Amiga.org
Amiga computer related discussion => General chat about Amiga topics => Topic started by: sim085 on August 16, 2012, 10:01:36 AM
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When playing a game I always thought of extra stuff I would have wanted in the game. A prime example of this is Colonization where I always wondered - like many others - why the Portuguese and other nations where not added (memory concerns?), or the lack of some type of unit, etc., etc., etc..
Therefore I was wondering, is there a time by which software automatically becomes free, and one is allowed to de-compile, fix, compile and distribute (free of course)? Would this be feasible?
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Typically, a copyright will expire a long, long time after the author is dead - between 70 and 120 years in the US, I think (we've mainly got Disney to thank for that one...). So, unless the copyright holder implicitly states that the work is placed in the public domain, theres pretty much nothing you can do.
Copyright law sucks. It's certainly not adapted to the advancements in technology. And the copyright holders of old computer games generally do not seem to be interested in sharing the old games, even though they are clearly not available for purchase anywhere.
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It's certainly not adapted to the advancements in technology. And the copyright holders of old computer games generally do not seem to be interested in sharing the old games, even though they are clearly not available for purchase anywhere.
If games automatically became free after a limited amount of time, then alot of people would just wait.
It has adapted to changes in technology, unfortunately not the way you would like. Disney has pushed for longer and longer copyrights purely because of VHS/DVD/bluray coming into peoples homes. When they first started they only had cinemas to worry about, who would have trouble making money showing old films. But spread out among the population there are enough people prepared to pay for old stuff if they have to, that it becomes worthwhile & they want that protected.
As for translations, there are plenty of translated roms going about & nothing bad seems to happen to those that do it.
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I guess it's much like ordinary people keeping something in the attic thinking it might be valuable later.
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When playing a game I always thought of extra stuff I would have wanted in the game. A prime example of this is Colonization where I always wondered - like many others - why the Portuguese and other nations where not added (memory concerns?), or the lack of some type of unit, etc., etc., etc..
Therefore I was wondering, is there a time by which software automatically becomes free, and one is allowed to de-compile, fix, compile and distribute (free of course)? Would this be feasible?
I think this page describes abandonware pretty good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware
"Definitions of "abandoned" vary; generally it refers to a product that is no longer available for legal purchase, over the age where the product creator feels an obligation to continue to support it, or where operating systems or hardware platforms have evolved to such a degree that the creator feels continued support cannot be financially justified. Software companies and manufacturers may change their names, go bankrupt, enter into mergers, or cease to exist for a variety of reasons. When this happens, product rights are usually transferred to another company that may elect not to sell or support products acquired.
In most cases, software classed as abandonware is not in the public domain, as it has never had its original copyright revoked and some company or individual still owns exclusive rights. Therefore, sharing of such software is usually considered copyright infringement, though in practice copyright holders rarely enforce their abandonware copyrights."
Bottom line: there are no rules, no laws, that defines when software becomes "abandonware", since this is not something that exists in a legal context. It's more of a "de facto" thing; when copyright holders no longer cares one bit about the product, and when they would no longer bother to enforce their copyright (that strictly legally speaking applies for a very long time, as others already said above), then you are in practice free to do what you want with it.
As for Amiga games and applications (as in *real* Amiga, SW made for the 68k machines of the 80's and 90's that has been gone for almost two whole decades now); I think it's safe to consider 99.9% of it abandonware. That's how these large online ADF collections can exist, containing almost every game and applications ever made for Amiga; the SW (and the whole platform for that matter) has been dead for so long now, that in practice, nobody (as in copyright holders, the legit IP owners) cares one bit about it anymore in a strictly legal context, it's abandoned! Hence no real moral obstacles exists either, although the latter may vary a great deal on an individual level (as I think you may be about to find out in this very thread, if it continues long enough); if I'd put a link here to a downloadable set of ADF's for Deluxe Paint 5 (which I could easily do, since I actually have it in front of me on my screen as I write this), then I could (almost) bet you a hundred dollars that at least some dude would cry "PIRACY!1!" quite loud, since in some people's mind, everything Amiga is sacred and can never be "abandoned", since if we would get away with labeling Amiga SW as "abandonware", it would at the same time mean that we label the Amiga as dead, and that is a big "don't compute" for some Amigans, despite it has been so in practice for almost two full decades now. :lol:
So I'd say that you are perfectly safe do do what you say you want to do. As long as you get away with it! ;) :lol: See my point?
