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Amiga computer related discussion => Amiga Hardware Issues and discussion => Topic started by: freqmax on August 24, 2012, 05:40:23 PM
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Do there exist any expansion for Amiga that makes it possible to make use of graphics cards with AGP bus connection ..?
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Do there exist any expansion for Amiga that makes it possible to make use of graphics cards with AGP bus connection ..?
No.
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Any AGP expansion bus for any card at all?
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The Elbox Dragon 1200 has an AGP port and exists. Unfortunately it was only ever demoed and never made it onto sale. Likely due to problems with compatibility and performance of 68k software on the Coldfire.
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Outside of the SAM boards, there's no point in even having AGP, because there's no way an Amiga CPU would even come close to using AGP levels of bandwidth.
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No. The Amiga is too old and AGP is not supported. The closest is the "PCI" video slot on the Phase 5 accelerators for CyberVision video card. For less cost and more availability, plus extra coolness, a Mediator board with VooDoo 3 3000 or Radeon 92x0 is fast and pretty, adding support for other PCI options USB, NIC, Sound cards etc
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AGP is quite close to PCI from the system software side it's actually the same asfair. nyway the point is to use the card, not the bandwidth.
It's the same idea behind 8-bit MCU:s that have Ethernet connection at 10 or 100 Mbit/s.
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You can get PCI versions of most any AGP card, though. I've even gotten PCI versions of PCI express graphics cards.
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You can get PCI versions of most any AGP card, though. I've even gotten PCI versions of PCI express graphics cards.
But how many work with the Amiga?
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The "PCI" slot for the CyberVision has direct access to the CPU and RAM, making it potentially very fast for things like RAM cards, SATA cards and the like; it is not limited to 2/4 GB as is the Amiga side
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But how many work with the Amiga?
That's a good question, but that's a software issue, not a hardware one. An AGP slot would just add a whole new slew of cards that aren't supported, and allow supported cards to be accessed faster than the CPU actually can manage...
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With AGP cards becoming more and more difficult to source (at least new ones in the wholesale chain,) it'd be a waste of time trying to develop. The next useful expansion would be PCIe (PCI Express.)
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With AGP cards becoming more and more difficult to source (at least new ones in the wholesale chain,) it'd be a waste of time trying to develop. The next useful expansion would be PCIe (PCI Express.)
Unlikely as Elbox won't even support their current hardware.
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@LoadWB, You'r right but I were curious if such expansion ever was made in larger quantities.
PCI-e is proberbly the next target. But I suspect FPGA Amigas will be the thing when the real hardware will "die".
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Individual computers has also made Zorro to PCI bridge.
X-Surf cad has a PCI card to connected Zorro to PCI brige. Would be nice to know would it be possible to use it with other PCI cards
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Individual computers has also made Zorro to PCI bridge. X-Surf card has a PCI card to connected Zorro to PCI brige. Would be nice to know would it be possible to use it with other PCI cards
That is not a "bridge" any more so then the Domino Graphics card has a bridge; it is a specialty slot meant to handle one specific card. Any other PC type cards won't work (and they were tried in both cards). One needs specific complex logic as in the Mediator. Ergo, it is possible, but as noted before, AGP is too fast for a Classic Amiga to really keep up, the PCI standard handles more than just video (in the case of OS 4.1, the developers not only wrote their own code for the supported cards, but wrote code to support the ESS-1 Solo sond card and the sii3112/4ide SATA cards). Elbox does not support these two
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Individual computers has also made Zorro to PCI bridge.
X-Surf cad has a PCI card to connected Zorro to PCI brige. Would be nice to know would it be possible to use it with other PCI cards
X-Surf uses an ISA bus card, not a PCI card. Big difference.
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Yes but 10Mbps is still 10Mbps despite the slot type: ISA, PCI, ZORRO II, or USB.
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Individual computers has also made Zorro to PCI bridge.
X-Surf cad has a PCI card to connected Zorro to PCI brige. Would be nice to know would it be possible to use it with other PCI cards
The X-Surf NIC is ISA not PCI
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Do there exist any expansion for Amiga that makes it possible to make use of graphics cards with AGP bus connection ..?
