NCR_SCSI + ACard 7720+IDE->SATA, CSPPS + ACard 7720+IDE->SAT, and A2000 GVP Series II + ACard 7720+IDE->SAT.
-
You got me thinking Dan, I will format and configure in my Peg II since MOS 3 support pfs, perhaps that will be the best route. Or maybe SFS, don't know if it's MOS SFS and PFS is compatible with AOS 3.x...
Should I use the Mask settings for Amiga SCSI on the LSI in the Peg II?
-
Mask settings only matter if you have a choice of Chip vs Fast ram in very old systems. For the most part, it doesn't matter. Use the default
-
Thanks for all the help guys.
I was able to get it to work just fine on the 3000 scsi. Mech was right that the cable lengths and proper term was critical. She works just fine, smooth and fine.
Unfortunately the warp engine flat out refuses to see it. So the acard must not like the ncr scsi. Shame really...
Mousehouse: Did you ever get a chance to test your acard with your warp engine?
-
Final update:
Tried a different 68 to 50 adapter (with proper termination) and it still will not work in the Warp Engine. So the Acard is NOT compatible with the Warp Engine SCSI. Don't waste your time if you buy the Acard trying to fiddle with it to work in the Warp Engine.
Again thanks to Mech, I will visit your store in payback once I sell my Peg II.