Another way would of course to develop a *patch* for the game, that changes the original in the way you want, adding your own contents, etc, and distribute that patch instead (and let others distribute the ADF's)! :)
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It's more of a "de facto" thing; when copyright holders no longer cares one bit about the product, and when they would no longer bother to enforce their copyright (that strictly legally speaking applies for a very long time, as others already said above), then you are in practice free to do what you want with it.
As with any law, if you don't get caught then you are in practise free to do it. Laws are there to stop law abiding citizens, not to stop criminals.
The abandonware page on wikipedia is a little delusional & is just trying to justify it. If you accept that what you're doing is wrong then you're more likely to get away with it, because you'll be more careful.
i.e. if you buy into the abandonware idea then you will believe you have every right to sell it.
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Illegal is not the same as wrong.
If games automatically became free after a limited amount of time, then alot of people would just wait.
You actually think people would wait decades to play games just to save money?
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Illegal is not the same as wrong.
You actually think people would wait decades to play games just to save money?
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If games automatically became free after a limited amount of time, then alot of people would just wait
Yeah I would love to wait 50-70 years for free software ^^
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As with any law, if you don't get caught then you are in practise free to do it. Laws are there to stop law abiding citizens, not to stop criminals.
"Crime", "Criminals"? :lol: Look, copyright laws are here to help IP holders enforcing their rights, nothing more, nothing less! Only the IP owners can file a law suit if they feel that there has been some infringement (they are the only ones who cares), which they can choose to do, or choose *not* to do, it's *their* call, not "society's". If they don't want to do that, or simply don't care anymore, then there is no problem to the society whatsoever! No "crime" :lol:! When it comes to "abandonware" it's purely a philosophical discussion about moral, at best, and when we are talking about ~20 years old SW that not even the owners cares about (or indeed even *remembers* today), then even bothering to have a discussion about moral is a bit redundant...
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The only crime would be selling that abandonware for profit. If someone's willing to pay for it, then the money should go to the creator or rights holder.
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The only crime would be selling that abandonware for profit.
In a moral sense perhaps, but as long as the IP holder doesn't consider it to be a crime, neither does the society. "Ugliness" aside...
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Yes. It's called time for stealing.
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Yes. It's called time for stealing.
Just to be clear, the idea is not to profit but rather just to improve over the original - if such a thing is possible.
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I think this page describes abandonware pretty good:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abandonware
"Definitions of "abandoned" vary; generally it refers to a product that is no longer available for legal purchase, over the age where the product creator feels an obligation to continue to support it, or where operating systems or hardware platforms have evolved to such a degree that the creator feels continued support cannot be financially justified. Software companies and manufacturers may change their names, go bankrupt, enter into mergers, or cease to exist for a variety of reasons. When this happens, product rights are usually transferred to another company that may elect not to sell or support products acquired.
"Abandonware" is a term created with no legal basis so it's not recognized by the courts. It's illegal to trade in it, it's a question if you will get caught and if there will be anyone that will seek a penalty.
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it's a question if you will get caught and if there will be anyone that will seek a penalty.
The official CUSA blueprint ;)
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Berne convention says 50 years, so in most of the world it would be 50 years after publishing, the EU and US add years to this, but I'm not sure how many, here in Australia it's simply 50 years.
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When playing a game I always thought of extra stuff I would have wanted in the game. A prime example of this is Colonization where I always wondered - like many others - why the Portuguese and other nations where not added (memory concerns?), or the lack of some type of unit, etc., etc., etc..
Therefore I was wondering, is there a time by which software automatically becomes free, and one is allowed to de-compile, fix, compile and distribute (free of course)? Would this be feasible?
This is more feasible: http://www.freecol.org/
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If games automatically became free after a limited amount of time, then alot of people would just wait.
Well, in the case of computer games, would people wait ten years? Fifteen? I doubt it. Besides, with the rampant piracy, most people who don't want to pay, don't have to wait at all. I'm talking about what's basically abandonware here.
While perhaps not the case for computer games, I also feel that it's strange that the copyright holder can earn money from something another person, who long since passed away, produced.
The alleged author of the song "Happy birthday to you", with the current lyrics, passed away in 1938. Up until the rights were sold in 1998, a company with the sole purpose of collecting royalties for this song existed and was quite profitable. Currently the song is earning Warner Bros. $5000 per day. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Birthday_to_You#Copyright_status)
To me, this is beyond madness.
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For the purposes outlined in the OP, you don't need to wait any amount of time to reverse engineer the software and release your own mods, so long as you don't distribute the original software with it.
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Yes. It's called time for stealing.