No but the UltimatePPC card that is in development for the A3000 A4000 will have a lot of integrated peripherals onboard, graphics, sound, ethernet, USB etc, all of which should easily outperform any PCI or AGP cards running across the Zorro bus.
http://ultimateppc.nl/
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No but the UltimatePPC card that is in development for the A3000 A4000 will have a lot of integrated peripherals onboard, graphics, sound, ethernet, USB etc, all of which should easily outperform any PCI or AGP cards running across the Zorro bus.
http://ultimateppc.nl/
:eek: Holy cow. Hadn't seen this before.
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Do there exist any expansion for Amiga that makes it possible to make use of graphics cards with AGP bus connection ..?
Not needed since AGP bus is just gfx card.
Pegasos PPC boards use it.
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The proof will be in the pudding (and supporting software drivers) for the UltimatePPC
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Not needed since AGP bus is just gfx card.
There are some special cards that (ab)use the AGP bus for other applications than graphics.
Pegasos PPC boards use it.
There's some comments that the AGP isn't real or useless AGP 1x.
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There are some special cards that (ab)use the AGP bus for other applications than graphics.
There's some comments that the AGP isn't real or useless AGP 1x.
There is no "real" AGP bus on Pegasos 2 but it has AGP connector so you can use AGP cards on it. While it is just AGP 1x bus it is faster and more reliable than AGP 2x bus in Pegasos 1 or AmigaOne.
Efika has similar AGP implementation since there is no real AGP bus either but you can user either PCI or AGP cards on it.
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There is no "real" AGP bus on Pegasos 2 but it has AGP connector so you can use AGP cards on it. While it is just AGP 1x bus it is faster and more reliable than AGP 2x bus in Pegasos 1 or AmigaOne.
Efika has similar AGP implementation since there is no real AGP bus either but you can user either PCI or AGP cards on it.
Fuctionally you can stick and AGP card that will work slower.
However, AGP bus is complete history, like ISA.
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I'm afraid the Amiga is considered to be "complete history."
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Outside of the SAM boards, there's no point in even having AGP, because there's no way an Amiga CPU would even come close to using AGP levels of bandwidth.
No AGP on my SAM or on any other one I've ever owned, used or seen.
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No AGP on my SAM or on any other one I've ever owned, used or seen.
Actually, I meant that the SAM boards are the only ones with enough processor horsepower to potentially benefit from AGP, not that they had it. (And even that's a definite "maybe.")
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If the market place mainly provide expansion cards using AGP. That's what goes into a design. Same with PCI, there's many embedded designs that have no use for even a small part of the capabilities found in PCI, but the marketplace dictate PCI as the common denominator. PCI-express is the interface of choice right now but it's a pain in regard to timing and RF design of circuit boards so I hope PCI card remain abundant.
USB has in essence replaced ISA ;) (both are crap!)
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Why is USB crap?
And ISA served its purpose and is just replaced by better standards.
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USB didn't replace ISA, PCI did. USB replaced the parallel and serial ports for connecting external peripherals, though in some cases it did alleviate the need for a separate controller card.
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USB has in essence replaced ISA ;) (both are crap!)
Is USB crap? I would say not. It has limitations, but most of things I disliked about USB 1.x and 2.0 have been corrected with USB3. As well, a big part of my problems with USB were/are related to shytty drivers.
ISA < EISA < VLB < PCI < PCI-X < PCIe, and whatever else will come along. I didn't include off-shoots like MCA and such ilk. It's been pretty neat to watch things progress over time. The story is that Intel intentionally crippled AGP, and if true it would be a great example of the industry manipulating itself for planned obsolescence.
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USB has in essence replaced ISA ;) (both are crap!)
Folks, "I" didn't say they were crap; "I" feel they were evolutionary changes. The S-100 begat the ISA and morse code begat the serial interface. "I" consider the USB essential to inexpensive connectivity in this and only this current market. There WILL be another paradigm shift ("I'd" like it to use fiber optic). "I" don't condemn the technology I use; I just complain about the lack of support -- tried to buy a USB card supported in OS 4.1 lately -- and the unreasonable cost ($90 for an NEC USB card costing $5 to use in a Mediator?).
Oh, as far as stupid corporate decisions, y'all remember IBM's microchannnel 32-bit bus for the PS/2 line of computers? Remember it was sold connected to a 386SX CPU with a 16-bit data bus?