"Stealing?" But nothing is taken, nothing is lost, not to anyone. It's not like shoplifting a DVD player from a store. When it comes to digital/"virtual" IP (not existing in a physical shape) such as SW, movies and music, the only thing that can be lost is a potential sale, and if no potential sale could be there anyway, then not even that is lost, so you are perfectly clear from a moral point of view. And when the legal IP holder doesn't care either, then you are perfectly clear from a legal point of view as well. It's not a "crime" (:lol:) until the IP owner says it is by filing a law suit on you. It's not like the society cares per se, that's not how copyright laws work — they are there to help an IP owner to enforce their legal rights (if they *want to*, which is entirely up to them, and nobody else), nothing more, nothing less. If the property owner doesn't care, then society won't care either, since no harm is done. It's not like if someone goes rampage down the avenue beating up senior citizens, or is drunk-driving around the kindergarten. Those things are illegal.
"Abandonware" is a term created with no legal basis so it's not recognized by the courts.
Of course not, did anyone claim so? Rather the opposite I think, yes...?
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I did a quick search on the net and found the following;
http://www.discreetfx.com/Care/faq.htm
Seems the idea of de-compiling and improve upon is not such a mad idea after all.
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After ten years with no sale, who gives a crap?
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One of the big problems that a lot of people have when talking about law is the lack of understanding about what law actually is.
In the UK we have lots of different types of law like so:
Natural Law: You can't break natural law as it is the physical law of reality therefore no one needs to uphold it.
Common Law: Common law basically states that you may not cause "Harm or Loss" to another. Upheld by officers of the law.
The Magna Carta: The main document in UK law to make sure Mr. Average doesn't get shafted by the royal family or those working under the purview of the royal family (eg. the Government). Upheld by officers of the law.
Statutory Law: The contract made by the "legal identity" of a natural man or woman with the company of "UK PLC". Upheld by company policy officers ( or Police officers as we call them).
Now the first thing to consider is that infringement of copyright is illegal, it is not however unlawful. This is because Copyright law is statutory law and infringement of copyright causes no loss or harm. Loss of monies is not considered as a loss, as money itself is a fiction (just as a legal identity is a fiction) due to only being created under statutory law. If the money was backed 100% by real goods (eg. gold) this would be a different matter, but it is not.
In effect this means that Joe of the family of Bloggs cannot commit this illegal act (he is a natural man and not bound by statute) but Mr. Joe Bloggs (the legal identity of Joe of the family of Bloggs) can commit this illegal act.
Mr. Joe Bloggs (the legal identity) was created when the legal identities of the parents of Joe of the family of Bloggs informed on him by registering his birth. This is of course an unlawful contract as Joe was not an adult at the time and did not agree to the creation of his legal identity.
Now if a Policeman (a policy officer) came to arrest Joe for said infringement Joe must be very careful. If he gives the policy officer his legal identity as a name or admits to his legal identity in any other way he will be in trouble. If the Policeman says "Do you understand" and Joe says "yes" he is also in trouble as in legal terminology he has just agreed to " stand under", ie. "be bound by" statute.
If Joe instead gives his name as Joe of the family of Bloggs and never agrees to stand under statute he is a free man. To be sure of his freedom he should write a letter to the queen declaring "Lawful Rebellion" under section 61 of the Magna Carta disavowing himself from the unlawful legal identity created for him.
He will also then not be required to pay tax, nor will he be entitled to state benefits however, and there are many other implications too. Note that if you have entered a lawful contract you are still bound by it. If you buy a piece of software and agree to the EULA you are still bound by it. Note also that if you declare lawful rebellion you are no longer protected by limited liability. So if you do something unlawful you will probably get a longer sentence.
The situation is very similar in other countries.
In the US you have a constitution. In theory the constitution is "LAW". Sadly this constitution has been eroded to the point of the ridiculous. I will leave the US citizens among you to research this yourselves, you will be horrified at just how little of your rights still exist, and just like us in the UK, it was your legal identities that agreed to it.
If you wish to research what it means to be "free" perhaps you should, it's not as easy or as black and white as some would have you believe though so be careful not to act on questionable advice and please take all I have written above as very much over-simplified, because it is. I don't feel like writing a 200 page essay today.
As an example of just how grey this can all get consider this. In Joe's case the copyright holder claims that the loss of monies resulted in a real loss of food as that is what he would have spent the cash on. Now the situation IS a case of law rather than statute as real loss is involved. See what I mean? More shades of grey than a box of artists pencils.
If it wasn't this way we wouldn't be paying lawyers so much.
As for the original question, there is no harm in adding mods or pokes to a game and/or distributing them providing you don't distribute the copyrighted code itself. Have you ever heard of anyone getting arrested for an unofficial patch?
So don't wait for them to become free, get coding!
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The easier solution is to do what some retrogame coders and tabletop gamers have done. Let's say you want to make an improved Alien Breed.
Well, change the title a bit "Alien Spawn", and then make a game that more or less just happens to work the same way.
As far as abandonware, it doesn't exist as a legal concept. However, with companies that don't exist anymore, the effective, actual risk is basically zero.
Heck, music piracy is actively being pursued and the amount of people who get threatened compared to the amount of songs downloaded is so low that even grandmothers get in on the action.
Also, theft isn't copyright infringement. Ironically stealing a bunch of real stuff in a store is generally punished far less than sharing some imaginary computer data.
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After ten years with no sale, who gives a crap?
The internet lawyer brigade!
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@ Tripitaka:
Brilliant! :D
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Just to be clear, the idea is not to profit but rather just to improve over the original - if such a thing is possible.
People have done that before even not using abandonware excuse by just distributing patches that patch an original file. A basic patching framework is already in whdload that you can use as a starting point.
greets,
Staf.
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Tripitaka's screed is well thought out and articulated. While I do agree that our country is on the slide to severely reduced rights and individual responsibility abdicated into the hands of an over-reaching federal government, I feel, however, that it grossly exaggerates individual sovereignty and sounds more like a sovereign citizen or anarchist manifesto, or a hard-core Ron Paul disciple.
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Tripitaka's screed is well thought out and articulated. While I do agree that our country is on the slide to severely reduced rights and individual responsibility abdicated into the hands of an over-reaching federal government, I feel, however, that it grossly exaggerates individual sovereignty and sounds more like a sovereign citizen or anarchist manifesto, or a hard-core Ron Paul disciple.
It just shows how our laws are written. It is still illegal in London to walk a pig the wrong way down a one-way street, beat your wife after dark and taxi cabs are supposed to carry hay to feed their horses. :)
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It just shows how our laws are written. It is still illegal in London to walk a pig the wrong way down a one-way street, beat your wife after dark and taxi cabs are supposed to carry hay to feed their horses. :)
Agreed with that point. We have a lot of useless laws in various states which are never taken off the books because they're of little importance and not enforced. Every once in a while you'll come across a story where one of these archaic laws are enforced and it causes a great stir. And rightly so, IMNSHO, as I believe these cases are often nothing more than political expedience. The judges are often in the position to throw out a case due to the lack of enforcements or hold true to the letter of the law, in both cases the results would be taken to appeal and eventually the state's supreme court. There's a lot of legal shenanigans involving state constitution and potential legislation which is a complex Pandora's box.
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Someone smarter than I once said you can tell a society's priorities by looking at what it punishes most strongly.
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Someone smarter than I once said you can tell a society's priorities by looking at what it punishes most strongly.
That sounds too broad to me. If it punishes in the forefront then, yes, it is a fairly good indication. Such as forcing a man to register as a sex offender for peeing off the side of a highway. Fortunately society is malleable and can face silly episodes like these and correct them. In terms of priorities, I would accept that premise in the context of a society which has more priority with dealing with pressing matters rather than spending time taking archaic laws off the books.
Although, I would be pretty happy if all our city and county commissions, state legislatures, and Congress would take a year off to purge laws. I wouldn't have to worry every day about what new stupid restriction I'll face when I awake.
I feel we've strayed a little off the topic.
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"Stealing?" But nothing is taken, nothing is lost, not to anyone. It's not like shoplifting a DVD player from a store. When it comes to digital/"virtual" IP (not existing in a physical shape) such as SW, movies and music, the only thing that can be lost is a potential sale, and if no potential sale could be there anyway, then not even that is lost, so you are perfectly clear from a moral point of view. And when the legal IP holder doesn't care either, then you are perfectly clear from a legal point of view as well. It's not a "crime" (:lol:) until the IP owner says it is by filing a law suit on you./QUOTE]
It depends on where you live as whether it's covered by criminal or civil law.
Making a copy of something deprives the copyright owner of the exclusive right to make copies. That right has a monetary value, which you devalue when you make any unauthorised copies. Even if the copyright owner is not currently exercising that right, it may in the future.
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No.