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Folks, "I" didn't say they were crap; "I" feel they were evolutionary changes. The S-100 begat the ISA and morse code begat the serial interface. "I" consider the USB essential to inexpensive connectivity in this and only this current market. There WILL be another paradigm shift ("I'd" like it to use fiber optic). "I" don't condemn the technology I use; I just complain about the lack of support -- tried to buy a USB card supported in OS 4.1 lately -- and the unreasonable cost ($90 for an NEC USB card costing $5 to use in a Mediator?).
Oh, as far as stupid corporate decisions, y'all remember IBM's microchannnel 32-bit bus for the PS/2 line of computers? Remember it was sold connected to a 386SX CPU with a 16-bit data bus?
Yeah, that's the MCA I mentioned. Niche, proprietary buss. I actually had an MCA parallel port for a while I tried to offload on someone. Surprisingly, no takers.
And I blame you for my mis-quote :whack: I missed the ramble to which your post referred but did not quote, so all I saw was you asking why USB is crap. By this I perceived you as making a declarative in the form of an interrogative. I have fixed this in my original. Sorry for the screw up.
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Thank you
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I'm afraid the Amiga is considered to be "complete history."
NO, there are developing OSs and hardware for them.
Maybe Commodore is.
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In the context that you describe the AGP "complete history," many non-enthusiasts would say the same of the Amiga. "Windows" supports AGP in version 7 and 8 and they are still being made and for sale in normal computer stores such as, NewEgg and TigerDirect. The NG Amigas are sold "hobby" quantities, and the OS support is in the hands of just a few individuals working for a small company based in Belgium.
I bought my first Amiga in 1986 ( having saved up enough after grad school) and have been an active user/consumer until the present. I have my grandparent's 1938 Philco radio that I re-wired and re-populated with vacuum tubes so it works as well. To me nothing is "complete history" as long as it is useful.
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USB is crap because:
* Uses polling rather than letting devices tell when service is needed
* Half-duplex with associated latency, superpositioning wave amplitude, speed and predictibility problems etc
* Use of single ended signaling for out of band signaling
* Hierarcical structure enforced, more complicated than a bus option
* Single master (OTG is patchwork)
* Limited to 127 units
* Insufficient power 2,5 W (vs 45 W for firewire) which makes 3G dongles etc out of specification
* Lacks galvanic isolation with signal transformers, like Ethernet is designed
ISA was in essence replaced by USB because they are on the same performance level and both serves as "geekports". PCI (and MCA/Zorro) are something completely different with autoconfig, wide bus, thought through transfer phases etc.
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In the context that you describe the AGP "complete history," many non-enthusiasts would say the same of the Amiga. "Windows" supports AGP in version 7 and 8 and they are still being made and for sale in normal computer stores such as, NewEgg and TigerDirect. The NG Amigas are sold "hobby" quantities, and the OS support is in the hands of just a few individuals working for a small company based in Belgium.
I bought my first Amiga in 1986 ( having saved up enough after grad school) and have been an active user/consumer until the present. I have my grandparent's 1938 Philco radio that I re-wired and re-populated with vacuum tubes so it works as well. To me nothing is "complete history" as long as it is useful.
You are getting to have apples and bannas (frogs and grandmas in Serbian) mixed over here.
AGP is defacto dead, there are no new boards and cards, unlike with PCI bus (replaed by PCI-E x1 but not yet) as well as ISA bus.
Classic Amigas are dead because they are not produced since 1996 (with except of Minimig and FPGA board) and 68k OS ceased to develop with OS 3.9 (AROS 68k is backport for FPGA and Natami, Classics are kind of weak for it).
Off course, ISA, AGP cards and Classics are usable and avaliable to purchase for those who know how to use them.
USB criticism: Keyboards, mouses and other small devices don`t really need it and already had PS/2 and other standards.
Not as fast as Firewire, UW SCSI or SATA2 for data transfer (Bluetooth?) not enough power for serious devices
and mostly no plug and play as it was supposed to be.
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For me a technology is not "dead" if it is still useful; nothing is perfect when you seek out faults
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A technology is useful or not in a particular context.
As for USB, one could at least implemented some full duplex RS-422 or bus-like RS-485. Allowed multimaster operation. Allowed 12V with 1A at least. Implemented a bitrate of 100 kbit/s for easy MCU implementation. It's complicated to be too expensive, and crap enough to not be worthwhile. Look at Ethernet for how to do things.