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a "crime" has happened when someone files a lawsuit. this is old technology, copy and or use what you want. You're being a dick if you're trying to sell it, but then that depends on what a true definition of a dick is...
much less people would've copied Amiga games if a) they were a little cheaper and 2) C= had given 2 ****s about their customers. True, piracy didn't help amiga in the grand scheme of things, but ironically it is the very reason that people still use it and have software for it. One could even make the argument that piracy kept the amiga around as long as it has been.
I have bought amigas and OS disks many times over, I'll copy what I want.
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The official CUSA blueprint ;)
True, some people and companies are real capitalist pirates.
On the topic: NO, author has to free it. Abandonware class abuses
the fact that in IT companies die quickly or merge, platforms change so no one would complain for having freely avail download of ZX Spectrum Renegade
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On the topic: NO, author has to free it. Abandonware class abuses
the fact that in IT companies die quickly or merge, platforms change so no one would complain for having freely avail download of ZX Spectrum Renegade
Abandonware is just people trying to legitimise copyright infringement. It's like saying that it's ok to shoot people because in America so many people get away with it that obviously nobody cares.
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Someone smarter than I once said you can tell a society's priorities by looking at what it punishes most strongly.
...true, and today, everyone's eyes are at Russia and Pussy Riot...
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It's like saying that it's ok to shoot people because in America so many people get away with it that obviously nobody cares.
Not at all! Shooting people is a *crime*, punishable by society/law.
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AFAIK I agree with most everything you have written. And I love all the intelligent comments posted by most of the other ppl in this thread. I see some of you guys have been doing your copyright monopoly homework. But...
As far as abandonware, it doesn't exist as a legal concept.
What you mean is, the word "abandonware" is not defined as a legal term in any standing laws right this second.
The word exists in the English language and has a definition that society more or less agrees on (as much as with any other word).
The concept of abandonware does exist as a legal concept.
In every legal system I have studied so far, in every nation, every state, every province, every county, every city, every town has many different laws that state that if you abandon your property it is no longer your property. Abandoned property can and will be legally stolen from you.
I did not write the abandonment laws. Some of them I agree with and some I do not agree with.
I am just saying that claiming that abandoned property law doesn't exist as a legal concept is a logical fallacy.
Every kind of property that you can own can and will be taken from you (and its all legal) if you abandon it.
In some situations it is legal for any random person to sieze your abandoned property. In other cases only the police can do it. In other cases only a judge can order your property revoked from you. It can get very technical since there are a zillion different abandoned property laws and they are each written slightly differently.
The general concept that has operated for centuries in our society is that any person who abandons their property loses their property rights. The only thing to debate is how long must the property be abandoned before it can be legally stolen from you.
Some laws are clearly written with clear time limits. Some say "Immediately" and if you have bad luck that could mean 60 seconds. Though normally you would have around 30 mins. Other laws say "5 minutes". Other laws say "15 minutes" or "30 minutes". Some laws say "1 year".
AFAIK there are no laws that say how long software must be abandoned before the copyright monopoly is lost. Though I would not be surprised if there was one somewhere. It would just take a lot of work to find it.
Just to be clear, abandoned real property can and will be stolen from you. In some cases you can get it back, in other cases you can't. It all varies according to the circumstances. But we are not talking about real property in this thread. We are discussing a copyright monopoly protection privilege granted by the government to certain persons or corporations. Some ppl refer to this as imaginary property or intellectual property or whatever term they use. We are not discussing stealing anyone's property when we talk about abandonware. We are only discussing when the copyright monopoly should end, due to abandonment of the work.
The main thing to debate is how long must software be abandoned to be considered abandonware. Going by what is written in this thread so far, 10 years is a reasonable amount of time as determined by the ppl of the Amiga society.
I would propose that 10 years would be considered reasonable by most ppl.
That is going by what I have read on many different forums written by hundreds of different ppl.
10 years is an incredibly generous amount of time compared to real property rights, which AFICT always expire after 1 year of abandonment or less.
I am not trying to push any particular amount of time. And I am happy to read any opinions that the time should be shorter or longer. By discussing it maybe we can a reach societal consensus.
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...true, and today, everyone's eyes are at Russia and Pussy Riot...
Yeah, the country took a hard turn towards the church after 91.
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Abandonware is just people trying to legitimise copyright infringement. It's like saying that it's ok to shoot people because in America so many people get away with it that obviously nobody cares.
You're right. It's obviously completely like that.
Downloading amiga games is the gateway to serial murder.
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You're right. It's obviously completely like that.
Downloading amiga games is the gateway to serial murder.
:laughing: :roflmao:
ur reply was much better and much funnier than the one I was going to write. Thanxorz m8ey!