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USB is crap because:
* Uses polling rather than letting devices tell when service is needed
* Half-duplex with associated latency, superpositioning wave amplitude, speed and predictibility problems etc
* Use of single ended signaling for out of band signaling
* Hierarcical structure enforced, more complicated than a bus option
* Single master (OTG is patchwork)
* Limited to 127 units
* Insufficient power 2,5 W (vs 45 W for firewire) which makes 3G dongles etc out of specification
* Lacks galvanic isolation with signal transformers, like Ethernet is designed
ISA was in essence replaced by USB because they are on the same performance level and both serves as "geekports". PCI (and MCA/Zorro) are something completely different with autoconfig, wide bus, thought through transfer phases etc.
LOL, just LOL.
Dudes, the best tech rarely wins, if it did, the Amiga would be thriving. What it reads as "on paper" means absolutely nothing to Joe Digicam.
My Mum doesn't give 2 ****s about the limits of 127 devices, voltages, or polling with USB. She wants to plug her camera into her computer, her printer to her Mac. It works, and that is all anyone cares about. Anyone that requires better solutions has been using something better suited for YEARS.
USB is ubiquitous, love it or hate it. Joe Printer can plug any device in via an easy to use cable without blowing crap up, and that is all that matters.
People that require higher performance have many other options.
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It were Intel that choosed the technical grounds not Joe Digicam. The cost for a better standard would have been less.
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LOL, just LOL.
Dudes, the best tech rarely wins, if it did, the Amiga would be thriving. What it reads as "on paper" means absolutely nothing to Joe Digicam.
My Mum doesn't give 2 ****s about the limits of 127 devices, voltages, or polling with USB. She wants to plug her camera into her computer, her printer to her Mac. It works, and that is all anyone cares about. Anyone that requires better solutions has been using something better suited for YEARS.
USB is ubiquitous, love it or hate it. Joe Printer can plug any device in via an easy to use cable without blowing crap up, and that is all that matters.
People that require higher performance have many other options.
+1
ABSOLUTELY
USB is NOT crap.. that is a ridiculous statement.. Is it the ultimate in speed? No But absolutely NOTHING compares to the ease of use and functional plug and play that it does provide.. To connect just about any peripheral on the market with no hassles? USB.. If you need anything faster then use the Firewire connector mounted right next to it... But don't beat up USB and call it names... That is just silly..
As for the Speed of USB, how old is the original spec? Of COURSE it is slow.. and that is why there are revisions to that spec of 2.0 and now 3.0... USB was a sound choice with a serviceable lifespan of updates to follow...
Used properly and with a little bit of forethought USB is a simple, usable catch-all port especially when you don't need blazing speeds..
One of the things folks forget is that when SUPPORTING a particular platform you have to take the TIME and it's associated costs into mind when making decisions on new technology. USB and it's spec updates is probably respopnsible for saving more support time and therefore money due to ease of use than any other single technology in use today. (That may be a bit of a stretch, but not MUCH of a stretch)
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Doesn't matter if they chose the lesser, inferior technology - it's ubiquitous, commonplace and easy to use.
SCSI was superior to IDE, and IDE still won out in the long haul. Joe Lunchpail found SCSI ID's and terminators confusing compared to a simple master/slave jumper.
In the world of commodity devices, the best solution rarely wins out. The common man uses what works, the power users have more suitable options.
I'm no fan of the slow speeds of USB, but I've never had a lick of problems with USB devices, even on my Amiga systems.
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OK, some of us believe that a still useful technology is not "dead," and others who disagree with its implimentation consider it to be "dead" and "crap."
Wouldn't be wonderful if everything in the world could be seen in terms of binary? 0/1, Black/White, On/Off, Up/Down, agree/disagree, et cetera.
Hop up on your "Soap Box" and shout at the world; you never know, someone might vote you into office.
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Absolutely nothing wrong in the least with other tech that isn't necessarily "the mainstream". If it works, use it - but let's not discount the ubiquitous standards as "bad". USB has served billions of people for 18 years very, very well - if it was inherently crappy, it would have went the way of the dodo long ago.
Hell, I own a '32 Ford. I love it to death, for what it is - but at the end of the day, if I have a 2000 mile roadtrip to go on, it's my SUV I'll be driving, not the '32 Ford :)
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No pun intended, but is your Ford a "Deuce coupe?" I love that grill.
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Intel x86 the best **** under the sun .. ;)
Don't pay attention to the marketing man behind the curtain.
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I thought the "man behind the curtain" was "The Wizard of Oz." Or was that just another Carny with a ballon?